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Brown faces terror law defeat amid new deadlock



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Published Date: 15 May 2008
GORDON Brown is facing defeat over his counter-terrorism legislation after ministers and MPs were deadlocked over contentious plans to extend the length of pre-charge detention.
Attempts by MPs, peers and human-rights campaigners to offer alternatives to extending the length of time a terror suspect can be locked up without trial from 28 days to 42 days were rebuffed by ministers yesterday.

With a crunch vote expected in the next few weeks, the Prime Minister remains determined to press ahead with the plan, despite fierce opposition from Labour back-benchers.

An influential committee has suggested a range of amendments to the Counter-Terrorism Bill around which rebels are expected to rally. The joint committee on human rights (JCHR) said the government's proposed system for pre-charge detention was "confused" and "fundamentally flawed".

Ministers have, however, refused to drop the 42-day proposal.

Andrew Dismore, a Labour MP and chairman of the JCHR, said: "

We are astonished, and extremely disappointed, that the government have failed to consider our proposed alternative.

"I will be tabling amendments to give effect to the committee's recommendations and to enable the Commons to consider our alternative package of measures, which would be more effective in protecting the public."

Alternatives suggested by the committee include lowering the charging threshold for terror cases, introducing new offences, allowing intercept evidence in court and imposing surveillance on suspects. Some of these proposals have already been taken forward by ministers.

Privately, ministers believe potential rebels can still be swayed if other compromises are made.

But yesterday, hopes of a consensus being struck over the crucial 42-days issue were dealt a blow when Tony McNulty, the Home Office Minister, insisted there would be no backing down by the government.

He dismissed campaigners' alternative proposals, saying they had no case for dropping the bid to extend detention without charge to 42 days.

He added: "I reject the notion from Liberty (the human-rights campaigners] that somehow, an extension on pre-charge detention is not necessary."

He said the case had not been made that proposals put forward by the JCHR could make up for dropping the 42-day clause.

The minister described suggestions such as bail for terror suspects as "very problematic" and said the use of intercept evidence in court alone would "not be a panacea".

Mr McNulty admitted the lack of agreement meant that the bill had been left "in a state of flux".

Shami Chakrabarti, the director of Liberty,

said: "It is for the government to justify its case when it wants people to be held for longer, not for us to make our case."

She predicted the bill would fall if the government did not change its stance, adding: "To lock people up for longer periods will be counterproductive, in particular, for the government's preventative strategy, which is an important part of Mr Brown's attempt at consensus politics."


The full article contains 490 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 15 May 2008 12:11 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Terrorism in the UK
 
1

Padraig,

15/05/2008 00:21:01
Haven't they been told before by Parliament that they don't need and aren't going to get this extension?

Still, they reckon that they only need to squeeze it through once for it to become Law and this fag-end government is running out of time.

What bothers me is that they WANT to introduce it - just as they wanted to scrap the 10p tax that has caused them so much trouble.

They are just a bunch of control freaks who have no idea at all of what is good for the Country and its hard working families.

Brown should call a General Election before he is sacked so that he can take other useless Labour PMPs with him.

Just don't come back here!
2

Son of Loki,

The Dark Side 15/05/2008 04:05:35
Why do we have to give terror suspects anything? Oh it's the human rights issue thingy .

Why don't the security services try this approach. When you arrest a 'suspect' don't tell us! Keep it to yourselves. If we don't know about it then what can we do?

The only time we show we care about something is when something terrible happens and I personally don't think a terror suspect being held indefinitely is a terrible thing.

The hall needs painting

Stay alive people, it's the only way to live

Loki Jnr
3

Paris Loyal,

Paris 15/05/2008 04:46:07
Hard luck to Rangers tonight

No place else to leave this message.

Hail! Hail!
4

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 15/05/2008 07:09:10
Brown's to blame for Rangers' defeat; him and Wendy both.

Once SNP gets its way our teams will never again lose.
5

Evan Owen,

Snowdonia 15/05/2008 07:13:39
Every piece of legislation these despots pass as compatible with Article 6 is nothing of the sort, the FSMA 2000 is a case in point, the governmnet refused to say whether, or not, they (Gordon Brown) obtained external legal advice before declaring the Bill compatible with the Human Rights Act 1998. The Information Tribunal is currently 'awaiting decision'. It has taken over THREE YEARS to get to this stage!!
6

Evan Owen,

Snowdonia 15/05/2008 07:15:23
Just noticed the photo of Gordon Brown, he should keep his tongue in check lest he look like a chip, or a chump.

On TV last night I saw his hands, what a mess...
7

conservative,

Fife 15/05/2008 07:48:51
Does the view of parliament - our elected representatives - no longer count? Has this country taken another step towards dictatorship? It is long past time for this bullying control-freak know-all and his ragbag party to get out of office.
8

livilion,

livingston 15/05/2008 07:59:28
Only 7 comments on Gordy Broon's troubles?
Things must be bad when rampant apathy is breaking out all over.
9

Douglas,

Bathgate 15/05/2008 08:23:07
#2 Wee Loki: All well and good until you or yours are lifted in the night and 'disappeared'.
It's a slippery slope.
10

livilion,

livingston 15/05/2008 08:38:14
From the report on last night's Uefa cup final in Manchester:

"Before kick-off Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, was booed when he appeared on screen to wish the team good luck. In contrast, Alex Salmond, the First Minister, received loud cheers when his message was broadcast."

When 35,000 'union jack' waving blue noses cheer Alex Salmond and boo the Labour leader, and the hootsmon makes a point of reporting it you gotta know something has gone far wrong for Gordon Brown.
11

interstellarmince,

outer-space 15/05/2008 09:31:06
It is true: Comrade Broon is an alien doppelganger ‘swap-oot’ masquerading as a Manchurian candidate.

Yesterday I watched the ultra-low budget afterthought ‘English Broadcasting's’ Holyrood live on Propaganda 2. Highly entertaining clap-trap from the usual wheeled out cardboard cut-out political commentator clowns. When Scotland becomes independent we need to clear this dross out.

... Watching this slimy jumped-up piece of irrelevance talking layered drivel... who the fcuk is David Cairns? And when did this clown emerge into daylight?

And on Newsnicht what the fcuk was that screeching psychotic SLAB Scotland-hater Curran slabbering about? Apart from her gravy train breaking down? The spit was peppering the studio camera lens. Thank fcuk I wasn’t there with my sense of smell. Who the fcuk voted for the bitter scrawny quisling? They must have rigged the ballot. This SLAB incumbent demonstrates the playground tantrum antics of a primary school child masquerading as political discourse. Whereas Tavish Scott comes across as a seriously devious bit of work. When is the next election?
12

FS,

Stirling 15/05/2008 09:42:59
Good, internment goes against the very nature of supposedly 'democratic' society. However, I doubt they or the next government at WM will be repealing it in any time soon.
13

megz,

Glasgow 15/05/2008 09:47:11
# really PTBS is commenting over at the herald (not that you can commetn much over there these days having a bit of a boycott just now)that salmond got booed.

Given the fact that Brown is pushing ahead with this, and apparenlty the bin tax aswell, shows he is just not listening. Recently experts said there was no reason to reclassify cannabis, now even police are saying they don't need the 42 days so what is the motivation for this?
14

John PM,

15/05/2008 10:21:11
"I personally don't think a terror suspect being held indefinitely is a terrible thing."

Do you want to live in a democracy which respects human rights or a police state which locks up people without evidence indefinitely? Just because this primarily affects people with a different skin tone to you is not an excuse for ignoring their human rights.

Indefinite detention is a sign of deep, deep desperation. If someone is arrested for planning a suspected terrorist offence (and there's a lot of new crimes in this area) then presumably the state should be able to provide some level of evidence for their suspicions.

I suspect your attitude would change if you were ever suspected of a crime and such laws were used against you.

If the Government is allowed to lock people up for a month and a half (and let's remember that sleep deprivation and water torture has been proven to have been used by the US against suspects) without charge then we do not live in a democratic society, it's as simple as that.

Such measures encourage terrorism and hatred of Government they don't help to 'combat' it at all.

In reality the only way to stop people attacking our citizens is for the Government to address the political questions which underly them.

IE why do people become so politically desperate as to want to murder people in Britain and what is Britain doing in their countries to cause this 'blowback'?
15

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 15/05/2008 10:38:32
#2 "I personally don't think a terror suspect being held indefinitely is a terrible thing"

In this country, despite New Labour's best efforts, a person is still innocent until proven guilty. "Terror suspect" = "ordinary member of the public like you and me". In such a way do fascist states arise.
16

Boggle fey the Bog,

15/05/2008 10:46:52
11 interstellarmince,outer-space 15/05/2008 09:31:06

Efter last nights Booing he certainly is nae a Mancunian Candidate ;-)

Is anyone really surprised? Broon listens, only to what he wants to hear. He doesn't do 'Government by consensuses', he's a Thatcherite at heart, after all.

Further. in a new attack on the disabled, Broon, yesterday announced a new and radical 'welfare bill'.

This even before his last 'New and Radical Welfare Bill' comes into effect, What is it with this cowboy?
Attack only those who have limited means to fight back? The poor, the elderly, the disabled? Who is going to be next?

The 'irony' of it is, the people (Unum Provident Centre for Psychosocial and Disability Research based at Cardiff university.) that have been instrumental in coordinating the attack on the disabled, are carrying out an investigation into 'Presenteeism', that is where people who are to ill to work continually turn up for work and do excessive hours, apparently this is costing us more than all the sick and disabled put together.

It’s Director, Professor Mansel Aylward, is the former chief scientist at the DWP who moved to the Unum Provident bankrolled centre several years ago.

The centre has been one of the leading forces in trying to make it harder for people to be signed off sick by their GPs.

Staff from Unum were also prominent in the design of the current PCA and also the new, much harsher WCA.

"According to Professor Aylward presenteeism costs the country ten times more than sickness absence.

The learned Professor, who has spent many years telling people that the best cure for illness is work, now claims that:

“The problems come from people who are ill, those who are not up to the mark, who are continuing to work.”

Presumably there is no possibility that the reason why people are chained to their desks till they drop is that their GP has been persuaded by DWP funded research that being signed off sick is bad for their patient
17

Boggle fey the Bog,

15/05/2008 10:47:52
Cont; from 16

Presumably there is no possibility that the reason why people are chained to their desks till they drop is that their GP has been persuaded by DWP funded research that being signed off sick is bad for their patients' health."

Professor Aylward is, in addition, involved in research for the DWP and for Dame Carol Black, proponent of the replacement of sick-notes with 'well-notes'.

So be prepared for even more trash from this totally inept, morally and politically bankrupt individual and his gang of thugs.
18

megz,

glasgow 15/05/2008 10:54:09
i noticed that the government are going ahead with their bin tax, why not just encourage people to recycle more? I live in east renfrewshire and we have 5 different ways of disposing of rubbish. My weekly amount of refuse has been greatly reduced thanks to this.
19

AJ Fife,

15/05/2008 10:54:35
Broon has the look of a condemned man. He's finished as a PM and finished as a viable human being!

20

megz,

glasgow 15/05/2008 11:41:10
# 19 in the times the picture of brown makes him look evil/malevolent

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3936770.ece
21

AJ Fife,

15/05/2008 11:49:19
megz,

He certainly does! He'd give Boris Karloff the heebeejeebies!:D

On another note,

How can Broon defend his promotion of 'Britishness' after the self proclaimed Unionist supporters of Glasgow Rangers FC, rampaged through the streets of Manchester???? His idea of Britain lies in tatters this morning.

In a perverse way, the violent Ibrox hordes may have helped us towards full independence
22

megz,

Glasgow 15/05/2008 12:00:46
As a celtic fan it would be easy to gloat and point fingers, but given the tragic news today of Tommy Burns death it makes you realise that there are more important things in life than mere football rivalry.

They did themselves, their fellow fans, their club and their country a great diservice by behaving in the way they did. I know the pain of being defeated when coming so close to winning and i sypathise with decent fans that love their club.

When i think of britishness it is exactly that sort of negative image i see. I don't know about anyone else but to me it makes me think of union jack boxers, shaved heads, bull dogs and to a certain extent a degree of racism.
23

Phil C,

15/05/2008 12:14:58
Terrorism is too randomly murderous to be treated lightly as just another naughty thing to do! The people involved are off their heads on propaganda, if nothing else. Usually there's money and international dealings behind these groups. It takes a long time to gather evidence in these cases. For these reasons I think that Daft Gordy is partly correct here. If there is reasonable evidence, these people cannot be put back on the streets.
24

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

15/05/2008 14:06:06
It's a pity the terrorists didn't the public's human rights when they plant their bombs . . .
25

livilion,

livingston 15/05/2008 14:06:32
24 7 Zark 7
I think Jambo Salmond just did this lunchtime on FMQs at Holyrood.

How many of these 'fans' were from Glasgow? from what we saw there were 200,000 in Manchester from every part of the football globe.

These, as you put it, idiots, are these the ones who'll proudly turn up to matches in Govan wearing England replica shirts born under a Union flag?
26

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

15/05/2008 14:06:34
#25 Oops - It's a pity the terrorists didn't remember the public's human rights when they plant their bombs . . .
27

AJ Fife,

15/05/2008 14:17:58
Well said livilion,

Luckily, we can easily ring fence the section of Rangers support who are responsible for this latest shameful episode. The Union Flag waving sectarian element are always very visible and we should isolate them as being anti-Scots.

We must make it clear to our European and English neighbours, that these people have little in common with the true and decent Scottish general public.
28

livilion,

livingston 15/05/2008 14:19:19
27 The Federalist
Aye but just don't look foreign, carrying a rucksack and getting on a train, or down the pub with an odd accent and carrying an old table leg in your shoppimg bag.

The law is there to protect you and me in case some trigger happy policeman thinks: better safe than sorry.

We only hear about the fatalities, hardly ever about the innocent victims locked up for weeks just in case they might've been terrorists.

Remember what internment in N.Ireland did for IRA recruitment back in the 70s and 80s?
29

kimba,

15/05/2008 14:32:10
21.Do you have proof these yobs were "Rangers" supporters,they could easily have been celtic supporters that infiltrated the rangers line
30

AJ Fife,

15/05/2008 14:56:09
kimba,#30,

With a keen mind like yours, surely a career in MI5 or Special Branch is on the cards??
31

kimba,

15/05/2008 15:16:08
31. And with a vile mouth like yours,there's a vacancy you can fill in the gents loos
32

Realciderman,

England 15/05/2008 15:37:06
What a lot of the reactionary rightwingers commenting on here do'nt realise is that these draconian powers of detainment without arrest are not just for use on so called alleged terrorists . These powers can be used on anyone who attends a demo or march , one day it could be you in the cells maybe for just attending a meeting calling for devolution ! Just because these people tend to fit your prejudice you are willing to bypass freedom to a fair trial !
33

Guthrie,

Edinburgh 15/05/2008 15:45:35
Regarding poster #2, the clue is in the name...

34

Cuthulan,

approx.12,000miles from Earth's core 15/05/2008 16:04:13
#33 Realciderman
I totally agree.
The government always says
"These powers will only be used on terrorists"
BUT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_Act_2000
Definition of Terrorism
Section 1. -
(1) In this Act "terrorism" means the use or threat of action where-
(a) the action falls within subsection (2),
(b) the use or threat is designed to influence the government [or an international governmental organisation][1] or to intimidate the public or a section of the public, and
(c) the use or threat is made for the purpose of advancing a political, religious or ideological cause.
(2) Action falls within this subsection if it-
(a) involves serious violence against a person,
(b) involves serious damage to property,
(c) endangers a person's life, other than that of the person committing the action,
(d) creates a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a section of the public, or
(e)is designed seriously to interfere with or seriously to disrupt an electronic system.
(3) The use or threat of action falling within subsection (2) which involves the use of firearms or explosives is terrorism whether or not subsection (1)(b) is satisfied.

Pretty vague guide lines really ,I think you will find that YOU will fall under one of these sections one day.
We all remember Walter Wolfgang http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Wolfgang
,arrested under the Terrorism Act 2000. Along with HUNDREDS of other Peace demontrators ,at the Labour Party conference 2005. Surely there could not have been that many Terrorsist showing up for a Labour party conference! If Labour does attract that many terrorist maybe we should shut it down as a terrorist organisation?
Even with all these new terror powers ,I do not see a lot of terrorists getting arrested, only innocent civilians so far.
LIVE FREE AND DO NOT FEAR SHADOWS
35

kimba,

15/05/2008 16:13:30
You can't protect the public 24/7,if these guys are fanatical they'll get through,all we the public can do is go about our daily lives as normal,we must show these low lives we will not be intimidated.
36

AJ Fife,

15/05/2008 16:21:36
kimba,

That's not very nice now is it??

After the horrific Magic Hoops affair, perhaps you should keep quiet!
37

kimba,

15/05/2008 16:51:59
37. After the "magic hoops affair" as you put it,made me even more determind to speak out against you nats!
38

Black Beard,

15/05/2008 17:18:44
I wonder if I can get a Scotsman photographer for our next family reunion. They always seem to capture people 'in the moment'
39

Andrew Allan,

15/05/2008 17:20:32
At the very least Brown must now say that this policy has to be put aside until proof to justify a change in law can be provided.
40

Awake,

Scotland 15/05/2008 17:53:34
42 Days detention? That's internment. Compare to 8 hours in France.

They claim they have partial ‘evidence’ and ‘intelligence’ on all these so called 'terrorists', with their ‘kitchen products’ bombs? If their bombs are so good why doesn’t the MoD use them and stop spending millions on SoTA arms manufacture? They constructed one of these so-called home made bombs in tests on TV and it took them over 30 attempts to detonate it. The resultant explosion was less than a fireworks banger rocket. It’s all tosh! Why don't they lift them and charge them? Or is it that speaking out and exercising your right to free speech is now an offence? We now have the NeoCons and ADL condemning anything that doesn’t promote the terrorist state Israel for example? They want to issue all police in the ‘UK’ with tazers? It’s all complete unadulterated drivel. Everyone should be very concerned about these Third Reich ‘Enabling Act’ laws. Once these laws are in place then the goalposts will shift in regards their catchment demographic. You will find that the Tavistock Institute isn't far behind. 42 days is a long time to persuade someone of something. What’s next? Railway carriages with shackles? Open concentration camps? ‘They’ are the very same people behind all the ‘incidents’ as overwhelming evidence now indicates… They’ve created the havoc by their own hand. Connect the dots.
41

Vote UKIP in the 2009 EU elections!,

15/05/2008 18:14:12
Gordon's party is national socialist!

'Britishness' = nationalistic
Labour = Socialist

Nazis!

42 days' detention, Civil Contigencies Act, Hitler's Enabling Act...
42

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

15/05/2008 20:41:34
#42 Someone who supports the UKIP has cheek calling anyone a nazi - your party has as about as many nazis as the BNP.
43

Vote UKIP in the 2009 EU elections!,

15/05/2008 21:25:46
#43 Are you suggesting that Rusty Lee is a racist Nazi?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3811841.stm

Only an idiot commie troll can describe UKIP as being national socialist. Go back to NuLabour HQ and tell them you've been rumbled!

BTW, I'm half ethnic.
44

snoozyowl,

Wales 15/05/2008 22:58:09
I seem to remember that the police do not want 42 days detention. Nor does anyone else except the power crazed Labour grandees and (by definition) the hopeless Ms Smith. Hopefully they will get the message on this and move on to another of their ridiculous ideas. At that point I suggest that Gordon Brown is returned by the electorate to his home base where he can do whatever he did before he started plaguing the English and Welsh. There must be lots for a Labour politician to do in Scotland.
45

haggis 10,

16/05/2008 00:08:46
Open more detention centres (CONCENTRATION CAMPS) Indefinite Detention extortion of information by any means possible to increase proof of terrorist information the use of drugs ie LSD as used in Northern Ireland to great effect!Scour Second world war Nazi Concentration Camp Archives for guidance in Information Retrieval Methodology This all adds up to one thing Fascism in the UK government Not surprising since it WAS the English who invented the idea in the Great Boer War .How far must we go for the aquisition of oil, any length it would appear !!!!!!!!
46

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 16/05/2008 00:09:32
And the good Lord visited Gordon and said unto him,

"It's ok, pal, a policeman being tripped and trampled by a minority is fine. Though shalt let the minorities trip and trample over you."

And lo and behold, did Gordon not just say that on TV today?
47

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 16/05/2008 00:14:11
And the good Lord visited Gordon and said unto him,

"It's ok, pal, a policeman being tripped and trampled by a minority is fine. Thou shalt let the minorities trip and trample over you."

And lo and behold, did Gordon not just say that on TV today?

Took away the gh
48

Tobe ornot,

Canada 16/05/2008 06:57:25
Doesn't matter what the Government proposes you will find something negative. Everybody was happy when you got your 200 pounds heating allowance and free T.V. for over 75's- that's not enough anymore you want 300 -same old story. The more you get the more you want. Pensionsers have never been better off. Never satisfied. On the detention issue - what if the Glasgow airport bomber had survived - let him go his own way and not bother detaining him. If your family was involved your thoughts would be a lot different. The majority of you write a load of rubbish - I sometimes wonder why I even bother to read it. Further don't believe everything you read in the papers!!!
49

Evan Owen,

Snowdonia 23/05/2008 20:24:07
http://www.informationtribunal.gov.uk/Documents/decisions/HMTreasuryDecisionEA20070054website_15508.pdf

 

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