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Buyers line up for parts of HBOS empire

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Published Date: 29 October 2008
RIVAL bidders are eyeing key parts of the HBOS group, in a move that could cast further doubt on Lloyds TSB's takeover plans, The Scotsman understands.
Clerical Medical, an HBOS insurance firm, and Insight Investment, a £112billion asset management business, are believed to be attracting interest.

Their sale could generate billions for stricken HBOS and lessen the need for a Lloyds TSB "rescue"
.

The development prompted calls for a re-examination of the deal, with business leaders saying the interest showed the takeover was not the only option on the table.

The revelations emerged on the day Alex Salmond, the First Minister, travelled to London for talks with Lloyds TSB executives.

A senior independent investment banking source told The Scotsman he was "aware of buyers" who would be interested in acquiring the two HBOS subsidiaries.

The suitors are believed to be overseas companies that are well established in the financial services sector. Jim Spowart, the founder of Intelligent Finance, said the fact there was interest in the two HBOS subsidiaries showed "we should not be sleepwalking towards the Lloyds deal".

He said: "What this shows is that elements of HBOS are quite a viable option. There are parts which are lucrative.

"Clerical Medical is good. Esure (also owned by HBOS] is good. The banking parts will be good as well. The fact there are these viable parts shows we should not be continuing down the road we are on. I do not understand why we are."

An HBOS spokesman insisted last night that the "only deal that is being considered" was the takeover by Lloyds TSB, and the bank was "not aware of any approach" for the insurance and asset management arms.

However, any such approach would need to be considered by the board on behalf of HBOS shareholders. And if the businesses were sold after a Lloyds TSB takeover takes effect, many HBOS investors would feel aggrieved that the proceeds of two substantial businesses would be heavily diluted.

But any bid for Insight or Clerical Medical would face two obstacles. First, the pricing of financial assets and businesses in today's turbulent conditions would present a major problem. Secondly, while rival UK insurers might be interested, firms in the sector face pressures of their own and do not have the cash for a bid.

In addition, raising finance from banks in the current conditions would be virtually impossible.

"There are loads of deals waiting to be done", one industry analyst said yesterday.

However, an opportunistic overseas company may be able to raise the capital to make a credible offer for the HBOS assets.

Meanwhile, Mr Salmond said his meeting with Lloyds TSB executives had been "constructive" and that the bank was an "honourable company".

The First Minister said Lloyds was trying to uphold the interests of its staff and shareholders, and it was "entitled to do that".

He said he had used the meeting with Sir Victor Blank, the chairman, Eric Daniels, the chief executive, and Archie Kane, the chief executive of Lloyds TSB-owned Scottish Widows, to make the case for keeping jobs in Scotland. Their meeting ran over time by 45 minutes.

An estimated 17,000 HBOS jobs are based in Scotland, as are 7,000 Lloyds TSB jobs, and it is feared thousands could be lost if the merger goes through.

Mr Salmond conceded there had been no fresh guarantees on jobs, and Tavish Scott, the leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, accused him of having "thrown in the towel" on the campaign to retain HBOS as an independent bank.

The First Minister said the Lloyds TSB executives had "repeated their commitments that they have a focus on Scottish jobs" and that the Bank of Scotland would still issue notes and keep its corporate headquarters on The Mound in Edinburgh. Such assurances were made in the original announcement of the deal.

However, Mr Salmond said due to the bank's "organisational structure", it was unable to give more details without consulting shareholders.

He said he told the Lloyds executives that Scotland boasted "better-quality people, which you can get at a much more competitive rate", adding that the cost associated with hiring a worker in Scotland was up to 40 per cent lower than in London.

Mr Scott, who accused the First Minister of caving in to corporate pressure,

raised the issue at a meeting in London with Jim Murphy, the Scottish Secretary.

Later, the Lib Dem leader said: "This merger is not a done deal, so it is astonishing that Alex Salmond has thrown in the towel. The First Minister was last in and now seems to be first out on our campaign to keep HBOS independent.

"As First Minister of Scotland, he should be standing up for Scottish interests. Instead of meeting Lloyds officials, he should have sought a meeting with the UK government."

But Mr Salmond insisted it was his duty to meet banking bosses make the case for Scotland to remain a leading financial centre.

Regardless of people's opinions on the merger talks, "Lloyds TSB remains a very respected and honourable organisation", he said.

Mr Salmond said the deal was likely but "not inevitable", adding: "As a likely outcome… my duty as First Minister is to put forward the Scottish case."

He went on: "My preference is an independent bank, but my duty is to make sure, whatever the circumstances, that Scotland gets the best possible deal."

A joint statement from Lloyds TSB and Mr Salmond after the meeting said: "The Scottish Government represented the interests of its 'shareholders' – the Scottish people – by presenting its case on Scotland's three core strengths: a proven track record in financial services, the quality and talent of workforce, and the competitive advantage of Scottish location."

The two assets that could provide HBOS with a major cash injection

CLERICAL Medical was founded in 1824 to help the families of doctors and clergymen and has evolved into one of the UK's biggest pensions and investment providers.

It relinquished its mutual status in 1995 and merged with Halifax in 1997. The two brands were absorbed into HBOS in 2001. Based primarily in Bristol and with offices in Glasgow and across the UK, it deals exclusively with intermediaries and provides pensions, income drawdown products and investment bonds.

Together with other insurance operations in the group, annual premium income last year totalled £1.9billion, with personal pensions accounting for £487million and sales of investment bonds £836billion.

It had an "embedded" value under European accounting rules of £4.7billion and could, in normal market conditions, be expected to fetch between £3.8billion and £5.2billion. However, in today's conditions, any bid would be significantly lower than a year ago.

IN 2002, Clerical Medical Investment Management Limited – which had been incorporated in 1987 – was re-branded Insight Investment.

INSIGHT

In January 2003, Insight acquired Rothschild Asset Management Limited and it is now one of the UK's largest investment managers. As of June 30, 2008, it had £112 billion in assets under management. Nine months previously, its assets totalled £96billion. It manages money for private investors, pension funds, insurance groups and other institutions, as well as providing the investment expertise for some of the UK's best-known financial brands such as Halifax. It employs around 500 and the most recent HBOS interim report showed it had net inflows of £8.7billion in the first six months of this year.

Archie Kane, of Lloyds TSB, has told The Scotsman he believes Insight and Scottish Widows Investment Partnership would be a serious force in the fund management market after the takeover.

Thousands more homes are being repossessed as arrears mount up

REPOSSESSIONS have soared across the UK in the past year, according to figures released yesterday.

Householders are losing their homes at an increasing rate as they struggle to cope with the credit crunch and the economic downturn.

Repossessions increased by 71 per cent in the second quarter of this year, according to the Financial Services Authority (FSA), which said 11,054 homes were taken in the three months to the end of June, compared with 6,476 during the same period of 2007.

The regulator said the number of repossessions had been growing "significantly" as increasing numbers of homeowners struggled to clear arrears they had built up.

Although separate figures are not available for Scotland, charities have said they are concerned about the situation north of the Border.

Campaigners described the figures as "shocking and worse than expected".

However, Andy Young, policy and strategy manager at the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations, said: "Sadly these figures come as no surprise due to the economic downturn.

"The worry is that this is going to cause unprecedented demand for affordable rented housing which landlords may struggle to fulfil.

"Another worry is that tenants already struggling with economic pressures may have problems paying their rent."

According to the FSA, the number of homeowners getting into arrears had remained fairly constant at around 54,000 each quarter since early 2007. But with people increasingly struggling to pay off that debt, the total number who are behind with their mortgage is rising.

A total of 312,000 people were in mortgage arrears at the end of the second quarter, 3 per cent more than during the previous three months and a 16 per cent jump on the same period of 2007. The total value of arrears now stands at £1.6 billion, with 2.58 per cent of all mortgages in arrears.

Graeme Brown, director of Shelter Scotland, the housing and homelessness charity, said: "The UK-wide FSA figures are not only shocking and worse than expected, they highlight the crippling severity of the credit crunch on ordinary homeowners.

"It is easy for the FSA to issue new figures highlighting the problem, but as the key financial regulatory body it must start using its teeth to stop lenders rushing to court to repossess people's homes.

"We still fail to know the extent of the problem in Scotland, as repossession figures solely for Scotland do not exist, but there's no reason to believe that more and more Scots families are not facing the trauma of mortgage arrears and, at worst, repossession."

He said staff were receiving increasing calls to the helpline, which has just received a £40,000 boost from the Scottish Government.

Vince Cable, the Lib Dem treasury spokesman, pointed to a Bank of England report released yesterday which showed the number of homeowners who had borrowed more than 3.5 times their income had shot up to more than a third of borrowers.

"Many of those people are now at great risk," he said. "If conditions deteriorate further, the current stream of repossessions will become a torrent."

The FSA's figures, compiled from returns submitted by around 300 mortgage lenders, also showed that the rate at which mortgage lending is growing almost stalled during the second quarter of the year.

Outstanding debt totalled £1.178 trillion in the quarter, 7.5 per cent more than in the same period of 2007, but only 1 per cent higher than during the first quarter of the year.

Lindsay McIntosh

Brown urges rich states to give more to IMF

GORDON Brown, the Prime Minister, called yesterday for a "substantial" increase in the resources available to the International Monetary Fund to shore up countries struggling due to the financial crisis.

He said an immediate rise in the £150 billion fund available to the IMF would lessen the risk of "contagion" from eastern European countries like Hungary spreading around the world.

Speaking at No 10 before his departure for Paris for talks with Nicolas Sarkozy, the French president, Mr Brown did not rule out an extra British contribution but made clear he believed the bulk of any additional money should come from China and the oil-rich states of the Gulf.

He said: "It is in every nation's interest, and in the interests of hard-working families in our country and every country, that financial contagion does not spread."

He said that in recent days he had spoken with Dominique Strauss-Kahn, the IMF's managing director, Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, and Mr Sarkozy about his proposals. He said they were looking at similar ideas. He has also spoken to Ferenc Gyurcsany, the Hungarian prime minister.

After his talks with Mr Sarkozy, the current president of the EU, Mr Brown will meet Ms Merkel in London tomorrow.

He said: "We have seen in recent days the financial crisis spreading to other countries – middle-income countries, eastern European countries. Capital flight has made a number of countries potential victims of this crisis.

It is clear that the whole of the international community must have an interest in stopping this contagion."

Andrew Woodcock


Banks lend to LILO debtors

THREE high street banks have been extending credit to people on the brink of bankruptcy.

Since April nearly 3,000 people have declared themselves bankrupt under the low income, low assets (LILO) category.

To qualify they must have an income of less than £229 per week and total assets worth less than£10,000.

Figures show that 34 per cent of LILO debtors were in debt to Halifax Bank of Scotland, 22 per cent owed money to Lloyds TSB and 16 per cent were in debt to Royal Bank of Scotland

GERMAN financial regulators are to investigate after shares of car maker Volkswagen jumped 82 per cent yesterday, a day after a similar surge.

Speculation on the reason for the rise centred on a reduced number of shares available and on hedge funds needing to unwind bad bets on the share's direction.

The surge came amid reports big investors had been forced to buy scarce shares to get out of mistaken bets the shares would fall.

On Sunday, Porsche Automobile Holding, said it increased its stake in VW to 42.6 per cent plus enough options to give it 74.1 per cent.

Yesterday, Today, Wolfsburg-based Volkswagen's shares spiked as high as 1,005 (£785) in Frankfurt trading, nearly doubling yesterday's close.

At that level, Volkswagen was worth some 296 billion euros (£232 billion), greater than Exxon's market cap of £214 billion.

They later settled back to close at 945 (£740).

WALL Street had another astounding advance yesterday, as the Dow Jones soared nearly 900 points in its second-largest point gain ever as late-day bargain hunters stormed into the market.

There did not appear to be any one catalyst for the surge that saw the Dow nearly double its gain in the last hour of trading. Many analysts said investors were grabbing up stocks in the belief the market had fallen too far in recent sessions.

Some said buying early in the day came from anticipation of an interest rate cut tomorrow by the Federal Reserve.

The Dow rose 889.35, or 10.88 per cent, to 9,065.12. That was its second-largest point gain, coming after the 936 points the Dow jumped on October 13.



Page 1 of 1

 
1

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/10/2008 09:43:50
Anyone seen or heard of what Iain Gray thinks? Has he made one statement on this affair so far? I can't recall him being quoted once.

Not really doing much in the whole affair, 17000 Scottish jobs not important for him?
2

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/10/2008 09:44:39
Where are Scottish Labour and their 'we will speak up for Scotland' mantra?

That didn't last long!
3

Calum10,

29/10/2008 09:53:22
Selling off subsidiaries is what RBS have done to safeguard their position. Indeed several overseas banks are involved in the same process.

The BIG problem for HBOS shareholders is the HBOS board. They have adopted a completely blinkered approach, for them it is the Lloyds takeover and nothing else.

For HBOS to have any independent future and for shareholders to protect their investments the answer is to SACK THE HBOS BOARD.

4

Joe90,

29/10/2008 09:56:29
Apart from criticising Alex salmond's sterling efforts, what has Tavish the Turnip done?
5

Cheradenine,

Edinburgh 29/10/2008 09:59:55
#4 Alliteration strikes! And he's only been Lib Dem leader for a month or two (Also STFU).
6

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/10/2008 10:10:12
3 Calum 10
The HBOS shareholders will, no doubt, vote on the basis of their best interests. One wouldn't expect them to do anything else.
7

john z,

edinburgh 29/10/2008 10:12:22
Journalist : ' so, Iain Gray, what is you opinion on the Lloyds acquisition of HBOS'

Iain: 'hold on......(Hurredly calls Darling, then Brown, followed by A.Campbell - just to ensure he is 'on message').

There are two political groups in Scotland trying to ensure the best for Scotland, albeit much of what Tavish says is not very useful. They are, the SNP and LibDems.

It is indeed good news if there are active interests in HBOS subsidiaries, ensuring the takeover does not go ahead.

People should be aware, Westminster goes on Christmas holidays in five weeks. I would venture to suggest that this very dirty little takeover of HBOS will go ahead just after that date, leaving little room for political comment, and whilst everybody has their minds on other things.

Brown and Darling must know this is a bad deal, but seem hell bent on using this chance to obliterate the Scottish banking sector and thousands of Scottish jobs for purely political reasons.

Please, Glenrothes, vote anything but Labour. Let the clowns Darling and Brown know what people in Scotland think about this dirty little deal.
8

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/10/2008 10:17:45
9 Bring#

How is Salmond responsible for the sale of the bank again?

What are you talking about now?
9

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/10/2008 10:19:05
8 John#

I think it shows exactly what kind of leader Gray is, a non-entity just as was predicted.
10

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/10/2008 10:22:07
Bring them On#

You have completely lost your mind. I know you were up early this morning as you have no girfriend, woman or children and job but really trying to smear Salmond with selling HBOS off..have you completely lost your mind?

You are turning into the resient Gollom of the Scotsman!
11

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/10/2008 10:29:00
Brown acts in haste and Scotland repents at leisure.

The only time Brown tries to act decisively to stop the 'dithering' tag being applied yet again he makes a complete mess of it.

He can't back down now, he has sold off HBOS on the cheap and that is that even though it is clear now the bank could and can be saved to operate independently.

Another huge blinder from Brown, Scotland to pay the bill of course!
12

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 29/10/2008 10:31:00

BTO @#9,
What happened to the same topic we all were talking about, is it somewhere else or were all comments removed.
13

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/10/2008 10:32:06
16 Bring#

Listen fool. This has nothing to do with Salmond.

Brown has forced the bank to merge and talked down the prospects of it remainimg independent (although this is a complete fabrication).

Market confidence in HBOS has now opened the window for the vultures to hover, what has it got to do with Salmond you half-wit?
14

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/10/2008 10:41:57
23 sm753#

Yes it was when the EU guaranteed that no bank would fail from a few weeks ago (can't remember when exactly) but this secured the Irish banks (they have played a blinder don't you think compared to the UK?).

I remember Brian Cowen stating something to the effect that the security had also given the Irish a 'new set of tools' to deal with any future problems.

Scotland loses all it's banks and Ireland keeps theirs, i wonder who has done better?
15

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/10/2008 10:43:09
Bring them on#

You are middle-aged? I am very very surprised as i had yu down for 18 at most with the level of your posts!
16

Ugly George,

29/10/2008 10:43:11
17 Nevski
"He can't back down now, he has sold off HBOS on the cheap"

As many people have pointed out, if this is the case then the shareholders will reject the deal.
17

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 29/10/2008 10:45:28

#24 BTO,

Is this the same thread as the one we were all on at about 3 in the morning, or is it somewere else, were all our comments on the same article removed? or are they somewere else?
18

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 29/10/2008 10:52:12
Well here is one Nat who is prepared to admit that he got it wrong.

I thought I knew how desperate the unionists were not to lose Glenrothes.

I thought that they could sink no lower in their efforts to win.

But no I got it wrong.

Not only have they come up with stories that never were, like how Sharia courts would be set up in Scotland and take over from the ones we have and
not only have they deliberately misquoted Alex Salmond, his financial advisers and Nicola Sturgeon and not only have they gone very quiet on Gordon Browns role in the financial turmoil the world is now facing or the shear stupidity of the remarks directed at other countries and the running of their economies, countries which now range from Ireland to America remarks which will come back to haunt us some day, and not only did they positively gloat when Scottish banks got into trouble and at the possible job losses because they thought they could use it against the Nat's, they also in the shape of Gordon Brown no less, then looked for unity in dealing with the problem and then promptly broke that unity when it suited them with attacks on the SNP, not just once but now twice.

The shear stupidity expressed in many of their comments regarding the First Minister following yesterdays meeting sets a new low even for them, they now expect people to believe that decisions were going to be reached at that meeting and that (as was expected by everybody else) as none was, that this is some kind of failure.

So much for unity of purpose and lets all pull together unionist style, so much for peoples jobs and so much for Scotland.

This is the real mark of their desperation, not to mention their integrity.

Yes I got it wrong!




19

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 29/10/2008 10:52:13
Well here is one Nat who is prepared to admit that he got it wrong.

I thought I knew how desperate the unionists were not to lose Glenrothes.

I thought that they could sink no lower in their efforts to win.

But no I got it wrong.

Not only have they come up with stories that never were, like how Sharia courts would be set up in Scotland and take over from the ones we have and
not only have they deliberately misquoted Alex Salmond, his financial advisers and Nicola Sturgeon and not only have they gone very quiet on Gordon Browns role in the financial turmoil the world is now facing or the shear stupidity of the remarks directed at other countries and the running of their economies, countries which now range from Ireland to America remarks which will come back to haunt us some day, and not only did they positively gloat when Scottish banks got into trouble and at the possible job losses because they thought they could use it against the Nat's, they also in the shape of Gordon Brown no less, then looked for unity in dealing with the problem and then promptly broke that unity when it suited them with attacks on the SNP, not just once but now twice.

The shear stupidity expressed in many of their comments regarding the First Minister following yesterdays meeting sets a new low even for them, they now expect people to believe that decisions were going to be reached at that meeting and that (as was expected by everybody else) as none was, that this is some kind of failure.

So much for unity of purpose and lets all pull together unionist style, so much for peoples jobs and so much for Scotland.

This is the real mark of their desperation, not to mention their integrity.

Yes I got it wrong!




20

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/10/2008 10:56:39
25 Nevski
The markets don't seem to share your rosy view over the position of the Irish Banks. Just before the Irish govt made their guarantee Bank of Ireland shares were trading at around 4 euros. Today (last time I checked) they were trading at 1.68 having been as low as 1.34. bearing in mind that the share price was in the region of 17 euros a year ago, it looks as if Bank of Ireland is still in deep trouble.
21

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/10/2008 11:05:38
36 George#

Ireland have not lost one bank regardless of what share prices are doing, Scotland has lost two, full stop George.


37 Bring them On#
How is Salmond responsible you idiot? Salmond went to Lloyds to put the case for the retention of jobs in Scotland, nothing more, nothing less.

Salmond has a responsibility to save jobe (unlike Gray where is he?).

Brown forced the merger, Brown to blame for all the jobs that go; he has made a massive mistake and it's bye bye Scottish Banking if this goes ahead.

All thanks to Brown!
22

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/10/2008 11:15:30
43 Jackie Priest
"What the hell have the been playing at, playing with people's jobs and lives and messing up this situation"

"Just look what they've allowed to happen to our two main banks."

I don't follow the logic of your argument. The two banks got themselves into a mess. Now the govt bails them out with £30bn and you complain about the govt's actions nad not the banks'.
23

Scoczech,

29/10/2008 11:29:09
BTO
Maybe if you stopped posting then we might get a post to stay open, so we all can comment and not one of your "Watch the pound in the next ten minutes.
" or your dribble about Salmond. I keep waiting on your big exclusive whether it be on football or politics in your own words "watch this space".

WE ARE STILL WATCHING!!!!!

"When you have seen as much of life as i have please comment here."

Oh please, If for some reason you have seen much it does not show in your posts.
24

Jacqueline Hyde ,

On the shelf 29/10/2008 11:29:32
I hope these would-be buyers are aware that there are a lot of nasty skeletons on the HBOS cupboard - including a number of criminal issues that the authorities could bring to court at any time in the future. I could never understand why BoS didn't fly the Jolly Roger over the Mound when Peter Burt was at the helm.
25

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/10/2008 11:30:46
sm753#

Ireland has lost how many banks again? None i think you will find, how many has Scotland lost thanks to the UK..we have lost two.

The only country now without any national bank or a central bank...sold down the river by Brown and Darling who have over-reacted and now have no other choice than to press ahead and give away the bank of Scotland!

Everyone now seems to agree thatthey could remain independent so why is the government refusing to back them up?


26

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/10/2008 11:33:48
65 sm753#

I can't remember the quote but i remember that the EU said that no banks would be allowed to fail and that Cowen stated this added security to the Irish banks and than they now had a niumber of new tools to deal with any eventualities..something to that effect.

Fact remains, Ireland have not lost one bank so far and how much have they borrowed to do it? Nothing as far as i am aware.

UK..down down down in debt, sterling being sld off by every country, pound devalued and dropping like a stone..what a joke Brown is, no more an economist than Bring them On..
27

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/10/2008 11:36:06
Anyone seen iain Grey, that gut that was elected leader (hoho) and was going to speak up for Scotland?

Just where can he be i wonder?
28

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/10/2008 11:46:38
74 sm753#

I am not jumping up and down i just think that Brown and Darling have acted in haste here but that the consequences for Scotland should not be based on a knee-jerk reaction..seems reasonable to me!

The options are as follows. Lloyds take-over of HBOS goes ahead, jobs will go, subsidiaries will be sold off and merged and the profitable part of the company kept with their HQ being based in England.

There is nothing in this deal for Scotland, just job losses and a winding down of HBOS it is not 'being saved' as you put it.

The question remains if economists and senior bankers and businessmen and now even the Lib Dems believe that bank can act independently WHY is the government pushing ahead without a review of the alternatives?

It all begins to look very suspicious.
29

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/10/2008 11:47:42
72 Nevski
I am rather perturbed that you have prejudged the whole issue of the Irish banks. As i said earlier, their share prices have been plummetting in recent weeks and it appears that they are still in great difficulty. we do not yet know how this is going to play out but you seem to assume that the Irish govt must be right and the UK govt must be wrong. How - time will tell which option was better.

The other thing I have to mention is that you should always be wary of comparing things with another country unless you look at the whole picture. If you read articles from papers such as the Irish Independent you get a very different perspective from yours. They are deeply worried. Also thousands gathered for a demonstartion in Dublin against the Irish govt's new measures. These include the withdrawal of free healthcare for those over 70 and the increase of the charge for going to accident and emergency to 100 euros. Can you imagine the outcry here if similar measures were introduced.
30

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/10/2008 11:50:17
75 sm753#

Here is the quote for you ok and the reason why it does not apply to the UK:

'European leaders meeting in Paris have agreed a plan to tackle the banking crisis, saying no big institution will be allowed to fail.

They pledged to guarantee loans between banks until the end of 2009, and said they would put money into them by buying preference shares.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy said they were taking unprecedented steps.

World governments have been racing to throw banks a lifeline before the major markets re-open on Monday.

News of the rescue plan came from Mr Sarkozy - whose country currently holds the rotating presidency of the EU - after talks between leaders of the 15 countries in the euro currency zone.

UK Prime Minister Gordon Brown - not a member of the eurozone club - attended parts of the talks.'

31

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/10/2008 11:53:00
77 George#

I am not diasgreeing in any way, if the squeeze is put on then Ireland will go just as will every other country although they are protected in the euro.

The small first and then the large, no country has the money required and it's as simple as that.
32

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/10/2008 11:54:23
sm753#

Seem to have gone all quiet, everything OK or just the shock of what the UK has spend while Ireland has done it without a bean shocking for you?

Oh they have retained all their banks by the way, better part of the euorzone that the UK it seems!
33

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/10/2008 11:55:39
sm753#

Unless you had not notices, Lloys are being bailed out as well, why is the government doing this if their 'liquidity' is fine and dandy?

All quiet now on Ireland i see?
34

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/10/2008 11:57:02
sm753

70% of state ownership means a Scottish share at around 7%.

Still don't get it do you?

They are gone!
35

Ugly George,

29/10/2008 12:05:29
78 Nevski
"They pledged to guarantee loans between banks until the end of 2009, and said they would put money into them by buying preference shares.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy said they were taking unprecedented steps"

That is precisely what the UK govt did. The £37bn was to buy preference shares and hundreds of billions were made available to ensure liquidity - i.e. to guarantee the movement of loans. That is why Sarkozy openly welcomed Brown's move and together with the EU followed it.

But now you are saying that what Brown did was wrong and what Sarkozy and the EU did is right. Where is the logic in that?

36

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/10/2008 12:10:34
87 nevski
"70% of state ownership means a Scottish share at around 7%".

Yes but what was the situation before. RBS and HBOS were public companies and, as such, people or institutions from all over the world were shareholders. Only a minority of the shares would have been held in Scotland anyway so they were not majority owned in Scotland before the bail out.
37

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/10/2008 12:12:05
89 George#

What on earth are you talking about? What i said was that Ireland in simply guaranteeing the deposits in banks and beng part of the euro-zone have secured their banking sector at no cost to the taxpayer!

Brown and Darling acted too fast in demanding that HBOS was taken over, that is all that i am saying.

This looks increasingly like a complete mess now with no-one knowing where the bank stands, if liquidity is available to them as an independent bank, will other banks now seek to buy them out..total bloody mess, even the politicians are going in ten different directions!
38

The Trossachs Hasher,

29/10/2008 12:15:15
No matter what way you look at it, we are about to be shafted on this HBOS deal.

the government are quite obviously determined to push this deal through.

YOu can bet your bottom dollar that someone will be benefitting out of this - and it won't be the Scottish public.

We are about to lose a major Scottish institution and all you lot can do it make pedantic comments and squabble.

Maybe you should try coming up with an idea on how to stop it. Anyone fancy a good old demonstration? I am sure those cobbles around the Mound would come in handy.
39

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/10/2008 12:17:27
93 Nevski
"What on earth are you talking about? What i said was that Ireland in simply guaranteeing the deposits in banks and beng part of the euro-zone have secured their banking sector at no cost to the taxpayer"

How can you say that. I quoted from your post 78 and detailed how the EU plan was, in effect, the same as the one in the UK. You seem to be unaware of what you said in post 78 and change what you said. Please read it again.
40

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/10/2008 12:19:44
92 Jackie Priest
Please check the numbers. You addressed your comments to post 86 which was one of mine and obviously not the one to which your reply was intended.
41

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/10/2008 12:24:32
94 sm753#

Why labour the point? Go and write to Brian Cowen the Irish Taoiseach and explain to him your points, he seems to be under the impression that the announcement was a vital safety-net which offered him further 'tools' to aid Irish banks should they be needed.

You obviousely know better and should alert him to the fact that he is wrong!
42

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/10/2008 12:30:32
100 nevski
I am afraid that your desire to portray whatever the UK govt does as wrong and whatever the Irish govt/EU does is right has got you into a bit of a muddle. As I pointed out, the EU strategy is the same as the UK one and that is why Sarkozy is on record as welcoming Brown's move. That is common nknowledge.

Don't get me wrong. I have said before on these threads that I am not a fan of Gordon Brown but that does not mean that I blindly asume that everything he does must be wrong.
43

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/10/2008 12:36:35
101 George#

No, wrong. I just believe the Irish have dealt with the situation in a much better way than the UK that is all, anyone can see that, especially those in Scotland i would have thought.



44

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/10/2008 12:46:51
102 Nevski
"No, wrong. I just believe the Irish have dealt with the situation in a much better way than the UK that is all, anyone can see that, especially those in Scotland i would have thought."


As I said before, time will tell. But, if the UK strategy was so bad, why was it welcomed and adopted by the EU and why did only 3 EU countries follow the example of Ireland. Whatever the rights and wrongs may be, it does not appear that the majority of EU countries agree with you.

As far as the Scottish perspective is concerned, I pointed out earlier that the banks were not majority owned in Scotland anyway - they were owned by shareholders from all over the world. Whether HBOS and Lloyds TSB merge is up to the shareholders as it was before anyway and RBS will continue to operate.
45

57vintage,

Keith 29/10/2008 12:52:06
What a lot of bald men arguing over a comb!

The bank put itself in the position it's in - see yesterday's story about the sub-prime sotter it got itself into.

The UK Govt has put aside legislation (door bolted after horse has gone but all that could be done in the circumstances) to allow the bank to be saved by The bank of Horse (as my kids call it).

If someone else wants to make a bid and the bail-out can be guaranteed (has this been clarified yet?) the board representing the shareholders will decide on the best option in December. These are the people who own the bank and they can be guaranteed to act in their own interests which will not necessarily chime with HBOS workers.

Salmond has done what he can in the circumstances and deserves some credit, not only for taking some action but for applying reason to the statement he issued.

Tavish Scott might make an appointment to see the heid bummers at the Bank of Horse to see what he can do instead of yapping from the sidelines.

Iain Gray's view will undoubtedly be that of the government, so I don't see what is to be gained, apart from the usual slinging of mud in the direction of political opponents, in mumping about his apparent silence.

More and more I am convinced that a significant number of posters on here go out of their way to take offence. That's very sad.
46

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/10/2008 13:03:33
102 Nevski
PS
As far as RBS being "lost" is concerned, the govt has indicated that it does not intend to hold onto the shares indefinitely. I assume that, if the banks recover, the govt will sell its shareholding. It may make a profit on the deal and RBS would be back as it was - a public company owned by shareholders all over the world. What would be wrong with that - RBS saved, returned to the market and a little profit or the taxpayer.
47

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/10/2008 13:25:08
109 sm753
Don't speak too soon. There are many hours left in the daY.
48

Alan B,

29/10/2008 14:19:59
Given that Brown is responsible for much of this mess I cannot believe he had not been pushed to resign. The guy is clueless. Even if he does something right now, his creditibility is so shot that noone will believe him (other than the sheep that still support labour).

49

Rufus T. Firefly,

29/10/2008 15:18:36
Anyone seen todays Daily Mail Front Page where some Norwegian minister humiliates Alex Salmond?

He says that no comparison between Scotland and Norway can be made as the 2 countries are totally different in so many ways.

I am trying to find it online.

Will post as soon as I get it.
50

New Town Resident,

29/10/2008 15:43:34
#100 Nevski. Just for the record, today's Irish Independent has the below. Unlike you HBOS appears to prefer the British scheme to the Irish scheme it seems;

By Joe Brennan
Wednesday October 29 2008
Halifax-Bank of Scotland (Ireland) has decided to give the Government's €500bn bank guarantee scheme a wide berth for fear onerous supervision of lenders under the State's protection could prevent it from providing competitive banking products. The lender, a unit of Edinburgh-based HBOS, which is merging with Lloyds TSB, has opted for the sole coverage of the UK's banking scheme. The British government is injecting €11.5bn of fresh capital into HBOS as part of a three-pronged plan for its banking system, which also includes a loan guarantee and liquidity fund. "Signing up to the two schemes is tantamount to insuring your house twice -- it doesn't make sense," said Mark Duffy, chief executive of Halifax-BoSI. He added that joining the Irish scheme would restrict the lender's ability to compete
51

Westfield Bairns,

falkirk 29/10/2008 16:30:59
I see the usual Unionist posters are on espouting the Nulabour propoganda, lots of e*se licking to the loathed and Anti Scottish Gordon Brown. I hope the good people of Glenrothes take note of the character of people who support Nulabour with their usual lies and deceit
52

Ewan Oosami,

29/10/2008 17:08:54
Cherry picking of HBOS subsidiaries is the last thing that's needed. As an HBOS shareholder I will vote against that as I suspect most will - unfortunately we are but a small voice against the self interested city big boys.
53

,

29/10/2008 19:16:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
54

ThomasP,

29/10/2008 19:58:25
#113.

Norway and Scotland are very different. It's sad to say that Norway outpreforms Scotland and Britain on so many levels...

Norway is one country that Scotland can aspire to. End of.
55

Rufus T. Firefly,

29/10/2008 20:11:42
#120 Yes indeed. Scotland can aspire to be like Norway. Nothing wrong with that.

However as I am sure you will agree, aspiration does not pay the bills.
56

,

29/10/2008 20:28:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
57

,

29/10/2008 20:29:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
58

,

29/10/2008 20:31:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
59

Westfield Bairns,

falkirk 29/10/2008 21:33:39
My my was this story in the Daily Mail, surprised at them having an Anti-Scottish rant, NOT, Unionists just don't get it. This is the type of story that just encourages the Scottish people to vote for the SNP as they are the only party that represents them. Gordon Brown, Jim Murphy etc appear to spend most of their time sneering and slagging of their Country, oh and Ian Gray total nonentity
60

dude,

wishaw 29/10/2008 22:27:25
talking about AM2, i made nat comment of the week with the following snippet

posted on AM2's blog

Someone calling himself dude, presumably from Wishaw, has this peculiar view of this blog:
AM2 your blog is not only racist and selective it is also an outlet for your obvious bigotry of the orange flavour, we dont need your kind in Scotland so go home to your beloved England or NI, begone you bigot.

I’ve seen numerous comments of this type, but still can’t quite wrap my head around the thinking involved.


For some bizarre reason, despite my unrelenting exposure and condemnation of racism and sectarianism, and indeed my description of Orangism as “retrograde knuckledragging”, he imagines me to be “racist”, “orange” and a “bigot”. Yet he apparently doesn’t think that telling people to “begone” and “go home” to “England or NI” is in any way intolerant. Quite remarkable.
61

dude,

wishaw 29/10/2008 22:31:25
yup so its official, sm573 is AM2

also from his site is this

Scotland’s shame
Posted by Scottish Unionist at 3:49 PM. There are 9 comments.
From a perceptive piece by Tom Harris about the feeling induced by sectarianism:
It’s called “Scotland’s shame” for a reason: sectarianism makes you feel embarrassed to be Scottish. I hate it when the subject is even raised when I’m with English friends because I imagine they must look at us as a backward nation.
His post nails the issue; that’s exactly how it feels. But his description struck me for another reason: just a few days ago I felt something very similar, but in an altogether different context.

Apropos of nothing, an English friend (who is unaware of my dalliance with political blogging) said to me: “You Scots will probably give us the heave-ho, won’t you?”

Immediately, I felt a mixture of embarrassment, sadness, frustration and even a touch of anger. I was being associated with the separatist agenda which I so profoundly dislike. Moreover, it was personal: “give us the heave-ho”. How petty. How irrelevant. What a complete embarrassment!

And did she imagine me to think like that? Was she really under the impression that a majority of us in Scotland are preoccupied with political separation rather than practical solutions? Does she imagine that in Scotland we care so little for Britain’s long shared history, our vital culture and renowned institutions? If so, perhaps the English really do look at us as a backward nation — and in all honesty who could blame them?

Nationalism: another source of shame for Scotland.
62

Rufus T. Firefly,

29/10/2008 22:38:07
"Alex Salmond was dealt a humiliating blow last night by a country that the SNP reveres as proof that an independent Scotland would flourish.

For decades, Nationalists have cited oil-rich Norway as a powerful example of how a separate Scottish state would fare after the break-up of the United Kingdom.

But now, for the first time, a senior Norwegian government minister has heaped ridicule on the claim that the Scandinavian country’s experience bolsters the case for Scottish independence."

Looks like the discredited Salmond's Arc of Prosperity is a busted flush!

Iceland - Bust

Ireland - Almost Bust

Norway - An SNP spokesman said: ‘Self-evidently, Norway and Scotland are different countries'.


Ha Ha Ha - Give that SNP Spokesman a promotion.
63

Rufus T. Firefly,

29/10/2008 22:39:42
Salmond might be pen pals with Robert Mugabe, but clearly the Norwegian Ministers have no time for him.

Its Nevsky the Norwegian Ambassador I most feel sorry for.
64

dude,

wishaw 29/10/2008 22:43:12
134
Rufus T. Firefly,
29/10/2008 22:39:42
Salmond might be pen pals with Robert Mugabe, but clearly the Norwegian Ministers have no time for him.


think if you remember right Scotland was told that they could not even meet with Norways ministers over the interconnector, maybe if that meeting was allowed by our masters down south our countrys would be on better terms
65

Rufus T. Firefly,

29/10/2008 22:43:48
"Jonas Gahr Store can be contacted here umin@mfa.no".

Well done Hen Broon.

All the cybernats will start sending him email abuse now just because he dared to tell the truth.

Why not just get Nevsky, the Norwegian ambassador, to have a quiet word in his ear? He probably even speaks Norwegian.
66

dude,

wishaw 29/10/2008 22:46:03
Norway wants nothing to do with anyone who has links to the UK, and would you blame them after all the negative scaremongering comeing from the calamity twins and that other stalwart of Scottish culture Jim Murphy
67

dude,

wishaw 29/10/2008 22:48:07
136
Rufus T. Firefly,
29/10/2008 22:43:48
"Jonas Gahr Store can be contacted here umin@mfa.no".

Well done Hen Broon.

All the cybernats will start sending him email abuse now just because he dared to tell the truth.


Is that as bad as telling what AM2 aka sm573's real name is Alexander McKay who regularly posts unionist propaganda in the Herald
68

Rufus T. Firefly,

29/10/2008 22:49:20
135 Dude thats pie in the sky.

Salmond can have as many meetings as he wants with Norwegian Ministers.

He recently had meetings with the power brokers of the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey.

Next stop Andorra.
69

dude,

wishaw 29/10/2008 22:50:30
im beginning to wonder if there is only one unionist poster on all the forums and comments online, and its AM2 aka Alexander a one man crusade for the lies and treachery of the British Empire
70

Rufus T. Firefly,

29/10/2008 22:51:44
Alexander McKay. Surely not!

Sounds like a good Scottish name to me.

With a name like that, you would expect him to be a Gaelic Speaking Sheep Farmer that spent all his time watching the new Gaelic Channel.
71

Rufus T. Firefly,

29/10/2008 22:53:04
140 Dude, one Unionist poster??

Cannot be true. There are at least 2.
72

dude,

wishaw 29/10/2008 22:53:26
And who did Joke go meet, nobody cause he wasnt allowed, Salmond is advertising Scotland to anyone who will listen and good on him for it, he is laying the road ahead when independence comes, the forward thinking and vision of the SNP is there for all to see, even you if you take off your blinkered and bigoted glasses
73

Rufus T. Firefly,

29/10/2008 22:54:58
"He also accused Mr Salmond of misleading the public by praising Norway for ‘bailing out’ its banks – a claim he effectively dismissed as a lie.

The First Minister has repeatedly pointed to a £35billion ‘bank bailout’ by the Norwegian government as evidence that smaller European countries are able to cope in the current economic climate. But Mr Store said the action taken by his government was completely different from Westminster’s £37billion bailout of RBS, HBOS and Lloyds TSB.

He said: ‘We have a financial sector that serves us domestically, with some international outreach. In Scotland, it is different. HBOS and RBS are major institutions with a major international outreach.

‘The Norwegian banks from the outset held a very high standard and the Norwegian government has not bailed out any banks.’"

So the first minister has been misleading the public?

Who would have believed it eh?
74

dude,

wishaw 29/10/2008 22:56:47
139
Rufus T. Firefly,
29/10/2008 22:49:20
135 Dude thats pie in the sky.

Salmond can have as many meetings as he wants with Norwegian Ministers.

He recently had meetings with the power brokers of the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey.

Next stop Andorra.


So you telling me when there was taik of talks with Norway on the interconnector some westminster lackey didnt publicly state that if anyone was going to talk to the Norwegians it would be them and not the Scottish government?
75

Rufus T. Firefly,

29/10/2008 22:57:10
143 Dude, the road ahead to independence?

Is Bing Crosby and Bob Hope in that one?
76

Rufus T. Firefly,

29/10/2008 23:01:10
145 Dude

Have a look at this link. This is what you are talking about.

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/politics/SNP-39slapped-down39-over-.4398743.jp

And check out the bit that says, "However, the Scottish Government last night said they would be pressing ahead with talks in Norway regardless."
77

Decent,

29/10/2008 23:02:27
What is a troll? Am I a troll? I suppose I am I just go looking to wind people up or havr a laugh - better than all this boring cr&p. I'm losing the will to live here.
78

dude,

wishaw 29/10/2008 23:11:01
you must have some database of information, links, new labour lies, what someone said 3 weeks ago etc.

However, the fact that westminster tried to slap the Scottish government down says a lot about new labour lies and spin(lies) party, how can you continue to stick up for this bunch of scallywags
79

dude,

wishaw 29/10/2008 23:12:02
would you support independence if/when the tories are voted in by middle England
80

Rufus T. Firefly,

29/10/2008 23:20:36
150 No.

I would be happy for the tories to get in.
81

dude,

wishaw 29/10/2008 23:33:42
nothing wrong with that i suppose, but if the tories got in that would leave Scotland with a mayor problem, the Tories would not have a mandate to rule if Scotland has a majority SNP, would you support the dissolution of the union and Scottish independence?
82

Rufus T. Firefly,

29/10/2008 23:40:59
153 Not me.

I am anti Independence.

83

dude,

wishaw 29/10/2008 23:44:22
are you anti Scotland?
84

dude,

wishaw 29/10/2008 23:46:21
dont bother you will just lie anyway, if you were pro Scottish you would at least consider the idea that we will make a better job of the Scottish economy then south of England concentric economic policies that are not in Scotlands interest
85

Rufus T. Firefly,

29/10/2008 23:51:31
Of course I am not anti Scotland.

But I do not believe all the drivel that the SNP and its band of merry men constantly come out with.

 

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