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Dresden victims 'farfewer than believed'

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Published Date: 02 October 2008
A NEW study claims no more than 25,000 people were killed in the massive Allied bombing of Dresden in the Second World War – far fewer than many scholars have believed.
Four years of research being carried out by a team of historians and academics has cast doubt on previous claims that up to 135,000 may have lost their lives in the eastern German city over two days in 1945.

The bombing of Dresden became arugably
the most controversial operation carried out by British and US forces during the Second World War as it involved creating firestorms by dropping incendiary bombs.

Controversy has raged for decades over how many people died in the waves of attacks by the Allied bombers.

A recent book by British historian Frederick Taylor, published in 2005, claimed as many as 40,000 lost their lives. But the new commission – which involves dozens of university professors, archivists and military historians – has managed to confirm there were just 18,000 deaths. They have also discovered that police and city officials at the time believed that there were only 25,000 victims.

The medieval city of Dresden, was 85 per cent destroyed by two waves of British bombers on 13 February 1945. US planes blasted the city the next day.

The official death toll has most recently been put at about 35,000, but many scholars believe the actual number was higher as bodies – civilians mostly, fleeing the advancing Red Army in the east – were reduced to ashes in the firestorm.

The Allies hoped the bombing would hurt the Nazis where they would feel it most, and help force their capitulation.

Recently, neo-Nazis in Germany have talked of between 500,000 and a million victims of Dresden, calling the raid a "bombing Holocaust" and comparing it to Hitler's murder of six million Jews.

However, a statement issued by the research team yesterday said: "The commission, in this preliminary report, believes there were a maximum of 25,000 people who died during the February aerial attack."

The team of experts has pored through file stretching for more than 2,600ft in the Dresden state archives and interviewed dozens of witnesses. The commission has also studied aerial attacks, rescue operations, firefighting, and archaeological evidence.

Despite the chaos during the devastation of the bombing, they said they found records of recovery and burial of the dead to be "remarkably orderly".

Dresden's mayor Helma Orosz said: "Through this work of the commission the victims get a face and a name. Behind every single victim is suffering and we should remember this."







The full article contains 436 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 02 October 2008 12:48 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: World War II
 
1

Scullion,

Canada 02/10/2008 01:14:59
There's something chilling about death being spoken in such accounting terms. Men like the late great Kurt Vonnegut railed against the Dresden bombings but when men's hearts are filled with bloodlust, as they must be in a fight to the death, to talk of right or wrong or mercy or compassion is futile.
2

2dogs in D.C.,

02/10/2008 01:19:11
Damn, Scullion.I was gonna say "ask Kurt". You're far to quick for me,Bless ya.
3

Guga II,

Rockall 02/10/2008 02:18:15
Considering the actions of the Germans in the bombing of London during the Great War, their bombing of Guernica during the Spanish Civil War, their bombing of Warsaw, Rotterdam, London, Coventry and Clydebank during the Second World War, actions which were aimed at killing civilians, I fail to see how anyone, especially the Germans, can complain at being bombed in return.
4

,

02/10/2008 03:36:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
5

Randomly Blocked Poster, ,

02/10/2008 07:30:47
Will these experts now be arrested for denying the holocaust?

Having banned Slaughterhouse 5 in case the American public found out about Dresden and that beinb historically a waste of time they are now revising history instead.

Wouldn't want to trouble the colletive psyche and have a blot on the West's perfect record of bringing freedom and democracy to the Worlds opressed people.
6

Boy Wonder,

02/10/2008 08:48:07
People will die in wars ... through the war-crimes of the planners.

The numbers don't matter (as numbers) because war is wrong!
7

yockel,

02/10/2008 12:06:53
Did I just nod in agreement with Boy Wonder? Jings!
8

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 02/10/2008 12:26:44
Boy Wonder

Try convincing that war-monger George W. Bush of that truism.

Watch the movie "Dresden" and you will view a truly harrowing depiction of that despicable act against humanity.

"Slaughterhouse Five" is one of my favourie movies and a pretty truthful adaptation of Vonnegut's novel.

It is one of the most incisive anti-war movies made ranking up there with "Full Metal Jacket" and "Dr. Strangelove" and Canada's recent epic "Passchaendaele" by director and star Paul Gross of television Mountie fame.
9

Scotfree,

Erskine 02/10/2008 12:31:55
The English and Americans have been masters at rewriting history for their own benefit for centuries. It is now almost 20 years since the end of the so-called cold war and the Russians occupation forces left East Germany. Yet the English and American occupation forces still remain. For what reason precisely? The Anglo-American genocide in Dresden, where the bombing patterns were deliberately designed to cause a Hiroshima type chain reaction fireball in the city, has parallels to this day in Iraq and other conflicts. No amount of historic rewrites will erase this crime from the English or America copybook.
10

mike - across the pond,

guga.... 02/10/2008 13:40:58
see what you find yourself in bed with.... appeasers... deniers....

those who find the nazi's "not so bad"...

dresden happened... hiroshima happened... nagasaki happened...

neither the US nor the UK ASKED for WW2...

however when push comes to shove comes to right-cross... we did what needed to be done to finish it...
11

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 02/10/2008 14:20:33
"Dresden victims 'farfewer than believed'"

Careful, an Australian holocaust denier has just been arrested in London.

Oh but it's ok to dramatically reduce the number of Germans (Nazis) killed.
12

mike - across the pond,

scotfree... 02/10/2008 14:36:28
why are we still in germany?

because we are paying rent on the airfields and army bases...

because the german government understands the need for the bases... and the advantages of having us there...
13

,

02/10/2008 14:55:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
14

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 02/10/2008 15:58:37
Guga,

I doubt whether much bombing activity happened during the Great War... at least not compared to World War II.

;-)
15

Mcsnagpile,

02/10/2008 16:29:43
There is no financial crisis only misguided people. If everybody refused to accept it, it would die like the mythical beast it is. And so all other belief systems. I do not want my son to die or kill somebody elses son because of evil old men. If we had only learned this, then the souls of Dresden would be satisfied.
16

Bemused and above it all,

02/10/2008 17:01:09
Guga

I suppose you feel the dropping of the second attomic bomb on Nagasaki was justified?
Nothing to do with seeing what would happen if they hit a civilian population centre?
Dresden was a non-nuclear equivalent, it was to destroy the treasures & assessts in the florence of the north, nothing to do with the war but a preparation for the war against the soviets which we now call the cold war period.
T!T
17

Bemused and above it all,

02/10/2008 17:03:33
#10 no but then we couldve told france to get out of the ruhr valley as they sowed the seeds of the second world war in the 1920's
18

indune1,

Canada 02/10/2008 19:11:27
Mike across the pond - Great postings.
19

indune1,

Canada 02/10/2008 19:36:31
17 - Bemused and know-it-all: Please tell me that your living is not made by being in a position of responsibility.

Your deluded revisionism is very frightening and pathetic.
20

Guga II,

Rockall 02/10/2008 20:20:10
#16.

No, it should have been dropped on Tokyo.

You, and all the other wets, should remember that old adage about as ye sow, so shall ye reap.

21

indune1,

Canada 02/10/2008 20:50:46

There is no doubt that the A-bombs saved thousands of more lives - Japanese and Aliied - than those lost at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Callous? Perhaps, but nithing in war is gracious.
22

James Donald,

Newbridge 02/10/2008 22:20:24
Apparently the research of this commission of so-called "experts" is due to continue into 2009 after which time they will hopefully publish their findings. We should be able to gauge then how credible their claims are then but I fail to see the point of their research as a death toll of 25,000 instead of 40,000 does not make it any less of an atrocity.
I had the opportunity to talk to a Scottish witness of the aftermath of the Dresden bombing as few years ago, the neighbour of a friend who as a POW was sent into Dresden to help with the clearance and rescue work. He and his comrades spent several days pulling bodies out of the cellars and air raid shelters which had filled with water and drowned the occupants. The scenes of chaos in the city he described make me very sceptical of the claim that the "recovery and burial of the dead to be "remarkably orderly"". Similarly I am sceptical as to the motivation of these "experts" involved in the research.
23

indune1,

Canada 02/10/2008 23:05:18
22 - James - What exactly is your point? Did you speak to those who pulled the bodies out of Coventry, London, Birmingham, Portsmouth or Liverpool.

War, as Sherman said, is hell. To make revisionist distinctions is to ignore the obvious. With regard to Nazism, the military means absolutely justified the end.
24

James Donald,

Newbridge 03/10/2008 07:03:24
#23 indune1,Canada - "Did you speak to those who pulled the bodies out of Coventry, London, Birmingham, Portsmouth or Liverpool" - The article was about the bombing of Dresden (I'm sure you would have noticed that) but I do not think that the bombing of civilians is an acceptable form of warfare whether it is at Guernica, Coventry, London, Hamburg or Dresden. Certainly the killing of upward of 25,000 people (almost all civilians) in a short period and so near the end of the war is not a "means" that "absolutely justified the end", since the "end" was no longer in doubt. No "revisionist" distinctions from me and similarly no attempt to justify one atrocity by pointing to previous atrocities.
My point is that whether the number of killed was 25,000 rather than 50,000 it does not lessen the magnitude of the crime any more than claiming that the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust was 5 million rather than 6 million (although the latter statement is illegal in Germany). Thus as question the motivation for the research over 60 years after the event and suspect that their "findings" may have more to do with German politics than the truth.
25

Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 03/10/2008 07:55:04
#20 Giga "No, it should have been dropped on Tokyo."

Why? Tokyo had already been subject months earlier to the biggest one-day bombing death toll anywhere, bigger than either the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings.

Quote from Robert McNamara "In that single night, we burned to death one hundred thousand Japanese civilians in Tokyo. Men, women and children. "
26

kallaskander,

08/11/2008 10:37:35
Interesting that anglo-american historiens try to reduce of Dresden bonging victims as low as possible.

It is true that the German Nazi Regime started bombing Guernica in Spain and after the attack of 1st September 1939 cities in Poland. And Coventry can not be deneid. I have friends there.

If you see aerial pictures of Germany and her cities from 1940 onward you see what you saw in Coventry after the attack. In the whole of Germany.

That is because of an attack scheme the Allies have invented, the firestorm. Scientific research by allied scientists found a combination af usual bombs and phosphor loaded bombs most effectiv in burnign whole cities down especially in windy nights.

This tactic was chosen deliberately to break the will and the backbone of the Germans in order to make them give up or to get ridd of the Nazis. That tactic went far astray.
In 1945 there were no more major German cities to bomb in this way so bomber command started smaller cities and cities that had no military connection whatsoever. It was the sole aim to destroy the living and housing of workers to break the German war industry.
Churchill had his doubts very early but he dared not stopping these attacks.

In 1945 it could have been totally clear that the bombings were not achieving what they were supposed to. And it was clear that towns in the east of Germany were full of refugees fleein from the Red Army.

With the attack of Dresden the Allied Forces lost what they had over Germany from the first shot in this despicible war. Moral superiority.

That is why it is important how many lost their lives in Dresden. But it is not the count that counts.

 

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