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Published Date: 25 June 2009
WHEN your argument is weak, set up some straw men – they are easy to demolish. That's how George Foulkes last week tried to show that politicians cannot be held to account by proportional voting systems.
He wrote at length about the national party list voting system in Macedonia. He wrote even more about the hybrid additional member system we use to elect the Scottish Parliament, with its closed party lists.

But both of these are "straw men" in a
ny discussion about holding politicians to account. Neither delivers personal accountability, and only the ill-informed would claim they did. But George Foulkes is not ill- informed – his purpose is more devious.

He wants to defend the discredited first-past-the-post (FPTP) voting system we use to elect MPs to Westminster and makes the amazing claim that because we elect one MP from each geographically-defined constituency, we can in some way hold these MPs specially to account.

But the opposite is the truth. These single-member constituencies stop most of us from holding our political representatives properly to account.

There are undoubtedly many angry electors who want to enforce some electoral accountability on MPs over the expenses scandal, but if those angry electors are supporters of the same party as the sitting MP, the only way they can get rid of an unsatisfactory member is to vote against their preferred party.

That is surely a very perverse way of holding the MP to account.

The angry electors may well want rid of the MP, but they don't want to be forced to vote for one of the opposition parties.

How different it would be if those electors had a free choice among several candidates nominated by their preferred party. They could then still vote for their preferred party but make sure the unsatisfactory MP was not re-elected.

They would have achieved their objective and the sitting MP would have been made to pay for their actions. But they would have done it without having to inflict damage on the party they support.

That is exactly what the STV system of proportional representation would offer. We could perfectly well elect our mainland MPs from multi-member constituencies.

For example, the six Edinburgh MPs could all be elected together, from one Edinburgh constituency. In Westminster terms, they all represent a common geographical interest, so nothing would be lost by electing them together and a great deal would be gained.

The larger parties would all put up teams of candidates and there would be strong incentives for them to nominate at least one more candidate than the number of seats the polls suggested they might win.

So if your party has put up three candidates, and one of those three is a sitting MP you want out, with STV-PR you don't have to vote against your party. Instead, you vote "1" and "2" for the other two candidates nominated by your party, with the MP at "3". That way your party will get its fair share of the seats, but the unsatisfactory MP will be dumped.

And it doesn't stop there, because with STV-PR you can also mark your preferences for all the candidates of all the other parties. So you can help unseat their unsatisfactory MPs as well.

At first sight it may seem a paradox that electing several MPs together would increase their accountability to their local constituents. But that's the reality of giving the voters free choice among all the candidates through STV-PR.

That really would hold the politicians to account – no wonder some of them don't want it.

• Dr James Gilmour is a voting reform campaigner.





The full article contains 623 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 24 June 2009 7:00 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

25/06/2009 00:14:05
The closed list system as used in the Euro elections and for the additional members at Holyrood is less than Ideal.

Without it Foulkes' only link to the political food chain, would be as a half forgoten fossilised member of the House of Lards.
2

Padraig,

25/06/2009 00:38:12
To be frank, the only beneficiaries of proportional representation are the LibDems, who actually get some seats in government, local, Scottish or, worse, the UK parliament. The country loses the ability to form a meaningful government as horse-trading is needed for any initiative to succeed, it loses the ability to form a cohesive economic strategy in the maelstrom of horse-trading and deal-making and where the economy suffers, so does every man woman and child in the country because it is the economy that provides taxes and funding for all the benefts available to us.

For goodness sake, let's not indulge the LibDems in their fantasy of a resurgence in their place in politics - let's make them work to do something REALLY useful - like replacing the inept and corrupt Labour Party, in which so many otherwise unemployable politicians have made a comfortable career in Scotland for the last couple of generations.
3

Duke,

25/06/2009 00:49:12
Well if PR was in place at the last election, NuLiebour would not have got in.
4

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 25/06/2009 00:50:18
#2 Padraig,

I don't think you're right there Padraig. The Lib Dems do benefit but so do the Tories. If it wasn't for PR Scotland would have had a Labour Party despotism for the last ten years. The Lib Dems and Tories would have had very few seats and the SNP might not have done well at all. If we switched to a first past the post system now the SNP would probably be the main benificiaries. Odd, eh? Our voting system in Scotland was a fudge to try and keep the SNP out of government. Now that it hasn't worked, it's no surprise that George Foulkes wants to change it; however, if it now benefits the SNP more, would it not be a mistake to change it (if you're a Labour supporter)?
5

FrancesP,

25/06/2009 01:56:32
#2. Padraig, if the last Holyrood election had been held under first-past-the-post, not only would Labour have been the largest party, they would actually have won an absolute majority, despite being behind the SNP in the popular vote. Do you really think that would have reflected the will of the public?

Funnily enough, PR doesn't particularly benefit the Lib Dems at Holyrood - they hold roughly the same proportion of seats they would under FPTP. Admittedly, it would benefit them at Westminster.
6

Grahamski,

Falkirk 25/06/2009 07:32:57
The only winners in PR are political parties. Democracy and the people lose out. I believe in the concept of an area voting for a representative to represent them.
The political party of that representative is secondary. There is no PR system which does not favour the political elite. The closed lists of the Holyrood system are an affront to democracy.
A couple of examples; Linda Fabiani MSP stood in EK and was defeated. The electors in her constituency decided another should represent them. Did that stop Ms Fabiani? Of course not, for over a year she was a cabinet minister. Try explaining that one to the electors who rejected her.
Another example is Anne McLaughlin MSP who replaced the late Bashir Ahmad. Nobody voted for her, the SNP were free to select anyone they wanted to represent the voters of Glasgow. It is a travesty.
7

Grahamski,

Falkirk 25/06/2009 07:43:17
7
What's that got to do with anything? The current Labour leader is a list MSP, that doesn't it make it any more fair. PR is for the benefit of political parties not the people, it is a travsety of democracy.
8

McNasty,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 08:11:23
No matter what electoral system Labour comes up with it will not save their thick political skins.

At Westsinister Labour are pondering changing over to PR to save them from the coming massacre.

It would be odd to have FPTP in Scotland and PR in England. No matter how Labour try to rig an election nothing is going to save them now.
9

Grahamski,

Falkirk 25/06/2009 08:19:02
9.
"At Westsinister Labour are pondering changing over to PR to save them from the coming massacre."
Don't be ridiculous.
Do you seriously think that Labour are trying to introduce PR for the next election?
Really?
That's what you think?
...........wow
10

TWC,

exLabour 25/06/2009 08:21:46
Labour are out but we should change the voting system to prevent the situation we have today.
The majority of people want a GE but Brown is refusing to go.
This means they are voting themselves Better pensions, earning another years money and controlling the economy in the face of criticism from all sides now.
They haven't even plugged the regulation exposures.

We have a dictatorship.
11

Grahamski,

Falkirk 25/06/2009 08:38:46
11
My point isn't party political. I used the example of Ms Fabiani and Ms McLaughlin not because they were SNP but because their positions are so obviuosly unfair. I could have used the ludicrously over-inflated Greens who with no representative directly elected managed to hold the Executive to ransom and indeed scuppered the SNP budget. Hardly democratic to give two tree-huggers the power to decide whether the executive's budget should go through, is it.....
12

TWC,

exLabour 25/06/2009 08:50:17
13 Grahamski,
I don't believe that there will be a change to PR at Westminster (though I would like it), I think it is just talk and even if implemented it will be 2 elections away.
I wish they would just stop now though and call the GE, listening to the false words generated on all sides is painful.
There is little substance in the talk just noise.
13

Grahamski,

Falkirk 25/06/2009 09:04:11
14
TWC
I've absolutely no doubt you want an election now. Every opposition does.
There will be an election along within the year where we will be able to choose our representatives. Let's hope there is a large turn-out, eh?
14

Anthony,

Glasgow 25/06/2009 09:09:23
There's no such thing as the perfect electoral system. Our crude first past the post system though, was devised for a different era and is no longer fit for purpose. It is, let's face it, barely democratic.

It forces many people into negative voting - whereby they can't vote for who they really want, but rather vote for the lesser evil to keep out the greater evil, as they see it. It also makes it entirely possible for the party with the less votes to win power - and this has indeed happened. Yes, there is relative certainty, but at a huge price.

I think the best (not perfect) system is one based on the single transferable vote, keeping constituency links, but also seeking to minimise or do away with any list system - that makes parties too powerful.

Nor do I think we can analyse this in terms of being a good or bad thing from the perspective of how it affects individual parties - that's the tail wagging the dog.
15

Grahamski,

Falkirk 25/06/2009 09:14:13
16
Anthony,
You see voting entirely through the prism of the political party. Our Westminster democracy is based on a constituency electing one representative to represent them at Parliament.
At no time has that representative been elected and not gained a majority over their opponents.
They were ALWAYS the most popular within their constituency.
16

TWC,

exLabour 25/06/2009 09:20:24
15 Grahamski,

Agreed, it will be time for me to p€€ or get of the pot
17

Grahamski,

Falkirk 25/06/2009 09:24:29
18
I hope you decide to vote the right way!
18

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 25/06/2009 09:51:56
I believe that the electorate should be able to call a by-election under exceptional circumstances (eg. MP's changing parties mid-term, expenses and other dodgey financial dealing)! It would have to be made doifficult, but not impossible, so that we didn't have a new election every day. Perhaps if a certain percentage of an MP's disgruntled consituents signed a petition for a by-election, then the MP would have to stand down and either walk away or contest the by-election).
19

Doh,

25/06/2009 09:54:17


FPTP is disgrace that allows for majority government by a minority party.

No wonder we all the hate the government - it doesnt even get half the vote before it enters office - never mind the support it loses when in office.

Labour and the Tories would rather play buggins turn than face up to the radical reforms that would see them cut down to size and the people given a stronger voice.

I have no problem with weak governments - the SNP are doing okay in Scotland - and I doubt we would not have had the Poll Tax or ID cards with a PR parliament.

Government is there to serve the people not the other way around.
20

Grahamski,

Falkirk 25/06/2009 10:02:28
20

Luigiana,
"Perhaps if a certain percentage of an MP's disgruntled consituents signed a petition for a by-election, then the MP would have to stand down and either walk away or contest the by-election)."
If we did that then the losing political party could just keep inventing reasons to challenge the MP - we elect a representative to represent us at an election, political party membership is secondary.
21

Grahamski,

Falkirk 25/06/2009 10:03:59
21
FPTP delivers the most popular candidate per constituency and delivers a candidate who is personally responsible to that electorate. No other voting system allows this kind of intimate relationship between electors and representatives.
22

Anthony,

Glasgow 25/06/2009 10:28:53
17) Grahamski - Yes they may have a majority in their own constituency - but not nationally. And my point was, that even the majority obtained in the constituency isn't neceesarily a reflection of the true wishes of those voters - including even those voting for the party that wins that constitutency. Under FPTP many people feel compelled to vote negatively to keep out the greater evil. Labour and the Tories are loving it - neither enjoy support from anything other than a small minority of the population, yet FPTP has allowed them to stitch up government between them. This is profoundly unhealthy for any supposed democracy, and it has to change.
23

Grahamski,

Falkirk 25/06/2009 10:37:25
24
I understand your point and respect your views regarding party political representation. My point is that electors should vote for the candidate not the party. If the electorate wish to vote tactically by party then that is entirely up to them.
The basic point doesn't change: the most popular candidate represents the constituency. That is the bed-rock of our representative democracy. I am very sceptical indeed at the perceived increase in democracy which PR supposedly delivers. In reality it delivers a political system run by and for the political parties.
Look at the 2007 SNP Holyrood campaign which had all the SNP candidates not running for the SNP but as 'Vote For Alex Salmond' a stunningly cynical exercise in manipulation which was quite rightly condemned and banned in future. However it shows just how cynically the politcial parties will divorce their chosen MPs with the electorate that they should represent.
24

Doh,

25/06/2009 10:38:38
#23

FPTP ensures that many people have no say in the selection or representative and also cannot choose which elected representative they wish to approach.
If I had several MPs representing me I could choose the one I thought the least sleazy or prehaps the most informed on my issue to consult.

Instead I have to settle for the least unpopular candidate that is elected by the largest minority in the artificial "constituency" where I happen to live.

Take my local Labour MP.
He voted for the Iraq war, ID cards and PO closures.
And he uses his office for bonking.
He doesnt represent me.

I would rather choose another MP, even from another party or constituency, to represent my views or
handle any casework I migth have. But not him.

As well as limiting choice of representatives between elections - FPTP also delivers a majority government with a minority of votes. That leads to disillusionment with democracy.

Labour and the Tories dont mind disillusionment so long as they get their buggins turn.
25

Grahamski,

Falkirk 25/06/2009 10:57:45
26
"FPTP ensures that many people have no say in the selection or representative"
What do you mean no say? If you vote you have a say.
As regards PR being 'more democratic', the current SNP administration won the votes of less than 18% of the electorate. Of the hundred and thirty-ish MSPs, the SNP have only twenty-odd who were selected by the electors - more than half their MSPs were selected by the SNP party machine and were elected under the name of Vote For Alex Salmond. The Labour Party have a leader who is an MSP because the Labour Party chose him. The Greens have already shown how cynically a small and unrepresentative clique can behave if their egos aren't suitably massaged.
In short, PR may give the impression of being more representative but in reality it is anything but.
26

Deadpan,

25/06/2009 11:27:07
An example. Under FPTP a constituency of 50,000 voters has 4 candidates and they vote as follows:

Party A: 12,499
Party B: 12,500
Party C: 12,500
Party D: 12,501

Part D is duly elected despite 74.998% of the electorate opposing them. An extreme example but one that is reflected to lesser degrees throughout the UK. The argument that FPTP produces MPs with a majority of support is fallacious to say the least.

A second example. Same constituency, same result with a multimember 4 seat constituency. Each party gets one seat matching their support exactly. Again an extreme example but far more representative and massively more democratic.

The Additional Member system used at Holyrood is the worst of both worlds.
27

Doh,

25/06/2009 11:54:17
#27
Wow that was a terribel typo even by my low standards.

What I meant to say is FPTP means that all the people that didnt vote for the least unpopular candidate have no say who is elected.

If I were represented by a larger group of candidates then I would be more likely to have voted for one of them that was actually elected.

I guess there is not much point reasoning with you - since you seem to think that FPTP and democracy are the same thing. They are not.

However my main objections to FPTP are
1. majority government by minority parties
2. the majority of people dont get represented by someone that they actually voted for

Neither promote a sense of trust in our democracy because it is arbitary.

BTW I dont agree with your views about the Greens - although they overplayed their hand during the budget debate.

The same situation can arise under FPTP when "rebel" MPs dare to express their own opinion and vote against their whip.

For example if more Labour MPs had voted against the Iraq war then the government would have been brought down.
Result.

Meanwhile I am stuck with a sleazy liar of an MP - whom I didnt vote for - and have no alternate representative to turn to - becuase you say he has a unique and accountable relationship with his constituents. I dont think so.


You are right to point out that the SNP only got the support of 18% of the electorate - I guess that is why they are a minority government and not a majority government. Thanks for illustrating the benefits of PR.
28

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 25/06/2009 12:44:18
We must not have PR on a national basis. It must be applied (if it is applied) on a constituency basis. In this was people know who they are voting for, and they have a local, identifiable person(s) who they can hold accountable.

If it is applied on national basis like the South African system, you vote for a party and not an individual, and there is no local accountability. Once the election is over the winning party elite take over, and all the "elected" MPs are simply there to make up the numbers and have no function or accountability.
29

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 25/06/2009 12:46:59
#29
The labour Party only got about 30% of the vote at the last election and yet they formed a majority government - go figure. No complaints or comments from you about that??
30

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 25/06/2009 12:47:16
The Holyrood system is working well as people realised that it was a mechanism to maintain the status quo and that's what we DON'T WANT.

The civil service, taxation, revenues, are the scottish establishment shambles. The SNP took vigorous measures to improve matters that the "opposition" have baulked at every opportunity. They've (Lab, Lib, Tories, Greens) contributed nothing.

Some SNP policies were wrong and good constituency MSPs organised to vote against. It's how a parliament works. We need it working better!
31

Grahamski,

Falkirk 25/06/2009 13:43:07
29
Here's an idea, I'm not sure if it is totally daft but I think it might work.
If we continued with FPTP for constituency members but in parliament the party blocs had the national percentage of votes. So, for example just now although the Labour Party nationally had more MPs at parliament they would only have 30 odd percent of votes in that parliament. Does that make sense? Could it work?
32

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 25/06/2009 14:42:50
@33: Surprisingly, that's not totally stupid, though it's a bit hard to explain to people. Presumably each division would be calculated to result in a percentage vote, eg 55% Ayes, 45% Noes, regardless of how many MPs actually voted. Each individual MP's vote would count for a different "score" dependent on their party's national share.

Of course, you'd end up with the electorate getting angry because their MP's vote counted for less than some other MP's vote, but essentially it's a pretty good idea.

The current system is a cynical affront to democracy in which 98% of voters might as well not bother turning up at all, since the election is decided by about 100,000 people in swing constituencies, and almost anything is better than that. Except the Alternative Vote system proposed by Brown, of course.
33

BIG EYE,

Paisley 25/06/2009 16:23:49
Fascinating the converst to PR from the unionist parties now that the SNP are threatening to break through the threshold of the upper 30's where the FPTP system starts bringing amazing results in terms of seats for a few % more votes.

Quite right of course, it was perfectly fair for Scotland to be dominated for generations by a Labour Party which HAS NEVER commanded the majoriy of votes in Scotland but totally unacceptable to allow this to continue where it would be a disaster for Labour.

It is principles like this that have made Labour what they are today!
34

Grahamski,

Falkirk 25/06/2009 16:28:04
34
Presumably each division would be calculated to result in a percentage vote, eg 55% Ayes, 45% Noes, regardless of how many MPs actually voted.

Well that's one way of doing, alternately you could calculate how much an individual MP's vote is worth in relation to his or her party's vote nationally. So if it was working now in Parliament a Labour MP's vote might be worth something like 0.75 of a vote while a tory's is worth 1.25 etc.

I think this is the least unfair way - does it have a name?
35

Observer,,

Glasgow 25/06/2009 17:35:15
Maybe this system isn't perfect but it's sure as hell better than the one we had before. Only an anti-democrat would object to representation by the Greens, why should the people who voted for them be dienfranchised because they don't all live in the same place ?

36

Eve,

Scotland 25/06/2009 17:35:34
STV was defently fun back in the 2007 council elections. I think its good to rank the pollutions in order of prefensence. Though it is a relief that you don't have to put a number against all Candadtes. This means you can avoid voting for the Labour party and Tories.

37

Anthony,

Glasgow 25/06/2009 20:32:57
27) Grahamski - We may differ on the best electoral system, but I suspect we have common ground over so-called 'party professionalism' - the dominance of political parties in our parliaments.

This is damaging because as you know, we don't have a written constitution (the only country in Europe not to, and only one of 3 so-called democracies in the World not to also).

Our system therefore relies on the integrity competence and, sorry for the connotation - but 'good form' of our parliamentarians. When they can be too easily subdued, or worse selected for their poodle like tendencies, rather than their ability to think independantly, our whole system is jeopordiced. This is I fear, what has happened; and yes, this could happen under any electoral system.
38

Anthony,

Glasgow 25/06/2009 20:47:58
Whilst I'm in my flow, I'd add that two of the outstanding examples of parliamentarians in recent years, in my opinion, were Tony Benn and George Galloway - oddly enough, both well to the left.

Benn had a profound understanding of Parliament our constitution and the concept of democracy. His book 'Arguments for Democracy' is also what first stimulated my own interest in politics as a kid.

Galloway, whether you agree or disagree with his politics, nonetheless represented the free minded spirit parliamantarians ought to possess.

I remember when he represented Glasgow Kelvin, he was adament that he had to get detailed leaflets out to every voter explaining his position in unusual detail. Why? Because he disagreed with the Labour Party official policy on several issues, and did not want votes under false pretence. He increased his majority. Respect!

Some of the people even in the front benches of our parliaments just don't get it.
39

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 25/06/2009 21:53:15
Yon Graemski(s) doesn't half like to waffle the proverbial load of.

The dearth of independent MSPs throughout the UK shows quite clearly that, regardless of voting system, the electorate is conditioned (or prefers) to vote along party lines.

As flawed as everyone says the Holyrood system is, the return of MSPs more than roughly reflects the ballot box. It also opens up representative access choice to the concerned voter who may have a list MSP from one party and a constituency MSP from another in the same area. Choice as opposed to monopoly.
40

Alan B,

25/06/2009 22:50:43
First past the post or PR. Does it matter when we are run by a government in westminster who is only interested in the south.

It would help if we actually thought of the alternatives and not just restricted to the few limited options.

The US allow referendum questions attached to elections. That is an excellent idea as many people think their vote does not count as all political parties are just as bad as each other and not listening to the people.

Personally i would like in an independent scotland the ability to directly elect minsters ie like a president or mayor instead of each functional area being decided by who can climb up the greasy party system.

As such we could choose the minister for law and order directly. This would let the public choose between a leftish lib candidate and more hardline candidates. Instead of the parties dealing with the issue and the public only having a say in the party who deal with every issue.

41

ukrefusenik,

falkirk 26/06/2009 12:27:23
eric joyce couldnt get on a list of shifty ginger blokes , after his performance on newsnight . ha ha ha ha .....THE new labour loyalist bar none , blinking into the approaching headlights , with that smirk slowly dissolving as he realised "no more easy media rides " when the execrable B B C start sticking it to you , yer bum really is oot the windae

 

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