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Big names join fight for HBOS

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Published Date: 17 October 2008
THE tycoon Sir Tom Farmer is at the head of a growing list of senior business figures demanding a rethink of the HBOS takeover, The Scotsman can reveal.
Figures from industries including construction, retail, property and tourism are all concerned the controversial deal could be against the long-term interests of the taxpayer. They are deeply worried it could prove contrary to Scotland's future economic success and damage its corporate environment and retail banking and mortgage sectors.

Sir Tom and his contemporaries are the first to sign an open letter being sent to political leaders throughout Scotland and the UK – including Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, and Alex Salmond, the First Minister. In it, they call for a "rapid reappraisal by a suitably qualified body, such as the Competition Commission, to fully judge if public interest is being best served" by the Lloyds TSB takeover.

They back The Scotsman's call for answers to the questions it believes to be integral to the deal. The newspaper has launched a drive to determine whether the takeover is still in the best interests of the country, its taxpayers and its businesses.

The letter was penned by Dan Macdonald, chief executive of Macdonald Estates and chairman of the Scottish Property Federation, and co-organised by Mark Shaw, chief executive of Hazledene Group.

It comes as the role of the HBOS's non-executive directors was brought into question, with calls for them to put both options – staying independent or accepting the takeover – to the bank's 2.1 million shareholders.

Mr Shaw told The Scotsman: "Signatories were still coming forward last night, and we confidently expect to add considerably more over the weekend. We hope the initial group of supporters will indicate the breadth and range of concern among Scottish business and that even more will come forward."

However, the House of Lords agreed yesterday the government could waive competition law to let the deal through. An order amending the Enterprise Act 2002 allows Westminster to take steps in the interest of "maintaining the stability of the UK financial system".

It is set to be agreed by a Commons select committee on Monday, giving Lord Mandelson, the Business Secretary, the power to give the green light to the deal.

Alistair Carmichael, MP, the Liberal Democrats' Scottish spokesman, has challenged Mr Salmond to demonstrate his support for HBOS remaining an independent bank by signing a Commons motion on the issue.

He has tabled an Early Day Motion calling for government support to enable the bank to stay independent, now that the UK Bank Reconstruction Fund has made this a realistic alternative.

At the SNP conference, the Nationalists said "major questions" remain to be asked about the planned merger, including whether the bail-out announced as part of the £50 billion banking sector rescue package depended on the deal going ahead.

Meanwhile, share prices took another battering yesterday, with the FTSE 100 tumbling to a fresh five-year low as recession fears continued to shake volatile global markets.

It shed more than 5 per cent – wiping a further £52 billion from blue-chip stocks – to finish down 218.2 at 3861.4, its lowest close since April 2003.

The banking sector was experiencing mixed fortunes in the wake of the government's rescue plan. HBOS – seen as the weakest of the trio to be bailed out – was down 2 per cent, while Lloyds TSB and Royal Bank of Scotland were virtually unchanged.

The banks' shares outperformed the wider market, amid hopes the bail-out scheme could be reworked slightly to allow dividend payments to investors.

The new voices signing up to the letter join those of Jim Spowart, the creator of Intelligent Finance; Sir Donald MacKay, the chairman of the Scottish Mortgage Trust; and David Alexander, the owner of property firm DJ Alexander.

Several commentators believe that, had a proposal from the government been on the table before the deal, HBOS would have been able to survive alone.

The letter states: "We are today calling for due consideration to be given as to whether or not the overwhelming imperative still exists to waive competition law to allow this takeover to proceed without due process. There are potentially difficult economic times approaching, and this proposal will inevitably create job losses, not just in Scotland but across the UK. It will also potentially put in place non-competitive arrangements which may prejudice the longer-term interests of the taxpaying public – the very people who are providing support for the banking system."

It goes on: "In these fast-moving economic times, decisions have to be made in light of the best information available at the time. In that respect, we do not question the decisions made previously.

"However, we must also be able to adapt, and to take new decisions if this information changes, as it has undoubtedly done over the last few days.

"Given the rapid agreement of the takeover proposal, we consider it reasonable to constitute an equally rapid appraisal by a suitably qualified body, such as the Competition Commission, to fully judge if public interest is being best served, given the current circumstances – in particular the fact that both Lloyds TSB and Halifax Bank of Scotland are now participants in the government support scheme in their own right."

Mr Macdonald said: "I strongly believe that shareholders should be presented with two options and allowed to choose between them."

Mr Spowart called on the HBOS's non-executive directors to make a stand.

He told The Scotsman: "The HBOS non-executives have a fiduciary duty to their shareholders in this matter. Were they consulted over the revised terms of the takeover? And have they given their approval?"

He said he would like to see the non-executives help to ensure that balanced arguments for staying independent and for agreeing to the bid were put before shareholders.


Those who signed the letter...

Brian Stewart
Former chief executive, RMJM, the Scottish architecture firm which was part of the group which designed the Scottish Parliament building.

Fiona Morton
Managing Partner, Ryden, one of the largest independent firms of commercial property consultants operating in Scotland.

Alan Macdonald
Managing director, Dawn Construction, the largest independent property and construction group operating in Scotland.

Colin Cumberland
Managing director, Applecross, property developer with major interests in Edinburgh and Glasgow.

Sir Tom Farmer
Founder Kwikfit, entrepreneur and philanthropist.

Michael Laing
Managing director, Laing the Jewellers, one of Edinburgh's oldest jewellery firms, founded in 1840.

Malcolm Fraser
Malcolm Fraser Architects is winner of numerous awards including those for Dance Base and the Scottish Poetry Library.

Harvey Aberdein
Managing partner, Aberdein, Considine & Company, one of Scotland's leading solicitors and estate agents.

Others opposed to plan…

Other signatories to the letter:


Donald Macdonald, executive chairman, Macdonald Hotels

Bob Fisher, managing director, Colliers

Dan MacDonald, chief executive, MacDonald Estates

Mark Shaw, chief executive, Hazledene Group

David MacLeod, managing director, Rybka

Those who have previously questioned the takeover:

Hector Sants, chief executive, FSA

Alex von Ungern-Sternberg, financier

Sir Donald Mackay, chairman of the Scottish Mortgage Trust

JP Morgan, Société Générale

David Alexander, owner DJ Alexander

Jim Spowart, creator Intelligent Finance

Page 1 of 1

 
1

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 00:52:07

Big names maybe, but only pawns to the big players, who will have already made the decision of the fate of HBOS, a decision that wont be changed by any tantrums from, "Big Names".
2

EPS,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 01:07:48
#1 I fear you're right. Alea iacta est.
3

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 01:12:33

EPS ~2,

"The die is cast"

It certainly IS!
4

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 01:21:50

bring them on ~4,

Yes maybe before my time, but the 'Punch and Judy' show goes on and on! :))
5

Jock MacSprog,

17/10/2008 01:40:55
all these so called big names combined couldnt come up with 1/10000th of the money to make a rival bid for HBOS. They should either put up or shut up as its an embarassment when these small time C list tycoons try to pretend they are global players.
6

Jock MacSprog,

17/10/2008 01:44:26
so DJ Alexander a guy who runs a flat letting agency in Edinburgh is a "big name" in the context of scottish businessmen ? What an embarassment. If this is the best we have to offer, a guy whos business turns over a few hundred thousands pounds a year letting flats, we really are in a sorry state. Are we that desperate grasping for so called big names that we need to stoop to this level ?
7

Andrew D,

bne 17/10/2008 01:45:15
It's amazing that somehow the parties other than SNP have turned this into a Salmond-supports-the-takeover type nudge is as good as a wink situation. And the press are happy to go along with the idiocy.
8

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 01:54:36

bring them on ~7,

Good question!

My DYW and I live in a poor area, not out of choice, but from circumstances, most don't work, some single mothers, the usual drug element, you now know the sketch.

Some do work like us and try to make a honest living, but one wonders if its worth it!

Energy and food prices, put a squeeze on people like my DYW and I,

BANKS!,..'GLORY BE TO GOD'!! HAVE HAD THEIR, Comeupence!

GREED, PURE, GREED, HAVE BROUHGT THEM DOWN!

A £40.00 Charge for each penny overdrawn, even by only one second, had to END!!

GLORY BE TO GOD FOR THE DOWNFALL OF OUR BANKS!!, is what I say!

Being in a poor area, most will survive and deal with life as it changes, as we do, never rich and fight to survive each day, that's life for many, but survive we do.

Yes I have had in my time, 'Good Wealth' and lived in posh parts of Edinburgh, sending my daughters to private school etc,

Poor I maybe now, but appreciation of life, has NO Price, I am privileged to have witnessed both.

Gorgie was my birth place, my affections still hold, as does my wife, who went to Tynecastle School.
9

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 02:20:07
Brilliant as I think Salmond and his Government is I feel it's in danger of being overtaken by events re the HBOS take over.

Salmond, whilst maintaining his stance of getting the best out of the Lloyds/TSB deal, must at least now begin asking the question as to whether it is still necessary for the deal to go through.

At the moment he 'appears' to be arguing AGAINST an independent HBOS when in reality he would like nothing more than to see The Bank completely independent once again and as we see in this article, the Scotsman's campaign to save The Bank is gathering support.

Time to widen your language Alex to ensure you let people see that your thinking embraces all possible moves.
10

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 02:20:07
Brilliant as I think Salmond and his Government is I feel it's in danger of being overtaken by events re the HBOS take over.

Salmond, whilst maintaining his stance of getting the best out of the Lloyds/TSB deal, must at least now begin asking the question as to whether it is still necessary for the deal to go through.

At the moment he 'appears' to be arguing AGAINST an independent HBOS when in reality he would like nothing more than to see The Bank completely independent once again and as we see in this article, the Scotsman's campaign to save The Bank is gathering support.

Time to widen your language Alex to ensure you let people see that your thinking embraces all possible moves.
11

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 02:27:10

Brian Hill ~14/15,

Hold! subject matter similar to one I posted in response to,..bring them on @#4 various, I will paste it in my next post,
12

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 02:30:03




"Maybe, just Maybe, Scotland would be a Truly, Identity of Force and a Place to be proud of, and one to be reckoned with, if,.."Kong- Salmond" had to 'Slum-it' for a few weeks,?"


13

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 02:42:00



And Remember,..'Long-time-Dead'!

This will be all,..'hearsay' for our future generations, appreciate the life you have been given and the ones you Love, and NOT Money!


14

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 17/10/2008 03:28:00
"Figures from industries including construction, retail, property and tourism are all concerned the controversial deal could be against the long-term interests of the taxpayer. They are deeply worried it could prove contrary to Scotland's future economic success and damage its corporate environment and retail banking and mortgage sectors"

Big Gordon will preserve the union AT ANY COST
15

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 17/10/2008 03:31:52
Other signatories to the letter:

JP Morgan, Société Générale


A pair of nutty nats picking fights with Westminister
16

Guga II,

Rockall 17/10/2008 05:07:17
What is this, a Unionist talk fest, and/or a gathering of New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party gang bangers?

Maggie Broon (of the "listening government") is hell bent on selling out Scotland and the Scottish people. He wants to white ant the Scottish economy, in line with his statement that he will do anything to keep his archaic and anachronistic Union.

Maggie Broon is a lying, hypocritical charlatan who has shewn that he and his Stalinist, totalitarian, control freak Party will do anything to keep the Butcher's Apron flying high, and will hang on to Scotland for as long as it can to subsidise England, and keep him in power.

This is the man who is responsible for the current financial fiasco, as he has mismanaged the economy over the past eleven years. This is the man who is responsible for the recession we are now beginning to experience, and for the large, and increasing unemployment, and the increasing number of repossessions now happening. This is also the man who, because of his large overseas borrowings, has put the country further into debt; a debt that we will be paying for over the next generation.

If this Quisling, Toom Tabard had any honesty, he would call a general election right now, and let the people express their opinion of his economic mismanagement.
17

Glasgow Expat,

Proud Short Seller 17/10/2008 06:11:59
Salmond et al should realise that the real spivs in this debacle are HBOS and RBS themselves. Capital "light" models using special purpose vehicles (or SPiV's??) are the root cause of the mess and so the banks deserve all they get. Who cares who owns them as long as the (non executive and managerial) jobs are preserved as much as possible.
18

donald,

glasgow 17/10/2008 06:17:22
What do Iain Grey and Lilly Savage OBE think about that then?
19

Nevsky,

Moscow 17/10/2008 06:41:58
24 bring them on#

All the way downhill to him being booted out of office while the taxpayer will of course be paying for years to come.

Nice to see Alex, the English media and even David Cameron coming out now and laying the blame exactly where it should be, with the failed and nail-biting and inadequate and socially mal-adjusted Brown!

Brown will be massacred over the next few weeks, can't wait!
20

The Glasgow Ranger,

Glasgow 17/10/2008 08:08:22
Big names,big egos.They`ll only be in it to line their own pockets.Tom Farmer?,yesterdays` hero.
21

Olicana,

edinburgh 17/10/2008 08:21:34
Go on then "big names". Set up a consortium and bid for Bank of Scotland. Huffing and puffing about the inequity of it does nothing for any of us.

BofS was no longer independent after the merger with Halifax. After that the office on the Mound was just a sop.

So come on you entrepeneurial wealthy Scots, show us what you're really made of instead of just being seen to say the "right thing".
22

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 17/10/2008 08:41:12
Nice to see the same Unionists spouting their bile. Love London and the London Controlled New Labour Party, more than they care for their own kind and Nation.

They are either allowed at the Trough for now as a reward, or they are simply silly little British Nationalist Members who have Union Jacks tattood to their erkies.
23

Dissector,

Stirling 17/10/2008 08:43:53
#30 - absolutely - this is about delevery and action not political (not parliamentary)point scoring. The reality is that HBOS needed (and probably still does) £100Bn to refinance is mortgage book over 6 months - if Messrs Farmer et al have that sort of money, they should put it where their collective mouths are.
24

Just_Me,

Moray 17/10/2008 08:52:29
It was always suspiscious that within 24hrs of HBOS problems being made public not only had Loyds prepared an offer but the competition commision had probably been instructed by Mr Brown to allow the deal (which incidentaly would have been an ilegal deal the day before).

Do you really think they all managed to sort this in one day? More like over the previous 6 months to a year at minimum.

So Scotlands last semi independant bank is effectively up for nationalisation with a possibility of huge job losses never mind the possibility that it may also effectively be the end of Scottish bank notes and Brown makes a statement that this great nationalisation is great for the union and only possible in our union.

This Brown fellow just doesnt seem to clever to me.

I think the real question that people hear in scotland is, "Would we be in this mess without the union?" and whats to stop any independant country just printing an extra 50 billion pounds like brown proposes?

What he is using as an argument for the union here I think is more likely to be seen as an argument for independance is it not?
25

john z,

edinburgh 17/10/2008 08:54:44
You know whatever your political point of view, you can't help thinking now that as the UK economy is suffering harder than the likes of Spain (which only started emerging from a fascist dictatorship in 1976), or France or Italy you need to question those at the helm for the last eleven years.

No amount of stage managed international photo opportunities can hide the fact, that Gordon Brown has been at the helm for eleven years, and the economy is in a mess. Inflation up, house prices down, bankcruptcies up, unemployment rising, heating oil up, domestic electricity up. People in Scotland will die this winter, due to their complete inability to pay for heating. For a country that produces as much oil as Kuwait, that is just obscene.

It's starting to get very cold, and people especially in the highlands are having to choose; HEATING OIL or FOOD.

The writing has been on the wall for many years, that the fake growth from debt in the uk economy was unsustainable. Brown chose not to bite the bullet when it needed to be done (around eight years ago). Whatever happened to prudence???

Instead, he let the situation run and run, and we now have the utter obscenity of Brown offering banks in London more money in one week, than the entire annual total Scottish budget of 33 billion

Brown is not the saviour of the economy, rather he is the master of its demise.

He may have been good many years ago, but he is not any good now. Time for Brown to go.
26

Edward,

17/10/2008 08:56:24
Interestingly what is not mentioned is that Lord Turner, Chairman of the FSA, now states that HBOS actually have enough capial to survive on there own!
So why the push by Brown to have it taken over?, whats the haste?
27

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 17/10/2008 08:57:43
Funny how these creatures are now appearing from under the woodwork ...
28

Nevsky,

Moscow 17/10/2008 09:08:00
36 Merchant#

Yes and whereas they are trying to do something constructive; you aren't.

Just the usual sniping at anything that goes against the Westminster line or dares to take a stand for anything Scottish from you and your cringing ilk.

Back to you bitter unionist lair and snuggle up for more election defeat at the hands of the SNP!

29

Geo_1875,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 09:10:50
Bring Them On

Did Alex Salmond bully you at school? You really have a hard time accepting him as First Minister of Scotland. Get a grip of yourself (or maybe stop getting a grip of yourself) and accept that Scotland has rejected "Prudence" Brown-trousers and his band of self serving sleaze monkeys.

And your bigotted rantings on behalf of the english half of the old form are just as pathetic as your ramblings on politics/finance/anything else that gets a grip of you.
30

Courtney,

East Molesey 17/10/2008 09:16:23
The Big Names are just a shower of opportunistic dreamers!
31

Nevsky,

Moscow 17/10/2008 09:24:11
40 Court#

But have achieved probably more in each of their little fingers than you ever will!
32

,

17/10/2008 09:33:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
33

Alan B,

17/10/2008 09:36:34
Businesses in Scotland round on Brown becuase of his bumbling economic management and we get the ultra unionists blaming Salmond. Going by some of the moronic posts you would think Salmond is responsible for Browns mismanagement of the economy for the last decade.
34

Arfur,

17/10/2008 09:56:52
I am just baffled that there are still Labour supporters out there in Scotland, I mean this party has done the following:

controlled the economy into this mess,
took us into an illegal war,
inflation is up under their guidance,
bankruptcies up under their guidance,
apposed the council tax freeze,
unemployment raising,
apposed the prescription charges reduction,
heating oil up,
got rid of the Scottish regiments,
ignored advice from Salmond regarding short selling 2 weeks before the mess created by just that,
electricity up,
Scrued Scottish banks to save the union,
.
.
.
.
the list goes on and on.

These labour supports must have the combined IQ of a biscuit and when you see posts from the likes of Bring It On and Charles Linskaill that almost confirms that
35

JoeMiddleton,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 10:16:23
Looks like the first twenty two early morning posts on this are by different shades of unionist, 'let's try and dodge the issue' campaigning.

The SNP have made it clear throughout that their preferred option is for HBOS to continue as an independent entity. However Alex Salmond has been trying to get the best deal for scotland if the proposed takeover happens, that's what anyone would expect him to do. However his official spokesman has already recently stated the blatantly obvious that the SNP's preference is still for HBOS to remain independent.

Unlike Britgov the Scottish Government has no vested interest in HBOS being neutured and it's operations moved to London!

Clearly the business community is coming on board to that position and no doubt a few unionists are worried that their 'cunning plan' to get HBOS swallowed by Lloyds TSB and an independent Scottish institution humbled is falling to bits.

Let's be absolutely clear about this. If Lloyds TSB needs a 'banking bail out' just like HBOS there is no way that they can afford to buy HBOS at this time.

If the Government is taking share in HBOS and RBOS it must guarantee that both banks will continue to be controlled in Scotland.

The case for takeover of HBOS which was always weak is now completely hollow and it is extremely important that it does not happen.

Congrats to the Scotsman for once btw for taking the right angle on this and campaigning against the merger, maybe this could be the beginning of a new phase for the paper, who knows.
36

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/10/2008 10:22:04
Nice to see the Scotsman and the other leading Scots coming on-side with Alex Salmond's thinking.

As for the "high fives" Unionist posters on here, I have nothing but contempt for their cringeworthiness.
37

Steve 'The Nugget' Davis,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 10:24:27
#45 - Excellent spelling and grammar. Do you really think it is wise for you to be suggesting that other posters have low IQs?
38

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/10/2008 10:26:54
The run up to Glenrothes over the next three weeks is going to be interesting and the timing could not be better.

Gordon "Superman" Brown has had his two days in the spotlight where he was happy to portray himself as the saviour of the planet. Now that his plans appear not to have solved the crisis and he unwisely called off the truces in Westminster and Holyrood, he will be held to account.

Held to account for putting his own and the Labour party's needs ahead of the people of Scotland. He will pay a huge price for this in the very near future.
39

My dad calls another man Sonny,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 10:51:16
Spare us the patter about loving our nation, rescuing our bank etc.
The system doesn't distinguish between nationalities, it's a global economic system, ergo the entire world is now trying to shore up the perception that only a capitalist society can offer us a decent life.
It's sad to see people - many of whom are sensible in every way - troubling themselves about a mad system which delivers this madness!
40

Ewan M,

17/10/2008 11:03:36
#23 Guga II - talking of ecconomic mismanagement hows the SNP fiscal budget for manifesto commitments such as student loans, nursery care, 1000 NEW police or in the SNP world recruit, retain and redploy(they made that clear in their manifesto).

I really don't think the Pie Man can talk about mismanagement. The mans ego is the size of his belly.
41

camster,

Glasgow 17/10/2008 11:07:59
Freescale just announced it was closing down its manufacturing with the loss of 800 real Scottish jobs and all the Scotsman is worried about are a bunch of overpaid arrogant Edinburgh bankers who have gambled and lost our money on the USA financial casino. When the business I worked for was struggling we got little support from HBOS. In fact they questioned why we wanted to manufacture things in Scotland!
42

Ewan M,

17/10/2008 11:08:12
#45 I'm sure you congratualted The Tories and Labour for 16 years of unitnerupted growth...didn't think so.

Anyone who thinks Scotland would be in a better position with the SNP is wired to the moon. As Brown is invited to every world meeting to put the rest of the UK's voice forward Salmond would be at home eating a pie praying someone would call him to ask what he thought. I don't think anyone would call...........
43

New Town Resident,

17/10/2008 11:14:08
I agree with the article that the Lloyds deal should no go ahead on competition grounds.

However the article completely misses the main point becauses it assumes an independent HBOS (or rather BOS?) can be recapitalised, and doesn't address the preference shares issue.

However the actual problem with the current deal is that it may crater as a result EU condition on the preference shares. This is the only thing that will put a spoke in the government's plan because they seem confident of the Lloyd's shareholders (presumably they have the promises?)

If the EU doesn't give way on its preference shares dictat, and the LLoyds deal craters, then I think HBOS or BOS will end up as another NR because there is no way it can be recapitalised. So it would then be severely constrained by competition rules like NR.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't.
44

Embra Don,

17/10/2008 11:18:35
Some of the contributors above must have looked at the wrong paper - Charles and BTO - stick to DC Thomson or grow up. Personal, playground insults are neither big or funny.
On a more serious note - a judicial review of the way the competition commission was circumvented is in order here.
LTSB claim that the merger discussions had been going on for 2 years. Why - when it would certainly have been vetoed? Why was it not announced to the stockmarket?
45

Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston S Mare 17/10/2008 11:26:19
Bring it on 12# how right you are to single out Pat Nevin. He represents everything good in a man . When he played for the Mighty Tranmere Rovers we adored him. I dont know if he holds any nationalist views, but he is remembered in England for his dignity , kindness, and consideration for others.Had he not been a gifted footballer,he would still be remembered as a great ambassador for Scotland, what a man.
46

Ewan M,

17/10/2008 11:33:19
ppink rumbled, what with your arc of insolvency? Has Salmond mentoned Iceland recently?
47

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 17/10/2008 11:33:25
#32 Disector

" The reality is that HBOS needed (and probably still does) £100Bn to refinance is mortgage book over 6 months -"

The recapitalization and takeover does not address this at all. It simply raises Tier 1 capital to meet the higher requirements imposed by the Government.

They will probably not be able to just role this over. It will require a culling of Mortgages that look like they may be underwater in the future. Anything with a LTV below 80% will have to be called in.

By culling the mortgage book in this fashion you will negate a lot of the need for additional capital. This really could be done by the shareholders if it became evident that management was committed to shrinking the mortgage book and calling in the weak mortgages.
48

Dr. James Wilkie,

Vienna 17/10/2008 11:35:45
Gordon Brown has proved to be a weakling. Like his signing of the EU Lisbon treaty against his own convictions, he has shown himself to be a leaf in the wind of forces over which he has no control.

I make no pretensions to being expert in high finance, having been merely on its fringes in the course of my professional work, but I must say that this whole business obviously stinks to high heaven. Why has short selling been banned only now, and not years or decades ago? Has its immorality been accepted as normal? How many other practices in the finance world are on the same moral plane? This is something that affects us all and needs much closer regulation.

One of these days the traditionally long-suffering Scots are going to rise an shake off the lot - Labour Party, London rule and all - like a dog shaking water off its back. I think that date is now rapidly approaching, and I am waiting with close interest to see what is going to happen in Glenrothes.
49

Curlypaws,

Scotland 17/10/2008 11:38:49
Those keen to see “fat cats” punished forget that most of HBOS’s Scottish staff are ordinary people on low salaries (many of whom have lost their savings due to the fall in the HBOS share price). They are the ones who will suffer in any takeover of HBOS by Lloyds TSB.

It is indeed strange that Westminster and HBOS management are so keen to push through a deal that reduces competition and puts a large number of people out of work, when we are also told by the same people that HBOS is perfectly capable of continuing as an independent bank.

I can only congratulate the signatories of the letter for being willing to stand up and urge that some sensible consideration is given to this whole deal. Unfortunately big shareholders such as Standard Life will ultimately decide what happens and they may be working to a quite different agenda.
50

Green,

17/10/2008 11:41:52
DJ Alexander don't even make money from what I've seen on their 'sound investments' round here. They were overinvesting in the property market last year.
51

The Strategist,

17/10/2008 11:43:36
OK people ... Read this and then tell me why it's important to keep HBOS going. Neither HBOS or RBS despite their albeit previous massive profits were prepared to help when it came to start-ups or spin-outs..

http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/891345
52

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 17/10/2008 11:55:37
#53EwanM

'I'm sure you congratualted The Tories and Labour for 16 years of unitnerupted growth...didn't think so"

And why would you, this crisis has made completely obvious that this "Economic Miracle" has been a complete illusion.

If you factor in the growth of the public sector which now accounts for 50% of GDP and also take in account the growth in population from high levels of immigration you will find that the UK has not really grown at all since 2001.

In fact your economic policies are as unsustainable as the Banks lending practices. They have both been built on borrowed money that now must be paid back.

This economy has only been kept from contracting by an unsustainable housing boom which has seen External Debt Rise $10.3 Trillion. You are now one of the most endebted countries in the World.

53

Ewan Oosami,

Halifax 17/10/2008 11:58:18
HBOS should not be allowed to merge with LTSB, they should sack (without compensation) those at board level who allowed this to happen. The ideal solution is that the Bank of Scotland should be separated and allowed to continue on it's own as Scotlands best bank
54

Finlang,

Switzerland 17/10/2008 12:10:42
#38 Geo_1875,Edinburgh

You are the latest in a recent growing line to boot into touch the Boring Tendentious Offal-merchant. He evidently has 24 hours a day in which to snipe stupidly from the sidelines with his tiresome one-liners. Deluded comedian.

He (and his various alter egos/aliases) regularly spoils the football forums with pointless diversionary quick quips, serving only to feed an already swollen ego. While all too ready to dish out gratuitous verbal ârse-kicking, he's not too good at receiving in kind (see his peevish response @39).

55

Osama Bin Liner,

edinburgh 17/10/2008 12:26:20
It's good to get intellectual giants like Jim Spowart weighing in on the argument. ;-)
56

1stEdinburgh,

Scotland 17/10/2008 12:39:27
The argument for HBOS to remain independent is that it should be for the benefit of the whole of the UK and not just Scotland. HBOS is the largest mortgage provider with 3 times the share of Lloyds TSB and has a better capitalisation than them. If Lloyds TSB is so efficient and well-run, why do they need £ 7 bn of tax payers money? Frankly, I am disappointed by the SNP position, ie siting on the fence rather than tabling a motion at both the UK and Scottish parliaments for continued independence for HBOS and asking the Conservatives, Liberals and Scottish Labour MPs/MSPs for their support. 40000 jobs at stake (North and South of the border) surely are worth a try, so come on Mr Salmond, show us some leadership!
PS Well done The Scotsman for supporting this.
57

Shave,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 12:41:13
#63 The Strategist
"tell me why it's important to keep HBOS going"

Easy. Because they are among the largest private sector employers in Scotland, and Scotland particularly needs private sector jobs.
58

Micropacer,

17/10/2008 13:13:58
Posters like Bring it on - do you think before you type? Do you just think everything Salmon likes you have to instantly dislike?

This makes any - and I mean any opinion you have not worth reading and irrelevant.

Why bother posting your infantile rubbish? No one cares.

Anyway this deal makes no sense to anyone except LTSB. In the short term the LTSB shareholders lose out but in the long term they and LTSB get a complete and utter bargain!

HBOS dont need this deal. The HBOS share price has been stubbornly low since this deal was proposed which is suspicous. Although its not linked to the LTSB price there has been something fishy about this entire thing.

I post and read on quite a few share trading forums and lots of people think Brown is behind this entire thing - most want the deal to fail as it makes no sense in the short term it going ahead.

So what is GB up to?
59

thistle do,

here n'there 17/10/2008 13:15:02
Keep Hbos independant,,,, if it's OK with the good folks of Halifax. This part seems to be forgotten.
It really doesn't matter that Wee Eck has a national bank in today's financial world. If he was really confident of Scotland's future then let all banks bid for his government's business.

By the way, my money is now with a stronger bank, not scottish but what the hell.
60

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 13:23:59
#46 JoeMiddleton says:
"Looks like the first twenty two early morning posts on this are by different shades of unionist, 'let's try and dodge the issue' campaigning."

I've been called many things in my day (many of them true)but I have NEVER been called a unionist.
Suggest you re-read my post 14 or 15.

I am highly amused as I eat, breath and sleep INDEPENDENCE and have done ever since the days I chewed my pencil to pieces in tearful anger as we read about the Highland Clearances (Primary 3 or 4 I think).
61

Mcsnagpile,

17/10/2008 13:45:48
Sir Farmer is right nothing that a new exhaust and a few retreads couldn’t put right. Where was everybody when the HBOS script shares were issued and their vitals on the barbie??--my money stayed in the HBOS deposit.
62

noswod,

Honestas 17/10/2008 13:50:22
None of the businessmen (note men) have any real international credibility or real wealth power or influence and illustrate the problem in Sctland is that beyond the Public sector and the banks and odd insurance company there is no economy but a wee bit o' farming. Since the war the Scottish economic base has been garrotted by various waves or economic invaders or stupid London based civil servents who have stripped it bear. The oil has all been hocked. The HBOS /TSB saga is a final installment in this process and the result of political expediency like when the bid for RBS comes in. Slamond and all the politicians should realise this the Scottish economy is exceptionally fragile weak and totally dependent on UK money infusions and play their game from a position of weakness and crisis and potential collapse. Thats how serious it is. Romanticism aboot a free Society of the covenanters is madness
63

Nevsky,

Moscow 17/10/2008 13:58:43
53 Ewen#

'As Brown is invited to every world meeting to put the rest of the UK's voice forward Salmond would be at home eating a pie'

I'm afarad not; Brown has been snubbed by Bush who has invited Merkel and Sarkozy to a summit but not Brown..oops!

Incidentally, Brown will attend a charity fundraiser instead!
64

Ewan M,

17/10/2008 14:10:23
And Mr salmond would have been invited anywhere????Don't think so. Have you read anyting to day about Salmond's 'light touch' regualtion speech for the finacial sector in an Independent Scotland from 2007!!!!Up there with the Iceland speech.
65

Ewan M,

17/10/2008 14:11:39
Nevsky, As for being snubbed he was there three days before them for a PERSONAL meeting. !!!!!!!!!!!
66

,

17/10/2008 15:14:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
67

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 15:28:00

#80,

Hoy!, less of the cheek please :)
68

Shave,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 15:30:32
#79 sm753 - "Well that's not going to achieved, is it?"

That remains to be seen. Certainly in the short/medium term it would be more apt to call it a public/private/partnership business but the stated intention is to return it to full private ownership.
69

Cpt Incredible,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 15:46:54
Bring them on is just a retarded silly wee boy,who doesn't know anything about politics.His reason for supporting the union is based purely on the fact that he thinks that's what bigoted Rangers supporters are supposed to do.
70

Marian,

17/10/2008 16:18:53
Quoted from the Daily Mail and Bloomberg on 15 October 2008:-

HEADLINE: “Brown 'begged to join euro'

The Luxembourg Legend that is Jean-Claude Juncker has offered an intriguing analysis of the financial bail-out in an interview with the Rheinischer Merkur, which we might have missed had it not been for the eagle eyes of Bloomberg:

Oct. 15 (Bloomberg) -- Luxembourg Finance Minister Jean-Claude Juncker told German newspaper Rheinischer Merkur the U.K. will consider adopting the euro once the credit crisis abates. ``The British prime minister had to beg to be let into the room in which the euro group was meeting,'' Juncker told the newspaper in an interview published today. ``I'm sure that when the storm is over, the British will think about whether they shouldn't become an equal in all decision-making bodies.''”
71

The Strategist,

17/10/2008 16:32:45
#70

Yes there's the jobs argument but if that's the extent of the benefit that HBOS brings to Scotland then we'd be better off starting up a new mutually owned bank and just transferring the jobs..

Only £2m being invested in Scottish start-ups is truly pathetic.. We can't go on like this.
72

Martyk,

17/10/2008 17:00:33
Yes I heard Brown had to plead ( not beg) to be allowed into the eurozone meeting and from a different source. Odd. While I regard it as a national tragedy and humiliation what has happened to HBOS , I agree with 79 that the maths just dont add up for HBOS to remain independent. Folk seem to forget that HBOS would not have survived one more day without the bailout. If the takeover were abandoned and the britgov billions were not on the table then HBOS would immediately collapse. I shant even bother debating the issue. Tragically for Scotland , were the britgov billions not on the table for RBS then they too would immediately collapse. What a calamity that it should come to this. BTW I would keep my eye on Standard Life. They have taken a battering lately. As the only independent Scots insurance company if we lose them then we have no Scots financial sector left. Oh. Sorry. Forgot Dunfermline Building Society.
73

Between the lines,

Scotland 17/10/2008 17:42:15
#88 Martyk, your attempt at mischief-making re Standard Life is rather pathetic. Yes, Standard has lost around 15% of its value this week but relative to losses at other insurers over the same period; e.g. Pru -40%, L&G -30%, Aviva -25%, it is in a very strong position due to its robust Business model. Perhaps you should get a grasp on a subject before you try and comment on it??
74

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/10/2008 17:52:49
79, Smee. Where are you? I need someone to do the maths.

Over the last nine months shares in HBOS were changing hands at up to 400 million at a time. Today, a total of just over 29 million have been traded. During that period only 2 significant deals took place. One for 3 million at around 1015, which dropped the share value by 5 pence and the other at 1630 for 5 million, which raised the value by about 3 pence.

The other deals were bubbling around all day at 300 - 500 thousand.

The point here being that if all the big shareholders have sold then there is scope for small shareholders to reinvest en mass and vote en bloc.

If enough small shareholders do this then the price of the shares will increase and the government investment will drop below 70%

All I need to know is how many shares the good citizens of Scotland, Halifax and elsewhere need to buy.
75

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/10/2008 18:09:47
The other thing that could be done for the signatories to this letter to declare their shareholding in HBOS and volunteer themselves to act as proxies for private shareholders who do not normally vote and are confused by the official bumph which comes through the letterbox.

The Scotsman could offer advice on how people can buy shares (on and off line) and perhaps even orchestrate the whole shebang.

The value of your shares may go down as well as up but I doubt very much a 5 year savings plan with any other kind of government guarantee would do any better.
76

Rob me blind,

Peterhead 17/10/2008 18:44:12
business cant afford to trade = bankrupt Bank cant afford to trade = someone other than bank to blame. Scottish bank cant afford to trade = a big boy did it and ran away
77

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/10/2008 18:59:29
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_cBYVnEcF6w&feature=related
78

H C Andersen,

another fairytale 17/10/2008 19:19:38
Brian Stewart is this the same person that sold Scottish And Newcastle down the river
79

Boab,

Glasgow 17/10/2008 19:57:27
I remember the day the Daily Mail reported on the Iraq Invasion ... the front page said something along the lines of, hang on, this war's all about oil! I'm getting that same feeling from the Hootsman's reportage of the HBOS fiasco; finally abandoning partisan lines in favour of reality.

#84 Happy English: Erm I've never toasted the Queen except out of irony! God bless 'er and all.
80

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/10/2008 20:24:11
96, Smee. Thank you for your wonderful insight.

Next......
81

,

17/10/2008 20:34:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
82

Sligachan,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 20:45:33
Many HBOS share holders, HBOS customers and Scots/Yorkshire people in general would like to have a voice to object to the shotgun takeover of HBOS by Lloyds TSB, forced by the government.

A broad coalition of support for keeping HBOS independent needs to be formed, between all interested groups, not just politicians and business leaders.
83

Ewen Miler,

Wilts 17/10/2008 21:11:05
Unless the "Big Guns" can't make a counter offer; I fear they'll rattle the markets and the share price of HBOS will go done. Possibly to an extent where us taxpayers will have to put-in more money.

Also if Scotland were independant: how much money could Scotland put in to stabilise HBOS and RBS? Or would we ended-up like Iceland?
84

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/10/2008 21:24:29
100, Smeetie (take it we're on farting terms now), I was looking at an analysis in my question to you about the maths.

To me, people power is what it is all about now. Given that the big boys seem to have sold their shares and HBOS has so many small, private shareholders who would rather consolidate the price of their shares than worry about dividends, then the alternative would be to buy.

The signatories to the grand letter in the article should lead by example and publish their purchases.

Others would follow. If the price starts to up and Broon has to begin begin buying on the sly to maintain his absolute power then the worst case scenario would be that the whole take-over would have to be re-negotiated.

The best case scenario would be that we find out which yes voters bought shares after the price began rising as a result of people power.

85

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/10/2008 21:35:26
I'll put it another way, Smee. Now that Broon has promised his backing, how far down do you think the share prices will be allowed to go? He has a political career to consider. And a by election to oversee in the next few weeks.

He's playing brinkmanship and it's time to call his bluff.

86

Stirling Sentinel,

Stirling aka English Voice 17/10/2008 21:37:07
It is becoming more and more likely that Labour will hang on Glenrothes although with a reduced and perhaps marginal majority.

Attendance at the Gnat conference looks pretty abysmal and shows a declining influence.

The Union seems pretty secure now and our grip of the 2 Scottish banks will certainly cement it.
87

Sligachan,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 21:38:34
SM735
Thanks for you thoughts.
If Hbos stayed independent it would need government money like Lloyds and RBS. The fact that Lloyds need government money would suggest that Lloyds is in no great shape. The only people who might gain from the merger would be Lloyd’s shareholders!

I would agree with the article, that a re-think on the takeover is required.

88

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/10/2008 21:53:01
105, Sligachan. At the moment, given the revised deal (.605 shares Lloyds to 1 HBOS) there is not a great deal of difference between the 2, depending on how much you put price over value.
89

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/10/2008 22:19:43
108, Smee. As you wish.

Must have hit a nerve with you somewhere. You appear to me as some who has vested interest in this take over.

Whether it is financial or political would be a moot point. You sound more political than financial as you can only give vague, governmental style percentages.

I reckon if you did have a financial stake in this - from an investers' point of view - you would have come up with with different responses.
90

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/10/2008 22:32:58
Don't wish to be impolite, Smee, But I have to go.

Actually, I quite enjoy it when you are sensible (yes, I know)

BTW. The reason I call you Smee is that I have numerical dyslexia and confuse certain letters with numbers - or vice versa. This was brought upon me by the time I spent in Torrance.

The registration plate on the car of a dentist was T3ETH.
91

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/10/2008 22:36:38
Or it might have been T55ETH
92

Tris,

17/10/2008 23:10:36
#4 "Farmer and Salmond on the same team. Now we really do have two "Michelin" Men (but for slightly different reasons). Salmond squealing and rattling his bones before he throws them out of the pram after the event.
When is he going to grow up? On the other hand, can he get any bigger....He was laughing so much the other day, it must have shaken the listeners to their bones."



What an interesting and intelligent post... and how it added to the discussion. Have you anything to say about HBOS?
93

,

17/10/2008 23:26:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
94

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 18/10/2008 15:04:43
It's going to be a shotgun wedding. Forget the fate of 40,000 employees and ther families. Maggie Broon needs to save face. The cash injection will be dependent on the LLOYDS-HBOS merger going ahead.

BLACKMAIL
95

Buckfastleigh,

at sea 19/10/2008 11:54:43
Banco de Santander is the best option given that the Lloydstsb will not happen and the Government will have an interest in playing politics over this.

What a pity that no one seems to remember the direct role of Broon in the cop out over joining the Euro with its clear consequences on the British (and Islandic)currencies and financial systems over the last 18 months.
96

Ewan Oosami,

21/10/2008 13:25:45
#91, I have shares in HBOS, given to me when they demutualised. They didn't cost me anything so I haven't lost any money just a bit of income. I shall be voting against the deal as most private shareholders will but we are but a small voice against the big city shareholders. I have consistently voted against the directors salaries , again it's like farting into a hurricane because they're all in it together - mutual backscratchers club.

 

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