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Brown: Scotland to get more tax powers

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Gordon Brown addresses the Scottish CBI
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Published Date: 05 September 2008
GORDON Brown, the Prime Minister, completed a remarkable U-turn last night when he signalled his willingness to allow the Scottish Parliament to set its own taxes.
He used a key speech to Scottish business leaders to say Holyrood should be given the power to raise money as well as spend it, in order to make it more accountable for its budget.

At the moment, Holyrood gets all its funding from Westminster – and Mr Brown said this was a "problem". With it due to receive £30 billion a year by 2010, Mr Brown said a "critical part" of Sir Kenneth Calman's review of the way Scotland is governed would be to tackle what he regards as Holyrood's lack of accountability for its spending.

Addressing a meeting of CBI Scotland in Glasgow, the Prime Minister also made clear his annoyance that the funding was provided regardless of the effectiveness of the ruling administration in running a strong economy.

He said that while he was "not going to prejudge" the Calman Commission's work, he saw "one problem" with devolution. "The Scottish Parliament is wholly accountable for the budget it spends, but not for the size of its budget. And that budget is not linked to the success of the Scottish economy.

"That is why we asked the Calman Commission to look carefully at the financial accountability of the Scottish Parliament. And this is a critical part of Calman's remit."

While the Scotland Act allows Holyrood to vary income tax by up to 3p in the pound, the so-called "tartan tax" has never been used, because any party imposing a higher rate north of the Border would be sure to face the consequences at the ballot box.

Since the SNP came to power in the Scottish elections in May last year, the Westminster government has become increasingly angry at having to take the flak for collecting taxes – then seeing the Nationalists spend them on populist schemes.

This has left Labour without any credit for managing the economy – thereby providing the funds – and has fuelled the perception in England that Scotland is being subsidised by the rest of the UK. The SNP has also been able to blame London for providing insufficient cash if it finds itself unable to pay for all its proposals.

The SNP said Mr Brown was now "singing a different tune" in the wake of Nationalist gains at Holyrood and Westminster.

A spokesman for Alex Salmond, the First Minister, said: "Only last year, Gordon Brown was rejecting all calls for any increase in the powers and responsibilities of the Scottish Parliament. Since then, we have had SNP success in the Scottish Parliament election and in Glasgow East, and now Gordon Brown is singing a very different tune.

"The more economic and financial responsibilities we have, the better Scotland can do – it is essential that we have the ability to grow the economy, and that means real fiscal autonomy, not just assigned revenues."

Tavish Scott, the new leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, said he wanted the Prime Minister to talk "the language of home rule". He told The Scotsman: "If he has woken up to the demands for greater tax powers, then that is progress. I want the Calman Commission to be radical, and the test of Brown will be whether he tries to water it down or whether he is prepared to implement real and lasting changes."

The Prime Minister used his speech to deliver a full-frontal attack on the SNP, accusing it of having a "bleak, separatist obsession" and of being guilty of "self-indulgent posturing".

He said the "simple arithmetic" of the Union with England resulted in the Scottish financial services sector alone generating more money than the rest of the Scottish economy did with the European Union.

The Prime Minister also ruled out cash handouts to families struggling with soaring energy bills. It was thought ministers would unveil plans for handouts of up to £100, following talks with energy companies.

But government sources last night said ministers would now focus on long-term proposals including support for energy efficiency measures.

Mr Brown said there would be no "short-term gimmicks or giveaways". Ministers were "working up proposals" with utility companies but these would be focused on reducing bills in the long term.

David Thorburn, the CBI Scotland chairman, urged the Prime Minister not to impose a windfall tax on energy firms.

Mr Brown, who spoke of a desire to "free Britain from the dictatorship of oil" provided by foreign nations, said the national demand for oil would reduce by 20 per cent by 2020 as a result of energy-saving policies.

But he committed the government to extracting as much oil as possible from the North Sea and announced that a 139-turbine wind farm off the Cumbrian coast had been approved.

A relaxed Mr Brown joked with the audience of more than 800 guests at the Glasgow Hilton, before going into the meat of his speech, that he believed Churchill's maxim that "politicians usually got it right after trying everything else". He then stuck to his prepared text but won only brief applause.

MORE COVERAGE

TAX: Clegg clears way for Liberal Democrats to do deal with SNP on local income tax

INDEPENDENCE: Hoy attacks politicians just as Brown holds him up as best of British

ECONOMY: Bank holds interest rates amid fears of recession

OPINION: Salmond takes gamble on 'middle Scotland'

The late Donald Dewar, Scotland's first First Minister, with the Queen at the opening of the Scottish Parliament on 1 July, 1999
The late Donald Dewar, Scotland's first First Minister, with the Queen at the opening of the Scottish Parliament on 1 July, 1999


Two possible paths forward, but both could be fraught with difficulties

THERE are two ways in which the Scottish Parliament can have more responsibility for the money it spends – transferring tax powers and assigning tax revenues.

Transferring tax powers is the most controversial but seen by many as the best way of giving the parliament more power over the Scottish economy.

Earlier this week, the Borders housebuilder Tweed Homes called for stamp duty to be devolved.

Other taxes which could be devolved are inheritance tax, VAT and excise duty, although these come with particular problems which would be difficult to resolve.

There have been repeated calls for corporation tax to be devolved, giving the Scottish Government the chance to lower business taxes and attract more companies to Scotland, but it is not clear whether the European Union would allow this because it opposes differential business tax rates within the same member state.

It would be much easier for tax revenues to be assigned.

At the moment, the Scottish Government gets a block grant, a set amount which does not go up or down depending on the Scottish tax take.

If, however, it was assigned all Scottish tax revenues, it could grow its budget by improving the tax take, providing a clear incentive for it to grow the economy.

The danger for unionists is that, with every tax that is assigned, so demands would grow for the economic levers to be transferred and with every tax power devolved, the demands for more would follow, until independence was all but achieved.

Mixed reception for Brown's remarks

Peter McMahon


GORDON Brown's speech outlining the government's strategy to cope with the economic downturn and his hint that he supported greater financial powers for the Scottish Parliament won a mixed reaction from guests at the CBI dinner last night.

Owen Kelly, the chief executive of Scottish Financial Enterprise, said: "I warmly welcome the Prime Minister's commitment to free competition and fair markets.

"I also think his comments on globalisation have particular relevance for the Scottish financial services industry."

Mr Kelly said that any reforms of devolution should be judged by whether they "enhanced international competitiveness" and did nothing to diminish Scotland's leading rule in the financial services industry.

Andrew McNamara, a partner in BDO Stoy Hayward, a firm of chartered accountants based in Glasgow, said: "I am not convinced the Prime Minister knows how to get the economy out of the state it is in. He made all the right noises on issues like renewable energy, but really the speech went around the edges of the issues."

Mr McNamara welcomed the idea of more financial responsibility being given to MSPs, saying: "It is essential that they are given greater fiscal authority provided they use it wisely and not to the detriment of Scotland's economy as a whole."

Allan Hogarth, a spokesman for the Scottish North American Business Council, said the UK government should do more to make sure renewable technology was developed here and not abroad. He added: "The Prime Minister did not quite explain what his position was in terms of freeing up the economy."

Mr Hogarth said that most business people would support making the Scottish Parliament more accountable for raising the money it spends.

"Business people would welcome the increased rigour that would be required from 129 MSPs if they had to consider how to raise the money they spent as well as just spending it," he said.

Former home secretary's warning

THE Prime Minister's leadership was called into further question yesterday when former home secretary Charles Clarke warned that he had just months to prove himself or he would have to quit.

Mr Clarke said there was a "deep concern" within the party that the government was heading for disaster.

He later said: "There are two essential possibilities. The first is for the performance of the government to improve significantly ... or the second is for Gordon Brown to stand down with honour."


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 05 September 2008 1:35 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Labour Party , Devolution
 
1

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 05/09/2008 00:02:40

Bean the indicisive at his finest.

You could not make this up, how many U-turns now ?

He is just terrified he loses yet another by-election.

Sorry Bean this will not save you.
2

Vivas,

Edinburgh 05/09/2008 00:06:07
At last I agree with Toom Tabbard, plainly Scotlands budget should be linked to it's economic success. As a major oil-producer, our budget and national expenditure should reflect that. Will he now be crossing the floor to join the SNP ?

3

Guga II,

Rockall 05/09/2008 00:08:07
#1. Never mind he'll be headed round the U-bend very shortly.
4

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 05/09/2008 00:14:30
Guga, I'm betting he will be history by Xmas.
5

Alan Reid,

NZ 05/09/2008 00:14:45
"Since the SNP came to power in the Scottish elections in May last year, the Westminster government has become increasingly angry at having to take the flak for collecting taxes – then seeing the Nationalists spend them on populist schemes"

Yes, HOW dare the Scottish Goverment spend money that Scotland raised in the first place, on things that makes life a little better for the people of Scotland?

Brown is a sc@mbag.
6

subrosa,

05/09/2008 00:20:55
Have to agree with an observer on another forum - he's definitely dyeing his hair. Not that it makes any difference ...
7

,

05/09/2008 00:27:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
8

Shamus,

Glasgow 05/09/2008 00:39:04
Quite clever to give tax raising powers. The SNP WILL NOW HAVE ADDITIONAL TAX RAISING POWERS. No more additional grants from Westminster. Keeps the English happy. So who will the SNP tax.
9

Senga Jean,

05/09/2008 00:57:41
Broon has a bleak Onionist obsession. GET REAL.. SCOTLAND IS NOT A PLAYTHING. IT IS NOT JUST FOR CHRISTMAS!
10

somerferg,

perth 05/09/2008 01:15:33

#9 - don't make me laugh - grants from Wasteminster. How's about this for an idea. Stop Scotland subsidising the great unwashed of the south east and there will be more than enough money for the total rejuvenation of Scotland. This is more of the usual 'lets make the Scots think we are doing them a big favour routine" that we have been hearing for some 300 hundred years - its known as 'crumbs from the master's table'. We are better than that.
11

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 05/09/2008 01:15:40
Presumably that also means collecting, regulating and retaining royalty revenues from Scotland's natural resources.
Anything less than that makes Broon's alleged "U-turn" a complete and cynical hoax.
What a pathetic waste of skin.
12

Kimg Arthur,

05/09/2008 01:28:42
Interesting conclusion he is drawing us all towards.....that Scotland is best served by looking after herself. Perhaps this is reverse psychology though? If Brown thinks this as well, does that mean that the right thinking majority of you Scots that want this as well are all wrong???!!!! :)
13

Alan Reid,

NZ 05/09/2008 02:23:51
Shamus,Glasgow, For your imformation:
I know it's an old post, but it is relevant is it not?


The UK government has known for more than 30 years that Scotland does support itself financially. For example, Professor Gavin McCrone, Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, advised the UK government in 1975 of the truth about Scotland’s finances. As Chief Economic Adviser to the Secretary of State for Scotland, he prepared a report, “The Economics of Nationalism Re-examined”. His report advised the UK government that an independent Scotland would have a massive budget surplus. It was promptly classified "Secret" and suppressed. It came to light only in 2005, when the UK government was forced by law to release it. The UK government’s ‘Government Expenditure and Revenue in Scotland (GERS) report provides another example of the UK government’s duplicity. This was finally exposed by forensic accountant Niall Aslen's analysis of the 2005 GERS report. The analysis (available at http://tinyurl.com/y p7osx) was based entirely on the UK government’s own figures, with one exception for which UK government figures were not available. Mr Aslen documented the sources of all the figures. Mr Aslen's analysis exposed the UK government’s egregious misallocation – to Scotland’s serious disadvantage – of revenues (not just oil revenues) and costs.
14

Alan Reid,

NZ 05/09/2008 02:25:21
P2

Mr Aslen's analysis exposed the UK government’s egregious misallocation – to Scotland’s serious disadvantage – of revenues (not just oil revenues) and costs.

If a private firm cooked its books half as seriously as the UK government's GERS report, its directors would be in jail.

Mr Aslen's analysis convincingly demolished the assertions that Scotland was being subsidised by the rest of the UK. But the British press ignored or suppressed it. Luckily, enough people saw it on the internet before the 2007 election to discredit Labour’s claims that Scotland was running a £11.2-billion deficit. Mr Aslen’s analysis showed that Scotland actually had a £9.6-billion surplus.
15

Statsman,

Edinburgh 05/09/2008 02:59:04
19 bring them on

Spot the Labour Party activist drone.

Try thinking for yourself.
16

Goat Laybah,

This Week It's Vienna dumdeedumdeedum 05/09/2008 03:31:07
None of the ramblings of Broon matter, he will be gone shortly and he will be followed by the rest of Laybah in the next General Election. In Scotland Laybah will be reemed out of in both the Holyrood and council elections. Independence is now unstoppable

Brown should paraphrase another arrogant failure, Baron Steel of Aikwood:

"Go back to your constituencies and prepare for political obscurity ."
17

donald,

glasgow 05/09/2008 03:46:42
Yes Full and INDEPENDENT Tax raising powers.
18

donald,

glasgow 05/09/2008 03:46:43
Yes Full and INDEPENDENT Tax raising powers.
19

Pilrig.,

Livingston 05/09/2008 05:48:06
27 -"Never done a hard days work in my life" etc. posters ?

Broon, like his cabinet acolytes has never had a real job in his life - he went to university, became involved in student politics, and then onto the Labour party political machine - bypassing normal work in the process.
20

Nevsky,

Moscow 05/09/2008 06:20:22
27:

The same unionist whinge that was spouted before devolution; country would be ruined, companies would leave etc etc etc..yawn yawn
Who do you hold responsible for the state the country is in at the moment just out of interest?
21

Nevsky,

Moscow 05/09/2008 07:40:39

35:

Not sure what you are talking about. I have never been to Benidorm in my life neither have i ever taken anything from the state.

If you are so concerned with this problem in Scotland why not try (along with 36) and do something about it.

Guess it's easier to whine and moan and blame others though.

22

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 05/09/2008 07:45:59
An Open Letter to PM Gordon Brown:

Banks have the unique privilege of creating money "out of thin air" and are not concerned whether it's spent wisely or wasted - to long as the interest gets paid on the nail. We, the people, should ask the Scotish Government to investigate this as it's something Westminster will never do. The idea of money standing proxy for real goods and services exchanged should be most useful and and an improvement on barter-methods. I think it should be the Scottish Government's job to issue and regulate the Scottish Currency to keep it this way. (This is a minority opinion.)

Gordon woke up this morning "with a desire to free Britain from the dictatorship of oil"

(it's called the wishful thinking blues and is there a cure for it?)

Well yes. The pioneers arose in the United States, naively believing that the Constitution was not merely "a piece of paper" and that free thinking was encouraged (and even funded). The likes of Nikola Tesla, Buckminster Fuller, Adam Trombly had vision! Then used their analytical training and local craft skills to build and demonstrate technology that works. It may be that Independent Nations rather than military run superpowers are the ones to advance this.

Scots have invested £42M in informatics, robotics and bionics (all singing an' dancing to the Undertone's song-book). I'm sure we could find another 42 to purpose-build a facility in a breathtaking scenic location (well it works for nuclear submarines) to prove (to the world) pollution-free power from zero point vacuum fluctuation.

See! Scottish Independence would be the best thing yet to happen to England and all their world cup Olympic asperations.
23

davydee,

Edinburgh 05/09/2008 07:47:56
Watched newnight last night with the 3 stooges 1 of whom could be the next labour leader well if thats the best Labour can do SNP should not worry heard the same old rhetoric about trying to connect with the people again and we need to learn lessons on why we are unpopular the reason you are unpopular is because of your stupid policies the corruption at Local&National level and the tthey ill never return like the tories at the next election Labour will be pushed into third place and the new lABOUR DREAM WILL BE OVER
24

Jambo Dave,

Edinburgh 05/09/2008 07:57:55
This is why you should SNP. I t was the same 20 years ago,a strong SNP and they are forced to give you more crumbs sometimes even a crust.Its the only way to get our proper share.Vote SNP whether you agree about all there agendas,if you live in Scotland and you want a fare share do the sane thing and vote the Scotish party.
25

Cam3,

05/09/2008 08:16:34
Unbelievable. I've never actually witnessed such incompetence in a govt. They change their pants at least three times a day - and why not? - as Labour seem to base every 'decision' on changing strategies to TRY and beat the SNP.

Now. Theory time. Remember Brown's comment on the Calman stitch-up? Devolution is a 'two way process'? The unionist meeting of SMP and MPs in London?

I reckon Chairman Bean will press, as he know's hes going to, for a stripping of planning powers for Edinburgh - i.e. decisions on renewables and NUCLEAR - and use this wee move to suggest it has to be give and take...

...when in fact it's about stripping this SNP govt. of powers the Labour party simply never anticipated they would have.

Brown should move his cabinet to St.Petersburg and be done with it.

SEE THROUGH IT SCOTLAND!
26

Cam3,

05/09/2008 08:17:45
By way of a question? How can the Calman stitch-up be sold like this to the Scottish people when the govt. THEY ELECTED are NOT invited?

It's like having a TV debate and basically asking one of the four chairs to be quiet for the 'discussion'.

HOW is this possible?
27

thinking,

Scotland 05/09/2008 08:17:59
#12
In what way is Scotland subsidising the south of England? Having family down there I know they pay more in council tax than here for starters.
#17
Perhaps Scotland could go it alone financially, except, MSPs don't seem to do so well as they need two or three times as many of them to do the same job and that means more costs thus wiping out any financial advantage
28

terry osser,

morden 05/09/2008 08:19:37
i want scots irish and welsh to have full independence. then we can have english constituency MPs in westminster only
29

Nevsky,

Moscow 05/09/2008 08:24:59
48:

Why wait for us to do it? Vote for it in England instead of moaning to us about it.
30

jtdx,

05/09/2008 08:25:16
Its Shetlands oil that subsidises Scotland and the rest of the UK. Think how much richer everyone in Shetland would be if the got rid of the lot of you!
31

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 08:26:12
What has Brown conceded here exactly?

Are we talking about the retention of part of the taxes we raise in Scotland now being the responsibility of Holyrood (in which case we gain nothing except money which was ours anyway)
or

are we talking about additional tax raising powers which already exist at 3% according to the existing arrangements,in which case we are being taxed more when we are already being conned out of 400 million in council tax rebate which has mysteriously become a separate item from the block grant when it was clearly itemised in previous years, but has mysteriously become a total only, thus facilitating this disingenuous claim.

42

Salmond is an economist.

He has more than a clue.You however declare your own stupidity with that remark!
32

Nevsky,

Moscow 05/09/2008 08:29:59
jtdx:

Whalsay should declare independence and get rid of shetland, think how rich they would be!
33

cabrach loon,

inverness 05/09/2008 08:34:42
par for the course - Westminster will squander the oil as fast as they can have it pumped to pay for broons wasteful spending, unaffordable wars that are of no interest to the country, northern rock, the NHS computer gift to the consultants etc. Woe to Scotland!
34

Skatedad,

05/09/2008 08:40:43
We are all DOOMED!!!
35

eric,

lothian 05/09/2008 08:42:02
Save the Union !In a couple of months hahaha,Hilarious,
The English Voters will loath him for that remark.
36

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 08:42:31
50

Shetland is a part of Scotland and given by Norway as a marriage dowry.She is not a country and would not be recognised as anything other than part of Scotland by the international community,

International aggreements exist as to what is and is not recognised as a country.Shetland would have to negotiate any seperation from Scotland with a Scottsh government which had the power to do so. That would require Scottish independence as a pre requisite as far as I can determine.

Shetland could find herself seriously disadvantaged since even if she could become a separate nation she would have no right to any services provided by the Scottish taxpayers.That would mean she either provided her own, or deal with England or Norway, who have no intention of ever claiming what is legally SCOTLAND.
Scotland would become a separate country so no air ambulance or hospital services, sea rescue etc.
Perhaps if you realised the oil belongs to the nation whose territorial water it lies in, it would help.
The oil is Norwegian or Scottish. It belongs to Westminster as long as Scotland's parliament remains in part at Westminster.

Why the blazes would you want to harm Scotland anyway?
You live here (well I presume you do anyway, although you are clearly not all here)
37

Nevsky,

Moscow 05/09/2008 08:44:28
43 bring them on:

You clearly consider yourself as someone who knows more about Scotland, the economy and government than Alex Salmond.

I suggest you stand for a political party and then make a pitch for First Minister.
38

Nevsky,

Moscow 05/09/2008 08:47:33
57:bring them on

Yes to see 1 comment that could be described as intellectual from you unless you consider saying Alex salmoond has no idea what he is talking about as an intellectual contribution.

Not exactly Marx or Engels or Smith or Hobbes are you?
39

Jock Politicaljunkie,

Glasgow 05/09/2008 08:48:55


Rearrange the following words into a well known phrase:

"TO" "A" "DANCING" "JIG" "SCOTTISH"









40

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 08:50:24
53

You asked Do you think he knows what he is talking about?If you did not want answers why did you ask?


According to opinion polls quite a lot do, and if being an economist is not a good start then pray tell us what qualifies you?

I'm sure a man of your debating skills and eloquence can provide us with excellence.
41

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 05/09/2008 08:52:12
The PM may have promised the Scottish Parliament knew devolved tax raising powers to please some English voters but it is highly unlikely that his party will win the next UK General Election to carry this out.

Whatever party wins the next UK General Election, it must introduce more financial accountability at Holyrood.

IF, the Conservative Party does win the next UK General Election it is to be hoped it does not foolishly attempt to turn the Devolution clock back or there can only be one inevitable outcome!
42

Linda,

Edinburgh 05/09/2008 08:58:59
Suggest Brown spells out exactly what powers and finances he will allow Scottish Parliament to have then put it to the voters of Glenrothes.
43

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 09:01:18
69

I think he intends to do this the other way round..The voters of Glenrothes go out and vote New Liar again and find out what they voted for afterwards.

44

The Strategist,

05/09/2008 09:02:42
I fail to understand Brown's sycophantic attitude towards the financial services sector. After all, it was those numpties that got us into this mess in the first place.

We must stop treating the banks and others with respect.
45

Nevsky,

Moscow 05/09/2008 09:02:56
68: Bring them On;

All just waiting for you to outline for us your view for the future of Scotland.

All you have said so far is..mmmm...nothing other than a weak attempt at having a go at nationalists and making dumb and spurious claims.

46

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 09:03:52
68

They are not insulting you.
They are paying you a compliment!
47

,

05/09/2008 09:04:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
48

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 09:11:47
74
Whilst I sympathise with your feelings,it should be born in mind that when you devolve a given area to Wales and/or Scotland and so on you automatically devolve that same power to England since that's what Westminster is left with.
I agree that Scottish and Welsh MPs should not vote on these matters which concern England only.You will have to take that up with Unionist Labour etc.

The perfect solution is indeed giving England her own parliament. There's one at Westminster which would be ideal for the purpose and the Scots can all return to Edinburgh.REST ASSURED we will co operate 100% in this matter!
49

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 09:13:34
75

I fully intend to and the opinion polls say Im doing a lousy job of damaging the SNP.

You are doing an excellent job of damaging the Union though and I must congratulate you on this.WELL DONE SIR!
50

bluehead,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 09:14:20
Hoy is quite right,politicians are always ready to jump on some one's bandwagon,when they have done well, at one thing or another,
they are a sleazy bunch at the best of times,and there is no words to describe them at worst of times,!the labour lot that are in power are a grand example,of what people should not have for a goverment,it is horrifying to think such people are in charge of a country,it's a wonder people can sleep at night,brown and his mob are just a nightmare.
51

rab rats,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 09:21:31
#53
Bring them on

Are you saying your Mothers a bit dim

Not only do you take the pizz out of your Mother,
you take the pizz out of our Mother.
52

MoClana,

05/09/2008 09:23:14
#bring them on - yuo have been posting this Labour nonsense for hours now......

Why dont you go lie down before all that spin and balls your talking makes you sick.

Give us peace, Scotland is passed all the lies and fear.

Soar Alba
53

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 09:27:06
80


You can ask .
I have no intention of answering though,but its for a quite different reason to the one you are about to claim.
54

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 09:32:59
85 What were you saying about debating skills again?

Ive forgotten and so has everybody else .You have still not answered my question which is what qualifies you to cast doubts on an economist?

Is the answer so embarrassing?
Now you know why I did not answer your question.
55

subrosa,

05/09/2008 09:34:35
The 'Scotland should have more tax powers' comment was just hot air. Nothing will come of it. The excuse will be that the Calman Commission didn't agree and after all, as he said, he can't usurp the Calman Commission's findings.

It was a ploy to grab headlines as there was nothing of substance in his speech.

Don't forget there's a by-election before the end of the year.
56

Alan B,

05/09/2008 09:35:14
An amazing uturn by Brown.

It makes you look forward to Calman now. Does Brown know that it will suggest more powers and is getting in to make sure he is not arguing against Calman.

The real question is how many tax raising powers the Scottish Parliament will get.

Is anything less than fiscal autonomy workable.

Got to say it, Salmond has run rings round Brown, and Brown than said no more powers for sp only last yr has caved in.

Also it put labours plans to be vindictive and withhold council tax rebate in a complete mess. If scotland raises its own taxes the whole thing becomes irrelevent.
57

Alan B,

05/09/2008 09:37:07
#subrosa

I think Brown has realised Scotland is going independent if he does not change his stance. He realises that his whole strategy of picking fights with the snp has been lost. He is a desparate man.
58

BIG EYE,

Paisley 05/09/2008 09:39:15
Enjoying the jig to a Scottish tune Gordon?
59

Alan B,

05/09/2008 09:48:25
#bring them on

As Bill Clinton said "its the economy stupid".

We all know Scotland biggest problem and biggest failing within the union is the economy. Our economic growth has been less than the uk and other small european nations over a prolonged period of time.

You would have to be daft if you still think Westminster will address scotland economic issues. As long as the uk is appearing to do ok it does not matter if scotland is struggling. We had the disaster of the tories for 17yrs. Labour went prattling on about the north south divide for much of that time. But have done nothing to address that.

Surely even with your unionist tinted glasses on you can see turnig to an economist to address economic problems is better than turning to a lawyer etc. Most chancellors in the uk have little serious economic experience prior to the job.
60

MoClana,

05/09/2008 09:48:45
#94 ' Yes, he is an economist. So are millions of other people '

....and are all these millions of people (in Scotland?) also very able politicians? ...no? then theres your answer?

Erm, you think Scotland would not survive in Global markets, please enlighten us, what makes us uniquely incapable compared to other nations?
61

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 09:49:11
92


There is no doubt that Brown made a fatal mistake in attacking the legitimate government of Scotland who can only enact on devolved matters which clearly he has no power over,either that or they have NOT been devolved.
Similarly the witholding of the Council tax rebate which is rightfully part of the Scottish Block Grant,and claiming it is not because its now a total only ,when in previous years it was clearly an itemised payment and INCLUDED the council tax rebate allowance.
Its just a pity that he had to be taught this and should have known better.

Attack Scotland's government which is elected and as legitimate as the Westminster one is rightly interpreted as being ANTI SCOTTISH.Maybe now that Brown has realised this,maybe he will tell his numpties to change the record also,Who knows?

Years ago Tam frae the Binns said this was a slippery slope.

You got that one right Tam!
The best part is you cannot climb back up.
62

Ananurhing,

05/09/2008 09:54:27
#21 bring them on,05/09/2008 03:15:40
#20

"I do not think it appropriate to attack others because they do not have the same views as myself."


For goodness sake man, get over yourself and go to bed!
You've been up all night doing nothing but "attack others" who disagree with your narrow minority viewpoint.
63

gus1940,

Edinburgh 05/09/2008 09:55:24
Just 'Running Scared'

Apologies to Roy Orbison 1961.
64

Andrew Ireland,

Blackrock 05/09/2008 10:02:32
bleak obsession? pot, kettle?

It is somewhat worrying that the alleged financial heavyweight Brown thinks that Scotland's trade with England would be damaged by us being independent members of the European Union.
65

Calum10,

05/09/2008 10:06:21
Wee Eck triumphs over Mr. Bean once more.

This is no longer a fair political contest. For pity's sake will no one put Gordon Brown out his misery.
66

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/09/2008 10:11:25
For Brown to call the SNP "bleak" is a bit rich, coming from Mr Bleak himself !!
67

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/09/2008 10:13:26
#8 wrong gender
68

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/09/2008 10:15:58
#16 bring them on

Which Brown are you talking about? We are all discussing the PM. Keep up!
69

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 10:16:51
94

Scotland would be governed by whoever Scotland elected.

We don't know who that is after the independence of Scotland is declared ,and recognised (which it will be).WE were formerly a nation .WE return to a recognised legitimacy older than the UK.

Its therefore pointless to discuss what Alex Salmond would do ,beyond the transformation period government.
Our position would be much as it is now subject to acceptance of EU terms which would certainly not be any less than they are currently. The EU is not daft,and will know that we expect a deal which is acceptable.
Post independence Scotland would possibly return a Labour government in which Henry McLeish was Prime Minister for all we know.Since we dont know who, why ask anything about a PM until we do know who he/she is ?

Salmond may decide he has done his bit and withdraw for all I know immediately after the horse trading with Westminster stops.
I presume like his party his raison d etre has been fulfilled as far as the political arena goes, but maybe he will decide that he wants to continue.Only he will be able to answer that one.
Our foreign policy will be that of the elected Scottish Prime Minister.We don't know anything more than that.

70

Border Scot,

05/09/2008 10:18:53
#102 - If Scotland were to adopt the Euro then there is every chance that trade could be significantly damaged as it would automatically make all Scottish imports into England much more expensive. And the financial servicessector in Scotland - currently our most successful industry - would either have to move south or subject itself to the control of a foreign (ie English) financial services authority. Either option is pretty unappealing.

And, of course, there is absolutely no guarantee that Scotland or England would be an automatic member of the EU. At the very least there would have to be negotiations around a Scottish accession, which may lead to a settlement that the Scottish people may find unpalatable.

None of these things are reasons for Scotland not to be independent, but it would be nice if nationalists could admit that this is what would happen. Independence is not an easy choice and it is selling the Scottish people short to say that it is.
71

Border Scot,

05/09/2008 10:20:08
#109 - The EU will dictate the terms of Scotland's entry into the EU and it will be up to us to accept them or reject them. We will have no leverage whatsoever. These are the simple facts I am afraid.
72

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/09/2008 10:22:02
#43 Bring them on

"Do you really think Salmond has got a clue what he's talking aboot?"

Gordon Brown certainly seems to think so.
73

noswod,

Honestus 05/09/2008 10:23:35
Aye you Scotties picking over how rich you would be if only you could get rid of them doon Sooth. 70 years of economic decline awaits (Ireland 1917-1987). The oil has been sold off and what aboot the % of the national debt that would go with a privatisation of Scotland. Unfortunately the price of oil goes down as well as up. So far as Slamond being an economist ? he the man from the bank that paid £50bn for Amro bank still he would be ideal to lead the nation on another Darien expedition or the team down to Argentina to win the world cup. Union with them doon sooth is just too profitable for us.
74

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/09/2008 10:28:20
#47 thinking

A touch over-simplistic.

Try reading Niall Aslen's article if you are genuinely interested in the economics

http://www.alba.org.uk/scotching/greatdeception.html
75

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/09/2008 10:31:49
#53 bring them on:

"I hope that SNP is not relying on your debating skills to help them out."

No, but we are relying heavily on yours! LOL!!!
76

Border Scot,

05/09/2008 10:45:51
#118 - What is noticeable about Morris's post is the number of times he uses the phrase "we don't know". That worries me and it strikes me that the Scottish people will not make any decision to break-up the UK until we do know a few more things, such as:

1. Will we be an automatic member of the EU and on what terms?
2. What currency will we have?
3. What settlement will be negotiated with the rest of the UK?
4. What will the Scottish constitution be?

Of course even when we have these answers, independence will be no picnic - but at least then we will all know what we are getting into.
77

Doh,

05/09/2008 10:51:24

So a federal settlement with full fiscal autonomy draws closer - sooner or later people realise that LibDems polcies are the best way - just a pity more people dont vote for them.
78

guenevere,

05/09/2008 10:52:08
See Hoy is fed up of Salmonds glory shareing.
Search: in
Hoy 'annoyed over political debate' The 32-year-old, who was born in Edinburgh, said: "I was annoyed at getting drawn into a political debate when I'm an athlete. I ride a bike, I'm not a politician." "I have to be very careful about what I say but I stand by what I said in terms of the call for a Scottish team to be entered into the Olympics. Before you even start thinking about that, you have to show commitment and put your money where your mouth is."
79

,

05/09/2008 11:06:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
80

guenevere,

05/09/2008 11:07:53
Salmond couldn't run a salmon farm let alone a vibrant country like Scotland. He rides on the backs of other peoples glory,he uses his mouth before his brain and appoints ministers who either have no basic maths skills,or are incompetent fools.
81

Andrew Ireland,

Blackrock 05/09/2008 11:08:40
Border Scot

There is no question that we would be a member of the EU if we became independent (nor that we would be eagerly welcomed by the other EU member states). We could choose to leave if we wanted but that would not be a clever choice. It is conceivable that England would choose to leave the EU which would indeed pose some difficult challenges for Scotland as well as England - but even if they left they would probably negotiate to remain part of most of the single market (like the Norwegians who comply with most of the rules better than many EU members but have no voice in how they are set).

If we are wise enough to for example cut business rates then we may well have increased trade with England once we are independent.

But at the end of the day independence only gives us the power to make choices - it is no guarantee we make the right choices.
82

AJ Fife,

05/09/2008 11:13:31
"bleak, separatist obsession"

Hardly, the SNP want Scotland to be *included* in a vibrant European community, with proper representation!

The Unionists like to avoid tackling this viewpoint however....
83

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 11:13:45
121

Senior members of the EU,.(past presidents and secretaries etc) have confirmed many times over the years that Scotland retains EU membership and the break up of the UK is an internal matter and they have no views on this whatsoever.They have said they forsee NO problems and an almost seemless continuation.
A precedent of a similar sutuation was set years ago involving Greenland and Denmark I believe,and this would apprently be very similar according to experts in such matters.This has been widely publicised.

The terms likely to be offerred to all previous UK countries are unlikley to differ from those we currently enjoy,but of course negotiation is certainly going to happen.

If EU presidents and secretaries invariably say this,or something remarkably similar, why do you say differently? They should know if anybody does!

Maybe that well known Scottish broadcaster Border TV from Carlisle has something to do with it?Have they been taken over by Newcastle based Tyne Tees yet?
I doubt that's a step in the right direction!

We cannot tell you what the result of negotiations with Westminster will be in certainty, but there are international guidelines which the UK is a signatory to and both Holyrood and Westminster become equal upon secession.Both are legitimate governments of separate states.As a general rule a pro rata population settlement applies to both assets and liabilities, which means around 9% as far as I am aware, but of course some horse trading is inevitable.
Please be under no illusion Scotland does not ask London.London negotiates on equal footing with Holyrood what was after all paid for by Scots also.

What worries me is that you know even less than I do!
84

AM2,

Scotland,UK 05/09/2008 11:19:45
I can't see anything new in what Gordon Brown said. The Commission was mandated by the Scottish parliament to:

“review the provisions of the Scotland Act 1998 in the light of experience and to recommend any changes to the present constitutional arrangements that would enable the Scottish Parliament to better serve the people of Scotland, that would IMPROVE THE FINANCIAL ACCOUNTABILITY of the Scottish Parliament and that would continue to secure the position of Scotland within the United Kingdom” (my capitals, and virtually identical to Gordon Brown's key phrase).

Motion S3M-976, 6th December 2007
85

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 11:19:47
127 You are entitled to an opinion.

So far thats all you have ever offered with nothing of substance to back it up,but your knowledge of Scotland is woeful at times.Of course you cannot be held responsible for what you know nothing about.
86

Alan B,

05/09/2008 11:23:12
#Doh

" sooner or later people realise that LibDems polcies are the best way - just a pity more people dont vote for them." :)
87

Kimg Arthur,

05/09/2008 11:27:34
127 - Salmond couldn't run a salmon farm? Haha! That's very clever of you! Cos Salmond is a bit like salmon!!!!! LOL!!!

You are SO right! I heard he was a shocking economist whilst he was at RBS.

I heard that Salmond has been hand picking his team from people who were educated in the Tees Valley - where they have some of the highest levels of thickery in England. Apparently, it is due to the poor quality teaching staff and heavy metals pollution in the water.
88

Border Scot,

05/09/2008 11:28:29
#131 - What people have said in the past does not guarantee what will happen in the future. Scotland's entry into the EU will be subject to a negotiaiton that will involve, for example, how much we contribute financially, whether we get a Commissioner, how many MEPs we get, our voting power in Council of Minister meetings and so on. There is wide disagreement among constitutional experts as to what will happen. See here, for example:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/29/snp.scotland

As a point of note, Greenland was never a part of the EU, even when a part of Denmark, so the parallel you mention does not exist.

As for the break-up negotiations, there is no international law on how these should proceed and what outcomes we should expect. The point about negotiations is that they are always unique. And until we know what they have produced, how can we possibly decide on whether we want to be independent or not?

What worries me is that you clearly seem to follow SNP propoganda blindly and have not begun to think through these issues for yourself. Thankfully, I believe most Scots will be less gullible than you.
89

The Master,

05/09/2008 11:31:12
Brown is quite right: the current block grant system has been exploited by the Nats to the point where it has become completely discredited. The sheer cheek of introducing Tartan Tory type populist bribes, such as the abolition of prescription charges and the freezing of CT, and then taking all the credit in the full knowledge that the SP has no accountability for the money it spends is beyond belief.

Not to worry, the Calman Commission will in all likelihood recommend that the parliament be given its own tax raising powers and this will finally put an end to the Nats' pathetic games. This is in no way playing into the Nats' hands, as the article goes on to postulate: rather, it's the best way of neutralising the scourge of nationalism in Scotland.


90

Alan B,

05/09/2008 11:34:18
#132 AM2

"I can't see anything new in what Gordon Brown said"

Brown said before the last election that no new powers were needed for the Scottish parliament. Labour stood on a platform of no new powers for the sp. So this is a change of position.

Even with Calman. This was a Scottish parliament iniative and not a Brown one. When the scottish parties came out with more new powers and called it a commission brown went into battle saying that powers could be withdrawn and that it was only a review, downplaying the importance of it.

While Wendy freely talked about fiscal federalism this is the first time that Brown has ever talked about conceding financial powers to the scottish parliament.

Finally it also means the end of the Barnett formula.
91

MoClana,

05/09/2008 11:34:58
# 100 (Bring them on) steal that one from Wendy did you?

How about you answer the question i asked? ' what makes Scotland uniquley incapable compared to other nations survivng in a global markets...?

What is 'cheeky' about stating Alex Salmon is an able politician? Like him or loath him...he clearly is ! hence the constant personal attacks from the Unionists like you! Your argument for Scotland remaing part of the UK is redundant, out of date and reduced to (amongst other illogical theories, border guards and split family ties etc )personal attacks on Salmond, time after time the question has been asked' what is the Union dividend' and time after time we get the same vague nonsense about being better as ' british ' maybe you will buck the trend and elaborate?

Or are you just another ultra brit nationalist who's blind hatred on independence prohibits you from logical and rational debate....

So come, give us alternatives to your rants




92

Tris,

05/09/2008 11:36:08

Goodness. I was sure that, following yesterdays's headline, The Scotsman, being a responsible newspaper would give the other side of the coin.

Wrong. Instead they lead with this half-witted North Britishman, who wouldn't even be able to say the name of the newspaper without choking.

Two soon to be relics of the past, The Scotsman and the North Britisher.
93

Kimg Arthur,

05/09/2008 11:36:48
142 - no, he wasn't, but there was a poor poster on here that people talked of - her old dad AND nan in Dundee used to make her feel funny....down there. Apparently she was over 18 and consenting though, so, whilst depraved, its ok.

On a separate topic, anyone seen the infamous kimba?
94

AM2,

Scotland,UK 05/09/2008 11:41:19
#143 Alan B

Old news. The Constitutional Commission was established with Labour's blessing, both at Holyrood and (for the most part) at Westminster. There was indeed a change of focus, but it occurred last year.

#135 Hawkeye

Hello. Hope you're well...
95

Kimg Arthur,

05/09/2008 11:42:56
It is staggering how badly Labour have handled the British economy. And isn't this what they lay their reputation on?

FAIL.
96

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 11:45:11
136
I never claimed to be clairvoyant and can no more guarantee something will be than you can it will not.
THAT IS SELF EVIDENT.
I am not pretending otherwise.
However I have seen many comments over the years including one from Brian Wilson who said
Of course Scotland would be a very wealthy country if she were independent.Labour explained this and Scotland rejected this.

Not quite !



Labour explained the opposite and Scotland believed it ! Its hardly the same thing.

When Scotland voted for Blair and Brown they did not know what was coming did they?

They couldn't possibly have known,or they would never have voted for them and the opinion polls say so .

Hindsight is a marvellous thing as they say.


I make a judgement as best I can like anybody else.I argue my corner and others argue theirs.

That is democracy.
I even listen to you even where its obvious that we do not agree.

I'm not claiming to be well informed.I know I am not!

Maybe a little humility on all our parts might be a smart move, you included of course?
My being aware of my limitations does nothing to strengthen your argument as far as I can see.
Does it?
I don't see how.
97

Border Scot,

05/09/2008 11:45:15
#148 - I am no Labour apologist, but I would be interested to know where you think they have gone wrong. Is it not the case that all countries in the developed world are going through similar problems and that many are already in recession?
98

The Tin Man,

05/09/2008 11:46:58
Hawkeye #134

"Look at you. Look at your sneering little jibes"

"a whimping little coward "

etc
99

AM2,

Scotland,UK 05/09/2008 11:47:27
#143

Oh, and powers could of course be withdrawn. For example, I think there’s quite a strong argument for “undevolving” certain areas for which the application of existing powers has been considered to be discriminatory. Perhaps the clearest example of that would be student funding.
100

Alan B,

05/09/2008 11:47:55
#AM2

But it does show a change in Browns position.

This is the first time that Brown has ever come out publicly and said that he supports reforming Scotland financial arrangements. That is a big shift.

The question is how far does he want it to go. And how far the Calman commission will take it.

Also if you reform scotlands financial arrangements how are labour going to do it without scotland losing out?

Also will Brown want to go into the next general election against Cameron saying he will abolish Barnett or will he want to have introduced the changes first (or atleast introduce the legislation).
101

Kimg Arthur,

05/09/2008 11:48:11
I wish we here in England had a party like your SNP that would make such good and proper decisions. As my old dad used to say, "those Scots have been blessed, not so much with the luck of the irish, but the skill of the Scots" ahh, old dad.
102

N B,

05/09/2008 11:48:27
One interesting consequence of the "Tartan Tax" could be that subsidies from the UK government could be reduced on a pro-rata basis. Interesting times, local tax raising would be another step on the journey to eventual independence. It would be interesting to see how a fledgling Scotland could cope without the Ecnonomic powerhouse of South East England to support it. One outcome would be that over time Scotland would become a much lower wage economy than England with wage levels eventually becoming similar to those of Poland or the Czech republic. This would give Scottish business a competitive advantage over their English counterparts.
103

Alan B,

05/09/2008 11:52:42
#150 Border Scot

Where labour have gone wrong with the economy?

They have run up huge fiscal deficits in relatively good economic conditions. This was irresponsible. It also leaves them very little room for manouvre now that things have turned sour.

When an economy hits chop waters you will want to let deficits rise and maybe pump some money into the economy. Brown is limited in what he can do becuase of his fiscal policies.

(He was actually good in the first 2 yrs). But since he has broken his own fiscal rules and had to fudge and re-write them to give the appearance of meeting them.

The EU now is taking action against the UK becuase we are seen as being one of the most irresponsible when it comes to managing our fiscal policies.
104

guenevere,

05/09/2008 11:54:03
When I moved to Scotland a decade ago, there was no real appetite in England, that I was aware of, for a breaking of the Union: rather the reverse. Now, there is a real movement towards that: given the right circumstances, Scotland may find itself ejected (if it does not leave of its own free will). Let's hope that they don't manage to bankrupt themselves again...
105

AM2,

Scotland,UK 05/09/2008 11:54:44
#154 Alan B

As I said, he's expressed his approval of the Commission previously.

Anyway, we're hair-splitting now. Catch you later.
106

Ananurhing,

05/09/2008 11:55:20
#101 bring them on,05/09/2008 09:59:01
#98

"Are you the big guns?"


No! Far from it! Just trying to read the thread, which usually contains more relevant information than the story. You're like an irritating wee chihuahua, incessantly yapping in the background and getting in the way.
All I get from your posts is, you dislike Labour, you think Gordon's great, and you have a rabid hatred for anyone who supports or votes for the SNP. I don't get what you stand for. Like I said, a narrow minority view point.
You must be bleary eyed by now. Up all night,throwing insults, stewing in bile, frothing at the mouth and doing an awful lot of LOLing at your own half witicisms.

Trip trap off to bed now! Don't forget your prayers! Or your wing! It won't seem quite so bad when you finally wake up!

107

Kimg Arthur,

05/09/2008 11:56:09
~There is nothing discriminatory about giving Scottish students free education - the point is, it would bankrupt the Scottish education budget as so many of us English know what excellent quality education awaits north of the border. So, it is fair and just that us English should pay.
108

John S,

05/09/2008 11:56:11
#131 Morris -Senior members of the EU etc
If Scotland had to re-apply, so would the rest. I am puzzled at the suggestion that there would be a difference in the status of Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom in terms of community law if the Act of Union was dissolved."
Those were the words of the late Lord MacKenzie-Stuart, a former president of the European Court of Justice.

Eamonn Gallagher, former Director-General of the European Commission, who has stated that "it's inconceivable the EU wouldn't welcome an independent Scotland with open arms" Independence would leave Scotland and something called the rest' in the same legal boat.

Scotland and the remainder of the UK would be equally entitled, and obliged, to continue the existing full membership of the EU. This was conceded by Emile Noel, one of Europe's founding fathers and long-serving secretary-general of the European Commission, who said Scottish independence would create two states, which would have "equal status with each other and the other states".
109

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 12:00:39
140 Never said she was part of the EU.Read what I said !

ITS NOT THERE IS IT?

Former countries are recognised automatically as I understand thus and I beleive its a UN agreement drawn up after the last war, but I am not an expert or even close.

I am not walking about with exact references in my head, but I do know one SNP member of my local consituency party certianly does know his onions.

His name is Professor Sir Neil MacCormick , Professor Emeritus of Public Law and the Law of Nature and Nations in the University of Edinburgh and that just for starters.He has written articles books and the like,and there are many others who hold SNP memberships.If he says its sound then thats good enough for me!

If you know better then you should write to the Queen.They obviously missed you out!
110

Kimg Arthur,

05/09/2008 12:00:49
I am a member of the ENP and us people in England have a great admiration for all that you Scots have achieved under the SNP. Us proud English would say, WELL DONE! if you guys became independent. It just sort of makes sense.....but beware of an influx of us English plumbers and builders, trying to catch a chunk of your middle-eastern oil wealth! At least we speak better english than the Polish (even if we take more tea breaks! LOL) I think Scotland would welcome English migrants to help you build your economy into an oil super-power.
111

David MacVicar,

Web 05/09/2008 12:01:41
The solution to Financial accountability to the Scottish parliament but without independence and perhaps saving the Union is simple.

Scotland needs to have total fiscal autonomy and sends money to Westminster for shared UK issues/services that remain reserved eg Defense.

Keeping it the other way round is clearly not workable and open to political 'obfuscation' on all sides.

Just giving more TAX powers does NOT give accountability or clarity.

Personally I prefer all out independence because we have a clear North/South divide on core issues of defence and Energy policy but... I think the Unionists may have seen the writing on the wall.
Calman may now actually recommend something near fiscal control but excluding Energy control. However since Energy is a vital component of the Scottish economy and future diversification, having one without the other is also ludicrous and unmanageable!
112

AM2,

Scotland,UK 05/09/2008 12:04:04
#140 Border Scot
#163 John S

I collected various legal opinions on the EU membership issue, here:

http://www.scottishunionist.com/2008/08/independence-in-europe-highly-debatable.html
113

guenevere,

05/09/2008 12:04:10
162. You are a scot pretending to be English,now you know that no English person would spout such garbage,you are nothing more than a SNP troglodyte.
114

Skyrat,

Edinburgh 05/09/2008 12:05:17

So now it's greater fiscal autonomy for Scotland?

Running scared. The UK Government is running scared of the independence movement in Scotland.

They'll continue to give us more powers, little by little, beag air bheag, in the hope that this will stave off the argument for independence.

Keep it up, independence is a foregone conclusion and trying to appease us with some more crumbs is only going to make us want the rest of the biscuit more.
115

Kimg Arthur,

05/09/2008 12:06:53
169 - Guenevere NOT TRUE! I was born and raised in Plymouth and have lived near Tavistock most of my life. But, thanks for asking. What is your problem? You must have very low self-esteem.
116

Ananurhing,

05/09/2008 12:10:36
#171

Touche! LOL!
117

John S,

05/09/2008 12:10:47
#168 AM2: If I visit that scottishunionist.com website I think you will then know my IP address and therefore my approx location ?
118

Kimg Arthur,

05/09/2008 12:11:10
Guenevere - I am a card carrying member of the ENP - English National Party - but I don't expect you know a single thing about that as you don't seem to know anything about politics and come across as very thick.

Us in the ENP have been discussing ideas for how us in England can become more like the Scots and the SNP. We may one day want to become independent but hopefully we can devolve power from the UK as we are going backwards whilst Wales, NI and Scotland are powering ahead.
119

N B,

05/09/2008 12:12:09
The general question on Scottish independence is, does the country want to be led to it by a Nationalist Socialist party, or should it be through a coalition from across the political spectrum?

Rather than playing petty political games, the SNP should be striving to create a cross party national coalition that will take the debate forward. Independence by stealth, led by a Nationalist Socialist party motivated by the desire for power, is the worst possible outcome for the nation.
120

The Dark Side,

05/09/2008 12:12:18
#146 Kimg Arthur: kimba's not been around for a while, but watch out for guenevere (an elaboration on lizzie the first, for all you hardcore fans of the Dark Side out there!)
121

guenevere,

05/09/2008 12:13:26
169. England subsidised Scotland by 11.3 billion pounds last year,now i do not think English students should have to pay to attend Scottish universities when their parents taxes have gone to Scotland in the first place.
122

Kimg Arthur,

05/09/2008 12:14:07
Oh dear - does that guenevere character make up multiple user names? Is this because she keeps embarassing herself and tries to run away and hide, then comes back spouting the same rubbish? Gosh - she must be jolly thick.
123

Kimg Arthur,

05/09/2008 12:17:33
but guenevere - you obviously don't read any (sensible) newspapers - you must know that Scotland has oil and gas on a significant global scale??? Look at other oil and gas exporters and how wealthy they are....its just that alot of the business has to be done through London. If Scotland was independent Edinburgh and Glasgow would take over - Edinburgh is a huge buy-side town. They just need to increase the sell-side and they'd be massive.
124

Border Scot,

05/09/2008 12:17:50
#164 - And the person whose artcle I linked to is Professor Robert Hazell, director of the Constitution Unit at University College London. Which is why I said there are significant disagreements. Which means we do not know what the real situation.My point being that until we do, how on earth can we vote for Scottish independence? It's the same until we know what the actual independence settlement would look like, what the Scottish constitution would contain and what currency we would use.

I know all these things are difficult for nationalists to talk about as they want to make independence seem like an easy, trouble free step, but until they are resolved I am afraid you are not going to get most Scots voting the way you want them to in a referendum.
125

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 12:19:37
163

What I said was that the EU are not interested in the UKs differences and consier those are internal matters for the four countries to sort out.There have been numerous responses which suggested that continued membership would be almost certain for Scotland AND the Rest of the former UK, and neither should fear being disadvantaged by Scotlands leaving the UK, and meberships of the EU would almost certainly be considered to remain unless we decide that we cannot accept the terms on offer.

I believe Winnie Ewing asked this very question of the outgoing President( at the time) just after David Martin MEP had said otherwise and apparently he privately ridiculed Martins claim!He could foresee no circumstances where this would happen,but of course NOBODY KNOWS THE FUTURE in certainty and that means ALL OF US.
Having said that,
the EU are unlikely to offer terms which we find unacceptable ,since they already know what we have now,and less will surely not be accepted, and why would they offer lesser terms anyway? They have no reason to do so.

Of course nothing is guaranteed,but that could apply to the current situation and the UK might decide to leave .Who knows ?

I am not saying I can see into the future.
Is someone saying they can?
126

N B,

05/09/2008 12:21:11
I read an interesting article in a journal published around the turn of the 18/19thcentury. The article discussed the merits of redefining the English border from it's current location to the line between the firth of forth and the firth of clyde. The rationale was that with improved transport links to the south, it would greatly benefit the area to be integrated into the English legal, education and commercial systems. Many people living in this area at the time would use "North Britain as their postal address, believing Scotland to start north of the Clyde/Forth line.
127

Kimg Arthur,

05/09/2008 12:25:05
Yes, it really is too much of a coincidence - Elizabeth the first and guenevere are the same - and funny that she tries to choose english queens, even though guenevere was probably French or Welsh! LOL! She really must be quite stupid!! Her level of argument is that of a 12 year old. Does she think you won't notice? I presume she "comes here often" as she leads such an empty existence, all she can do is turn up on this website and be rude about you fantastic Scots. Its pathetic.
128

guenevere,

05/09/2008 12:25:23
181. Please read my post @ 159. Don't tell me what i already know,even though you exaggerate it some what.
129

guenevere,

05/09/2008 12:28:20
183.Your point would be....
130

Kimg Arthur,

05/09/2008 12:28:49
kimba/guenevere's "old dad" works a 66 hr week! LOL! I bet he works 37.5hrs a week and spends the rest of the time boning his mistress/playing golf/down the pub, because he can't stand to be in the house with a pathetic cretin like guenevere! LOL!
131

Border Scot,

05/09/2008 12:29:28
#184 - To join the EU Scotland would have to sign up to the Lisbon Treaty and the Common Fisheries Policy. Our membership would be conditional on those. The EU knows that Scotland needs them much more than they need us. They will offer us terms and if we agree them fine, if not, then I am sure they will say that is fine too and we will not be a member.
132

N B,

05/09/2008 12:30:04
#189

For your information, I only buy the Sunday Post for Oor Wullie and the Broons...
133

N B,

05/09/2008 12:33:17
#194

Top of the agenda in the build up to Independence would be to agree that Scotland should get a share of the revenue from the UK oil fields when they leave the UK. The most that could be hoped for would be a pro-rata per head of population allocation.
134

Ewan M,

05/09/2008 12:34:27
Would be pleased if Scotland gets tax powers. It would then mean the SNP have to employ some realism instead of following the popularist policices with cocky Salmond spearheading it. The party and the man are small minded, insular thinking, blinkered diddies and this will show them up if they were to have real accountability.
135

N B,

05/09/2008 12:35:35
#197 Page 3 is usually some human interest story, e.g. Man who eats a christmas dinner every day of the year.
136

N B,

05/09/2008 12:36:52
#198 Ewan

They are a Nationalist, Socialist party with a populist agenda. A recipe for disaster!
137

Fairfax,

05/09/2008 12:38:07
King Arthur (162): "the point is, it would bankrupt the Scottish education budget as so many of us English know what excellent quality education awaits north of the border."

The different treatment assigned to students in Scotland resident in England is only possible under EU law because the UK is a single member state: it's illegal to discriminate against other EU states (who therefore avoid these fees), but legal to discriminate against members of the same state.

This suggests an interesting consequence: if Scotland becomes an independent EU nation in its own right, then English students will have the right to university places under the same terms as the Scots.
138

Embra Don,

05/09/2008 12:39:31
Can't see that the EU would want us myself. Apart from having most of the current EU's oil, possibly a quarter of its gas, a good chunk of its fishing potential, the best potential for tidal, wave and wind energy, huge coal reserves, excellence in financial services and education - what could we possibly offer?
139

Publius,

London 05/09/2008 12:39:36
Brown's speech is very irritating. If the UK PM thinks that more powers over taxation should be devolved, he should say which powers.
140

LEAL,

05/09/2008 12:41:57
Gordon Brown,
What a clown,
Cannot keep the natives down.
141

Nevsky,

Moscow 05/09/2008 12:42:23
198 Ewen:

'The party and the man are small minded, insular thinking, blinkered diddies and this will show them up if they were to have real accountability'


Just like the Scottish people are holding the Labour Party accountable you mean?
142

N B,

05/09/2008 12:43:25
#204

The oil and gas reserves are all in UK fields, Scotland will have to negotiate a share on cessation from the union. Fishing, I'll give you that one.
No country owns the wind, just because it blows over Scotland first before hitting Europe, does not make it ours. Grow up Son.
143

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 12:43:37
177

The SNP were born from a coalition of the National Party of Scotland and the Scottish Party.
The National Party of Scotland was founded by amongst others former Liberal MP Cunningham Graham who joined forces with his pal Keir Hardie and formed the Independent Labour Party,which quickly floundered.The Labour Party being a fledgling also( mostly in Bradford area I think) was where Keir Hardie went,and became its president.
Cunningham Graham's NPS party included communist Hugh McDiaramid and entered into coalition with a breakaway from the Conservative Party called the Scottish Party (if I recall accurately).
The SNP has been a broad spectrum since day one therefore.
After independence the SNP will beonly one of numerous parties contesting, and it could be a Labour government just as easily in Scotland, or anybody for that matter.

What you suggest is what the SNP already are,as much as its possible to be, and Members arrive daily,many from Labour, but we still get some former Tories and even the odd Lib Dem also.We cannot be much more of a rainbow than we are already.

Our purpose is to unite Scotlands people from all points on the spectrum, and it cannot happen any other way .So far,so good.
144

guenevere,

05/09/2008 12:43:56
193. Can you read? if so read my post at 159.
145

Border Scot,

05/09/2008 12:45:17
#204 - What does that matter? Our market would be the EU whether we were in it or not. And in order to get the resources you identify to anywhere else we would have to transport it through EU territory.
146

Cam3,

05/09/2008 12:45:31
David at #167 said:

'Calman may now actually recommend something near fiscal control but excluding Energy control. However since Energy is a vital component of the Scottish economy and future diversification, having one without the other is also ludicrous and unmanageable!'

As I said earlier - I do not think Brown is running against Calman. This is a unionist tool, cross border, to do one thing - and one thing only - to do SOMETHING to ensure the nats can't continue their progress.

That means coming up with tax raising powers etc - perhaps a few other bits 'n bobs - whilst effectively removing energy control and planning etc. from the SNP, the elected govt.

The commission should be called he 'We had never anticipated an SNP victory, what can we do to ensure Scotland does not clearly makes progress in standing on its own two feet whilst embracing policies relevant for her' commission.

I DO NOT trust Mr.Brown and, frankly, think he's all too aware of the vein of Calman, and what it will, inevitably, suggest.

And all without the Scottish govts. input, and all AGAINST a parliament that's serving the people.

It's called CHANGING THE GOALPOSTS. An affront to democracy.

147

Fairfax,

05/09/2008 12:47:44
morris (184): "There have been numerous responses which suggested that continued membership would be almost certain for Scotland AND the Rest of the former UK"

However there are also arguments against this. When states secede from a union, international law is often pragmatic if one of the components is an obvious successor state. To give one obvious example, Russia became the successor state when the USSR ceased to exist in the early 1990s. If this route is taken, then England, as the repository of 90% of the population and wealth, would be the obvious successor state, and Scotland would then have to re-apply. To give one example, when French Algeria seceded, at which point it was legally part of France, it did not automatically become a member of the EEC.

I'm always surprised here why (i) so many Scots nationalists want to believe that EU membership for Scotland would be automatic, and (ii) why so many believe it to be necessary.
Still, we might obtain a more useful precedent soon if Belgium divides.
148

N B,

05/09/2008 12:47:52
#206

The guy who ate the Christmas dinner every day would go "off piste" on occasion and have beef instead of turkey. However it would always be accompanied by tatties(various cooking methods), sprouts, carrots, occasionally chipolatas and always a dollop of cranberry sauce.
149

guenevere,

05/09/2008 12:51:27
What has pi--ed people right off now, though, is that the Scottish Executive (so called government) has started using its large subsidy to implement concrete crowd-pleasing policies not available in England. And these policies are not funded through the higher taxation of the Scots—the Executive does, after all, have limited tax-raising powers—but through the ever-increasing tax burden on the whole of the country. Everyone pays, but those in England pay more and do not see the benefits.
150

N B,

05/09/2008 12:52:14
#210 Morris

From noble beginings they have become a power hungry Nationalist Socialist Party with a populist agenda. You and the likes of you represent nobody but yourselves.
151

Fairfax,

05/09/2008 12:52:46
Embra Don (204): "Apart from having most of the current EU's oil, possibly a quarter of its gas, a good chunk of its fishing potential, the best potential for tidal, wave and wind energy, huge coal reserves, excellence in financial services and education - what could we possibly offer?"

But all of that is available to the EU whether Scotland is an EU member or not, except for fishing. What advantage would EU membership bring Scotland?

More to the point, if Scottish membership is not automatic, then the application would require the agreement of all EU members. I strongly suspect that, in the bitterness of division, England would oppose EU membership for Scotland.
152

,

05/09/2008 12:53:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
153

Ewan M,

05/09/2008 12:53:23
Nevsky - What????????You've been spending too much time in Russia, why are you on this board?....T.W.A.T..

#200 You should get togther with Nevsky! Sounds like you have a look in common.
154

LEAL,

05/09/2008 12:54:01
204 Embra Don

Whisky,beef,lamb...education,R&D,...people who are willing to work hard without taking an arrogant,condescending attitude to "johnny foreigner"
I could go on.
155

Publius,

London 05/09/2008 12:55:50
#214 Fairfax
You write: "I'm always surprised here why (i) so many Scots nationalists want to believe that EU membership for Scotland would be automatic, and (ii) why so many believe it to be necessary."

Good point. I remember the SNP campaigning - fiercely - against Europe in the 1975 referendum. They said that the Common Market would be even worse for Scotland than the UK, that London government was already too far away and Brussels was even farther.

They have neve explained why they changed their minds or apologised for being on the wrong side in 1975. It is difficult to trust the fortunes of a nation to a party which is so inconsistent about the nation's place in the world.
156

Kimg Arthur,

05/09/2008 12:56:22
Anyway, I found it funny that kimba's "old dad" works a 66 hr week! LOL! We all know he is out getting himself serviced by his fancy lady, then staggering off to the pub because he doesn't want to be in the house his daughter/wife!! LOL!
157

N B,

05/09/2008 12:56:54
#221

Most of the population is sickly or elderly. If Scotland went Independent a mass migration would be required to make it viable.
158

Embra Don,

05/09/2008 12:57:00
#212 Border Scot

D'uh? Sorry - that was meant to be irony. Should've spelt it out a bit better.
159

David MacVicar,

web 05/09/2008 13:00:56
Cam3

I do not disagree with your analysis but we all know that events have completely overtaken Calman and Brown since the Scottish election.

The scope for Calman to propose a minimalist change to the constitutional setup in order to hold back nationalism has narrowed considerably. What will Calman be able to bribe the Scottish public with that they will swallow? Despite what Gordon said he is definitely leaving the door open to Calman to propose greater change.

Granted, the goal is still to stop the SNP at all costs, the difference is that the costs have become much higher than they originally bargained for. I am not sure if Calman really has had a wakeup call yet but we will see something soon in their interim report.
160

Nevsky,

Moscow 05/09/2008 13:05:24
220:

Accountability is indeed a great thing. Labour losing Glasgow East and also soon another seat i believe, thrown out at the next general election, meltdown in Scotland and the SNP now at their highest opinion poll ratings ever.

Of course most people have more sense than you it seems, never mind only another 8-12 years out of power to cary and whine about the SNP for you.
161

N B,

05/09/2008 13:06:30
Question for you folks, if you had to eat the same type of dinner every day for a year what would you choose?

For me, I'd go for an Italian menu of:

Soup: Minestrone Soup

Main: Spaghetti with meatballs

Dessert: Ice cream and fresh fruit

Drink: Chianti(one glass during the week, a bottle on Fridays, 2 glasses on Saturdays)

My menu will be hard to beat for major food group coverage.

162

Embra Don,

05/09/2008 13:07:26
#221 LEAL

Quite so! So could I but I didn't really want to push the "what did the Romans do for us?" analogy too far.
163

Embra Don,

05/09/2008 13:09:43
#235 N B
Dammit man you have totally sold out to Johnny foreigner! What's wrong with roast beef and spotted dick?
164

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

05/09/2008 13:09:54
Rather amused reading this thread - must be the first time that some of the more extreme Nats have agreed with AM2 - thinking that there has been no shift in policiy.

The truth is that this is a significant movement towards fiscal autonomy. I have always supported the principle of Calman but was sceptical that it could actually come up with something that was radical. I'm a bit more optimistic now. What is important is that pressure is still put on to make sure that it is full fiscal autonomy and not some half-baked form of fiscal federalism.
165

N B,

05/09/2008 13:16:07
How about this one for the Nats:

Soup: Cuck-a-leekie
Main: Haggis, Bashed neeps,Chappit tatties
Dessert: Cranachan with fresh Skye raspberries

Drink: Islay Malt
166

Embra Don,

05/09/2008 13:16:20
#239 The Federalist

The problem with Calman is that his remit is a bit like asking a surgeon to come up with proposals for improving the quality of life for a pair of conjoined twins - but forbidding him to consider surgical separation.
167

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

05/09/2008 13:19:05
I'm going to play devil's advocate for once.

My understanding is - and the Nats will correct me if I am wrong - if there is a yes vote in a referendum then this would not immediately result in an independent Scotland. What it would mean is that there would be negotiation of the terms of seperation of Scotland from the rest of the UK.

If that is the case then surely there would also be negotiation happening at the same time to secure entry to the EU at the same time?

Now that may take time as some have pointed out but so would a negotiated settlement between Scotland and the UK - it could be perfectly possible for Scotland to be officially independent on the day it accedes to the EU - in fact it would make no sense not to approach the issue in this way. I am no supporter of independence as many of you know but if it were to happen I'd rather it were done in a manner that was realistic and feasible.

What I won't do - as some here seem to be doing is relying on technicalities and economics to defend their opposition to independence. My objections are much more fundamental and are related to the social and political aspects of independence.

That being said, what I would at least like and, where I do believe there is room for criticism, is for the SNP to put some flesh on the bones regards how negotiation for EU entry would happen in practice. That may be something for the Scottish Parliament's External & European Affairs committee to look at.
168

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 13:20:15
217
You and the likes of you represent nobody but yourselves.

I don't know of any party who represent people who disagree with them?

Do you?

169

N B,

05/09/2008 13:22:37
#241

I reckon that you would be diagnosed with colon cancer before the year was out on that diet. You are not taking this seriously are you?

As we have a few English guests on this thread. So they don't feel left out I will do a menu for them:

Starter: Consume Soup(made from an Oxo cube and onion salt)
Main: Faggots in alphabeti spaghetti
Dessert: Fairy cakes
Drink: cinzano bianco

170

Nevsky,

Moscow 05/09/2008 13:29:29
245:

It's all the SNP's fault for being popular. Damn that Alex Salmond for good governance and popular policies. Of course we all know that it will all fall down soon as we are much cleverer than Alex Salmond and his Nationalist Socialist pro-Scottish populist party.

But in the meantime we are in opposition and find it better to offer the Unionist chringe and whine rather than offer anything of any use whatsoever.
171

Aearnur,

Glasgow 05/09/2008 13:31:27
Poor Gordon's tactics team have obviously been burning the midnight oil. And this is all they've come up with? On the one hand I can see how they'd think they'd score a goal with this through the implication that any future Scottish government would have to live within its means sans handouts. But they score a simultaneous own goal by encouraging the populace to regard the Scottish government as having Gorgon's seal of approval. So the score is one all. Still, he'll be sent off soon, won't he?
172

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 13:34:04
224

I was a Branch Secretary of an SNP branch around 1974 as far as I can recall,and was certainly a member before that.(Gives some indication of my youthful years).

You obviously missed Lynne Devine who defected from the Labour Party many years ago now. She still looks like a stunner !There are some "crackers" around,in both senses of the term,but I have always thought the most fascinating part of any woman is above her eyes and I mean that (but I am as guilty of being an "ornitholigist" as the next man of course)!
173

N B,

05/09/2008 13:34:34
#250

The wine was only mentioned to fit in with the Italian theme. The reality is that I will drink just about any old grog that finds it's way into my glass. Last week I had a few glasses of Cairn O’ Mohr Raspberry Wine, think cordial with a dash meths in it.
174

N B,

05/09/2008 13:39:22
#254 "I have always thought the most fascinating part of any woman is above her eyes"

Tell us more Morris, are you and eyebrows or a fringe man?
175

Alan B,

05/09/2008 13:39:44
#Publius

Labour, tory and snp have all changed there positions on europe. Even the lib dems when they were a coalition of lib and sdp where positioned differently with Owen a bit of a ec sceptic.

The tories have gone from being a pro european party under Heath to being more eurosceptical. While labour were against membership in the 70s and are now more pro eu than the tories.

But it is abit immaterial as the world and the eu has moved on in 30yrs.
176

guenevere,

05/09/2008 13:40:05
219. Unless you can substantiate this i suggest you shut up,other wise you could be facing a slander claim.
177

N B,

05/09/2008 13:43:03
#257

I would say Morris takes a drink. I see him as being the last man through the pub door abusing the rounds system and leaving before it gets to his round. " I'll get my shout in next week lads..." As with independence, next week never comes.
178

Alan B,

05/09/2008 13:46:22
#Fairfax

The advantages to scotland of EU membership would be being part of the single market, a market of about 400 million people. So if you believe in the benefits of free trade the EU is a good idea.

Following on from that their could be good advantages to scotland joining the euro.

On a social level you then have advantages like the free movement of people.

It can also be beneficial if you think europe at large should have a view and contribute to world affairs and take a more assertive view rather than allowing the US to dominate.
179

Embra Don,

05/09/2008 13:47:09
#216 guenevere

Using our pocket money to do things the people like?!?
How un-scrupulous can the SNP get?
180

santa cova,

London 05/09/2008 13:50:04
#130 "I am a Stirling Albion fan"

Very Very strange,that you should appear regularly on all of the Rangers threads giving the Rangers point of view. However, if you now have come to your senses and abandoned sectarian central,that can only be for the good of all.

I apologise to any Stirling Albion fans for mentioning Rangers alongside their team!
181

Alan B,

05/09/2008 13:50:17
#Fed

"My objections are much more fundamental and are related to the social and political aspects of independence."

What would they be?

Given that you support a strong devolution settlement ie fiscal autonomy etc. What powers would you still want pulled?

The only reason to have a union with England is to share powers over areas where is best shared. I do not see how that impacts on social areas.

You come across as someone who would be happy with almost everything devolved and run from the scottish parliament. But don't want formal independence. In many ways just a symbolic link. Can you explain?
182

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 14:04:38



264 Yes the point!


183

Kimg Arthur,

05/09/2008 14:28:34
Yup - its true - there is this teaching assistant in Stockton who is SO stupid that the 8 year olds in her class have to take it in turns to teach her! There are a couple of Scottish kids who she abuses terribly, because they have just moved there, yet already, they have the educational attainment level of a 15 year old in Stockton (when most of them have left school to look after their kids or smack habits). That teaching assistant is a disgrace and one reason why kids in that part of the world are mocked in the rest of England! LOL!
184

Kimg Arthur,

05/09/2008 14:32:36
Sadly, the kids have also taken to mocking her behind her back - they call her "missus fishes" or "ploppy brown bum" because they can see brown stains showing through when she wears a light coloured skirt or trousers....and they know she hasn't learned to do something that they all learned about when they were 2. She's depraved.
185

Kimg Arthur,

05/09/2008 14:38:04
#260 - can I recommend a lawyer friend of mine? He works at Norton Road Lawyers surgery and NHS mentalist unit. He's excellent on cases of slander, defamation, and dealing with racists.
186

Border Scot,

05/09/2008 14:43:34
#246 - The North Sea oil industry is not controlled by Scotland but by the companies who drill for oil there. They will sell their products to whoever they wish at the prices they deem acceptable. The only way for this to change would be if an independent Scotland nationalised the oil industry, but this would be too prohibitive to even think about as a realistic possibility. There are very few reasons why the EU needs an independent Scotland, but many reasons why an independent Scotland may need the EU.

England is clearly a different matter because even without Scotland it would remain a G8 economy and a major population centre (and therefore a market for other EU countries).
187

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/09/2008 15:12:59
#127 Still trolling I see.
188

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/09/2008 15:18:00
#141 Mastur

Your attempt at debate is woefully poor.
189

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/09/2008 15:31:17
#177 NB

"independence by stealth"???

Read the SNP Manifesto. Not exactly stealthy NB. I think they were absolutely clear on the issue.
190

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/09/2008 15:42:26
#227 It's not the hyphen that betrays kimba, it's the childish posts that really catch the eye.
191

The Master,

05/09/2008 15:56:12
#277: either that or I've hit a raw nerve!
192

European Scot,

05/09/2008 16:09:56
275 Border Scot

" The North Sea oil industry is not controlled by Scotland but by the companies who drill for oil there. They will sell their products to whoever they wish at the prices they deem acceptable........... . There are very few reasons why the EU needs an independent Scotland, but many reasons why an independent Scotland may need the EU. "

As for the few reasons why the EU might need an Independent Scotland, well here's your starter for one.
Scotland will always be important to Europe for one geographical reason, it is strategically important.
As for the North Sea Oil industry, who it sells its product to is a commercial decision by the individual owners of the fields, but who taxes that product remains a National one, and that is where the bulk of the revenue remains.
It is the North Sea Oil revenues which remain the focal point as far as Brown's comments about taxes are concerned. It's all very well talking about the Scottish Government's need to be accountable, but that should include the Scottish Government receiving all of Scotland's revenues.
Would Scotland gain automatic entry to the EU. Most likely.
Its strategic importance aside, Scotland's oil will make it a wealthy member country.
How could anyone doubt the ability of an oil producing country like Scotland, to equal the entry qualifications of the likes of successful applicants like Malta, Romania, and Slovenia ?!
Scotland will have no problem getting into the EU, and the trading potential of Europe, along with a common currency and its greater stability, the lower interest rates that come with that , can only benefit the Scottish economy.
The most important thing for Scotland is that it manages all aspects of its economy, and that level of management can only be achieved with its Independence.
193

guenevere,

05/09/2008 18:57:35
279. Do you like picking on young girls, do you get your kicks out of it.
194

guenevere,

05/09/2008 19:08:38
Connaughtboy gets his kicks out of abusing young girls,he/she can't hold a adult conversation so bullies young girls.
195

guenevere,

05/09/2008 19:12:33
King Arthur@ 219. try that again and you will have a law suit
196

guenevere,

05/09/2008 19:20:31
The nationalists are desperate,connaughtboy and King Arthur are evidence of this,they both try and disrespect the characters of the unioists,but here this, if any nationalist posts detremental posts about my daughter again action WILL be taken in the courts.
197

Brian Hill,

05/09/2008 20:05:16
And the times, they are a changin' Bob Dylan

It was true then, it's true now.....

2007/08/09/10/11 History in the making
198

Kimg Arthur,

05/09/2008 20:32:15
LOL!!!!!

Guenevere - have you not heard about the teaching assistant in Stockton who is a dirty racist with poo filled pants? ~She regularly abuses Scots because she is a narrow minded runt.

A law suit, you say? Is a law suit one made by Ede and Ravenscroft? Bunch of pompous savile rowers - always preferred Welsh and Jefferies myself.

"guenevere" - you are a nasty individual with an empty life. Sue me if this isn't true. LOL!!!
199

Kimg Arthur,

05/09/2008 20:35:01
Oh, and I think you meant, now "hear" this!!!! LOL - a teaching assistant without the ability to unravel the darkest mysteries of "there, their and they're"

LOL - what a GOMPER!!!!
200

Skatedad,

05/09/2008 22:43:12

We are all DOOMED!!
201

Skatedad,

05/09/2008 22:44:45
Let's skate.

 

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