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Published Date: 23 December 2008
STRICTER regulation of banks' lending is needed to ensure there is no repeat of the "credit bubble" that led to the current global economic crisis, the deputy governor of the Bank of England said last night.
Sir John Gieve's startling admission of the failure to control debt was made on the BBC's Panorama programme. He said the Bank had spotted "some crazy borrowing" and conceded it had been caught by surprise by the extent of the downturn and the impact the £1.4 trillion credit bubble would have on the economy.

The scale of the crisis that led to the government bail-out of institutions such as RBS and HBOS was underlined by Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, who said the financial system "came perilously close to collapse".

RBS received £20 billion, and HBOS and Lloyds TSB are set to receive £17 billion, with the largest part going into HBOS.

Sir John called for the Bank to be given new tools beyond the "blunt instrument" of interest-rate-setting to stave off a future banking crisis.

"We need to develop some new instruments which sit somewhere between interest rates, which affect the whole economy and activity, and individual supervision and regulation of individual banks," he said. "Maybe we need to develop something which bridges that gap and directly addresses the financial cycle and prevents the financial cycle and the credit cycle getting out of hand."

The banking system must never again be allowed to come "so perilously close to collapse", said Mr Darling.

"RBS needed an awful lot of capital," he said. "It's one of the biggest banks in the world, and we now own 57 per cent of it.

"I was very clear that banks had to have a choice. They could go to the markets and raise the money. But we were also clear that two banks in particular, RBS and HBOS, were not going to be able to raise money in the markets and the only place to come to was the government. I was very clear even before the turbulence of that week that, whatever we did, we had to do it for the entire banking system."

Mr Darling described rescue talks with bankers that took place on the Sunday night and Monday morning of the week in question.

"I had meetings all day on the Sunday and then, at 10pm, just when everything was agreed as far as I was concerned, inevitably when you deal with a bunch of bankers, they started trying to reopen it.

"So I said at about 1am, 'OK reopen it if you want. I'm going to my bed. If you haven't agreed it by five o'clock, then you're on your own'. So happily when I woke up at five o'clock, we'd got an agreement."

Sir John echoed the Chancellor's view, saying that Britain's banking system came "right to the brink". "Several of our large banks, and I don't want to go into names, were in real difficulty and were having – hour-by-hour, minute-by-minute – to balance the books," he said.

Sir John said the Bank of England "didn't think it was going to be anything like as severe as it turned out to be".

And John Varley, Barclays' chief executive, told the programme: "It seemed increasingly likely as the week went on that one or two of the British banks would not be capable of opening for business the following week, and it doesn't get more extreme than that."

John Letizia, the head of government relations for the British Bankers' Association, said the industry would consider more regulation over debt levels and how much banks could lend.

Banks would welcome a debate about further rules "but we need to ensure the safeguarding of capital does not impede banks' ability to innovate and compete", he said.

Sir John also warned that taxpayers could lose out because of defaults in mortgages held by nationalised banks. "There are some books – Northern Rock, Bradford & Bingley – which clearly have a level of defaults in them," he said.

On the question of interest rates, Sir John said raising them would not have held back surging house prices. "We would have been holding down the level of activity elsewhere in the economy, in manufacturing, in other services, holding down the level of employment at a time when consumer price inflation and earnings were stable and reasonably low," he said.

Economists have blamed low interest rates for fuelling the demand for credit, both in the UK and the United States.

Sir John said the period of growth before this year's crash had not resembled previous boom-and-bust cycles, lacking the typical big increases in earnings, consumption and activity.

"We saw the credit, we saw the house prices, but we did see a fairly stable pattern of earnings, prices and output," he said.

Sir John, who is a member of the Bank's monetary policy committee (MPC), whose job it is to set interest rates, will leave his post next year. He has specific responsibility for financial stability.

Yesterday, the pound took a further slide on the currency markets, as traders took Sir John's comments as a sign the Bank wanted further interest rate cuts in the new year.

Rate cuts tend to weaken demand for a country's currency by reducing the yield on interest-bearing investments.

The Bank has cut its interest rate three times since October, bringing it down by a total of three percentage points to a mere 2 per cent – a 57-year low.

Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, laid the blame for the global financial crisis on a reckless banking system. In an interview published yesterday, he said: "I'm angry – angry we had a banking system where people neither knew the risks they were taking nor were open enough about the problems they had."


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The full article contains 1015 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
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1

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22/12/2008 23:38:49
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22/12/2008 23:40:36
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22/12/2008 23:47:01
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4

Darien,

Panama 23/12/2008 00:25:19
"Bank of England chief calls for tighter lending rules"

Er, sorry, about 10 years too late! Gordon Brownshirts Britain is well and truly bust. Loook out for the bail-out loans soon from oil-rich nations.

Scotland needs to jettison itself from the UK garbage can, quick.
5

Forward not Back,

23/12/2008 00:25:48
Brown has no credibility either. This bubble occurred on his watch as Chancellor while he was changing the rules for the referees.
6

The Strategist,

23/12/2008 00:30:40
If Scotland had been independent then we would now be in the same position as Norway..Financially secure with a well balanced economy and a huge oil fund to back us up.
7

Forward not Back,

23/12/2008 00:42:31
#7 - that's an easy conjecture. With the begging bowl mentality of public sector Scotland, particularly in the West, it is too easy to draw that conclusion.

One thing is for sure - if Scotland had joined the Euro in your scenario the economic imbalances would be worse given that the bulk of revenue would be through oil, priced in dollars.
8

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 23/12/2008 00:46:53
Rufus-T can never resist turning every story into an attack on the SNP even though the SNP is irrelevent to the topic under discussion.

I could see reasons to attack the banks, the regulators even the governments here and abroad, who all allowed unbridled credit and then stand bemused when the system virtually collapses as those who borrowed to their limit against their properties in reliance of future earnings, now wake up and realise it was all a house of cards.

Fearful of debt and unemployment and desperate to reduce their borrowings and spending, they have now embarked on personal austerity and frugality. Nothing governments or banks do now can avert the worst effects of recession. This financial collapse was inevitable as people for the firsat time in a generation seek to live within their means.
9

Conan the Librarian™,

23/12/2008 00:48:50
Oh Rufus...

Step one

We admitted we were powerless over Unionism—that our lives had become unmanageable...
10

lulach mac gille coemgain,

23/12/2008 00:50:28
They make it up as they go along eh - shows why anything a bank manager says is no wiser than ANYBODY elses thought!
11

Conan the Librarian™,

23/12/2008 00:54:45
10
I only ever post as Conan the Librarian™.

Unlike you.

12

Conan the Librarian™,

23/12/2008 01:00:44
See?
13

Conan the Librarian™,

23/12/2008 01:18:13
Good Morning Col.

Perhaps.

I blame Meths.

Wee Spanish shtstirrer.
14

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 23/12/2008 01:23:50

Shylock Holmes ~10,

Linskaill only posts as Linskaill!

Rufus-T-Firefly ~1-3,...'IS CORRECT'! Plus the fact it is all, by far too late, far too late, for the likes of, "Sir John Gieve's" making statement now!

It is all, 'Water under the Bridge' and Salmond lives bridges, as we have seen!

What says 'Mountains' is when our 'Scottish Heritage' was in risk, no-one, but no-one, did a thing!

Failure is tolerated, if one See's one trying, problem being, the ones that could, and I remember the time period well!, one was more interested in,,,

,,,'Playing Daddy' with the 18year old's, telling them the cant purchase, 'Booze Nae More'!, and 'Quickly' hide the cigarette's, 'under the counter'!

Well the seeing of 'Scottish Priorities'!!

Well the seeing why 'People vote Labour'!!

15

Conan the Librarian™,

23/12/2008 01:27:18
Good Morning Charles, I hope you and the DYW are well?
16

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 23/12/2008 01:37:03
Banks have had a monopoly of creating money "out of nothing" since day one which is 1694 in British history (even before the Union!) This credit (or debt money) can be increased or curtailed (as at present) as these power-brokers see fit. It has little (in their eyes) to do with the (potential) productive capacity of people. Otherwise known as the economy.

Lawyer-capitalism which superceded the great financial empires of J P Morgan etc. allowed shareholders (majority shareholdings) to determine the direction of corporations. The great american car makers no longer had to provide a better car for the customer but only make more profits, dividends, and the bonus rewards. Ditto our current energy cartels.

Now there are no longer regional or national banks, credit can be stopped as long's we'll sit on our bahoukies. Maybe setting up and regulating your own local currency is longer something eccentric to do. Like if you want a house built or food grown.
17

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 23/12/2008 01:55:18
Conan ~23,

That was really nice of you to ask and have concern.

I am still here for my DYW being a loyal 'Scotsman', things are not so good, things have changed!

DYW is 'so-so', my caring 'albeit' difficult at these times, go with unknown reward or failure!

Scottish Leadership,....'Right Enough'! :((



A little like this topic, this thread is now, speaking about,
(well I am anyway)

Your Charlie, not the 'Bonnie Prince' (not yet), is a tad of a rebel 101.999% Scottish!, and will,....
.....'Speak-Up' when ones, 'DO-NOT-DO' What they Should Do! (as in elected)

If 'One' Had really, like me 'Cared', like me, about current Issues in life, then 'YES'! BOS may have been saved!.....

...'Putting Your Head',....'Under the Pillow',...and hoping all will be OK! Wont solve anything!

18

Vaward,

23/12/2008 01:55:59
#5

Delusional.

HBOS and RBS were among the top 10 banks in the world! The position they got themselves into is of their own doing. Blaming their downfall on GB, London or England is just plain absurd, not to mention spineless. And if Scotland had been independent when this crisis started then Scotland would be well and truly stuffed about now.
19

Shamus,

Glasgow 23/12/2008 01:57:01
12# You are right the SNP are irrelevant. Not one positive or constructive suggestion by them on the banking crises. They tried to make some political capital but were humiliated. Gordon Broon went tae toon on them.
20

Vaward,

23/12/2008 01:57:03
Whoops. My above comments were directed at #7
21

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 23/12/2008 01:58:32
error on #25 don't ask! this is the amended!

Conan ~23,

That was really nice of you to ask and have concern.

I am still here for my DYW being a loyal 'Scotsman', things are not so good, things have changed!

DYW is 'so-so', my caring 'albeit' difficult at these times, go with unknown reward or failure!



A little like this topic, this thread is now, speaking about,
(well I am anyway)

Your Charlie, not the 'Bonnie Prince' (not yet), is a tad of a rebel 101.999% Scottish!, and will,....
.....'Speak-Up' when ones, 'DO-NOT-DO' What they Should Do! (as in elected)

If 'One' Had really, like me 'Cared', like me, about current Issues in life, then 'YES'! BOS may have been saved!.....

...'Putting Your Head',....'Under the Pillow',...and hoping all will be OK! Wont solve anything!

Scottish Leadership,....'Right Enough'! :((


22

Shamus,

Glasgow 23/12/2008 02:00:46
26# Do not expect the SNP idiots to admit the truth. They live in pantomine world. In fact December is their favourite month.
23

!Ya basta!,

23/12/2008 02:01:24
Rufus, #1 -3, right on the button.

As pointed out by your detractors, the crisis is much bigger of course than Salmond, the SNP and Scotland but it does show once again that, as damn clever as Salmond is, he is essentially opportunistic, short-sighted and tactical. Fundamentally he has a poor grasp of the way the world is today.

Actually, I agree with his vision for an independent Scotland and he may be the best bet to achieve that, but he has a serious lack of substance when it comes to running a country successfully.

Anyway, more relevant to all of us I think is an investigation of how this happened, who is culpable and what changes should be brought in. I hope we have now seen the high water mark of laissez faire capitalism but I am not sure that the b(w)ankers and corporates really have learnt their lesson, even now despite the incredible affirmation of the old socialist truth about capitalism, that is, "private profit, public subsidy". We will have to see I suppose but I am still confused about why us impoverished are being encouraged to seek more credit and spend our way out of the crisis. That is the reactionary cry of a system in crisis, surely we need something more fundamental to change here? Like economically and environmentally sustainable growth, less rampant consumerism, more public sector investment, democratic reform in the West, tighter regulation of markets and a recognition that in many areas the private sector is actually very inefficient. Unfortunately the harder of these lessons is still not learnt even in this crisis.
24

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 23/12/2008 02:02:10


Vaward ~27,

Blame the 'Scotsman News',...'Bogeyman', my post went,...

...'Skew Whiff' Also! :)

25

Shamus,

Glasgow 23/12/2008 02:04:23
26# They are so thick they think HBOS and RBS are Scottish banks. They find it hard comprehending global capitalism.
26

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 23/12/2008 02:06:20


!Ya basta! ~31,

"Rufus" Speaks Truths!, And that is why, he upsets the delusion's, of others!




27

Vaward,

23/12/2008 02:06:37
Look at Ireland! An Ireland that is on the verge of bankruptcy.Why is that?

Ireland doesn't have any banks on the scale of HBOS or RBS, yet it has now gone into huge debt to prop up those puny banks it does have. Indeed Irish debt is nearly up to 1000% of GDP. Ireland is seen as one of the countries most likely to default on loans. Interesting times ahead for the Celtic tiger.
28

Dark Lochnagar,

Symington 23/12/2008 02:14:02
The only people we have to fear is the people in our own nation who who don't have the ingination to see a free Scotland.
29

Shamus,

Glasgow 23/12/2008 02:21:33
35# Scotland is free ya numptie. We are in a Union with other free nations. And a damn fine thing. God Save The Queen.
30

Shamus,

Glasgow 23/12/2008 02:25:03
35# You fear your own people. And who are we! What a nationalist idiot you are. Keep it up the Union needs statements like yours.
31

Dark Lochnagar,

Symington 23/12/2008 02:28:43
The only people we have to fear is the people in our own nation who don't have the imagination to see a free Scotland and sadly this includes Rufus and his little clique. If you can honestly say that this UK has been well run over say, the last 50 years, then Sir I salute you and may that feather sicking out of your little chicken @rse fly proudly tonight. But think, what might have been!
32

Shamus,

Glasgow 23/12/2008 02:37:41
39# If you fear your own people then leave. In any case the SNP idiots are away tae bed. They never had anthing positive to say about banking. Just the traditional SNP WHINGING.
33

Dark Lochnagar,

Symington 23/12/2008 02:37:48
The only thing we need Sir John, is for you to do your job properly!
34

,

23/12/2008 02:42:51
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35

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 23/12/2008 03:03:21
and Prince Prince Phil and all his brood
that support our rugby and the Holyrood.
may he never come back as a virus
but remain with his quips to inspire us

these rebel scot that've read tom paine
we'll section them (by th'mental health act)as all insane

36

Dekester,

Canada's Westcoast 23/12/2008 03:43:15
Great boards these. Thanks to all the posters.

I would love to see an independent Scotland. I was Scots born not British ( whatever that is?)

Surely the nation that had so much to do with international banking in its early days could adapt, and be at the fore front again.

Our Bank of Montreal ( one of our bigger banks.) was founded by a Scot. As were many other financial institutions in North America.

England really is a basket case. Their inner cities are a disaster, and what does the future look like?

We are buying pounds today at around $1.80 (Can) this is close to the exchange rate when Soros initiated the run on the pound.

Of course exchange rates are volatile. However this time is different.

It is likley that the costs of everything (except petrol,) in the UK will be on the up soon.

A further 10% drop in house prices will really see confidence further erode.

All the best.
37

,

23/12/2008 04:03:56
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38

Vaward,

23/12/2008 04:36:54
lol #44

What's wrong with England's inner cities? What a bizarre comment.

What is British? Well, Britain was around long before the English arrived. It was the Romans that put up a division. So anyone born in Britain is British. Hope that helps with your confusion.
39

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 23/12/2008 05:02:58
The future for England might not be as dire as forecast. It can hardly get worse!

Big european projects are in the pipeline - the energy grid land and subsea - new powerstations (a target figure of renewables), new high speed rail. This will take up layoffs in stuff like cars.

Every job will need training and a certificate - this will employ lots of people to do this. When I first mixed morter I knew nothing at all about it - it slid aff the trowel or "wud brak yer wrist" but the plasters I was working for were patient and in twa weeks I had the mixer turning and tea brewed for 8 am.
But now you need a certified chit to do this.

The British Establishment have made a big issue of the Credit Crunch but as banks "create money out of nothing" enough will be resupplied for (english) commerce. Buildings firms have always periodically gone bust and some-one will buy the plant and register a new company under their wife's or dog's name. As house prices fall.

I see big companies as being more and more european operations with british universities and colleges to train the employees for them.
40

,

23/12/2008 05:32:17
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41

Dekester,

Canada's westcoast 23/12/2008 06:06:56
Vaward. Fair enough that is your opinion. Quisling Gogs. I do find it odd that so many posters on these boards seem scared of the future. As for Gordon Brown. He really is a joke.

We visit the UK every year or two, and often mix business and pleasure.

I don't intend to be simply argumentative. However have you been in Coventry,Birmingham,Nottingham, Sheffield or Leeds lately.

Much of the UK has been lulled into a false sense of being wealthy.This was largely fuelled by a real estate "boom"
Of course the sun will always rise and the life will carry on, but to deny Scotland its own destiny simply because one is scared. Is very sad.

We will see, but the future does not look bright from over here.

However I am a proud Scot, and look forward to taking advantage of the recent business down cycle to invest further. With the hope that some year soon Scotland will be independent.

All the best.
42

Vaward,

23/12/2008 06:33:25
"However have you been in Coventry, Birmingham, Nottingham, Sheffield or Leeds lately."

Most of 'em.

Thought regeneration in Leeds was most impressive. Indeed, all those cities have seen impressive regeneration.


43

,

23/12/2008 07:56:28
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44

Conan the Librarian™,

23/12/2008 08:21:57
If you are in such financial straits that you have to use schemes like Farepak, then it's collapse would have hit you much harder than any High St bank.

Does anyone living on benefits really give a flying fig about house prices collapsing in Surbiton?
45

,

23/12/2008 08:47:13
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46

fegan,

Newtownards 23/12/2008 09:21:41
RBS is still paying out Big Bonuses with our Money.
The Christmas Cheer is still abundant if you are a RDS Bonus earner. These Bonuses Must be stopped until they have paid back all they have borrowed from us the Tax Payer plus Interest. They created there own selfish Mess so Why Mr Brown are we picking up the tab for life styles that should have disappeared the day the treasury bailed them out?
No one in the media seems interested, is because it is unstoppable of is there a more sinister reason?
47

Liz,

Edinburgh 23/12/2008 09:23:00
"Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, laid the blame for the global financial crisis on a reckless banking system."

I think he will find many are blaming Gordon Brown for the UK's current plight. He was warned several times years ago by the FSA and Vince Cable (amongst others) that this was going to happen and all he did was ignore them and smugly go on about economic growth. Economic Growth based on an ever increasing pile of debts is not really growth and he was simply creating problems for the future. Brown should have acted years ago but he was too busy thinking he was so clever.
The 'Independent' Bank of England should have put Interest rates up years ago maybe that would have reduced the amount that people had borrowed and kept some kind of check in the idiot boom in house prices we have seen.

48

Alan B,

23/12/2008 09:30:51
This is a devasting attack on Brown by the chief of the bank of england.

He is effectively saying that Brown by removing financial regulation from the bank of england to set up browns new FSA is largely responsible for the mess.

By using terms like crazy lending he could not have been more vicious in his attack on Browns control of the financial sector.

This leaves Brown with no credibility left.
49

Alan B,

23/12/2008 09:37:41
#Rulesbutnotrulers

Alternatively you have to ask what motivated Brown to remove regulation of the financial services from the BOE. Where the BOE unhappy with Brown allowing huge and unsustainable lending growth? Did brown remove regulation from BOE so he could continue with unfettered lending growth?

Removal of financial regualtion from the BOE must have been driven due to some reason. And most likely due to brown being unhappy with BOE approach. We know browns uncontrolled lending.
50

TWC,

23/12/2008 09:39:03
1 Rufus-T-Firefly,
You are really letting us down just like the press did in the 30s

Everyone knew the debt was out of hand the BOE did nothing because the government was happy to let the apparent boom continue.
The people know now and in the next quarter they will see as the companies collapse and working families lose their jobs.
Labour always screw up the economy before they leave office.
51

jdships,

Edinburgh 23/12/2008 09:41:26
57 and 59.
Agree totally with your take on this !

"Bank of England chief calls for tighter lending rules"
This smacks of "...after the horse has bolted etc....".

Brown and Darling ,if they are/were as good as they claim to be , surely should have acted earlier - yes ?
52

TWC,

23/12/2008 09:46:29
39 Dark Lochnagar,Symington 23/12/2008 02:28:43

The only people we have to fear is the people in our own nation who don't have the imagination to see a free Scotland.
The very thoughts of R B Cunninghame Graham joint founder of the Scottish Labour Party(with Kier Hardie) and founder of the SNP.
53

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 23/12/2008 10:09:46
"The only people we have to fear is the people in our own nation who don't have the imagination to see a free Scotland."

No . . . the people you have to fear are the #ankers who suck up all the money in Scotland and export it to capitalists in China and Singapore who guarantee 10% return by using slave labour with no unions alloed. Meanwhile the Scottish banks were happy to watch the death of every home-grown industry in Scotland from steel-working to ship-building- because they were 'not profitable' enough.

In addition it turns out that the heads of HBOS and BOS turn out to habe had little or no experience of banking to begin with and ahd the ethics and morals of drug dealers.

54

JayJay,

Right here 23/12/2008 10:55:55
You do have to laugh at posters such as number 1, who seems quite prepared to defend the crazy antics of those who were responsible for fiscal policy over the last 10 years whilst launching into a tirade against a fat wee man in Edinburgh with limited, if any, influence on the direction of UK plc.
For the record Rufus, Brown et al presided over this credit fuelled boom, nurtured it with low interest rates and compounded their folly by allowing near self regulation in financial services, absurdly believing that the earnings of City of London could somehow replace all other industries in the UK.
To hear Brown now peddle the rewrite that this was a "global and unforseen" problem of course works quite nicely in absolving him, his daft monetary policy, his pointless FSA and all the other fiscal gaffes he has made whilst pretending to be Mr Prudence.
That he is applauded by some for his "decisive action" (which appears to amount to no more than encouraging people to keep spending) is staggering.
This isn't a Unionist v Nationalist debate. Its all about a Government and an infrastructure that singularly failed to reign in crazy lending, even crazier financial instruments and believed the puff that the City was a self regulating "powerhouse" . That people have bought that this was something that happened to us rather than something we created speaks volumes for a world where "taking responsibility" just is not required.
55

Alan B,

23/12/2008 10:58:30
#Rulesbutnotrulers

The mess the uk is in is due to poor economic management largely down to building an economy on huge consumer debt due to massive and uncontrolled house price inflation and also very large public sector debt.

As such any country badly managed big or small could get itself into the same mess. Small countries tend to be better managed and more prudent in their approach due to the fact big countries can tend to get away with more bad practices for longer within the financial markets. The US can get away with more than the rest etc.

So we really do not know how prudently and well managed scotland would be. To some extent the massive house price inflation is driven from the south east of england. Scotland without the sheer density of population should not have has the massive house price inflation as supply should not have been a problem. But Ireland as it transformed itself from poor country to one of the richest in the world did allow similar problems to the uk to build up.

The advantage of independence is not really about this crisis but the fact that the uk has failed scotland from an economic point of view. We have grown less that 2% over the last 30-40yrs. We have grown at less thatn the uk as a whole even in the last decade and the uk has under performed the group of small countries.

And in gdp ppp per capita the small countries in western europe have done better than all the big ones.

So if it broken you have to look to why and what you can do to sort it.

When posed the question do you think a uk government will ever deal and address the uk north south divide no unionist has ever come back and said yes. We have seen Brown running the economy for his political advantage and refusing to deal with the north south divides that were so important to labour in opposition. Noone thinks the tories, largely a south of britain party will do anything.

That leaves devolving economic powers to scotland (how long do we wait) or indepe
56

TWC,

23/12/2008 10:58:43
67 Rulesbutnotrulers,

We've had Labour in power in Scotland for 50 tears and the downward spiral continues. Europe has been rebuilt in that time from a that FLATTENED in the war.
We need a change so we need to manage our own finances.
Perhaps we would be in the same position but we could better direct our Finances.
One thing is Certain we know New Labour and Barnett are not the answer.
Independence may not be first choice but it is infinitely better that Status Quo or anything like it.

Full Fiscal Autonomy is a must
57

TWC,

23/12/2008 10:59:22
Freudian slip should have been years
58

Alan B,

23/12/2008 10:59:42
...
That leaves devolving economic powers to scotland (how long do we wait) or independence. We had the undemocractic assembly referendum in 79 followed by 17yrs of tory rule without any mandate in scotland. Then a weak parliament without economic powers.

A scottish parliament within the uk with fiscal autonomy and powers over other economic tools and also the ability to choose which currency is best for scotland may work. But it is not going to happen. And what is the advantage ie what powers would you pull and for what reason. As such independence is probably by far the best option.




59

Alan B,

23/12/2008 11:02:50
#TWC

I agree full fiscal autonomy would allow scotland the tools of economic mgt to try to address many of scotland problems and allow us to try to build a stronger economy.

It would also enable a more mature relationship between scotland and england to evolve.

60

TWC,

23/12/2008 11:08:46
Alan B

It is the probable success Scotland WOULD make of Fiscal AUtonomy that Scares the Labour party yet it was fundamental to the beliefs of that party at its conception.
61

ebbi,

spain 23/12/2008 11:13:46
cheap money but tighter lending rules? and whats going to cause your next financial boom? with what money are we going to have a recovery in property?
as long as moeney is tight we´ll see no recovery and instead more bankruptcies and misery.
62

les vegas,

glasgow 23/12/2008 11:17:25
quote A. Darling, "And we now own 57 per cent of it".
Erm... Not quite, we now own 57% of it's debt.
63

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 23/12/2008 11:19:07
Though Gordon "Prudence" Brown likes to blame this on the Americans, where were the UK regulators? Where was the FSA and Bank of England?

Didn't anyone see that 125% mortgages where dangerous and stupid?

Didn't anyone view the rise of "Self Certified" mortgages as a danger signal?

Didn't anyone realize that allowing the banks to become overly dependent on short term wholesale money markets for their long term funding was foolish?

I am sure there where a few voices crying in the wilderness but they where quickly drowned out by the Labour placemen.

Old Prudence Brown would stop at nothing to keep the phoney debt supported economic growth going.

Now that has all proved to be a castle built upon sand.

Watch for the other shoe to drop in 2009 when his other shell game, hiding PFI and unfunded pension obligation off balance sheet, craps out.

It will be Labour forced once again to go cap in hand to the IMF.



64

Alan B,

23/12/2008 11:29:34
#75 TWC

I think there are a few reason labour reject fiscal autonomy.

- many within labour did not support devolution, and some that were convinced by it only for the reason that it would stop independence. As such they are not really as a party bought into the benefits of devolution per se. The devolution they set up mirrors labour ie spending is the priority not economic mgt.

- for brown fiscal autonomy could make his position of prime minister untenable. With fiscal autonomy it would clear the way to stop scottish mps voting on english matters. Labour have turned away from setting up and english parliament and made a mess of english regionalisation. There whole approach has been piece meal, see the house of lords reform.

- labour strategy against independence is fear. Think of a deficit. With fiscal autonomy deficits and fear issue would be removed. labour would have to sell the union on its merits and it is not convinced that scotland would go for it. It is far better to try to scare people into the union.

- if you have fiscal autonomy it raises the question of what powers should be shared. The only real powers that would be left would be defence, foreign policy, eu membership and currency.

defence - So you can see the snp making an issue of the money it is sending south as it becomes transparent. eg trident and its replacement. Iraq type wars.

currency - even labour and lib dem support scotland joining the euro but have problem that they would only do it if politically acceptable in england. that is not really sustainable. What if Nothern Ireland joined the euro while within the uk as has been proposed previously.

eu - it would not take much persuading that scotland would be better as a member on its own right rather than letting the uk as a whole represent its case.

As such the problem for unionists if they go down the route of fiscal autonomy is they will see it as the slippery slope. As if you look at it from a power by power poin
65

Alan B,

23/12/2008 11:30:19
...point of view there is a strong case for the scottish parliament to hold the power not westminster.
66

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23/12/2008 11:32:18
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67

Liz,

Edinburgh 23/12/2008 11:32:20
#74
"Tell me...who are the creators of the house-price bubble."

Well HBOS and RBS were among the driving forces for lending ever increasing amounts of 'fake' money and hence their recent fall from grace. Scotland has a housing bubble as much as the rest of the UK has, people are equally capable of being greedy both north and south of the border....
68

Goat Boy,

23/12/2008 11:33:04
I know very little about the finance world, but several years ago even I could see that it needed to be controlled. It is controlled by a group of individuals who are driven by greed; they are only concerned about feathering their own nests - at any cost. We, the public, are just a means of obtaining wealth - no matter what misery it brings.

These people need to be regulated. They can not be trusted.
69

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23/12/2008 11:33:20
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70

Alan B,

23/12/2008 11:39:10
#KampungHighlander

I completely agree with you.

I think what might have happened with Brown was when he took over there were a slowed down due to the end of the dot com bubble.

With good economic fundamentals he was advised to let the consumer take the strain and build economic growth on consumer spending and debt.

Then rather than reverting to proper organic economic growth and improved competitiveness after coping with the end of the 90s boom, he thought wow this is easy. He also had his eye on taking over from tony and did not want tough economic policies to undermine his single minded persuit of number 10.

He also probably saw the consequences of actually having to address the real economy when he saw the results of his economic management on the scottish economy which saw a manufacturing recession in the late 90s and a full blown recession in 2001/2002 under his adminstration.

71

TWC,

23/12/2008 11:39:37
82 Liz
My Daughter and my son were both offered high mortgages way above what I would have given them and it was not HBoS & RBOS but 2 entirely different Bank & BS.
They had to make the offers to get business because house prices were escalating.
Management by Regulation was the only way and if that meant increased Interest then that's what should have been done.
BTW they did not take the high offers.
72

Sedov,

UK 23/12/2008 11:41:11
Despite all this bad news, Xmas being the time of goodwill to men and women, I got to thinking that the SNP could let us forget our worries by performing their very own pantomime, a special unifying version of Cinderella.

It could take place in the Stone of Destiny Theatre, Stoneybridge, Culloden.. Alex could play Prince Charming with a maroon and white costume loaned by Vlad, with a few adjustments of course. He could wear a milkman’s hat at a jaunty angle with the words “St Cuthbert” clearly visible under the stage lights. Cinderella could be played by Elaine C Smith who could briefly give up her important role in penning such succinct, profound and earth shattering articles for the Sunday Mail, to lend her experience.

Buttons could of course be played by Nicola with a stunning yellow and black overall. She could show off her splendid thigh slapping technique honed to perfection by the Norwegian School of Method Actors who are on an exchange visit with the “ Get a life and enjoy yourself group” from the Royal Bar Rose Street, It is no secret that they are desperate to come home.

The band would be the famous Shingle Nufties whose violins are hewn from the ancient Caledonian Forrest. It is rumoured that drum skin is the belly of that well known patriot, Bonnie Dundee. The first row in the Theatre would be reserved for Labour Party VIP’s, within range of Cinderella’s mop bucket. The row behind Labour would be for the Tories who could be encouraged to appear in David Cameron masks – giving the cast a chance to shout at the first row “He’s behind you”!

At the back are the Liberals leaving plenty of seats for the public who would be offered concessions at the box office if they can recite the Abroath Declaration in Gaelic. The balcony is good enough for the rag bag of sectarian groups and parties who claim to be “the real alternative to Labour” they will be content in being first to the ice cream lady for the odd treat.

The Greens may decline to come
73

Sedov,

UK 23/12/2008 11:43:40


as Cinderella’s coach is powered by a small lawnmower petrol engine and not by battery although it is known that the three remaining members of the SSP have a banner stating “Solidarity with the Greens”. Good old Tommy! The interval could feature the Proclaimers singing 500 miles, an appropriate song given the 20 year installation programme for the Edinburgh trams

After the glass slipper has been shoved on and Cinderella has been to her ball in her coach, driven by two Shetland ponies as the Fountainbridge store horses have long been put out to grass ( unlike their distinguished ex driver) and the audience give a hearty rendering of Flower of Scotland, there may well be a sudden realisation, that despite all the fun and laughter, in the morning nothing will have changed except that we will be paying a lot more for the present crisis, not of our making, just to keep the good old capitalist system intact ands the socialists up their in the balcony.

Never mind though, the SNP are planning next years Panto – Peter Pan with Alex leading the lost boys into Never, Never Land. Special guest Ian Gray may get into his plastic crocodile suit to repeat his lines of tick, tock, tick, tock, tick, tock

Happy Xmas.
74

Alan B,

23/12/2008 11:44:15
#Magum PI

If I remember correctly the uk records said that it was between 80-90%. I have heard the figure of 83% as being our geographical split.

But other posters will be able to better clarify the split better than me.

For me oil is not the big issue. Just a pity we squandered it. For me it is about the poor relative economic performance of the scottish economy and the lack of political will of Westminster to adress north south divide issues.

75

TWC,

23/12/2008 11:48:43
87 Sedov,

The baddy could be mr bean, he could take the money off all the children. Then he could Knight all the people who cheer him.
Declare war on the Cinema across the road for running live pantomimes.
Save the world with the excepton of Iraq, Zimbabwe and Scotland.
Sack the SFA and the SPL, the Welsh FA and the NI FA thereby achieving a complete route of the Home Nations.

Global Global Global - Christmas Turkey
76

Alan B,

23/12/2008 11:56:42
#Liz

I do not think the housing bubble was really to do with greed. It was simply the government failing to control inflation, in this case house price inflation.

The whole thing was vicious circle. People were encouraged to borrow more and more just to get on the housing ladder. If you did not get on you missed out big time. It was either waste a fortune in rent of take on massive debt.

To a person the affordability of a house was not the cost of the house but the cost of credit ie paying the mortgage.

With massive house price inflation as long as you could service an interest only then you would make alot of money due to inflation.

Buy to let was also added to the inflation as it was an easy way to make money. And brown inflationary boom was going on and on.

Basically you were punished in the brown economy for prudence.

From the banks point of view, there was all that profitably lending to be made. Make a mortgage sale and then bundle the whole thing up and sell it on or hold it off balance sheet off shore.

The only way these banks could fund this huge growth in credit was via the wholesale credit markets as they simply did not have enough desposits to lend in this quantity. Mgt who were prudent would simply have been removed as other banks ramped up profitably lending.

The government are the managers of the economy and they should simply have take the action to control house price inflation and amount of lending.

My personal preference would have been rules round the amount of lending as a ratio of salary etc, improved capital requirements for banks to ensure not too big exposure to the credit markets (maybe a split between banks funded by the credit markets and those by desposits so any failure would mean that we could just let those banks funded by the credit markets go to the wall and not harm savers).

77

Darien,

Panama 23/12/2008 12:05:34
#89 Alan B: "For me oil is not the big issue. Just a pity we squandered it."

Correction, the British state squandered it. And will continue to squander it on the mega debts now dragging the UK into the third world (that also fits the police corruption level pretty well).

Norway is able to do many fine things nationally and on the global stage thanks to oil wealth that is less than Scotland's potential oil wealth. Meanwhile, Scotland continues its path doon the economic toilet, thanks to rule from London. Oil is a very big issue. Oil is Scotland's passport to prosperity for the next 30 years. Conversely, continued membership of this defunct union is a passport to under-performance, squalor, and impoverishment. For goodness sake, think of what Norway is about and contrast with us:

"Norway, under the leadership of Jens Stoltenberg, is maintaining its tradition of creative social and environmental leadership. The government has put together a global alliance to prevent maternal death in childbirth, investing in both safe delivery and survival of newborns."
"At the same time, Norway launched an innovative £675 million programme with Brazil to induce poor communities in the Amazon to end rampant deforestation. Cleverly, Norway pays out the funds to Brazil only upon proven success in avoiding deforestation (compared with an agreed baseline)."

People in Scotland need to get their feken act together!
78

puskas,

East kilbride 23/12/2008 12:09:15
No75. TWC,

Hi, Fiscal Autonomy.?

I would fear Labour having power at Holyrood with this power. ( example 50 odd years of Glasgow District Council )

Scotland with a proper Government as we have now ( with not enough power) would only prosper. Full Fiscal Autonomy with Independence is essential to make Scotland a modern society that we can all be proud of.


No49. Dekester,
Hi, You are a breath of fresh air with your posts.

I see comment similar to your own from NZ, OZ and from ex pats throughout the world on many sites..

The example shown by yobs on these sites showing a pro-unionist slant not by their debating skills but ....

showing uneducated, phycological mental imbalance.

Although minor in nature it does show people on the internet how lacking the unionist parties are and that includes journalism.
79

Observer..,

Glasgow 23/12/2008 12:37:54
I wonder what powerful hallucinogenic drug Rufus dabbles in, we might all need some soon.

As for the banks, nationalise the lot of them, it's the only way.
80

Boab1,

23/12/2008 12:42:31
I appreciate that HBoS was close to collapse, but as soon as the chancellor stated that no bank would be allowed to go under there was no need for the takeover by Lloyds. Comparative to size, Lloyds had to borrow more money from the govt. ( 63% of its value compared with 50% of the value of HBoS assets). Despite this there was no talk of Lloyds being on the precipice.

My only conclusion therefore is that there is a political angle to this. That is why I've closed all my accounts with the Bank of Scotland and will put not a penny more their way.
81

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23/12/2008 12:43:09
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82

,

23/12/2008 12:44:11
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83

Shamus,

GLASGOW 23/12/2008 12:48:04
94# ECK WOULD BE INCAPABLE OF INFLUENCING ANYTHING. He is just your typical loudmouth street corner boy. All gob no substance. The SNP SHOULD MAYBE START UP A CREDIT UNION AND GAIN SOME FINANCIAL EXPERIENCE.The thing is who would run it.
84

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23/12/2008 12:51:37
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23/12/2008 13:02:30
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86

Shamus,

Glasgow 23/12/2008 13:06:51
98# I am buying more shares in HBOS. Lets see who the loser is.
87

Shamus,

Glasgow 23/12/2008 13:12:16
105# The piano scene comes to mind! As both are on tune.
88

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23/12/2008 13:12:23
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,

23/12/2008 13:14:00
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23/12/2008 13:17:06
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Shamus,

Glasgow 23/12/2008 13:20:09
107# Your back George. How is the Campaign going.
92

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23/12/2008 13:39:46
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93

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 23/12/2008 13:44:17
#99 Magnum PI

"80% of £382,951 is £306,360. You are rich beyond the wildest dreams of most people on the planet. How do you plan to use this wealth?"

It is not part of your net worth if you live in it. The house could go up 300% to 1 million plus pound, but if you sold it and then had to buy another place to live, all other equivalent properties would have gone up the same amount. You would be no further ahead.

#106 Shame Us

"I am buying more shares in HBOS. Lets see who the loser is."

Can you lend them to me, I would like to short it.

It is a pity that people who have been funding their lifestyle through equity release loans had not been told this.




94

Shamus,

Glasgow 23/12/2008 13:47:37
113# Probably pretty soon Rufas old bean. But seriously Rufas what a bunch of losers this nationalist mob are. Endless laughter from them.
95

Hugh Roscombe,

23/12/2008 13:59:22
115 Shamus

Me? A loser? What's happened to your peace & goodwill Shamus?

ps - Merry Christmas.
96

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 23/12/2008 14:01:14
#3 Rufus The Barfly

"His attack on spivs and speculators was designed to do one thing and that was to place the blame for the Scottish Bank failures firmly at the door of the South East of England, the City and London's wealth."

Which was totally unfair, it was in fact all the fault of Gordon Brown.

When he was Chancellor he created the FSA to regulate financial services.

They Failed because they had neither had neither the skill, ability or tools to regulate crazy lending practices by the banks.

He was Chancellor for the entirety of the property bubble and did nothing to prevent it growing to the point that it threatened the entire economy.

When he became Prime Minister he did nothing to prepare for the crisis that everyone could see coming.

He just continued with the reckless spending that had begun when he was Chancellor.

Now he has embarked on a strategy of Quantitative Easing in the hopes that the rampant inflation it will create with the devaluation of Sterling will stabilize property prices.

ie: Your house will remain at 300,000 pounds but that will only get you 200,000 Euros.

Yes, the First Minister was wrong to blame Spiv's and Speculator, unless he meant Spiv Brown and Speculator Darling.

97

Shamus,

Glasgow 23/12/2008 14:07:56
116# Only kidding Shug. Aw ra best fur christmas. Aff tae the shops tae get the rations in. I have got ma barraload of Reichmarks. Hopefully enough fur the price of a loaf.
98

Observer..,

Glasgow 23/12/2008 14:54:32
121 I think it's quite clear from the article that if the Bank of England didn't know the scale of this crisis, then Alex Salmond is unlikely to have known about it either. I don't think there is any mainstream politician who can claim to be able to read the future on this one, apart from perhaps Vince Cable.

But the indisputable fact is that this happened on Gordon Brown's watch. He was the PM, he had been the Chancellor.

Now the removal of regulations which allowed to banks to commit their unpardonable folly actually happened in the eighties, so the Thatcherites are culpable as well.

No one is covered in glory here, absolutely no one, and there's no point in pretending otherwise.

But the buck stops with Brown.
99

Observer..,

Glasgow 23/12/2008 15:10:21
Olivier Blanchard, Chief economist for the IMF has weighed into the debate by criticising Brown's £12.5 bn VAT giveaway as ''not a good idea'' (in Le Monde). I suppose it's more diplomatic than the German criticism of ''crass Keyneianism'' but it does deal another blow to Brown's claim to be leading the world out of financial crisis.

Who was supposed to having a ''good recession'' again ?
100

Boab1,

23/12/2008 15:36:57
Observer: In Labour/Brown La La Land the fact that something which used to be £117.50 is now £115 is seen as putting more money in consumers' pockets! Or so the Chosen One was telling us the other day.

Magnum PI, I realise me closing my accounts with BoS will make virtually no difference but it still seems like the right thing to do (to me at least). I just hope the tens of thousands of members of staff who will be culled in the next year or so remember which party made it as difficult as possible for any other bidders to launch a takeover despite the promised 'level playing field'.
101

Alan B,

23/12/2008 15:50:44
#sm753

There is nothing wrong with light touch regulation as long as it is good regulation.

The problem with the uk economy is the levels of personal debt, not necessarily more regulation of the financial services.

If you were managing the scottish economy and looking at the problem of house price inflation you would be looking the supply side as the best approach. The uk approach has to be different due to the dense population and political difficulties of allowing another couple of million homes to be build in the south of the uk.


102

Alan B,

23/12/2008 15:55:56
#sm753

You dig at Salmond is also rather silly, as he would not have known the internals of the banks unlike Brown and the FSA. If the FSA say everything is fine then would any politician outwith the uk government know the real capitalisation and issues of the banks. Issues like the over dependency on the credit markets and the off shore debt practise used by Nothern rock and others.

With Nothern Rock than involved holding 50billion mortgage debt offshore in a childrens charity - granite - to avoid capital requirements and fsa regualations.

While i think it is either absured or completely incompetent of Brown not to be aware of this practice. You have argued on these forums that you do not think brown did know and that it was not his incompetence but that of the FSA which he set up. As such it makes it ridiculous that you argue Salmond should have known but it was acceptable for Brown who was responsible not to know.

Your logic just does not make sense.

103

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23/12/2008 16:37:58
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104

Observer..,

Glasgow 23/12/2008 16:42:47
Although a non governmental organisation, the FSA is accountable to Parliament through Treaury Ministers. It is HM Treasury who decide the ''scope of activity'' which should be regulated, even if the FSA is, as most regulatory bodies are, operationally independent.
105

Alan B,

23/12/2008 16:57:25
#sm753

Your desperation to defend Brown is admirable but fails.

You are the one that critises Salmond for not being aware of the internal failings of the banking system.

But defence Brown who set up the regulatory framework and who should have known as it was his job as chancellor.

You also avoid the core point i was making. It is not light regulation that is the problem but poor regulation. And the most important issue has little to do with the workings of regualation but the uncontrolled house price inflation and consumer debt which is Browns jobs to control or create an environemnt to control.

It is very basic. Brown even said in opposition he would control house price inflation after we saw the mess of negative equity in the early 90s.

Brown simply did not bother. He changed the inflation target to remove housing costs using cpi. And did not get the mcp to target money targets ie growth of credit as per the european central banks. Neither did he ensure that mortgage were based on a ratio salary (that is what i would have like to have seen).

Brown has been one of the most incompetent chancellors this country has ever known. Totally clueless.

As for regulation. If Brown was not aware of banks offshoring amount like £50 billion like NR to charities(other banks were doing the same thing) then that is complete incompetence. They were after all public companies with audited accounts.

You are very naive if you think Brown was not aware of these practices. If he set up an fsa so devoid of experience then he again should carry the can.

Ministerial responsibility means he should be nowhere near power.
106

Alan B,

23/12/2008 17:02:51
#Observer

sm753 is trying to make us believe that the wide spread practice of by banks of offshoring mortage debt like £50 billion Nothern Rock put on the childrens charity granite offshore, to avoid uk banking capital requirements and fsa reguations, that

-Brown did not know about it
-the fsa which brown set up to regulation it did not know about it or did not tell brown

And somehow that is ok and lets Brown off the hook.

It is simply not tenable that a chancellor for over a decade is not aware or does not make himself aware of the capitalisation of uk banks. And that is acceptable when the collapse.

You either have to take the view that Brown was negligent and incompetent or knew about it and allowed the practise as he was allowing the uk economy to be build and grow based on massive consumer debt.
107

Hugh Roscombe,

23/12/2008 17:09:56
Ach! The pound's even losing ground against the Bangladeshi Taka.

If it's a global crisis, why is the pound losing against just about every currency except the Zimbabwean dollar?
108

Observer..,

Glasgow 23/12/2008 17:16:50
131 You are quite right. It is entirely believable, probable even, that the extent of the financial crisis was not known to many. But it would certainly have been known inside the Treasury, not least because they got advance warning from Iceland about what was happening to their banking system. The alternative, that the FSA were so weak, or did not inform the Treasury of their regulatory findings, is actually worse. I just don't believe that.
109

Alan B,

23/12/2008 17:24:19
#Observer

The problems with the iceland banks was known more than 18months ago.

I watched a tv program saying how they were in deep doo doo due to buying US sub prime mortgages.

Again it was widely known but the Brown treasury did not bother telling councils that they should get there money out.

It is also pretty basic for out banks. You know the totaly amount of deposits and know the total amount of lending and can see the exposure by knowing the amount the banks have to borrow on the credit markets to bridge the gap.

If a banks is borrow far more than they have in deposits you know if there is any problem with inter banks lending the whole thing will fail. What was brown contingencies and risk assessment?

But allowing banks to show lower lending on the balance sheet by effectively bundling up mortgage debt into financial instruments and then holding it offshore in charities effectively owned by the bank to avoid appearing to have such high levels of lending is just a practise that should not have been allowed.

Apparently many wanted to put NR into administration but they had written so many penalty clauses into the deal with their own offshore charity that the government had no choice but to nationalise it.
110

Shamus,

Glasgow 23/12/2008 17:29:52
119# As long as our Queens heid is on it you can call it what you want. What a despondent, pessimistic lot you SNP mob are. The Samaritans have a free phone number. Just back in from Glasgow, SPEND SPEND SPEND is the order of the day. The country is in good shape. Recessions come and go. You SNP lot are not calling for the end of Capitalism are you. You just want to manage it better for the Capitalists. I have listened to that story for decades. Do try and come up with something original. Please.
111

Observer..,

Glasgow 23/12/2008 17:29:59
To be honest the extent of the banks sleight of hand in disguising what they were up to would surely amount to fraud in many other contexts. Someone somewhere must have realised that it would all come crashing down. Pyramid schemes always do.
112

Alan B,

23/12/2008 17:33:29
#Observer

"would surely amount to fraud in many other contexts"

When you hear that banks like NR held £50 billion mortgage in off shore childrens health charity with the childen getting no money, you immediately think fraud.

That it was apparently legal is disgusting.
113

Alan B,

23/12/2008 17:34:47
#Shamus

"The country is in good shape"

It is not april fools it is xmas.

114

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 23/12/2008 17:46:38
# sm753

Since you seem to have gone to bed early last night, you might want to check posts # 53 & 60 on http://tinyurl.com/9mjwgu
115

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23/12/2008 17:47:43
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116

TWC,

23/12/2008 17:53:15
127 sm753, people don't say er no in the real world

Scots need to get rid of Brown & New Labour then have a mature debate about Independence vs Fiscal Autonomy once that is done.

Puskas I want to look at the two main options before the referendum decision but I'm not afraid of Independence and it is certainly preferable to the Status quo.
117

TWC,

23/12/2008 17:58:00
The price of voting Labour ound= 1.053 Euros
118

Hugh Roscombe,

23/12/2008 18:51:51
Shamus

Spend spend spend is it? I've just bought another hoose.
That good enough?
119

Conan the Librarian™,

23/12/2008 19:05:08
143
Hugh, which country is the hoose in?
120

Hugh Roscombe,

23/12/2008 19:09:21
144

The pound is still falling against MOST world currencies.
You think Brown's doing a good job?



121

Hugh Roscombe,

23/12/2008 19:09:53
145

SCOTLAND! Half an hour from your good self.
122

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23/12/2008 19:11:41
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123

Hugh Roscombe,

23/12/2008 19:11:47
148

It's a homecoming thing - but just for a wee break. I may take in a Spartan's game.
124

Hugh Roscombe,

23/12/2008 19:12:13
149 was for 145.
125

Darien,

Panama 23/12/2008 19:38:32
"Bank of England chief calls for tighter lending rules"
Phew, thank goodness for that. We must stop the banks lending too much!

#144 Roseblue Kent: can you feel the plate tilting? The south east is apparently first to go under the sea as it rises a wee bit more.
126

Hugh Roscombe,

23/12/2008 19:40:29
151

Nice one Colonel. I'm off to celebrate.
127

Shamus,

Glasgow 23/12/2008 23:07:49
155# That is the whole idea of deception. It is to complicate things. Hunted down like dogs is a very humane action. Is SNP policy coming into line with the BNP. I quite like dugs moreso since I have got to know humans.
128

Observer..,

Glasgow 23/12/2008 23:11:07
Alright Shamus, you stick with your Union even though they have made us technically insolvent, but drop the BNP references they are Empire Loyalists, just like you.

129

Observer..,

Glasgow 23/12/2008 23:12:17
Anyway I'm off now I've got work in the morning, not like some. Happy Winter Solstice.
130

mcbogtrotter,

mccalifornia 23/12/2008 23:27:58
Independant or Union liers and thieves are everywhere, also everywhere are ordinary people who want for something better. The problem is we can not work together, put a hundred people in a room and you have a hundred differing views.
We all are good at knowing after the fact but it is the before the fact that we have trouble with. I think we are no better apart than we are together we still want different things from life.
One thing that is real is that in a global economy money is lent to nations that can not pay it back and in fact the lender does not want it back the world bank wants the interest and often will forgive debt to keep a country on the hook it happens all the time.
So why worry about a house debt just make the payment one that the person can afford and life goes on.
For the most part good comments on this
131

Charlie Ferrier,

Hamilton 23/12/2008 23:37:34
The oversupply of money - most of the money floating around in the economies have not been paid for.

Banks get together every year to discuss and set limits on the borrowing they allow by evaluating the different levels of risk - residential houses were seen as relatively low risk so they were able to set standards allowing them to lend up to 15 time some 25 times their capitalisation - so money is conjured out of nowhwere - its not real but attracts real interest and becomes real when its attributed against a security.

But sound risk management is what makes a bank healthy and profitable - the greed in everyone involved in banking has led to non management of risk - this is the fault of CEO's and boards of directors - they should all go - particularly from the banks that have been bailed out.

It used to be you did not lend someone more than 3 to 3.5 times their salary and they had to have a 5% or 10% deposit - if banks had stuck to this rule then housing bubles dont happen - of course far less commission is earned by all the waste of space middlemen - but the banks debt books also look smaller and healthier with loans that will not on the whole get defaulted.

Yes there needs to be multiple tools operating in parrallell in order to manage a free market based capitalist economy - elements that operate independently on different parts of the financial money go round. Please dont make it more taxes.

The idea of increasing interest rates is to take money out of circulation - bigger mortgages does exaclty the same thing from a monetary point of view.

It would be better to have a mixed interest rate and compulsory superannuation with government set quarterly rates - at tleast this way there are savings happening and capital flow can be managed - of course it takes control away from the banks to a good extent as the money stays with the person instead of becoming profit for the banks - hey this may actually make individuals wealthier!!
132

Warden An' All, Reborn,

24/12/2008 05:01:23
Unsecured loans are what caused the credit crunch, and unsecured loans are the sector which needs to be regulated.
The economies world wide is suffering because a number of greedy American money lenders and mortgage brokers believed this was an untapped fountain of wealth. What ultimately went wrong was a glut of repossessed houses from those who couldn’t pay back their unsecured loans; this created a log jam in cash terms.
The Americans loan money from institutions around the world, with those institutions usually expecting huge returns. The loans this time were not going to be paid back in time.
POW – the credit crunch!
133

Alan B,

24/12/2008 10:10:56
#Warden

The root of the credit crunch is the Clinton administration encouraging sub prime lending to help those at the bottom of the wealth scale on the property ladder. Problem is they could not afford it and it is the huge amount of toxic debt largely from the US that caused the problems for the global wholesale credit markets.

The UK was very exposed any problems with the credit markets due to vast and uncontrolled lending over the last decade. Banks funding their lending through the credit markets as they simply did not have enough deposits to keep up.

The inability of the government to control house prices and that associated debt mean the uk is in a dreadful position. Basically negligent economic mgt.
134

,

24/12/2008 21:21:37
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