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Battle for Glasgow East shifts to the moral high ground

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Published Date: 14 July 2008
LABOUR came under intense pressure from both the Catholic Church and the SNP on its moral and religious record yesterday as the campaign for the Glasgow East by-election intensified.
Bishop Joseph Devine, one of the most senior Catholic churchmen in Scotland, hit out at the Labour Party, accusing it of "violating moral law" and "losing ethical credibility" – after a poll gave Labour a 14-point lead in the seat, albeit with a much
narrower gap between it and the SNP than before.

Catholic leaders are furious at Labour MPs' support for the Human Fertilisation and Embryology (HFE) Bill, which will pave the way for research combining human and animal embryos, and at the party's failure to back a lower time limit for abortions.

Last week, the government postponed a parliamentary debate on the HFE bill, planned for today, amid fears it could dent the Catholic vote in Glasgow East. The bill will not complete its final stages until autumn.

Bishop Devine has written to Labour MPs, claiming that although the government had won a Commons vote on the bill in May, it had "in the process, lost its ethical credibility".

Any attempts the government may have made in keeping the issue off the agenda for the by-election campaign failed yesterday when Margaret Curran, the Labour candidate in Glasgow East, admitted that she would not only back the government line on embryology, but did not see any need to reduce the abortion time limit.

Speaking during the first televised debate between the four main candidates for the by-election, Ms Curran was asked about her stance on the HFE bill. She said: "I have followed the debate and, broadly speaking, I would vote with the government."

On abortion, she said: "As things stand at the moment, I am not persuaded that there is any need to change the current law." This was in marked contrast to her main opponent, John Mason, the SNP candidate, who expressed very strong reservations about the embryology bill and said he wanted to reduce the time limit for abortions.

Also speaking on the Politics Show Scotland debate, Mr Mason said: "I am coming from a faith community background and I am extremely unhappy about any experiments on babies or research, or anything like that."

And asked whether he wanted to reduce the time limit for abortions, he replied: "Yes."

The by-election has been seen, up until now, as a straight fight on politics between Labour and the SNP.

But Glasgow East has one of the highest Catholic populations in the country – more than a third of voters in the last census – and moral issues could play a decisive part in the poll.

Bishop Devine's warnings will probably be heeded by some voters and Mr Mason may be able to capitalise on that, given his decision to come out strongly against the embryology bill and the current abortion time limit.

A poll in the constituency found yesterday that Labour still retained a healthy lead with ten days to go until polling, but it has been eroded by the SNP.

The ICM poll revealed a 15 per cent swing from Labour to the SNP since the last election.

Labour is on 47 per cent, down 14 points from 2005, while the SNP is on 33 per cent, up 16 points. The Liberal Democrats are on 9 per cent and the Tories on 7 per cent.

TV showdown – the winners and losers

THE four main contenders for the Glasgow East by-election clashed in their first televised debate yesterday. This is how they performed:

• John Mason (SNP): Went into the debate with a reputation as the dullest candidate – something he did little to dispel. He looked nervous and slipped up once, claiming that the SNP administration at Holyrood was "a government for small people". Otherwise, he was gaffe free and got his main points across. 7/10

• Davena Rankin (Conservative): Had trouble intervening in the SNP-Labour shouting match, but when she did, she came across as competent and lucid. 7/10

• Margaret Curran (Labour): Was her usual combative, feisty self but she made one gaffe when claiming a swing of 15 per cent to the SNP was "progress". She handled the difficult questions well but should stop blethering so much and get key points across more slowly. 8/10

• Ian Robertson (Liberal Democrat): Emerged as the surprise star of the show. He was effective, forthright and intervened sharply across his opponents. A no-hoper in this by-election – one to watch for the future. 9/10





The full article contains 775 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
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14/07/2008 00:01:53
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14/07/2008 00:14:25
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Mogwai Fear Santa,

14/07/2008 00:15:02
#2

What were the odds pre-Govan 1988?

What did all the polls say 11 days before Sillars won?

Stick a grand on the SNP and see what happens to the odds. Worked for Labour last week.
10

Conan the Librarian™,

14/07/2008 00:15:19
Good morning AM2. Where have you been?

Of course, you totally miss the point about the so-called anthem.

I do not believe in a god, or a monarch.

And I am trying to stop either belief affecting me.

Vote SNP, for rational government.
11

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14/07/2008 00:15:24
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Ewan Kerr - Juans brother,

14/07/2008 00:16:10
zenophobia ..oops xenophobia....
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14/07/2008 00:16:10
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Vivas,

Edinburgh 14/07/2008 00:17:13
#7 Number 6 ... 33% of the electorate may yet feel otherwise ... at least those of the 33% who attend Mass next Sunday for their briefing about how to vote.

Touch of panic in your voice there mate ??? LOL.
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14/07/2008 00:17:34
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Ewan Kerr - Juans brother,

14/07/2008 00:18:20
"As far as I am concerned Catholics should not be allowed in government if they are going to place loyalty to their religion before their duty to constituents.

This was never more clearly demonstrated when three senior Cabinet ministers - Des Browne, the Defence Secretary, Ruth Kelly, the Transport Secretary, and Paul Murphy, the Welsh Secretary - threatened to resist the embryo research bill because of their religious beliefs.

These idiots are not there to represent themselves and their own personal views. They are there to represent the people who voted them in "



At least AM2 will probably be in agreement with Number 6
17

ThomasP,

14/07/2008 00:18:36
#1

To be quite fair, Mr Mason done the right thing to take down the English flags.

The English flag may of provoked anti-English attacks afterall.
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14/07/2008 00:18:47
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14/07/2008 00:20:47
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ThomasP,

14/07/2008 00:21:49
#19

It is called Democracy. Each individual and group are allowed their say and opinion.

Of course, Unionist have trouble understanding Democracy.
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14/07/2008 00:22:07
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ThomasP,

14/07/2008 00:24:05
#22

Considering that the MP's are voted into Parliament then the electorate should do their research about the candidates.

Since these Catholics were voted into Parliament then I would assume their constinuencies support them all the way.

If not then they should not have voted for them in the first place.
23

Ewan Kerr - Juans brother,

14/07/2008 00:27:22
AM2 - something to cheer you up, I know you predicted it , And it is from a member of an ethnic minority(A SCOT)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/14/glasgoweast.byelections
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14/07/2008 00:27:38
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Vivas,

Edinburgh 14/07/2008 00:28:51
#19 Number 6, I disagree with you on well ... everything I guess LOL ! But on church interference in politics I 100% agree with you.

Unfortunately it looks like it will play a part in this election though. To what degree I don't know but if it moved a few hundred catholic votes away from Labour, then it may yet prove to be significant. Who knows.

Since I put independence ahead of religion I will live with that possible outcome. And the put the church in it's place post-independence. Well in MY version of independence anyway :-))
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14/07/2008 00:28:53
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ThomasP,

14/07/2008 00:32:15
#26

"They should not be in Politics if they are going to let their religion dictate the way they vote."

This is your personal opinion. It is up to the individual whether or not they would like to be involved in politics that may effect how they vote in future.

It is also up to the electorate to decide whether or not they feel that this person should be allowed to stand in Parliament.

To deny a person who follows religous beleifs a chance to be involved in Parliament is to deny the people in this country to vote for someone who they can trust to represent them.

If they are comfortable voting for this person then why should you complain?
28

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 14/07/2008 00:32:59
#1 AM2

Rarely have I read such a silly post.

Your assertion re the National Anthem is laughable.
29

ThomasP,

14/07/2008 00:35:30
30 The Spook in Leith.

"This is pure rubbish, i want the SNP elected on principles not because some catholics have fallen out with labour on an ethical issue.."

Agreed.

We shall see at the next General Elections. If the SNP manage to keep the seat perhaps the people are beginning to trust the SNP afterall.
30

Traquir , Alba,

14/07/2008 00:38:24

Since a perverse poster raised the subject of the Union Flag and the Flower of Scotland on an article
addressing important moral issues, I think it
is worth point out the following :

"But some councillors in Glasgow claim the union flag has sectarian connotations in the west of Scotland, while the national anthem, God Save the Queen, is offensive to Scots."

"They want Glasgow ceremonies to feature the saltire and use the song Flower of Scotland instead."

"Councillor George Ryan is among those backing the alternative plan."

see - tinyurl.com/5hd5ec

Perhaps this is the real reason that George Ryan
was not selected as a candidate, as it would
have prevented the Unionist bigots throwing
charges of xenophobic and racism at the SNP
candidate when their own candidate holds similar
views.

Saor Alba

31

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 14/07/2008 00:38:54
I get deeply uneasy when organised religion and politics mix - it always leads to a bad outcome and an most unholy row. Those who use single religious issues in a political campaign can find them rebounding negatively in unexpected ways and from unexpected quarters.
Labour can, and must be attacked on broad moral grounds, but grounds that most of us can share, secular and religious electors alike - the deep immorality of nuclear weapons, of the Iraq war, of the obsession with the wealthy and the powerful at the inevitable expense of the poor and vulnerable, of selling honours, of buying MPs' votes on controversial bills with promises, of dismantling our ancient legal freedoms and turning Britain into a paranoid police surveillance state.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OARvE4ZzMCY
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14/07/2008 00:48:24
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ThomasP,

14/07/2008 00:53:58
#41

It is quite simple really. If you have a religous MP then the chances are they may vote on their beleifs. (Only an idiot would dismiss the thought)

If you do not like the thought of that then vote for someone else.

There is also nothing stopping Catholic MP's hiding their faith from the public then voting on their religous beleifs in future.

It is best to have them out in the open and not picked on for voting for what they thought is right.
34

Richardinho,

14/07/2008 00:57:52
'The catholic church wants to butt out. This election has nothing to do with them.'
What catholics not allowed to vote in this election are they?
35

FrancesP,

14/07/2008 01:02:01
2. Number 6 - "The bookies are seldom wrong."

Except when they said Labour would win the Dunfermline and West Fife by-election.
Except when they said the 1992 general election would result in a hung parliament.
Except when they said Alan Johnson would be elected Deputy Leader of the Labour Party.
Except when they said Barack Obama would win the New Hampshire Primary.
Except in the hours leading up to the final result of the Scottish parliament election last year, when inexplicably Labour had become strong favourites to be largest single party - even though dozens of party insiders knew perfectly well by then that the SNP were ahead in the vote counts!

I could also bore you with the innumerable occasions the bookies have called the results of reality TV phone votes completely wrong, but I'm sure you get the point. Bookies are in fact very frequently wrong.
36

Iainbroch,

Moray 14/07/2008 01:03:08
I think that stirring up the religious nuts in the West Central belt is irrsponsible politics and equally irreponsible journalism and commentary.
Are there no depths to which the Liebaah Paty and the Unionist Press and Media will not sink?
This by election has taken a dark and evil turn for the worse!
37

Richardinho,

14/07/2008 01:05:13
#42 They're probably looking at a way of including the SNP in the verse.
38

donald,

glasgow 14/07/2008 01:07:18
The offensive fourth and fifth verses of the English Jelly Bean song was only dropped from the official Anglican hymnary in the 80's. The tune was stolen from a Jacobite air.
39

Arnold Codger,

Glasgow 14/07/2008 01:19:17
The introduction of LIT is the one the best resources to tackle poverty in Scotland.
~Poverty in Scotland 2007 - Chapter 8

That is only one of the real important issues in this election that the SNP have initiated not to mention all the others.
The Scottish Media are a disgrace by trying to be religiously factious and printing repeated ant-SNP stories all this week especially.
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14/07/2008 01:48:48
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Canadian Jambo,

new brunswick 14/07/2008 01:58:56
The SNP and the Roman Catholic church? What a combo. Bishop Devine needs to be sent packing! I suppose Mr Salmond's 'empathy' with Muslim faith schools allows him to have friends in the RC church who wish to impose their views on the populace.
Did Scotland not have a reformation to rid itself of this nonsense?
42

Guga II,

Rockall 14/07/2008 02:06:39
#1 AM Squared.

Here we go again with your usual drivel. Why should any Scot support a particular foreign team? Why do you, as an Irishman, think that the Scots shouls support England?

Why should any Scot want to have anything to do with the English national anthem? Not only is it racist, but it is offensive. They may not sing the fourth verse much these days, but it is still there, and still exists. Why do you, as an Irishman, want the Scots to sing along to a song that calls for them to be crushed?

As for England being pushed in a particular school, that is a political activity. Pushing for England is exactly the same as pushing for Unionism. It is, therefore, political.

In addition, why should the man not state that he has the aim of breaking up the Union? Are you trying to deny him his rights to a particular political point of view? Remember, a lot of Scots want independence, and that means breaking up the defunct and archaic Union.

On another aspect (not directed at AM Squared),the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption party (remember, they are the ones that claimed to have an ethical foreign policy)have long been bereft of ethics and morals. The Labour Mafia was in control in Scotland for the best part of 50 years, and all they did was line their own pockets. They have always been corrupt, and they always will be corrupt.
43

Ewan Kerr - Juans brother,

14/07/2008 02:21:08
#35 -Willhwlm - I think the carstairs staff were dangerously low on meds every time AM2 saw Glasgow East and Bi election flash up on tv screen in day room.

They had decided to give him 1 hour access a day, the return of his deerstalker and pipe(unlit,health and safety)and a wee mogadoned sidekick whome he can call watson.

Peace has been restored to the ward.....
44

Ewan Kerr - Juans brother,

14/07/2008 02:36:07
I'll give it till the eve of the elction for the herald and hootsmon to run the headline "Salmond Eats a plateful of Embryos for tea SHOCKER"

45

Ewan Kerr - Juans brother,

14/07/2008 02:47:34
#57 Also forgot his lucozade. Well. He might feel peckish and need the energy oto chase a toddler for lunch or even a pensioner (watch out magrit)
46

Julian.,

edinburgh 14/07/2008 02:50:01
#55 Guga,

And since when was England a foreign country?
47

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 14/07/2008 02:52:47
I don't think Mason's "moral stance" will make a difference here. I hope he will not be elected. His conscience is representative of a minority view. I don't see why the SNP needed to go there - surely there were better candidates - and numerous platforms that are of relevance to that constituency that don't involve this abortion issue. The SNP needs broad support - pandering to religious interests is a bad way to go. It's the cup of tea test - who would you rather have a cup of tea with - Curran or Mason? Sorry guys, but after Mason's Americanesque reference to baby experiments, I'll go for Curran, no contest. The day after independence is just as important as the day before, and too many of these religious nutcases in the SNP will just screw it for everybody. If the price of independence is the church all over everything (whatever church that is) then the price is too high.
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Ewan Kerr - Juans brother,

14/07/2008 02:53:02
#59 - From the time of Scotlands creation. DUH!
49

Guga II,

Rockall 14/07/2008 02:53:14
#59 Julian.

Since always.
50

Willie Macleod,

Wick 14/07/2008 03:17:18
The past is a foreign country they do things differently there England is not foreign they are our brothers and sisters on this island.
51

Julian.,

edinburgh 14/07/2008 03:52:20
Guga/Ewan

Just a few questions to answer:-

1. So when I travel down to Newcastle I am going abroad to a foreign country??

2. If they are a foreign country why do they have (with our consent) joint control of our monetary, foreign and defence policy and, up until a few years back, pretty much everything else.

3. In vitrually every international forum, except for a few sporting exceptions, we are represented as one country...eg. The UN,G8, EU, Commonwealth etc.

As they say..if it looks, barks and sh!ts like a dog...

I know it pains you nationalists to hear this but, only if we vote for independence, England will be classed as a foreign country.
52

Willie Macleod,

Wick 14/07/2008 04:07:53
#65 Julian Well said Of course now I am non Scot for disagreeing with their idea of what I should think and believe.

I reject Patriotism and Nationalism British and Scottish
53

LEAL,

14/07/2008 04:16:37
I didnt think the debate was a shouting match,though Mrs Curran found it difficult to overcome her need to be bossy.All the candidates,when asked answered the question regarding HFE.None of them brought up the issue before being asked and none of them are making a moral campaign out of the issue.Mason strongly made the point that the vote on such matters should not be whipped.Robertson came accross well,but I got the impression he thinks independence is an irrelevance not to be debated,which flies in the face of what the population are thinking.The tory candidate seemed a wee bit to soft to be on the campaign trail.I think we would be better governed if all our politicians had her manners.Marks out of 10....I'd give them all 7.No one really shone and no one made a complete hash of it,though Mrs Curran seemed to be itching to do so.
54

Champion Haggis Slayer of Fife,

Hunting the Elusive AM2 14/07/2008 04:37:56
He has inserted one posting and instigated many responses. He answers nothing.

Who cares about this nastie beastie...ignore it
55

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 14/07/2008 04:50:53
#65 Julian

1. So when I travel down to Newcastle I am going abroad to a foreign country??

If you are coming from London your entering a foreign country "Geordieland".

2. If they are a foreign country why do they have (with our consent) joint control of our monetary, foreign and defence policy and, up until a few years back, pretty much everything else.

I would not describe it as "joint" more like total. You have just reiterated the question that most supporters of Scottish Independence have asked themselves.

3. In vitrually every international forum, except for a few sporting exceptions, we are represented as one country...eg. The UN,G8, EU, Commonwealth etc.

I know, how silly is that.

56

Pilrig.,

Livingston 14/07/2008 05:47:30
13 - flute player
57

beeree,

local 14/07/2008 05:58:54
The Divine, Devine,is hardly in a position to lecture anyone on morality. However he is put to shame by the SNP who pander to every base instinct in seeking electoral advantage.

Soutar, Firstbus, Islamic sects, Devine. They buy votes and they sell them. Is this the Scotland we want OR need?

And what is the best argument that the SNP apologists come up with - an 18th c song that applies only to rebellious Scots. Notice that word it is rebellious.
Not peaceful Scots; not loyal Scots nor faithful ones, nor devoted nor dependable etc etc.

Are the SNP capable of any rational argument?
58

Guga II,

Rockall 14/07/2008 05:59:52
#65 Julian.

That is a specious argument. You forget that Scotland is treated as a colony by the English, and exploited like a colony.

As Malcolm Rifkind stated, when he was Secretary of State for Scotland "I'm a sort of colonial governor".

The English have been foreigners since the day they came to these islands from Germany. They will always be foreigners. When we are independent, we can treat them as good(?) neighbours. In the interim, they are, and always have been, bad masters.
59

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 14/07/2008 06:01:37
The glorious fourth verse:

Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the Queen.

Kinda catchy ain't it. Or maybe Mason has a point about singing the English in-yer-face anthem in Scottish schools.
Hopefully SNP let's a "torrent rush" in East Glasgow.
60

TommyKaye,

UK 14/07/2008 06:12:10
The incumbent Labour MP has claimed 500,000 pounds in expenses -

GLASGOW EAST IS ONE OF THE POOREST AREAS IN EUROPE/THE WORLD

LIFE EXPECTANCY IS LOWER THAN MANY THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES

HELLO ? YOU WANT TO VOTE LABOUR AGAIN !

61

somerferg,

perth 14/07/2008 06:21:48

#71 - and your rational argument is what exactly - oh yes a few badly put together untrue insults blah, blah. I'll bet the monkeys with red rosettes will be calling you up soon to run their campaign in Glasgow.
62

Jimmy the Pie,

14/07/2008 06:47:59
I still find it hard to believe that 'religion' plays such an important in Scottish life.
Religion should be a personal thing, regardless of what religion.
You just need to look at the halfwits travelling all over Scotland to watch the 2 football teams that help perpetrate the divide for purely financial gain.

Most of them never go near a religious establishment or live what could be called 'religious' lives.

All quite sad really.
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14/07/2008 06:59:22
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steve 1511,

aberdeen 14/07/2008 07:04:59
lies
dishonesty
corruption
bungs
poverty
deprivation
crime
poor housing
unemployment
that is what labour has given the east end over the past 50 years,so who will vote for LIEBOUR
as for the catholic church and morals,why does papa have to go on tour to australia and othe countries to apoligies for decades of abuse by priests on kiddies
65

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14/07/2008 07:07:06
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66

The Tin Man,

14/07/2008 07:10:05
Vote SNP and get free pies.
67

The Tin Man,

14/07/2008 07:12:33
Let the smiting continue!

Vote Lib Dem!

It's time for coffee!
68

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 14/07/2008 07:19:51
#1

Seems like a perfectly reasonable position to me.
69

The Tin Man,

14/07/2008 07:21:02
Truth
honesty
scruples
wealth
comfort
safety
good housing
employment
that is what the lib dems will give the east end for the next 50 years,so who will vote for LIEBOUR
as for the catholic church and morals,why does papa have to go on tour to australia and othe countries to apoligies for decades of abuse by priests on kiddies
70

The Tin Man,

14/07/2008 07:23:33
#1

I prefer the Sex Pistols version. In the future we could replace 'the Queen' with 'Scotland'.
71

Sparky,

Hamilton 14/07/2008 07:30:13
Bishop Joseph Mugabe at it again.
72

Number 6,

Germany 14/07/2008 07:36:23
Unionistas should panic. Labour are now blowing the Catholic vote in Scotland something they have relied on in the past. Political decisions like these will at times impact on how people think about religion. Look at the unionista tirades here against the Catholic school system. Their hate/fear clouds them from the reality that EVERY Christian country has a Catholic school system. How on earth can it be "Scotland's shame".

Do the unionistas think that the Church of England school system is "England's shame" , no of course not.
Get real, oh and Labour ? think before you speak.
73

eric,

14/07/2008 07:46:20
gabba gabba hey gabba gabba hey!
74

TommyKaye,

UK 14/07/2008 07:50:01
Sometimes you just have to shake your head in disbelief. The Telegraph reports an ICM poll in Glasgow East, which puts Labour on 47% and the SNP on 33%, a massive 15 points behind. Why on earth do people in that constituency even consider continuing to vote Labour? To misquote the Life of Brian, what has Labour ever done for them? The constituency has a male life expectancy of around 64, many of the council estates are the poorest in the country. Need I go on? When Iain Duncan Smith first visited the Easterhouse estate there in 2002 someone yelled out to him: "What are you doing here, we're all Labour?" He shouted back: "Yes, and look around you. Look where it's got you!"

The Telegraph and PoliticalBetting.com both report this poll as great news for Labour. I beg to differ. It is actually rather better for the SNP than it might seem at first sight. It shows there has been a 15% swing to the SNP since 2005. They only need another 7% to win and there are still ten days to go. Since 2005 Labour's vote has gone down by a quarter and the SNP's has doubled. There's also 16% of LibDem and Tory voters for the SNP to squeeze. I suspect there will be many Tory voters in that constituency who would happily give Gordon Brown a black eye. I am not for one minute suggesting they should do anything other than vote Tory (natch), but the SNP won't be so squeamish.

Those who are as long in the tooth as me will remember the last time the SNP won a by election in Glasgow - back in 1988 when Jim Sillars won Glasgow Govan. A poll was taken the Monday before polling showing Labour on 51% and the SNP on 33%. For that reason, the SNP won't be downhearted by the ICM poll tonight, and nor should they be. By election campaigns are all about momentum, and there's no doubt that it is the SNP which has the Big Mo at the moment.
75

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14/07/2008 08:01:56
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76

Dominic, London,

14/07/2008 08:04:57
Wouldn't it be better if the Church stayed out of the political fray?
Voicing such opinions - no matter how high their morality - during an election campaign turns religion into an electoral tool.

“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”

77

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14/07/2008 08:12:14
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78

sam the god,

14/07/2008 08:15:10
Bishop Devine has a cheek to comment on moral grounds this is the man who would not let catholic children in a mixed campus school in north Lanarkshire mix also the teachers were not meant to mix either. This to me smacks of bigotry so why should he take the moral high ground?
79

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

14/07/2008 08:20:12
#88 You working out of McDonald Road by any chance . . .

. . . the daily propoganda from the tools that inhabit the SNP and Labour Party is beginning to drag this forum into the depths.
80

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 14/07/2008 08:26:05
Once again Bishop Devine is sticking his Romish snout where it does not belong. Get thee back to Rome!

When will Scotland wake up and enforece the division of church and state xxxxbecaeis because the Church of Rome is becoming more militant and intrusive under Betty XVIth and should stick with moral and spiritual matters rather than dipping its delicate feet in political waters.

Devine should become more "divine" and shut up and leave politics to the politicians and stop being such a grandstanding and prattling prelate.
81

Jimmy the Pie,

14/07/2008 08:26:18
Good story in the Herald today.

Comrade Broon was at a conference of the Mediterranean Union (whatever that is) in Paris.

The UK was urging a 40% cut, which could reduce road fuel consumption in Britain by an average of two billion litres a year and save the typical motorist around £500 a year in running costs, insisted the PM.

"To achieve such a target we will need to see the mass production of electric vehicles - conventional hybrids, plug-in hybrids, and fully electric vehicles. Electric vehicles are now available on our roads but they are specialist cars and vans available only in small numbers. I want to see the mass production of hybrid and electric drive technology in ordinary family models.

"And," he added, "I want to see those cars manufactured in Britain. So I will be meeting with leaders from the British motor industry next week to discuss their plans for hybrid, electric and other low-carbon car technologies."

That was why he couldn't visit Glasgow East!!!
82

Ewan Kerr - Juans brother,

14/07/2008 08:32:02
notice the amount of harmless posts being removed?

Oh AM2 is back , you know by the number of early morning deletions. Especialy ones critising his routine of attack. Don't know why that was removed at #11 . Must have let out a Jpress secret
83

Ewan Kerr - Juans brother,

14/07/2008 08:33:51
I recommend all users goto this website and ask them to intervene for the sake of democracy.

http://www.2600.com/
84

Jimmy the Pie,

14/07/2008 08:34:55
It seems Comrade Broon is planning 8 nuclear power stations, mass production of electric cars, wind farms everywhere, tidal power stations, eco villages everywhere, and all this before he suffers the worst electoral slaughtering in history.

The next 2 years should be interesting!! ;-)
85

Ewan Kerr - Juans brother,

14/07/2008 08:36:27
#100 - Apparently the North sea is the new gulf. Glad to know he asked us first , and nicking a fair few SNP policies.

86

,

14/07/2008 08:37:28
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87

,

14/07/2008 08:38:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
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88

Jimmy the Pie,

14/07/2008 08:42:30
Will the new factories for producing millions of electric cars be in Glasgow East????????

The man is becoming more deluded by the day, like the rest of his sleaze ridden party
89

Doh,

14/07/2008 08:45:10
Nice to see Ian Robertson getting credit for being the better candidate in the TV debate.

Margaret Curran manged to restrain herself and almost seem reasonable (so full marks to her minders) and John Mason was a bit flat - which could be ominous for the SNP campaign.

The price of a 2lbs of lard is 34.5 new pence.

90

Grahamski,

Falkirk 14/07/2008 08:45:12
93
Nasty wee post from a nasty wee man. Snide and sneaky attacks on people's sexual orientation fits right in with Mr Mason's reactionary world view. He actually claimed that embryo research was 'experimenting on babies' - a pathetic lie peddled by the religious extreme right.
What kind of a country do you think we'd have run by ayatollahs like Mr Mason?
91

Shellfishfarmer,

Inverness 14/07/2008 08:49:00
#LEAL

I think Hamish is being gratuitous in his take on the debate. You are right, no-one really shone, but I would say that the most thoughtful ppc was John Mason. In that respect, I would give him the verdict on the day. If anything, I would say that the wooden spoon should go to Margaret Curran. She was defensive and not very good at it. I would rather have John Mason defending and representing my interests than any other of them.
92

Luke Skywalker,

United Kingdom 14/07/2008 08:50:57
94 Sam. I agree. It is a free country so I suppose he has the same rights as you and I to give his point of view. However, we also have the right to request people not to listen to the rantings of a non elected fairy tale teller with only his own personal ambition in mind who is trying to stop medical progress. Given that there is no such thing as God then I wish to support the medical profession which is doing its best to improve the life of ALL people. I will campaign against a self appointed individual hell bent on deciding who will have their life improved and who will have it terminated earlier than necessary.
93

Senga Jean,

14/07/2008 08:59:11
I will continue to vote SNP. I will continue to support a secular society. Why? Because the SNP is a democratic party and I will oppose Cll. Mason,s view on "faith" matters. I agree with most of his other views. BTW I was amused at the Lib/Dem nasty comment that the SNP was a single issue party.
94

Number 6,

Germany 14/07/2008 09:01:56
#91 But I was here first. try and show a little originality.
95

Union is Best,

14/07/2008 09:05:53
106. Well said Grahamski

we would probably end up in a society where civil liberties were under threat and being curtailed with 42 day detention without charge, ID cards, and probably in a country which would go to the assistance of a neo-con US president who says God told him to invade a Muslim country.

A chilling prospect.
96

Grahamski,

Falkirk 14/07/2008 09:07:50
88
I campigned for Labour in Govan in 1988 and I've been working in Shettleston during this election. The two are completely different. In 1988 Jim Sillars was an outstanding candidate for the SNP. He destroyed our candidate on the doorstep and more importantly in the tv studios. (I still can't help shuddering every time I hear the word 'subsidiarity')
Mr Mason falls far short of Mr Sillars' charisma, chutzpah and political nous. Labour will hold this seat with several thousand votes to spare...
97

Union is Best,

14/07/2008 09:10:59
112. Grahamski

excellent, we have decided the result and can confidently exclaim how everyone will vote.

I too have detected a ground swell of support for abolishing the 10p tax rate, spiralling fuel and energy costs and the great Labour record we have in the East end (south side) as evidenced by housing, health, employment and poverty levels.
98

Grahamski,

Falkirk 14/07/2008 09:11:46
111
Well done, SNP HQ is pleased with you. When we are under attack for having a religious nutter as a candidate why not bring up Iraq.
In fact why don't you spout some nauseating homphobic bigotry while you're at it. That'll please our shady backers.
Incidentally, love your new name!
ps stand by for further instructions..from your nat handler at SNP HQ
99

Union is Best,

14/07/2008 09:12:05
112. Makes you wonder why every Labour MP has been ordered to Glasgow East though if we are winning so easily?...
100

Grahamski,

Falkirk 14/07/2008 09:13:54
113
DON'T MENTION HOUSING!
It'll draw attention to our slum-landlord SNP councillor. Back to Iraq and homophobia, that's what we're best at....
from SNP HQ
101

Union is Best,

14/07/2008 09:13:56
114. A religious nutter? Who opposes aspects of the Human embryo and Fertilisation bill and wants a reduction in abortion term limits? mmmm, that would seem to cover hundreds of Labour, Tory and Lib Dem MPs as well. Suggest you regroup and go back to the civil liberties arguments, I felt our 42 day detention and ID card plans will win that debate!
102

Union is Best,

14/07/2008 09:14:57
116. Grahamski

no, we should campaign proudly on the fact Labour built 6 council houses in 8 years in Scotland, and voted with the Tories to keep the right to buy thus hindering plans for more council house building! They will lap that up!
103

JimC,

Kilmarnock 14/07/2008 09:18:25
Was it not Faulkes who started all this sectarian nonsense last week? The comments by Number: 6 are hilarious “As far as I am concerned Catholics should not be allowed in government if they are going to place loyalty to their religion before their duty to constituents.” So Labour MP and MSP's never place party loyalty before their constituents give me a break. And while we are on about the sectarian card being played, it was the Orange Order who took to the streets last May 2007 to argue against a SNP government in Hollyrood.
104

Grahamski,

Falkirk 14/07/2008 09:18:56
115
Thats more like it.
Every Labour MP 'ordered to Glasgow East'.
We know it's a lie but that's the beauty of black propaganda, nobody checks and we can just spout lie after lie.
Keep up the good work, remember, today's theme is Iraq and homosexuals, we're against them both!
SNP HQ
105

Union is Best,

14/07/2008 09:20:16
120. Indeed
---------------------------------------

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4322703.ece

Every Labour MP will be ordered to campaign in Glasgow East amid mounting panic that the party could lose the by-election in the constituency this month.

Party whips are launching an extraordinary operation to ensure that every minister and backbencher hits the streets on the tough estates of Easterhouse to try to stave off the threat from the Scottish National party (SNP).

The rearguard action is remarkable because Labour’s Margaret Curran will be defending a majority of 13,500. The SNP needs a swing of 22%.

The visits will be strictly monitored, with backbenchers required to clock in when they reach Glasgow.
106

Union is Best,

14/07/2008 09:21:30
120. Against homosexuals? Makes you wonder why the SNP voted for repeal of section 2a and for an equal age of consent?

107

Grahamski,

Falkirk 14/07/2008 09:22:21
117
Have you gone native? Return to SNP HQ for re-programming. Don't mention religion, it will bring attention on our covert deals with the religious extreme right.
You have been given your instructions.
SNP HQ
108

Union is Best,

14/07/2008 09:22:48
120. I do hope nobody checks the article in the Times saying "Every Labour MP ordered to Glasgow East" and that they will be required to clock in at Glasgow to check their attendance, otherwise your post will look rather silly.
109

Union is Best,

14/07/2008 09:24:02
123. I suppose, while at the same time complaining about "lies" that are from yesterday's Times, you will now post to back up your "covert deals with the extreme religious right" otherwise you may look like a pontificating loon.
110

Union is Best,

14/07/2008 09:27:25
123. Just for background in case they ask, how do we know about their "covert deals" if they are covert?
111

The Tin Man,

14/07/2008 09:27:34
42 days detention without trial for all Glasgow East candidates caught on CCTV not displaying their ID cards!

Tax the poot and buy banks!

It's Time!
112

radge dug,

14/07/2008 09:28:29
Grahamski- wunderkind. Tell the voters Iraq and Afghanistan have been a huge success. And they will be a success for the forthcoming decades. It's almost Orwellian. And two new £50billion aircraft carriers? When there's no money for cooncil hooses? These carriers will be adept at stopping Islamic neds driving cars at our airports.

Lastly, why not fly in those good God-fearing socialists George W Bush (i call him 'Red George') and Tony Blair? They will swing the vote.
113

Grahamski,

Falkirk 14/07/2008 09:34:31
129
Yes very good, Ken Spart would be pleased with you, anyway back to the SNP candidate and the fact that he is to the right of an ayatollah when it comes to his ahem 'conscience'...no wonder you're so desperate to change the subjst, ha ha ha
114

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 14/07/2008 09:35:50
Since 1997, we have come to expect the indigenous Tory Party to trail in the wake of the two major parties in Scotland but they have really plummeted the depths in the latest opinion polls!

No one seriously expected them to take Glasgow East but after polling miserly figures many must ask: "What is the point of the Scottish Tories in the 21st Century?"
115

Grahamski,

Falkirk 14/07/2008 09:36:59
128
SNP tactic no 43b: If in doubt, smear.
116

Union is Best,

14/07/2008 09:38:33
130. Grahamski

yes, glad to see you have body-swerved your own post at 120 saying that Labour MPs being ordered to Glasgow was a lie (it was after all just taken from yesterday's Times, even with details on how their visits will be checked) and that you have not given any deals on the "covert" deals you have detected the SNP doing.....couldn't have been that covert. Is that a distant tinkly of laughter I detect?

Best that we move on and forget this sorry episode.

Back to vicil liberties, abolishing 10p tax and closing post offices while buying banks I think, that should set the heather alight!
117

Union is Best,

14/07/2008 09:39:37
132. Quite right, and despicable that they have copied a tactic you pioneered above with your "covert deals" posts.... I am still dreading any Nat asking me how we know if this if it was "covert"??
118

Publius,

London 14/07/2008 09:44:54
Lost of distasteful - but interesting - arguments about abortion, embryos etc. Abortion laws etc should be made by Holyrood, not Westminster. Criminal law, health and social services are all devolved matters. Abortion law belongs to these and should be devolved too.
119

Grahamski,

Falkirk 14/07/2008 09:49:00
133
Steady on, you're blowing your cover ! You're meant to be a unionist! Return to SNP HQ, you've been outed!
Nice to see at least one nat can come out the closet without the fear of being castigated by the ayatollahs that fund the natz.....
120

M.Corleone,

2nd Vatican State..... Coatbridge 14/07/2008 09:51:31
Shifts to the Moral high ground ???

Well that's Labour well and truly Friar Tucked then
121

C U Jimmy,

East Ayrshire 14/07/2008 09:56:20
Labour can depend on the die hards 'my granny voted labour, my dad voted labour so I will vote labour, but it's a different world now, they can also count on the 'stay in bed' until about 3pm and then go to collect your giro, Get the walking stick out it's time to see the doctor, 'now where did I put it? and then back to the telly, it's been a hard day.
122

,

14/07/2008 09:57:29
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123

Miss H,

14/07/2008 09:57:37
Grahamski I also campaigned in Govan and now in Glasgow East - it's not Shettleston. Most of the seat is Baillieston. I think less than a third of polling districts are in Shettleston constituency. If you don't even know what is in the constituency I rather doubt you have been campaigning there.

However even giving you the benefit of the doubt the similarities with Govan must strike anyone and we are going to get the same result. Judging by the goodwill their activists have been showing us the other parties know it even if Labour doesn't yet know it.

But what I really wanted to come on for was to give you the award for being the top hypocrite on the forum - and given the competition that is quite something. Having spent most of last week making homophobic comments about John Mason being a carefree bachelor boy etc you seamlessly move into accusations that he is a homophobe with not even one little iota of evidence to support that. The scale of that about-face, the ease with which you lie, surely deserves some kind of recognition. Even by Labour standards you are exceptional.

I see where you lot are going with this though – when you lose you can claim that the SNP targeted the Catholic vote, just like we are supposed to have targeted the Muslim vote in Govan or the white settler vote in the Western Isles.

Labour have still not worked out how the SNP operates – we target every vote.

124

Grahamski,

Falkirk 14/07/2008 10:07:21
140
Me homophobic? Certainly not.
125

,

14/07/2008 10:08:20
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126

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 10:08:44
...some thirty or forty years before the song was even adopted as the British national anthem in the 1780s and 1790s.
127

Grahamski,

Falkirk 14/07/2008 10:10:56
140
I'm well aware it's Glasgow East but thanks for the pedantry anyway....
128

Jimmy the Pie,

14/07/2008 10:17:10
Grahamski.

I must salute your indefatigablity and resilience in the face of constant humiliation and ridicule at the hands of Union Is Best.

It says a lot for your thick skin!

Are you hoping for a seat on the New Labour Sleaze gravy train (or are you already boosting your current account
129

George Mackay,

Dundee 14/07/2008 10:17:56
It's time something was done about multiple names on this board. It's obvious AM2 and Miss H are the same person. You couldn't have two pedants with nothing better to do than keep posting the Scotsman.
130

Jimmy the Pie,

14/07/2008 10:20:22
145 Grahamski continued

Are you hoping for a seat on the New Labour Sleaze gravy train (or are you already boosting your current account with extravagant expense claims)?

Any word on how David Marshall coping with his £500K stash and generous pension????
131

,

14/07/2008 10:21:18
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132

Miss H,

14/07/2008 10:21:25
142 I can tell you why the SNP selected John Mason. Because the local members chose him. It is helpful that his ward covers a third of the seat and he got the highest personal vote of any councillor in Glasgow.

133

George Haley,

Exiled in Germany 14/07/2008 10:24:32
131 The reason would be democracy at a guess. To the question what has Labour done for Glasgow East? It would appear not a lot. Question what is the difference between a Religious Sect telling it's [probably] mainly in name only followers how to vote and say Mugabe? They both promise Hell and Damnation although in reality one is more likely to provide it than the other. The only way the residents of deprived areas of any Town can improve themselves is by effort, not by trooping into a Church and paying lip service or voting for Politicians who at the end of the day can do little to improve their lot if they don't make the effort themselves. The area needs to be cleaned up in many senses, crime and drug problems need to be addressed. That means that the people need to look at some unpleasent truths. There has to be something better than living in a deprived area riddled with poverty, state benefits, drugs etc. but if the people living there don't make more of an effort to help themselves, Church and Politicians will continue to come out with platitudes and wringing hands but the people will still be there if they don't start trying to help themselves. I would have to say that if Scotland ever became independent it would have to make sure that everybody pulled their weight for the betterment of all [I am not advocating a socialist policy when I say that] and the vast majority of law abiding citizens should make it clear that sitting in 'sink estates' coping the dole is a short term solution and at the same time slap down the criminal element that prefer to theft and drug dealing at any level as a means rather than honest work.
Finally beware of politicians who tell lies for whatever reason or who are economic with the truth. Without wishing to become religious, 'tell the truth and shame the devil'!
134

Conan the Librarian™,

14/07/2008 10:25:08
142
Short-lived verse?

And we are still talking about it, if not singing it.
135

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 10:25:26
#146 George Mackay

Miss H is a veteran SNP member and activist who has made one post to this thread. I'm a non party-aligned "unionist" (for want of a better word) who has made two substantive posts. Quite how you can imagine that we're one and the same baffles me!
136

Scottish 'N British,

14/07/2008 10:33:52
Not really impressed by the debate on The Politics Show.

Of the 4 candidates, the Lib Dem did best and talked a good game. I particularly liked his point about Cllr. Mason being a representative of a sinle-issue party. Spot on, young man.

The young Tory was like a wee lamb.

Mason's brief was evident - keep it short and simple. But he was so ashen faced, and his hands shook so much that I really felt sorry for him.

Margaret Curran did OK, probably had the same brief as Mason. But Margaret being Margaret.....

Hopefully the BBC debate will probe further.

137

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 10:42:02
#154 Jackie Priest

You evidently see some kind of devious political plot in Scots supporting their nearest neighbour in a sporting event. I don't. Yes, Mason was responding to a complaint, or complaints. But his words are his own, and clearly we're not going to agree on whether or not they're reprehensible.
138

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 10:43:58
#157 Jackie Priest

So, replying to criticism is "off topic and should be wiped"?

How convenient. Why not delete this one too? ;-)
139

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 14/07/2008 10:45:19
I see there are still those unionists like Grahamski who are seeking to claim some moral high gound, yet I don't recall one of them commenting on the fact that a department of the government they support has just had to pay out £3,000,000 pounds in compansation to Iraq's who were tortured and lest we forget, the family of one who was murdered, by british soldiers, in a war which many believe ileagle and against which many thousands marched in protest.

This is not entirely surprising of course when you consider that some unionist papers would not even allow comments on the story when they published it.

But then maybe life, when it's far away in a country not having a by-election is not so important to them and therefor not a moral issue, mind you when you see the way the people of East Glasgow have been treated for all those years I suppose you could argue that their views on morality are fluid at best, no matter who they are concerned with.

War crimes anybody and which unionists should appear before an international tribunal?
140

Arfur,

14/07/2008 10:47:39
Typical hootsman reporting. Giving the Labour candidate better marks than the SNP candidate. I bet the reporter didn't even watch the debate?

She jumped on every question whether she actually answered it or not, at some points she talked garbage just to talk for talking sake. Where she did have a view tho, she was ok.

Personally I think they were all about equal except for Ian Robertson, thought he was an extreamly clever young man. Shame he isn't in the SNP.
141

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 14/07/2008 10:47:55
#157

If by "partisan interests" you mean the non disentigration of the country we live in then I wouldn't say that was Partisan. Tactical voting may well take place.
142

Conan the Librarian™,

14/07/2008 10:53:59
155
Ford
"You" seem to be interested;-)
143

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 10:57:49
#164 Jackie Priest

You're off on a wild tangent. There is no evidence that the school tried to "indoctrinate", "brainwash" or "force" children to adopt any particular loyalties.

Glasgow City Council said all competing nations flags had been up at the school, with "one or two" England flags as they were easier to obtain.

A spokesman said: "The school regularly celebrates multi-cultural events.

"Flags from all the nations taking part in the World Cup were represented and it was displayed with the best of intentions.

"An emergency motion was approved today by the council condemning all forms of bigotry, hatred and racism, and calling on Glaswegians to end any anti-English hatred."
144

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 11:05:36
Incidentally (and on this I could legitimately be accused of pedantry) according to Cllr Mason there was only one complaint, and it came from a pupil at the school.
145

Neil,

Glasgow 14/07/2008 11:07:56
Remeber the Catholic Bishop in Jack McConnell's constituency telling people not to vote Labour. This church has been cracking the whip of its alleged control over the "Cahtolic vote" for years but it is quite clear it no longer controls these voters.

In any case a church which gave $2 billion to Franjo Tufjman the Croatian Nazi leader & supplied ground to air missiles to Moslem terroristts, in both cases to assist in genocide can NEVE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES serve as a moral leader to any decent human.
146

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 11:08:30
#167 Jackie Priest

I agree that the "one or two" sounds like they were seeking to downplay the number of flags, just as Cllr Mason's comment that he had been told it was "almost exclusively England" (cleverly avoiding those words being attributed to him) sounds like an over-exaggeration. But the key point here isn't the exact nature of the flag display. It's the attitudes which his words reveal.
147

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 11:09:06
Anyway, now we really are wildly off-topic. Have a pleasant day. Bye.
148

Number 6,

Germany 14/07/2008 11:10:34
The fear amongst Labour is palpable. Who thought it would be a good idea to send Harriden Harman to beg for votes in Mount Vernon ?. I think she will find quite a lot of anti labour hostility there. Peole living in that area tend to have a bit more education than say Easterhouse. Why on earth are Labour mps being corraled into one of "The most deprived areas of Europe" if Labour are so popular.

Oh please, keep up the anti catholic rhetoric, this is guaranteed to drive them into the arms of the SNP, finishing Labour off once and for all.

Attitudes towards embryonic research are not religious matters you idiots , they are moral based. You dont have to be a kneeling cathoilic to be against it, just as you dont have to be a foaming at the mouth , No surrender unionista , to support it.
149

Alan B,

14/07/2008 11:11:28
#AM2

"There is no evidence that the school tried to "indoctrinate", "brainwash" or "force" children to adopt any particular loyalties."

Do not know the history round this particular issue but remember we have had the political elite in this country using the education system to sanitise scottish history in schools.

ie do not teach about wars between the 2 countries and the history. This is quite sinister and used by unionist politicians in order to help achieve their longer term policial objectives.

I remember when i studies history at school history for o'grade and highers covered both world wars, the russian revolution and a dreadful and boring component of scottish history that ignore the most important event of scottish history. All i can remember of the history taught regarding scotland was the cotton industry.

With regard to scotland supporting england at football matches. Firstly remember jack mcconnnell did not support england. This is not a nationalistic thing but to some extent cultural.

The reasons many scots would not support england are:
1)football support do not support ur main rivals. Do arsnel fans support spurs if they are not playing everton, liverpool. It simply does not happen.
2)scotland tends to have got p***** of with the arrogance of the english media and the contempt the english media has in regard to scotland. jimmy hill being a target of football fans while as a football commentator. one thing if u spend time and live in england, the english in general think the media in england are ridiculous too with their expectations of the english team. does a major championship ever go past without many in scotland getting abit p***** with the english commentors.

I though it was funny how rangers games would be shown down south with an english commentators while the euros where just the english based team.

It is also not about not supporting english sportpersons in general. i would support an english golfer or athlete but
150

Wee Hugh,

14/07/2008 11:11:35
#169

Neil,

What are you on? Where do you get this tripe?
151

Alan B,

14/07/2008 11:11:45
cont. not the football team
152

Nikostratos,

14/07/2008 11:15:04
/
153

,

14/07/2008 11:21:31
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154

Number 6,

Germany 14/07/2008 11:23:41
Support England ? what on earth for ? No where in Europe do rival countries support each other on the football field. I attended the Ranger's match yesterday and was very pleased to see this moron in an England top get slagged off by a succesion of Ranger's fans. Get that sh*t off he was told on numerous occasions.

No, only the twisted logic of a unionista would lead a Scotsman to support England on the football field.
Why, Rangers fans were even singing "Flower of Scotland" .
155

westview,

reading Darwin. 14/07/2008 11:24:44
The embryology bill should be a free vote and not whipped through the London parliament by Labour control freaks. What voters decide at the ballot box should be up to them .
156

M.Corleone,

2nd Vatican State.... Coatbridge 14/07/2008 11:56:35
Moving to high moral ground means Labour obviously have Mark Thatcher at the helm...and they are well out of their depth.

It's amazing about morality issues...we are all allowed an opinion; big business, banks, pressure groups, arms manufacturers and cigarette makers as well as the Press with their vested interests....... but not the Catholic church it seems.

Where exactly is the bigotry here ?
157

Auckland Arab2,

14/07/2008 11:58:02
The Catholic Church is a pressure group like many others and frankly is entitled to voice its views and concerns on matters important to it. The problem here is that a lot of people in the Liebour party would rather silence free speech than hear Senior Catholics criticise them. Why should the City of London have any more influence on political matters than say the Church? Or Chief Constables, who are constantly courting the press to air their views on policy matters, rather than talk about enforcement. You may not agree with the man, but he has a right to speak his mind and represent his constituency. It's called democracy.
158

subrosa,

14/07/2008 11:59:05
# 116 ' DON'T MENTION HOUSING!
It'll draw attention to our slum-landlord SNP councillor. Back to Iraq and homophobia, that's what we're best at....
from SNP HQ'

Ha ha! SNP Councillor: One clean and well maintained flat in a slum close.

Glasgow Labour Council: 1000s of badly built, slum dwellings. In fact they're even blowing them up in the night and some are only 30 years old. Shameful waste of taxpayers money and more importantly shameful attempt at social engineering the housing situation in parts of Glasgow.

'Keep 'em poor, keep 'em needy'.

159

Wee Hugh,

14/07/2008 12:00:27
#181 and #182

Hear, hear!
160

,

14/07/2008 12:03:09
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161

Sunrise,

Fife 14/07/2008 12:06:17
On Yesterday's "debate?":

I found it very bland:

I agree that The Lib Dem guy was best.

One thing that struck me was that Margaret Curran was not as good as I expected her to be and John Mason was not as poor as I expected him to be. About Even I would say and this is probably good for Labour’s prospects, unfortunately.

One thing I had to laugh at was John Mason telling us all he was an Accountant. I don't see the good folks of Glasgow East being inspired by such a profession. Unfortunately this group have a charisma bypass fitted at birth.


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14/07/2008 12:08:10
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14/07/2008 12:16:35
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Regret,

14/07/2008 12:18:38
Number 6, 6, 6:

Deception is running a muk. Many politicians are uneducated about certain important issues such as the ones concerning health and human services. Where is the money being made? Who is really running the show? Who wants to do scientific research/mutilation/implantation on/from these cross embryos? A company that manufacturers baby skin into a powder to sprinkle on people who have face lifts became a fortune 500 company in a matter of a few years. No cures have ever come about from the killing of little people in their early form (embryos). But many pharmaceutical companies are making fortunes creating products from dead peoples tissue, bones etc Many people who receive manufactured dead parts later acquire diseases. The scientific world is turning our world into a cannibalistic society - but society is being kept from the truth.
165

Wee Hugh,

14/07/2008 12:19:36
Media 1,

A world without the Catholic Church would be one without the largest charitable organisation in the world, without the largest educator of children and young people in the world. The university system as we know it was founded by the Catholic Church. Welcome to your impoverished world.

PS As you live in Africa you'll also want to know that the Church cares for more people with HIV in Africa than anyone else. But then your government and President doesn't even believe in HIV.
166

Media 1,

cape town 14/07/2008 12:34:31
James #194

Tell you what, you offer me the facts on the 52 countries in Africa to counter those claims and I will give you a medal.

Wee Hugh #193 There is no doubt that Catholic believers do good, my granny and my mother is testament to that, but the church that represents them is a shocking and disgusting organisation.

Spook in Leith

You dont count!




167

Wee Hugh,

14/07/2008 12:39:57
Media 1,

Are you really Ian Paisley in disguise? For years he's trotted out 'I don't have a problem with Catholics, it's their Church I don't like'. Unfortunately you can't separate them.

Whatever your issues are in life you need to stop projecting them onto the Catholic Church. It can take it, but you're not getting anywhere.
168

Media 1,

cape town 14/07/2008 12:47:04
Wee Hugh

Ian Paisley in a bigot. He dislikes Catholics!
I have no issues with people of that faith, but I have a problem with that idiot who dresses like a tw@t in a porno robe, that silly hat and carrying that stupid blooody staff whilst offering people a chance to fall to their knees and kiss his ring.
What is it they announced in 2001? Oh yes, in some little document and without much noise they eventually declared that the Earth was not the centre of the universe. What a bunch of f@kcing tossers.
169

Media 1,

cape town 14/07/2008 12:48:14
Spook

You dont count!
170

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14/07/2008 12:49:37
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G,

dundee 14/07/2008 12:50:57
"Battle for Glasgow East shifts to the moral high ground"
The RC church has the high ground?
On the same day that the Pope is to apologise for child abuse by priests????

Keep the kirks out of politics...
172

Wee Hugh,

14/07/2008 12:51:14
Media,

Go and lie down in a quiet dark place and keep taking the pills. Once you've calmed down seek some professional help, if only for your grammar and punctuation!

ps Compare my quote from Ian Paisley in #198 with what you have written in #204 and see if you can see any difference.
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14/07/2008 12:52:02
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John S,

14/07/2008 12:52:46
#204,Media 1: As a practicing Catholic (genuine)I think your posts are disgusting and are in bad taste.
175

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 14/07/2008 12:56:26
AM2,
Talking about John Mason wrote:
"He also comes across as one of those jingoistic, almost supremacist nationalists. For example, he said that he thinks English people moving to Glasgow “shows they think the city is better than those in England”.

You just let your belly rattle, don't you. If John Mason was a 'supremacist' he wouldn't want English people in Glasgow would he? I know people of lots of nationalities who moved to Glasgow and have stayed because they think it is a great place to live. My German friends think it is better than anywhere in Germany. I suppose that makes them supremacists?
176

John S,

14/07/2008 13:00:32
Why all this anti Catholic Church and anti Pope Benedict XVI ? Think some of us will get hurt but if this is your sense of humour then so be it.Makes me feel ashamed of calling myself Scottish.
177

Media 1,

cape town 14/07/2008 13:02:00
Wee Hugh

You are an educated person, so why you are doing your level best to broadcast yourself as an idiot is beyond me.
Are you openly suggesting that my dislike of the White House and their politics is proof that I am hostile to the American people?

Please Hugh, even I know that you are capable of better responses than that.

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Number 6,

Germany 14/07/2008 13:04:41
#196 The spook, very well put mate. But no place for such searing sense here i'm afraid. lol
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14/07/2008 13:09:43
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Media 1,

cape town 14/07/2008 13:10:48
Number 6

Had you been following my political views on the race for the white house you would note that I am behind Obama vs McCain. Imagine another 4 years with George W Bush's mate, Mr Boom Boom Carnage Mania Man McCain...?
I think not!
181

Wee Hugh,

14/07/2008 13:13:18
Media 1,

Are there two of you? AN ANGRY ONE and a reasonable one? IAN and Sean?

It is possible to be hostile to Americans as well as their political system and whoever it is that leads it at any particular time. It is quite common for Anti-americanism to show up with a claim to detest President X but not the American people/USA etc., but more often than not it is just a cover for a deep seated hostility to all things American.
Following this logic you can see why I ask you to compare #198 and #204
182

Tris,

14/07/2008 13:13:45
Post 13

"As far as I am concerned Catholics should not be allowed in government if they are going to place loyalty to their religion before their duty to constituents."


Can you tell us who else you would exclude from government in your version of a democracy? Mormons, Baptists, Free Church, High C of E, Muslims, .... then maybe Gays, Women, Disabled? Maybe people who place loyalty to something you don't agree with ... we all have our loyalties.

I'm no apologist for Browne, or McChattering Cairns, or Kelly, but they were elected. Their constituents may very well agree with what they did. If not, of course, they have the ability to remove them at the next election.

183

monkey man,

14/07/2008 13:17:02
The Catholic Church is playing the sectarian card at this by-election and virtually telling its punters to shun Labour. All right thinking people should condemn them for this.

Not surprisingly perhaps as wee Fatty Salmond has been their new bestest pal over the last year or so. How do the Nats feel of their overlord wanting to drag Scotland back to the Dark Ages.?
184

Wee Hugh,

14/07/2008 13:20:58
#222

Monkey Man,

What is a 'right thinking' person?
185

Media 1,

cape town 14/07/2008 13:22:28
Wee Hugh

Well then, for the record.
I am not a fan of George Bush or his politics, but I have no feelings of hostility toward the people of America.

I am not a fan of the pope or the popes before him, some of whom were responsible for the most despicable acts of human suffering we have ever known. But I have no feelings of hostility toward anyone who practices catholicism.

And thirdly, I am not a fan of the way in which African leaders have ruled this continent. Anyone with half a brain can see the mess that Africans have made of this place. But I hold no feeling of hostility toward African people, who are at the mercy of these animals like Mugabe and his supporters in neighbouring governments.

Does that clear it up for you?
186

monkey man,

14/07/2008 13:24:23
#223 Wee Hugh

A "right thinking" person is one who aspires to do what would generally be seen as the fair and "right" thing.

The Catholic Church is appealing to the bigots within its ranks at this by- election.
187

Wee Hugh,

14/07/2008 13:25:28
#224

Perfectly clear.

But what does the angry one think or better still feel?
188

monkey man,

14/07/2008 13:26:33
# 224 Media 1

Intersting that GW Bush has cultivated the support of the extreme right wing Christians in the USA. It appears we Fatty Salmond is doing similar here in Scotland with the RC Church.
189

Wee Hugh,

14/07/2008 13:26:55
Monkey Man,

What generally is the fair and "right" thing?
190

monkey man,

14/07/2008 13:27:50
# 226

Ask Bishop Devine or Keith O'Brien.
191

New Unionist Poster,

14/07/2008 13:34:58
"LABOUR came under intense pressure from both the Catholic Church and the SNP"

The article then mentions the Catholic church pressurising the labour party. Where in the article does it say that the SNP put labour under intense pressure? It doesn't. What a dreadfully biased article.

KEEP RELIGION OUT OF POLITICS.
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14/07/2008 13:36:00
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14/07/2008 13:36:32
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Wee Hugh,

14/07/2008 13:37:34
Sorry boys I have to go out now. I've enjoyed our little joust today Media 1. Monkey Man I would love to engage a bit more with you but my time is up.

The issue for me in these fora whenever the Catholic Church or its views are debated is the emotive tone of the contributions. These seem to indicate old fashioned bigotry in the guise of modern liberal thought.

Have fun. Be good.
195

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 14/07/2008 13:38:05
#153 Scottish

Unfortunately, the Libdem candidate lost all credibility when he followed up his "single issue" allegation by criticising the SNP's OTHER policies.

I thought that made him look phoney and eager for a meaningless soundbite.
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 14/07/2008 13:40:24
#155 Union is Best is the funniest Nat poster on here. I read his posts avidly.

Brownlie is pretty funny too.

Both Nats!
197

Media 1,

cape town 14/07/2008 13:44:59
Wee Hugh #226

I will ask him when he gets back! :)
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Neil,

Glasgow 14/07/2008 13:49:54
Wee Shughie 179 thank you for your typically well argued point though I note you don't have any actual factual dispute to make.
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Iainbroch,

Moray 14/07/2008 13:52:06
M.Curran - reason if any was needed why experimentation on babies and cloning must be stopped now.
I am sure that Brian Wilson and Helen Liddel geting into the back of a taxi togther must have violated several laws - look at the product M.Curran - not so much a love child as a hate child?
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monkey man,

14/07/2008 13:53:33
# 233 Wee Hugh

No problem with logical debate, though the scarcity of it is on here at times. I do accept your view that the Catholic Church would appear inconsistent and bigoted though in its ideology.

201

Iainbroch,

Moary 14/07/2008 13:56:21
What do you call a Fib Dem spotted eating meat, partaking of alcohol and caffeine,smoking cigarette and talking to someone of opposite sex!

Maverick!
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Number 6,

Germany 14/07/2008 13:57:36
219 Media 1 why the hell are you asking me if I have been folowing your political views ? Have you gone mad?
203

Upandunder,

14/07/2008 14:03:11
Glasgow East is one of those areas populated by large numbers who would vote for a tailor's dummy wearing a red rosette.

Labour voters fall in four categories:

a) The state-sponsored Labour voter: Non-working people who Labour are happy to shift onto a permanent benefits lifestyle in order to falsify the (real) jobless figures.

b) The hereditary Labour voter: "Me nan voted Labour, me mam voted Labour, I vote Labour."

c) The active Left Labour voter: Bangs on about Palestine, loves Cuba, hates America/Israel, turns blind eye to Sudan, Mugabe etc (ie: when oppressor is non-Western). Slates America's carbon footprint but blissfully ignores China's break-neck pursuit of global dominance.

d) The old Socialist. A normally meek, well-meaning person who has a rather tragic blind spot - they fail to see that Labour is no longer the party of Gaitskell, Hardie etc but one of trendy six-figured Guardianistas who wouldn't be seen dead in a "common man's place" like chip shop.

Good luck to the other parties - you'll need it!
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14/07/2008 14:04:24
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All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 14/07/2008 14:11:00
#242

The type of voter at letter c seems awful similar to the nats that populate this forum.
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morris,

edinburgh 14/07/2008 14:11:57
Number: 6,14/07/2008 00:03:55

Ive heard this rumour before . The SNP have a secret agenda which is to break up the UK and create a seperate Scotland !

Well I never!

Of course he would support that objective since he is actually a candidate. Ill let you into an even bigger secret !

New Labour have a secret agenda to save the United Kingdom and destroy any attempt to let Scotland run her own affairs!
Its so secret even Gordon Broon disnae ken aboot it!

He certainly has no idea what it contains!
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Upandunder,

14/07/2008 14:12:38
244 - I agree, quite so!
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14/07/2008 14:13:45
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Number 6,

Germany 14/07/2008 14:15:40
Will this be the new unionista tactic of the future.
Try to paint the SNP as a "Catholic" party. Too late morons, you will find people of all persuasions in both parties and that won't change. However constant attacks on the Catholic faith WILL lose support for the "Union".

The SUP is where most of you belong , you know smash
the Catholic school system , control of immigration. Pulling out of the EU, i'm sure that will appeal to quite a lot of the bigots here because they will find no support for these things in ANY of the mainstream parties.
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14/07/2008 14:19:01
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All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 14/07/2008 14:24:13
#249

The SNP are not a Catholic party, they will say anything about anything to get votes and worry how to square the circle at a later date. The majority of SNP Westminster MPs voted with the Government against tightening regulations on embryo and stem cell research.
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monkey man,

14/07/2008 14:28:05
# 249

Wee Fatty Salmond's collusion with the extremists that are the Catholic Church will be their undoing.

Upholding sectarian apartheid and job discrimination in our education system which is the root cause of bigotry, cutting the time limit for abortion, etc, is gruesome and un-Scottish. The SNP are alienating the majority of Scotland to make a grab for the bigot vote.
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Number 6,

Germany 14/07/2008 14:29:15
#251 My Point exactly but you can assure many people will try to paint them as such .
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Number 6,

Germany 14/07/2008 14:30:45
#251 see 252 . I rest my case.
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monkey man,

14/07/2008 14:34:04
# 253

But I'm right though and that's what will cost the SNP. It was they who decided to play the sectarian card to court the Catholic vote whilst ignoring the wishes of the majority.

Over 90% of the Scottish people want sectarian apartheid abolished in our education system. They should act on that fact.
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 14:40:57
#248 Traquir , Alba

Re:

– “offensive behavious from AM2”
– “trying to stir up racism at every opportunity”
– “hopefully… he will finally cease and desist”
– “otherwise I will have no choice but to escalate my complaints to a higher level”

My goodness, why so keen to silence me?

Go ahead. All I did, following on from Bishop Devine’s disapproval of Labour’s stance on embryology and the like, was to collate various John Mason quotes and express my disapproval. If you think that’s “stirring up racism” then there’s not a lot else I can say.

Here are those quotes again, for your lawyer’s benefit.

During the 2006 World Cup finals Cllr Mason received a complaint from a pupil at Hillhead High School about the supposedly “excessive” number of English flags being hung at the school. He said:

– “It's all very well saying sport and politics shouldn't be linked but sport is so huge, especially football, they are linked.”

– “If England is being pushed by a particular school I would consider that to be political activity”

– “I accept that for other people this is a minor issue but for me it's an extremely major issue”

– “I'd not have expected one of our schools to be favouring one country over another”

– “the World Cup is an international event and I would expect the school to dig out 32 flags.”

– “I'm in politics for one reason and that is to break up the UK and so any suggestion of a strengthening of a link between Scotland and England is what I'm opposed to.”

On a different topic, he has also said that he thinks English people moving to Glasgow “shows they think the city is better than those in England”. I don’t like the possible connotation.

Finally, I noted that he falsely claimed that God Save the Queen is “an anti-Scottish song”, presumably a reference to the short-lived anti-Jacobite verse which was abandoned some thirty or forty years before the song was even adopted as the British national anthem in the 1780s and 1790s.
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14/07/2008 14:47:11
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Steve,

14/07/2008 14:48:10
255 "Monkey Man", you are nothing but a twisted little bigot. Shame on you.
How can you criticise the SNP for "sectarian apartheid"? Is that some kind of sick joke?
Labour did nothing to end Catholic education in the 50 years they have held sway in Scotland. And why should they? It's not the kids who keep bigotry going, its the adults. And it was the British state who started segregating kids because of their religion, forcing catholic children to be educated by the church.
Go and read your history books.
You are nothing but a liar.
Clearly these are desperate times for Labour.
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Traquir , Alba,

14/07/2008 14:48:38
256 AM2,Scotland

"My goodness, why so keen to silence me?"

Don't flatter yourself that you are being singled out,
I find anybody who frequently plays the racism
card beneath contempt. Unfortunately there
is a growing minority in this camp and I am
disgusted at all of them including yourself.

As I am have told you on numerous occasions
up your game sir, before you get yourself in
trouble.

220

Armstrong Cowan Again,

Germany 14/07/2008 14:49:47
Comment 7 13 and 10.

Quote from me -
"So much rubbish and so little time". Words just fail me at times when I hear some some of the small minded intolerant views of my fellow Scots who stayed at home.

Here's a cracker

"As far as I am concerned Catholics should not be allowed in government if they are going to place loyalty to their religion before their duty to constituents."

As a staunch Protestant I happen to agree on virtually if not everything Bishop Devine has had to say on moral issues. If a major Christian Church has nothing to contribute to the issues at stake who has?- and especially in the East End. Times have moved on since the Reformation - I see your overall point but I think that is out of date. Certainly it may apply to more fanatical elements of the Muslim faith in some UK constituencies.

Here is another: -

I do not believe in a god, or a monarch.

And I am trying to stop either belief affecting me.

Vote SNP, for rational government.


Oh dear - I do believe in God and regard myself as very rational. - In fact I could tell you a few things that would make your kilt go white but I am not going to waste my time. Do let me know if believing in God , tolerating if not cheering about our modern Monarchy and agreeing with Bishop Devine disqualifies me from voting SNP ? - As I may add -I intend to. Agreeing to disagree or just keeping an open mind on complicated issues at least until the " apparent" facts have been looked at ,is something we all need improve on!

and by the way

"Ian Robertson (Liberal Democrat): Emerged as the surprise star of the show. He was effective, forthright and intervened sharply across his opponents. A no-hoper in this by-election – one to watch for the future. 9/10"

Does anyone know if this man went to Hutchie , grew up in Rutherglen and should be around 54 years old? Sorry I haven't seen is picture.
221

monkey man,

14/07/2008 14:52:50
# 257, # 258

Yes, I really am a "bigot" for wanting to see children of all races faiths and creeds faiths being educated together in the one class learning from each other. Apparently more than 90% of the Scottish people feel the same. Are they bigots also.?
222

Steve,

14/07/2008 14:54:28
256, I think Mason's comments were ill advised. I certainly don't feel threatened by displays of English identity in Scotland, although a school decking itself out in England flags is not exactly p.c. either. Scotland is a diverse mixture of people. No reason why we should all feel obliged to support England.
However..
I wonder what Labour's excuse was for removing Saltires from polling stations in Fife. We have never had an explanation for that either.
223

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14/07/2008 14:56:12
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ThomasP,

14/07/2008 14:56:16
262 monkey man.

At school you will notice children stick with 'their own'.

225

monkey man,

14/07/2008 14:59:21
# 265 Thomas P

So if parents wanted an all white populated school you would have no problem with this.? There is no difference in separating children on either religion or skin colour. It is both morally and ethically wrong.
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ThomasP,

14/07/2008 14:59:41
Steve.

C'mon. English flags at a Public school in Scotland?

Since it is a public school English flags would of isolated groups of people and may even stir up anti-English hatred.
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14/07/2008 15:00:17
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ThomasP,

14/07/2008 15:03:24
266 monkey man.

The only thing I would have a problem with is dismissing pupils because of their skin colour or religous beleifs.

But groups exist within public schools also. You stick with your own. It's not racially motivated but these people are comfortable with someone with a similar background
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monkey man,

14/07/2008 15:04:07
# 268

Could you explain how I am "sectarian" in wishing to see children of all races,faiths and creeds being educated together in the same class.? I'd really like to know. The 90% figure was from less than two years ago.
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monkey man,

14/07/2008 15:06:13
# 270

Do you also approve of the glass ceiling and job discrimination against teachers not of the "faith" in denom-schools.? Its not difficult.
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14/07/2008 15:06:35
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Number 6,

Germany 14/07/2008 15:08:06
Monkey man why dont you tell Westminster you are against religion in state schools. Maybe they will smash the Church of England school system. When you are finished I suggest you go off on a tour of the Christian World wer you will find the Catholic school system alive and kicking. Even in Protestant countries like Holland and Germany plus Italy, Spain Portugal
Poland , etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

How can it be Scotland's shame. I see no ranting from you against the Labour Party who have, over the decades , helped this very succesful system flourish.

There is NO other country in the Christian World were your views would receive any sympathy at all.

Off you pop to the Scottish Unionist Party Web-site , there at least, you will be among freinds. You really should be ashamed of yourself.
233

ThomasP,

14/07/2008 15:09:04
272 monkey man

I do not agree with discrimination full stop.

Catholic and Islamic schools should exist if they want but should not be allowed to reject pupils because their faith in different.
234

monkey man,

14/07/2008 15:11:24
Scotland is a secular society and our school system should reflect that. I ask again, do you all approve of job discrimination against certain teachers in faith schools.?
235

Steve,

14/07/2008 15:11:56
271, if catholic families want their kids to be brought up in the faith, it's up to them. The schools don't create sectarianism. And neither do the kids.
236

Scottish 'N British,

14/07/2008 15:13:55
– “I'm in politics for one reason and that is to break up the UK and so any suggestion of a strengthening of a link between Scotland and England is what I'm opposed to.”

So we shouldn't expect to see any criticism of the LD candidate who pointed out yesterday that Mason was a candidate for a "single issue party".

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monkey man,

14/07/2008 15:14:15
# 277 Steve

But Scottish "faith schools" don't work on any level, either academically or socially. Only ONE is in the top 50 schools for academic excellence in Scotland. They are a failure and a complete waste of money which only breed division and bigotry.
238

ThomasP,

14/07/2008 15:17:12
#280

Like I have said.

Division exists within the public school system.

I personally was never offended but I understood that certain people feel comfortable with someone with a similar background.
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Alan B,

14/07/2008 15:17:50
#275 ThomasP

I would disagree. I think it would be better of children off all religions were educated together. Part of the school/educations system is to social kids so that they grow up tolerent. Having separate religious schools ie catholic schools encourages the problems we have seen with sectarianism in the west of scotland.

Separate muslim schools is a step in the wrong direction. When i was at school in the 80s it was beneficial to mix with kids of differing religions hindu, muslims etc and have friends from those groups. If kids are kept separate, ignorance will bread division and intollerence.

There is a problem in scotland that it is wrong to deny one religious group a religious school when other religions have their school.

At the end of the day a school is to educate kids, socialise them and prepare them for exams. None of that is religious. Schools could accomodate religions by having say after school clubs for differing religions to pursue religious worship/education for specific religions.

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ThomasP,

14/07/2008 15:19:44
283 Alan B.

Are Faith Schools taught about other religions?
241

Molly Weirs wrung out gusset.,

14/07/2008 15:21:14
THE four main contenders for the Glasgow East by-election clashed in their first televised debate yesterday. This is how they performed:

• John Mason (SNP): Went into the debate with a reputation as the dullest candidate – came out with it as the only candidate with a smile on his face, he looked relaxed, confident, even at times flirtatious with Curran, managed to get his points across without too much trouble. 7/10

• Davena Rankin (Conservative): Had trouble stopping her face beaming like a belisha beacon, when asked any question looked uncomfortable, appeared to be squirming on the fringes and disliked being to the right of Curran. 4/10

• Margaret Curran (Labour): Was her usual combative, arrogant, whiny, wheedling siren like self. Has a coupon as attractive as the Wendy. Confirmed to the nation that she is exactly the right candidate for Labour, doomed to political life in wilderness, fail in Glasgow East then dumped via boundary changes, career trough addict destined to early retirement. 10/10

• Ian Robertson (Liberal Democrat): Emerged as a no-hoper in this by-election – only one to bring the agenda back to the pertinent question. May have farked his future in regard to Ming Campbell QC. 6/10

• Garry Robertson, (Independent interrogater): Condescending, snide, manipulative Labour acolyte who spoon fed Curran her questions. Most unpopular reporter in BBC Radio Scotland. 3/10
242

monkey man,

14/07/2008 15:21:27
How can we have a "One Scotland Many Cultures" ethos when the children aren't even educated together because of sectarian apartheid.?
243

Alan B,

14/07/2008 15:22:59
#ThomasP

"I personally was never offended but I understood that certain people feel comfortable with someone with a similar background."

i think that is the case if people are kept artificially separate. if kids grow up together mixing at school the situation u mention above is less likely to happen.

i really could not see kids both from catholic or protestant backgrounds going to school wanting only to hang around with those of the same religion.



244

ochone,

Sauchgie, Clack's 14/07/2008 15:23:37
And still the unionists bang on about the moral high ground and the SNP whilst ignoring british war crimes in Iraq.

Moral values, many of them don't know what they are far less care about them.

So long as it's far away it doesn't matter to them, as I said before they take hypocracy to a new low.

245

monkey man,

14/07/2008 15:26:58
# 287

If every "faith" in Scotland demanded the "right" to their own schools the country would be bankrupt.
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Molly Weirs wrung out gusset.,

14/07/2008 15:28:00
Is there a simian faith school?
247

Alan B,

14/07/2008 15:28:08
#284 ThomasP

I am not talking about whether people are educated in other religions. I am talking about having kids growing up with a diverse mix. Wanting people to grow up with friends of other religions.

I just feel keeping kids artificially apart is not beneficial.

As to ur specific question. I do not know. The non dom school i went to in the 80s did not mention or talk about other religions only christianity. That may have changed.

I personal would be happy for religion to remain outside school with maybe a cursory look at all the big relgions from an educational point of view. Or to have a component were people of differing religions can take part in their own religion through specific assemblies or after school clubs.
248

beeree,

back from the local 14/07/2008 15:29:23
#268 "There is nothing stopping Catholic parents from sending their kids to non-demoninational schools, but, there is no evidence of that happening, so, where is your evidence?"

Try peer pressure. Religious apartheid is evil. The children have no choice but to be indoctrinated for one & against the other. And before you start squealing that the schools don't do that, the playgrounds and the ethos do.

If you have any doubts about that try and find a bluenose at the local RC school or a tim at the state school in Easterhouse.

Such a hegemony of views would not be found anywhere in the UK. There is no moral defence for religious apartheid
249

Number 6,

Germany 14/07/2008 15:29:57
283 Another ignorant comment i'm afraid. What makes you people think you have a clue what it's like in a Catholic school. Did you people have no Catholic friends when you were young? Were the kids in the same street as you not catholics. Were they any different from you. These are not madrases. Religion takes up no more than a couple of hours a week and is not always christianity. Where do you lot get your hate filled garbage from?
I wonder how many of you are members of the Orange Order, just take a look at the "Promise" members make. Exclusivley anti-catholic, promising to not let a Catholic have anything to do with your children etc etc,. Nothing but ignorance drenched in fear.

Of course there is never any discussion about closing such a dreadful movement down. I was appalled when I read the full promise taken. How on earth that can be allowed, in a civillised society, is anyones guess.

Incidentally, Catholics and Protestants do not follow seperate religions. Protestants are a breakaway sect, nothing more . Your still Christian. But of course, that's the level of ignorance the debate on Religion in Scotland is up against.
250

monkey man,

14/07/2008 15:30:20
# 287

Children will also play outside school with their schoolmates. Not always, but mostly.
251

Miss H,

14/07/2008 15:30:36
289 What do you do when a school is 90% Muslim then – as some schools in Glasgow are? Effectively they are already Muslim schools in a sense (so everyone getting hot under the collar about the idea should calm down a bit).

Do you start to set quotas? Schools must not be over 50% one faith or another so that people can mix? The thing is that most schools in Scotland will be 90%+ white Christian. You could end up bussing children to schools miles away if you started to go down that road to be the token minority.

All in all I think we just need to make the best of the education system we already have.

252

Molly Weirs wrung out gusset.,

14/07/2008 15:32:05
# 298

Yep, you know the old saying, "Human see, human do."
253

monkey man,

14/07/2008 15:33:13
# 297

What have the Orange Order got to do with faith schools.?
254

Miss H,

14/07/2008 15:33:53
292 No we wouldn't. It wouldn't cost any more than we already spend. Not that I am advocating faith schools for all, I am pointing out that denominational schools in Scotland are part of the comprehensive system, not separate from it. That is another way in which Scotland is different to England by the way. In England faith schools are not part of the comprehensive system.
255

,

14/07/2008 15:34:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
256

Alan B,

14/07/2008 15:35:11
#287 James

Would have to disagree with u. It is not that a religious school will encourage sectarianism but more whether keeping kids artificially separate for a big part of their young lives preserves sectarianism that blights ours society.

"Children spend 6 hours a day, 5 days a week in school, and there is nothing to stop them mixing with whoever they want when they are not in school."

That is simply unlikely to happen. U get most of ur friends at school at that age. It is unlikely u will suddenly get friends from other religions if they are artificially kept appart. some might but alot will not.

"Sectarianism is learned at home, not at school."
Sectarianism like racism is learned from division and ignorance and artifical separation. Even if u accept ur point that it is at home and not at school ur solution is not the deal with this blight by having the weight of the school system challenging it.
257

monkey man,

14/07/2008 15:37:46
# 302

Yes indeed the country would be bankrupt. Just recently a Church Of Scotland minister suggested the opening of a new CoS school system to run alongside the current RC equivalent and was told it was too expensive and the cost would be astronomical.
258

Alan B,

14/07/2008 15:41:18
#Miss H

I am not talking about quota and even if a school is 80% muslim it is not a muslim school unless it become a religious school.

I simply do not believe in religious schools. I would like people educated together.

There is big difference from having an official muslim school and it being a religious based school and having a school with a majority of muslims because of catchment.

I believe i benefited from growing up having muslim, hindu and skikh friends at school. I only became aware of the catholic thing when u left school and started my degree where the whole thing about what school u went to became talked about.
259

monkey man,

14/07/2008 15:42:24
#305

The SNP is to blame as they are not only condoning sectarian apartheid but promising its future upholding solely to appeal to the bigot vote.

Shall we separate children in nursery schools also based on a "faith" they don't even know they acquire.?

In fact, let's go the whole hog and have separate offices,factories, buses and trains,etc. They had a system exactly like that somewhere else on the African continent...do we really wish it here.?
260

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 14/07/2008 15:45:22
#106 Grahamski

It is you who is the liar. You are mis-quoting Mason.
261

Alan B,

14/07/2008 15:46:21
#Ken_Fitlike

"School's don't teach separation, society does."

Do not disagree.

I just think it is better to have kids within a geographical area educated together as it breaks down barriers.

Do not think in any way a religious school tries to be sectarian or encourages it. i just think artificially dividing kids is not beneficial.

i would be open to having religious element to accomodate different faiths within a mutli cultural and multi religious school. just would like them sitting in the same class at maths etc and playing with each other (bad turn of phrase :) ) at playtime etc.

do u not think it would we could accomodate different religions worship and education but have all kids attend the same school?

"the kids are almost entirely from the same background because there are no other different cultures"
i have found more racism from rural area than from urban areas. a generalisation i know but that is my perception.
262

monkey man,

14/07/2008 15:55:07
# 312

All very laudable by the SNP if it is only a cosmetic exercise when ignoring the crux issues involved. The SNP also doesn't "embrace" anything but the seedy and vulgar attempt to cultivate votes by playing identity /sectarian politics. This is not unifying the country, indeed it will only polarise communities.

Still no mention of the disapproval of the job discrimination and glass ceiling in these faith schools I notice.
263

Miss H,

14/07/2008 15:56:48
306 Are you daft? You don't need any more schools - it is simply about how they are organised.
264

Anthony,

Glasgow 14/07/2008 15:57:48
I'm not an SNP supporter, but I have to say, I can't fathom how the Scotsman can allocate marks the way it did. Curran couldn't stop interupting other candidates, and seemed to me to lack substance. I also felt the interviewer caught her out at least once.

I thought Mason though not charismatic was solid and competent, and for me didn't come off at all worse than Curran. I felt Rankin was uneasy but did get a little more confident as things progressed. The Lib Dem guy was the most assured, but I felt he was in danger of appearing a little arrogant at points. Here's the proper marks:
Mason: 7, Curran: 7, Rankin: 5, Lib Dem guy: 7.5.

Maybe a slight moral victory for Mason given that Curran clearly thought she could take him before the debate.
265

monkey man,

14/07/2008 15:59:44
#315

You miss the point. There would HAVE to be NEW CoS schools built as there would now be THREE types of school in existence. RC, CoS,and the current non-denom establishments.
266

Alan B,

14/07/2008 16:00:17
#Ken_Fitlike

"Ignorance breeds racism, nothing else"

That was my point. If u are from a remote area where there a no people from an ethnic origin then ur perceptions are made from the media etc. As such this breeds ignorance.

"That is a generalisation and unfounded."

I have just come across alot more racist remarks from social groups i know in rural areas than in urban areas. But as i say it is a generalisation based on my own experiences. ie terminology used etc that u are much less likely to come across within an urban social crowd largly becuase it is difficult to live in a city and not have a diverse group of friends.
267

Anthony,

Glasgow 14/07/2008 16:03:50
No 6 (13) - If Catholics aren't to be allowed to hold office if they have loyalty to the Pope (though that only applies to religious matters - not political), where do you stand on all the muslim and Indian politicians holding office in this country, but who hold dual nationality? I heard a female Mayor from England recently state that she saw this Country as her second home after her 'motherland' of India!

Also, where do you stand on all the non-British people who have a vote in our local and european elections because they belong to another EU member state, or hold refugee status?
268

Jimmy the Pie,

14/07/2008 16:09:51
# 319 Hawkeye the Noo,

Very good post.

I agree 100%
269

Alan B,

14/07/2008 16:16:40
#Ken_Fitlike

Agree to some extent. Just think proximity to different cultures is the best education. It is not really about classroom type of education of what a muslim or hindu is meant to believe or cultural event. Mixing with people is the best way to break down barriers and to some extent showing their is little difference between us.

That is not to say as u point out u do not have "appalling racism projected to immigrants in many of Glasgow's estates by those that live cheek and jowl beside them".


270

monkey man,

14/07/2008 16:21:07
#314

Your naivete is quaint. Unfortunately we do not exist in a country which isn't riven with division and sectarianism, especially the west coast and central regions. This blight is also engendered and perpetuated generation after generation by the sectarian apartheid in our education system.

Instead of pandering to bigotry, the SNP should be genuinely attempting to unify the country by ending this pernicious root of sectarian animosity which is the apartheid school system. It is the elephant in the room which the SNP ignores.
271

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 14/07/2008 16:25:44
Interesting comparison made by#112 between the Govan byelection and this one.However,while I agree that Sillers was an outstanding charismatic candidate,the situation is different today since the SNP are the Scottish government,and the SNP candidate Johm Mason brings in his own strenghts.A letter in the Gaurdian yesterday by a Labour suporter illustrates this:

"Labour could lose Glasgow East.I lived there for 18 years and saw membership of the Labour party collapse.One important factor,not mentioned is the SNP candidate,John Mason.He is leader of the SNP group on Glasgow council.John lives in the area,is a hard working councillor who has built up an SNP following.He is a leader at Easterhouse Baptist Church and well known in other churches in the area.He is to the left of new Labour and will draw votes.As one of his friends,I respect him as a politician,but I am labour.

The writer(Bob Holman) went on to suggest that in order to win,Labour needed to move back to a socialist agenda that resonated with the needs of the local population.Unfortunately for Labour,the SNP is in a position to deliver the agenda that is valued by voters in Glasgow East.Abolishing prescription charges and reintroduving free education,putting more police on the beat,abolishing the drink culture,freezing council tax,lowering NHS waiting times,and campaigning for action on fuel poverty and soaring road tax,means that the SNP have already captured the agenda proposed by Bob Holman.

Whatever the outcome of this by election,the so called Labour heartlands are shrinking,and we moving to a position where there are very few "safe seats" in Scotland.Politics is getting more interesting.


272

Scottish 'N British,

14/07/2008 16:49:04
Any suggestion that Roman Catholics would vote SNP and shun Scottish Labour, etc, because it is a Unionist party, is the politics of ignorance and an insult to the Roman Catholics community.

It has never occurred to me that Roman Catholics have ever been some kind of group of Fifth Columnists.

With respect to all concerned, Scotland and Great Britain is their country, as it is mine.
273

monkey man,

14/07/2008 16:53:06
# 326

What you call a little sectarian hoo ha is important enough for your hero Alex Salmond to immerse himself and his party deep within it. What does that tell you.?

My "bile", as you put it,isn't against Catholic schools but against the very idea of ANY religion indoctrinating children for 11 years minimum with a monocultural outlook on life.

It is this immoral and unethical system which has kept the sectarianism repeating itself generation after generation. Everyone knows the root cause of where bigotry stems but puts their collective heads in the sand in their refusal to confront it.
274

Miss H,

14/07/2008 16:53:28
You’re loopy Monkeyman.

Glasgow is most certainly not riven with sectarianism. Blight? Apartheid? You've lost it there totally.

None of the voters I have spoken to in Glasgow East has brought up embryology, abortion or the Catholic Church. They don't care - no matter what foot they kick with.

It’s a small bunch of people in the media and self-appointed spokespeople like the ludicrous James MacMillan that go on and on and on and on about the so-called 'Catholic' vote issue because they are obsessed with it. I think a lot of them maybe came from working class families way back and imagine that being obsessed with sectarianism is like getting back to their roots. Poor luvvies.

But it is not a real issue in this by-election only with the loony fringe – like you.
275

LEAL,

14/07/2008 16:57:08
How much of a swing is required to oust Brown from his Kirkcaldy seat at the next general election?
276

monkey man,

14/07/2008 16:59:37
# 329

I didn't mention Catholics in Glasgow East by election. I mentioned the Catholic Church attempting to make the election a sectarian issue by playing the sectarian card against Labour.
277

,

14/07/2008 16:59:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
278

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 17:07:42
#279 Scottish 'N British

The Lib Dem candidate is quite right. The SNP are essentially a single issue party, more of a coalition really, bound together only by their shared motivation to break up the UK and by their rigid discipline.

Two simple examples. Compare and contrast...

Jim Mather, SNP Minister for Enterprise, Energy and Tourism has said: “We want more millionaires, and any notion that an independent Scotland would be a left-wing country is delusional nonsense.” Most Scots, he said, “have enough experience of left-wing policies to know that they only make matters worse.”

Whereas Alex Salmond used to openly support the idea of a “Scottish Socialist Republic”, and in a interview published on 28th April 2007, said: “I am a social democrat … Social democracy is part of the socialist pantheon”.

Which position is tenable? When will the papered-over cracks reappear?
279

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 17:08:35
#332TimW1234

Congratulations. You win the prize for the most distasteful post of the day.
280

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 17:13:19
#288 Ken_Fitlike

I'll ignore your baseless insult and instead simply provide some information on the development of the most widely accepted wording of the national anthem.

Three useful links for an overview:

http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/features/articles/monscot.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Save_the_Queen#.22Standard.22_British_version
http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page5010.asp

Two specific references showing that the anti-Jacobite verse was abandoned:

Richards, Jeffrey (2002). Imperialism and Music: Britain 1876 to 1953. Manchester University Press, p.90. ISBN 0719045061. "A fourth verse was briefly in vogue at the time of the rebellion, but was rapidly abandoned thereafter: God grant that Marshal Wade...etc"

"The history of God Save the King": The Gentleman's Magazine, Vol 6 (new series), 1837, p.373. "There is an additional verse... though being of temporary application only, it was but short-lived...[but]...it was stored in the memory of an old friend of my own... 'Oh! grant that Marshal Wade... etc.'

For the three-verse version, see also:

Mackay, Charles (1851). The Book of English Songs: From the Sixteenth to the Ninteenth Century, p.203.

White, Richard Grant (1861). National Hymns: How They are Written and how They are Not Written. Rudd & Carleton, p.42.

Hymns Ancient and Modern, Revised Version (1982). SCM-Canterbury Press Ltd, p.504. ISBN 0907547060.
281

,

14/07/2008 17:18:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
282

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 17:18:24
#335 Hawkeye the Noo

You've overplayed your hand there, but I would broadly agree with the basis of your criticism. That said, perhaps I'm not entirely objective, as my personal view on the embryology issue would, I suspect, be fairly close to Mason's, albeit for different reasons.
283

Media 1,

cape town 14/07/2008 17:21:35
I guess the secterian question is always going to draw a different reponse depending on who you speak to. I spent two years in Glasgow not that long ago and if someone asked me about secterianism in that city I can only offer them information based on my experiences, which would be no sectrian incidents to report. I used the bus, the subway, the trains and from time to time I walked throughout the city for two years without a problem and without witnessing an incident.
Others will offer you a different response, but I guess it all depends on what the person looks for in a city. If you want that sort of problem you will find it, no problem, but I got the impression you really needed to look for it.
I did hear religiously motivated songs eminating from a small bar near the Gallowgate next door to the Barrowland, but that was within the context of an Old Firm game.
Also, I dont ever remember any person I worked with looking across the room at a good looking girl and wondering what religion she was. It didnt matter, all that mattered was that she was nice to look at, end of story and likewise for the girls looking at the guys, religion was NEVER an issue. So Glasgow in my eyes is clean, but suffers a bad rep because of the history with their two football teams.
I am not an SNP fan, but I doubt very much they are more inclined to favour any demonination over another, that would be ridiculous.
Many people hold reservations about the Church of Scotland or about the RCC or about the Muslim faith, but that does not mean they harbour resentful feelings toward people of those particular faiths.
Scotland is a good country with less problems than most nations suffer.
284

Boggle fey the Bog,

14/07/2008 17:30:52
256 AM2,Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 14:40:57 and again at
336 AM2,Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 17:13:19

For your education!!

There are SIX verses in the UK national anthem V1 to 5 are pretty whimsical psycophantic ramblings, but the sixth reproduced here in full as rabidly anti Scottish

6. Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the Queen!

The anthem was, allegedly, first sung in 1745 by Jacobite's at the landing of the Bonnie Prince, without the sixth verse, and probably with French lyrics as it is claimed that it was written by a Frenchman, Jean-Baptiste Lully (based on an old French Hymn) to be used as the 'Old Pretenders' Anthem.(see link below)

http://ingeb.org/songs/godsaveo.html

Subsequently 'hi-jacked' by the English for use as the UK anthem.

The 'sixth', anti Scottish verse is still included in the 'National' anthem today.

As a matter of interest England has never officially adopted a 'National Anthem', which makes the Song even more reprehensible, as it is unofficial, but with 'Official' blessing, as it was and is played on official occasions.

BOT:
Wasn't it Churchil who said, that if the Irish (Catholics) gave any trouble, he would Play the Orange Card, so it would appear that Broon is trying a version of that, by moving the 'Embryo Bill' to the back burner, hoping to play the 'Catholic Card' against the SNP.
I just hope that the good citizens of the east end don't get fooled again, and go out on Thurs 24th July and vote for the only party that cares for Scotland and her people.

I'll give you a hint here, it hasn't got a London Office, and is not Imperial, Federal or Unionist in nature.

John Mason SNP for Glasgow East on Thur 24 July 08

285

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 17:31:50
#338 Hen Broon

I withdrew nothing. Want me to post those quotes again? Like Traquir, you're another one who thinks that quoting people back at themselves can constitute defamation. Please... you're no Angus MacNeil!
286

Graham Simpson,

Vancouver 14/07/2008 17:31:57
Like Peter Curran's nbr 32 excellent post I too am dismayed by the interference of the church and other sectarian interventionists in this by-election. Scotland will soon be independent and we should start now to write a Scottish Constitution that will be a model of secular democracy and consequently forbid all levels of government from funding or assisting for any reason, religious groups and practices.

If we are to be a free and democratic country, competent and prepared to take our place in this modern world... we must get rid of the baggage of the past.
287

Nikostratos,

14/07/2008 17:32:54
#399 AM2


AM2 AM2 AM2 HAVE A LOOK AT WOT THOSE NATS HAVE DONE


http://ourscotland.myfreeforum.org/Broon_Swing_o_meter_about5562.html
288

New Unionist Poster,

14/07/2008 17:36:46
231 and 232 (posts removed)

Who was the prude who reported my posts? What a priggish lot some of you are. I've seen a LOT worse on these boards. Mine was simply a light-hearted response to a previous poster's question.

(.)(.)
289

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 17:37:02
#342 Boggle fey the Bog

You've made a number of unsubstantiated assertions there but your only reference said "this Text and Tune is often credited to Henry Carey, 1740". My two main references in post #336 show that the verse was abandoned not long afterwards, when events rendered it irrelevant. In any case, the song didn't become the national anthem until 1780, at the earliest.
290

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 17:39:41
#341 Hawkeye the Noo

Good post.
291

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 17:41:38
#345 Nikostatos

If an SNP politician ever publishes such an image, please get back to me. ;-)
292

Traquir , Alba,

14/07/2008 17:51:30


I see that AM2 has moved onto another old
Unionista chestnut of deflection which
has yet again nothing to do with the topic
at hand. He has now moved on to attack
the SNP as being too democratic as it includes
many political flavours including liberals,
socialists and conservatives. I guess that
this deflection is at least an improvement
on the outrageous and potentially
slanderous accusation that John Mason
is "almost" a "supremacist", for which no
apology has been forthcoming. Instead AM2
appears to be in a rage that I had
his abuse at #1 removed and he has had three
of my quite reasonable rebuttals of
his offensive behaviour removed (#24,#48, & #56)

In terms of his latest deflection the SNP is indeed
a broad church which contains all political
flavours and shock horror the different
political flavours will have different political
opinions as to how Scotland should be
governed. This is called democracy and it should be
noted that what does unite us is that
the Sovereignty of the Scottish people
is paramount above all else including our
own political interests. This is I am sure is
almost impossible for adherents to British
style democracy to understand, rather they
see no problem with the Scottish nation being
governed again by a right wing Westminster
government for another 10 years or more whilst
over 80% of the Scottish people oppose such
a form of Government. Yep democracy and hypocrisy
British style.

Carry on AM2 you are a one man justification
for Scotland gaining her independence.
I look forward to your apology for your
outrageous slur of calling John Mason
"almost" a "supremacist". Of course perhaps
rather than debate like a man you will just have
this post removed also ?

Saor Alba

293

Traquir , Alba,

14/07/2008 17:52:59
334 AM2, Scotland

"#332TimW1234

Congratulations. You win the prize for the most distasteful post of the day."

Nope you won that prize already with your censored
comment #1. That said #332 would appear to be on
a similar level so perhaps you could share your
prize.
294

Nikostratos,

14/07/2008 18:03:32
#342 AM2

Can you imagine the hoo ha from the 'Nationalists' if that was the beloved Alex swinging in the wind.

Mind not a word shh from them about Gordon I wonder why.
295

it has always been allan,

14/07/2008 18:05:23
all religion does is cause strife and attempts to coerce the ignorant imnto supporting a lot of self seeking otherwise unemployable. apart from killing as many as possible poor unfortunates.

I am always getting bible punchers attempting to save me but I am always polite and courtilise.

However it is about time there was a political enema
296

it has always been allan,

14/07/2008 18:12:34
Brown can think how much he will enjoy his undeserved pesion and remain as the most hated politician of all time
297

Shredder,

14/07/2008 18:21:47
#355 Meths: the Sun's headline was unfair (to the extent that there was no prospect of the SNP's separation agenda actually coming into effect and that many of their over optimistic promises had to be broken anyway).
298

Pilrig.,

Livingston 14/07/2008 18:24:36
114 - DONT MENTION THE WAR !!!!
299

,

14/07/2008 18:27:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
300

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 18:27:41
#350

Traquir, your misplaced invective and characterisation of my criticism of John Mason's attitudes as "abuse" are tedious in the extreme.

Mason said that he welcomes English people to Glasgow. That's good to know, although one might think it shouldn't need to be said. Anyway, he went on to explain why, saying that "it shows they think the city is better than those in England". To some, including me, that will carry a connotation which might be construed as "supremacist".

If you still can't see it, imagine an English Tory politician saying that he's glad Scots are moving to Sheffield, say, as "it shows they think the city is better than those in Scotland". Would you think that was a benign remark or would it raise your hackles? Honestly!
301

If a nat said it, it's not true (v.8),

14/07/2008 18:29:35
342. Nat Claim: "The 'sixth', anti Scottish verse is still included in the 'National' anthem today."

TRUTH: The sixth verse was introduced around 1745 and faded from usage long before the 1790s when it beacme the UK National Anthem.
302

Shredder,

14/07/2008 18:31:48
How exactly was it a gaff for Margaret to claim that a 15% swing to the Nats is progress? Everyone knows that the government’s popularity has hit the buffers after many years in power and that votes which are going to the Tories down south are going to the Nats here. Well done to Margaret in saying it like it is! I’m becoming increasingly convinced that she’d have made a first rate leader in the SP, but it can only be to the benefit of Glasgow East that this political heavyweight has decided to pursue her undoubted promise in Westminster.
303

it has always been allan,

14/07/2008 18:33:26
Traquair was a worthy race horse.
You a re just a bloody hack
304

it has always been allan,

14/07/2008 18:34:06
Brown is the conservatives best advert
305

it has always been allan,

14/07/2008 18:35:03
I am now ashamed of my scottish ancestry.

I would rather be an Albanian
306

If a nat said it, it's not true (v.8),

14/07/2008 18:38:32
367. I'm pretty sure no-one with a brain and adequate drool control cares.
307

Pilrig.,

Livingston 14/07/2008 18:39:17
The great Scottish public are opposed to religious apartheid in education sez Monkey Man.
I suggest it isn't the apartheid bit they object to as much as the religion.
We have apartheid in education viz state and private schools. But that apartheid is apparently acceptable.
308

Pilrig.,

Livingston 14/07/2008 18:41:56
368 - well you can always f*ckin emigrate there.
309

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 18:42:18
#359 Hen Broon

The collection of Niall Aslen's sayings were indeed removed from my blog. They were put there in order to set the scene while I took the time to dissect his publication. The intention was to show how biased a source he is. But in the event they drew too much ire from you and a couple of others, so they were too much of a distraction.

I'll answer the rest of your post later.
310

If a nat said it, it's not true (v.8),

14/07/2008 18:45:27
373. Poster. Very sad but it beautifully proves my point how nats don't appreciate the fun I'm having.

I predict it will be v.9 tomorrow....
311

If a nat said it, it's not true (v.8),

14/07/2008 18:47:59
376. "Scottish AND FRENCH invasion"....I believe the French contingent worried the English more! I doubt a second front (third?) of the long-running Anglo-French wars was appreciated.
312

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 14/07/2008 18:48:02
Isn't the comments from Bob Holmes (a Labour supporter) abot the SNP candidate (see#325) refreshing and in stark contrast to the emotional and abusive comments fequentely made made about politicians on these sites.I wish that more people could be mature enough to adopt his standards.As an SNP supporter,I have no problem with unionist,or those who support other parties,I just hapåpen to disagree with them.

I also think it is time that the SNP attacked the simplistic use of the word seperatist.Independance refers to equal parliaments and does not exclude colaboration with other nations,being being international.and having social relationships with other nations within Britain.Since Scotland already has a seperate parliament and since the aim of the SNP,the Greens,Solidarity and the SSP is increase the powers of that parliament in order that Scotland can talk to the other European countries as an equal,it could be argued that independence is about ending Scotlands current seperation from taking a full international role especially within Europe.Independent couintries within Europe can talk for themselves but recognise the interdependance of the modern world.Independance is the norm and people living in independant countries do not regard themselves as seperatists.
313

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14/07/2008 18:48:13
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If a nat said it, it's not true (v.9),

14/07/2008 18:53:27
381. Might be linked to the shipbuilding industry up the road that has just won billions in UK military orders....that wouldn't exist if the SNP had their way.

Just a thought.
315

If a nat said it, it's not true (v.9),

14/07/2008 18:54:59
384. I suspect we disagree because I have actually read into the TRUE history of this era....and not the nationalist 'Scotland, Scotland, Scotland' version.
316

Traquir , Alba,

14/07/2008 18:56:53
360 AM2, Scotland,

In the classic Alex Salmond style I refer you
to my answers to your first question.
If you are unable to modify your subsequent
questions to the previous answers there
is no real point you asking any more questions.
317

Traquir , Alba,

14/07/2008 18:57:11
So the full ICM poll of Labour on 47% and SNP on 33% is now
fully available :

see - tinyurl.com/5zyad3

Very interesting to see the actual voting and the actual sample
size. The sample size is 516. The number actual mentioning
who they want to vote for was 303 see page 3 first row.
The actual votes were :
Labour - 131, SNP - 124, Conservative 29, Liberal 10, Other 10.
Which translates to 43.23% Labour and 40.92% SNP.
No wonder the unionists are in a blind panic.

It is also interesting to see how various media sources
covered the same story - I wonder if they will restate
their opinion if they bother to read the full results.

The Telegraph:

"Labour set for victory in Glasgow East"
see - tinyurl.com/68qurh

The Herald:

"Poll predicts Labour will cling on to Glasgow East"
see - tinyurl.com/5wtsqq

The Scotsman:
"Poll points to Labour by-election victory"
see - tinyurl.com/6ysk6l

The Sunday Post:

"Labour poll lead crumbles"
"A SHOCK poll in Glasgow East has seen a 15 per cent swing from Labour to the SNP in the first week of the by-election campaign."
see - tinyurl.com/yrf5nk

Ian Dale
"SNP Closing on Labour in Glasgow East"
see - tinyurl.com/5zldxp

Saor Alba
318

Van (not white) Diesel,

Amsterdam & Augsburg 14/07/2008 19:14:56
Bishop Joseph Devine (para 2) is almost certainly right, but for the wrong reasons.
319

Stewart C.,

Stranraer 14/07/2008 19:16:51
If anyone thinks voting Labour will improve their life, please visit:

www.thelabourparty.org
320

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 14/07/2008 19:24:29
I think that a great many of the posts on this topic show how woefully ignorant most people are about what goes on in schools in Scotland, state or otherwise.
My eldest daughter who has now just finished her studies at Glasgow University attended an All Girls Catholic High School in Glasgow.
The fact that my ex-Wife is Protestant and that I am an Atheist was no bar to my daughter attending. The fact that we lived in Greenock when she enrolled was no barrier either.
Fully a quarter of my daughters classmates where Muslim girls. I guess their parents also felt they would do better at School without the distraction of boys. I think that Catholics only made up about 50% of the students in my daughters class.
When it came to religious studies, they were taught the same comparative religion studies curriculum that is taught in the state schools.
A lot of the posts on this thread seem to be from people who know nothing about what goes on in a Catholic school and base their opinions more on rumours or innuendo they may have heard in pub or at their Lodge.
321

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14/07/2008 19:27:37
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,

14/07/2008 19:28:42
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,

14/07/2008 19:29:33
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Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 14/07/2008 19:29:56
What a heap of c r a p the story is anyway. Seems like an excuse fir MacDonnell to award brownie points to Curran.

I once did some research on cannibalism and immediately brought the subject up in public.

The latest opinion on cross-fertilising humans with animals is that the results grow up to troll internet comments sites. So it is obviously happening already, in my opinion.

Back to the "story". Well, there's not much else you can say about it. You are either for, against, don't know or don't care.

That is apart from Labour MPs who have all been told they are for - just ask "8/10" Curran.
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14/07/2008 19:31:44
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14/07/2008 19:32:33
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Traquir , Alba,

14/07/2008 19:47:42
All good points Hen Broon, but in this case
perhaps we should not complain too much. I suspect
that more airtime given to the Banshee of Baillieston
will make the media bias be in our favour for once :)

And of course we have always have youtube :

"Margaret Curran - bitter, bitter, bitter"
see - tinyurl.com/28t286
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14/07/2008 19:52:06
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Nikostratos,

14/07/2008 20:07:13
#401

"My Ofcom complaint has been sent as has yet another to BBC"

Yeah i know saw it in the bin
330

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 14/07/2008 20:09:37
The remarkable thing about the tune to the God save dirge is that it is an old central European folk tune.

Probably brought to these shores by the Hannovarians. So anyone can write any words to the melody and publish it as I cannot believe there can be any copyright to it.

Same as the German anthem.

Life presents a dismal picture
From conception to the tomb
Father has an a n a l stricture
Mother has a prolapsed womb

etc, etc

oh dear, the retard automaton refused a n a l

Hate to see anyone try to comment on grown up medical stuff on here.
331

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14/07/2008 20:10:48
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14/07/2008 20:13:00
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14/07/2008 20:18:30
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Stewart C.,

Stranraer 14/07/2008 20:21:25
#400 Alberto Y Lost Trios Paranoias,

I haven't met Willie Scobie, but I met the former Council Leader, Tommy Sloan (also Labour), who mysteriously failed to hold his seat last year.

I complained to him about the national Labour leadership and he complained to me about them.

Time to escape the false left/right paradigm that offers the illusion of choice.



335

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14/07/2008 20:44:52
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14/07/2008 20:47:21
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14/07/2008 20:49:45
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Nikostratos,

14/07/2008 20:56:04
#411 HEN BROON,

Well! I've never been so insulted.........he he he

Who is my great leader anyway? and as "looking for your wee nuggets of dung" what with looking after me daughters Staffordshire bull terrier (Taz)taking him for his walks .And being meticulous about clearing up his pooh looking for dung is about right....
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14/07/2008 20:57:13
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14/07/2008 21:02:34
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Iainbroch,

Moray 14/07/2008 21:07:20
This by election and Fuhrer Broonies orders that all Liebaah MPs should go over the top in Easterhouse(everyone except for himself that is) is a devious Broonie plot to rid himself of the plotting back stabbers in his own Party.
I note that most of them have disobeyed his commands - fearing that if they entered the no mans land of Glasgow East they would be skinned by the local Apaches.
342

Traquir , Alba,

14/07/2008 21:43:21
420 Kent2,

"Traquir, AM2 can’t up his game as he can’t get himself out of the gutter."

Agreed, sad but true. It would be a start though
if he would at least apologize for calling John Mason
"almost" a "supremacist" which was
removed (#1) by the administrator after I complained
about how offensive it was. We just don't want this
type of gutter blogging on our forums. That said
the standard of Unionist debate is more helping
than hindering the nationalist cause as they
just come across as a bunch of whingers who
appear to frequently have a very low opinion of
Scotland and her capability to thrive as a
nation in her own right.

Slàinte mhor
343

Traquir , Alba,

14/07/2008 21:46:59
For those who may have missed this amongst the Unionist posting of deflection and dross:
NEWSFLASH NEWSFLASH NEWSFLASH

"Labour 14% lead" should have read
"Labour 2.31% lead" !!
So from the Telegraph poll the swing need for the SNP
to take Glasgow East is 1.16% :)

The full ICM poll of Labour on 47% and SNP on 33% is now
available :

see - tinyurl.com/5zyad3

Very interesting to see the actual voting and the actual sample
size. The sample size is 516. The number actual mentioning
who they want to vote for was 303 see page 3 first row.
The actual votes were :
Labour - 131, SNP - 124, Conservative 29, Liberal 10, Other 10.
Which translates to 43.23% Labour and 40.92% SNP.
No wonder the unionists are in a blind panic.

It is also interesting to see how various media sources
covered the same story - I wonder if they will restate
their opinion if they bother to read the full results.

The Telegraph:

"Labour set for victory in Glasgow East"
see - tinyurl.com/68qurh

The Herald:

"Poll predicts Labour will cling on to Glasgow East"
see - tinyurl.com/5wtsqq

The Scotsman:
"Poll points to Labour by-election victory"
see - tinyurl.com/6ysk6l

The Sunday Post:

"Labour poll lead crumbles"
"A SHOCK poll in Glasgow East has seen a 15 per cent swing from Labour to the SNP in the first week of the by-election campaign."
see - tinyurl.com/yrf5nk

Ian Dale
"SNP Closing on Labour in Glasgow East"
see - tinyurl.com/5zldxp

Saor Alba
344

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 21:56:22
#424 Traquir

Ever heard of poll weighting? ICM weight their samples to ensure that they as representative as possible of gender, age, working status, social class, past votes and turnout likelihood.

That last one is particularly interesting. Some 72% of those expressing an intention to vote Labour said they were certain to vote, but the SNP vote in Glasgow East is significantly softer. Only 62% of people planning to vote SNP said they would certainly vote.
345

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 21:58:22
#423 Traquir

I answered your baseless allegation back in post #360, and asked you a question which I note you have ignored.
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 21:59:45
#403 Ken_Fitlike

"The idea of a broad church of ideas really frightens you doesn't AM2."

Erm, no. Why would it?
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Conan the Librarian™,

14/07/2008 22:02:24
425
I've heard of pole vaulting...weighting samples sounds like you'd need rubber gloves.
348

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 22:02:30
#397 Hen Broon

In the Daily Record's words: "Nat nuts... claimed the BBC fire alarm which took Reporting Scotland off air was a unionist conspiracy to censor the SNP campaign launch".
349

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 22:03:39
#428 Conan

Good evening. I'm in two minds. Please help me decide. Do you think Hen Broon's #359 warrants any further reply?
350

monkey man,

14/07/2008 22:08:26
# 418 Ribbonman

Please desist from using sectarian language such as "orange". That is bigotry.

Also the Act Of Settlement of 1701 ensures only an Anglican can be Monarch due to the same also being Head Of The Anglican Churh Of England. No different to how only an RC can be Pope so therefore not sectarian.

As for the National Anthem. It does not refer to "crushing Scots" as a nation but "rebellious Scots" preaching sedition and terrorism. And quite right too.!
351

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 22:10:48
#384 Hawkeye the Noo

You said: "That's why they wrote a verse about the Scots, not the French. You don't sound like you really know much about any of this. You're not Scottish, are you?"

And at that point, the degree of consensus I enjoyed with you earlier breaks down. Firstly because the "you're not Scottish, are you?" slur is distasteful, and secondly there were actually short-lived anti-French verses. One, printed in 1745, was doubly offensive:

From France and Pretender
Great Britain defend her,
Foes let them fall;
From foreign slavery,
Priests and their knavery,
And Popish Reverie,
God save us all.
352

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 22:11:51
#431 Spook

Traquir is presenting unrepresentative raw figures.
353

Conan the Librarian™,

14/07/2008 22:12:06
430
Good Evening AM2
It's what these posts are meant to be about, the free expression of ideas...
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 22:16:41
#437 Spook

Only 59%? He's a disaster. What are the others thinking?

I'll ask you too. Should I respond further to the accusatory post #359?
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Conan the Librarian™,

14/07/2008 22:19:20
432
Evening Spook, hows it hanging.
Has you know who gone furry boots yet?
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 22:19:34
#438 Spook

No I don't naws wit urs meens! ICM is a member of the British Polling Council and abides by their standards. That's not cooking the figures!
357

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14/07/2008 22:19:49
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ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 14/07/2008 22:20:37
Nikostratus prove that that illistration was done by a nat and whilst your doing that and as your so concerned over horrific goings on, your views on the torture and murder of Iraq's as admitted this week by the MOD, should there be a war crimes trial and who should be on trial?
359

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 22:21:58
#442 Hen Broon

Why are you so vitriolic?
360

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 22:23:58
#442 Hen Broon

Everyone else sees "Truely English" as a nationalist troll. Why can't you?
361

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14/07/2008 22:25:04
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14/07/2008 22:25:04
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 22:25:13
#442 Hen Broon

Unionism and nationalism are two alternative perspectives.

Why do you imagine that your perspective is right and the other is "corrupt?
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14/07/2008 22:26:12
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 22:27:00
#442 Hen Broon

Re: "reveal your id on here"

Please do not try to intimidate me. It almost worked. Not any more.
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 22:27:50
#442 Hen Broon

Why do you imagine that abuse constitutes "filleting" your opponent?
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Alba Abú,

Dunedin 14/07/2008 22:28:36
433 .. You talk nonsense. The act of settlement states clearly that only "papists and those marrying a papist will not be worthy to wear the crown of England" That means in short that anyone except a Roman Catholic can become monarch of England. The present English monarch like those before her,does not legislate for the Anglican church, so therefor the English monarch does not have to be Anglican. The Pope does legislate for his church, so it would not make sense in having a Protestant Pope.


Ribbonman is correct when he uses the word orange,and bigot together.Dont take my word for it,just read the orange promise.
368

Conan the Librarian™,

14/07/2008 22:30:01
449
By the quality of the politicians who support Unionism AM2?
369

boudica,

Glasgow 14/07/2008 22:32:21
Devine is a tad late taking any Moral High Ground and Traquir ..shouldnt you be busy with Wee Ecks speeches ? or have you deligated that to another of the Natz party underlings ? for a Party Officianado ..you have way too much time on your hands and tell me did you sign the £200.000 Check for Osama Saeed and his Religious Fanatics Group? or were you fly enough to get the wee office dogsbody to do it ?
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 22:33:27
#452 Spook

1. Your "many monikers" accusation is getting very tired.

2. Where possible I present sources for any figures I present. Take Traquir to task if cooking figures is your bugbear du jour.

3. Although I'm perhaps more "Toryish" than anything else, I don't support any particular party.
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14/07/2008 22:35:13
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 22:37:21
#455 Conan

Well, let's see. Thinking about Westminster, with 616 MPs from Labour, the Conservatives and the Lib Dems combined, and the grand total of six SNP MPs, what sort of unionist-to-nationalist “sleaze ratio” might you expect to find? Around 100:1, perhaps?
373

boudica,

Glasgow 14/07/2008 22:38:00
429 AM2...I actually think Hen Broon is the Nat Nut refered to in that article ..he is a Paranoid Andriod ..like most Natz seem to be...hehe
374

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 14/07/2008 22:38:24
Niko, that question of mine was posted about 20 mins ago, wheres your answers?
375

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 22:39:48
#459 Spook

Don't worry. You can read most of what was post #1 in post #256.
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14/07/2008 22:40:53
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ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 14/07/2008 22:46:21
Boudica, thats it don't let the truth get in the way of a good lie, by the way why don't you try and help Niko out with the questions I asked him/her back at 443, you can ignore the first one if you don't know what he's on about.
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 22:46:36
#463 Spook

You just saw me post that Gordon Brown is a disaster.

You may have heard me sharply criticise Alex Salmond over his phrase “anti-Scottish bile that emanates from the rank of Mr Cameron's MPs”.

What do you want me to say? I'm not a Tory. I just happen to currently agree with them slightly more than the others, on average. That wasn't always the case, and it might not be again.
379

Conan the Librarian™,

14/07/2008 22:48:13
461
LOL. A fair comment, but I'm sure you will get an answer for this from your files: has there EVER been an SNP MP or MSP corruption scandal?
Local government, I'm sure there was, being the nature of the beast.
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 22:48:27
#466 boudica

I'm no fan of Osama Saeed, but have you a source for that?
381

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14/07/2008 22:50:21
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LEAL,

14/07/2008 22:50:23
The union is on shaky ground.Which ever way Glasgow East goes,the swing to the SNP shows thatpeople are prepared to vote for other than the Labour party,even in its safest seats.
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14/07/2008 22:51:46
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14/07/2008 22:52:44
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Conan the Librarian™,

14/07/2008 22:55:36
472
474
Number:6. And have either of them been charged and found guilty, other than by the medium of the Daily Record?
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Traquir , Alba,

14/07/2008 22:57:14
425 AM2,Scotland

"2. Where possible I present sources for any figures I present. Take Traquir to task if cooking figures is your bugbear du jour."

Hmm, the figures I presented (with source
attached) are the pre-cooked figures
raw from ICM's own poll. The cooked figures that you
prefer are the once that were trumpeted by
the Scottish media.

NEWSFLASH NEWSFLASH NEWSFLASH

"Labour 14% lead" should have read
"Labour 2.31% lead" !!
So from the Telegraph poll the swing need for the SNP
to take Glasgow East is 1.16% :)

The full ICM poll of Labour on 47% and SNP on
33% is available at :

see - tinyurl.com/5zyad3

Very interesting to see the actual voting and the actual sample size. The sample size is 516.
The number actual mentioning
who they want to vote for was 303 see page 3 first row.
The actual votes were :
Labour - 131, SNP - 124, Conservative 29,
Liberal 10, Other 10.
Which translates to 43.23% Labour and 40.92% SNP.
No wonder the unionists are in a blind panic.

The Sunday Post appears to have been more
on the ball than the supposed leading Scottish
newspapers :

"Labour poll lead crumbles"
"A SHOCK poll in Glasgow East has seen a 15 per cent swing from Labour to the SNP in the first week of the by-election campaign."
see - tinyurl.com/yrf5nk

Enjoy cooking the books AM2 it appears to be
your forté' :)

Saor Alba
387

Conan the Librarian™,

14/07/2008 22:57:43
474 And what is a vile anti-English song anyway?
388

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 22:59:08
#470 Conan

Corruption scandal? Not since I started taking an interest, although there have been a few close calls this past year:

• “Cash for access” allegations about SNP conference
• Bute House dinner with the SNP’s top three donors and their wives
• Jim Mather saying he would put shareholdings into a blind trust but backtracking
• Stewart Stevenson having to sell his shareholdings to avoid conflict of interest
• Alex Salmond meeting with Donald Trump’s people hours before application called in
• Electoral Commission not notified about 2004 bequest to Hamilton SNP until 2007
• Allegation by Greens about Souter and not re-regulating the bus network
• Salmond’s intervention with SNP donor Donald Macdonald’s planning application
• Sturgeon allegedly broke ministerial code over Go Ape planning application
• Brian Souter may receive £3.3m in subsidies for the Forth hovercraft
• “Cash for Cronies”: Osama Saeed’s foundation received £215k from the SG
• SNP councillor seeking to put street where he owns a flat to the “top of the political agenda”.
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14/07/2008 22:59:28
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14/07/2008 22:59:58
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 23:00:28
#479 Traquir

Umm, what you call the "pre-cooked" figures from ICM is their unweighted data. Tell you what: complain to the British Polling Council and see how far it gets you!
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14/07/2008 23:00:50
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Conan the Librarian™,

14/07/2008 23:02:25
481
But nobody resigning/spending more time with their family/imprisoned?
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Conan the Librarian™,

14/07/2008 23:03:30
John Mason is on Newsnicht.
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14/07/2008 23:03:44
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subrosa,

14/07/2008 23:03:57
Anyone know if I can get parked near Baillieston Road office tomorrow?
397

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 23:04:34
#476 Spook

I left out one other factor which is holding the SNP together at present. Success. Remember how they fought like ferrets in the proverbial sack in the run-up to John Swinney being elected leader?

Politicians (some of them) always succumb to sleaze. It happens on the way down. Nest-feathering, I suppose. Reprehensible, but then aspects of human nature are. It happened to John Major's Tories. It is happening to Labour. It will happen to the SNP. At a very basic level, party politics is just a big slow-moving pendulum.
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ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 14/07/2008 23:06:22
Oh well Niko and Boudica, you've had long enough, so I'm off to bed, remember folks, it will look pretty naff if you start trying to make points after I have gone, oh and Boudica you should watch what you say there are laws you know, calling someone a would be bombers!
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 23:09:08
"I think we all take a hard line". Hmm.
400

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14/07/2008 23:10:02
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Conan the Librarian™,

14/07/2008 23:10:05
Good Night ochone.
402

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14/07/2008 23:11:03
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Conan the Librarian™,

14/07/2008 23:11:22
494
Independence or Independence lite AM2?
404

Conan the Librarian™,

14/07/2008 23:12:47
500
for Independence
405

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 23:12:58
Kenny's not going to be impressed with Mason not wanting to empty Scottish prisons. ;-)
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14/07/2008 23:13:30
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boudica,

Glasgow 14/07/2008 23:13:41
460 ..12)Vote rigging in Birmingham postal voting scandal.
SIX middle-aged Muslim men, all pillars of their communities, won seats on Britain’s biggest local authority in the most corrupt election campaign since the Victorian era.

Vote-riggers exploited weaknesses in the postal voting system to steal thousands of ballot papers and mark them for Labour, helping the party to take first place in elections to Birmingham City Council.

They believed that their cheating would be hidden for ever in the secrecy of the strong boxes where counted votes are stored, never suspecting that a judge would take the rare step of smashing the seals and tracing the ballots back to the voters. Election corruption has been so rare in the past 100 years that lawyers have struggled to find examples since the late 19th century, when Britain was adjusting to the novelty of universal male suffrage.
You will note that these 6 Postal Riggers were from the Muslim Community and that this practice is the Norm in most of their home Countries it is a "Cultural" thing and I hope that you also noted that this is is a very rare occurance in the UK and Like Osama Saeed their Alligeince is to their Religion first above all...I doubt they got over £200.000 for that ..
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 23:15:49
#487 Conan - That's right.

#488 Spook - None. Give it time.

#497 Spook - Patience, young man, patience!
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 14/07/2008 23:16:22
A very strong performance by John Mason on Newsnicht.
410

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 23:16:28
#502 Number:6

He's not exactly dynamic, is he? A safe enough interview though.
411

Traquir , Alba,

14/07/2008 23:17:56
465 AM2, Scotland

"Don't worry. You can read most of what was post #1 in post #256."

Most of the post, but not the outrageous
slander where you referred to John Mason
as "almost" a ""supremacist". The
post had absolutely nothing to do with the topic
at hand but was just a feeble attempt
at deflection and a sad attempt to inject
racism into the thread.

I suggest you have the decency to apologize.


Saor Alba
412

Scottish not British,

14/07/2008 23:18:19
Why is the opinion of a religious figure considered important in this?
Keep religion in the church and home and out of schools and politics then maybe people will start to identify as Scots not as member of a religion or a country that is not Scotland and stop waving those flags and this will go along way to lessening the sectarianism (I doubt it can ever be eradicated- too many neds looking for an excuse to start a fight).
413

Rufus T. Firefly,

14/07/2008 23:18:25
I would say he never put a foot wrong to be fair.

The interviewer however, never really asked any deep probing questions.
414

boudica,

Glasgow 14/07/2008 23:20:48
493..So what would you call those 2 that failed to blow Glasgow Airport to bits ? they were Failed Homicide Bombers , Thank God for that ..so drop the PC mince and Osama did and does empathise with them ..He well versed in the Pratice of Taqiyya...go google that one ..
415

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 23:21:21
#507 Traquir

As you keep levelling the same accusation, I'll answer again.

Mason said that he welcomes English people to Glasgow. That's good to know, although one might think it shouldn't need to be said. Anyway, he went on to explain why, saying that "it shows they think the city is better than those in England". To some, including me, that will carry a connotation which might be construed as "supremacist".

If you still can't see it, imagine an English Tory politician saying that he's glad Scots are moving to Sheffield, say, as "it shows they think the city is better than those in Scotland". Would you think that was a benign remark or would it raise your hackles? Honestly!
416

boudica,

Glasgow 14/07/2008 23:21:58
Practice or even Practioner of Taqiyya
417

subrosa,

14/07/2008 23:22:47
# 498

Thanks that's good to know. Will I need sandwiches? :)
418

LEAL,

14/07/2008 23:23:39
505 connaught.
Better than yesterday?
419

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 23:26:12
#511 boudica

Osama Saeed may be criticised for a number of things, but where is your source for this allegation?
420

Traquir , Alba,

14/07/2008 23:27:15
501 AM2, Scotland,UK

"Kenny's not going to be impressed with Mason not wanting to empty Scottish prisons. ;-)"

The ex-leader of the "Scottish" Labour Party
Henry McLeish who proposed this likely won't be
to impressed either. However, unlike the sheep
like approach of the Labour party people are allowed
to have different views.

I for one have not had a chance to read the
88 page report of recommendations from the
independent commission on Scottish Prisons
which was chaired by Henry McLeish so
will not comment yet.

see - tinyurl.com/6eagw4 & tinyurl.com/6h2mw3

I would however assume that the people on the
commission are far more qualified to have
come up these recommendations than the
ignorant scaremongers who are using this
as a political football to try and terrify
the electors - quite pathetic.

Saor Alba
421

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 14/07/2008 23:31:11
And now the German national anthem with words by a generation of squaddies before me. There is nothing illegal in this.

Spaces in words are for the retard automaton.

Life presents a dismal picture
From conception to the tomb
Father has an a n a l stricture
Mother has a prolapsed womb

Brother Bill has been deported
For a ho m o s e x u al crime
And the maid has just a b o r t e d
For the 42 second time

During Grandma's menstruation
No one laughs and no one smiles
We are all to busy working
Crushing ice for Grandpa's p i l e s

But we are not broken hearted
And we are not up the spout
Auntie Mabel has jusr f a r t e d
Blown her ar$ehole inside out

It actually sums up a side of the German psyche pretty well

Now for God help the Q u e e n.

422

boudica,

Glasgow 14/07/2008 23:33:07
Mason is a halfwit that doesnt give a flying haggis for the East End he has an Agenda and that comes before the needs of the People of the East End as with all Nationlists their wants and needs are at the forefront of all they do and the People are at the end of the list after all they know what is best for us and they are doing it for our own Good ..This all sounds so familiar doesnt it
‘All nationalist controversy is at the debating-society level’ - partly because of nationalism’s disconnection from reality which rides rough-shod over complexities for the sake of generating point-scoring simplicities; partly because nationalist debate is not about engaging with others but is about satisfying the nationalist’s own fantasies of rightness and conquest
423

Traquir , Alba,

14/07/2008 23:35:45
512 AM2,Scotland

As I told you already I will not debate racist
undertones that you have yet again
injected into these forums,
rather I will just continue to report them
and no doubt they will continue to be removed
by the administrators. If you want to weasel out
and back track that yet again you have
been misunderstood I suggest you peddle your
pleading to the administrator - it will not
work with me, and apparently it has not
worked with them either :)

Up your game sir, and try to have some sense
of decorum.

Saor Alba


424

Conan the Librarian™,

14/07/2008 23:36:59
524
I think he's boasting Spook;-)
425

Pink Sombrero,

14/07/2008 23:37:40
503/511


What disgusting, nauseating racist, steoetypical poison from the uber unionists as usual. Shameful
426

Pink Sombrero,

14/07/2008 23:40:33
512. Disgusting, AM2 and the ultra hard line unionists, who are also well associated with islamophobia, yet again try to inject racism into discussions here.

It is the most pityful and repulsive aspect of the hard line ultra unionist tactic that they constantly seek to inject anti-islamic sentiments, or anti-english, or anti-asian, or anti-any minority that suits there divisive agenda, into discussion about serious issues.

For shame
427

Pink Sombrero,

14/07/2008 23:41:41
523. Correct, if he gave a flyin haggis for the east end he would live there, like Margaret Curran (I assume you mean Newlands in a £750,000 house)
428

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 14/07/2008 23:42:49
And I suspect Tripod is actually a quadroped.
429

AM2,

Scotland,UK 14/07/2008 23:43:16
#522 Spook

Circumstantial?

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2006/11/08/newsstory8943089t0.asp
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1605653,00.html
430

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 14/07/2008 23:44:35
And as for "Boudica". I reckon she's paid to be on here.
431

Pink Sombrero,

14/07/2008 23:46:24
492. "A big slow moving pendulum of sleaze" - that is the unionist manifesto from the arch unionist.

We say no, Scotland deserves better, and just because you unionists accept sleaze, oscillating the snouts in the trough from one side to the other, does not mean everyone else accepts your bankrupt and repulsive view of corruption as the normal order of politics.

But thanks for posting this, the "unionist sleaze pendulum" manifesto as the limit of your ambition and aspiration - says everything we need to know about unionist "aspiration".