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EC urged to put brakes on M74 project

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Published Date: 28 January 2008
SCOTLAND'S biggest road-building project was thrown into confusion last night after the European Commission was asked to investigate claims ministers broke the rules over the contract.
The Scotsman has learned that a formal complaint was lodged with the EC over the Scottish Government's handling of the main contract for the controversial M74 extension in Glasgow.

The Greens claim ministers and the companies involved in the tende
r process broke two key European Union directives and are calling on the EC to intervene and halt the project.

The official complaint is the latest stage in what has been a protracted battle between the environmental lobby and the Scottish Government over the £500 million project.

While the complaint to the commission represents the last possible attempt to stop the M74 extension, it is also one of the most serious and potentially most important moves by the environmentalists so far.

If the EC does decide that ministers broke the rules, then, at the very least, it will put back the project by several years and could even signal the end for it altogether.

The extension is designed to link the M74 to the M8, west of the Kingston Bridge in Glasgow. The five miles of motorway are estimated to cost about £500 million.

The project has been backed by business groups, local authorities in the area and the current Scottish Government – it was previously supported by the Labour-led Scottish Executive.

Green campaigners have mounted a vociferous campaign against it, however, claiming the new road would cause serious damage to the environment.

The complaint, from an individual member of the Green Party but backed by the party's MSPs, alleges possible anti-competitive practices, cartel activity and unlawful state aid in connection with the M74 project.

The Greens are focusing on the decision by four potential bidders to combine as one consortium to tender for the work, and the decision by ministers to unify two contracts into one, moves that the environmentalists believe were anti-competitive and against EU rules.

Patrick Harvie, a Green MSP, said he hoped the European challenge would give ministers time to "look again at the whole process" of the M74 extension.

He said: "

Labour, Lib Dem and now SNP ministers must all take a share of responsibility for this failed process. Awarding a contract under these circumstances would be reckless in the extreme, especially given the power the commission has to cancel any contracts retrospectively if the process does break European law."

Mr Harvie, a Glasgow MSP, went on: "The Scottish Government must think very carefully about whether to proceed with this fundamentally ill-conceived project."

The Greens have acted now because a tough new directive from Europe was issued in the past few weeks, making it clear the EC would crack down hard on any anti-competitive practices in government procurement.

That directive makes it clear any contracts found to be anti-competitive would have to be ripped up and the process started again.

The environmentalists believe this latest directive gives them a good chance of halting the M74 contract, and delaying the project indefinitely.

There have also been unconfirmed reports that the Scottish Government is preparing to agree terms with the contractor in the next ten days, and the Greens want the commission to intervene before that happens.

The Greens claim ministers allowed four companies to join together into one consortium to bid for the work and, in doing so, failed to comply with article 81 of the treaty establishing the European Community.

They also allege that the companies that came together to form the consortium represented a "cartel", which prevented others from competing equally for the work.

A spokeswoman for the Scottish Government agency Transport Scotland said last night: "We are not aware of any complaint and would not comment further unless there was a formal case to answer.

"The M74 completion project has been properly audited and we believe the tendering process complies fully with procurement law. As with all major infrastructure projects, legal advice was sought at every step in the process."

Negotiations between Transport Scotland and Interlink M74, the consortium of Balfour Beatty, Morgan Est, Morrison Construction and Sir Robert McAlpine, should have finished last April.

A key concern has been to keep down the cost in the absence of competing bids. The final bid was not submitted until November, with Transport Scotland now having just ten days left to strike a deal by the end of the 90-day statutory period, on 7 February.

Completion of the project has been pushed back to 2011, and it now remains to be seen whether that will be delayed further.

A history full of controversy

THE M74 extension – one of Britain's biggest urban motorway projects – has been dogged with controversy since it was conceived as part of a Glasgow inner ring road more than 50 years ago.

While supporters argue it is the final piece of the city's motorway jigsaw, providing a short cut for through traffic, opponents believe it will just generate more traffic which will soon fill up the new road.

The other sides of the planned motorway "rectangle" around the city were completed with the M8 and M73 in the 1970s. But a five-mile gap to the Kingston bridge has remained since an initial extension of the M74 to Carmyle in the south-east was opened in 1994.

Plans to complete the scheme were lodged the following year despite campaign group Glasgow For People warning of "motorway madness" and Labour councillors being accused of ignoring the party's anti-motorway building policy.

The scheme received planning permission in 1995, but a funding dispute between councillors and ministers delayed it until the Scottish Executive agreed in 2001 to provide most of the £245 million cost, with the road to be completed by this year.

Two years later, nearly 400 objections were lodged and ministers admitted the scheme would cost £375-500 million – up to double previous sums.

They said this was partly because significantly more contamination than expected has been found on industrial land the road would cross.

The scheme became mired in the most significant controversy to date when ministers gave it the go-ahead in 2005 despite a public inquiry recommending it should be rejected.

Richard Hickman, the inquiry reporter, said the project was "very likely to have very serious undesirable results" and its congestion benefits would be "probably ephemeral".

Environmental groups launched a legal challenge to the decision the following year, but later abandoned it because of the likely cost of losing.

Transport Scotland said the case added £20 million to the cost, with completion now due in 2010.

However, the project was further delayed after it emerged that only one bid had been received for the building contract in October 2006.



The full article contains 1140 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 28 January 2008 8:55 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

,

28/01/2008 00:16:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

Sanny,

Glasgow 28/01/2008 00:31:30
I don't know if this will finish the M74 but it should certainly finish the Greens as a political force!
3

expat33,

le teich 28/01/2008 00:33:37
hey cpt, so what?

you've done your homework but what's your point?
4

Roger Irrelevant,

28/01/2008 00:43:28
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/uk.html

The "cut-and-paste" section of the see eye eh.
5

Carneades,

28/01/2008 00:49:09
As non-sequiturs go, post 4's response to post 2 comes close to taking the biscuit, eating and digesting it and plopping it down the pan.
6

,

28/01/2008 01:03:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
7

Mike Giggler,

28/01/2008 01:11:12
You really have to laugh, don'tcha?!
8

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 28/01/2008 01:12:08
I Know the M74 very, very, well! from..'pillar-to-post'

It has always been a,..'Doomed'..Road!

'Dual Carriageway'.. Call it a Motorway!

Upgrade to a Motorway!..etc!

No Surprises on this next fiasco!
9

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 28/01/2008 01:19:27
Come off the M6..'whiz..whiz'
M74..no-one realises its now..'Not a Motorway' and 3 Lanes..'olny 2 lanes now.!

But..Still.."Whiz..Whiz..Whiz.!

'Smash..Smash..Smash'..'Plenty Dead Now'.!
10

doublescotch,

U.S.A. 28/01/2008 01:21:48
#10 Hello Charles. (This has nothing to do with the article) I am going to be a grandma! Hope things are going well with you.
DOW:)
11

Richardinho,

28/01/2008 01:23:34
The greens are so 2/5/7. Sooner they go the same way as the tommy sheridan socialist sex workers party the better.
12

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 28/01/2008 01:32:47
The greens seem intent on comitting politcal suicide over this one.

Instead of trying to ensure the motorway has as minimal impact as possible they decide to try and block it all together.

Remind me please how many Motorways connect the rest of the UK with Scotland ?

Without adequate transport links the country can never thrive, this has been part of Scotlands problem for years.
13

,

28/01/2008 01:36:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
14

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA..captured from Mexico 1845 28/01/2008 02:00:22
EC urged to put brakes on M74 project
-------------------------------------

And what will or can Slick Salmond do about the tyrant EU.

NOTHING...yet this is the same guy who is kidding his supporters that he can get independence for the motherland Scotland.

A foolish clown he be, Slick Salmond

GC
15

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 28/01/2008 02:06:06
#12 doublescotch, How Beautiful for you and let
'Mummy-to-be' know, we wish her all the best on her impeding birth of her Baby!

#12 doublescotch, you are a God Blessed Person!
And Suzanne (DYW) and I, thankyou very much for all you kindness!
We wish you great happiness
IVF for us, is going through a testing time'
But if it happens, I know for sure, DYW will be a brilliant Mummy, as I will love our child to bits!
If it happens, this Baby will defiantly be a
'Love-Child'
We Wont be taking, her/him onto the M74 though! :-)
16

doublescotch,

U.S.A 28/01/2008 02:19:25
#17 Charles it will happen for you and DYW. It worked for my daughter. I know what you and Susanne are going through. I have being praying for you and Susanne and my daughter and son-in-law.
DOW
17

Navvy,

28/01/2008 02:20:24
The Bard wrote
I'm now arrived-thanks to the gods!-
Thro' pathways rough and muddy,
A certain sign that makin roads
Is no this people's study:
Altho' Im not wi' Scripture cram'd,
I'm sure the Bible says
That heedless sinners shall be damn'd,
Unless they mend their ways.

We must make the roads which are needed to keep the economy moving. We should also decide where we do not want vehicles. Vehicles in traffic jams are a much greater threat to the environment than a few miles of road through old steel works
18

doublescotch,

28/01/2008 02:23:14
#17 Charles forgive me I spelt DYW's name wrong. Tell Suzanne miracles happen everyday.
DOW
19

truthsleuth,

South of the Border 28/01/2008 02:32:56
Three no four cheers for the Greens
There is /was nothing wrong with the A74 that a little improvement here and there would not have solved particularly in the carlisle Area.
What was rong with it is that
1.the petrol heads found difficulty in reaching their top speeds without endangering their and eeveryone elses lives at the same time.
2. Your Monster lorries (40t plus more often than not overloaded)had to slow down occasionally becuase one or more of their similarly overloaded brethren was finding great difficulty in maintaing a reasonable speed on the slightest of gradients.

Both the petrol heads and the diesel outlaws should stop whingein and start paying their full costs.
20

truthsleuth,

South of the Border 28/01/2008 02:42:21
£500million plus for 5 miles of Motorway
Each cubic inch of roadway will be worth its weight in Gold.
By 2011 fuel costs (bio or not) will make the road unnecessary. I find it typical of the petrol heads and road fanatics that they complain about the cost of the Edinburgh tram but quickly avoid the costs of their beloved tarmac.
Note that almost all press releases on roads from Government agencies give passing mention, if they mention the cost at all.
21

W Smith,

Middle East 28/01/2008 03:07:25
Didn't Labour break rules over the contract for Scottish parliament building?

So what't new?
22

viking nz,

new zealand 28/01/2008 04:03:02
SCOTCH AND RYE . onwards and upwards , why oh why do the scots shoot themselves in the foot every time .they laugh at us over the border and can you blame them .
23

Julian.,

edinburgh 28/01/2008 04:05:00
#14 The figures are fudged

There is 1 motorway which connects England with Scotland, taking you to Glasgow and on up to Falkirk if you want. This has nothing to do with connecting England to Scotland so what's your point?
24

Julian.,

edinburgh 28/01/2008 04:06:02
AM2 # 7,

Where does it say he thought the Greens' complaint was justified?
25

williamx,

canada 28/01/2008 04:09:20
How about petrol at 20 pounds per gallon in 2012.
26

Julian.,

edinburgh 28/01/2008 04:10:12
Truthsleuth # 23,

Just what I was thinking.

£500m for 5 miles of motorway
£560m for 12 miles of tramlines + the trams.

Makes them look like a good deal in comparison.

Still think there'll be plenty of cars around in 2011 though.
27

Padraig,

28/01/2008 04:27:25
Is it because it is Sunday night but I can't remember seeing so much comment that is not only irrelevant but doesn't even bother to pay lip service to the issue reported.

Turning to the topic of the report - So much,then, for the Greens' "alliance" with the SNP. We all knew that Patrick Harvie is a loose cannon, likely to ricochet about. Glasgow needs this motorway extension which is long overdue - it will relieve pressure of traffic on the existing northern stretch of the M8 and shorten journeys, improving air quality, speeding up transport and supporting the economy. This is obviously not something that would concern a bigot, however. The trouble is that Harvie will see any further delay as a success instead of an act of vandalism.

That he is not alone in his idiocy is clear from posts already placed here.

Scotland can't afford to lose time in this kind of Luddism - we have too much catching up to do as it is.
28

Hmm ...,

28/01/2008 04:34:58
... "Green campaigners have mounted a vociferous campaign against it, however, claiming the new road would cause serious damage to the environment."

Just more of the "if they build more roads, people will just use them" twaddle.

I see too that "The complaint, from an individual member of the Green Party but (is) backed by the party's MSPs" - this makes it clear that Harvie and Harper think that Scotland's transport policy should be not to have any! And the SNP was misguided enough to let Harvie be chairman of the Scottish Parliament's Transport Committee - talk about the lunatics running the asylum!
29

David MacVicar,

web 28/01/2008 05:10:27
"...it was conceived as part of a Glasgow inner ring road more than 50 years ago."

Labours legacy of accomplishment...

I disagree with the Greens on this but at least most have courage of their convictions. There is no Green alliance with the SNP just confidence support. The Greens will lose out, it will probably be the right decision, at least they are fighting for something they believe.

This road was already needed over 50 years ago, its long, long overdue.
30

Dave B,

Edinburgh 28/01/2008 05:22:37
The Greens are losing a lot of credibility over this. Fair enough campaigning over scenic areas that deserve to be protected, but this road serves the industrial heartland of Scotland.. It is ridiculous that our biggest city does not have a ring road.
The holdup currently costs millions in extra transport expenses, huge M8 delays and added air pollution in the city centre.
In the long term, with electric or fuel cell vehicles on the way, many of the arguments against will be insignificant anyway.
The greens should save their energy for some worthwhile battles - the link is going to be completed at some point, and the sooner the better is actually the 'greenest' thing to do.
31

donald,

glasgow 28/01/2008 06:40:47
The ring that never grew,
The road that never flew
The bell that never rang
The burd that flew the coup.

Morris's furniture factory in Rutherglen was given £33m to move one of its buildings up the road for the Mway that never was. It is now paying off 60 odd workers, bringing in panels from China, opening up a factory in Birmingham and employing Polish agency workers.

Morris's sacked it Union after a strike and brought in scabs from Newcastle, some are now foremen.
32

An Beal Bacht,

28/01/2008 07:00:31
This is a great thread! Totally, totally random. Not what I'd expected. Thank you greens for some unexpected thread theatre. It is all drama after all.

I am inspired to complain to the UN that the Scottish Government ( or the "Executive" as Browne dismissively calls it ) is committing genocide on nuclear physicists and failing to spell shyte colorectally. The Avatar death squads are patrolling these threads and are threatening to bore me to death!

Charlie and doublescotch - congrats - and in the spirit - here's a wee song:

It suits today the meek and base
Whose minds are fixed on self and place
To cringe beneath daft Gordon's frown
And haul our sacred emblem down.
But we'll raise Scotland's standard high
Beneath its folds we'll live and die
Tho' cowards flinch and traitors sneer
We'll keep the Scots flag flying here

Slainte
33

Arthur X,

Edinburgh 28/01/2008 07:03:28
Anyone that thinks this road would do anything to solve congestion problems is living in la-la-land. The independent reporter said it would have a brief positive effect, which would soon be overwhelmed by the growth in traffic it would lead to.

It's a gargantuan Labour/Lib Dem vanity project, probably tendered illegally, and the SNP should use this opportunity to cancel it and reallocate the money to something useful.

It's like pass the parcel. Stewart Stevenson doesn't want to have to take off the last layer of Tavish's wrapping paper and find a court case, surely?
34

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta 28/01/2008 07:15:28
37
DaveSubsea,

Hey Dude If what U wrote is true .

Then Westminster must to tell the EU to get lost.

GC
35

TommyKaye,

UK 28/01/2008 07:17:20
AM2: Yes Alistair Campbell will be there and he said he would be happy to sign his book for you, he said come a little bit earlier if you can.
Rgds
36

fife runner,

28/01/2008 07:30:57
#18 just look at the M77 traffic increased 35% in first two years. Try driving along it at rush hour at times it is now a car park.

It is always known new roads generate more traffic. Tell me of one new road built in last twenty years in this country which is not now traffic jammed?
37

SeriouslyAmused,

Ayr 28/01/2008 07:31:13
The delays to this project have caused significant harm to the south side of Glasgow, in terms of snarling traffic on the roads and a lack of investment due to uncertainty. The Greens need a reality check on this. As someone who lived and worked on the South Side for many years I can assure them much more environmental damage is being caused by not having this completed
38

Agent 99,

Chief's office 28/01/2008 07:40:17
[35] Agreed. Still, there's nothing like a bit of distraction even if it is Charles.L waffling in his inimitable style. You wonder which school taught such constructs.

Anyway: to subject. I can see the merit in completing the original concept but the planners don't seem to have paid any attention to lessons learnt elsewhere.

What is going to happen to all the northbound traffic on the new bit of road as it hits the Kingston bridge? Just east of the bridge is already an 18-hour a day disaster and this will just make it worse. No one's proposing to widen the existing east-west bit of M8 to accommodate the additional traffic (and there will be some) so the result will be longer and more sustained gridlock.

Around London they're constantly widening the M25 which is up to 4 lanes in each direction on some stretches. Doesn't seem to effect any real improvement though.
39

BIG EYE,

Paisley 28/01/2008 07:41:45
This is a slight problem that can easily be solved.

What we need here is one of those letters from the last Lab/Lib government explaining there has been no "intentional wrongdoing".

That will be the end of it won't it?
40

conservative,

Fife 28/01/2008 07:51:25
These bloody greens!!
41

Webbie,

mullingar 28/01/2008 08:01:17
New roads DO generate more traffis.....before the road was built there were ZERO cars drove on that land after the road was built cars drove on it....thats an increase!!!!! Finishing the road will bring some movement elsewhere on our roads so lets finish it and if it closes Morris's(34) then Alex should look at increasing petrol tax to stop people driving to China for new furniture.
I PROMISE NOT TO BUY A NEW 4*4 JUST TO CLOG THE ROADS!!
42

Sprauncy,

Aberdeenshire - the place to be. 28/01/2008 08:09:27
No Wind Farms, No Nuclear Power, No M74, No Aberdeen By-Pass, No Donald Trump Golf, our planning process is like a rabbit caught in car headlights. Minorities are holding the country to ransom, costing millions defending against their attacks and billions in lost opportunities.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/TrumpSupport/
43

paulr,

edinburgh 28/01/2008 08:10:36
The greens need to learn the meaning of democratic government, they need to learn that it is government by the majority not the minority.
They are a minority , a selfish, self important bunch of morons.
44

Guga II,

Rockall 28/01/2008 08:13:30
#4 AM Squared. You just can't help yourself, can you? It would never occur to you that any of your precious unionist parties were to blame. Oh no, it must be the fault of the SNP. What's your problem? Is it because they are not building a new road in Northern Ireland for when you go home on holiday?

As for the Greens, if they had there way, we'd all be back in the Middle Ages, walking or driving our horses through mud, living in caves, and most of the population dead through starvation or hypothermia.

Regarding this garbage that the new road "will just generate more traffic which will soon fill up the new road", do these numpties think that cars will start breeding on any empty spaces? What planet are they living on?

At the next election, hopefully the Greens will garner the same sort of support as AM Squared's precious unionist parties, i.e. next to nothing.
45

Guga II,

Rockall 28/01/2008 08:14:25
Sorry, that should be "their way".
46

thomas ferguson,

28/01/2008 08:17:33
alex "smug" salmond will have a secret meeting and get it sorted,or maybe him and his party do not want the road built
47

Purlie Wilson,

Melbourne 28/01/2008 08:24:42
Aye indeed from afar an independent Scotland is a bit of a misnomer. If a country has to go cap in hand to get the loot to accomplish a project just where does dependency start and stop?
EU @ Ugh!
48

conservative,

Fife 28/01/2008 08:36:43
#49, Paulr.

Democracy is 3 wolves and a sheep voting on what to do for lunch.
49

David MacVicar,

web 28/01/2008 09:00:34
50 DaveSubsea,

I was thinking the same thing - seems a pointless exercise by the greens unless the EU want to prevent any further contract work going to the 'Cartel'.

57 DaveSubsea,
10 out of 10 for perseverance, but when other posters make such pathetic statements its doubtful that a handful of inconvienent facts will make much difference.

As has been the case in several projects the SNP has inherited a mess to deal with as best they can and in this case its too late to stop the project. The greens are only going to increase the costs by adding further delays.
50

David MacVicar,

web 28/01/2008 09:06:14
61 conservative

UK democracy applied to Scotland is

2 wolves and 3 sheep vote in Scotland on who sets the lunch menu. Sheep win 3 to 2.

UK Wolves in sheeps clothing overturn the decision in favour of the wolves.

It could be funny if it weren't true!
51

TommyKaye,

UK 28/01/2008 09:06:39
A-Levels To Go - McDonald's Offers Exams

This says everything you need to know about Labours time in Government.

A country that led the world is now to offer qualifications in fast food and it isn't even British!

fcuk the UK astonishing.

Perhaps they should change their name to Maclabour do you want lies with that yes I meant LIES
52

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 28/01/2008 09:12:46
Stupid interfering busibodies should mind their own business.
53

Buspass,

Edinburgh 28/01/2008 09:16:19
Sic Gloria Transit, Greens
54

GP,

28/01/2008 09:49:30
Most of the roads infrastructure in Scvotland is unfit for pupose. No question about it.
Roads given an M classification that are actually not motorways at all but dual carriageways. A - class roads that are dangerous in design with poor intersections and even to this day still have crossings. The remainder goes without say.
55

Upbeat,

28/01/2008 09:52:18
A wish list for a thriving nation would include good education, proper housing, adequate work and a good national transport infrastructure.

What part of this can the greens not understand ?

This last ditch attempt to stymie the plans for the completion of the through route around and past Glasgow is nothing more than a childish tantrum. The Greens should grow up and look around the world . They have no mandate to hold the future prosperity of Scotland to ransom.
It could be considered unfortunate for Glasgow's population that the city is located in between the west of Scotland and the rest of Europe. Itis certainly unfortunate for Scotland that some narrow minded single agenda luddites would deny the west of Scotland proper economic links to the markets on which the future prosperity of us all do depend.

56

MDK,

Govan 28/01/2008 10:01:55
The inital building of the M8 through Glasgow shattered the communities it past through, and destroyed great buildings close to the hearts of many. It has helped turn the city into a less caring, car centric place, where people talk and listen less to each other, while sitting in their lonely cars. The old friendly atmosphere is changing fast, and could disappear completely. The building of this extension may speed up traffic, but it will do nothing for the communities it will pass through. Glasgow should be about its people, not about motor vehicles!
57

GP,

28/01/2008 10:10:57
69# your arguement would be fair if Glasgow was paying for it, it isn't.
58

Miss H,

28/01/2008 10:14:35
I think the M74 extension is as big a white elephant as the Edinburgh trams. It will not reduce congestion. It's a waste of money.

59

Miss H,

28/01/2008 10:16:13
Incidentally for anyone who says how do I know that - well there was an eighteen month long public inquiry into it. Read the report.
60

tomislav,

home 28/01/2008 10:26:34
Get rid of this grubby, ridiculous devolution rubbish we have inadvertently let ourself be lumbered with, wave Bye bye to the honorary titled tacky jobs for the boys "Scottish Government" farce and lets have our real Government do what we need them to do.
61

Miss H,

28/01/2008 10:30:24
33 Hallo? It is indeed ridiculous that Glasgow does not have a ring road. The M74 extension is not a ring road - it goes right through the middle!
62

A Crofter,

Western Isles 28/01/2008 10:34:04
The public inquiry reporter rejected the plan, saying it would provide no more than a very temporary cure for traffic congestion locally and would probably create new bottlenecks elsewhere. That concept has been proved many times before.

It was the very green LibDems Nichol Stephen and Tavish Scott who took it upon themselves (with general Holyrood support) to overturn this decision.

Yet another example of Holyrood's refusal (as seen with recent calling-in of Trump's proposal) to abide by the proper democratic process and suck up to the business lobby (donations gratefully received) at the expense of the environment.

The Greens are right about this and should seriosly reconsider their support fot Ecky Trump's minority administration.

Over to the Tonker-driving stormtroopers .......
63

Paul R,

28/01/2008 10:42:06
All that the Green Party are doing is delaying the inevitable - and making the whoel scheme cost far more than it needs to. They are entitled to their opinion but I think they are digging their heels on this one.

Roads in the USA are built without any environmental backlash (and hence cost half as much) - why should we be any different?
64

ken 17,

north side 28/01/2008 10:58:12
aye, its out in the open now, no means to cross the river unless it can be blocked
erskine - easily closed
city centre easily closed
east end - easily closed
kingston bridge * easily closed [ if it doesn't collapse]
proposed M74 ext - stop at all costs.
welcome to the independent green republics of north and south glasgow and the new checkpoint Patrick, and you thought the berlin wall was physical and couldn't happen here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
65

Teamdroid,

28/01/2008 11:06:03
#77 - unfortunately AM2, this thread indeed shows you up as the fanatic. Firstly, your response (#4) to post #2, which had made no mention of the SNP or even the poster's own political sympathies! However, you sought to apportion fault to the SNP. As has already been mentioned, a ridiculous non-sequitor. Then latterly you tried your usual "Are you still a racist?" gambit. I'm surprised no-one runs a book each thread, betting on which number of post you resort to that one. Tiresome.
66

Morbo,

28/01/2008 11:21:51
What a boring thread! Why do people from around the world care or think their opinion on a Scottish road is worthy of consideration? Do you have NOTHING more interesting to do with your life?
67

william john,

ayr 28/01/2008 11:29:02
Build it. Roads in scotland are in the stagecoach era, compared to england, europe, and the rest of the world.
Friends of the earth dont believe in cutting flowers so where they and others like them would take us wouldnt be very far.
68

mr angry,

ayrshire 28/01/2008 11:54:10
#36 How can it possibly lead to growth in traffic, as stated before who is going to run out and buy a new car/truck because Glasgow has a bypass. It must be a benefit due to traffic not having to do a full circle of Glasgow to get round to the west or blocking smaller roads and causing even more damage. The greens should be voting for this as good for the environment. Its OK to have a position but to blindly go on as they are doing is bound to isolate them as nutters and lead to their demise.
We cannot get rid of cars and so should try to ensure the best possible enviromental outcome based on that not have idiots cutting of their noses to spite their faces.
69

Martin Kersland St,

Glasgow 28/01/2008 12:11:47
#83

Are these also lies......I'm confused!!! HELP
70

RCI,

Lanarkshire 28/01/2008 12:22:28
As one who has to travel the M8 in Glasgow each day, I welcome the M74 link. Due to the bodged planning of the motorway system in Glasgow in the 60's, we have inherited a system unfit for purpose. The Kingston Bridge, and the congestion caused by this bottleneck, created huge traffic queues each day.
It would seem to me to be common sense to complete this section of motorway, which is going to built on mostly brownfield sites and thus easing the pressure on a seriously overburdened bridge.
Road traffic, and the need for mass transit, will not go away. Unfortunately, in today's society, roads are a necessary evil which no-one has come up with a workable solution to.
Maybe the Green's should concentrate on campaigning to change the nature of the vehicles on the roads. The combustion engine is a major cause of pollution in the world. There are other alternatives available if the political will to change the face of transportation was there.
I feel the Green Party are far to idealistic and this campaign will see them further sidelined for mainstream political debate.

71

David Harrington,

Edinburgh 28/01/2008 12:25:56
#84 It has been shown time and time again that new roads often lead to an increase in traffic; the Scottish Executive ignored their own reporter's advice that this would be so for the M74 extension and decided to go ahead anyway despite all the evidence against. To say your attitude is that of a naive straw man.
72

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 28/01/2008 12:39:55
Miss H. Your point about trams may be understated as they will create congestion, not reduce it.
73

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 28/01/2008 12:40:34
#87 - By that logic we should shut existing roads because that should then lead to a reduction in traffic.

This road is 40 years overdue, just like the upgrade of the M8 to a proper motorway as opposed to a 2lane glorifed dual carriageway is overdue.
74

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 28/01/2008 12:43:07
AM2 has been posted as missing on Wendy Alexander scandal. Good to see still alive as above and posting on 'safer' ground for him.
75

 Ayrshire Scot™,

28/01/2008 12:55:12
- Conceived 50 years ago....
- But a five-mile gap to the Kingston bridge has remained since an initial extension of the M74 to Carmyle in the south-east was opened in 1994....
-The scheme received planning permission in 1995, but a funding dispute between councillors and ministers delayed it until the Scottish Executive agreed in 2001..

So it took Labour/ Lib Dems 8 years not to progress this at all? Similar to the new Forth crossing which the Labour/Lib Dem exec took 8 years not to progress at all.

And Labour (who presided over the spectacular farce of the Parliament building cost over-run) now keep complaining about the SNP investigating process issues in planning?

76

Miss H,

28/01/2008 12:55:22
88 Very likely. The key point as far as I am concerned is that they are both a waste of public money.
77

,

28/01/2008 12:56:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
78

Lock,

28/01/2008 12:58:13
I for one would be very disappointing if a new road didn't lead to any traffic on it. How much do you think these delays will cost us? It would be nice to know as then we could find out more details of how the elected people of this country are insistent on pouring our cash down the pan.
79

Doh,

28/01/2008 13:02:35
#76

"Ecky Trump"

That is the funniest thing I have read today.
Thanks - it is even better than "Dear Leader".
80

Neil,

Glasgow 28/01/2008 13:19:41
The Greens are inherently opposed to economic progress & in favour of ever more EU controls over everything we do so this shouls not come as a surprise. I wish the eco-fascists were forced to pay for even a significant fraction of the costs they load on us all.
81

Boggle fey the Bog,

28/01/2008 14:00:47
#2 Sanny 'I don't know if this will finish the M74 but it should certainly finish the Greens as a political force!'
above is Sanny's post at #2.

AMduhh #83.. please forgive me if I don't understand this post as English is not my 'native' language, and I only learned it from my Irish Pop , me mother, who wis fae Yocker and me Bankie faether, but my take on it is as follows...

Sanny doesn't know if it will halt the M74 extension, but it is his opine that it will end the Green Party as any sort of political force in Scotland.

Is this what Sanny is saying?

For you to suggest 'If the Greens' complaint has no foundation then his post #2 might make some sense. Otherwise, his "logic" defeats me. You're pulling at straws.'

Whether the 'Greens' complaint has any foundation or not is not the question here, if indeed there is a question here at all. It is simply a statement of Sanny's beliefs. Funnily enough with absolutely no reference whatsoever to the SNP, so this suggests to me that as per normal 'tis you who are 'pulling at straws' (by the by I thought the correct phraseology was 'Clutching at straws').

As for your continued reference to 'Racism' I again remind you and all your fellow travellers, that neither the Scots, English, Irish, Welsh, Somali's or Pakistanis are a 'Race' these titles are names given to the people of these countries i.e. Scotland, England, Ireland, both the six counties and The Republic, Wales, Somalia and Pakistan.

The races of most of the indigenous populations of these countries are as follows, Scotland, England, Ireland, Wales are Indo- European (In old terms classified as white Caucasians), Somalia are African (in old terms classified as Negroids) and Pakistan are also Indo-European ( in old terms classified as Coloured Caucasians).

I hope that this repeated information actually penetrates the glutinous mass that makes up your cerebral content, and you stop referring to 'anti-English' sentiment as being 'Racist' as al
82

Gribble,

Glasgow 28/01/2008 14:01:20
As someone who has known Newbury well for over 25 years, I can tell you that the bypass has been an unqualified success. Using the figures in this was makes me think that you clearly have no idea what the town was like before the bypass arrived. Looking at the figures, what they actually say is that, despite a consistent national growth in traffic levels, traffic on the previously most congested routes is hugely less than it was. It's a much better place to get around by car, foot or bicycle than it was 10 years ago.

The point about the M74 extension is that the existing roads are already gridlocked for large parts of the day, to everyone's detriment. The new road will relieve that, and that needs doing as a matter of urgency.
83

Boggle fey the Bog,

28/01/2008 14:02:41
AMduhh #83 cont:
I hope that this repeated information actually penetrates the glutinous mass that makes up your cerebral content, and you stop referring to 'anti-English' sentiment as being 'Racist' as although it may not be 'nice' it most certainly is not 'Racist'!!!

Might I also suggest that if you have no 'reasoned' argument, you should refrain from publishing inane comments about the SNP and fellow board users, on these boards, particularly when, your insipid and uninspired ramblings do not even address the issue in contention.

As far as the M74 saga is concerned, it was Nu Labour/Owld Torie that 'signed the contracts' and without putting any 'spin' on it, I fear the worst.
The people of Glasgow, and the West of Scotland have been waiting 50 years for the completion of this 'ring road' and the Westminster Government, who were in charge of the purse strings for most of that time were negligent in their duties.

It would seem that it was OK take 'our money' (after all the Road Fund Licence, is supposed to fund road building)but not deliver the goods!!!!

To my knowledge their has never been a SNP government in Westminster!!!

So please do not try to blame the present Scottish Government for Westminster and The English Political parties ignorance of Scotland in general and the M74 problems in particular.

So if you have any informed and pertinent comments to make, truly I do look forward to reading them, unfortunately however, history would suggest otherwise.
84

BMeister,

28/01/2008 14:15:50
#4 AM2
What on earth has sanny's post at #2 got to do with the SNP?

As has been said, #4 is a non sequitur.

Bizarre.
85

,

28/01/2008 14:24:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
86

Miss H,

28/01/2008 14:51:28
100 I think you would find unanimous support in the south side of Glasgow for a by-pass. By-passes by pass places, you see. On the other hand the M74 extension involves building a massive flyover slicing through the south side of Glasgow. Through as opposed to by-passing it.

AM2 as the resident stats guy can maybe give us some figures about how many people travel from the south side of Glasgow to the city centre every day. See, the Greens are not that daft. This construction is going to cause massive disruption to everybody who lives on the south side of Glasgow and it will all be coming to a head before the next council elections....
87

Katty,

Bannockburn 28/01/2008 15:16:28

Give them until the end of the week. The Greens will be joined by Labour and Lib,Dems.
I see am2 is already a jump in front of these numpties
88

Katty,

Bannockburn 28/01/2008 15:32:03
#74 AM 2 "I moved to Glasgow little more than a child"

So it is official. You are a white settler!!!! knew it!!

89

moiaussi,

28/01/2008 16:15:48
"Tell me of one new road built in last twenty years in this country which is not now traffic jammed?"

A1 in East Lothian.
90

Sgurr,

28/01/2008 16:28:42
I will almost be disappointed when they complete the road to nowhere, as it stands as a monument to Labour Party incompetence.
91

Shamus,

Glasgow 28/01/2008 16:38:53
We pay Councillors, MPs and MSPs to govern our country. Then the EC are allegedly getting involved in our business. A simple matter of a road. Maybe we should cut our losses and let the EC run the country.
92

Publius,

London 28/01/2008 16:47:09
I deplore the twisted logic of the greens and their friends. (1) They are trying to stop the road on a procedural point about contracting. They should be billed for all the costs that arise from this action.
(2) To object to new roads because they cause more traffic is absurd. Ancient Romans also objected to new roads because more people travelled to Rome: but Rome grew prosperous because roads brought people and trade. In any case it is not traffic that causes massive pollution. It is congestion. A glance at any map will tell you that the M8 into Glasgow from the west carries all the traffic from the west (Edinburgh), the north (Stirling, Perth, Dundee, Aberdeen, Inverness)and the south (upper Clyde Valley, England). The M74 extension will relieve congestion on the M8. Hence even if total traffic rises pollution from traffic will fall.
(3) Won't the extension actually be the north end of the M6? The A74(M) is supposed to become the M6 when the missing link around Carlisle is completed.
93

Publius,

London 28/01/2008 16:53:39
P.S. In 112 for west read east!!!! Driving into Glasgow on the M74, M73, M8 has that effect on you!!!
94

George Mackay,

Dundee 28/01/2008 16:58:59
#TommyKaye

My cousin Shona, the arty one of the family, whose one woman show flopped at the 2006 Edinburgh fringe, is now working at McDonald's as a trainee assistant manager. She is hoping to get at least an MA for this, but her supervisor says that the new qualification won't be valid in Scotland. Can you confirm this Tommy before Shona writes to the Scottish Government to complain?
95

Upbeat,

28/01/2008 17:19:06
I have said this previously with regard to the M74 extension but it needs saying again.

Approach the west highlands from Gretna/ Carlisle you will travel north on the M74. Get near Glasgow headed for Dunbarton/Crianlarich or Inverary and where do you turn off ? Head south of the city from Bothwell, round the southern " ring road " and roughly one hour after leaving the M74 you may , if you are very lucky, be roughly 20 miles away , just crossing the Erskine bridge.

Choose instead to proceed on north and exit at the the M8 interchange, you may ...if you are very lucky one hour later ...be 16 miles away just passing the slip road off the Erskine bridge.

Go on north to take the A 84 turning wset of Stirling and you may one hour after passing the southern ring road at Bothwell, be just approaching Callander. ( Hopeless for Kintyre etc .)

Anyone who seriously considers that Glasgow is well served by having West Highland traffic passing down Great Western road at walking pace needs to think again.

If Glasgow really wants to advance, through-traffic has to be catered for. I am sure that the people who inhabit the southern ring road route between Blantyre, East Kilbride, and Paisley , and all communities in between, will welcome a reduction in through traffic in their communities once the M74 is complete. .
96

Upbeat,

28/01/2008 18:01:16
Regarding Newbury.

Surely it is important to recognise the way that through traffic flows around England has altered totally as a result of improvng the linkbetween the midlands and the south coast and Southampton port, which the Newbury by pass has provided. Gone are the days when heavy traffic to and from Birmingham would have been quicker travelling via the London area and the M3 to get to the container terminals of Southampton port.

This type of benefit will happen to Glasgow too once the M74 is complete. Traffic flows around and through the city will be radically affected. Reardless what any " transport expert" attempts to predict it will always be impossible to state with any certainty that overall traffic volumes passing across Glasgow have increased or reduced. One thing that will be certain is that the emissions from traffic moving steadily and at speed on this new "artery" will reduce pollution , noise and smell in the city centre, once heavy traffic has a proper alternative to using shopping streets as main routes.
97

Euan,

Edinburgh 28/01/2008 18:05:31
The Greens may be trying to stop this much-needed project but in doing so all they are doing is putting the final cost up!

The sooner this road is built, the better.

98

Publius,

London 28/01/2008 18:19:07
#118 Joe. You're nae wrang about the A1. But how do we persuade the English to dual the road on their side of the border. The trip from Berwick to Newcastle is a nightmare. And it doesn't get much better south of Newcastle. The A1M)from Newcsastle to Darlington is a joke of a motorway.
#119 Upbeat. Right on. And we have seen a few improvements in Scotland too in the last few years: the M77 extension; the A1 across East Lothian; the A92 from Dundee to Arbroath. But we need more new roads and quickly too. The whole of Europe seems to be building lots of good roads except the UK.
99

Sprauncy,

Aberdeenshire - the place to be. 28/01/2008 19:25:20
Negativity is the ace card of Politicians - to hell with what the voters want, point scoring and spoiling is the name of the game. Hours are spent on trivial matters, that should be left to the appointed bodies to investigate.

One half of the media and Politicians spend there time digging into items that are not worthy of mention, other than a foot note. The other half spend their time trying to defend the subject.

Hours of parliamentary time, and yards of news print are taken up with tribal warfare - costing the UK dearly in opportunities lost.

The planning process seems to garner all sorts of fringe groups who are able hijack the processes and cost the country £Billions in lost jobs and infer structure projects. Nuclear Power, Wind Turbines, M74, Aberdeen By-Pass, Peterhead Power Station, etc.

It's time for the people to hold these time wasters to account.
100

scotinbc,

BCCANADA 28/01/2008 20:13:37
I too think that the Green Party members are truly a bunch of self righteous numpties. One thing that bedazzles me is. How would they find enough other numpties out there to vote them in? They are not only anti progress. They are anti common sense.
101

,

28/01/2008 20:36:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
102

Miss H,

28/01/2008 21:17:51
115 Why can't we build it through Blantyre, East Kilbride, and Paisley rather than through the middle of Glasgow? Fewer people live there.

You know, people keep saying 'we have had to wait 40 years for this road to be complete'. Well things change in 40 years.

Can you name me a single other modern day European city that would contemplate building a stretch of motorway through it?

People also keep talking about ring roads.

Ring roads ring cities - the clue is in the name, just as the meaning of by pass is to pass by not go through....

103

Friar Tuck,

28/01/2008 21:55:59
Based on the theory that "If you build more roads, the traffic will increase", then, conversely, if you reduce the number of roads, the traffic will decrease. So, Here's what we'll do - we will just get rid of all the roads (make them all pedestrians only) and all the traffic will disappear! Enjoy your walk to the railway station because there will be no buses or trams!
104

Miss H,

28/01/2008 21:56:02
128 Of course it will generate and increase traffic. That is why they are building it - there wouldn't be any point otherwise. It is acknowledged that they expect to see a 25% increase in traffic as a consequence.

105

Miss H,

28/01/2008 22:08:35
129 I think you will find many people living in Glasgow who have a lot of sympathy for that point of view. Here's why.

Space.

You no doubt live in a small town, village or suburb in a house, possibly with a garage or at least space to park your car out in front in the street. Well that is a luxury these days in Glasgow. There are simply more cars than there is space for then. Take me for example - I live in a tenement flat, 8 households, space outside in the street for 2 cars to park. Ergo everybody cannot have a car. Yet six out of eight households do, so they spend twenty minutes each day trying to find somewhere to park, usually about half a mile away. When the council tentatively starts to look at parking permits all hell breaks loose. This is the situation all over Glasgow. It is predominantly a flat-dwelling city - space again. That is why they build up the way.

So let's make a deal - you want to live outside the city in a house, drive your car to work each day on a nice new motorway - fine and dandy. You want to go from A to B and Glasgow is in the middle? Fine. Build a ring road that actually goes around the city. But do not build another stretch of motorway through it and recognise that in the big cities - and between the big cities - the investment must be in public transport than can carry large numbers of people in a cost effective and envrionmentally sustainable way, not more roads.
106

Upbeat,

28/01/2008 22:28:54
127 Miss H you asked : "Can you name me a single other modern day European city that would contemplate building a stretch of motorway through it?"

A rather naive question , for most European cities finished building their inner city motorways many years ago. Meanwhile Britain got half way and then lost heart.

Take a look at Paris, Amsterdam, Berlin, Geneva, Zurich , Frankfurt, Strasbourg ,Antwerp, etc etc.

All of these cities have inner city motorways, many built in the 1970's and 1980's. The motorway ring around Zurich is only just completed, but the orignial motorway went straight through the middle. This evolution is typical of most European cities. The motorway goes through tunnels under Geneva, other tunnels go under Neuchatel, St Gallen, Luik, and Brussels.

What none of them have done is failed to address the problems that modern traffic will create. None of them have failed to build for the car, or assumed that letting traffic find its own way acros the city on inadequate streets and via " rat runs" is a preferable option.

Just because you live in the inner city it does not give you the vision to see the greater needs of Scotland. Never forget too many people in the west of Scotland wish that Glasgow would sort this out. They do not wish to drive through Glasgow, or even stop there , they just want to get past it.
107

HEN BROON 5,

28/01/2008 23:45:39
74 AM2,Glasgow,UK 28/01/2008 10:29:53
#51 Guga II


"Know this: I moved to Scotland as barely more than a child and consider Glasgow to be my home. I don’t “go home” to Ireland. This is my home. Would you speak to a Pakistani or Somali in this manner?"

KNOW THIS...You are a guest in our nation, please do not forget that. You would do well to contemplate that before you post any more of your vile lists and Brit Nat propaganda. You are a fanatic and an aparatchick who is so obsessed with this madness that you live on these forums.
If you pitched up in Pakistan or Somalia and spoke to there people in the arrogant condescending manner you have been using to Scottish Nationalists on these forums, your head would be separated from your body with a blunt sword, taking six or seven swipes to separate it. Leaving you with that thought I now retire..... oh the joy and the pure ecstasy :o)
ALBA GU BRATH.

108

Purlie Wilson,

Melbourne 29/01/2008 03:53:01
#58
Indeed for all intent and purpose any final ties to the UK are extremely tenuous. Your cataloging of events is spot on. Alas if one thinks back though, the initial move to cut the ties emanated from within Whitehall when OZ became a nonentity against the EU. Every time I visit the country of my birth the only produce from Oz readily available is wine.
As opposed to handouts as I understand it from the EU at least Oz borrows funds but pay their debt in timely manner. Good for the soul?

#59
Oh dear now the sparks will fly!!
That lovely wee country Auld Scotia has become barren of natural resources [whisky apart] and industry is hard to find. Oil yes for a wee while longer but like it or not Scotland would never ever get the lions share of the wealth. The odds are stacked heavily against despite all the ranting and raving about "Our Oil".
I hear the cry TOURISM hohoho..all too many alas leave with less than favorable opinion due to fifth rate accommodations and greed ripping people off.
The country of my birth is dear to my heart for its beauty and in the majority, the warmth of it people. If Auld Scotia can stand alone without being drip fed from other sources I hope and pray that it should come to pass because if it cannot it will never be independent.


109

Drum Major,

Keperra 29/01/2008 06:16:27
If I put my Canon Pixma ip3000 printer in the middle of this road will it work better than it has for the past 2 weeks. Thats how long I have been trying to get onto technical support from Canon Australia. Guess whose printers I won't be buying next time.
110

Proud2Be,

Scotland 29/01/2008 10:30:04
a blatant misuse of the appeals process to further the agenda of a bunch of tree hugging hippies!!

I have taken to attending Green Party meetings as the nonsense that spews forth from their mouths makes an excellent fertilizer for the garden!!

I hold strong views on the preservation of our environment however I cannot condone a party appropriating the appeals process to use a stimulus for their dead campaigns!!

I hope they are footing the bill for it!!
111

Billy Boy,

La La Land LA 30/01/2008 04:37:04
No 36, I take no offence at your remark even though I live in La La land. We, the residents of Los angeles have absolutely no complaints with our road system, We have recently completed a "State of the art" addition. A train service! well' it's not really a train, it looks like one but in fact it is a bus, It has its own rail right of way -except they pulled up the rails- it has an added advantage of providing quality relax time for those pesky drivers, at least 30 stop signs and red lights, allowing me to do my Yoga on the video. It crosses at least 20 Major streets, has no safety barriers. best of all there atre always plenty of sweats!! arent you jelouas

 

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