Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


Election massacre looms for Labour in the east

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 27 May 2009
LABOUR could be left with only three seats in the east of Scotland after the next general election, following a meltdown in the party's core support, The Scotsman has been told.
A faltering economy, strong Conservative and SNP support and the expenses scandal have placed all of Labour's Edinburgh seats under serious threat, with others in the Lothians and Central Scotland also in jeopardy.

The former Labour leader of Edinburgh City Council, Donald Anderson, admitted there were very real worries that the party might lose seats right across the east coast.

Labour has long had a stronghold in the east, stretching from Edinburgh through to Falkirk and Livingston in the Central Belt and over the Forth to the old mining areas of Fife.

But the party is preparing for a disastrous set of returns at the next election. Labour could lose a total of eight of its 11 east coast seats.

This is partly because of a surge in support for both the SNP and the Tories, but also because of the Westminster expenses scandal, which has ensnared a number of Scottish Labour MPs.

Michael Connarty was previously seen as safe in Linlithgow and East Falkirk, but he has been criticised for the size of some of his claims – including a £250 alarm clock.

Jim Devine, the MP for Livingston, was also named in the expenses scandal for submitting an invoice for rewiring his house from a company that reportedly does not exist.

Nigel Griffiths, the MP for Edinburgh South, admitted earlier this year that he had cheated on his wife with a woman in his office in the House of Commons, after photographs of the tryst appeared in a tabloid newspaper.

Chancellor Alistair Darling is deeply embroiled in the allowances row, first for "flipping" the designation of his second home four times and then for claiming back the costs of employing an accountant to complete his tax returns.

The Scotsman revealed yesterday how senior Labour figures now believe Mr Darling should be deselected or voted out of office. But some Labour figures believe the threat is much wider.

A senior Labour source in Edinburgh said Mr Darling would be "hammered" by the electorate simply because he was the Chancellor, while almost everybody in the party now believed that Mr Griffiths would be defeated because he had been "caught with his pants down".

"Most of us think it is all over for him," the source said.

Mr Anderson said: "I think the whole expenses scandal has engulfed the body politic and what you have got is a very, very difficult situation for the government and for the Labour Party."

He added: "It was always going to be a hard election. This is going to make it even tougher. Labour will find it difficult to hang on to its seats. I think that any seat at the moment is under threat. It would be a very brave person who predicted we were going to hang on to particular seats at the moment."

And he added: "Everybody fears we will be seats down at the general election. The question is, how bad is the damage going to be and how quickly can we re-build in time for the Scottish Parliament elections."

Opinion is divided, even among political experts, as to how bad the Labour result will be in east Scotland.

Independent election experts said that, while most Labour MPs in the east could withstand a 10 per cent swing against the party, the current predictions of a 15 per cent swing to the SNP would unseat all Labour MPs except the Prime Minister.

Another assessment of recent opinion polls suggests that, if current projections continue, three of Labour's Edinburgh seats would go, potentially leaving only Alistair Darling in place in Edinburgh South West, although his central role in the expenses scandal could create a greater swing.

Labour candidates might be able to blame the SNP-Liberal Democrat-controlled city council for local problems in Edinburgh and the SNP-run Scottish Government for Scotland-wide failings, but these issues are just not getting through at the moment because of the deluge of bad news from Westminster.

And with Labour in Edinburgh seen as the main architect of the unpopular tram scheme, that might have limited effect anyway.

The rolling poll in Scotland used by the Conservatives to judge the public mood currently has Labour at 29.5 per cent, the Nationalists at 31.25 per cent, Conservatives at 20.5 per cent and the Lib Dems standing at 13.5 per cent.

Using the online seat predictor Electoral Calculus, these figures paint a bleak picture for Labour. In the east of Scotland it would mean Labour lose Aberdeen North, Dundee West, Edinburgh East, Edinburgh North and Leith, and Ochil and South Perthshire to the SNP, and Stirling and Edinburgh South to the Conservatives.

However, both the SNP and Conservatives believe that there will be greater swings against individual Labour MPs who have been caught up in the expenses row and other controversies.

This means that Falkirk, Livingston, East Lothian, Linlithgow and East Falkirk, and Alistair Darling's Edinburgh South West will all be dragged into the dogfight.

Meanwhile, more Labour seats also become marginals where a handful of votes could decide the final outcome. In the east this includes Aberdeen South, which could in theory become a four-way marginal.

Neil Hudson, a vet who is the Conservative candidate for Edinburgh South, believes that he has a good chance in a seat his party once held.

"One of the most important factors in Edinburgh East and other Scottish constituencies is that people believe we can win again," he said. "It means that a Conservative vote is no longer considered a wasted vote."

But this is also a seat where the Lib Dems, second in 2005, believe they can win.

Lib Dem Mike Pringle, the MSP for Edinburgh South, said: "We have a strong presence and our support is now rising because we have not been as damaged by the expenses scandal as other parties."

And the SNP candidate in Edinburgh North and Leith, Calum Cashley, said he believed the party was being aided by tactical voting and Labour voters planning to stay at home.

"I'm sure there is going to be more tactical voting next time in Scotland than we have ever seen before," he said.

"In Labour areas the reaction is one of resignation. Some are coming over to us and others suggest they won't vote at all."

A Labour Party spokesman insisted that the party was in a better position than the opposition made out.

"The choice at the next election will be between David Cameron and Gordon Brown as prime minister," he said.

"We know people are angry with politicians, but people will understand the threat from a Conservative government to their day-to-day lives."

Six reasons Labour is struggling – and none of the problems has a 'quick fix'

1 EXPENSES SCANDAL


The continuing revelations that Labour MPs claimed thousands of pounds from the taxpayer in expenses claims for luxury furniture, fixtures and fittings and food has been damaging.

However, the disclosures that some kept on claiming for mortgages after they had been repaid and that Cabinet ministers "flipped" the designation of their main home, apparently to their advantage, has hit the party hard. Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, is up to his neck in the scandal.

2 ECONOMIC CRISIS

The economic crisis happened on Labour's watch, so although opinion is divided over the root causes, Labour ministers have been the target of much of the public anger.

The loss of one of Scotland's biggest banks and the partial nationalisation of the other has not helped, nor has Mr Brown's presence in the Treasury for ten years – the Prime Minister has not been able to blame anyone else for the handling of the economy.

3 SNP SUCCESS

The decline in Labour support in Scotland has coincided with the rise of the SNP – the Nationalists' 2007 Scottish Parliament election success allowed the party to challenge Labour from a position of authority.

The Nationalists are still enjoying strong support in Scotland and, while this continues, Labour will struggle to make headway.

4 THE TORIES GET THEIR ACT TOGETHER

Labour's success through the last decade came as the Conservatives struggled to cope with opposition.

William Hague, Iain Duncan Smith and Michael Howard all came and went as party leader without being able to make a real impression on Labour's electoral lead. But, with the election of David Cameron the Tories are last managed to get their act together.

Mr Cameron has put the party into a position where they are seen as a government in waiting. The presence of a real alternative is causing Labour real problems.

5 TRAMS

Labour candidates in Edinburgh at the next general election may try to blame Edinburgh City Council for problems around the capital because Labour no longer runs the council.

But the attacks on the SNP-Lib Dem administration are likely to be overshadowed by continuing problems with the city's tram scheme – backed solidly by Labour before and after the party lost control of the council.

The trams may end up being a Labour success story, but while large parts of the city are snarled in roadworks they will not be an electoral asset for it.

6 LACK OF ACTIVISTS

Labour used to be able to call on an army of councillors and activists to canvass and bolster support ahead of elections.

Now, though, that number has dropped off. Especially the Iraq War, many became disillusioned by policies and others by the expenses scandal. A large number of councillors were also lost in the switch-over to proportional representation in 2007.

The end result is a lack of support on the ground at a time when Labour will have to fight on more fronts, in more constituencies against a stronger range of opposition parties than they have in recent memory.

Analysis: Polls show PM could be last man standing

LABOUR MPs in the Lothians, Falkirk and Fife might well have been comforting themselves over recent days that, however low their party might have sunk in the polls, they at least were not in any imminent danger of losing their seats.

After all, only two constituencies in the area would normally be regarded as being remotely marginal – Edinburgh South (0.9 per cent majority) and Edinburgh North and Leith (5.0 per cent majority).

In both cases, it is the Liberal Democrats who are in second place, and the polls consistently suggest they are no longer the force they were at the time of the last UK election.

True, Nigel Griffiths in Edinburgh South also has the Conservatives to worry about. Although placed third, the Tories were only nine percentage points behind last time around, and could still leapfrog into first place, even if there is no more than a modest Cameron bounce north of the Border.

Elsewhere, however, Labour MPs in the region all enjoy majorities of 15 points or more. Indeed, the smallest lead that any of them enjoy over the Nationalists is no less than 23 points – the position of Gavin Strang in Edinburgh East.

Even there, the SNP were third last time around, while Mr Strang is the one Labour MP in the area who has said he will not stand again.

So, given this backdrop, it should come as little surprise that, although the last two reliable polls of Westminster voting intentions in Scotland both suggested the SNP were only two or three points behind Labour nationally, only Edinburgh South looked to be in any imminent danger of being lost.

But those Scottish polls were conducted at the end of April. Since then, Westminster has been engulfed by the row about MPs' expenses.

According to recent British polls, that row has cost Labour dear. The party's average UK-wide poll rating now stands at only 24 per cent.

If we look at the innards of those more recent British polls, it seems clear the expenses row has eroded Labour support in Scotland too – to the benefit of the SNP.

No individual British poll interviews enough Scottish respondents to provide us with a reliable statement of party strengths north of the Border. But if we gather together all of the British polls conducted over the past month, collectively they give us the views of nearly 600 people. Although still less than ideal, this is sufficient to give a broad indication of where things now stand.

And the figures suggest that, whereas a month ago the swing to the SNP was of the order of 10 per cent, now it may be as much as 15 per cent.

That makes a big difference. While nearly every Labour MP in Edinburgh and its environs could withstand a 10 per cent swing to the Nationalists, only Gordon Brown in Kirkcaldy & Cowdenbeath could resist a 15 per cent swing.

So the expenses row has suddenly cast a shadow over the future of nearly every Labour MP in the region.

They might be wise to explain their own expenses to their voters forthwith.

• John Curtice is professor of politics at Strathclyde University in Glasgow.


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 26 May 2009 11:14 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Labour Party
 
1

The Creature from the Black Lagoon,

26/05/2009 22:09:49
#1 Online Scot will be getting sacked from SNP High Command for failing to get the first comment.
2

Brianwci,

27/05/2009 00:34:47
Nats must not be fooled by this gloomy picture painted by two arch unionist journalists.

We must fight every seat as if our lives depended on it and that should be happening now for the Euros. Look on them as preparing the Parliamentary seat for Westminster and the Referendum next year and of course for Holyrood in 2011.

No matter how GOOD we are told it will be for us, there is nothing like complacency to turn the tables.

Every voter deserves our respect and deserves to be treated to a hard fought campaign for their vote.
3

urchin,

27/05/2009 00:35:18
Labour is going to be takin a tanin throughout Britain, you dont have to be a member of Mensa to know that.The outcome for Scotland is the Tories or the S.N.P.i hope for Scotland that its the latter.
4

Highland Mist,

27/05/2009 00:36:23
Surely even the half wits in Kdy and Cowdenbeath will have seen the light of day and not vote for what has to be the most dithering and predictably reactive PM that this country has ever seen: They more than most are suffering in this recession and they are just as sick of the scandals connected to the expenses carry on as everyone else is. Only the pond life amongst us (admittedly there is more than a fair share of it in Fife) will now continue to vote Labour.
5

hoblar,

27/05/2009 00:38:59

"A Labour Party spokesman insisted that the party was in a better position than the opposition made out."

Actually, most of the article quoted some labour councillor saying many times over that he believed new labour are up the old political creek not only without a paddle, but without a boat....or satnav.

This councillor would have had the approval of the new labour spin machine, but if it is meant to frighten the electorate into voting labour, then the brains (sic) behind labour are basically two rocks short of a cliff, and that cliff beckons for them to leap like lemmings, or rather be pushed over by the electorate.

These alleged polls are not really seeing the light of day and are only loosely referred to in articles that are reluctantly admitting that on top of the undoubted continual rise of the SNP in Scottish politics, that Labour supporters realise that labour is a waste of space, something a lot of us have known for a long time.
6

Iainbroch,

27/05/2009 00:53:04
re 4

Agree in part with what you wrote. I would add a proviso though!

Predictions are always dangerous to make. I think though the article does illustrate the need for truly impartial International observors particularly as there are so many villans under threat. Remember we live under the thumb of a UK govt now seen as the most corrupt in Europe. A govt that will have the final decision on an election date!
7

Daudi Baldrs,

Norway 27/05/2009 00:55:20
New Labour is dead.

But let's be realistic here: a week is a long time in politics, so by the time of the next general election, they are likely to be a pile of bones under the ground. Ie not just dead, but buried as well. Currently they are twitching on a mortuary slab.

The direction of electoral traffic is one-way on this: as far away from the bloated, stinking, corrupt, careerist, expense wringing, war-mongering, fat, immoral Nu-Lab corpse as it's possible to get.

So long Tony (and Gordon). Thanks for all you've done. Just a shame your pal Maggie Thatcher's too doddery to applaud - she'd have been the only one.
8

Alan B,

27/05/2009 02:20:03
The true labour meltdown in scotland will happen the following yr at the scottish election.

Labour having been gubbed in the general election will be in turmoil and be facing a decade in opposition. Brown and all the other high profile scots will have gone and labour in london will be an english dominated affair.

The tories will have no respresation in scotland worth while.

Labour will go into the next scottish election with a useless leader in grey, with severe intellectual issues that they will not have contemplated or prepared for. for instance how will it balance it support for the union with a tory dominated westminster, the threats to barnett and scottish budgets.

Labour will have to either support the tories or argue that scotland should suffer under the tories and remain in the union, so that in another 17yrs there could be a labour government again that may not make the same mistakes.

Labour will have to say tory spending cuts should be welcomed as it rejects fiscal autonomy.

It will have to explain why train structure such as network rail should be controlled by london when funding for rail projects is via the sp. And have to explain why if the tories want to reprivatise it scotland should welcome that.

Labour have made a rod for their back in their whole approach by not thinking through the consequences.

Labour are an excellent negative scare story campaigning machine. If it does that again, in the same way they destroyed the tories before they will play into the snp hands.

Add to that given the shear scale of labour corruption then it will not be able to play the ethical anti sleaze card that it did again the tories pre 97.
9

tartangladbach,

edinburgh 27/05/2009 02:23:53
we are going to witness the death of the labour party just like the liberals faded in 1930's. labour will be pushed in to third place. unless they replace the great leader and go for damage limitation they are ..... fill in your own!
10

,

27/05/2009 02:51:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
11

SHANGHAI SCOT,

Shanghai 27/05/2009 03:00:46

Ni zou ni de yang guan dao, attributed Chinese proverb, ' may you live in interesting times'

This is very true at the moment.
12

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

27/05/2009 03:25:56
Nice to see The Hootsmon taking their blinkers off but if they had opened their eyes fully, they might have seen last weeks (Thursday) opinion poll, published in the Mail on Sunday...A lot of Sleaze flowed under Westminster Bridge since then!

Q) If there was a general Election tomorrow; who would you vote for?

SNP - 32%, Lab - 20%, Tory - 8%, Lib - 8%, Others 6%
N o t A - 24%

Of course the quarter of the sample who said they would not be voting, don't count in the final breakdown which is -

43% - 27% - 11%- 11% - 8%

How big can the margin for error be on a sample of 650?
13

W Smith,

Middle East 27/05/2009 03:44:13
"The economic crisis happened on Labour's watch, so although opinion is divided over the causes.."

Weasel language from this Labour supporting newspaper.

When Britain was hit with a recession in 1980 the Scottish Labour supporters blamed every single job loss on Mrs Thatcher.

Never mind the fact she had only been in the job for one year.

What goes around comes around pal.

BTW
This newspaper is trying to confuse issues to help its beloved Labour Party.

Tiny oil-less nations like Singapore still managed to pump money into its sovereign funds in the good years to help them through the bad years.

1) Its Mr Brown's mismanagement of the billions of pounds raised in the good years and leaving the country broke to face the global recession thats the problem.

2) Then of course there was Brown and Blairs deregulation of the financial sector in 1997 (independence for BofE, etc) that went un-opposed by the same Scots who protested against Thatcher's de-regulation of public transport, etc.

What happened at HBOS can hardly be blamed on the 'global' recession.

On these two issues I fail to see how "opinion is divided over the root cause"

It was 'prudent' Gordon's fault - END OF STORY.
14

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

27/05/2009 03:49:14
#15 Castle Douglas

We may have mistaken voter Loyalty and Hope (that things can only get better), as well as an understandable reluctance to openly admit, that they have been conned by Snake Oil Salesmen for all of their adult life.

As STUPIDITY...But Times they are a Changin'.
15

Ursus arctos horribilis,

27/05/2009 04:23:10
Last time Labour were in power they almost wrecked the country-this time I think they have succeeded.

Gordon Brown and Phony Tony will go down in history as the men who achieved what Napoleon and Hitler could not.

David Cameron faces an enormous task in trying to rebuild the economy-the draconian cuts that must be implemented throughout the bloated public sector together with the reforms of social security that are essential to any recovery will cause considerable hardship to many.

There is no quick fix or easy way out-quite simply the country has been living beyond its means for too long with a ponzi economy built largely on debt and inflated property values-engineered by Brown.

The bill for this binge is on its way and UK plc cannot afford to pay.



16

tartangladbach,

edinburgh 27/05/2009 04:37:10
labours biggest problem is their lifelong lapdog supporters feel betrayed. they might not vote for anyone. i would be interested to see ho many of the "none of the above" voters are traditionaly labour voters.
17

Jimmy Le Pie,

27/05/2009 05:14:12
Excellent viewing watch the Sleaze Party disintegrate!!


Keep up the good works lads!!!!
18

redcliffe62,

27/05/2009 05:55:29
running a good nergative scare campaign normally ups the labour vote substantially, but this time we fear labour at least as much as the unknown, and the thieving at wastemonster gets even the great unwashed to cynically look at something else, as long as they still get their benefits.
if cameron said, great unwashed, please vote for me and you still get your benefits they might even consider him!
if salmond says it, expect a landslide.
19

steve 1511,

aberdeen 27/05/2009 06:22:57
eric joyce the mp for falkirk west ,who made claims of 160K second home allowances for his main home in south croydon that he was not entitled to do, this so called honourable gentleman lived there with his wife who was a school teacher in croydon his kids went to school in croydon, and he had no main home in falkirk,who is going to vote for this so called mp who lived 400 miles away from the people he was supposed to represent,people so not vote for dishounarble gentlenen such as joyce.
VOTE THE TROUGH FEEDER JOYCE OUT
20

Saul Tyre,

27/05/2009 06:28:14
I quite like Fife but if the people of Kirckaldy want to keep Gordon Brown as their MP then they must be suffering from a form of mass stupidity. I mean, have you seen the town lately? It's become a dump, almost as depressing as Gordon's speeches..
21

yockel,

27/05/2009 07:04:33
"the party is preparing for a disastrous set of returns at the next election" big postal vote then?
22

Colkitto,

River Clyde 27/05/2009 07:12:30
Will the Scotsman newspaper still back Labour to the hilt when they are out of power and unpopular with the public ?
Or will they switch to the Tories ? Who again are unpopular with the Scottish public.

Decisions, decisions.......
23

Mik Wilso,

27/05/2009 07:13:57
"But Times they are a Changin'"
should that not have been

"But Telegraph, they are a Changin'"
24

nabodican,

Rural Scotland 27/05/2009 07:17:25
#25 Saul Tyre
Are you sure GB represents Kirkcaldy?
I thought he represented Dunfermline.
You can be sure Glenrothes will still vote labour though.
25

Marian,

27/05/2009 07:25:30
The real reason why voters will not vote New Labour are these:

* 16 of the 20 top expenses scandal claimants are New Labour;

* Several Cabinet members appear to have lied, either to the Fees office or HMRC, and if so are unfit for office;

* Two Lords (Both New Labour) have been suspended from the HOL. First time in several hundred years;

* The Speaker (New labour) has been thrown out, also the first time in several hundred years;

* Gordon Brown has said and done nothing coherent on the subject;

The expenses scandal is a detail (although a revealing one) compared with New Labour's catastrophic mismanagement of the UK economy as a whole and the public finances in particular.
26

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 27/05/2009 07:26:10
After 50 years of being the dominant political party in Scotland, they have now been shown for the sleazy rabble they are.

They have purposely kept the people of Scotland poor with their policies, creating a culture of dependence that has left a blight of grinding poverty across much of Scotland.

The expenses scandal seems finally to have woken the east of Scotland, but what about the west?

Will they continue to be played for fools, by these faux socialist who resort to playing the sectarian card to their political advantage?

Will they finally see how they been lied to all these years by these Champagne Class Warriors?

We shall see.
27

The Tin Man,

27/05/2009 07:28:28
#12 Alan B

On the other hand, large numbers of unionists voting for the SNP will present the SNP with intellectual problems which they have not have contemplated or prepared for.
28

Linda,

Edinburgh 27/05/2009 07:32:21
I rather doubt if Tories are on 20% as this has not been reflected in any of the many local election contests in the last 18 months.

Percentage swings required from 2005 are no longer a reliable indicator as the Lib Dem support (then mainly due to Iraq war) has collapsed and the SNP were at an all time low.

Since then the SNP support has greatly improved on its 2007 Scottish Election results.

It's all to play for.

29

Linda,

Edinburgh 27/05/2009 07:36:52
Also interesting to note that Labour have dropped the Scottish prefix in European ballot paper.

Did these numpties think by saying Labour they would appear higher up than all the Scottish Parties but in fact they are registered as The Labour Party and appear near the foot of a long ballot paper.
30

c.u jimmy,

glasgow 27/05/2009 07:37:43
Look here we should get behind Labour and shove them into oblivion!!
31

brownlie,

27/05/2009 07:48:09
6 Highland Mist

On reflection, is this posting a true reflection of your mind-set?
32

brownlie,

27/05/2009 07:49:55
33 Tin Man

Can you explain the reasoning behind your post?
33

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 27/05/2009 07:50:21
#14 Traquir

"Why do they show such a lack of confidence in Scotland's capabilities as an independent nation in her
own right?"

Perhaps it is because that since they have been the dominant political party in Scotland for the last 50 years they assume that in an independent Scotland they would also be the dominant party for the next 50 years.

Knowing their own economic track record, they realize that 50 years of having themselves in power would be enough to reduce a country to developing nation status.

I however don't believe the people of Scotland are stupid enough to keep them in.

By getting independence we will have broken the labour mindset that has kept us down so long.

I believe that with our political independence will also come a dramatic realization that if we can, as a nation, stand on our own 2 feet that we can also do this as individuals.

I think that achieving our independence will utter in a revolution as significant for us as the Scottish Enlightenment was for our forefathers.
34

James,

Dundee 27/05/2009 07:59:27
We must get rid of Labour......no doubt.

Look out for lots of 'Nice young men' touring the care homes....'Just sign here' and voila proxy votes for Labour.
Record numbers of postal vote applications in seats that Labour ar ein danger of losing (which will be them all)

Labour has a track record for this.

Still not going to be enough.
35

Phil C,

27/05/2009 08:02:52
I would be the first to celebrate the total annihilation of Labour, but this 'story' is just The Scotsman trying to frighten voters into their usual backing of the incompetent mob of chancers that Labour have been for the last 50 years. They are trying to stop an understandable and fully deserved haemmorhage of support for Labour.

The polls I've seen still show an incredible minimum 25% support for the sleazy warmongering party in Scotland. Labour are still dangerous, given the lack of bravery shown by the Scottish electorate in the past. There is still too much fear in too many folk to push through the birthright of Scots to live in and govern our own country. Now's the time!
36

The Tin Man,

27/05/2009 08:05:11
#39 Brownlie

If I have to explain the reasoning behind my posting, you are more intellectually challenged than I thought you were. I'll repeat, and re-word:

If large numbers of unionist swing-voters vote for the SNP, have the SNP contemplated, or prepared for the resultant intellectual problems that presents to their raison d'etre?

Or, do you think they will convieniently ignore such a phenomenon?
37

David Chapman,

Aberdeen 27/05/2009 08:05:26
Before we start electing the SNP to office, let us not forget that Alex Salmond's response to the expense claims scandal was that he planned to do absolutely nothing.

Translation from Politician to English: "We're twice as corrupt as everyone else."
38

donnelly,

dundee 27/05/2009 08:16:03
Yes David #46 above ...a very good blaanced commnet ...wonder who you vote for ??? ..hmm ,,

But think in reality the story is a bit no brainer for Scotland anyway since ...
...SNP.. ARE..the current ruling party in Scotland via overall voters decission ...not a small poll volume
... Labour who are 2nd have only shown themselves in the interim period to be even worse than what we thought when WNP were given the vote....
...Labour support is even at a lower ebb since the last fiasco ...
...SNP have only shown a positive presence and deserving of more support ...

Therefore QED apart from Labour getting up to its usual skullduggery ...one would surmise rightly that SNP should favour ...

dont see Conservatives making much headway since they last riound off votes put they way down ..and cannot see that changing overnight with previous Labourites that are sick to death of their party now ...suddenly voting for Conservatives ? ....

So in my mind ...unless as stated "skullduggery" ??? ...think SNP should establish a more positive hold and then we can really judge the them on performance...."skullduggery" being the optimum comment ...and hence all actual votes for SNP and not apathy will be required.
39

The Tin Man,

27/05/2009 08:18:49
#46

I have a feeling he is under PR orders to keep as quiet as possible about expenses, same as the Lib Dems. At least Cameron has shown some leadership, rather than Salmond's 'we will let the existing system decide if I can keep expenses I claimed, and never incurred, under the existing system, 'cause it was the fault of the system - now go away and concentrate of someone else to make me look not so corrupt in a comparative manner'.

At least the third guy investigated didn't claim for £800 worth of Toblerone or a £2,324 bed.
40

TWC,

exLabour 27/05/2009 08:27:51
How can the Labour poodles even attempt to spin this. A lot of ex Labour people have been telling them on these very posts that this was coming and they continued to spout the old scare stories.

The only thing that will Save SLAB is some really big Scottish Financial proposals, and if they don't hurry up Cameron will steal these as well. He is already hinting at it.
41

Jeeemy,

St Andrews 27/05/2009 08:30:41
36#
Friend you have forgotten that the Glenrothes by-election where there was an extraordinarily high number of postal votes.
Then the returns paperwork was delivered to the Sheriff Officer in Kirkcaldy to be retained for 6 months, and guess what these same returns got lost before the statuary period.
42

Saul Tyre,

27/05/2009 08:30:43
#29 nabodican

Gordon Brown represented Dunfermline East till 2005 when he became MP for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath. Poor souls.
43

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 27/05/2009 08:43:34
49 The Tin Man


Would this be the same Alex Salmond who, only this morning, has called for an independent audit of every single MP’s expenses, to be carried out over the next few weeks and immediately followed by a general election?

44

Fred Leeson,

edinburgh 27/05/2009 08:53:11
#53
"Gordon Brown represented Dunfermline East till 2005 when he became MP for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath. Poor souls."

That's right. Due to the reorganistaion of constituencies. The boundaries were changed.
Next step for Gordon must be Kelty and Ballingry.
45

jane shore,

london 27/05/2009 08:57:28

Post 47..

2nd paragraph.

Did not the Scottish Enlightenment blossom after 1707 ?
46

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 27/05/2009 08:59:32
“No individual British poll interviews enough Scottish respondents to provide us with a reliable statement of party strengths north of the Border. But if we gather together all of the British polls conducted over the past month, collectively they give us the views of nearly 600 people. Although still less than ideal, this is sufficient to give a broad indication of where things now stand.”


Apart from the Progressive Scottish Opinion poll published last Sunday in the Mail on Sunday.

Sample size 650

After filtering out the “will not vote” 25% of respondents:

SNP : 43%
Labour: 27%
Cons: 11%
Lib Dem: 11%
Others: 8%

47

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 08:59:34
Alan B 12
As usual alan a great and succinct post I agree with you 100%

Tin Man 45 , if they vote SNP ergo they are no longer Unionists so no problem.
My entire family used to vote for a Unionist Party now to a man ,woman ,and soon 4 nephews and nieces allowed to Vote at the next election we have an entire extended family now of committed Nationalists.
Enough to bring a tear to a glass eye.

I was once considered the "black sheep" in the 70s when I declared my voting intentions and joined the SNP in my teens , a fad they thought , now they are all in the fold.

P.S. each year in Scotland 50,000 people die mainly 55+ the core of Labour support, at the same time approx the same number of 18yr olds get the vote.
Hate to tell all you unionists but the msjority of them are ours!!!
48

colin, crombie,

dunfermline 27/05/2009 09:01:03
interesting to see the number of posts suggesting cheating with postal/proxy votes. in the interests of transparency, lists of such voters should be provided to all parties/agents as a matter of course ( i believe they can request such information). further, a marked register of those that voted on the day or by other means should also be provided as a matter of course to allow for checking. the days of 'packed' ballot boxes should be over but the rules regarding postal votes need tightening to prevent it. i have heard rumours that the marked register 'went missing' after the Glenrothes by election. I dont know if this is true but always considered it suspect that turnout wahigher than at the General Election. Returning Officers employed by non-Labour Councils should be under instructions to be fully transparent.
49

mr broon,

Edinburgh 27/05/2009 09:03:00
Irrespective of the fallout from the Westminster expenses scandal, its wishful thinking on the part of these authors to claim that traditional Labour voters will desert their MPs in droves?

Once the General Election does come along, Labour voters will still think long and hard before voting for other candidates, especially the Scots Tories.

Some Labour voters might be seduced into voting for the Nationalists but the Scots Tories still remain a political pariah. Those Labour supporters who wish to punish their Party will simply vote tactically.
50

Ananurhing,

27/05/2009 09:05:15
When strung together, the list of Labour MPs under threat reads like a rogues gallery.

"Strung together"!.... Now there's a thought!

51

neoloon,

Moray 27/05/2009 09:06:39
Most unionists are political cowards and,come election day,after the usual scare stories over independence,they will crawl back into their self-hating shells and vote accordingly.
52

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 09:14:13
As someone that has campaigned in every GE since and including Ted Heaths 1970 victory let me put this into the mix.
Labours core older vote was always mobilised by the local activists and driven in to polling staions in their droves.
Labour had a massive army of workers then , not so now.

In a by-election you can concentrate your workers ,even as in Gasgow East ,and Glenrothes ,Scottish Labour were bussing in workers from England .

They cannot do this in a GE.
Putting it bluntly , they are screwed!!!
53

musicmadmama1,

27/05/2009 09:17:58
*56 Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath constituency includes Auchtertool, Benarty, Burntisland, Dalgety Bay, Dysart, Kelty, Kinghorn, Lochgelly and Lumphinnans. Benarty is the name commonly used to cover Ballingry and Lochore and the villages of Crosshill and Glencraig.
54

Ananurhing,

27/05/2009 09:19:10
#16 Shanghai Scot

"Ni zou ni de yang guan dao, attributed Chinese proverb, ' may you live in interesting times'"

I always thought the Chinese meant this as an insult.
A Confucian "I hope your next s**te's a porcupine that comes out backwards" sort of interesting times.

In which case,..Fung yu very much!



55

Nelson51,

Newcastle 27/05/2009 09:22:39
The only way that Darling and Brown will save the taxpayers money will be to switch off the lights at Downhill Street, when they leave.
"After you Darling" Click.
56

Sedov,

27/05/2009 09:27:08
The few real socialist remaining in the Labour Party have been expecting this time bomb to go off for some time now - but this may all be for the good as far as the left is concerned - the party needs radical cleansing as follows:

Democratic reselection of MPs as of right

Run democratic selection procedures in all constituencies now

Labour movement auditing of Labour MPs’ expenses

Workers’ MPs on workers’ wages

Clear out the careerists – socialist policies for Labour

The only reedimong factor in all this is that none of the other parties including the nationalists have a clue, policies or a radical programme on how to solve the economic and social problems of the UK and the sorrow is that once Labour gets kicked out we will all find this out to our detriment.

Forward to socialism
57

ecosseman,

facts not propaganda 27/05/2009 09:27:37
I FORCAST THE VOTERS WILL SHOW THE SNP AT 49%
LAB-17% TORY-17%
LIB- 17%

ROLL ON THE ELECTION!
58

Fred Leeson,

edinburgh 27/05/2009 09:30:39
#65
Oh dear. I hadn't realised Gordon had it so bad.
59

Strathturret,

montrose 27/05/2009 09:33:20
While canvassing for SNP in Glasgow East last year there were a number of things that aroused my suspicion in 'care homes'. We were canvassing known voters. In some homes 100% of these 'semi-dead' had apparently voted last time. Then you were told that Mr/Mrs so and so always sorts it out.

The Glentothes register of voters was accidently destroyed whilst in safe keeping at Court somewhere in Fife.
60

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 27/05/2009 09:33:21
#57 Jane Shore

The Scottish Enlightenment is generally viewed as the period 1740 to 1790.

Most scholars attribute this great period of scientific and intellectual accomplishment to 2 main factors.

Factor 1 - Public Education

Scotland for many years prior to the act of union had been establishing publicly funded schools. Such was the growth that by 1750, 75% of people in Scotland where literate while in the England of this period the number was less than half that amount.

Factor 2 - Access to Markets

With the act of Union Scotland gained access to trade with the colonies of the English Empire. Scottish ability to trade prior to the act of Union had been limited by England's actively hostile policy of excluding Scottish ships and merchants from her colonies.

So yes, the act of Union did help to create the necessary enviroment for Scotland to reach its economic and intellectual potential.

But, to argue that conditions are currently the same is ridicules.

In fact it is quite clear that the Act of Union no longer gives Scotland access to colonial markets, since there aren't any left, and if anything hampers Scotland's full participation in its current market, the EU.

What may have been good in 1707 does not necessarily make it good in 2009, or are you still wearing powdered wigs while riding around London in your horse drawn carriage?

61

Darien,

Panama 27/05/2009 09:38:18
"a Conservative vote is no longer considered a wasted vote" (Neil Hudson, Conservative candidate for Edinburgh South)

In Scotland it is. Where has this egit been for the past 30 years?

Lib Dem Mike Pringle, the MSP for Edinburgh South, said: "We have a strong presence"

There's really no answer to that one, is there. Talk about denial. FibDums are heading for lost deposits throughout Scotland.

Labour Party spokesman: "The choice at the next election will be between David Cameron and Gordon Brown as prime minister,"

No it won't. The choice for Scots is either more Westmister sleaze and corruption and a bust UKofGB&NI economy and society, OR independence and a new start for Scotland as a real nation again, helped of course by rising oil prices, plentiful natural resources and a Scottish trade surplus. These are three fundemantal advantage factors that Scotland has, but England does not.
62

The Tin Man,

27/05/2009 09:39:38
#55 bully

"Would this be the same Alex Salmond who, only this morning, has called for an independent audit of every single MP’s expenses, to be carried out over the next few weeks"

Yes, bully, the same Salmond that called for an independent audit a week after Brown called for an independent audit.

#59 SaP

"Tin Man 45 , if they vote SNP ergo they are no longer Unionists so no problem"

Absolute nonsense, SaP. You are completely ignoring the likelyhood, and implications, of the possibility of a great number of people voting for the SNP, who have no desire for the independence bit. However, I suspect that the SNP, just like yourself, will convieniently ignore what that would mean.
63

musicmadmama1,

27/05/2009 09:40:09
*60 "i have heard rumours that the marked register 'went missing' after the Glenrothes by election. I dont know if this is true "
It is true see:

http://tinyurl.com/qpfzwg
and
http://tinyurl.com/rbkxax
64

Darien,

Panama 27/05/2009 09:42:20
#68 sedov: "...none of the other parties including the nationalists have a clue, policies or a radical programme on how to solve the economic and social problems of the UK and the sorrow is that once Labour gets kicked out we will all find this out to our detriment."

I think you were only supposed to be out of the asylum for the weekend, no?
65

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 09:45:04
74 Tin Man
going by your logic that would mean that many of the Unioinist voters actually support Independence, or does it only work the other way round in yuor scenario?
66

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 09:53:11
#6

"Only the pond life amongst us (admittedly there is more than a fair share of it in Fife) will now continue to vote Labour."

Surely you should be telling the people of Fife about the benefits of why they should vote SNP and trying to encourage them to vote SNP, rather than disparaging them and describing them as 'half wits' and 'pond life'?
67

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 09:54:14
79 Independentlyinclined

Hear ! Hear!!
Westminster said pre Holyrood this was our only way to Independence , however even if SNP won all 59 seats at next GE you can bet your sweet bottom $ there will be still many more obstacles placed in our way.

For sometime now ,it has not been if ,it is now just when Independence is coming.
Tin Man , Grahamski , Rufus et al can continue spouting on here,the only people listening now are themselves.
68

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 09:55:29
80 yeah
ROTFOL A unionist complaining about name calling .
You couldn't make it up LOL
69

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 09:56:37
#74

"You are completely ignoring the likelyhood, and implications, of the possibility of a great number of people voting for the SNP, who have no desire for the independence bit"

Quite correct. A lot of SNP supporters seem to assume that everyone who votes SNP automatically supports independence.

Perhaps then they could explain the latest polls which had SNP support at 43% but support for independence at 33%? That suggests 10% of SNP voters do not support independence.
70

jane shore,

london 27/05/2009 09:57:22

Kampung Highlander @72 I dont think I did argue that Independence for Scotland would inhibit another Englightenment. just tried to point out that using the 18/19th century Enlightenment as an arguement for Independence was disingenuous.
71

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 27/05/2009 09:58:19
#79

I think the SNP will have to make very clear that it is their intention to do so. remember that even their proposed referendum question only says "enter into negociations". I do beleive that a lot of people vote SNP at holyrood and would vote no in a referendum, I know lots. However it may well be different at westminster elections. If the SNP got 39% of the vote and ended up with a majority of Scottish MPs at westminster and tried to declare Scotland Independent it could lead to all sorts of problems. Even in places like Montenegro where nearly all the local "MPs" were nationalist they still had a referendum.
72

noswod,

Honestas 27/05/2009 10:00:01
Aye we give you £33bn per year tae spend, which is £1,610pa each more public spending than the rest O the Britans. Support your remaining manufacturing industries with defence contracts another £3bn per year. Save your failing banks maybe in total £3Trillion. Allow you to have a silly little Government in Edinburgh, still be able tae cash in yer Grannys coouncil hoose, free everything frae the Government and still ya vote us oot ? Its a bit like Scotland voting frae prohibition. Withoot the cash frae Labours WhiteHa we will only get £20bn from the Tories and have tae have an 80% tax rate tae pay frae the rest. So turkeys please stop voting frae the economic and social disintegration of Scotland
73

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 27/05/2009 10:01:22
#76 IndependentlyInclined

"The Bill also creates an offence of possessing extreme pornography, such as images depicting life-threatening acts and violence likely to cause severe injury."

So I guess we can expect that the Tories will vote against it.
74

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 10:02:36
85 There would indeed be a referendum the SNP has always said this, however it would be on the terms of the Independence settlement not the act of Independence.
A majority vote at Westmister would already have given the democratic right and legality to our position
75

Sedov,

27/05/2009 10:02:54
#77 Darien - I look forward to hearing your solutions to the present crisis of capitalism.
76

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 10:06:10
86 Noswod if we are such subsidy junkies why does Westminster fight so hard to keep us in the union?

Especially with tories coming in again they have no need of our votes ,and they could get rid of the financial burden that is Scotland.
Yet our future Westminster Tory PM says he will do ,like Brown ,all that is necessary to keep Scotland in the union.

CAn you please explain that to us all ,we would love to know the reason behind that logic
77

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 27/05/2009 10:06:50
#59

According to your calculations, then, across the country, every day the SNP-advantage increases by about 100 votes - based on simple natural wastage as old Labour-supporters die off and are replaced by younger SNP-supporters. The political timebomb is ticking.

Actually, it may be even worse for Labour come the GE, as many life-long Labour addicts will simply not bother to vote this time, sickened by the MP's expenses scandal. The Labour core vote is eroding rapidly. In spite of some, relatively small-scale financial misbehaviours by SNP politicians, most SNP voters (and swing-voters) will be very eager to turn out and give Labour a good hiding. They have had it coming, even before the expenses scandal.

IMHO, the perception of continued strong Labour support in Scotland is an illusion. It's like a pack of cards, unstable and artificlally propped up by fear, tradition and an incredibly biased, undemocratic media. The pressure has been rising for several years now. When does come crashing down, the results will be spectacular - the floodgates will burst wide open, and even the WOS labour "strongholds" may be swept away.

PS: that's another two votes for the SNP. Tick, tick...
78

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 10:09:13
#60

"i have heard rumours that the marked register 'went missing' after the Glenrothes by election. I dont know if this is true but always considered it suspect that turnout wahigher than at the General Election."

Yes that is true, and many SNP supporters on this forum would suggest there were 'suspicious circumstances' surrounding the registers disappearance.

However this conveniently ignores the fact that the register went missing from a sheriff court under the power of the SNP Justice Minister, and the fact that an official report by the Scottish Courts Service, an SNP Government agency, found that it went missing due to "human error" and there was no "malicious intent" over its loss.
79

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 10:10:52
#88

"There would indeed be a referendum the SNP has always said this, however it would be on the terms of the Independence settlement not the act of Independence.
A majority vote at Westmister would already have given the democratic right and legality to our position"

Why do you assume everyone who votes SNP automatically supports independence?

How can you explain the recent poll suggesting SNP support at 43% but support for independence at 33%?
80

brownlie,

27/05/2009 10:16:23
45 Tin Man

Interesting that you should call me "intellectually challenged" when I asked you to clarify your statement about "the SNP being presented with intellectual problems which they have not have contemplated or prepared for".(sic).

The SNP, or indeed any other party, are only too glad to welcome "converts" from any other party.

I fail to see your reasoning as to why this should pose a problem for them. It is obvious that the SNP already have taken voters from other parties on board otherwise they would not be in a position to form the current Scottish government.

If that is a problem I'm sure that it is one that they will be happy to take on board and solve.
81

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 10:17:09
92 yeah
However this conveniently ignores the fact that the register went missing from a sheriff court under the power of the SNP Justice Minister, and the fact that an official report by the Scottish Courts Service, an SNP Government agency, found that it went missing due to "human error" and there was no "malicious intent" over its loss.

Indeed it was under "SNP control" therefore it is inconceivable that British Establishment MI5 or criminal elements could by pass normal security to get access to and destroy a document that would show that there had been electoral fraud to protect the British PM and the Westminter Establishment
Perish the thought!!!

Losing to the SNP is a bigger worry to Westminster than the expenses fall out ,or the global recession.
IT would mean us subsidised Scottish peasants gaining Independence and taking our natural resources,and wealth with us!!!
82

frank mcbride,

lusitania 27/05/2009 10:19:55
#89, Sedov.

Capitalism, like the faux socialism of the SU, will collapse in on itself.

The struggle, now, is not Capitalism v Socialism, but the one against the NWO (Globalisation) - the thinly veneered return to feudalism.
83

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 10:22:41
#95

"Indeed it was under "SNP control" therefore it is inconceivable that British Establishment MI5 or criminal elements could by pass normal security to get access to and destroy a document"

I'm guessing you also believe other conspiracy theories such the flying saucer at Roswell, the murder of Princess Diana and that Elvis is still alive too?
84

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 10:25:34
93 Yeah Why do you assume everyone who votes SNP automatically supports independence?

How can you explain the recent poll suggesting SNP support at 43% but support for independence at 33%?
=======================================================
Academic old chap ,if the scenario I desribed occurred the referendum would be on the terms.

Again I attack your logic, at last GE did everyone that voted Labour or Tory agree with the position of Iraq War?

Did everyone that switched to Labour in 1997 support the ending of clause 4?

You cannot continue to hve it both ways.
Earlier I referred to my first GE in 1970 .
I remember in an interview after being out of office Ted Heath revealing he as PM had sometimes due to cabinet government fronted certain bills and laws he did not personally support.

85

frank mcbride,

lusitania 27/05/2009 10:28:34
#92, Yeah 1.

I'm sure you'll agree that the "expenses" discs went missing from Westminster in the same way.

Something vey strange happened at Glenrothes which is not adequately explained by simple human error: the same can be said of the Westminster "expenses".
86

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 27/05/2009 10:30:13
#84 Jane Shore

What is disingenuous about arguing that when Scots are allowed to compete openly without hindrance that they can achieve great things.

I think that if we are ever going to see any Scottish renaissance then it will only be possible when we are free of the hindrance that is rule from Westminster.

Only with Independence will we be able to reach our potential.

That I used the Scottish Enlightenment as an example must really grate with some Unionists who view the Scottish Enlightenment as something that happened in Scotland because of our exposure Georgian England.

Nothing could be further from the truth, it was the fact England was no longer actively trying to keep us in pecuniary that we achieved it on our own.

Which was in fact good for England because we sent you a constant stream of Engineers, Doctors, Soldiers and Statesmen to build and run your empire for you.


87

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 10:31:34
97 Yeah ,I'm guessing you also believe other conspiracy theories such the flying saucer at Roswell, the murder of Princess Diana and that Elvis is still alive too
=======================================================
I neither said yeah, or nay to a Glenrothes conspiracy .
I merely gave a counter argument to your it is inconceivable there was any wrong doing.
It is called debate.
Let's be honest however the Labour party is no stranger to electoral fraud.
It is also inconceivable that any of our Labour cabinet could for example ,flip thier main residence 4 times to steal from the tax payer, or buy duck houses, clean out their moats.
So you are probably correct Westminster is above any wrongdoing or corruption.



88

brownlie,

27/05/2009 10:32:06
74 Tin Man

How do you marry the statement at 49 "I have a feeling he is under PR orders to keep as quiet as possible about expenses ..." with your statement at 74 "Yes, bully, the same Salmond that called for an independent audit ...". These statements cannot both be correct, can they?
89

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 10:35:13
#98

"at last GE did everyone that voted Labour or Tory agree with the position of Iraq War? Did everyone that switched to Labour in 1997 support the ending of clause 4?"

No, but thats precisely my point - not everyone who votes SNP supports independence, just as not everyone who voted labour/tory supported the Iraq war.

Some people on here however assume that every SNP voter would also vote for independence, the poll statistics show this is not true.
90

brownlie,

27/05/2009 10:36:20
101 Scottish and Proud

It is also inconceivable that a judge in Birmingham considered that Labour's actions in a voting scam was akin to that of a "banana republic".
91

Scunner,

Aberdeen 27/05/2009 10:37:38
Cheerio cheerio cheerio!!

I'm looking forward to the next election seeing those who fleece the system get the chop in public.
92

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 27/05/2009 10:42:03
#98

Very much not academic old chap. First past the post can create a situation whereby the SNP could get a majority of westminster seats with well under 50% of the votes cast. the rest of the votes being cast for Unionist parties. You would the say that legally without a referendum you would declare Independence? although the majority of people in the country voted for parties oposed to it?
93

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 10:43:10
103 Yeah

So you agree with me it is academic if someone votes SNP there is not a box that says please state any policies you disagree with or the like.

The vote covers the manifesto and that says a vote for us is a vote for independence.
So in the scenario that SNP win a majority at GE it is a legally binding marker for Independence.
The referendum then is about the terms not the act of Independence.

But don't you worry yuor little unionist head about it the electorate will be well warned by the forces of unionism about what a vote for the SNP means.

So the result will be binding.
YEAH THAT'LL BE RIGHT!!!
Your incorruptible Westminster will give all the Vichy Scots several avenues to block the democratic decision of the Scottish people.
Take heart from the 40% rule ,the missing register, and all of those other inconceivable Westminster wrongdoings
94

Scottish and Proud,

glasgow 27/05/2009 10:46:46
106
As I am trying to explain to Yeah we did not make up the FPTP system the "Big Two " in Westminster love so much.
blair with his landslide only had around35% of the popular vote .
That led us into illegal wars, dodgy expenses, recession of the worst kind.
I did not hear any of you saying then that it was unfair.
Almost 70% of those that voted in that UK election rejected Labour but we have had them for 12 long years now.

You cannot have it both ways
95

Last fish in the Clyde,

Clyde 27/05/2009 10:52:20
Its certainly looking good for the SNP.

Their only problem is Salmond & Lochheads catch the last fish policy to placate their North-East constituants.
Certainly a big problem in the Clyde & Ayrshire with no fish left!!!
96

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 27/05/2009 10:52:45
#108

Actually I have always opposed first past the post. I really do not think the SNP could get away with attempting to claim a mandate for Independnece on a majority of Westminster MPs with a minority of the vote. the potential consequences scare me. they would be going against the wishes of the majority of the public. They must hold a referendum.
97

jane shore,

london 27/05/2009 10:58:38

It wasnt our Empire KampungHighlander, (100) it was known as the British Empire & a lot of Scots did very very well out of it.

Anyway best wishes. I speak as an English Independence supporter. Polls show that the majority of us English would like Independence, not the same in Scotland I understand.
98

European Scot,

27/05/2009 11:04:41
103 Yeah1

"No, but thats precisely my point - not everyone who votes SNP supports independence, just as not everyone who voted labour/tory supported the Iraq war. "

You very conveniently left out that not everyone who votes New Labour, Tory, or Lib Dem are against Independence.
It isn't polls that will give us the truth, only a referendum will do that, assuming of course that it is honestly run.
Unlike you, I am not quite so trusting of the British State.
99

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 11:05:31
110
As I stated earlier pre Holyrood the "rules" from WESTMINSTER were quite simple get a majority at a GE and you can have Independence.

Now we are all adults here and we know they would never have accepted that nor will Westminter accept even if SNP take all 59 seats.

I am merely stating the truth of what SHOULD happen in that event.

I am also certain even in that scenario the SNP would hold an Independence referendum ,it is not the SNP that is scared to consult the Scottish people on THEIR wishes for Scotland it is the Unionists that think referendums are a bad thing.

That of course will change overnight should the SNP gain the majority of Scottish seats.

I am pointing out the hypocrisy on here of unionist posters and politicians.

FPTP suits them if it means they get their turn at being head boy in Westminster.

It does not suit them when anything threatens that Westminster, or its demise.

Remember who it was a few months ago that passed a motion in Holyrood allowing SNP government to hold such a referendum.

I reiterate it the SNP are the only party to wish to consult the people FACT!
100

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 11:06:13
#101

"I merely gave a counter argument to your it is inconceivable there was any wrong doing."

I did not say it was 'inconcievable' that electoral fraud was committed in Glenrothes. It may well have been for all I know.

My point was about the loss of the register which people seem to believe was 'suspicious'.

Since it went missing from a sheriff court run by the SNP government, and since a agency of the SNP government released a report stating that there were no suspicious circumstances surrounding its loss, then it is unlikely that the loss of the register was through malicious intent.

Certainly I would be far more inclined to believe an official report by a government agency than your far-fetched conspiracy theories about MI5 and 'criminal elements'.
101

Darien,

Panama 27/05/2009 11:10:50
#89 Sedov: "..I look forward to hearing your solutions to the present crisis of capitalism."

Steady now. Its the UK government that has messed up through its inability to control the City of London. Capitalism is not the problem. The problem is New Labour politicians who have no business experience whatsoever and lost control of the financial sector. Plus the fact the UKofGB&NI has a far too bloated public sector as it is. You would seriously seek to expand the UK public sector (i.e. socialism)? Really?

The UKofGB&NI is already bust and has no option but to reign in the public sector largesse and waste. For the UKofGB&BI it is already too late, and socialism (i.e. more public spending) is a large part of the reason the UK is now a bust economy. The double whammy of deregulated financial sector plus an out of control public sector is the reason why the UKofGB&NI is where it is today - at the bottom of the list of 'developed' nations.

The only solution for Scotland is independence, helped by high oil prices, a trade surplus and an entrepreneurial economy and society. These will be the hallmarks of Scotland's future national success. Just ask Norway. We should wish Englandshire all the best in future - they will need it, because they don't have natural resources, or exports, and have relied too much on the City of London and property prices. Their economy will take several generations to repair, if they are lucky.

If you think capitalism is the problem, and solicialism is the solution, you are misguided and clearly need to study the subject matter in more detail.

102

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 11:15:08
#107

"The vote covers the manifesto and that says a vote for us is a vote for independence.
So in the scenario that SNP win a majority at GE it is a legally binding marker for Independence."

Clearly you know nothing about international law and what is or is not 'legally binding'.

Even if the SNP win a majority of Scottish seats at the next election it will not mean independence is 'legally binding' - that can only come through a referendum.
103

Sgian Achlais,

27/05/2009 11:17:23
59
Scottish and Proud,Glasgow 27/05/2009 08:59:34
Alan B 12
As usual alan a great and succinct post I agree with you 100%

Tin Man 45 , if they vote SNP ergo they are no longer Unionists so no problem.
My entire family used to vote for a Unionist Party now to a man ,woman ,and soon 4 nephews and nieces allowed to Vote at the next election we have an entire extended family now of committed Nationalists.
Enough to bring a tear to a glass eye.

I was once considered the "black sheep" in the 70s when I declared my voting intentions and joined the SNP in my teens , a fad they thought , now they are all in the fold.

P.S. each year in Scotland 50,000 people die mainly 55+ the core of Labour support, at the same time approx the same number of 18yr olds get the vote.
Hate to tell all you unionists but the msjority of them are ours!!!

==================================

Me too,

I am finding the task easies and easier everyday. Getting people to awaken from the slave like mentality of "London knows best" & "I always vote Labour" or "The Lib dem guy is a decent man" used to be a challenge.

I am now finding previous "only vote Unionist" people willing to come out and vote for an Independent Scotland.

We are not just destroying their voter base but actively converting ex labour supporters and lib dems to embrace the Scottish Independence movement and go forth and enlighten others. (I did not forget the tories I just have not met any people outside of care homes who could consider voting for them. Seems Rufus has the institutional vote sewn up)

In all battles their are those who wait to see which way the wind is blowing before they declare their intentions. Scotland has been full of these people in large numbers for centuries.

Well it seems the wind of change in Scotland is Gael Force.
104

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 11:19:24
114 Yeah at least now you agree it is not inconceivable that there is a possibility that something untoward could have happened in Glenrothes.

As to believing a "government agency" ,especially with this lot you are barking mad.

Take this present expenses debacle the raw material that the Telegraph received is nothing like the information the "government agency" planned to release in July ,as can be evinced by Scot Ian Gibson in Norwich.
He posted his expenses on line to show what a good,honest little socialist he was.
turns out using the govrnments way of hiding MPs addresses etc we would never have nown that we paid for his daughters half price home in London.

So I would suggest the last people to believe are government agencies.
105

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 11:21:33
#112

"You very conveniently left out that not everyone who votes New Labour, Tory, or Lib Dem are against Independence."

Yes that is true - and is exactly my point. People like 'Scottish and Proud' seem to assume all SNP voters support independence and all unionist party voters don't - which is not true.

"It isn't polls that will give us the truth, only a referendum will do that, assuming of course that it is honestly run."

Quite correct - a referendum will give the truth, not elections.

Scottish and Proud's ridiculous claim that Scotland will be 'legally' independent if the SNP win a majority of seats at the next election is quite frankly absurb.
106

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 11:23:53
#118

"at least now you agree it is not inconceivable that there is a possibility that something untoward could have happened in Glenrothes."

I never disputed it was not inconcievable. I was talking about the register.

"As to believing a "government agency" ,especially with this lot you are barking mad."

Er.....the government agency I am talking about is the Scottish Courts Service - who are an agency of the SNP government at Holyrood.

Are you suggesting I am 'barking mad' to believe an SNP government agency?
107

Sgian Achlais,

27/05/2009 11:25:36
116
Yeah1,27/05/2009 11:15:08
#107

"The vote covers the manifesto and that says a vote for us is a vote for independence.
So in the scenario that SNP win a majority at GE it is a legally binding marker for Independence."

Clearly you know nothing about international law and what is or is not 'legally binding'.

Even if the SNP win a majority of Scottish seats at the next election it will not mean independence is 'legally binding' - that can only come through a referendum.

===========================

We did not need a referendum to get into this Union and we will not need a referendum to get out of it. If a massive number of Scottish seats are returned to the SNP you will see a change in the attitudes of the English populace.

The poor English have been brought up believing we are costing them money. They will happily see the back of Scottish MP's.

The UK is in a terrible state economically and who better to blame than the Scottish Banks and the Scottish PM, chancellor and his MacMafia.

Before you know it we will be independent and Scottish Unionists will be off to the tatooist to get rid of the Union Jack tats and pretend they were always Nationalists.

It is the nature of spinless people to always back the winning side. History is full of examples of collaborators who become traitors to their own people in return for Gold, Power or Priviledge.

We call them Unionist MP's and Lords. Many are on their umpteenth generation of quisling behaviour.

Are you?
108

Sgian Achlais,

27/05/2009 11:31:24
120
Yeah1,27/05/2009 11:23:53
#118

"at least now you agree it is not inconceivable that there is a possibility that something untoward could have happened in Glenrothes."

I never disputed it was not inconcievable. I was talking about the register.

"As to believing a "government agency" ,especially with this lot you are barking mad."

Er.....the government agency I am talking about is the Scottish Courts Service - who are an agency of the SNP government at Holyrood.

Are you suggesting I am 'barking mad' to believe an SNP government agency?

================================

I wonder how many people reading you posts are unaware of the number of Labour supporters and union men in positions of power in the Scottish Public Sector.

Did you think when the SNP took control in Edinburgh these people gave up their jobs.

Labour have the people in place, the methodology, past experience at election fraud, the desperation.

All that they required was the WILL to defraud the electorate and collect signatures from old people and non voters
109

Scottish and Proud,

glasgow 27/05/2009 11:31:36
119 Yeah
You are either been dishonst or stupid the choice is yours.

I would suggest you go back and read my posts.

I am merely highlighting the changing position of Westminster and unionists like you.

I have staed quite clearly in many of my posts the SNP will hold a referendum.

It was the unionist cabal in Holyrood that passed a motion preventing the SNP from passing legislation in this Parliament to hold the same referendum you now so profess to embrace.

The hypocrisy of unionists is amazing, you demand FPTP for Westminster because it suits the 2 trick pony parties to have power.

Yet in Scotland the very same Tories who oppose PR embrace it in Scotland for their own narrow political desires.
The tories mock Brown and labour for not holding a manifesto pledge referendum on Lisbon Treaty .
In Scotland they join forces with Labour to oppose Independence referendum.

You keep telling us the only way to have the desires of INdependence heard is to get a majority at Westminster.
As soon as that looks likely you want to change the rules again.

Win at Holyrood , win at Westminster but still you need to play our game ,our rules which are ,
Heads Westmister wins , Tails Scotlands voters lose.

Problem is the voting cattle like you would gladly let them away with it.

You only like democracy when your lot prevail
110

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 11:34:31
#121

"We did not need a referendum to get into this Union and we will not need a referendum to get out of it."

Your own party seems to think a referendum is necessary, strange that you don't.

Why don't you and 'Scottish and Proud' go and learn a bit about international law, and the law of the UK, and then come back here?

Perhaps you would then find out that not even a referendum for Scottish independence would be legally binding on the UK government, let alone an election result.

You might also learn that any changes to the constitutional status of Scotland are reserved to Westminster, and that under international law Scotland cannot unilaterally declare independence.
111

Publius,

27/05/2009 11:39:14
#115 Darien

You write "Its the UK government that has messed up through its inability to control the City of London. Capitalism is not the problem."

I don't see where the City of London comes into this. None of the banks and building societies that have gone bust was based in London. Alliance & Leicester (Leicester); Bradford & Bingley (Bradford); Northern Rock (Newcastle); HBOS (Edinburgh); RBS (Edinburgh); Dunfermline Building Society (Dunfermline). RBS the biggest casualty - made a point of always having a Scot as chief executive and a Scot as chairman. If these had been based in the City of London, the culture of the city might have restrained their chief executives before they bankrupted their companies.
112

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 11:39:44
Let me put it another way when 100% of the vote is cast in a British General Election around 70% of the opulation get a government they did not want or vote for.

The Tory and Labour Parties love that,especially when it is their turn to be Head Boy.

No referendum needed 70% ignored, in Scotland latest figures showed (Bullyweealba if you are here you have exact numbers)around 52% against 48% for after taking out the uncommitted wouldn't vote .
Suddenly your little unionist heart worries about 52%
At least have some consistency!!!
113

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 11:41:00
#123

"I am merely highlighting the changing position of Westminster and unionists like you."

Firstly I'm not quite sure why you assume I'm unionist? Is it just because I'm pointing out that you are incorrect?

"I have stated quite clearly in many of my posts the SNP will hold a referendum."

Yes but you seem to think that the referendum will be
"about the terms not the act of Independence", which is quite clearly incorrect.

Your lack of understanding of international law and the constitutional status of Scotland is shocking.

You appear to believe that Scotland will be 'legally' independent should the SNP win a majority of Westminster seats - its almost embarassing.
114

Alan B,

27/05/2009 11:42:32
#Tin Man

You are correct a challenge for the snp will be to convert any increases in support in elections to support for independence. But there is not "logic" conflict they will have to address.

Labour by comparison have backed themselves into a corner. On that is very difficult to see any coherent argument.

Labour do not seem to think beyond the immediate argument not the strategic implications.

To an extent labour have done this by opposing lit and more powers for the sp when their pals the lib dems are in favour. If the lib dems were to make that a condition of a future coalition labour are in difficulties.

They did this by not trying to ensure a unionist opposition in the sp when they helped destroy the tories.

Now if the tories win in westminster and the snp increase it dominance within the sp labour will find its short termist position very difficult to argue.

Wendy by pushing for significant more powers for the sp in line with the lib dems particularly round fiscal federalism had an answer.

Brown has left labour with having to argue that the tories should run things in scotland (with next to no representation), when they could easily have been devolved.

Are labour going to then do another uturn and then say that significantly more powes should be devolved to the sp despite not doing so when it had the power to implement it.

How are labour going to react to tory cuts in scottish budgets if it moves away from barnett?

Calman as set up by wendy was about addressing the weak powers of the sp and offering a solution to that. By also offering significantly more powers to the sp removed much of the problems that could occur with the tories imposing policies on scotland.

But brown subversion of that process has meant labour will find it difficult to say give us another chance to come up with a more workable solution.

115

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 11:44:50
124 Yeah
You might also learn that any changes to the constitutional status of Scotland are reserved to Westminster, and that under international law Scotland cannot unilaterally declare independence
=======================================================
Yet again you are distorting my posts .
You are a well trained unioist troll,repeat a lie often enough it becomes a truth.

to the above point the will of the Scottish people CANNOT be ignored.
Westminster willnot "grant" Independence it was a union not a conquest.
The Scottish people will determine their own future.
You keep telling us to look up international law.
I would suggest you consult the Un charter as to the rights of self determination of small nations.
That is unless you believe Scotland not to be a nation.

There is more evidence to suggest Britain is not a nation but a union of nations, all purported to be equal with slef determniation as their right!!!
116

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 27/05/2009 11:48:45
Thr problem with International law is thta lots of it is not written and most of it is unenforceable. the precedent for nations secceding is for a referendum to be held. Montenegro being the classic example of a well run (by the EU) referendum althought the nats will not want thsi here as the EU demnded a 55% yes vote on at least a 40% turn out.
117

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 11:52:33
#129

"You are a well trained unioist troll,repeat a lie often enough it becomes a truth."

Again I'm confused as to why you think I'm unionist? And what 'lie' exactly am I supposedly repeating?

"The Scottish people will determine their own future."

You are quite correct, however this future will be determined in a referendum on independence - the act of independence, not the terms.

It will not be determined should the SNP win a majority of seats at the next election - Scotland will not, repeat NOT, become 'legally' independent in those circumstances.

118

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 11:58:24
Scottish and Proud:

For supposedly being an SNP supporter you appear to have very little faith in the SNP government's agencies.

You suggested I am "barking mad" to believe an official report by the Scottish Courts Service - an agency of the SNP government.

I'm sure Alex Salmond wouldn't be happy with you if he knew you were criticising his own government's agencies...
119

Alan B,

27/05/2009 11:59:21
#Yeah

While I agree a referendum is the best way to decide the issue and not the number of mps within westminster. It is the unionist parties ie tories and labour that have rejected a referendum in favour of representation at westminster. Largely as they viewed it difficult for the snp to do well in a westminster election rather than an sp one.

It is difficult for them then to turn round and say a referendum is necessary.

The tories have generally always pushed the line of anti referendum and abour the will of parliament (a thatcher line only moving away from that for expedience over europe).

Labour and the lib dems were quite willing to change the uk constitution and have a scottish parliament without a referendum until blair tried to scupper the process with a referendum against the constitution conventions wishes. (Blair did not even tell labour own constituional convention lead mcfall of the unturn.)

The problem is unionist parties argue from an expedient point of view and then when it turns round and could bite them in the bum they will suddenly want to change position.




120

Alan B,

27/05/2009 12:05:12
I wonder if Cameron will offer significant concessions to the snp in order to push a referendum to the long grass ie semi autonomous with fiscal autonomy.

I could see them wanting same thing with NI.

So both are still technically part of the UK but run their own affairs within that. Maybe something like the Isle of Mann or Channel Islands.
121

Nelson51,

Newcastle 27/05/2009 12:13:59
#111 jane shore,london

What is an English independance supporter ?. Are you an exile who wishes to return to the Germanic states from whence you came. Alesander, founder of compare the meercat.com would say queeeeeck, seemple, hop on Eurostar.
122

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 12:20:00
Yeah
let me try and encapsulate what I actualy said in my previous posts.
although Alan B has in his usual way been far more articulate than me.

What I said originally was that Westminster had always said PRE HOLYROOD that for SNP to have a dmocratic avenue it was simple get a majority at Westminster you can have independence.
That was Westminster's postion not mine or necessarily that of the SNP.
So if we go back through the thread that is where I entered the debate.
I pointed out the staed position of unionist Westminster.
I did much earlier also state that I believed the SNP will irrespective of GE result even with all 59 seats go for a referendum.
In fact updating that I would suggest there will be 2 referendums in that scenario.
1 Do you wish Independence
2 Here are the terms do you accept etc.

The most glaring thing in this debate is the hypocrisy of unionists of which you deny being of course as do most unionisrts on here.
(Can't say I blame you I would be too embarrassed to admit that if god forbid I was)

You only like referendums or PR or FPTP if it suits your own narrow political objectives.

The Scottish Independence movement has faced every obstacle and challenge put to it by corrupt Westminster and its fifth column in Scotland.
In doing so it has shown itself both internally, (one member one vote always!) and externally and in its struggle unlike many other Independence seeking movements we have not so much as bloodied a nose.

So look forward to an activity of people power ,a general election , 2 referendums followed not too long after by a truly Independent Scottish parliamentary Election.
An election where for the first time ever in Scotland all of the population can vote for truly Scottish Political Parties that only have Scotland's interests at heart not those of a parliament in another nation .
123

frank mcbride,

lusitania 27/05/2009 12:23:00
#124 & others, Yeah.

You adamantly state that a majority vote for Independence Parties will not, in International Law, be a mandate for Independence.

Please state your definitive source(s).

You, also, state that Westminster is the final arbitrer with regard to Scottish Independence.

Again, please state your definitive source(s).

Further, what, in International Law, is the status of Treaty of Union? What are the legal conditions for resiling this contract?

You make very bold statements, but simply making such statements does not make them true.
124

Tartan Viking,

27/05/2009 12:29:16
#111.jane shore,london

Since the majority of parliamentary seats are held by English people in English constitencies, dealing with English Issues, who are you seeking independence from? Yourselves? It's like a line out of Monty Python.
125

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 27/05/2009 12:31:08
#137

"You adamantly state that a majority vote for Independence Parties will not, in International Law, be a mandate for Independence"

A majority vote e.g. they get more than 50% of votes cast would I beleive be enough. A majority of seats on about 35% of the votes cast most definitely would not be.
126

Darien,

Panama 27/05/2009 12:36:16
#125 Publius: " don't see where the City of London comes into this. None of the banks and building societies that have gone bust was based in London. Alliance & Leicester (Leicester); Bradford & Bingley (Bradford); Northern Rock (Newcastle); HBOS (Edinburgh); RBS (Edinburgh).."

Does the London Stock Exchange ring any bells? As for the so-called 'Scottish' banks, these are London-traded global banks and the overwhelming share of their toxic debts lie outside Scotland. Their shareholders, debts, revenues and liabilities (i.e. the key measures) are predominantly not in Scotland. It is excessive lending and toxic debts that brought them down, and these items for both RBS and HBoS are by and large furth of Scotland. The only thing Scottish about HBoS and RBS are the brass plates on their 'HQ's'. These banks are Scottish in name only - their activities are predominately in England and overseas. The proportion of their total net 'worth' (now negative) related to Scotland (i.e. to the 'Scottish' economy) is less than 5% of the total exposure. Westminster had to bail them out because they are UK-wide banks, not because they are Scottish.

The union began with a bust bank and is ending the same way.
127

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 12:36:40
139 Sounds fair enough to me ,however in the unlikely event 30 seats to SNP and 50.00001% of popular vote you would accept without question this as a right to Independence without the need of a referendum?
128

frank mcbride,

lusitania 27/05/2009 12:37:25
#139. All Politicians.............

I agree, but my contention has been the accepted wisdom of "Westminster" until very recently.

However, I am waiting for Yeah 1's response as he purports to have THE definitive answers.
129

Ananurhing,

27/05/2009 12:37:53
#124 Yeah
"Why don't you and 'Scottish and Proud' go and learn a bit about international law, and the law of the UK, and then come back here?"

I think you need to go and learn a bit about the Treaty of Union, and then come back here. You're completely wrong! Under the Act of Union, Scotland is a volountary participant in the union, and there is a provision for Scotland to rescind the union without any recourse to westminster.

Click, foot, bang, old fruit!


130

Iain Mac,

27/05/2009 12:43:58
Good news. Scotland gets rid of Labour but keeps out the Tories.

Both Labour and Tory are up to their necks in London-style corruption and failed right-wing policies. We need to do it different here.
131

Ronald Penman,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 12:49:12
Achtung !! Herr Ian Grey ,glorious "leader" of NEW

LABOUR in North Britain (Mr 7%!) is appearing "live"

on ebc Radio Hootsmon, THIS FRIDAY MORNING-29th May-

between 9am and 10 am, and he will be waiting for

YOUR call !

So its 0500-929500. And book your spot by ringing from

8am onwards........
132

Doh,

27/05/2009 12:50:42
Election massacre looms for Labour in the east

Well I hope so but I do remember the Glenrothes by-election.

Also worth remembering the SNP's 10% the day before the Scottish Election.

Opinion polls, public opinion and elections are not all the same thing.

The Tories will not beat Griffiths or Darling that is extreme wishful thinking.

I think David Cameron should change his name to
Tony Blair 2 - The Next Generation.
133

Sedov,

27/05/2009 12:52:12
#115 darien- If you seriously think that the banks have nothing to do with capitalism then it is you who needs to study the crisis that affects the modern world, not just the UK

Also, if you are in denial that capitalism has had its day and is in serious decline then I suggest you join the Flat Earth society- its only a matter of time before the system collapses completely and socialism will replace it, be in no doubt about that, even the slawarts of US capitalism are staring that prospect in the face. I can smell their fear as well as yours.

Nationalism? - no it is internationalism that will save Scotland, Norway ( which has had its fair share of problems if the Times reports are anything to go by) and the world.

PS as you are such a jerk I will no longer be replying to your rubbish.
134

jane shore,

london 27/05/2009 12:55:13

Tartan Viking @ 138.... Well our very own Parliament would be nice. Scotland has a disproportionate number of MPs at Westminster who are allowed to vote on English only matters. Tuition Fees for English students comes to mind. 44 Scots MPs voted on that, we are not afforded the same privilege on devolved Scots Irish & Welsh issues.

Post 135 I havent the foggiest what you are on about, please explain. Does sound a tad racist though
135

Boab,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 12:59:43
But Glasgow will keep on voting for them as if nothing has happened.
136

Sgian Achlais,

27/05/2009 13:03:27
124 Yeah
You might also learn that any changes to the constitutional status of Scotland are reserved to Westminster, and that under international law Scotland cannot unilaterally declare independence

=====================================

So you are an expert in Law now.

Lets have a first year geography lesson.

Q. Where is Westminster?

A. In England
B. In Scotland
C. Troughing in the public purse#


The Answer is A. It is in England. Please advise me of the International Laws that require you to get the permission of your neighbours for your democratically elected representitives to be allowed to govern a country.

Which Law? Who enforces it? Who would demand we prosecuted under this Law?

Personally I welcome a referendum and would support such a decision if the Unionists eventually got the stomach to allow one.

I am stating we do not need one.

We simply just declare ourselves independent and recall our SNP MP's home.

I assume the Unionists will stay in London with their masters until dismissed as no longer needed.
137

,

27/05/2009 13:04:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
138

Linda,

Edinburgh 27/05/2009 13:05:19
Doh

Worth remembering that Lib Dem has collapsed since 2005.

In the latest Council by election in Scotland, Bannockburn, they finished in 6th place with some 62 votes.

Note local by elections on average amount to one third of size of Scottish Parliament seat.
139

Linda,

Edinburgh 27/05/2009 13:05:47
And Nick Clegg is Tony Blair 3rd generation
140

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 13:07:46
#137

"You adamantly state that a majority vote for Independence Parties will not, in International Law, be a mandate for Independence."

No, I stated that a majority vote for the SNP will not make Scotland legally independent. Such a vote could well be a 'mandate' for independence, but it would not on its own be 'legally binding'.

"You, also, state that Westminster is the final arbitrer with regard to Scottish Independence. Please state your definitive source(s)."

Scotland Act 1998

Regarding international law, an interesting example is the Quebec situation in Canada - In 1998 the Supreme Court of Canada considered the position under international law regarding the right of Quebec to secede from Canada. The Court held that under international law Quebec did not have a right to secede unilaterally because Quebeckers (like Scots) were neither a colony nor an oppressed minority.
141

Sgian Achlais,

27/05/2009 13:08:48
149
jane shore,london 27/05/2009 12:55:13

Tartan Viking @ 138.... Well our very own Parliament would be nice. Scotland has a disproportionate number of MPs at Westminster who are allowed to vote on English only matters. Tuition Fees for English students comes to mind. 44 Scots MPs voted on that, we are not afforded the same privilege on devolved Scots Irish & Welsh issues.

=============================

Jane,

No need to build a new parliament. You are going to need all the money you can get once the true price of the London olympics comes to light.

Keep the one you have, it is a lovely building, and just send all the Scots, Irish and Welsh MP's home.

I agree that no Scottish MP with any moral integrity should vote on a matter that does not impact upon its own constituents.

Labour unfortunately have a many characteristic of decent behaviour missing.

Like wise I see no reason why Scotland should be governed by a Tory party with no reprentation or a couple of MP's in Scotland.

Are we a democracy or not?
142

Doh,

27/05/2009 13:11:22
#154 and 155 Linda

What do you mean collapsed?
In opinion polls?

You forgot to mention the council by-elections in Inverness and Aberdeenshore that the Lib Dems won.

I think you will find they were in "target" seats as oppossed to Bannockburn which I dont suppose is a likely Lib Dem victory.

Still at least you have a sense of perspective.

Just for the record I meet lots of voters who are begining to appreciate the SNP are full of sh*t.

Scrap Student Fees - broken promise
Brick for Brick - broken promise
LIT - broken promise

The SNP need to grow up.
143

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 13:11:47
#146

"The Tories will not beat Griffiths or Darling that is extreme wishful thinking."

I would think the tories have a fairly good chance of beating Darling in Edinburgh SW. At the last election they got 23% and labour got 39% - not much of a swing required to win really.
144

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 13:14:04
#153

"As far as I can recall, Scotland can walk away from the union at any time if it decides as a nation so to do. How to decide when a nation has made a decision??? Hmmm. I know, let's have a referendum."

You clearly haven't read my posts properly. That is EXACTLY what I am saying - a referendum will decide whether Scots want independence or not.

A majority of seats for the SNP at the next election WILL NOT make Scotland legally independent.
145

jane shore,

london 27/05/2009 13:14:25

Oh yes The London Olympics Sgian Achtais @ 158. No doubt more extra supplements on our Council Taxes......3 so far & apparently another 22 to go.
146

Doh,

27/05/2009 13:20:00
#160 Yeah1

An 8% swing is a pretty big ask.
People are unhappt with Labour rather than enthustiastic about the Tories, disillusioned voters are just as likely to vote SNP, LibDem or crank.

My guess would be Darling will hold on, even though he deserves to lose - just take a bus ride up Dalry Road and walk around Wester Hailes - it doesnt look very Tory to me.
147

Sgian Achlais,

27/05/2009 13:25:15
163
Doh,27/05/2009 13:20:00
#160 Yeah1

An 8% swing is a pretty big ask.
People are unhappt with Labour rather than enthustiastic about the Tories, disillusioned voters are just as likely to vote SNP, LibDem or crank.

============================

Doh, I do not mean to be cheeky but I hear this term a lot from football pundits.

What is a "Big Ask"?
148

frank mcbride,

lusitania 27/05/2009 13:26:29
#157, Yeah.

In law, the relevant document is the TREATY of Union: The Scotland Act 1998 is subordinate legislation.

The Quebec situation in no way equates with the Scottish one.
Quebec/Canada was a composite of disparate territories into a federal union, whereas the UK is predicated on and equal TREATY (contact) between 2 sovereign countries.

That being said, unlike the Unionist mindset, the SNP WILL bring forward a Referendum which will assert the Will of the People.

With the majority of MPs, MSPs or MEPs there will be a mandate, for such, without refernce to Westminster.

149

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 13:29:38
#163

"People are unhappt with Labour rather than enthustiastic about the Tories, disillusioned voters are just as likely to vote SNP, LibDem or crank."

Yes true, considering the lib dems got 21% at the last election they also have a good chance of unseating Darling.

I can see a big fall in labour support - perhaps down to around 25%, and an increase in Tory and Lib Dem support - which will make it a very tight three-way battle.

The SNP will also increase their support considerably, but since they only got 10% at the last election they don't have much chance of winning that seat.
150

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 13:33:33
#151

"So you are an expert in Law now."

Yes. I am.
151

,

27/05/2009 13:38:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
152

Doh,

27/05/2009 13:40:54
#164

If asked you to give me £1000, that would be as big ask. It is an Americanism but I work for an American company so I wasnt meaning to throw a mouse onto the table.
153

Sgian Achlais,

27/05/2009 13:41:22
167
Yeah1,27/05/2009 13:33:33
#151

"So you are an expert in Law now."

Yes. I am.


==================================

please extend the benefit of your legal experience and knowledge to adviseon #165 Frank
154

TWC,

exLabour 27/05/2009 13:41:36
166 Yeah1
I don't know what you and the other Labour poodles are smoking but this is jst a total swing from Labour to SNP because the Nats have all the positive policies for Scotland.
Brown has dithere over the Economy, Fiscal Autonomy/ Devolution Max and now the sxpenses where the Tories and even the Libdems have acted more positively than him.
SLAb need to distance themselves from the Westminster Party which is clearly anti Scottish too.
155

,

27/05/2009 13:41:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
156

,

27/05/2009 13:43:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
157

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 13:45:31
#171

"I don't know what you and the other Labour poodles are smoking but this is jst a total swing from Labour to SNP"

Erm....Not quite sure why you think I'm a 'labour poodle'?

I hardly think a 'labour poodle' would say "I can see a big fall in labour support" as I did in the post you are refering to.

I was talking about Edinburgh SW - Alistair Darling's constituency, and how it will be a very tight three-way battle at the next election.
158

,

27/05/2009 13:47:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
159

Sgian Achlais,

27/05/2009 13:49:39
173
The Black Douglas,27/05/2009 13:43:25
#168, Youhou, please elaborate, details and evidence please.

=========================

Only a numpty troll for very far down couth would post this. Nearly everyone in Scotland knows Salmond was forced to take the second Salary and that he donates the entire amount to charity leaving him with not a single penny in additional income.

The Scottish Media have even given up floggin this dead horse.

Instead they like to try in bring back to life the dead parrot, they think it is sleeping.
160

Sgian Achlais,

27/05/2009 13:51:09
175
Youhoo,27/05/2009 13:47:45
#173

Lets start with his two salaries, one for being an MSP and the one he gets for being a real MP. No justification whatsover for this. There are even rumours that he squirrels away his MSP wages into a Tax avoidance "Charitable Trust". Shameful antics from the loquacious dullard.

=====================
Please do tell the method he gains any benefit from a "Charirable Trust"

I would be really amused to hear this.
161

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 27/05/2009 13:52:13
#166

"The SNP will also increase their support considerably, but since they only got 10% at the last election they don't have much chance of winning that seat."

Unlikely, but not impossible - it depends what happens to the disaffected Labour voters. If they stay at home and/or split between the other parties (as expected), then the Lib-Dems take it. However, if they decide to switch en masse to the SNP, then anything is possible. Very interesting.
162

,

27/05/2009 13:54:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
163

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 13:58:00
Yeah ,then do tell us your preferred political party.
You refute being Labour or indeed a Unionist ,you most certainly are not a SNP voter so where does your X go at an election??

For everyone else ,as we know Unionists are the ones on here that never indicate a voting preference.
From Yeah what will it be?

1 I have no party allegiance I vote for the candidate I think most suits my needs at any election.
2. I do not vote for anyone they are all as bad.
3. Ignore the question completely?

Shall we run a sweep?
164

Davie08,

Edinburgh 27/05/2009 13:58:50
#179 Another new moniker kimba?
165

Darien,

Panama 27/05/2009 14:00:37
#159 Doh:

We need to remind ourselves that Holyrood is at present a wee pretendy parliament and government with less powers than the Isle of Man Tynwald (and can be shut down anytime by big brother Westminster).

We need to remind ourselves that a vote for the SNP is the only vote that will bring about Scotland's independence as a full and equal nation amongst nations. Which parties Scots vote for after independence is secured (as it will be) is another matter.

We need to remind ourselves that a vote for any union-supporting party is a vote for the British state, and that the latter is entirely dependent on Scotland remaining an unrecognised non-nation (as today, a region, more or less).

Ergo, the raison detre of British 'unionists' (who are by implication British Nationalists) is the continued suppression of Scotland, as a nation.
166

frank mcbride,

lusitania 27/05/2009 14:06:11
Youhoo.

You're not very intelligent, are you?

Why should anyone, other than a fool, who is so anti-Salmond, expound on his integrity?

He is, after all, the ONLY dual-mandate politician, ever, not to take his full remuneration.

A word of advice: please be careful when making accusations.
167

Nevsky;,

Moscow 27/05/2009 14:06:45
Who would have thought 5 years ago...Labour would face 'election massacre' in Scotland at some stage?

Scotland will them be ruled by 1 or 3 at most Tory Scottish MPs...that is hardly a mandate to rule!

Hope the SNP drive this wedge into the Union!
168

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 14:10:28
#180

"You refute being Labour or indeed a Unionist"

I refute being called a unionist or a 'labour poodle' just because I happen to disagree with a particular SNP policy, or point out that an SNP supporter is wrong on some issue.

Thats the problem with most of the SNP supporters on this forum, they fail to believe their beloved party can ever do anything wrong, or make any mistakes.

As soon as someone comes on here and points out an SNP mistake, or even slightly argues against anything they do, they are automatically branded a 'unionist' or a labour supporter.

As to my voting preference I am undecided regarding the next general election - I will probably be voting Greens at the Euros.
169

,

27/05/2009 14:10:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
170

,

27/05/2009 14:11:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
171

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 14:11:52
184 Nevsky
Scotland will them be ruled by 1 or 3 at most Tory Scottish MPs...that is hardly a mandate to rule!
----------------------------------------------------
How true but has never stopped them before !
Maybe a few more seats for example I would suggest Murphy is toast in Eastwood.

The second least winnable SNP seat in Scotland ,would not take many tactical SNP votes to rid us of the Governer General.
172

Doh,

27/05/2009 14:12:13
#172

Dont delude yourself. I agree the SNP government are doing a reasonable job - and that has amazed many commentators and perhaps some of the public.

However, your vision of nasty unionists voting against a progressive minority SNP government is laughable.

First of all, there was no vote on Student Debt - the SNP themselves realised that this was one spending commitment that was just too big to honour.
There was no vote.

Brick for brick - in fact much of public spending on schools and hospitals has been stopped while the SNP rerbrand PFI as SFT (this is the biggest deception of all - why this scheme would be any cheaper than PFI is an aspiration not a proven fact.
Once again there has been not vote.

LIT - The SNP seemed to get cold feet and were scared off by Labour's bully boy tactics. The SNP withdrew the proposal before it came to a vote.

The SNP talk a good game but dont deliver.
173

,

27/05/2009 14:13:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
174

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 14:18:35
#188

"Maybe a few more seats for example I would suggest Murphy is toast in Eastwood. The second least winnable SNP seat in Scotland ,would not take many tactical SNP votes to rid us of the Governer General."

So you are advising SNP supporters to tactically vote for the tories there in order to remove Jim Murphy?
175

Nevsky;,

Moscow 27/05/2009 14:20:07
185 Yeah 1*

Going to vote for the Greens? Lol! What for? You go on and on and on and on about the SNP and nationalists and then say that you are going to vote for a nationalist party!!!

Nutter!
176

Scottish and Proud,

Glaasgow 27/05/2009 14:20:12
185 Yeah true to form folks I would certainly call that a unionist No.1 preference vote .

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA A HA HA HA HA HA

Like all the Quisling Vichy he/she /whatever comes on here all pious ,and knowing telling every Nationalist they are wrong ,he is so right , but actually when push comes to shove I have no party loyalty.

As we say in Glasgow "away and raffle your dougnut"
No wonder the SNP is winning the argument ,this lot do not even have enough faith in their own party to proudly back it be naminmg it.

I HAVE BEEN ALL MY LIFE SNP!!!!
However if they ever stoop to the levels of this corrupt bunch of carpetbaggers purporting to be the Labour Party.
I will condemn my party hold my hands up and fight for the democratic rights of the Scottish nation not the SNP or any other corrupt party.
In Scotland the people are sovereign not my party not any party.
If only our unionist friends on here had the same integrity as Nationalists.

SNP = Scotland first ,second and always
Labour /Tory / Lib first ,second .always Scotland?? yes that is where we live.


Saor alba
177

,

27/05/2009 14:22:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
178

Nevsky;,

Moscow 27/05/2009 14:25:09
190 Tube8

Are you trying to draw a parallel between the Nationalist movement in Scotland with German Nazism in the 30s and Ethnic and Religious Nationalism in the Balkans becuase you are genuinely thick or just stirring the pot and making yourself look like an idtiot?




179

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 14:25:39
191 Yeah
So you are advising SNP supporters to tactically vote for the tories there in order to remove Jim Murphy?
-------------------------------------------------------
In your FPTP Westminster corrupt voting system you bet your sweet a@@ I am ,my entire SNP extended family live in that area and that is EXACTLY what we are going to do.
In Euros with fair voting system we will help elect the SNP.
180

,

27/05/2009 14:25:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
181

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 14:27:50
#192

"Going to vote for the Greens? Lol! What for?"

Its the Euro elections, they use a voting system called Proportional Representation, if you've heard of it - that means the Greens have a far better chance of actually winning seats in the Euros.

"You go on and on and on and on about the SNP and nationalists and then say that you are going to vote for a nationalist party!!!"

Firstly the Euro elections aren't about nationalism, secondly while the greens may be pro-independence, unlike the SNP, independence is not their one and only all-consuming, driving ambition - they are far more interested in the environment, global economy, ending poverty etc. etc.
182

,

27/05/2009 14:28:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
183

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 14:33:00
198 Yeah
I have thoroughly enjoyed exposing your very predictable and thoroughly useless arguments against Scottish Independence.
However enough is enough , before you embarrass yourself any further why don't you get yuorself down to the Job Centre or do something useful.
You are making a complete idiot of yourself and doing more for the Nationalist cause than 3 William Wallaces.

Your face must be very red
184

,

27/05/2009 14:37:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
185

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 14:37:06
#193

"No wonder the SNP is winning the argument ,this lot do not even have enough faith in their own party to proudly back it be naminmg it."

Can you read? I have said I do not currently have a loyalty to any party.

Unlike you I do not blindly follow a party whatever they do - politics is not like football.

I consider which party's policies are closest to my own preferences and vote accordingly.

I personally do not care whether Scotland is independent or not, and so the SNP with their one policy agenda do not hold any appeal for me.
186

Nevsky;,

Moscow 27/05/2009 14:37:12
198 Yeah*

Re the greens and your statement:

'they are far more interested in the environment, global economy, ending poverty etc. etc' (sounds great when do they start?)

So you are going to vote for a party on the basis of the vagueness of their policy.....mmmm...you must have spent a long time in thinking this through.

187

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 14:40:21
#200

"I have thoroughly enjoyed exposing your very predictable and thoroughly useless arguments against Scottish Independence."

I'm glad you have enjoyed yourself but I'm not quite sure exactly what you have supposedly exposed, or how you have exposed it?

I would suggest you are the one who have been exposed -
Your ridiculous suggestion that Scotland would be 'legally' independent should the SNP win a majority of seats at the next election has been shot down in flames.

I also note you have failed to answer my question as to why you think I would be "barking mad" to believe a report by an agency of the SNP government?

For someone who has supposedly "been all my life SNP" you have surprisingly little faith in an SNP government agency....
188

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 14:44:46
YEAH take a break
You have now taken ALL the options in the Unionist voting preference stakes .
I am sitting here laughing away you are so easy to predict.

Ask yourself this if you are here lying about your voting habits ,how the hell do you expect to convince anyone on here let alone in the country to continue to support the union.

You are no more a "Green Voter" than Gordon Brown is a financial genius, with his History Degree and not one outside job in his life!!!
189

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 14:46:07
#203

"So you are going to vote for a party on the basis of the vagueness of their policy.....mmmm...you must have spent a long time in thinking this through."

No I'm going to vote for a party which has more than one policy.

If you are vague on the green policies have a look at their manifesto.

The greens have a good chance of gaining seats at the Euro elections due to the electoral system, and they would also form a coalition at the European Parliament with other green MEPs from Europe (from countries such as Germany which traditionally elect far more greens that the UK).
190

frank mcbride,

lusitania 27/05/2009 14:46:19
#202, Yeah 1.

Can you explain why you believe that the SNP is a single issue Party?

Have you read any of its Manifestos?

BTW, I'm still awaiting your definitive sources re: Scottish Independence - hoops to be jumped through. Will I be receiving your reply soon? Or, indeed, at all?
191

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 14:46:44
201 Youhoo /Kimba and cannot remember all the other aliases
Who you trying to kid?
192

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 14:51:18
#206 Scottish and Proud

Unfortunately you appear to be slightly retarded.

"Ask yourself this if you are here lying about your voting habits ,how the hell do you expect to convince anyone on here let alone in the country to continue to support the union."

Firstly why on earth would I 'lie' about my voting intentions? If I was going to vote labour or any other unionist party I would happily say so.

As I have previously stated I do not care whether Scotland becomes independent or not, so why do you continue to think I 'support the union'?

You need to realise that just because someone does not support the SNP it does NOT automatically mean they support the union.

Unlike you I do not blindly follow a party whatever they do.

"You are no more a "Green Voter" than Gordon Brown is a financial genius"

You appear to have a remarkable knowledge of my mind and character - amazing considering you don't know anything about me.
193

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 14:52:45
#206 Scottish and Proud

"I am sitting here laughing away you are so easy to predict."

What I am laughing at is the fact that you stated I would be "barking mad" to believe a report by an agency of the SNP government, and have not responded to my question as to why?

For someone who has supposedly "been all my life SNP" you have surprisingly little faith in an SNP government agency....
194

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 14:56:53
#208

"Can you explain why you believe that the SNP is a single issue Party?"

Their one, prevailing, all-encompassing policy is the achieval of independence.

Their other policies are merely add-ons.

That much is evident from the SNP supporters on here - all they go on and on about is independence - nothing else.
195

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 14:57:53
211 Yeah (I never voted for a unionist party in my life.
I am just very intelligent unlike anyone else that does not submit to Westminster)


For someone who has supposedly "been all my life SNP" you have surprisingly little faith in an SNP government agency
======================================================
I have every faith in any SNP agency and as I replied about 3 hours ago what I do not have faith in is WEstminster to use underhand and illegal methods to get their dirty work done.

You know the sort of thing flipping houses, hiding sale of houses to daughters ,cleaning moats , invadin countries illegally ,hiding reports like McCRone
196

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 15:05:32
#118

"I have every faith in any SNP agency"

So why then did you say, in post #118, that I would be "barking mad" to believe a report from the Scottish Courts Service, an SNP government agency?

Was it perhaps because you were confused and did not realise the Scottish Courts Service were an agency of your beloved SNP?
197

Cheradenine,

Edinburgh 27/05/2009 15:06:05
This thread is like a conference of confirmation bias.

The Tories are dreaming if they think they will take Ed South, the Lib Dems are only 405 votes behind Labour who just increased their majority in the Scottish seat while they are a good bit further back.
198

Scottish and Proud,

27/05/2009 15:08:05
210 Yeah

You appear to have a remarkable knowledge of my mind and character - amazing considering you don't know anything about me.
=======================================================
Yes isn't the internet an amazing medium for exposing peoples character and traits.
Let me guess not for one minute expecting truthful replies as you have already shown.

You have ALWAYS voted Labour ,tragedy is you actualy still believe in them.
You have attended so many meetings ,socials etc with people who have made a career out of telling their fellow citizens they are too stupid ,too weak and too poor to govern themselves you believe it.

In any other wallk of life it would be termed abuse.
It is the typical behaviour seen in bullying husbands to their submissive little ladies.
"There all my friends you have no friends , it is all my money you have no money ,you are ugly nobody else would take you.
You are lucky you have me"

You cannot ,and have not come up with one sane reason as to why Scotland in your opinion remains the only country in the world unable to govern itself.

Zimbabwe with all its problems and poverty are not begging to come back under British Rule all they want is self determination and a democracy.

All the unionists on here believe that but not for Scotland .
Do explain that one to us all









Like all lies you cannot explain any of those reasons you can only spout the mantra.
199

European Scot,

27/05/2009 15:13:17
212 Yeah1

"That much is evident from the SNP supporters on here - all they go on and on about is independence - nothing else."

Presumably that is exactly what the inhabitants of all those former countries of the British Empire had to do, go on, and on, and on, until they finally achieved their Independence.

Incidentally, none of them are rushing back !
200

Iainbroch,

27/05/2009 15:14:13
re213

Could it be that the Courts service in Scotland is not the poodle of the SNP Governemnt unlike the CPS in England which is the poodle of the Labour Party, much like the Metroploitan Police.

Pretty hard anyway to prove that there was any malicious intent in Glenrothes when the evidence has well disappeared?

Labour Party covered its tracks very well in the cash for honours saga - I see history repeating itself in relation to flipping houses selling houses to realatives invading countries. They do have a great track record at hiding things they want hidden and it does make you wonder what they have thus far managed to hide in relation to expenses scandal?
201

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 15:18:25
#216

"You have ALWAYS voted Labour ,tragedy is you actualy still believe in them."

So If I still believe in labour why would I 'lie' about voting for them? Why would I 'pretend' that I was going to vote for someone else?

You are clearly living in some kind of fantasy world.

You are warping reality to suit your own little agenda, which for some obscure reason includes me being a labour supporter who despite 'still believing in them' won't admit to voting for them?!!!

Let me repeat, more clearly this time, so it hopefully sinks in:

I DO NOT CARE WHETHER SCOTLAND IS INDEPENDENT OR NOT.

JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE DOES NOT SUPPORT THE SNP IT DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY MAKE THEM A LABOUR OR UNIONIST SUPPORTER.

Now that I have answered you, perhaps you could answer me?

Why did you say, in post #118, that I would be "barking mad" to believe a report from the Scottish Courts Service, an SNP government agency?

Was it perhaps because you were confused and did not realise the Scottish Courts Service were an agency of your beloved SNP?
202

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 27/05/2009 15:22:40
#216

"why Scotland in your opinion remains the only country in the world unable to govern itself"

I for one do not beleiev thta Scotland is incapable of Governing itself but we are already part of a country called Britain. I have far more in common with a fellow professional from London or glasgow than I do with a farmer from Lerwick or Norfolk. Borders mean little in this day and age. Why hark back 300 years to dissolve a country older than Holland, Belgium, Germany ot Italy. 300 years of shared history, language and culture. yet if that is what the majority want the that is what will happen as we are neither "opressed" or denied a choice. I felt great pity for people like the Kosovans but less for some nats on here who make out like they have been raped and pillaged. Scotland has always had the choice just never the support of the people.
203

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 15:22:46
#218

"Could it be that the Courts service in Scotland is not the poodle of the SNP Governemnt"

If the Scottish Courts Service is not the 'poodle' of any government that means they should theoretically be independent and that therefore their official report stating their was 'no malicious intent' in the disappearance of the register should be even more believable....

Or are you suggesting that despite being an SNP government agency they are 'infiltrated' by labour 'spies' who have somehow taken control?

These conspiracy theories get more and more ridiculous...
204

Scottish and Proud,

glasgow 27/05/2009 15:25:57
YEAH
Why did you say, in post #118, that I would be "barking mad" to believe a report from the Scottish Courts Service, an SNP government agency
------------------------------------------------------
Are you stupid or just taking the pi@@?

I have answered that question for you now on 4 or 5 different occassions.
So do you just read snippets that you can then fabricate some anti SNP/Scotland answer?
205

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 27/05/2009 15:26:00
#220

"He is way too intellectually superior to the thick Labour rank and file who he has to convince that the SNP vision is the best way forward"

With one sentence you show why lots of them will not switch. When you fail to convince somebody to agree with your reasoned arguement calling them "too stupid to understand" "traitors" or "quislings" is unlikely to further your case.
206

GM,

27/05/2009 15:27:40
The Scotsman run this kind of story to scare those Labour supporters who might otherwise sit on their hands to get out there and vote.

Glasgow East - Scotsman ran a campaign of negativity towards the SNP

Glenrothes - Scotsman ran a campaign that the SNP had the election in the bag and there was no point Labour turning up.


Compare and contrast the actual results from both.

The Scotsman feels the second startegy is obviously the most beneficial.
207

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 15:31:07
#223

"I have answered that question for you now on 4 or 5 different occassions."

No - you have said you have 'every faith in an SNP agency' but not faith in Westminster.

You have not answered why you think I would be "barking mad" to believe a report by an SNP government agency?

If you have 'every faith' in SNP agencies why would I be "barking mad" to believe a report from an SNP agency?

Did you get confused and think the Scottish Courts Service were run by Westminster? Or are you suggesting Westminster somehow had a hand in producing their report, despite the fact that they are an SNP agency?

Embarassing...
208

GM,

27/05/2009 15:31:29
@222

now now Yeah1

you've been told before that the Courts Service is not an agency of the SNP Government. They are an agency of Government and act impartially to any political interference.

Your suggestion leads to the logical conclusion that all civil servants currently employed are agents of the Labour party which as we both know is bizarre.

Although I dont believe the conspiracy theorists, you are being obtuse in your debate with them. I think what some people are suggesting is that the courts service report could *only* come up with one outcome as there was no evidence to the contrary. That doesn't mean something untoward *didn't* happen.

Comprende?
209

GM,

27/05/2009 15:34:42
From the Scottish Courts Service website -

"The Court of Session, High Courts, Sheriff Courts and Justice of the Peace Courts are administered by the Scottish Court Service (SCS) which is an Executive Agency of Scottish Government"


Can you see any reference to the SNP there yeah1?

Do you think the courts service and judiciary would support your notion that they are an 'SNP Agency'?
210

Iainbroch,

27/05/2009 15:39:51
re222

Your putting words in my mouth suggests that the point of my post floated totally over your head.

1. Labour buried the McCrone report - fact not conspiracy thoery.

2. Labour tried to block the release of the MPs expenses - fact not conspiracy theory.

3. Labour dragged us into an illegal war and deliberately lied to us all - fact not conspiracy theory.

4 The Labour Party blocked and obstructed the Police investigation into the Cash for Honours scandal - fact not conspiracy theory.

5. Labour indulged in the practice of "secret loans and donations" - fact not conspiracy theory.

6. Labour Party has used the expenses system to prop up thier bank balances - fact not conspiracy theory.

After all that tinkering with ballots is not such a big deal for them.

It is you in trying to defend the Labour Party and the corrupt Westmidden parliament who is getting more and more ridiculous!
211

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 15:40:10
#227

The Scottish Courts Service is an agency of the Scottish Government. The Scottish Government is currently the SNP. It therefore follows that they are an agency of the Scottish SNP Government.

Anyway that is not my argument, as I have previously stated, they are theoretically impartial, so I am wondering why 'Scottish and Proud' thinks I am "barking mad" to believe an official report from them...
212

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 15:43:18
#229

"It is you in trying to defend the Labour Party and the corrupt Westmidden parliament who is getting more and more ridiculous!"

You are confused.

I am not 'trying to defend' labour.

I am defending a report from the Scottish Courts Service, an impartial agency of the Scottish SNP Government.

'Scottish and Proud' suggested I would be "barking mad" to believe their report, I was asking him or her why...
213

GM,

27/05/2009 15:50:18
@230

"The Scottish Courts Service is an agency of the Scottish Government. The Scottish Government is currently the SNP. It therefore follows that they are an agency of the Scottish SNP Government."

Nice try but not entirely correct. I can see how 'spin' is a natural reaction by any labour voter.


They are an agency of Scottish Government.
The current scottish Government is SNP led.
The two are mutually exlcusive i.e. the colour of the current political lead at Holyrood has no bearing or political influence at all on the courts service.

What you are suggesting or implying clearly is that there *is* a political link between the two which there demonstrably is not. The judiciary and courts services in the UK *pride* themselves as being free from political intereference and have occasionally blackened the eye of governments who have attempted to exert political influence.


but perhaps when you singularly fail to accept such simple points, others may very well consider you to be 'barking mad'.

Like I said, no conspiracy as far as I'm concerned and I vote SNP, but you are being obtuse as well as factually incorrect when dealing with your respondents.
214

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 15:53:19
230
YEAH
impartial, so I am wondering why 'Scottish and Proud' thinks I am "barking mad" to believe an official report from them...
-------------------------------------------------------
I have told you many occassions so have others let me refer you to post 229 Iainbroch.
That is exactly why we do not trust Westminster to interfere in anything to jusitfy their own ends
215

GM,

27/05/2009 15:54:13
@231

lol

now you are getting it...

however you still need to address the following point -
Do you think it beyond *any* doubt that there was any wrongdoing in the disappearance of court records?

100%
absolutely impossible that any shenanigans took place
guaranteed



because most sensible people will accept that although the possibility is minute, there still *exists* the possibility that something happened. Its when folks blow up that possibility to incredulous proportions that they become a bit like a tinfoil hat wearer.
216

Iainbroch,

27/05/2009 15:58:03
re233

Spoil sport - we were having such fun with him/her/them as well.
217

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 15:59:14
#235

"Do you think it beyond *any* doubt that there was any wrongdoing in the disappearance of court records?"

No, It is quite possible some shenanigans may have taken place.

However, given the choice between an official report from an impartial agency of the Scottish government, stating that there the loss of the register was not 'malicious'; and the embarassing 'MI5', 'criminal elements' conspiracies from people such as 'Scottish and British', I would be far more ready to believe the former.
218

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 27/05/2009 16:00:26
#232

You are still doing it. let me explain it simply for you.
"Unfortunately for Scotland half the people are thick as result of systemic neglect, it is not their fault, they are the living victims of what the union has caused Scotland to become."
Inference: The Union has caused half of Scottish people to be stupid and only the SNP suporters have avoided this.


"Plans to change that dynamic you will find in the SNP manifesto"
Inference; Voting SNP will make Scottish people cleverer.

The breathtaking arrogance and superiority complex turns people off voting SNP, that may not be how you mean it but that is the way it comes across.
219

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 16:04:03
#234

Okay I'm starting to believe that you do actually lack mental capacity.

You have STILL not explained why you think I am "barking mad" to believe an official report from an IMPARTIAL agency of the SCOTTISH SNP GOVERNMENT???

This agency has NOTHING to do with Westminster - it is an agency of the SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT.

Why am I "barking mad" to believe a report from them?

It is fairly clear that you got confused and somehow thought the Scottish Courts Service were run by Westminster so I will let the matter rest, there is no point arguing with someone who clearly does not have the mental capacity to coherently argue back.
220

frank mcbride,

lusitania 27/05/2009 16:09:15
#212, Yeah 1.

You say that the over-arching aim of the SNP is Independence, and that all other policies are "just" add-ons.

Could the same not be said of all other Parties?

Labour: The redistribution of wealth.

Tories: The furtherance of a free-market economy.

Greens: The environment.

I find it interesting that you would reject voting SNP in favour of voting Green which is, most definitely, a single issue Party.
221

frank mcbride,

lusitania 27/05/2009 16:10:18
#241 should have been addressed to #211.
222

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 16:11:08
#238

"The breathtaking arrogance and superiority complex turns people off voting SNP"

Quite right. Luckily for the SNP the upper echelons of their party do not display quite as much arrogance and superiority as some of their supporters on this forum.

Calling anyone who does not vote SNP 'stupid', 'thick', 'traitors' or 'quislings' - as many SNP supporters do on here, is not going to make those people vote SNP.

Instead of disparaging those people in Scotland who don't vote SNP you should be trying to show them the advantages you think the SNP has, and encouraging them to vote for the SNP, rather than criticising and castigating that for not voting SNP.

Some of the SNP supporters on here are quite evangelical and fanatical about supporting the SNP - like those bible belt preachers who believe anyone who isn't fanatically christian will burn in hell and is stupid or 'evil'. Its actually quite worrying...
223

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 16:14:56
235 Ianbroch I refer yuo to post 238 enjoy!!LOL
224

Sgian Achlais,

27/05/2009 16:16:32
201
Youhoo,27/05/2009 14:37:00
#200 Scittish and Broad,

I am open minded on Independence, a sqing voter if you will. Can you let me know why Indepence is better and how it would be funded?.


============================

Kimba,

Q1. Why is Independence better

Scotland is a country and Sovereign people and have been for over 1000 years. If we are a democratic country we would be able to elect and vote out our own government.

Independence allows the voters of Scotland to choose the government based on the votes cast. Currently we can only participate in the UK elections and see which Government the English have elected. Some times we vote the same way and other times we vote for different parties.

Now being 10 times smaller than England we need different issues addressed economically and as a country we also lean more left of centre.

Basically independence will allow us to support or change a government based on our needs.

Q2. How will it be Funded ?

By Taxes.
225

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 16:18:47
#241

"You say that the over-arching aim of the SNP is Independence, and that all other policies are "just" add-ons."

The reason the SNP were created was to try and gain independence for Scotland. If Scotland were already independent the SNP would not exist. Independence is their one, over-arching ambition and policy.

"I find it interesting that you would reject voting SNP in favour of voting Green which is, most definitely, a single issue Party."

I reject voting SNP because their one policy is not something I particularly care about. Whilst the environment is admittedly the Green's main policy, it is something far more important and relevant to the modern world than whether a country is or is not independent.
226

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 16:25:51
#244

"235 Ianbroch I refer yuo to post 238 enjoy!!LOL"

I'm glad you are able to laugh at yourself in the face of your own humiliation. If only everyone had such a lack of pride and was able to do so.
227

Sgian Achlais,

27/05/2009 16:29:10
243
Yeah1,27/05/2009 16:11:08

I will break this to you as gently as possible.

Are you sitting down. Good.

The current Labour Party machine(no blame on the original socialist party of working people with values and truth that once was Labour)

The current Labour party machine have already proved they are capable of illegal wars, corruption, bribery, fraud, tax evasion, money laundering, murder, lies, deception, voter fraud via postal votes, manipulation of press, etc, etc.

Do you really think it would be to difficult for the party of political power in Scotland for the last 50 years to have a friend/comrade/colleague/ etc facilitate the disappearance of some paperwork.

It would take only one person to be involved this would not require the collusion of the entire Crown office.

I do not doubt for one second it is possible and practical for supporters of Labour to have decided this would be the best way of remaining in power and saving the PM.

Where was Grahamski that day? Anything for the Party and the Leader!
228

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 16:33:27
#245

"Scotland is a country and Sovereign people and have been for over 1000 years."

This question of countries and sovereign nations is largely irrelevant. The human race has been around for 125,000 years - nations and countries have been part of humanity for a tiny percentage of that time period.

Lets look at an area of the UK that is the same population size as Scotland - Yorkshire.

Yorkshire also "needs different issues addressed economically" from the rest of the UK, and it also "leans more left of centre".

Yorkshire also has a culture and identity that is distinct from the rest of the UK.

Why shouldn't Yorkshire also become independent?

Independence for Yorkshire would also allow it to "support or change a government based on its needs".
229

frank mcbride,

lusitania 27/05/2009 16:36:45
#246, Yeah 1.

Why do you continue to dissemble?

"I reject voting SNP because THEIR ONE POLICY.........."

The above statement is a blatant mistruth: please read the SNP Manifestos.

There is no doubt that the SNP overarching policy is Independence, but the practicality is that it advances policy, for government, based on the needs and aspirations of people of Scotland, both nationally and internationally.
230

Alan B,

27/05/2009 16:39:01
#Yeah1

Why would you reject voting snp because they advocate independence but would support green who also advocate independence?

From an environmental points of view with the snp support for renewables and anti nuclear you could view them along with lib dems as the most environmental of the big 4 parties. (if that is an important factor to you).
231

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 16:40:32
#248

"Do you really think it would be to difficult for the party of political power in Scotland for the last 50 years to have a friend/comrade/colleague/ etc facilitate the disappearance of some paperwork."

No of course not - it is quite possible someone may have made the report 'disappear'.

However, the fact remains that an official report from the IMPARTIAL Scottish Courts Service found there was no "malicious intent" in the disappearance of the register - until some evidence to prove otherwise is uncovered that is what I will believe.

Or arre you suggesting that the entire Scottish Courts Service is part of the 'labour party machine'?

Are you suggesting that an agency of the Scottish SNP Government is so infiltrated by the 'labour party machine' that it can force through a report covering up the disappearance of the register?

Don't you think that the SNP would have paid very close attention to how the report was put together by their own Scottish government agency? If the register really had been deliberately lost the SNP would have been all over it like a rash.
232

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 16:44:14
#251

"Why would you reject voting snp because they advocate independence but would support green who also advocate independence?"

I am voting for the Greens at the Euros - the independence question is not really relevant to the Euro elections.

Anyway, whilst the greens advocate independence it is not their 'be-all and end-all', it is not their one, over-riding policy - they, as I am, are more concerned with the environment than independence.

Independence is a minor part of the green's overall manifesto, just as the environment is a minor part of the SNP's manifesto.
233

Alan B,

27/05/2009 16:46:24
#Yeah1

"This question of countries and sovereign nations is largely irrelevant. "

It is about democracy. The concent of people living within a geographical area to decide what policies they want regarding economics, public services, approach to the environment etc.

Of course because of historical reason we have developed round the nation state and as such that has a bearing on how political decisions and grouping of people are done. Obviously the eu breaks down barriers to the nation state within europe and pushes regionalisation.

To a large extent if you are internationalist in your approach you will see the eu as superceding the uk union as the future.

As for yorkshire. Yorkshire would have benefited greatly by having a federal england with powers devolved. England has suffered as the uk from severe over centralisation and the idea london is the centre of the universe with the uk run on aa london first basis resulting in the north of england being neglected.

Countries such as germany, australia, switzerland and the US have all benefited from a decentralised federal structre rather than the centralised uk/french approach.
234

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 16:47:02
#250

"I reject voting SNP because THEIR ONE POLICY.........."
The above statement is a blatant mistruth: please read the SNP Manifestos."

Ok let me rephrase: "I reject voting SNP because their one MAIN, OVERARCHING policy is independence", which is not something I particularly care about one way or the other.

Happy now?
235

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 16:47:21
247 Yeah / or whatever ids you have ,or had
#You are the one today that has been humiliated and found wanting.
Your supposed support of the Greens is as we all know a big whopper.
ANY green supporter I have encountered does not have the spite ,bile and aggression you aptly display on here.
On the contrary they tend to be more of your single issue independently minded souls,courteous and tolerant of all shades of opinion.
Their desire for Independence is not their main thrust however it is a plank of their offerring.
Your absolute intolerance and distortion of the SNP and SNP policy ,allied to your defence of The Labour Party and Westminster prove to me,and no doubt many others on here your dishonesty.
Funnily enough never ,ever have I seen you ,the lover of the Green Party make comments on any green issues on this thread except on an nuclear one where you were advocating the Labour Party policy of nuclear power
stations .
Strange that for a "Green Man".
Unlike a lot of the saddos on here AM2 springs to mind I do not collect and store every post.
I now wish I had to expose you for the hypocritical liar you most certainly are.

I am a very tolerant person and can accept anyones political or religious views .
I may disagree with them but I defend their right ot hold those beliefs.
What I cannot tolerate are liars like you ,who are too ashamed or prefer to pretend to be neutral in the hope your attacks on the SNP gain more credibility.
You sir are a charlatan!!!
236

frank mcbride,

lusitania 27/05/2009 16:47:35
#252, Yeah 1.

You seem to have great faith in official reports from Government agencies.

What is your opinion on the Met. Police enquiry into "Cash for Peerages", "the De Menendes shooting";
The Hutton enquiry?
237

Alan B,

27/05/2009 16:55:38
#Yeah1

How would you order the big 4 scottish parties in environmental terms? (based on the greens approach


238

pwd,

Borders 27/05/2009 16:59:36
# 46

"Before we start electing the SNP to office, let us not forget that Alex Salmond's response to the expense claims scandal was that he planned to do absolutely nothing."

He and other SNP members are very quiet about the expenses scandal. Why? They cannot openly/volubly exploit it because they are in the trough right up to their eyeballs. No doubt they will gain at the next election, however, and Labour deserves all it gets after years of duplicitous, dysfunctional, inept and corrupt government. That does not mean a permanent transfer of Scottish support to the Brigadoon nationalist cause.
239

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 17:02:02
#256

"Your supposed support of the Greens is as we all know a big whopper."

As I have already stated: If I planned to vote labour, Lib Dems, Tories or anyone else I would quite happily admit it. You are welcome to join me in the polling booth and see exactly who I vote for if you are so disbelieving.

1. If I supposedly 'still believe in labour' as you suggest, why would I deny voting for them?

"Your absolute intolerance and distortion of the SNP and SNP policy ,allied to your defence of The Labour Party and Westminster prove to me,and no doubt many others on here your dishonesty."

2. Where have I displayed any 'intolerance' or 'distortion' of the SNP or their policies on this forum? The only intolerance I can see on here is from those people calling non-SNP voters 'stupid' or 'traitors'.

3. Where have I defended either the labour party or Westminster? The only thing I have defended here is an official report from a SCOTTISH SNP GOVERNMENT agency

Perhaps if I repeat myself a third time it will finally sink in:

JUST BECAUSE I DO NOT VOTE SNP DOES NOT MEAN I AUTOMATICALLY SUPPORT LABOUR OR UNIONISM

Is it really that hard for you to understand???
240

S.M.D.,

EH 27/05/2009 17:05:27
Let's face it, it were the Tories, who started the boom-bust .
It was them, who made sure, that no council housing was able to be build,but most of it got sold off with the money going to Westminster to pay for needless wars...etc
It was them, who started unfair tax systems in Scotland, before England.
It was them, who voted against devolution,but then were quite happy to have MSP's sitting in the parliament.
It is them, who do NOT ever believe in an independent Scotland...they will ALWAYS favour the union.
It was them, who didn't have the courage to vote AGAINST the trams!
It is them, who have got high expenses as well,but are trying to hide them.

Can we REALLY trust the Tory party?
241

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 17:09:47
#256

And yet again you have STILL not explained why you think I am "barking mad" to believe an official report from an IMPARTIAL agency of the SCOTTISH SNP GOVERNMENT???

Referring me to posts about corruption in Westminster are irrelevant - This agency has NOTHING to do with Westminster - it is an agency of the SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT.

Why am I "barking mad" to believe a report from them?

Why not just admit that you got confused and somehow thought the Scottish Courts Service were run by Westminster, which would explain your "barking mad" statement?
242

Alan B,

27/05/2009 17:11:15
#259 pwd

Not really true. The snp and lib dems have long advocated openess regarding expenses over the past yrs, but it was labour (and the tories) that have fought keep the expenses secret.

Labour even taking matter to court to prevent publication.

It is not the snp fault that the scotsman do not lead with the snp and lib dems pushing for openness while labour hide the expenses corruption.

The snp would be silly to gloat over the scandal as there would be no benefit. Much better to let the media highlight the abuses. The snp also have to deal with labour dominated tv politicial news in scotland equating a corkscrew or chocolate bar to tax evasion and corruption.

The snp have also not been quiet as they have advocated westminster copy the holyrood model.

I think you also have to understand salmond approach is always to push the positive and avoid the negative. (different from many of the snp supporters). While westminster party politics is about negativity aand negative campaigns.


243

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 17:11:46
260 Yeah
Is it really that hard for you to understand???
======================================================

no but it is impossible to believe
Goodnight one and all
244

Observer,,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 17:12:33
''Let's face it, it were the Tories, who started the boom-bust .''

Precisely. S.M.D. The roots of this economic meltdown were laid in 1979 not 1997. All Labour did was to carry on where the Tories left off, and accelerate the process.

No we most certainly cannot trust the Tories. They will - as ever - look after ''their own'' and that isn't your average working class Scot is it.

But disaffected Labour voters are hardly likely to vote Tory and what is the point in voting Lib Dem. So hopefully the major beneficiaries will be the SNP.



245

TWC,

exLabour 27/05/2009 17:17:36
## Yeah1,

Independence is not my preference either but in the absence of anyone else offering Fiscal Autonomy I am forced to vote for the Nats, nowhere moreso than in Europe.
246

Sgian Achlais,

27/05/2009 17:26:09
260
Yeah1,27/05/2009 17:02:02
#256

"Your supposed support of the Greens is as we all know a big whopper."

As I have already stated: If I planned to vote labour, Lib Dems, Tories or anyone else I would quite happily admit it. You are welcome to join me in the polling booth and see exactly who I vote for if you are so disbelieving.

1. If I supposedly 'still believe in labour' as you suggest, why would I deny voting for them?


===============================

Who have you met recently that would actually ADMIT voting for them!!!



247

brownlie,

27/05/2009 17:27:07
Yeah 1

I note that you claim that you do not care whether Scotland is independent or not but your criticisms seem to be directly and consistently aimed at the SNP. I do not recall you posting criticisms of the UK Government even though there is plenty of scope to do so.

What I do recall is an occasion where you posting under another name as well as Yeah1 on this site to bolster your arguments as Yeah1 and you were forced to admit doing so.

What you appear to be successful in doing today, and not for the first time, is distracting from the subject of this article.
248

Alan B,

27/05/2009 17:27:26
#Observer

Boom and bust in the uk is rooted far before 79. The uk has been renouned for boom and bust since the 2nd world war where governments routinely lower interest rates before an election created a boom and then had to enduce a recession to dampen the inevitable inflation.

The failure in Keynesian economics in the uk was due to the failure of the idea of a trade of between inflation and unemployment ie in the late 60 we had rising inflation and unemployment detailed in economic terms by the phillips curve.

Also add to the fact we certainly had bust in the 70s if no boom. Just 25% inflation, being labelled the sick man of europe in economic terms, industry dreadfully inefficient and propped up by huge subsidies, industry ruined by unions on a political mission routinely bringing down governments and subverting the democractic mandate of these governments. And a fiscal position that meant the uk had to go cap in hand to the imf and ended up with labour being forced to introduce our only ever cut in nhs funding.

For all the mistakes that thatcher made economically i think it is seriously difficult to blame labour shear incompentence on what thatcher did 20yrs before.



249

pwd,

Borders 27/05/2009 17:27:54
263 AlanB

I agree there would be little point in gloating, but mainly because the (labour dominated?) media is doing the job for them. There has been vey little reporting of SNP corruption because the bigger parties have, deservedly, got most of the limelight.

I don't recognise the description of Salmond in your last paragraph but I don't have the energy to continue, having just read with dismay the report on Scottish abortion figures for 2008. Gosh, what kind of people are we?
250

frank mcbride,

lusitania 27/05/2009 17:33:45
#268, brownlie.

Don't be so hard on Yeah1.

He has been quite instructive today; he has given us further insight into Unionist, particularly NuLab, dissembling. More insight into NuLab smear tactics and straight-forward lies.

He has completed a "master class", in Unionist propaganda.
251

Observer,,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 17:34:18
269 Boom and bust is inevitable in a capitalist economy. You show me a country where the trade cycle does not apply.

However looking at this particular one - it started in the Thatcherite era with her ''property owning'' democracy. Now if it wasn't a speculative bubble building up around house prices then it would no doubt have built up around something else. But the facts are that the move to financialisation as opposed to manufacturing industry, the over reliance on debt and cheap credit, and overarching everything the property pyramid scheme, was not the invention of New Labour, although they took the brakes off and made everything far worse.
252

Edward,

27/05/2009 17:34:31
IN CASE ANYONE IS UNDER ANY MISSCOMPREHENSION.
THE PERSON USING THE ID OF YEAH1 IS ACTUALLY A LABOUR STOOGE
HE/SHE IS ON REGULARLY AND ALWAYS TAKES THE SAME ANTI SNP STANCE AN IS ALWAYS PUSHING SUPPORT FOR LABOUR COVERTLY
I SUSPECT HE/SHE IS PART OF LABOUR'S RED RAG PROJECT TO PLACE SMEAR AND NEGATIVETY IN THE RUN UP TO ELECTIONS
253

Ananurhing,

27/05/2009 17:37:20
Yeah1

Have you addressed Frank McBride's points at #164 yet?
Seems fairly central to your argument.
254

Alan B,

27/05/2009 17:42:14
#pwd

"but mainly because the (labour dominated?) media is doing the job for them. "

It is not the labour dominated media but the tory print media down south lead by the telegraph.

From what i have read i do not think the snp have been involved in the principle corruption here which is around property ie flipping, claiming mortgages on homees while having grace and faavour homes and in darling case then renting it out, using relatives homes to abuse the 2nd home allowance and the evasion /avoidance of tax. It is labour who seem to also have avoided tax by getting the tax payer to wrongly pay for their tax advice and then illegally not pay the tax on that benefit in kind.
255

frank mcbride,

lusitania 27/05/2009 17:54:02
#274, ananuhring.

Yeah1 will not answer my points, nor will he answer my #257.

He is a Unionist dissembler in the same mould as AM2. But, as I said earlier, he is informative in that he gives us insight into the smears and lies that NuLab, in particular, are likely to use, from now until the Westminster election.
256

Sgian Achlais,

27/05/2009 17:56:20
Yeah1,

I used to be a Labour Voter a few years back. When I started reading and posting comments on the Scotsman website I was undecided. I have always supported the notion of Independence I just did not believe it was possible.

There are many pictures of me in my Youth in the bygone days wrapped in a Union Flag on the way to Ibrox with a heart full of sectarianism and unionism but I was still proudly Scottish(I thought). Although I did occasionally cringe about tartan, shortbread and braveheart.

Then I started to read history and research the past and gradually more and more I was able to bring balance to the unequal education provided by the state. I learned I came from a country with much to be proud of that had many significant influences on the world.

I am now an SNP activist, member and voter.

On this forum there are many who declare SNP support and yes at times we can be emotional and dramatic.

I love my country, I support my country and I find it embarrassing that many of my countrymen/women prefer to be governed from a parliament sitting in another country.

I have often referred to Unionists as quislings and traitors as these are the most accurate words to describe a person who sacrifices his own peoples interests for personal gain or cowardice. What would you prefer to be called?

Many people believed we would never achieve independence and many more have been educated to believe Scottish people are singularly unable to govern themselves.

I do not judge you for your flawed world view as I once stood where you do.....Although I was in Scotland where as you are now in London.... collecting hireling traitors wages.




257

Time to Show Courage,

27/05/2009 17:58:27
#246 Yeah1
Whilst I agree that you are right in saying that sometimes the discussions get a bit heated on here, you must be blind to staete that the SNP are a single issue party. Their main aim may be indepenence, but the have a long list of other aims that they hope to implement to prove to the electorate that they can govern until they acheive that. In the meantime, the two parties who stand to have the biggest influence on UK voters' lives (90% of them south of the border) display a breath-taking display of greed, lies, fraud and disrespect for the financial hardship being felt by their potential voters...(again, 90% of which are south of the border). Are either of the two parties in question interested in the small minority of voters' plights in Scotland? Is it on their radar at all at the moment? I think not. They are all squirming around trying either to get out of the noose themselves, or to ensure that their rivals neck is tightly surrounded by one.

Back at the ranch in Scotland, the SNP has only to do what they have always done. Put Scottish jobs, the Scottish economy, the Scottish people first. That is why they are proving so popular at present. Westminster is a mess, Scotland is not, and by virtue of population numbers, it never will be, a priority to the two biggest UK parties. Make no mistake, the SNP will make the day, they cannot fail. Labour and Conservative are doing all the hard work. Salmond needs only keep a steady hand on the tiller, keep Scotland's interests at heart, and point out the corruption and greed exhibited by the London based parties. Job done.

After independence, there will be other Scottish political parties, some with Labour values, some with conservative. The difference will be that they will be 100% accountable to the Scottish people. Not 10% as they are today.

Wake up, smell the haggis, and scrape off the spongers.

OK??
258

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 27/05/2009 18:01:31
#277
"have often referred to Unionists as quislings and traitors as these are the most accurate words to describe a person who sacrifices his own peoples interests for personal gain or cowardice. What would you prefer to be called?"

Another one it'awesome, disagree and you are a traitor, a quisling a fifth columnist or merely too stupid to understand.
259

Sgian Achlais,

27/05/2009 18:02:14
276
frank mcbride,lusitania 27/05/2009 17:54:02
#274, ananuhring.

Yeah1 will not answer my points, nor will he answer my #257.

He is a Unionist dissembler in the same mould as AM2. But, as I said earlier, he is informative in that he gives us insight into the smears and lies that NuLab, in particular, are likely to use, from now until the Westminster election.

================================

Totally agree. We should listen to the smears and the stories as this will indicate the type of attacks they will launch come the GE.

People like Yeah1 are most likely Scots who have lived and worked in London and this is were the smugness of we know best and everyone who disagrees with Londonscentic view point is a village idiot/angry villagers. They may even still be in London trying hard to hide their Scottishness.

People like Grahamski are most likely Union shop stewards who have put so much into the cause that they cannot accept they backed the wrong side and they must now fight on. He seems a genuine red communist unlike alot of the rent a mob Nu Labour types who just like power. This does not mean he is not an @rse. Just that he is genuine in his stupidity.
260

Sgian Achlais,

27/05/2009 18:05:25
279
All Politicians are the same,Scotland 27/05/2009 18:01:31
#277
"have often referred to Unionists as quislings and traitors as these are the most accurate words to describe a person who sacrifices his own peoples interests for personal gain or cowardice. What would you prefer to be called?"

Another one it'awesome, disagree and you are a traitor, a quisling a fifth columnist or merely too stupid to understand.


======================================

Please do provide an alternative word to use that you prefer to describe someone who prefers his nation to be governed by its imperialistic neighbour with little democratic voice and no ability to change governments.
261

Sgian Achlais,

27/05/2009 18:10:09
279
All Politicians are the same,Scotland 27/05/2009 18:01:31
#277
"have often referred to Unionists as quislings and traitors as these are the most accurate words to describe a person who sacrifices his own peoples interests for personal gain or cowardice. What would you prefer to be called?"

Another one it'awesome, disagree and you are a traitor, a quisling a fifth columnist or merely too stupid to understand.


================================

Do not blame me for the the language options available in English.

traitor
Noun
a person who betrays friends, country, a cause, etc. [Latin tradere to hand over]
262

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

27/05/2009 18:11:10
~67 Sedov,

I salute your indefatigability...While ROFLMAO.
263

Time to Show Courage,

27/05/2009 18:11:58
Yeah1 (all posts)... but particularly # 243

"Calling anyone who does not vote SNP 'stupid', 'thick', 'traitors' or 'quislings' - as many SNP supporters do on here, is not going to make those people vote SNP.

Instead of disparaging those people in Scotland who don't vote SNP you should be trying to show them the advantages you think the SNP has, and encouraging them to vote for the SNP,"

See above for an answer to your point quoted above on showing advantages the SNP has...

and as for disparaging comments, here are a few carefully chosen ones just for you. Your posts above justify them:

Vaccuous, unscholarly, obtuse, blinkered, fixated..... but polite I suppose.
264

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 27/05/2009 18:15:00
#280

surely the reformed "rangers fan" who now vents his hatred at "quislings" and lectures from the "high" ground of a convert is an invention of SNP central Office.

Begone Troll
265

frank mcbride,

lusitania 27/05/2009 18:15:57
#269, Alan B.

Observer is correct in saying that the present situation is a direct result of Thatcher's policies. She introduced free market capitalism and began the process, accelerated by Blair & Brown, of deregulation. She also sold the people the lie of a "property owning democracy".

These brought us the "credit bubble" and the "housing bubble" which have led individuals, and companies, to unneccessary bankrupcy.

To blame socialism, for this problem, by saying that it was caused by the previous Labour Government is to fail to understand socialism.

The Wilson/Callaghan Governments were no more socialist than that of MacMillan: the only socialist Government that the UK has had was that of 1946. It was also the most progressive Government that the UK has ever had.
266

Ananurhing,

27/05/2009 18:18:36
#276 frank mcbride

Or mine at #142.

Have you noticed recently how many unionists won't admit to being unionist? They're either "undecided" or "a floater", or "Ah'm no tellin'".

Seems to be a new tactical ploy. Fact avoidance! Along with truth, tax, principles, voting registers etc.
It's as if they feel some reflected shame associated with their cause.

"I'm not a unionist, but Alex Salmond's a corrupt fat necked numpty!"

Yawn!!!



267

Publius,

London 27/05/2009 18:21:46
(1) Are there any MPs from Scotland who aren't on the take? There's Darling with his houses and the Tory who puts a wreath for dead soldiers down to expenses. Even Alex Salmond claims hundreds for his food. (How dare he?)
And what about the Scots who have seats in England - Michael Gove, Ian Gibson?

(2) The nats on this board keep writing about quislings. The true quisling is Alex Salmond. Just like Vidkun Quisling himself, he presides over a country controlled by another.
268

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 27/05/2009 18:24:57
#282

You see " a person who betrays a country" many would see you as a traitor to Britain. A country that has exsisted for over 300 years longer than Germany, Belgium, Holland and Italy".
269

Yeah1,

27/05/2009 18:27:33
#268

"I note that you claim that you do not care whether Scotland is independent or not but your criticisms seem to be directly and consistently aimed at the SNP. I do not recall you posting criticisms of the UK Government even though there is plenty of scope to do so."

I find it more constructive to criticise the SNP. Largely because their supporters on here seem to be far more fanatical, evangelical and entrenched in their viewpoints. Constructive criticism is healthy, fanaticism and a closed mind is not.

Plus they seem unable to accept their party ever does or has done anything wrong or made any mistakes - that is not a healty perspective to take.

"What you appear to be successful in doing today, and not for the first time, is distracting from the subject of this article."

I originally responded to comments from someone like 'Scottish and Proud' which were unrelated to the article. If you look at my post at #165 you will see I attempted to return to the subject of the article by discussing Darling's prospects in Edinburgh SW.
270

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 18:55:16
290 YeahI originally responded to comments from someone like 'Scottish and Proud' which were unrelated to the article. If you look at my post at #165 you will see I attempted to return to the subject of the article by discussing Darling's prospects in Edinburgh SW.
=======================================================Seems I am not the only person to see right through you .!!!
let me help you with Darling his tea is oot along with a majority of the bloodsuckers of the Labour Party , Scotlandshire Branch.

Massive gains for SNP , good gains for Tories ,Libs few losses .
Happy now troll?
271

frank mcbride,

lusitania 27/05/2009 18:58:43
#289, All politicians................

Clever! But not clever enough!!!

Freedom fighters would, perhaps, be more appropriate.

After all. Scotland had existed, as a recognisable country, for almost 900yrs, before the bought Union - at the very least, for 700yrs.
272

frank mcbride,

lusitania 27/05/2009 19:08:45
#290, Yeah1.

You, again, are dissembling.

You have, so far, refused to reply to my questioning your assertions @ #257 & 276.

Why is this? Is it that your assertions are unfounded?

I would be delighted to debate with you, but your seem unable, or unwilling, to substantiate your claims.
273

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 27/05/2009 19:15:54
#292

Prussia was involved in the "great game" within europe for hundreds of years and fought at Waterloo yet is now quite happily part of Germany. Things change we have 300 years of shared history, language values and culture. Get over it.
274

William of the Clan MacKay,

27/05/2009 19:24:36
Fire away at ever cowardly Scot who aligns themselves w/Labour. They're nothing but traitors to Scotland!!!!!
275

frank mcbride,

lusitania 27/05/2009 19:26:06
#294, All politicians..............

Perhaps, if the UK had been a Federal state, like Germany, Spain, Australia, Canada, the USA, there would have been no problem.

It's not, so there is!!!

Perhaps you should live with that.
276

frank mcbride,

lusitania 27/05/2009 19:30:16
#295, William............

They, the vast majority, are not traitors; misguided, yes, but not traitors.
277

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 27/05/2009 19:30:35
The nation state really came into being in 1648 with the treaty of Westphalia after the end of the 30 years war. This led progessively over the next 200 years to the merging of the smaller countries to form larger nation states. Have a look at the map of europe pose westphalia and see how many countries there were. do you want to go back to that or is Scotland a special case?
278

Findlay Thompson,

Skeabost Bridge, Isle of Skye 27/05/2009 19:32:36
Check the Johnson Press poll posters

@ 19:35 GMT 27/05/09, 80% of People with access to this site wanted a general election.
279

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

27/05/2009 19:32:37
#289
All Politicians are the same

One of the main things that separates a Nationalist from a Unionist is CHOICE.

At no point in living memory has there been a Political Nationalist majority in Scotland and when anyone who is over fifty cast their first vote, the SNP were little more than a fringe minority.

Most of us were brought up to consider their selves Scottish, but within the context of UK political Sovereignty.

Nationalists are people who have CHOSE to put Scotland First and consequently vote SNP...I seriously doubt if there are more than half a dozen Unionists out there who made an elective CHOICE to become one, in fact most were unaware that they were Unionists, until the SNP became an electoral force, threatening to make a breakthrough.

Most Unionism is merely a side effect of supporting a political Party that is essentially English, therefore has a Scottish Branch that Supports the continuance of the Union.

280

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 27/05/2009 19:36:37
#296

Spain is a quasi Federal style of Government which was in fact studied by the Scottish government post devolution as thye suffer from the same imbalances of regional power as the UK. italy and Belgium are not either. US Canada and Australia are irrelevant.
281

Findlay Thompson,

27/05/2009 19:36:49
298

Please don't bring religion into the debate.
282

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 27/05/2009 19:39:48
#300

Do you actually have a point to make? The point I am making is that Scotland is by no means unuique in its position as is often argued by the Nats.
283

Sgian Achlais,

27/05/2009 19:52:15
285All Politicians are the same, Scotland 27/05/2009 18:15:00
#280

surely the reformed "rangers fan" who now vents his hatred at "quislings" and lectures from the "high" ground of a convert is an invention of SNP central Office.

Begone Troll

=================================

I never vented any hatred at anyone for their political beliefs. Many of my bested friends in the whole world are unionists. I do poke fun at them though.

But more seriously I am what I said. I suppose it is an age gap. For the younger generation who can define ourselves as we see the world and through our own learning. I know many more young folk like myself who used to play the sectarian game but who wants to fight over which church we do not attend.

The older generation have been too long in the mould for some to change.

Like it or not the younger generation like myself will demand change. Unlike you who resigns himself to the Ranters position that it is all pointless, all politicians are the same, what is the point of voting.

It is exactly that attitude that has allowed the corruption and lack of democratic representation of Scotland at government level.
284

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 19:55:55
303 I am sorry I am missing your point could you please explain to me what difference this makes to the argument of status quo ,or Independence.
cheers
285

Sgian Achlais,

27/05/2009 19:56:12
303All Politicians are the same, Scotland 27/05/2009 19:39:48
#300

Do you actually have a point to make? The point I am making is that Scotland is by no means unuique in its position as is often argued by the Nats.

=============================

It is Unique to Me. It is my country and I would wish to see all the members of the country with voting rights the chance to change the government to one of its choice. Not merely await the English result to see what flavour of London party I will pay my taxes too.
286

frank mcbride,

lusitania 27/05/2009 19:56:46
#303, All politicians...................

Unionist apologists argue that the people of Scotland are, uniquely, unable to govern ourselves. Why should that be?
287

Sgian Achlais,

27/05/2009 20:34:15
308 Hagbard Celine, 27/05/2009 20:28:46

....To me we *do* govern ourselves, in conjunction with the rest of our fellow Britons.

And we're better off doing it that way.

Got it yet?

===============================

I am struggling with the concept to be honest. Please explain the benefits of being governed by people who could not point out your constituency on a map.

Our English friends have enough to think about looking after the needs of 50 million people. It is the least we can do to help them out by taking care of ourselves.

How old were you when you left your mothers home?

You have moved out?
288

Observer,,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 20:40:05
308 Well you would say that - you're a Tory. The vast majority of Scots are not. And yet by all indications we are set to experience another Tory Govt in Westminster which the majority of Scots didn't vote for.

We used to call it the democratic deficit. People of my age who lived through the Thatcher years (who we didn't vote for in vast numbers) will not be happy to live through that again.

Got it yet ?
289

Observer,,

Glasgow 27/05/2009 20:43:41
There is a political divergence North and South of the border - and in my view it's irreversable. Either we can hang around having constitutional crises on a regular basis, or shake hands and call it a day.

I haven't yet heard a credible explanation from a Unionist as to how a Union between two countries who now consistently vote for different Governments is supposed to work.

290

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 27/05/2009 21:27:09
The political divergence doesn't only happem at the border. it is a divergence across geopolitical boundaries and has far more to do with demographics than lines on a map. The Industrial north of england votes very much in line with central Scotland. rural communities in England are more likely to vote Lib Dem. the only anomaly is the Scottish revulsoion towards the Conservative Party which is now fading and the presence of a single issue seperatist party.
291

Grant,

Edinburgh, Scotland 27/05/2009 21:38:29
#312 The political divergence is defined by the differing civic institutions that exist in Scotland and England. The little things like the education system, the health service - but crucially the legal system. The existence of such differences necessitates a different political culture and a different political structure to service them.

So, in many regards the only political difference that matters is the structural, underlying one and that is between Scotland and the rest of the UK (and, for completeness, the rest of the world).
292

Nevsky;,

Moscow 27/05/2009 21:42:08
312 Same*

Not quite as they are in government in Scotland and doing a fairly good job.

Not corrupt, not under the yolk of the 'honours for servces' system and for a party taking power for the first time in history a very impresive record.

The SNP are indeed a 1 issue party and that is the Scottish people..you seem to miss the point that this is reflected in their popularity boosted by the decline of a disgraced and corrupt (as it has always beencentral belt clique) Labour party and irrelevant Tory party...starting to understand yet?
293

Nevsky;,

Moscow 27/05/2009 21:46:34
Scotland is developing a distinct politcal alternative which reflects the growing aspirations of the Scottish people.

Unionists just don't get it!

It's not about the SNP or the Union it is about what is best for Scotland and the growing confidence in the electorate to obtain real power..God knows it has taken long enough for them to realise that Scotland has and never will be best served by London!
294

frank mcbride,

lusitania 27/05/2009 21:53:07
#312, All politicians...............

There is a significant difference between NE England and Scotland which you see, conviently, to have ignored.

The people of Scotland, over the past 30yrs, when given the opportunity to to vote for a different form of governance have taken it; when the same opportunity was given to the people of NE England, they rejected it.

The idea of Scottish Independence, from the Union, is as old as the Union itself - Fletcher of Saltoun, The 1820 Weavers and, very importantly, the 14 Westminster Bills (19/20th C), supported by the majority of Scottish MPs, which were defeated by the English majority.

Your internationalism does you credit but, internationalism is only as strong as its weakest nation.
295

Capital Jon,

Edinburgh 27/05/2009 22:05:00
We all want change but I'm afraid despite everything, Labour might hang on unless the oppostion parties target their resources effectively. The Tories could unseat Darling, and what a feather in their cap that would be, but not if they waste resources in Edinburgh South where the Lib Dems are best placed to unseat Griffiths - an increase in the Tory vote there will still keep them in 3rd place but they could help Griffiths keep his seat (no wonder he keeps trying to talk up their vote!). There are other seats where the SNP are best placed to defeat Labour.
296

Iainbroch,

27/05/2009 22:19:28
Re247/243

A dose of humiliation does us all a little good. How lucky you must be never to have been humbled in your life! I am humbled on a daily basis. As is the capacity to laugh at ones own follies with similar frequency. Clearly you do not suffer from such having to eat humble pie! It is a trait common amongst arrogant Unionists.

It is why the Unionist vote is in decline and will continue to do so whatever. It is one thing to call someone a quisling but it is something else to call someone a scrounger or a subsidy junkie or any of the other pejorative labels that have been applied to Scots over the years – not by the SNP I hasten to add. I do happen to think that the Scots have what it takes to be a very successful Independent Nation – it is clear from your posts that you do not. So may I ask who is it that is insulting who? Who is it that is suffering from breathtaking arrogance and a superiority complex? Is your name Gordon Brown or Tony Blair by any chance?

It is very easy in heated debate to get angry. Anger borne out of the fact that Scots have been ripped off, duped by, lied to and cheated by a corrupt and venal Brit establishment and by the flunkies of that establishment passing themselves off as honourable people at Westmidden. It is the experience of my entire life!

If in that debate some of us who believe in Scottish Independence happen to start throwing the thick, the quislings or on the take barbs at Unionists then don’t be surprised. If the barbs happen to hurt or offend then perhaps it is because in your heart you know them to be true and the barbs have hit their intended targets. I do accept that it is difficult to break the addictions of a lifetime or indeed of generations in supporting what was the once the Peoples Party. How it broke my father’s heart to see what happened to his Party – the Party of Bevan and others who actually believed in something more than their own personal gain!

However he also understood the need for fully
297

Iainbroch,

27/05/2009 22:22:12
However he also understood the need for fully functioning adults to stand on their own two feet, he understood the need for Scotland to stand on its own two feet. The modern Labour Party would have us crawling about in the gutter along with them. When I witnessed Lieboars Westmidden MPs along with some Tories and Fib Dums laughing at the misfortune of institutions in difficulty, they were laughing at people who were going to lose their jobs, their homes and much else besides then I knew that there was nothing the Unionists would not stoop to save their scrawny necks and their flexible friend the expense account.

So if I should happen to refer to any Westmidden Unionist mouthpiece as a quisling, thick, gutless or corrupted then it is very much deserved. Oh I don’t vote SNP – too pro Europe for my taste. So don’t confuse SNP and non SNP voters as not all supporters of Scottish Independence vote SNP and it does present a quandary when it comes to voting.

However I will vote as it was a hard won right by previous generations. I do however expect that any elections will be truly democratic and honest. Can you honestly sit at your PC and tell me that any election overseen by this rotten and corrupt Westmidden Parliament and the venal Labour Party is going to be 100% democratic and honest. If you are telling me that then you are either a fool or a “quisling”.

Time to grow up and hopefully before we are all dragged into the gutter with the trough swilling Labour Party and other servants of the corrupt Brit State or before we are all bled dry by the City of London’s something for nothing bonus culture and its dodgy accounting or its total lack of morality!

298

donald macdonald of macdonald,

27/05/2009 22:34:54
Darling, you are a wretch! My last three annual salary increases have been completely swallowed up by tax and national insurance 'adjustments' while that piece of chit rips the guts out of the expenses system with hardly a blush.

Never mind getting kicked out of office, he should be kicked into prison, along with the fifty other disgusting bloodsuckers that have the cheek to call each other honourable!
299

PointOf View,

Bonnie Scotland 27/05/2009 23:25:22
41 IndependentlyInclined
Spot on, i read that storey in the Independent today. It also mentioned that Cameron inherited his fortune of 30 million. His game plane will ensure the millionaires club will benefit from proposed tax brackets should he get in, financed by the poorer 94 % of the population. I’ think it mentioned approx 30 of his cabinet are millionaires, I’m not sure about the exact figure though. Once a Tory always a Tory.
300

Sgian Achlais,

27/05/2009 23:29:50
Iainbroch,

Great posts. They don't like talk about quislings. It seems to get a few of the British nationalists a little upset.

Seems the shoe fits very well and they do not like to wear it.
301

Iainbroch,

27/05/2009 23:42:55
re323

They just dont understand that some of us are not Nationalists or even SNP voters - we just want Scotland to be independent and making an effort to stand on its own two feet!
So what if we fall flat on our faces - we just get up and dust ourselves off and get on with things. It would be a damn site easier to get on with things without that parasitic organism in Lodon sucking us dry every second of every day!
302

snecked,

Argyll 28/05/2009 00:02:19
To insert a modicum of fact into this debate the last definitive poll on the independence question in Scotland (System Three, Sunday Herald last month ) had support for independence at 42% with opposition at 40%. There have been three opinion polls published in reputable newspapers on Scottish voting intentions over the last month.
System Three had SNP at 41% (Sunday Herald)
YouGov had SNP at 41% (Express)
Scottish Opinion has SNP at 43% (Mail on Sunday).
They all had Labour around 27%
LibDem and Tory ratings varied widely from a low of 9% (LibDem) to a high of over 20% (Tory).
Euro Election results will tell us a lot.
My suspicion is a very large percentage victory for SNP over Labour and Tory close together and a disastrous vote for the LibDems.
The SNP is swallowing the LibDem vote in many areas of Scotland and is in the process of replacing Labour in other parts.

The voting registers and ballot papers from Glenrothes would have filled a van. Anybody that innocently believes it is possible to "lose" that amount of paper needs seeing to.
303

Iainbroch,

28/05/2009 00:21:28
re325

There are no guarantees in life. I would take the chance because to continue on the course that the Unionists have brought us on is to doom this generation and thier children and thiers to more of the same waste of the last thirty years.
You could present financial plan after financial plan but what is the point if people are only going to crawl back under thier beds like scared children and keep taking the c!!p that London and its mouthpieces dish out daily.
The only thing that I can tell you about tomorrow is that if you dont control your own affairs then London will and they will screw you and everyone of us living in Scotland in every way they can. Is that the plan you prefer to stick with - I for one reject it.

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 

Featured Advertising



Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.