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City U-turn over double glazing ban in the frame

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Published Date: 03 September 2008
RISING fuel costs and environmental concerns have forced councillors to consider lifting a ban on double glazed windows in Edinburgh's most historic buildings.
Hundreds of residents in and around the New Town are currently prevented from replacing their draughty old windows, because of fears that double glazing would change the appearance of their properties.

But officials have now admitted their stance
on category A and B-listed buildings "seems to conflict" with the push to reduce carbon dioxide emissions and cut household energy bills.

The council is set to trial different examples of double glazing, with the results used to determine its future planning rules.

A recent study of nine B-listed Georgian tenement flats in the city found that other non-invasive energy saving measures – such as draught proofing – can reduce annual energy costs by up to £400.

The double glazing trial is likely to be carried out in these same buildings on Lauriston Place.

Alistair Cant, director of the Lister Housing Co-operative which owns the properties, said: "These are fantastic buildings, but they are not so good in terms of energy efficiency. They have high ceilings along with single glazed timber sash windows, which are very draughty.

"Draughtproofing can help a lot, but double glazing improves the temperature surface of the glass, and if the ban is reviewed it could help people have a better choice of options."

When planning applications are submitted to the council, thermal insulation is often included as the main reason why property owners want to alter or replace traditional sash and case windows.

The council's director of city development, Dave Anderson, admitted the authority's restrictions are a "particular issue" in Edinburgh, where 75 per cent of buildings in the World Heritage Site are listed.

"Technology is changing and new materials in certain circumstances can work well in older buildings," he said.

"In order to fully consider the implications of the use of double glazing in category A and B-listed buildings, it is recommended that a trial is arranged using a range of types of sealed-unit double glazing, and other thermal efficiency measures, to allow for discussion of their potential use with Historic Scotland."

But a spokeswoman for Historic Scotland was less positive about the proposed trial.

She said: "Though often perceived as the solution to heat loss, double glazing is not the only way to mitigate heat loss, and more economic non-invasive steps can have a good impact, without altering the original fabric of the building."

She added: "As with any work to a listed building, we would consider applications for the replacement of windows on their individual merits.

"Since traditional buildings, both listed and unlisted often vary little, it may be preferable to undertake the trial in an unlisted building, or utilise examples where such units have already been installed."





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 03 September 2008 10:37 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

carrottop,

Dumfries 03/09/2008 12:17:21
The regulations on a listed building are just an easy way for suppliers/tradesmen to rake in the cash by charging exorbitant prices on something they have you over a barrel for.
Think of the new regulations on electrics, your MOT, planning where you Must have detailed drawings from an expensive architect, change of use of a property where they want a detailed floor plan etc. Just an excuse for the old boys to rip you off.
I do think old buildings should be protected but anything that is done on them should be OK if it looks ok, not sash must replace sash, wood - wood, lead - lead etc. Suggest historic scotland and local authorities use common sense or if not then compensate the owners for all the extra costs involved, after all they (we) own these properties and did not ask for them to be listed.
2

Buttress,

03/09/2008 12:23:57
So why are they draughty? Get them properly draughtproofed. Plenty of DIY kits available, or people like Ventrolla can do it.

Secondary glazing can help if noise is a problem. Shutters, heavy curtains... all help.

The amount saved in claimed energy costs has to be offset against the price paid for the DG units, the fact the timber they are set in is nowhere near as good in the main as the original, probably won't last as long, and DG isn't long lasting - it fails eventually and has to be replaced. Then of course there is the cost of transport and disposal of the originals (landfill?) and manufacture of new, and factories, and more transport - look at the wider environmental costs (including timber growing) and it's not such a saving. What price sustainability? Repair and re-use?

Also the glass in many historic buildings is 'wobbly' and precious antique cylinder glass, (it can be bought new still - at a price) or the even more rare crown glass, that gives reflections which add so much life and interest to a building, which the flat modern stuff doesn't, and frankly,to get rid of all this historic glass and joinery would be like taking an electric sander to an antique table and giving the top a coat of modern varnish - vandalism.

3

Miss Pixie,

formerly of Dinleyhaughfoot Cottage, Roxburghshire 03/09/2008 12:25:14
I will never understand WHY double-glazed windows don't come in styles that replicate the look of the old sashes!
4

SpellingWizard,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 12:47:12
#3- but they do, or at least double glazed two pane sash and case windows do exist, and look identical.

In my former flat, we were allowed to install nice looking timber sash and case double glazed windows. Expensive but worth it in terms of noise reduction and heating costs. The difference was amazing. And they looked really good.

Now I live 100 metres along the road in a listed building. Can't put the same type of new windows in because double glazing is not allowed. If I replaced, I'd have to replace with single glazing, which would look effectively the same at a similar price but be less effective. Provided the aesthetics work out, I reckon double glazing should be allowed.
5

Buttress,

03/09/2008 13:00:37
DG isn't actually the most effective way to reduce noise - secondary is.

And draughtproofing can make a huge difference.
6

Howard Moon,

03/09/2008 13:07:47
Who cares? If people want to put in double glazing into the buildings they own, why shouldn't they be allowed to? Edinburgh (even the precious WHS) is a modern working city - not a museum.
7

Diana,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 13:12:10
I fail to see how allowing double-glazing would change the "look" of a listed building. Surely new windows could only improve the look - as if that's all that's important here! Most of these buildings have ratty looking old windows that should have been replaced many many years ago.

We used to live in a flat with sash windows, and they were completely useless in keeping us warm.
8

tomias,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 13:22:08
Double glazed in situ sash windows are available; you cannot tell the difference.
How do I know?
Replaced two windows earlier this year.
A place down at Holyrood makes them.
9

Buttress,

03/09/2008 13:45:42
Yes, they do. But in order to get the DG units in to thin glazing bars, you have to site them near the surface. They then fail, as they degrade. DG is supposed to be embedded into the wood and that makes clunky ugly glazing.

In the long term, you aren't saving much. And you've probably got rid of windows which have been there for decades without falling apart, and added to the environmental problems in a much wider sense than simply a small claimed amount of heating savings.

Anyhow, I think Mr Roden has jumped the gun on this one possibly, and I'd consider the reality is the council isn't about to do a U turn. But he has to fill these pages with something.

As I understand it, there's to be some further testing with the Energy Heritage Project (see Edinburgh World Heritage Truste site for all the details).

10

Buttress,

03/09/2008 13:52:24
"A ground breaking new study, funded by Edinburgh World Heritage, has demonstrated how simple energy saving measures can have a dramatic effect in making historic homes more energy efficient.

The issue is of real importance in Edinburgh where around 75% of the buildings within the World Heritage Site are listed, but there is also a need to reduce household energy bills and alleviate fuel poverty

The Energy Heritage Project has been a partnership between Edinburgh World Heritage, and the sustainable development organisation Changeworks. As a case study the project focused on nine category B- listed Georgian tenement flats within the World Heritage Site, owned by Lister Housing Co-operative.

A series of simple non-invasive energy saving measures were introduced such as secondary glazing, draught proofing, replacing shutters, floor and loft insulation, low energy lighting and energy advice visits. The results were:

• The annual energy costs of each flat were reduced by an average of £175 (in some cases up to £400).
• Annual CO2 emissions of each flat were reduced by an average of over 1 tonne (in some cases 2.4 tonnes).
• Annual energy consumption of each flat was reduced by an average of 5,000 kWh (in some cases up to 12,000 kWh).

The lessons learned from the project have been published in a comprehensive guide for householders and professionals, published by Changeworks with support from Edinburgh World Heritage and Eaga Partnership Charitable Trust. This interactive guide is available for free download"

http://www.ewht.org.uk/Energy-Heritage-Project.aspx


I think as I said - Mr Roden has rather jumped the gun, in fact there is no u-turn in immediate view, but any anti-heritage agenda story usually emanates from him I note.

Still, those making cash from DG will be rubbing hands with glee.



11

Zoobee,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 14:07:41
about time they changed their minds on this.

I don't get how knocking down part of the old town is aceptable yet putting in some sash double glazing isn't.
12

,

03/09/2008 14:10:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
13

Buttress,

03/09/2008 14:12:18
Knocking down part of the Old Town is no more acceptable than spoiling historic buildings by removing the historic windows.

And the 'ban' has more to do with the national protection of listed buildings than council policy.

14

Irn-Bruce,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 15:17:34
#5 - I agree entirely.

I too put in double-glazed, sealed, timber sash-and-case units (I'm not listed, but in a conservation area).

They fitted in exactly to where the old single-glazed windows were and, to all intents and purposes, look the same. They have draught excluders, and even have Pilkington-K glass.

Aside from the fact that they'll need repainting externally every 6-7 years, which isn't a big job, they're every bit as good as UPVC units.

When the old windows were removed in 2002, some newspaper that had been used a lagging came out with them, dated in the late 1950s, so I fully expect the new windows (if well maintained) to last just a long.

I see no reason why listed buildings couldn't have them either!
15

Buttress,

03/09/2008 15:34:47
Oh well - clearly the tenets of sound conservation is lost on some. As is what I said about DG units and failure.

Bet they don't look the same. Replicas rarely do, same with furniture. I'd prefer a real Chippendale to a fake.

As for using uPVC and good in the same sentence...



16

JFW,

New Town 03/09/2008 16:17:16
If they made this u-turn I'd replace our single glazed, good condition, draught-proofed windows immediately. Apart from the heat-loss, there is also the question of sound-proofing (a significant benefit in the city centre with all the drunks at the weekend) and condensation (in winter you are mopping up pools of water off the bedroom window frames every morning).
Also - Secondary glazing, the so-called alternative, is an ugly option that impacts more on the look of these buildings than any replacement windows would. Not to mention the fact that your shutters can usually no longer be used.
About time people started seeing sense about this but chances are they'll try and tax our parked cars to reduce c02 before they'll allow us to do anything about heat-loss from our houses.
17

Buttress,

03/09/2008 16:23:23
I have single glazed windows and don't find them much of a problem. I close the shutters when it gets dark.

But then I chose to live in a historic house, because of its history and don't want to rip out original architectural features. Where to stop?
18

Reuldubh,

03/09/2008 16:36:58
#19 Do you cook on an old range, heat your home with an open fire, have your weekly wash in a tin bath and tip your effluent from a bucket out of the window into the street from your historical house. Or is it just some "modernisation" you object too?
19

Buttress,

03/09/2008 16:44:49
Where would it end?

Why not demolish the lot and rebuild - cavity walls, low rooms, etc etc...

(Actually I do have open fires...)

No need to replace historic glass and joinery - draughtproof, repair, re-use. The reality is that not a vast amount of heat is being lost through msot windows in period buildings - too small a glass area.


20

The Geniune Mario Antionette,

03/09/2008 18:06:11
bring back a window tax & we'll see how much these people really want double glazing.
21

seanie,

03/09/2008 19:21:15
uPVC windows are the work of the Devil.

Ugly, shoddy and toxic.
22

ashby,

Portobello 07/10/2008 20:51:01
Interesting chat here,i am a traditional woodworker who owns a listed building and considering the double glazing option,we have over 500 panes to consider!It IS possible to use the original sashes,modify,and put back in situ with NO detriment to visual appearance and no need to replace the frames with new wood ,pvc or other ;i.remove window [take off parting and staff beads,cut rope,tie knot before you let go].ii.dipnstrip with glass still in.iii.remove soft putty,all of a sudden a VERY easy job.iv.NOW and only now get a joiner in with a router to increase the depth of the rebate so as to accept a double glazed unit of identical size,[or DIY,it's easy].v.put in new units,putty and put back with new seals on staff and parting beads.One window per day,£250 joiner,dipnstrip £60, plus £35/dg unit [roughly 300x200].........

 

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