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Asylum: 50 families a week told they can stay in Scotland

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Published Date: 05 February 2008
FIFTY asylum seekers a week are being granted leave to remain in Scotland, as part of a massive Home Office drive to clear a backlog of 400,000 files, The Scotsman can reveal.
A review of 1,100 so-called "legacy" cases has so far resulted in some 600 families being given permission to stay in the country. It is understood that by the end of the process next month, about 90 per cent of the families will be given the right to remain indefinitely.

Many of those involved are skilled workers who were from the middle classes in their home country, but were forced to leave because of persecution. A significant number are from Iraq, Iran and Eritrea.

All the cases being reviewed were initially refused asylum, but the vast majority are now being given the right to stay, partly because of the way they have integrated into their local community.

The Scottish Refugee Council last night welcomed the move and said many asylum seekers had been left in limbo, with their lives on hold awaiting a decision.

The plight of Scotland's refugees has come into sharp focus in recent years with growing concern over the number of forced removals and dawn raids, especially those involving children.

To avoid a repeat of the problems, the government last year introduced a streamlined system for dealing with the 2,000 asylum seekers who arrive in the UK each month. It set tough new deadlines for dealing with applications, and officials are now expected to reach a decision within one month of an application being lodged. However, that has triggered fears that many more cases will be mishandled, with applicants not being given enough time to gather the documents, witnesses and other evidence they may need to argue their claim.

One asylum seeker, who asked not to be named, described the moment when she was finally given permission to build a new life in Scotland.

She was relaxing at home when, at 3.50pm, on 8 October last year, her prayers were answered.

The phone call that confirmed she had been granted indefinite leave to remain in Scotland – ending seven years of anguish after fleeing her North African homeland – could not have been more timely. It was the 27th day of Ramhadan, the day that Muslims the world over pray that their dreams will come true.

Hers is among nearly 1000 asylum-seeking families that have been granted, or set to be granted, permission to stay in the country under a Home Office review that will conclude next month.

"I just shouted very loud. I was so happy, it was the best possible news," she said.

The woman was one of 1100 asylum-seeking families who have spent years living in limbo, waiting to discover their fate with many fighting in the courts for the right to remain in Scotland. As their cases rumbled on, their treatment by the authorities triggered a storm of public and political protest, as they lived with the daily fear of dawn raids and detention.

There were fears children, including many born in Scotland, would have their lives ripped apart by being taken from their homes to dangerous, alien countries. But for hundreds of these families, their future looks secure. Sally Daghlian, chief executive of the Scottish Refugee Council, described the review as "really positive".

She said "This has been a very long and difficult time for a lot of people. You cannot overestimate the difficulties people have living in limbo, living in fear for up to seven years, unable to work, unable really to continue with their lives. That's a huge impact on their mental health.

"From our experience, the majority of asylum seekers have had very good reasons for fleeing. They have escaped conflicts, human-rights abuses. It's incredibly unjust for people in those circumstances to have to wait years and years to have an answer to their application."

She said the fact hundreds of children from asylum-seeking families had been brought up in Scotland and now regarded it as their home had resulted in the high approval rate. But many of the families granted leave to remain still faced massive challenges as they struggled to build new lives, she said.

"People have not been allowed to work in some cases for as long as seven years. They will need help to brush up on their skills, to retrain and become employable again. Many also now have to find new accommodation, and deal with seemingly basic things like registering with utility companies, which they've never had to do before, so there is still a need for a huge amount of support."

Some are also struggling to cope with a legacy of psychological torture that has only been made worse by years of constant fear and uncertainty.

Kirsty Thompson, a Glasgow solicitor who represents vulnerable women and unaccompanied children who seek asylum in the UK, many of whom are victims of trafficking, warned that the deadlines for deciding new cases threatened to return many people to persecution.

She said: "We do have concerns that very short timescales with this new model won't allow our particular clients the time to disclose the information that can be a fundamental factor in deciding their case.

"A lot of our clients, because of the nature of the persecution they've suffered, take a long time for that information to be disclosed. It takes time to build up the trust, time that this new model doesn't allow us."

The Home Office said: "We have a fair asylum system which upholds the UK's proud tradition of providing protection to those who need it.

"We welcome those who meet refugee or human-rights criteria but we will take steps to remove those who have no legal grounds to stay and who choose not to leave voluntarily."

The full article contains 984 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 04 February 2008 9:33 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Immigration and refugees
 
1

John Blackley,

Winter Garden, FL 05/02/2008 00:15:52
I wish all the families who have a legal right to remain in Scotland a peaceful and prosperous life. I hope you bring a valuable new facet to Scotland's culture and add to the quality of Scottish life as much as it adds to yours.
2

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 00:41:26
Where are ye John? Florida is it?
3

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 00:43:05
"All the cases being reviewed were initially refused asylum, but the vast majority are now being given the right to stay, partly because of the way they have integrated into their local community."

Initially refused asylum? Then why are they still here?
4

,

05/02/2008 00:43:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
5

,

05/02/2008 00:44:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
6

Andrew D,

05/02/2008 01:38:06
So the spiteful small minded "get out of our country" shat has spread to Scotland too has it?

That's really very sad.
7

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 01:51:18
6 -Andrew D, 05/02/2008 01:38:06 says:

"So the spiteful small minded "get out of our country" shat has spread to Scotland too has it?"

I don't quite get your meaning Andy. Do you mean that Scotland should have an open door policy and that anyone should be allowed to come here without restriction? Or do you mean that anyone who claims asylum should be allowed to stay without question? Or do you just want to slag off Scotland?
8

John Blackley,

Winter Garden, FL 05/02/2008 02:48:57
#2: Exactly, An Beal Bacht, exactly.
9

Encephalon,

05/02/2008 02:53:02
"A significant number are from Iraq, Iran and Eritrea."

Yes- just the types we really need-so why are people from these far flung places even being considered for asylum in the UK-is it not international law that asylum should be sought in the nearest country?

Coupled with the millions of economic migrants from Eastern Europe plus millions of illegals and others already here who do not share our culture we will soon be strangers in our own over-crowded island. This is all part of an orchestrated campaign to eradicate the indigenous Scottish/British population and replace them with cheap labour. Meanwhile damn the consequences for social cohesion, stress on our social services and future racial unrest

I really fear for the future-the country has become a toilet run by looney left imbeciles.
10

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 03:10:50
9 - How's the weather John? Nice is it? Have they got their e-voting machines fixed yet in Florida? Wouldn't want the big vote in November to produce a questionable result. Perhaps Douglas Alexander could help out? Scot's of all persuasions, I'm sure, will want to thank you for your best wishes John and give you a hearty Cheers fae Historic Scotland!
11

Alan Reid,

NZ 05/02/2008 03:13:09
# 1, nicely put.
But hold on "A significant number are from Iraq.
What has happened to force so many people flee their homeland? Oh, sorry forgot, the US and the UK ingaged in an illegal war that caused 100,000 deaths (and the rest), and around four million refugees!
# 5 Richard Moorhouse, why don't you crawl back under the rock you came from scumbag.
12

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 03:21:24
10Encephalon, 05/02/2008 02:53:02 asks:
"is it not international law that asylum should be sought in the nearest country?"

The UN says:

Article 31. - Refugees unlawfully in the country of refuge

1. The Contracting States shall not impose penalties, on account of their illegal entry or presence, on refugees who, coming DIRECTLY from a territory where their life or freedom was threatened in the sense of article 1, enter or are present in their territory without authorization, provided they present themselves without delay to the authorities and show good cause for their illegal entry or presence.
13

Sheuchend,

NZ 05/02/2008 03:24:00
Am I missing something here in NZ?

UN members (Britain, not Scotland. Sorry about that.) are expected to take a quota of international refugees each year. Presumably Scotland has some population-based subquota of the UK total.

A nation that's host to refugees from some other source, may offset these against the UN total.

Others cope; why can't Scotland?

Your refugees are made welcome here, and in Australia.
14

Navvy,

05/02/2008 03:35:46
Well that was easy. Why not chuck all the files away and let them all in.
The civil servants who created teh mess should get no pensions, ditto the governments. Instead the money should go to creating a sensible working emigration policy
15

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 03:38:08
14 Sheuchend, NZ 05/02/2008 03:24:00 says:

"Your refugees are made welcome here, and in Australia."

Well I just hope your system works better than ours - there seems to be no end of Antipodeans over here - I don't know how many of them are selling the big issue though - I'd have to check!

BTW - sheuch is spelt sheugh as in s h e u ech ech!
16

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 03:38:18
14 Sheuchend, NZ 05/02/2008 03:24:00 says:

"Your refugees are made welcome here, and in Australia."

Well I just hope your system works better than ours - there seems to be no end of Antipodeans over here - I don't know how many of them are selling the big issue though - I'd have to check!

BTW - sheuch is spelt sheugh as in s h e u ech ech!
17

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 03:41:27
Sorry re: x 2 posts. Bandwidth compromised!
18

Royster,

05/02/2008 05:15:11
Lets get naked and let everybody in.
19

Samcafe,

Glasgow 05/02/2008 06:01:10
comments like 'the stone from which you crawled' shame us all. Thank goodness England, Canada, USA, Australia and New Zealand treated our people better and with more courtesey than some of the dreadful comments on here. Within 6 months of being in Scotland 95% of migrants are in jobs earning their keep, probably doing jobs certain 'Scots' wouldn't give up their dole or incapacity benefit for. Scotland needs migrants, we don't need narrow minded, loud mouth xenophobes.
20

,

05/02/2008 06:19:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
21

Gilmartin,

Philippines 05/02/2008 06:20:30
How many safe countries did these scroungers by-pass before requesting asylum in soft-touch Britain, the land of the Limitless Giro?
22

Cappo Del Monte,

05/02/2008 06:23:19
#20
As for england and the other countries you mention, they have just as bad a policy and attitude to asylum seekers. If, you mean migrants, please state that and get your facts right , as with others leaving comments, asylum seekers are 100% different to migrants who pay and pass the relevant countries tests.
They do not also hand out money to teach those migrants the language of the country they now live in like this country , you move there, you should either speak the language or learn it by your own means.
As for 95% getting jobs in 6 months, another misguided unsubstanciated fact
23

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 06:29:24
20 - Samcafe tthinks I should be shamed by a post apparently containing the phrase "the stone from which you crawled". I reject the notion that I should be held morally responsible for the views of others.

I especially resent it when the offending phrase is misquoted. Makes me think somebody's playing silly bug gers! So here's the offending phrase from the initial post.

5 - Richard Moorhouse, 05/02/2008 00:44:36

perhaps you should just save up the fare to go home to where you crawled here from. ----------------------------------------


Having misquoted a poster Samcafe then goes on to disparage Scots by suggesting we are shifty and ne'erdaeweels and that migrants are::

"doing jobs certain 'Scots' wouldn't give up their dole or incapacity benefit for".

A not very flattering view of Scots there Samcafe. Your lying and insulting ways do not endear you to me, although you will, no doubt, have plenty of support on this site. EV should be along later to join in.








24

Michael N,

Out Earning 05/02/2008 06:34:24
One asylum seeker, who asked not to be named, described the moment when she was finally given permission to build a new life in Scotland.

She was relaxing at home when, at 3.50pm, on 8 October last year, her prayers were answered.


I wonder how many tax payers who will be , and have already been, footing the bill for said asylum seeker to stay here, were relaxing at home at 3.50 pm.
25

Jimmy the Pie,

05/02/2008 07:14:41
Notice we can't comment on Hamish MacDonnel's latest literary masterpiece on Wendy. I wonder why???
Is Hamish getting fed up at being outscooped by the Sunday Post??
26

donald,

glasgow 05/02/2008 07:21:39
Hamish is outscooped by all the red tops on the Bendy stories he tries to spin. Wot comment allowed?
27

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 07:28:41
Earlier - on another thread.

17 - An Beal Bacht, 05/02/2008 01:04:54

It's kind of insulting - no? The way this newspaper makes certain topics off limits to comment. Ach weell - we aw ken it's geme ower fur the lassie. So let's be charitable and avert oor eyes fae her disgrace.
28

Helmut Smegma,

Glasgow. 05/02/2008 07:55:08
Why are there so many immigrant,presumably homeless,"Big Issue" sellers on our streets these days?
29

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 08:02:02
#25 The woman has a job and is contributing to the tax fund, not taking from it!

What sort of a narrow-minded idiot would you have to be to assume otherwise?
30

Max Born,

05/02/2008 08:04:07
To all you who aspire to be part of the master race particularly;
#3 "Then why are they still here?" of whom are you asking the question?
Perhaps I am able to enlighten you, "they" are still here because there fate is not in hands of people like"you"who eat the Daily Mail for breakfast and swallow the BS hook line and sinker.

#15. Learn the difference between immigration and emigration.

#22. So asylum seekers are given Giro cheques are they? no I don,t think so, they are given food vouchers for a parltry amount.
31

chickpea,

East Lothian 05/02/2008 08:08:39
Oh great more Giro cheques for child Benifit on there way to Poland!!! No wonder the number of people emigrating has gone up. What about our kids who is going to employ them ...when they can get a bus load of Polish people put them up ten to a room in flats in Edinburgh and pay them low rates of pay as they are supplying accomodation Oh yes its a great country if you are coming from abroad. I see trouble in store for Scotland.Welcome to All.
32

Max Born,

05/02/2008 08:12:26
#2,3,7,11 (ad nausem) All Bile & Backside.
Awa hame son an polish yer jack boots and dust yer stick oan tash collection.
33

Max Born,

05/02/2008 08:14:11
#34
Whit feck has this story go to do with Poles?
34

ddmc,

05/02/2008 08:20:43
if you've got something to offer our society then let them in & start contributing, but what #5 says is true, if your here for benefits & big issue selling then we've got enough of our own indigenous wasters.
35

sam the god,

05/02/2008 08:25:12
Just kick all the asylum seekers out they have failed in the main criteria that being that you seek asylum in the first safe country from the place you are fleeing how many countries did these people pass through to get to this country? They are only after what they can sponge off the British people if we said that you would get nothing for a period of say 2 years you would soon see a mass exodus out of this country almost overnight.
36

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 08:29:14
Free from hate
free from fear
refugees
welcome here.
37

chickpea,

East lothian 05/02/2008 08:35:40
Oh yes Duncan from Edinburgh open the flood gates!! We will be living in Fear soon enough.... Nice idea but is it realistic/ I wonder......
38

mike3,

Midlands 05/02/2008 08:37:37
Doesn't seem many considering the numbers entering the UK.
39

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 08:45:16
#40 You are a product of media manipulation. Open your eyes to reality. Flood gates? This is a tightly controlled trickle. If you want to see a flood of refugees, look to Darfur, Congo, Zimbabwe; look to Egypt and Syria for the people displaced by our waging of war.

What a country this is. Our definition of poverty includes people obese on too much food with televisions and video games to play. Our definition of a crime wave is a media-inspired fear of crime while actual crime drops. And our definition of a flood of immigration is a few thousand desperate people, and even these we want to turn away.

What do they know of Scotland who only Scotland know.
40

Old Siggy,

Dunbar 05/02/2008 08:46:39
Bad news for the thousands of Scottish tax-payers who have already been languishing on council house waiting lists for years.
41

bill inch,

EDINBURGH 05/02/2008 08:53:25
You will need them to fill the ranks of Alexs Army
42

Spicey,

Glasgow 05/02/2008 08:59:37
Asylum: 50 families a week told they can stay in Scotland

FIFTY asylum seekers a week are being granted leave to remain in Scotland,

Which is it Michael - individuals or families? Make up your mind, or even better, find out the facts first and dont hedge your bets!
43

joppa jock,

Huntingdon 05/02/2008 09:09:43
Simple maths. 50 X 52 = 2600 per year. Assuming each family consists of 4 then 4 x 2600 = 10400. In ten years that figure will be at the very least 100,400, not allowing for increased number of children. Simple question. Will Scotland have the infrastructure to support this numbers in terms of health care, education, etc..? Nothing racist or anti anything intended here, just straight forward questions.
44

Number 6,

Germany 05/02/2008 09:10:29
As long as they are working and contributing to society
I see no problem. If previous goverments had not ignored Scotland's ever increasing armies of idle scum,
then maybe Scotland would not have so many job oppertunities available to outsiders. Our "Bad Back" Brigades and Regiments of benefit scroungers, are not only a national disgrace but shamefull to boot.
45

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 09:14:07
#46 Yes, because every one of them will be contributing taxes which will pay for public services.

The people who are living fraudulently off sickness benefit or permanently unemployed or unemployable come almost entirely from the ranks of indigenous Scots. If you are genuinely concerned about paying for health, education and welfare you would be campaigning for more immigrants, because with every new hard worker we are better able to pay for our existing set of workshy wasters.
46

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow belongs to all of us 05/02/2008 09:28:02
#5...... Your comment is typical of the racism and bigotry which can be heard at every home game at Ibrox park. GROW UP! and come into the 21st century.We must try and educate people like you,it is our only hope for the future of our country,and when I say "our country"I mean SCOTLAND, not Britain.
47

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow belongs to all of us including the immigra 05/02/2008 09:34:43
#34....."I see trouble in store for Scotland" Yes indeed.As long as there are knuckle headed bigots like you in Scotland,"there will be trouble"
48

Farky,

Edinburgh 05/02/2008 09:36:42
The UK government has clearly lost control of immigration. We should be sending as many of these people home unless it's almost impossible to do so. Call me a racist, but there is just too many people trying to settle in Scotland/UK. I just wonder where this country is heading sometimes.
49

Captainofedinburgh,

Edinburgh 05/02/2008 09:41:20
I don't know whether to laugh or cry at some of the comments on here. When ever I see a story on immigration or assylum on here I wince at the thought of more biggoted, racist and xenophobic tripe being posted by some readers. "Stealing our jobs" "Go back to where you came from" "We're being invaded!". Utter nonsense. Maybe if our own lay-about workshy dole scroungers got off their backsides and got jobs, so many people wouldn't come here. Ever think about that? These people wouldn't come here if they couldn't find some kind of work would they?

Just think if the shoe was on the other foot and you were fleeing persecution here, only to be told by the country you tried to find safety in "we don't like your kind round here. Get lost". Put the Daily Biggot down and think about what you would do if in the same situation as these people.
50

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow belongs to all of us 05/02/2008 09:42:31
#36.......34 is having a go at the Poles because his bigoted and racist mind directs him thus.For years he has probably been spouting hate against the Irish and Catholics in general.Now his mind tells him that these new victims are also followers of the Catholic faith,so this ignites the bigotry in him,thus his rant.
51

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 09:44:06
#51 Lost control of immigration? On what possible evidence do you base that assertion? Too many people trying to settle? Scotland's population would be in freefall without immigration.

We NEED immigrants in this country. Our economy is reliant on a steady influx. These people are not taking jobs from Scots, they are taking jobs that Scots will not do, and filling roles that there aren't enough Scots to fill, and they are contributing to our prosperity at the same time.
52

Hunky Dorey,

05/02/2008 09:45:51
#52 Captainofedinburgh..........Excellent post!
53

Miss H,

05/02/2008 09:51:30
I don't think it is a coincidence that there is an SNP Government in power and hey presto we finally see a vastly speeded up processing of legacy cases and news that Dungavel is set to close...

It looks as though McConnell was being slightly disingenuous arguing that his hands were tied.
54

Miss H,

05/02/2008 09:56:46
54 The UK government has lost control of immigration and asylum Duncan. That is precisely why we have families who have been waiting over TEN YEARS in many cases for a decision and in the meantime left in a state of limbo and not allowed to work. That is a preposterous state of affairs and the sooner the administration of asylum and immigration is devolved the better.

I have spoken to some Glasgow SNP MSPs about this at length. They tell me that Home Office officials refuse to deal with MSPs because asylum is reserved. Yet at the same time it is often MSPs that people approach with their immigration and asylum problems as, with the honourable exception of Mohammed Sarwar, many Glasgow MPs will take nothing to do with asylum cases.
55

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 10:05:19
#57 You never fail to do it do you?

I responded to someone who said that the government had lost control of IMMIGRATION by asking on what possible evidence one could base the claim that the government has lost control of IMMIGRATION.

You come along and tell me that the government has lost control of immigration AND ASYLUM and go on to detail the problems that the government is having with processing ASYLUM claims.

Do you see the problem, Miss H? Do I need to spell it out?

You do this every time, and it is very tiring. Stop extending the argument into areas where you have a pre-canned political soundbite, and start reading what is actually being said and responding to it.
56

\seasider,

Saltcoats 05/02/2008 10:11:09
If I was seeking asylum from 'oppressive regime' etc. I would head across the first friendly border. This does not seem to be the case with a great many of them who arrive in Britain having bypassed many friendly countries even crossed continents to home in on our benevolent system. Get a grip Brown and shut the gates.
57

chickpea,

East Lothian 05/02/2008 10:12:46
Hunky Dorey....I dont think so there is nothing Hunky Dorey about you.....What the hell has this got to do with Catholics and Irish .....and I am a she not a He.Dont support a football team.... have no problems with either religion which you obviously do....stop talking tripe man!
58

Vancouver,

North Vancouver 05/02/2008 10:15:39
You Goody, Goody Guys will wish they were kept out after you have a bomb on your door step.
All we Christian Countries are doing is creating a problem for our Great, Great Grandchildren, "CIVIL WAR" in the future.
59

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 10:17:16
#59 Where do you learn these lies from? The proportion of asylum seekers who come here compared to those who do end up languishing in the next state is a hundredth of a percent of the total. I say again, what do they know of Scotland who only Scotland know?
60

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 10:18:37
#61 Those who seek to define a country by a religion do more damage than those who seek to help those who can be helped.
61

\seasider,

Saltcoats 05/02/2008 10:25:12
#63
Lies? my statement was a 'good many of them',Going by official figures the immigrants that come here are in six figures. Good job we dont get them all then.
62

Bewildered,

Glasgow 05/02/2008 10:28:22
The first comment was encouraging but sadly many after that became very depressing, often wholly in appropriate, and frequently mis-informed.
63

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 10:31:10
#66 Actually it was "a great many of them".

Is that a phrase you typically use to mean a fraction of a percent of a total?

Is your suggestion that Britain has no responsibility under the UN convention on refugees, of which we were not only a signatory in 1951 but an architect? You think we have no responsibility even for the refugees of wars which we have waged, and continue to wage? Do you have any decency, any humanity at all?
64

Sheuchend,

NZ 05/02/2008 10:34:26
TV and the press over here (NZ) are full of the travails of refugees in England. Scotland seems to be slipping below the intolerance radar.

So think. You have time.
We don't know who inhabited the land that's now Scotland 4000 years back. But those who occupy it now are descended from immigrant races - Celt, Viking, Saxon, Pakistani, Pole...

You're 100% a nation of immigrants. Even your language and principal religion are imports. Sure, some have been around a long time and others less, but does that matter?

Acceptance does matter. So does reputation.

Yours.
65

Allan(handofgod137),

05/02/2008 10:39:15
If they were refused, then kick them out asap, no mattere how many "anchor babies" they've had.
66

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 10:39:35
#74 You are labouring under several misapprehensions.

1. You and I are not indigenous people of Scotland. As #73 neatly describes, we are ALL immigrants. The only argument is about when we arrived.

2. The vast majority of immigrants will work when permitted to; they are therefore an asset to our social services etc., because they are paying taxes to fund them. The strains on our social services come from people who have lived here for generations who are living off fraudulent sickness benefits or on unemployment benefit despite there being jobs available.

3. The spiral has to end with you educating yourself about the reality, and becoming part of the solution instead of part of the problem.
67

Allan(handofgod137),

05/02/2008 10:41:29
#74 It ends when people wake up to the truth and start voting BNP, as they appear to be the only political party in this country prepared to put an end to the hoards of scropungers descending on our country.
68

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 10:44:27
#78 Nonsense. They are the only party spreading lies and disinformation about immigration and then proposing simple answers which appear to solve these illusory problems.

What you have to face is that if you have been duped by them, you have been stupid. It's not to late to educate yourself about the truth. Education will rid us of the scourge of the BNP.
69

\seasider,

Saltcoats 05/02/2008 10:45:42
#71
"A great many of them", I stand corrected, the fraction of a percent you talk of is,never the less, far in excess of what this country can do with.As far as 'decency and humanity' goes, I suggest (if you feel so strongly) that you adopt some of them. As to Britain's responsibilities under the UN convention, I think we have done more than our share.
70

Miss H,

05/02/2008 10:48:02
Duncan - they have lost control of asylum and they have lost control of immigration. Ask any immigration lawyer or indeed any Glasgow MSP. They will have dozens of tales to tell you of the Home Office. John Reid described the Home Office as not fit for purpose and he was dead right. It is the worst run department in government and as I said the sooner the Scottish Government takes control of both immigration and asylum the better it will be for us all. Another way of looking at it, if you don’t like the idea of the Scottish Government taking on additional powers, is that by removing the administration of asylum and immigration in Scotland you could help to ease the pressure on the Home Office.
71

Miss H,

05/02/2008 10:48:03
Duncan - they have lost control of asylum and they have lost control of immigration. Ask any immigration lawyer or indeed any Glasgow MSP. They will have dozens of tales to tell you of the Home Office. John Reid described the Home Office as not fit for purpose and he was dead right. It is the worst run department in government and as I said the sooner the Scottish Government takes control of both immigration and asylum the better it will be for us all. Another way of looking at it, if you don’t like the idea of the Scottish Government taking on additional powers, is that by removing the administration of asylum and immigration in Scotland you could help to ease the pressure on the Home Office.
72

Allan(handofgod137),

05/02/2008 10:48:21
#80 Spoken like a true leftist sheep. It's you who needs to educate yourself, perhaps you should find out how many pensioners who've worked and paid taxes all their lives could get the support to carry on living in their own homes for the cost of feeding, housing and educating a family of economic migrants.
73

Allan(handofgod137),

05/02/2008 10:50:06
Ohy and Duncan, was Nick Griffen lying when he said that terror attacks in our cities would be carried out by British born muslims?
74

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 10:52:48
#83 How hard is this to understand? Economic migrants pay taxes too. If your problem is with people on benefit, then you need to face the fact that the vast majority of them are not recent immigrants, but Scots who consider a dole-based life with perks based on criminality as their birthright.
75

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 10:53:41
#84 Oh well in that case he must be right about everything.
76

\seasider,

Saltcoats 05/02/2008 10:54:25
#83
I think you have got my posting confused with#79?
77

Sheuchend,

NZ 05/02/2008 10:56:15
Thanks, #78 for a brilliant new profanity: scropungers.

I'll use it as often as I can, once I've figured out what it means.

Accept that travel and migration have been the way of humanity for as long as we've been able to track the history of the species. It's not going to stop now.

So what stays?

Languages for one. Historically, Scotland has three: Scots, Gaelic and English. Are you (personally) caring for them by learning them?

Religion for another, though this evolves. Are you caring for your religious viewpoint?

For in eighty years, nobody writing here will be around. What will?
78

Miss H,

05/02/2008 11:01:32
83 And perhaps you should work out how much it costs to support pensioners to carry on living in their own homes and then tell us why we don't need to keep up the numbers of working aged people to pay for it.

If you want to close the door on economic migration you should also face the reality of what that means -because when you have a falling number of working aged people and a rising number of pensioners something will have to give. Free personal care? Forget it. You would be lucky to get a state pension in your brave new world.
79

Captainofedinburgh,

Edinburgh 05/02/2008 11:01:52
#74

Vote BNP eh? And what should we do with the immigrants etc already here then? Chuck them out or make them walk around with special badges identifying them as migrants? This country was built on, and will continue to be built on, immigration. Whether they be French, Irish, Nordic or whatever. And what about migrants who have lived here longer than some of the posters have no doubt been alive for? If we apply the logic of some of the posters on here, these people are more entitled to live here than them!

If people want to come and live and work in this country and can contribute something usefull to us then they are more than welcome as far as I'm concerned. As I said on my earlier post, our biggest problems stem from OUR OWN scroungers who would rather claim dole than get a job. And Asylum Seekers CANNOT claim benefits either. They receive food and clothing vouchers instead and are prevented from working until their claims are processed.
80

wordsworth,

05/02/2008 11:08:55
Look on the positive side,in a few years your population may have doubled,then you an play with the big boys
81

Captainofedinburgh,

Edinburgh 05/02/2008 11:12:23
#83

Do you have any idea of the stupidity of what you just wrote? ECONOMIC migrants come here to work. Therefore pay taxes. Which go towards paying for the pensioners you are harping on about. Really shows up the level of intelligence of BNP voters.
82

Sheuchend,

NZ 05/02/2008 11:16:08

You're wrong, Captainofedinburgh.

BNP voters don't require a level of intelligence.
Thought just clouds the issue.
83

\seasider,

Saltcoats 05/02/2008 11:27:27
#91
So where does the cost of the 'food vouchers,clothing vouchers, housing,social helpers & processors etc. come from? Do they pay for this themselves or is there some magical fund?
84

Allan(handofgod137),

05/02/2008 11:28:51
#93 Many economic migrants work in the black economy, paying no income tax and national insurance, they also help to keep the number of people looking for jobs greater than the number of jobs available, thus depressingf wages and forcing people to rely on state aid.
#94 at least they don't sprout the same old personal insults so beloved of the leftists.
85

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 11:29:02
#82 Miss H do you believe everything John Reid says, or just the things that help your argument of the moment?

No wonder the idiots don't understand the difference between economic migration and asylum seeking when people who have the intelligence to explain it - such as yourself - instead use the confusion between them as an opportunity for political spin.
86

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 11:31:51
#96 Without stooping to personal insults, mate, please explain why 'People who have lived here for centuries have a right to qualify as "indigenous"'.

You are again conflating the issue of asylum - in which we have a problem of being unable to process people effectively - and immigration - in which we have an opportunity to attract the workforce we need to power our economy. Please do yourself a favour and learn the difference.
87

Anthony,

Glasgow 05/02/2008 11:35:14
Living in an area with a high proportion of asylum seekers/refugees, I am embarrassed. Embarrased by the utter selfishness of people like me, and those living in communities such as mine. Those supporting amnesties for asylum seekers, and who come from predominantly middle class areas, bring all the advantages of massive numbers of asylum seekers into our communities, giving many refugee status on the flimsiest of evidence, and take no advantages for themselves. Indeed, in their spirit of utter self-sacrifice, they take care to always ensure themselves and their families never share in this wonderful project, which they so kindly give to the rest of us.

This cannot continue. They too must be allowed to share in the advantages they expouse. Coaches of asylum seeker/refugee children, many who do not speak English, should be bused into private schools, and other schools in more prosperous areas. 'GP' buses also should take them into these areas for treatment. Community points should be set up in these areas too, where groups can 'hang out', and introduce their families, to the wonders of foreign cultures on their doorstep. They too can share in the pleasures of refugees boasting of how they return on their holidays, to countrys they have supposedly fled in fear of persecution. I could go on. But let's be selfish no more. Let's share the 'advantages'.
88

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 11:35:38
#97 Do you have even one single iota of empirical evidence for any of those statements, or are they, as they appear, nothing more than a set of prejudices?

I mean, in my experience, hard evidence of the "black economy" is notoriously difficult to find. Have you got some? Have you been able to break down participation in the black economy into racial groups and immigrant status?

The only people I know participating in the black economy are white Scots. But that is just anecdotal evidence. I look forward to your hard empirical stuff.

Oh and, by the way, there are more jobs available in Scotland today than people looking for work. Sorry if that bursts another of your bubbles.
89

Encephalon,

05/02/2008 11:38:18
Economic migrants come here in a bid to improve their lot -I dont blame them for trying- but the strain on our already stretched infrastructure is too much. Moreover they serve as a cheap labour pool bringing down the wages of indigenous people -usually those at the poorest margins of the labour market. Real answer to any perceived labour shortage is to incentivise and develop our own people- especially those caught in the benefits trap and reluctant to take jobs.

The other issue is assimilation-the likes of "Duncan" better not come crying after the implementation of Sharia law in about another generation and they come down hard eg on homo-sexuals-(ooh misses)-they will discover the hard way that not all cultures are as tolerant as our own white Judo-Christian one WAS!
90

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 11:49:54
#103 Two interesting points. In response to your first, may I ask: what is the difference in incentive between a Scot "caught in the benefits trap" and an economic migrant? Because clearly one is willing to take a job at a level of pay that the other isn't. But surely the available benefits are the same to both, so why is one in a "trap" and the other prepared to be "cheap labour"?

To your second point, I would question the tolerance of the western Judeo-Christian culture - you clearly have a very short memory. But quite why you equate economic migrancy into the UK with fundamentalist Islam is beyond me. Fundamentalism of all religious varieties should not be allowed to impact on social morality, but I see no danger from immigration on that front.
91

Captainofedinburgh,

Edinburgh 05/02/2008 11:51:39
#96

Sorry, I meant #78. Who later went on to spout on about people working in the black economy. That's not soley reserved to immigrants/assylum seekers btw. Plenty of our own do that, whilst claiming benefits at the same time.

And #95, of course these things have to be paid for. But they are a fraction of what is handed out to our own scroungers on a weekly basis. And why shouldn't we help out those fleeing persecution by putting them up? Bearing in mind most of the houses/flats they end up in are in a disgracefull condition, barely fit for human habitation.

And why is Illegal immigration ow being dragged into this? It is another totally different issue!
92

jdships,

Edinburgh 05/02/2008 11:54:19
14 Sheuchend,NZ

"Your refugees are made welcome here, and in Australia."

This is a discussion re " asylum seekers"

But to reply to your "topic"
As are your's here in Edinburgh !
Hardly a centre city bar that doesn't have OZ/Kiwi bar staff - during normal working hours so not students.

Worked in NZ for a number of years at the time when you "headhunted" tradesmen with ridiculous promises !!

great country and enjoyed my time there - but "home is where the heart is "
93

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 12:01:41
#108 I have no idea; I can trace my family back as far as my great great grandfather who was a Baillie in Edinburgh, but other branches lead to England and Ireland. We are all of immigrant stock.

As to your quantitative question - we should allow as many asylum seekers as we can offer asylum to. We are an obscenely rich nation - our poor have televisions and obesity and the choice to not work and still be kept by the state - and we can afford to offer asylum to almost all who ask it of us.

As far as economic migration is concerned, we are still in a position where we desperately need to increase our workforce, so until we have met the needs of our economy, let us have more.
94

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 12:09:19
#111 *confused face*

Thanks JayDeeTee. You too.
95

Thorr,

Scotland 05/02/2008 12:12:19
Where do the native Scots flee to when they are an oppressed minority group!

Will they also be welcomed in foreign lands when they are in their turn also eventually forced to flee the racial oppression that will be directed against them as a despised minority in their native country that
they have inhabited for thousands of years?

What laws will they be able to invoke to protect them against the rising tide of anti-white race hate that is already begining to be felt?

Remember Kosovo!

The eventual Muslim majority conducted a terror war against Serbia. Many Serb police officers were murdered by the Kosovo Liberation Army before the Serbs were goaded to retaliate and eventually have Kosovo taken from them and given to the Muslims as a reward for their terrorist activities by Nato.

Get those burkahs ready ladies, it will not be long now!
96

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 05/02/2008 12:12:44
Duncan in Edinburgh

I agree with EVERY ONE of your posts. You are one of the few sane and reasoned posters on this forum today.

Take a valium, you Scots, because the social and cultural fabric of your country will be irrevocably changed by legal immigrants.

They do the jobs that Scots think are beneath them, just as in Canada, and I bet you have immigrants with PHDs driving cabs and deliverying pizzas just as we do in Canada because their credentials are not recognized.

We have a doctor shortage here, just as you do in the UK, and our government has finally awoken to the fact that we need the manpower/womanpower to alleviate the shortfall.

ALL of my doctors and specialists are immigrants and they provide excellent, if not superior care. This just happened and I would be crazy to refuse to see a medical professional just because their skin colour or religious beliefs differ from my own.

You will notice an increasing Islamification of your city centres and many mosques will be sprouting up all over the place.

This is happening in Canada and other coutnries in the world and if we can just isolate and jail the terroristic Islamists then maybe we could all TRY to live harmoniously with rancour and racism.
97

Scottish AND British,

Edinburgh 05/02/2008 12:20:10
Duncan from Edinburgh, thank you so much and I'm glad you've had time to make all the points that I want to on this thread! It constantly amazes me how many people fall for the media manipulation that conflates assylum seekers and economic migrants (though the latter are welcome too, IMHO) and that skews statistics in order to make the best headline. The really scary thing is that a lot of these folks see themselves as moderates and start their lines with stuff like "I'm not a racist xenophobe, but..."
A small dose of rational argument is all it needs to expose these people as not having thought their arguments through, and I'm glad you've been providing it!
98

Brian Ferrari,

05/02/2008 12:26:26
The problem the apologists on this site have is that they say that we are not being swamped under a mass of immigration (true, we're not) but they do not acknowledge that too much immigration could be unhealthy for Scotland, especially if it places strains on services and adversely affects people who are living here, who ever they are.

They argue for immigration without acknowledging the concerns people have about too much immigration.

So, should it be open doors to let, say another 50 million or so people in? If not, why not? And don't say that is just hypothetical or ridiculous, answer the question in order to move the debate forward.
99

Redfive,

05/02/2008 12:33:24
Duncan in Edinburgh, Go to Tower Hamlets in Londond and walk the streets for one hour, then tell me you dont feel like a foreigner in your own town, when you go into shops and no-one speaks english and they talk about you in their native tongue and thats about you not too you. While you are there why dont you check out the local schools and see how happy you are sending you children to them. Immigration for the needy is fine but there needs to be a limit. The woefuly inept Nu-Labour immigration system is as everything Labour NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE. All the criminals and undesirables know well how to milk the system at the expence of the UK tax payer. While our OAP whos families fought in two world wars for our freedom, have insuficent money for food and heating, we fall over ourselves to give tax payers money away. No doubt Duncan in Edinburgh you think the gov change of benefit laws enabling non-natives to claim for all there wives on entry to the UK is right and just, just because its ILLEGAL for native to have multiple wives does mean non natives cant right. What a crock of shlt this government is, along with all those idiot liberal doo gooders who dont live in the real world.
100

rawhide ,

Glasgow 05/02/2008 12:38:54
Try getting a private taxi in Glasgow.
Born and bread Glaswegians are hard to find driving PTs
most are now on the dole because the westmonster subsidised imigrants have taken over.

101

Redfive,

05/02/2008 12:44:15
121
Exactly they pass through many countries to get on a boat/plane/train for the UK and DESTROY all their ID documents before reachinbg the UK borders. They know what to say to cheat the system, so wake up and smell the coffee. Uncontrolled immigration both legal and illegal will change the country for ever and with islamic fanatic suicide bombers killing innocent people in virualy all countries they live in numbers its seems to me total lunacy to constantly accept them into our country while our cultures differ so much.
102

\seasider,

Saltcoats 05/02/2008 12:46:40
#117
I am well aware of that fact. Asylum seekers are only a part of the problem we are having.
#119
Quite right,what is that figure,will these apologists will still be spouting their 'welcome to all' message when their children cannot get a place in school,surgeries full and the hospitals cannot cope.
103

HA,

Beith 05/02/2008 12:49:44
why this tiny nation with endemic poverty and social problems? why not the larger and closer countries these people passed through on their long journey? where is the accommodation going to come from? where are the school places? where are the doctors? where are the hospital beds? where are the dentists? how are we going to generate the extra electricity? WHY? WHY? WHY?
104

Brian Ferrari,

05/02/2008 12:52:17
I think people such as Duncan take these positions for their own selfish reasons.

They don't want the responsibility of taking positions that they feel to be ungenerous no matter if it harms their country. They can afford their middle class ideals without their own lifestyles being compromised.

Meanwhile it is others that suffer and move to the extreme politics of the BNP. So we have social liberals acting as recruiting sergeants for right wing extremists.
105

Brian Ferrari,

05/02/2008 12:58:15
127 Mario

Quite. That doesn't move the debate forward though.
106

Captainofedinburgh,

Edinburgh 05/02/2008 13:00:39
It's as if I've stumbled across a BNP rally here. I bet if the exact same people who are spouting their bile here were to find out Scottish people were banned from emigrating to xyz countries they would be up in arms saying how much of a disgrace it was etc etc.

I thought this was supposed to be a forward thinking, tolerant country? Instead, going by this list of comments, it's filled with biggoted morons who believe everything they read in the papers and who are sucked in by waves of sensationalist drivvle.

Did nobody stop to think that people choose to come here because it's about as far away from their country of origin as they can get? I know if I was being persecuted in this country I would'nt just hop over the border to England and stop there. I'd go as far as I could to get away from the place.
107

Redfive,

05/02/2008 13:05:31
The Genuine Mario Antoinette,
05/02/2008 12:55:53
If I lived in Iraq, I'd probably want to get out too.

Me too but can you tell me why they travel 1000s of miles to claim asylum in the UK and not a safe country closer to home. Oh yes the gravy train for non-natives via Nu-Labour benefit policies, free housing, free money, large family = free car, free school, free english lessons, tax credits all for non natives, money for polish children who live in poland if their parents work in the UK what the fek is that about ? I dont understand this lunacy can someone explain it to me ?
108

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 13:07:01
#119 By definition, "too much" immigration would be bad for any country! This is a logical fallacy. The question is how much is too much. For economic migration my answer would be, as I have said, enough to satisfy our economic requirements. For asylum, as much as we can afford. I think the figure of 50 million exceeds both of those measures by quite a stretch.

As for your follow-up personal attack in #126, it isn't me dodging responsibility. Those who say we should not accept asylum seekers are dodging their moral responsibility to those weaker than themselves. Agreeing with the BNP is an active step, not passive, and everyone has the capacity to choose.
109

Miss H,

05/02/2008 13:08:59
HA Beith. Most asylum seekers and refugee populations are based in the neighbouring countries. People may be surprised by this but the countries with the largest populations of refugees are Iran and Pakistan. The refugee populations there come from Iraq and Afghanistan. Where we are fighting wars. If anything, Pakistan and Iran should be complaining to us - not us complaining about taking some of the refugees they can't cope with.

There are almost 33 million refugees and displaced people in the world, not counting the Palestinians who are covered by a separate UN mandate. Only a fraction of those end up in Britain and a fraction of that fraction end up in Scotland. They end up in Britain because Britain is a signatory to the 1951 Convention. The UK is tenth in western Europe in terms of asylum seekers per capita. Austria, Norway and Switzerland have the most asylum applications per capita in Western Europe. That is pretty unfair really as I don't recall that Austria, Norway and Switzerland have invaded any countries recently and precipitated mass population movements. Again, I think those countries would have good grounds for saying that the UK should take a bit more responsibility for what we have helped to cause.

110

\seasider,

Saltcoats 05/02/2008 13:10:40
#130
Your right 'about' as far away from their country of origin but there are places still further and 'very' sparsely populated. But then I dont think these places would give them the same benefits.From what I can deduce they hop over many safe countries to reach our green shores, anyway is distance a factor in this problem?
111

Redfive,

05/02/2008 13:12:14
Captainofedinburgh:

What a small minded comment from a middle class do-gooder, its about numbers how can we continually let in these people, there has to be a limit. As a said before I am not against asylum for the genuine but the system is total inept and being abused by thousands and there has to be a limit we are a tiny over populated island with very limited resources. You dont have to be a rocket scientist to work out we cant absorb every asylum seeker in the world so why is Nu-Labour acting like one ?
112

Brian Ferrari,

05/02/2008 13:12:37
#132 Duncan

OK - so there is a limit on asylum and immigration. So is that limit breached when YOUR lifestyle is compromised, or when those less fortunate than you are affected?

113

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 13:13:28
#120 Well first of all if I was walking in Tower Hamlets I wouldn't be in my own town! I understand your point, and it is a valid one - enclaves and ghettos can be both empowering and damaging, and we need to break down barriers wherever we can. Sadly it is far easier to decide to hate than it is to try to break down those barriers, and it is clear from what you have said that you have taken the easy decision to hate. Just bear in mind that that is your decision, it hasn't been forced on you, and you can also choose to stop.

I assume from what you say that there are no white benefit claimants in Tower Hamlets? That in fact the borough divides into working white people and the benefit-scrounging non-whites who live off them. Is that correct? No it isn't.
114

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 13:15:28
#122 "Westmonster subsidised immigrants"? What is the difference between an immigrant and a non-immigrant in Glasgow then, as it pertains to plying the taxi trade? Do immigrants get paid more? Do they get extra immigrant-only benefits? What is the difference?
115

Captainofedinburgh,

Edinburgh 05/02/2008 13:16:26
#131

Are you one of these idiots who believed that Asylum Seekers got given free mobiles? What free money do they get? Free cars?! Are you joking?! Free education seems fair enough to me. Or would you rather they remained unable to speak English and communicate with you? I suppose that would fuel your argument for getting rid of them though wouldn't it?

You have been sucked into The Daily Mail's drivvle of how the whole world is out to get us and that we're drowning in a sea of filthy, nasty migrants out to suck us dry. I suggest you read the 4th item down:

http://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/gettinginvolved/campaign/campaigners_pack/press_myths.htm
116

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 13:16:44
#123 Who is proposing uncontrolled immigration? This is a straw man argument. Nobody is proposing uncontrolled immigration.
117

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 13:18:37
#124 In Scotland, the levels of unemployment among immigrants are far below those in the Scottish population as a whole. So the more immigrants, the more tax money we will have to pay for hospitals and schools. It's not that hard to understand really, which makes me wonder why you refuse to acknowledge it.
118

Redfive,

05/02/2008 13:21:18
Duncan perhaps you could take the time to read this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=401509&in_page_id=1770&ct=5

Then maybe you can stop calling everyone a racist and wake up to the reality of mass immigration in the UK.
119

brettgallacher,

edinburgh 05/02/2008 13:23:04
lets get this straight FACT every money grabbing asyslun seeker by passed every other country to get here bred like a rabbit on heat thus costing this country £50 000 for every family every year now we have the destruction of scotland mob telling me how gratful i should be well i have 2 friends whose daughters WERE raped by these peace loving only here to help us refugees but i take it because they were white and scottish they must have been asking for it plus our country is sinking under the weight of the amount of people that are now here FACT goverments own figures by the end of the year there will be 6 million people in scotland 750 000 more than is economically viable i toke just like zimbabwe i will be chucked out my house because im white because take it from this is a fact they get priority
120

Redfive,

05/02/2008 13:24:52
Duncan in Edinburgh,
05/02/2008 13:15:28
#122 "Westmonster subsidised immigrants"? What is the difference between an immigrant and a non-immigrant in Glasgow then, as it pertains to plying the taxi trade? Do immigrants get paid more? Do they get extra immigrant-only benefits? What is the difference?

Well duncan as you cant work it out I will explain it for you.
Native and their familes fought in many wars for our freedoms and have paid taxes for many generations to build up the country and infrastucture that we have now. Non-natives come here in their thousands seeking terrific benefits and they have paid nothing into the pot.
121

\seasider,

Saltcoats 05/02/2008 13:28:16
#143
How many immigrants would we require for them to pay enough tax to pay for a one hospital or one school? Meanwhile prior to this tax being accumulated they would be here using these 'non-existent' services.
Incidentally where do you get the figures for tax paid by the immigrant population, I would be interested in reading them.
122

Redfive,

05/02/2008 13:31:53
The Genuine Mario Antoinette,
05/02/2008 13:20:36
It seems some - not all - actually believe that newspapers tell the truth and have no political agenda !

You really should get out more and dont just read one newspaper read them all, speak to the man in the street, not BNP spokeman, but a local. Go to the major cities in the UK and ask about if you are really intrested, this is happening to the UK. And maybe you can tell me where are the resources to cope with this, over a million poles in the UK, great bunch of people hard working never met a bad one yet myself. But the point is numbers, asylum is ok if its managed propely but burying your head in the sand and pretending its not happening is a falsehood.
123

Captainofedinburgh,

Edinburgh 05/02/2008 13:32:31
I can't help but laugh out loud at this "native" and "non-native" stuff! What makes somebody "native" then? How long does one have to be here before becoming "native"? And #146, plenty of white Scottish people commit rapes you know. And probably in far greater numbers than asylum seekers. And please let me know where you just plucked £50,000 from?
124

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 05/02/2008 13:32:37
10
Encephalon,
05/02/2008 02:53:02
"A significant number are from Iraq, Iran and Eritrea."

Yes- just the types we really need-so why are people from these far flung places even being considered for asylum in the UK-is it not international law that asylum should be sought in the nearest country?

Coupled with the millions of economic migrants from Eastern Europe plus millions of illegals and others already here who do not share our culture we will soon be strangers in our own over-crowded island. This is all part of an orchestrated campaign to eradicate the indigenous Scottish/British population and replace them with cheap labour. Meanwhile damn the consequences for social cohesion, stress on our social services and future racial unrest

I really fear for the future-the country has become a toilet run by looney left imbeciles.

05/02/2008 08:45:16
#40 You are a product of media manipulation. Open your eyes to reality. Flood gates? This is a tightly controlled trickle. If you want to see a flood of refugees, look to Darfur, Congo, Zimbabwe; look to Egypt and Syria for the people displaced by our waging of war.

What a country this is. Our definition of poverty includes people obese on too much food with televisions and video games to play. Our definition of a crime wave is a media-inspired fear of crime while actual crime drops. And our definition of a flood of immigration is a few thousand desperate people, and even these we want to turn away.



113
Thorr,
Scotland 05/02/2008 12:12:19
Where do the native Scots flee to when they are an oppressed minority group!

Will they also be welcomed in foreign lands when they are in their turn also eventually forced to flee the racial oppression that will be directed against them as a despised minority in their native country that
they have inhabited for thousands of years?

What laws will they be able to invoke to protect them against the rising tide of anti-white race hate that is already beginin
125

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 13:32:46
#136 The granting of asylum to a refugee costs us money, which comes from taxes being paid by the working people in our society. But the cost is absolutely marginal to the amounts we spend in total. Public spending in Scotland runs to in excess of £40 billion a year. Would you care to guess how much of that was the cost of granting asylum? We can afford to do a great deal more.

Immigration, on the other hand, creates wealth in our society, because it increases our workforce. Year on year, the economic benefit of immigration far outstrips the costs of asylum.

The opportunity for growth in our economy is not without limits, so there is a level of immigration which would become unsustainable - but we are nowhere near it yet.

The point is that immigration is already affecting all of us in a hugely positive way, and is more than paying the cost of asylum. I want it to continue to do so.
126

kimba,

05/02/2008 13:36:22
122. They do get priority housing,and furniture supplied by social services.
127

Geomac 1,

Kinross 05/02/2008 13:36:26
There seems to be a significant misunderstanding between "immigrants" and "asylum seekers" in many of the aboce postings.
Immigrants to fill specific jobs has been the norm for years - and the corollary of Scots emigrating to take up jobs in other countries has also been long practised - no problem!
Asylum seekers flee their home countries in fear of retribution by their government - and seek asylum in the closest or first country of safety - again no problem!
However, where I DO have the problem is where in both the above categories, they come here ILLEGALLY!!!!
We should not be considered as a soft touch for any illegal practices - otherwise where do you draw the line? We have very large percentages of illegal immigrants either in jail for indulging in criminal activities and high numbers not working and living on handouts and benefits
Yes, much of the problem we are currently facing is due to the incompetence of our politicians and their cases should be treated sympathetically BUT the goverment MUST be open and honest with the indigent population as to exactly what is going on!!

At the moment, we see incompetence at all levels - firstly, criminals are being let out of jail early because of the lack of cells and now we see illegal asylum seekers being allowed to remain (Yes, illegal - their applications have been refused - many on multiple occasions)simply beacuse of an inability by government to process applications in a timely, sensible and humane fashion.
This gross incompetence MUST be corrected!
128

Miss H,

05/02/2008 13:37:36
145 and 147

Maybe you should try reading the paper you are commenting on more regularly? The most recent figures I read were in a Scotsman article last year. Of 42,810 nationals from the accession states who have signed up to the worker-registration scheme in Scotland since 2004, there have been 568 benefit applications made. That is less than 0.1 per cent of the total. Perhaps it is time for the Scotsman to update these figures? Or maybe an MP or MSP should do so. I think greater publicity for these facts would do a lot to counter the Daily Mail level of hysteria apparent in some of these comments.

http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=311902007
129

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 13:37:51
#145 I have taken the time to read that Daily Mail article. Perhaps you would take the time to peruse my comments and note that at no point have I called anyone a racist, and perhaps as a result you will apologise for saying that I have.

The article, incidentally, does not support your argument. It suggests that a newsreader believes that the policy of multiculturalism has been partially unsuccessful and needs to be changed. He neither opposes immigration nor supports limits on asylum. In sum, even an article you've chosen yourself from the Daily Mail doesn't support your views. Oh dear.
130

Redfive,

05/02/2008 13:40:30
non-native = not born on current island where you live.
native = born on current island where you live.

131

\seasider,

Saltcoats 05/02/2008 13:41:47
#152
I would like the figure to be even more marginal. You are right about immigration affecting all of us,but as far as a positive way I think people on waiting lists (hospitals,doctors,dentists etc.)would disagree with you and it will only get worse.
132

Redfive,

05/02/2008 13:43:00
One of Britain's most prominent ethnic minority figures today attacks the excesses of multiculturalism.

Sorry read the first line again taken from the article. How do we get multiculturalism through immigration, I can spoon feed you the story again in case you are unable to work it out for yourself.
133

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 13:45:02
#146 What a litany of falsehoods. But you are too far gone to have a rational discussion. Let me simply say this: if ever we reach the stage that a crime of rape is responded to by hounding out of the country anyone who has the same colour skin as the perpetrator, then we have hit rock bottom. Your views are vile and incomprehensible.
134

Miss H,

05/02/2008 13:46:18
154 No Kimbs they do not get priority housing in Scotland. They get housing which was previously void. Let's be clear about that. When Glasgow City Council did a deal with the UK Government to take in asylum seekers the Government gave them a grant which they used to bring void housing back into use, to house asylum seekers. As asylum seekers gain the right to stay and move on that means that more housing becomes available - not less.
135

Miss H,

05/02/2008 13:47:12
159 How does it affect you in Saltcoats?
136

Redfive,

05/02/2008 13:50:26
Duncan in Edinburgh

What are you talking about ? I am talking about un-controlled immigration into the UK ruining the culture. You seem pleased with it and want more I do not. What is vile about asking questions as to whether we have the resources to absorb these high numbers of immigrants, i think the question has great relavence. The social policies of the gov do nothing but increase the number of immigrants reaching our shores as can be seen in many major cities in the UK this is fact.
137

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 13:51:26
#147 Your argument has no logic.

I can point you at a white man in Glasgow whose family never fought in a war, and who has never done a day's work in his life, but lives on benefits, has a telly, has kids by three different women, drinks beer with his mates of a Friday and Saturday, and tops up his benefits with a sideline in odd jobs on the sly.

I can point you at an Asian man whose father fought for the British in the war, who worked 100 hour weeks for years to save enough to bring his family over here, and is now prepared to work as hard again to build a life for them, in whatever jobs he can get.

And you, in your lazy, offensive and thought-free way, will tell me the first man should be given the second man's job? That the first man "deserves" and the second doesn't?
138

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 13:54:50
#160 Did you read past the headline?


"... he stresses he is not attacking the idea of a multi-cultural society or immigration in general.

But Mr Alagiah likens it to 'a garden that has been allowed to run wild'.

He adds: 'I'm convinced the answer lies not in getting rid of multiculturalism altogether, still less in trying to end the diverse flow of people to Britain, but in trying to resurrect its original goal - the mixing of people of different races on an equal footing.'"

I can spoon feed you the rest in case you are too pig-headed to let it penetrate your skull.
139

\seasider,

Saltcoats 05/02/2008 13:55:59
#163
Probably the same way it affects the whole country. Reduced services,waiting lists for hospitals etc. Funds being directed to cope with the immigrant influx instead of being directed towards the sick, elderly etc. It must have a effect,however marginal, on us all. How about where you live?
140

Miss H,

05/02/2008 13:56:34
155 Geomac.

This whole illegal immigrant thing does need to be addressed. The issue with the legacy cases is that these people never got a decision. It is not the case that they were found to be illegal immigrants. It is not the case that they had been through the asylum process and had failed. They have not been through the process. They made their initial application which may have been rejected because they filled out the wrong form or did not tick a particular box. They appealed and .... nothing. So you have people left in a state of limbo without a passport, without any decision having been made about whether or not they can stay.

So what you are talking about is not illegal immigration on a massive scale, it is a failure of one particular department of government to do its job on a massive scale.

Incidentally how many asylum seekers are there in Kinross?
141

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 05/02/2008 13:56:39
151
Astute. I cannot add much other than this:

All these "let em all in" brigade need to remember this is an island with finite resources and space in order to continue our progressing culture and quality of life.

The foreign english government has in the last two generations ruined Britain and Scotland with policies that lead to dilution of culture via immigration. Yes we should welcome those who arrive, yet it is our choice who we should let in. That is what an immigration policy is meant to control.

Scotland should be open to a modicum of intelligent people,from immediate neighbors, Norway, Sweden, Finland, France,Lithuania,Estonia,Poland,etc In short people who come from parallel cultures who are considering moving to Scotland, for Scotland and the culture AND wish to integrate/assimilate.

A great deal of Eastern Europeans are getting there money here and then leaving, that is not on.

The english colonial system still promotes the cultural deterioration of Scotland.

Independence is part of ridding us of colonial incompetence.





142

kimba,

05/02/2008 13:58:00
162.Must be just in England then.
143

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 05/02/2008 13:59:25
As for Assylum seekers from Anglo-American and Anglo-Saxon wars. Keep them out.
144

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 14:02:23
#167 What services have you noticed being reduced as a direct result of asylum seekers? Which specific hospital waiting lists have increased as a result of asylum seekers? How precisely do you break down the data to show which entries on a waiting list are asylum seekers and which are not?

You're talking nonsense aren't you. Put up or shut up.
145

Brian Ferrari,

05/02/2008 14:03:23
#147/165

Redfive's argument is about social cohesion which has evolved through the shared endeavour of generations working for the common good of generations to follow.

Certainly there will be examples of the kind put forward at #165 by Duncan, but the argument is that cohesion that has built up will disintegrate if there is a large influx of immigrants who haven't shared that heritage, especially if they do not make an effort to fit in with the culture of the host country.
146

Miss H,

05/02/2008 14:03:40
167 How does your perception square with the fact that waiting times are coming down, local government has more money than ever before to provide services and free personal care payments have been increased in line with inflation?

It is also interesting that less than 2% of people living in Cunninghame North constiuency were born outside the UK yet your perception is that you are being flooded.
147

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 05/02/2008 14:05:23
157 166

There is no such thing as multiculturalism, multiracial, yes.

As soon as you have many cultures in a small area, they all huddle together with familiarity, add media saturation and technological desire and bring to the boil, there ceases to be any "culture left" THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AMULTICULTURE it is a political nonsence.
148

Allan(handofgod137),

05/02/2008 14:05:42
#152 Duncan, and are you adding the hidden costs, what about healthcare, we are now seeing the resurgence of illnesses such as tb, which we eradicated from this country, also the increase in HIV/AIDS, which is mainly caused by economic migrants from africa. What about the cost of interpreters for those who don't speak english? As to the falling population, Scotland's pre WW2 population was approx 3000000, and industry was far more labour intensive than it is today. I make no apology for refering to asylum seekers as economic migrants, scroungers and parasites, because the vast majority are precisely that. A genuine asylum seeker is supposed to seek asylum in the first safe country they come to, so unless the flew directly from their country of origin to the UK, they do not fall into this catagory. I'd also appreciate if the rest of you leftist could provide proof of how there is any net benefit to your open door policies.
149

Redfive,

05/02/2008 14:11:44
#147 Your argument has no logic.

I can point you at a white man in Glasgow whose family never fought in a war, and who has never done a day's work in his life, but lives on benefits, has a telly, has kids by three different women, drinks beer with his mates of a Friday and Saturday, and tops up his benefits with a sideline in odd jobs on the sly.

I can point you at an Asian man whose father fought for the British in the war, who worked 100 hour weeks for years to save enough to bring his family over here, and is now prepared to work as hard again to build a life for them, in whatever jobs he can get.

Again I will type slowly for you, I am not against immigration as I have repeatidly said, I am against un-controlled immigration as our island is tiny and resource limited, so get back in your box. Its because of wooly liberals such as you this country has gone to the dogs with political correctness and ill thought out policies that do nothing to enhance of better the lives of the natives.

And in the post above I have no doubt you are making it up 'working 100 hours a week' sure he did maybe he was your man servant on the pkantation right ?

Why are you so keen to bad mouth your fellow scotsman ?
150

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 14:14:47
#173 There's no doubt that we need to improve efforts to make recent immigrants fit in better with local culture. But we should not overstate the shared heritage argument - it is only recent changes in the mobility of populations and in communications that have homogenised cultures to the extent that we talk of Scottishness or Britishness. 100 years ago my Edinburgh ancestors would have had precious little in common with the folk of Orkney; indeed there is still a vast difference.

We can make it a lot easier for immigrants to fit in in our localities. If we don't want to, then we are hypocritical to blame the immigrants for it.
151

Findlay Thompson,

05/02/2008 14:16:57
The past & present Governments of the UK only think of the here and now. Back in the 40's & 50's Asian's, Caribbean's & African's were welcomed to this country. 1. Because of scarcity of manpower after WWII. 2. They were more than prepared to do particular types of work the locals didn’t want to.

In an ideal world these groups of peoples, differing races & religions should have integrated well with the UK population.

That never happened... The majority of peoples from the Indian sub-continent stick to their own castes/religious groups. Middle Easterners tend generally to put Islam its edicts & teachings, laws before their host nation's principles etc.

Currently we have a housing shortage in this country, social trends, single parent families, people who wish to invest in property on their own etc. So at present housing is very hard to find and unbelievably expensive.

Because we are members of the EEC we have to, without argument, have to accept an influx of peoples from other member states (I am unaware if there are limits to each countries outpouring of people).

At present in the urban environment we are not to far away from saturation point. Unfortunately Local government and the EEC leadership cannot see this and the potential damage that may befall ours & other European Countries/ societies is too horrendous to think about.

I pray for our children's future.
152

Miss H,

05/02/2008 14:18:42
176 You have never met an asylum seeker in your life. I have found that without exception, people who are most bigoted aginst asylum seekers are those who know least about them. You just need someone to despise.
153

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 14:19:15
#177 I see you are not going to respond to rational argument. You held up George Alagiah as someone who opposed immigration when he explicitly did the opposite. And now, with no logic left in your armoury, you throw a pathetic accusation of lack of patriotism in my direction. Your argument is in tatters. Sadly, you can't see it.
154

Miss H,

05/02/2008 14:27:57
177 Working 100 hours a week is quite believable. My local corner shop is open from 8 till 10 seven days a week and is run by one Asian couple. That is by no means unusual in Glasgow.
155

\seasider,

Saltcoats 05/02/2008 14:28:17
#174
Are you quoting from figures supplied by NuLabour? All I read about are people who's waiting time for hospital appointments has lengthened.
At no time did I state it was a flood situation (yet) but it is certainly a problem requiring to be addressed. N.A.C. is of course well known to have a open arms policy on the matter. Incidentally there is no apparent sign in my town of increased services. There are though some new Romanian Big issue sellers and a few much needed East European buskers.
#172
Common sense would tell you from the immigration figures that they must put a additional burden on the system (all sections). Do these immigrants not require hospital,dentists doctors etc?. I think Duncan that you must be living in some different world from the real one.
156

Redfive,

05/02/2008 14:30:47
181
Duncan in Edinburgh

Funny how you never seem to answer any of my points on un-controlled immigration and the finite resources of the UK. And by ending you comment in 'Your agrument is in tatters' does nothing, because my argument is wholey valid as many posters on here can see. Although my arguments are not perfect there can be no dening the point I have repeatidly made, one you seem to have diferculty accepting.
I do however wish you no ill feeling, I can accept that we may have differing views and if after these posts you still feel un-contolled immigration is great for the UK so be it, after all we are (still barely) a freeish country.
157

georgia,

usa, outside chicago 05/02/2008 14:31:19
When I called the British Consulate in Chicago several years ago, I was told that in order to emigrate to England, I would need guaranteed income of $50,000 (about 25,000 pounds), a promise of a job, and further guarantees of my not becoming a person on the dole!! I told the man I had a Bachelors degree, but that didn't seem to impress him...I am sure those who come to your shores don't have all those guaranteed incomes, etc. - why should I need them?? We were once your Colony, too, in the good ol' US of A, and even though India is no longer a colony, for instance, its citizens are going over there in droves....Unfair, I say....

As for the man in sunny Florida, his idea of immigration is a bit "sunny" as well....Too much time in the sun-ny, as a matter of fact....
158

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 14:34:31
#183 Knowing Miss H, she is probably more likely to be quoting from SNP ministers; and in this instance she's right. Glad to hear that these effects have in fact not made themselves apparent in your locality. Perhaps there is a conclusion to be drawn from that?

As far as your equation 'more immigrants = more services needed', you appear to have missed the rather vital fact that immigrant workers contribute taxes and therefore support those services. In fact, since in Scotland a far smaller percentage of immigrant workers claim benefits compared to Scots, the overall effect is that there is more money available to spend on providing these services, not less. No wonder the waiting lists are going down!
159

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 05/02/2008 14:34:35
Why ARE some posters picking on Duncan from Edinburgh?

For the most part his opinions and facts are cogent and well-reasoned.

They may be picking on him because they are ignorant and xenophobic and just plain DUMB - at least some of them.

We are now at posting 180 - how many more will tread into these controversial waters and perhaps drown in their own illogic and fuzzy thinking?
160

Redfive,

05/02/2008 14:36:08
177 Working 100 hours a week is quite believable.

Um i think the orignal post stated one man worked a 100 hours a week I did not say it was impossible but I think the poster made it up, and your example states a couple work 100 hours a week well thats two of them and makes 50 each if they share the corner shop work doesn't it ?
161

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 05/02/2008 14:37:01
it only takes one or two of these illegal immigrants to blow themselves up (a matter of time before that happens) up in a city centre to show their "hatred" for the western society they want to change then maybe we will see some sense.

There is only so much pandering and media suppression over the obvious threat to our national security that will be tolerated.
162

Scottish AND British,

Edinburgh (but I WAS in Tower Hamlets last week!) 05/02/2008 14:48:41
#145 - surely citing a Daily Mail article in support of your arguments is the ultimate in self-parody?
163

Duncan in Edinburgh,

Edinburgh 05/02/2008 14:51:19
#190 Actually, citing a Daily Mail article in support of your arguments which turns out NOT to support your arguments is the ultimate in self-parody. :-)
164

\seasider,

Saltcoats 05/02/2008 14:53:24
#186
I think the tax paid by these immigrant workers you talk of will be more than swallowed up by the money spent on the legal/illegal ones via immigration officials,housing,social services,legal fees,food clothing,travel etc.
165

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 14:53:27
#188 I did indeed quite clearly make both examples up. However, I am familiar with people who work 100 hours a week, often in more than one job, and usually low-paid. It's the sort of action that can lift a person out of the "benefits trap".
166

Miss H,

05/02/2008 14:54:07
188 Not really. I said the shop is open from 8 till 10 seven days a week. There is also stock-taking, buying, not to mention the little matter of doing the books!

167

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 14:54:35
#192 How convenient for you.
168

\seasider,

Saltcoats 05/02/2008 14:57:14
#189
And that I am sure will happen sooner if not later.
169

Miss H,

05/02/2008 14:58:34
183 No I am quoting from figures supplied by the SNP Government. I don't think that you have actually read anywhere that waiting times for hospital appointments have lengthened because they haven't. They have gone down. This is due in no small part to all the immigrants who work in the NHS.


170

The Fly Fifer,

fife 05/02/2008 14:59:33
194 yes "doing the books", skimming off profits from a majority cash based sales outlet is SO easy, most of the cash goes abroad to help pay for killing off (in some cases) women who have disrespected their family by falling in love with a older Uncle in the "old country" therefore lost income,

171

Miss H,

05/02/2008 15:00:32
198 .... Ach no I am not even going to bother. You are beyond rational thought.
172

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 15:01:42
#189 I assume that you argued in favour of rooting out all Irish immigrants at the time of the IRA mainland terrorist offensive? No? That'd be tricky wouldn't it. Cos you can't tell an Irishman by looking at him. But you can tell a Muslim terrorist, eh?

Stupid stupid idiot.
173

\seasider,

Saltcoats 05/02/2008 15:04:01
#198
Your right.
174

rawhide ,

05/02/2008 15:09:49
138 Duncan.
Immigrants in Glasgow are given a free car , free radio and a free gps system, also they are given a free taxi license, where as NATIVES HAVE TOO BUY THEIR OWN.
One of my friends who has been driving taxis for five years is now unemployed because of this system.
The money comes from westmonster to persuade them to move out of england.
175

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 15:17:47
#202 Do you have any evidence at all that this is true? What is the scheme called? Which department runs it? Anything evidential that can be confirmed? Because it really sounds like a right crock.
176

Miss H,

05/02/2008 15:19:37
202 Total nonsense. Do you never stop and think how mad you sound saying these kinds of things? It pretty much guarantees that no-one is going to take you seriously.
177

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 15:21:29
#198 Most of the cash from Asian-run shops goes abroad to pay for honour killings. Is that seriously what you have just said? And #201, you agree with this?

Do you just read the paper and then assume that what it talks about must be happening everywhere all the time? Everyone on the internet is a paedophile? Every child on a housing estate has an ASBO? And every immigrant is a benefit-cheating, honour-killing sponger?

Grow a brain.
178

Geomac 1,

Kinross 05/02/2008 15:22:24
#168 Miss H - you make a lot of statements which seem to counter each other:
1. "The issue with the legacy cases is that these people never got a decision" - yes they did and their application was unsuccessful - many after appeal!
2 "It is not the case that they were found to be illegal immigrants." If their application has failed they are illegally here - no?
3. "It is not the case that they had been through the asylum process and had failed........ They made their initial application which may have been rejected because they filled out the wrong form or did not tick a particular box." Sorry but I simply don't believe that with all the help given by the immigration support organisations (and their lawyers), that the reasons for failure were all that simple - if they were, then I add to my criticism of the government system.
4 "They appealed and .... nothing. So you have people left in a state of limbo without a passport,....." Hmmm - did the lose their passports or destroy them?
5 "So what you are talking about is not illegal immigration on a massive scale,......... Oh yes I am - the numbers are massive when you take into account illegal immigrants and asylum seekers with no case for asylum!!
6."Incidentally how many asylum seekers are there in Kinross?" What exactly has that to do with anything? but I would guess at around 20 or so.

Miss H - in order to address the problem, you first of all have to acknowledge that it exists and, yes, the government has a significant failure to acknowledge and , yes, if you take a select individual case (as the Scotsman has done) you can always make a justification but the bottom line is that we in the UK MUST have a credible and fair system for immigration and asylum which favours the needy and deserving and not the most devious and dishonest. Surely even you must acknowledge that? And that we simply cannot absorb all those who would like to come here - this would be an impossibility!
I have tried to be reasonable
179

\seasider,

Saltcoats 05/02/2008 15:27:35
#205
My last post #201 agreed with #198 that should read agreement with #188.
180

Geomac 1,

Kinross 05/02/2008 15:28:45
#204 Miss H
Sorry but you cannot deny facts like you do - there are clear cases where immigrants, who need their own transport who have beenn told to find a car and to present an invoice - then a cheque is written for the selected vehicle.
I know it must be tough to try to argue some of the points made in these postings but you too need to be careful that you don't make incorrect statements - much of which is public knowledge.
181

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 15:32:40
If you are going to lecture people on accuracy then you need to learn the difference between

"there are clear cases where immigrants, who need their own transport who have been told to find a car and to present an invoice"

- which may or may not be true - and

"Immigrants in Glasgow are given a free car, free radio and a free gps system, also they are given a free taxi license"

- which simply isn't true.
182

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 05/02/2008 15:42:58
Duncan in Peado capital of the world, it has been said that 707 independant single user, credit card paying Edinburgh habitated citizens are paying for and looking at inappropriate porn, thats a lot of people needing killed, the streets of Glasgow and Edinburgh are unsafe, from both ends of the spectrum, the low life junkie scum gangs and the upper end over paid 22- 29 year olds in good jobs who let their hair down by binge drinking at the w/e.

There are ghettos in Aberdeen Edinburgh Glasgow and Dundee, growing by the day and filling with people whose outlook on life is to change western society into a Muslim one.

The police are TOLD to not arrest, charge or harrass Travelling people, I pass EVERY day a camp of these filth mongers in a layby who have no tax discs on their rusty vans, I assume no insurance and an MOT is pretty unlikely, their kids are ill kempt, and does not look like they go to school,

And what are people worried about? keeping som ebits of paper for psterity of a bygone era when Scottish Banks meant something.

Scotland is just about finished as a nation, and it is sad.
183

rawhide ,

05/02/2008 15:51:07
204 Miss H.
My unemployed friend is not a lier, neither are his mates who had to quit taxi driving.
Just because westmonster doesn't plaster this type of incentive all over the liebour media does not make it untrue.
184

rawhide ,

05/02/2008 15:52:38
As for duncan he will be proved wrong.
blah,blah ,blah.
185

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 15:54:54
#212 Did you read my post as #203? Rather than asserting facts, show some evidence, and I will believe you. I'm afraid "blah, blah, blah" doesn't count.
186

Geomac 1,

Kinross 05/02/2008 15:55:12
#209 Duncan
I DID NOT MAKE THE STATEMENT ""Immigrants in Glasgow are given a free car, free radio and a free gps system, also they are given a free taxi license"

BUT THE ONE I DID MAKE NAMELY: ""there are clear cases where immigrants, who need their own transport who have been told to find a car and to present an invoice"
What I have said is accurate and I am free to make such statements So why exactly are you taking it upon yourself to lecture ME when the two quotes you make are from different people? I am perfectly aware of the difference between the two statements without your having to point it out!!!!!!
187

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 15:57:46
#210 You are a classic example of The Problem.

Who said that 707 people in Edinburgh were paying for and looking at inappropriate porn? The media. Not the justice system, not the courts. These are not convicted people, this is just a number being thrown around by the media for shock value, And yet, there it is implanted in your brain as if it were fact.

Wake up! Apply your brain to the information with which you are presented! Not everything you are told is true!
188

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 15:59:50
#214 Your post at #208 was in response to #204 which was in response to #202. If you considered #202 to be untrue why did you attack #204's condemnation of it? Anyone reading that stream of comments can see that you were effectively defending #202.
189

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 16:16:24
Duncan has been working hard today to shout down those he disagrees with. He has lots of help from big hearted folks who want to be seen as tolerant and inclusive. We are told that we conflate refugees with immigrants. We are told we need more folk to grow the economy. We are told that, anyway, there is no such thing as a Scot - we are all immigrants.

When asked for specifics we are offered open ended arguments. How many immigrants per year? Answer - as many as we need! When asked why we need them we get a Scots loathing rant about Scots being benefit scrounging ne'er-dae-weells and immigrants being hard working decent folk..

We have no asylum seekers in Scotland. What we have is economic migrants trying to get in the back door ( see my post at 13 ). Having failed to be granted asylum these folks are, apparently, allowed to stay for seven years and then are accepted "because of the way they have integrated into their local community."

Arguments that immigrants contribute economically to the nation are false. The studies I have read suggest, that at best, immigration is revenue neutral. For the UK that means 600,000 revenue neutral immigrants per year. Equivalent to the populations of Aberdeen and Edinburgh combined - every year.

Don't you dare question this though! You will be vilified. You will be characterized as small minded xenophobes, idiots, and scum. How dare you question these big hearted, liberal minded, immigrant friendly intellectuals. You should just go cash your Giro and shut up.

Here's an idea - why don't those supporting the open door policies of the UK government prove their case? Demonstrate the benefits of their multicultural vision of our future! Tell us exactly how many people will be living on these islands before we are full up - 70, 80, 90, 100 million? How many?
190

Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 05/02/2008 16:23:57
The problem is not that people do not want to help. The problem is we cannot afford to help. I do not give all my money to charity. I take care of my family first.A country is just a bigger example of this model. The debate is truelly about the level of inward immigration.

We have built many successfull economic systems in Western Europe that are being destroyed by various factors adding to the financial crippling of the welfare state.

How welcome can we really afford to be ?

191

Geomac 1,

Kinross 05/02/2008 16:24:39
216 Duncan
Pedantry rules!
192

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 16:30:04
#217 A lovely misrepresentation of what has been said, well done.

I'd be obliged if you would back up your statement that "Arguments that immigrants contribute economically to the nation are false" with something more substantial than the waffle you have so far used.

Miss H quoted an article from this very newspaper which gave the evidence that less than 0.1% of recent immigrants to Scotland of working age have claimed benefits. This compares to 17% of the population as a whole who are either partially or totally dependent on benefits.

That isn't a Scots-loathing rant, however you might like to pretend it is. It's a fact. And it shows that there is a significant benefit to this country the more immigrant workers we can bring in.

17% of working age people in Scotland are on benefits, compared to less than 0.1% of recent immigrants. Case proven.
193

\seasider,

Saltcoats 05/02/2008 16:30:31
#217
I will definitely agree with you. You are quite correct in saying that if you question the policy you will be vilified. How many do we need, no answer, what do they contribute,various answers, the final figure,sky seems to be the limit. Liberal minded, immigrant friendly intellectuals? Yes to liberal minded, yes to immigrant friendly, intellectuals? I think not, only in their own estimation, as will one day be proved.
194

Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 05/02/2008 16:34:55
#217 - Well said.

I used to be one of those loony leftist appologist who want an all inclusive happy clappy love fest for all. As time has passed I read more economic reports about the costs of the welfare system and the drain on public purse.

How much did it cost this country in the 7 years for this one person in the article to be refused asylum, be provided for for 7 years and now be granted asylum.

(I wonder how much 'cash in hand' work she did during that time ?)

The numbers do not lie, the economy has no emotion. Once the system breaks we will have only our selves to blame. Then there will be blood on the streets.
195

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 16:36:53
#221 This single criticism, the best that you collectively can come up with, that no-one has put a precise figure on the number of immigrants we need is a non-issue.

Today's economy in Scotland could do with perhaps another 50-100,000 qualified workers. The economy grows all the time, and we are told by the brave Salmond that it will be growing ever faster. So next year more will be needed.

Your inability to grasp this should not be confused with any lack of availability of this answer.
196

kimba,

05/02/2008 16:39:03
A polish girl stopped me and asked if I would please buy a copy of the Big Issue,I did,and as I was walking away she said "thank you,your country has been so good to me,I will work hard for my new country";pity they all don't feel that way.
197

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 16:39:43
#222 If you are concerned about the cost of the welfare system you are aiming your ire in the wrong direction. A far grater proportion of the already resident Scots population is dependent on benefits than of the immigrant population.

Laying this at the door of immigrants has simply no basis in fact.
198

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 16:40:22
#226 grater = greater, sigh.
199

Geomac 1,

Kinross 05/02/2008 16:45:39
#225 - selling the Big Issue Kimba!!! That really helps our country - well spotted!!
200

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 05/02/2008 16:46:14
220 Facts please not hearsay ............ one single penny spent on keeping an ILLEGAL immigrant in Scotland is far too much.

once refused, fingerprint them photograph them and put them on a coach back to where they came from.

If the asylum seeker is granted asylum, first job health screen them, get them to learn English both written and spoken, make sure they do not join up to form No-Go Ghetto areas, make sur ethat the females know that in this country they have EQUAL rights and that female circumcision is CHILD ABUSE make sur eth ewomen and girls are told they can marry anyone they want when legally old enough to do so, that the females can request at any port of exit that if they say they do not want to leave the country to marry Old Uncle whoever that they are at once given secure protection from the family they want to get away from, make sure accepted asylum seekers find work at any level as soon as possible and get them integrated 100% if they don't like that get them back to the country they left to remind them why they left in the first place
201

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 16:46:27
220 - How many? How many before the UK is full up? Come on don't be coy.
202

Allan(handofgod137),

05/02/2008 16:48:49
#180 Miss H, once again you're wrong, several years ago I met an Iraqi living in Dundee, who was seeking asylum, he speaks fluent english, and has a degree in geology, since being granted asylum, he has made no effort to find work, and is happy to live on benefits.
He and his muslim mates also had a big party the night of September 11th. You may want his sort here, I, and the majority of right thinking people do not.
203

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 16:51:56
Aye - they useless Scots that aren't Scots 'cause we're aw immigrants that wullnae work so we need immigrants that aren't immigrants 'cause they're asylum seekers who are hard working though they can't work for seven years after they were denied asylum but can noo stay 'cause we need them to work 'cause the Scots who aren't Scots won't work - aye!
204

\seasider,

Saltcoats 05/02/2008 16:53:10
#223
Absolute rubbish. As far as I am concerned (and many like me) we do not need any more immigrants. Where you get this 50,000-100,000 qualified workers from God knows. If we need that amount of qualified how many unqualified or Big Issue sellers do we need or have you no figures for that? I think the Government should spend the money being squandered at present on immigration to a better use by training our own youth to fill these posts you talk of.

205

Captainofedinburgh,

Edinburgh 05/02/2008 16:53:19
I was going to post something new on here, but I really can't be bothered. The crass stupidy of some people really does amaze me. I just hope people from outside Scotland aren't reading this article and its various billious comments thinking that they are representative of our country. Ignorance is bliss eh?
206

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 16:54:45
#231 Wow, you've met an asylum seeker, and he wasn't very nice, and now you think all asylum seekers aren't very nice. Well done. What a simple world you must live in. Lord help you if you ever met a nice, hard-working asylum seeker. That would really screw your world view wouldn't it.
207

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 05/02/2008 16:58:49
# 234 I hope they are!!!! especially those in USA who think of Scotland as some warm cosy "old country" where all is well.

Not the filthy, stank, unproductive place it is becoming .......................

When I am afraid to walk out in Edinburgh of a saturday evening then there is something wrong
208

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 16:59:39
The open door immigration policy of the UK is bankrupt. The peoples of the UK do not now nor ever have supported this policy. We have never been offered an opportunity to vote on this via a referendum even though the standard is that constitutional change requires a referendum for legitimacy. Who would deny that the policy of multiculturalism is not the biggest constitutional change the UK has experienced in hundreds of years. But our betters have decided that our views don't count. Democracy - Grand!
209

kimba,

05/02/2008 17:00:44
228,what is she supposed to do sit on her ar-e and claim benefit?
210

Iain fae Elgin,

London 05/02/2008 17:01:56
Looks like we have two options.

Let as many people that want to come here, come here, no matter their circumstances, race, gender, religion, whatever.

Or...

Realise that at some point we have to be either selective or just stop immigration all together, for reason of economics and space if nothing else.

Either option will of course annoy/disgust at least one sector of the population. That just seems to be life.

It is obviously imperative that we get it right. Given the weakness of our currently elected representatives I find that highly unlikely.
211

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 17:03:16
#233 Interesting proposal. So you would like to spend lots of money on training our resident young people to make them more employable. Welcome to the political reality. Government has been trying to do this for generations, with varying success. How do you propose motivating those people? How much money should we spend? How about introducing a minimum wage? Or a working tax credit system? Not enough? Do you want to cut the NHS budget to fund extra training - making longer waiting lists? Or the social services budget, resulting in loss of services? Or would you like it to happen by magic?
212

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 17:05:27
#237 What are you havering about a referendum? There is far less immigration today than there was in the 50s. Did you want a referendum then? Constitutional change - this argument is getting more surreal by the minute.
213

Miss H,

05/02/2008 17:06:02
Nobody can put an exact figure on how many immigrants we need to replace population loss but we can say that our population is projected to decline by a quarter of a million people by 2044. That is equivalent to losing a town the size of Dingwall or Dunbar every year.

Not only is the population declining, it is ageing. Over the next generation, Scotland is predicted to have 142,000 fewer children and 208,000 fewer working age people. The only population segment that is growing in Scotland is people over 60.

The solutions put forward by the SNP to reverse that population decline involve a combination of retaining more skilled people in Scotland, attracting more economic migrants and having more family friendly policies to increase the fertility rate. A Scottish-specific immigration policy is seen as essential. Even within the devolved context it would be a possibility. Quebec has its own immigration system for example.

Read this document for the full policy: http://www.snp.org/policies/economicgrowth




214

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 17:06:51
#239 Congratulations on your construction of today's largest straw man. That is not the choice facing us, nor need it ever be.
215

Allan(handofgod137),

05/02/2008 17:10:55
#235 I've met more than 1, please try and stick to the facts without feeble attempts at sarcasm, I realise that you can't help your skewed leftist viewpoint, as you seem to buy into what the press and leftie politicians tell you to believe. Wake up and look around you, or ask your carers to take you out more.
216

Iain fae Elgin,

London 05/02/2008 17:11:51
#243....actually a wee straw dolly.

Terribly bad structure, I can't even count my own options!

Let everyone in.....let no one in....or be more selective.

I still think any of these options will disgust/annoy etc etc.
217

Iain fae Elgin,

London 05/02/2008 17:13:20
Just out of interest, a straw poll if you like, which would YOU prefer?
218

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 17:16:56
241 Duncan in Edinburgh, 05/02/2008 17:05:27 posts:

(I have removed your insults and kept only your contention.

#237 There is far less immigration today than there was in the 50s.

Really? Numbers please.
219

\seasider,

Saltcoats 05/02/2008 17:19:47
#240
The political reality is 600 odd MPs in London and 120 odd in Edinburgh all head down in the trough leading this country to ruin. As I said spend the money on youth training. A few rule changes would soon motivate them. I do not remember many arguing with having to go on National service. As I already said spend the money at present squandered on immigration.
220

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/02/2008 17:22:27
#242 Miss H

Rampant immigration since 1997 has been a cover for the fact that NuLabour, and any other party for that matter, has hasn't had the balls to tackle the feckless, unemployable underclass that has been allowed to develop and suck the lifeblood of our economy. Yes, the population is ageing, but there's a huge reservoir of untapped indigenous labour that could be used to support the elderly.
221

Miss H,

05/02/2008 17:23:16
To put it in context, the Jobs Ireland campaign lasted three years and attracted 280,000 new workers to Ireland. The Irish population is predicted to pass the 5 million mark at around the same time that Scotland drops below it. If people want Scotland to be an uncompetitive backwater with an ageing population then shutting the door to immigration is the way to do it.
222

busbyfh,

05/02/2008 17:23:36
Yes , in a few years it will be like cities in the USA -Welcome to little Iran , to Little Poland and Little Iraq. It has started here already - Little France.
223

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 05/02/2008 17:25:15
By his many - too many - postings in these forums the Fly Fifer has shown himself to be one of THE stupidest posters still drunk or not drugged enough to post.

It is a wonder that Scotland can give birth to such brilliant men and women in the past and present and yet is spawns such mental defectives as the vile Fly Fifer.

Reprehensible person.
224

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 05/02/2008 17:26:00
#225 Kimba

LIAR!
225

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 17:27:04
241 - Here are some numbers for you:

The black population of Britain declined during the course of the 19th century, and according to David Killingray, census returns suggested the following estimated figures for Africans in the UK: 1911 - 4,540, 1921 - 4,940, 1931 - 5,202, 1951 - 11,000. Most came from West Africa, were male, and lived mainly in London or the other major ports of Liverpool, Bristol and Cardiff.37 Killingray suspects the designation "African" was intended to include immigrants from the Caribbean and America.

The West Indian Comes to England states, "The movement of West Indians to the United Kingdom was unimportant until 1954 and it would appear that the number never exceeded 1,000 per year before 1951, with an average of 2,000 in 1952 and 1953. In 1954 the figure was 10,000 and in the three succeeding years rose to over 20,000 per year: 1955 - 24,473, 1956 - 26,441, 1957 - 22,473, 1958 - 16,511 … The estimated West Indian population in the United Kingdom at 31st December, 1957 was 99,823."38 The 1991 Census put the black population at 890,727.

INDIANS AND CHINESE 1700 and onwards
There was no organised migration of Indians into Britain before WW2. However, tiny numbers of sailors, students, and professionals had been entering Britain since India's first contact with the Empire. Most returned after their mission was accomplished. As recently as 1939 the Indian population of the City of Birmingham was estimated at 100 -- that is, one hundred.39 The total of both Indians and Pakistanis in Britain in 1955 was 10,700.40 The 1991 Census put the number of Indians and Pakistanis at 840,255 and 476,555 respectively, and 162,835 Bangladeshis.

Most of the early Chinese arrived as seamen, after the treaties of Nanking in 1842 and Peking in 1860 opened up China to British trade. However, their population in Britain remained very small. In 1871 it was recorded as 207, and as 1,319 in 1911.41 The 1991 Census put the number of Chinese in Britain at 15
226

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 17:28:31
254 - continued:

EUROPEANS including GERMANS AND ITALIANS
Throughout the 18th and 19th centuries, there was a steady trickle of people from all over Europe. In England and Wales, the 1871 census recorded 32,823 Germans out of an overall European-born population of 89,829, in a total English and Welsh population of approximately 33 million. Scotland's population at the time was around 3,350,000. In 1911 the English and Welsh census recorded 53,324 foreign-born Germans.42

In England and Wales, the 1871 census recorded an Italian population of 5,063 and by 1911 this number was 20,389. In Scotland, census returns for these years were 268 and 4,594 Italians respectively.43

BELGIANS 1914-1918
Some 19,000 wounded Belgian soldiers arrived during the war. In addition, 240,000 Belgian refugees were scattered throughout Britain by 1919.44 Virtually all were repatriated, and in 1921 there were 9,892 recorded in Britain.45

POLES
In the 1931 census there were 44,462 people claiming Poland as their birthplace. Those who arrived during WW2 and stayed on, constitute the core of the present-day Polish community. In 1951 there were 162,339 Polish-born people in Britain. By 1971 the figure had dropped to 110,925.46

POWs during WW2, and POST-WAR LABOUR RECRUITMENT
There were 334,000 German and Italian POWs employed in areas such as agriculture.47 Some 15,700 Germans and 1,000 Italians remained after the war. The rest were repatriated.48 After WW2, work-permit schemes recruited Germans, Italians, Ukrainians, Austrians and Poles, although not all remained. Kathleen Paul writes: "A conservative tally of the total number of aliens recruited under the Attlee government [July 1945-October 1951] yields around 345,000 … By 1952, 110,000 work-permit applicants had been resident in the country for over four years and may be counted among those aliens who planned to make their home in postwar Britain."49
227

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 17:31:02
Today the UK government admits to 600,000 immigrants per year - but can you trust their figures?
228

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 05/02/2008 17:31:42
#249 Draco

You are also making it up, aren't you?

Your posting has no foundations in reality.
229

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 17:32:29
#247 There were no insults in my comment.

About 1.5 million people from Commonwealth countries immigrated to the UK during the 1950s.
230

Miss H,

05/02/2008 17:33:32
251 Cosmopolitanism is what cities are about. That is what attracts people to go and live there. It is what makes places like New York and London and Paris and Dublin dynamic and successful and exciting. It's what our cities should aspire to as well.
231

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2008 17:35:02
#256 That includes inter-European migration, which is hardly the same thing since we exist in a single market.
232

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 17:35:23
254 - last number should read 156,938.
233

Miss H,

05/02/2008 17:39:05
For info the article posted by An Beal Bacht was written by a guy called Alistair McConnachie and posted on the website of an organisation called soverignty which has a right wing, anti-immigration, pro- union agenda.

http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/index.html

Read it and weep.

234

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/02/2008 17:41:29
#257 The Tin Man

In what way is it irrational? Do you deny that both the UK and Scottish governments have repeatedly stated that foreign workers are required to fill skils gaps? Are there not 100,000s, if not millions, of UK-born people not economically active? I agree we may need some Iraqi astrophysicist when no British equivalent is available. But do we really need foreigners to grade carrots and pick raspberries when there are third generation members of the underclass doing hee-haw for their 'wages'? I think it's you who needs to address the reality in many areas of our country.
235

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/02/2008 17:46:24
#250 Miss H

The Irish population has been growing largely because of the return of many indigenous Irish people to the expanding Irish economy. The increase is return driven not non-Irish immgration. Although I concede the Irish have also been experiencing the problems caused by dodgy asylum claimants.
236

giuseppe de santis,

london 05/02/2008 17:50:03
This is crazy!
It's time for people to wake up and support the British National Party
237

Iain fae Elgin,

London 05/02/2008 17:55:45
#265....dear oh dear.

If we hadn't reached the gutter before, we have now.
238

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 05/02/2008 17:57:31
# 200 Duncan... "at the time of the IRA mainland terrorist offensive" Mainland to where? Surely not to Ireland! Ireland is an independent sovereign state.However ,presently part of the Irish nation is occupied by England,occupied I may add against the wishes of 88% of the people on the island of Ireland.Rightly or wrongly maybe thats why their was a bombing campaign on the English mainland in the first place.Get my drift? When I say English mainland I say that considering that Scotland is still part of England,and always will be as long as there are people like you around the place.
239

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 05/02/2008 17:57:32
# 200 Duncan... "at the time of the IRA mainland terrorist offensive" Mainland to where? Surely not to Ireland! Ireland is an independent sovereign state.However ,presently part of the Irish nation is occupied by England,occupied I may add against the wishes of 88% of the people on the island of Ireland.Rightly or wrongly maybe thats why their was a bombing campaign on the English mainland in the first place.Get my drift? When I say English mainland I say that considering that Scotland is still part of England,and always will be as long as there are people like you around the place.
240

floggit,

05/02/2008 18:01:45
I think they should get business grants just like the American immigrants always get.
241

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 18:03:16
Duncan -

CLearly you wish to obfuscate but for the best of reasons. You try to be a nice bloke and that's okay. You seem to feel that to be opposed to uncontrolled immigration is tantamount to racism. You, and others, object to people voicing their concerns on the subject and castigate those with views you don't agree with. You fail to provide any numbers to back up your arguments and dissimulate when they are provided for you.

Just tell me Duncan - How many people will be living in the UK before you agree that we are full up? Just a ball park figure.
242

Ganjass,

05/02/2008 18:03:19
A proper debate is required in Scotland to assess what this current situation is going to mean long term for Scotland.
Lets no forget that the current infrastructure in Scotland is not good enough and offers low value for money for the incumbent population that supports it.

If we let in a large volume of people with little or no means of contributing to the growth and prospority of Scotland, then all we will do is make Scotland a worse place to live and all the educated workers will go in the opposite direction to a country like Australia that is 100's of times larger and 100's of times more stringent on who they let in!

Just taking a backlog from England is not a good enough reason for tax payers to bear the brunt of what is a very important issue, that has never been propely addressed in the fear that it may offend!
243

John Blackley,

Winter Garden, FL 05/02/2008 18:04:46
#11 An Beal Bacht - the weather's beautiful, thanks for asking. 82 degrees and sunny today.

I don't reckon they have fixed the electronic voting machines - nor do I reckon it'll make much difference in the grand scheme of things. I don't have a vote so I don't have a stake.

Thanks for the good wishes and I'm looking forward to being home in a couple of months. Perhaps one of our newly-minted legal immigrants will be the first to welcome me at Glasgow airport.
244

floggit,

05/02/2008 18:08:35
Speaking of the poor. Poor me who has been stalked by heterosexual male and female pedophiles almost since my mother's some 37-38 years ago and hearing accounts of my siblings being removed from their beds in the night. Well poor me was again bothered in the street by two of these mentally deranged psycho's masquerading as people with learning difficulties very near to my home. Police did nothing to protect me as a child even when I approached them on the way to a school of some sort from St Marthas 17-19 Spital Aberdeen. That was earlier today.
245

floggit,

05/02/2008 18:10:15
Amendment to #273

Speaking of the poor. Poor me who has been stalked by heterosexual male and female pedophiles almost since my mother's "death" some 37-38 years ago and.......
246

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 18:14:16
262 - Miss H, 05/02/2008 17:39:05

"For info the article posted by An Beal Bacht was written by a guy called Alistair McConnachie and posted on the website of an organisation called sovereignty which has a right wing, anti-immigration, pro- union agenda."

Miss H. you are correct in that this is where the numbers came from. As to your characterization of the web site as having "a right wing, anti-immigration, pro- union agenda" I couldn't say. I simply googled a question to help Duncan with his assertions.

However, it is interesting that that you don't question the figures they supply - so I take you accept them as accurate?
247

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 18:22:55
272 - John Blackley:

Hi John! It is entirely probable that you will be greeted by a newly employed immigrant (of the illegal variety) working as security personal upon your return. However, perhaps their status will have changed by then. 50 families a week was it?

248

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 18:24:24
271 - Ganjass, 05/02/2008 18:03:19:

Good post!
249

Miss H,

05/02/2008 18:42:19
271 You want us to be more like Australia? Since 1945 Australia has taken in over 6 million economic migrants. That is 30% of their population. If that is what you want for Scotland feel free to say so!

250

Miss H,

05/02/2008 18:43:34
275 If you are wise you check your sources.
251

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 18:45:26
279Miss H, 05/02/2008 18:43:34;

So the numbers are correct?
252

Miss H,

05/02/2008 18:53:23
270 Nobody is in favour of uncontrolled immigration. We are in favour of controlled immigration that is sufficient to fill unfilled vacancies, add value to the Scottish economy and make Scotland a more competitive place to do business. The SNP Government is in favour of that, so are the Scottish branches of Labour and the Lib Dem parties and even the Tories are on board north of the border.

If you are against immigration feel free to take your case to the Scottish people. The only party which contested the election on an anti-immigration ticket was the BNP and they got 1.2% of the vote. Maybe you can do better. However I doubt it as most know that immigration is necessary. We live in a globalised world, goods and capital are mobile, ideas and culture are mobile - so are people. You cannot turn back the clock.

As regards the subject of the article you are commenting on. It is about the legacy case families in Glasgow - 1,100 of them. Thus far 600 have been granted leave to remain, I hope that the rest are also given leave to remain. I also hope that Dungavel is shut down sooner rather than later, as press reports indicate it will be. Most of all I hope that the SNP Government succeeds in gaining powers over asylum and immigration and uses those powers not only to deliver a faster and fairer system but to educate people like you out of your Daily Mail-induced paranoid bigotry.

253

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 19:00:59
Clearly, as Ganjass asserts, we need to have an open and honest debate on this subject. Our political leaders should tell us what their positions are, where they see our country being (demographically) in another 50 years, and how big a population they believe our islands can sustain.

I believe Duncan and Miss H. are good people who valiantly posted their thoughts against a tide of ridicule and bile. I commend both of you.
254

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 19:11:46
281 - Miss H, 05/02/2008 18:53:23;

Oh Miss h. - you cut me to the quick!

"... to educate people like you out of your Daily Mail-induced paranoid bigotry."

In my own defense I must point out that I haver never read the Daily Mail. Moreover, I don't believe any of my posts on this thread have indicated that I was either paranoid or bigoted. I ask you to show me anything that I have posted that would make you think that.

It is with great sadness that I must retract that part of my last post - viz:

"I believe Duncan and Miss H. are good people who valiantly posted their thoughts against a tide of ridicule and bile. I commend both of you."

I fear you must now be included in that tide!
255

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/02/2008 19:12:40
#281 Miss H

I'm glad you've returned to the subject in hand and interested you should find it acceptable that the law can be made a mockery of as long as it suits your particular agenda. All of these families were found not to have grounds for receiving asylum here. As such they should have left the country. But no, a combination of NuLab incompetence, abuse of the appeals process by lawyers and deliberate obstruction and failure by the people concerned to abide by the rules have resulted in them being allowed to stay. It's ironic that many claim they come here because it is a country governed by the rule of law but have no qualms about making it an ass.
256

\seasider,

Saltcoats 05/02/2008 19:18:59
#284
Dead right, should have been long gone but then of course,as you say,it is a nice little earner for the human rights legal fraternity. That piece of legislation is a golden goose to them.
257

Miss H,

05/02/2008 19:21:45
284 Draco - no they weren't - read my post 168. You are right that there is a legal process to be gone through but that process was not gone through in these cases.

258

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 19:24:02
What - no apology Miss H? Think of your credibility!
259

fritigern,

Inverness 05/02/2008 19:29:06
There are two ways a so-called asylum seeker can arrive in this country. Firstly direct from their country of origin. Since none of these so-called asylum seekers originate from our neighbours in Europe, they have nearly all arrived on an international flight. So what persecution are they suffering if they can book an international flight from their country direct to the UK and freely pass through the border controls of the country supposedly persecuting them?

If they arrive via a third country then by Internationa law they should seek asylum there. How can I respect our government if it so blatantly disobeys international law?

Many of these so-called asylum seekers come from Moslem countries. There are 56 Moslem countries in the world so they have plenty of countries to which they can go and not suffer the indignity of living next to filthy pigs and monkeys. Many people of my generation had fathers and uncles who were conscripted to fight to prevent this country being invaded by Germany. Now if any one dared to fight back against the invasion of illegal immigrants and bogus asylum seekers they would end up with prison sentences longer than a POW spent in a camp in either world war.

How many of our Liberal elite have invited so-caled asylum seekers to live in their second home or even in their, usually huge, first home?
260

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/02/2008 19:32:44
I agree that the situation has not been helped by the process being swamped by sheer weight of numbers. That is not the fault of individual applicants. However, I think you'll find that most have made best use of the confusion. Ironically again, you refer to many find themselves without passports. Whose fault is that? I'd love to know how many deliberately destroyed their passports as they knew they couldn't be sent back without one. All adding to the delay. How many lied in the process? And, incidentally, most would have entered the country illegally in order to claim asylum. You can't get a visa to get here to claim asylum. The system and this country have been made a mug of. I don't blame them for trying but I object to their lies and obstruction being rewarded.
261

Iain fae Elgin,

London 05/02/2008 19:45:02
B@gger this, I'm moving to France!
262

Miss H,

05/02/2008 20:04:47
288 Read my post 133. Most of them are in Muslim countries. The countries with the largest refugee populations are in fact Iran and Pakistan. They are hosting millions upon millions of people displaced because of the wars we are waging in Iraq and Afghanistan. What will happen if America decides to invade Iran too?
263

Miss H,

05/02/2008 20:07:03
290 Who do you think has their passports? They hand them over on arrival. You clearly know sod all about it so why should I listen to anything you say?
264

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 20:10:35
294 - Miss H, 05/02/2008 20:07:03:

Why should anyone listen to anything you say? You have no credibility.
265

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 20:13:33
I think Wendy Alexander should get on this bandwagon.

"The pair wee refugees - it's aw because ae thon SNP endin ring fencin.

Aye!
266

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 20:17:15
600,000 - 600,000 - 600,000 - 600,000 - 600,000 - 600,000

SIX HUNDRED THOUSAND!

Immigrants per Year


By 2028 that will be 12 million! By 2048 that will be 24 million!

267

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/02/2008 20:23:16
# 294 Miss H

Your naivete would be quite cute if it wasn't so dangerous. Youre the one that obviously knows not a lot. Do you really think that the majority of asylum seekers present themselves at passport control and claim asylum? This isn't some Cold War Soviet ballet dancer we're talking about. The vast, vast majority arrive a) as bona fide visitors who decide they quite like it here (or more likely always knew they would quite like it here), destroy their passports then claim 'persecustion' b) are smuggled into the country. I had thought some of your arguments reasoned but your last comment betrayed you as someone who has fallen fot the Guardian's asylum industry guff.
268

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 20:32:38
298 - There's no point Draco - they make it up as they go along!
269

truthsleuth,

South of the Border 05/02/2008 20:36:28
So to clear up a backlog all can stay.
Let them sign a contract that they will not claim any state benefits. I wonder how many would head for home on the next plane.
270

Miss H,

05/02/2008 20:39:47
298 Draco. I have no idea what the majority of asylum seekers do.

I am talking about the asylum seekers - and specifically the legacy case families - settled under the NASS programme in Glasgow. That is what this article is about. People appealing the initial decision hand over their passports and all other relevant documents. They are part of the case.

271

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 20:42:25
This thread has been much more civilized than I thought it would be. Not many raving racists although a few condescending cosmopolitan creeps.
272

truthsleuth,

South of the Border 05/02/2008 20:44:27
Within the decade
The cities of Birmingham, Leicester Bradford Nottingham and possibly Derby, Leeds will have a majority poulation that is non indigenous UK citizen.

Will independence be declared,
Will Sharia law be declared
Having just got rid of Church Bells Will call to prayer become the norm
273

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/02/2008 20:45:57
#298 Miss H

If you've no idea what the majority of asylum seekers do, how can you make any sort of argument? The Glasgow cases are no different to any other asylum seekers that have settled elsewhere across the UK, or across Europe for that matter. The large majority are bogus claims. They have not been persecuted not have their lives been threatened. They merely want to come here for a better life. That's not what asylum's for. The only thing diffrerent thing about those settled in Scotland is they seem to be fortunate to have arrived at a place with a higher percentage of right-on, gullible saps. Like you.
274

Miss H,

05/02/2008 20:57:51
296 Why does what I say have no credibility?

When people make an application for asylum they hand over all documentation which is relevant to their case including their passports. That then formed part if the bundle sent for adjudication if they appealed their initial decision. That is where the system broke down and people were left in limbo, without having leave to remain but without being removed either. That this happened is not in dispute.

Your position is that those people are illegal immigrants and should be thrown out. My position is that since they have lived here for many years, since they are integrated into their communities, since many of them do have children born and brought up in Scotland - children who have never been to the 'home' you want to send them back to - they should be allowed to stay. That is also the position of the Scottish Government and the position of the Scottish Opposition. As I said earlier if you are so confident that you represent the people on this issue then prove it. Take on the establishment because if you are right they are clearly all in a gigantic conspiracy to conceal the truth ........

275

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 21:00:43
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2003/02/16400/18356

9.2.1.2 Cultural sensitivity and anti-racism

Cultural sensitivity was identified by service providers as an essential basis for the delivery of services, involving recognition of diversity, varying needs and particular cultural preferences. Whilst commitment to culturally sensitive practice was widespread however, it had not always been realised in practice, as indicated for example by difficulties with the gender of medical staff, and lack of childcare provision for women seeking to study outside the home. Agreement on the need for services to be culturally sensitive also came from the asylum seekers themselves, who stressed, for example, the need for interpreting and support services which took account of different cultural understandings, as well as offering straight translation. Asylum seekers' responses dealt more widely with attitudes, and included accounts of experiences of racism. Many felt excluded from wider social relations, as well as, in some cases, from receipt of services, feeling that attitudes towards them were particularly negative. Where service providers spoke of the need to combat racism, they tended to locate this in wider communities rather than potentially within agencies, though a few were more explicit about the need to combat potential institutional racism.
276

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 21:05:05
305 Miss H, 05/02/2008 20:57:51

296 Why does what I say have no credibility?

87 - An Beal Bacht, 05/02/2008 19:24:02

What - no apology Miss H? Think of your credibility!

283 - An Beal Bacht, 05/02/2008 19:11:46

281 - Miss H, 05/02/2008 18:53:23;

Oh Miss H. - you cut me to the quick!

"... to educate people like you out of your Daily Mail-induced paranoid bigotry."

In my own defense I must point out that I haver never read the Daily Mail. Moreover, I don't believe any of my posts on this thread have indicated that I was either paranoid or bigoted. I ask you to show me anything that I have posted that would make you think that.

It is with great sadness that I must retract that part of my last post - viz:

"I believe Duncan and Miss H. are good people who valiantly posted their thoughts against a tide of ridicule and bile. I commend both of you."

I fear you must now be included in that tide!


277

Miss H,

05/02/2008 21:10:15
304 I am not making any argument about asylum seekers anywhere except Glasgow because that is where they are. That is who we are talking about. That is who this article is about. You have no basis whatsoever for saying that the majority of them are bogus. You really know nothing about it. Are you completely unaware that there is consensus on this issue in Glasgow - amongst MSPS from all parties and from the city council and the voluntary sector and the unions and the churches? Why do you think that is? No doubt you will say it is just political correctness gone mad or some such nonsense, when in reality it is that they know these people, they understand this situation and you do not.
278

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 21:14:36
Miss H at 305 says:

'As I said earlier if you are so confident that you represent the people on this issue then prove it.'

Miss H., I represent no one but myself. There may be those who agree with me just as there are those who, like yourself, disagree. I don't pretend to be the voice of the masses and never have.

You, however, have favoured the use of the Royal We -

281 - We are in favour of controlled immigration that is sufficient to fill unfilled vacancies, add value to the Scottish economy and make Scotland a more competitive place to do business.

Who are "We" Miss H?
279

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 21:22:41
Miss H. at 308 says:

"Are you completely unaware that there is consensus on this issue in Glasgow - amongst MSPS from all parties and from the city council and the voluntary sector and the unions and the churches?"

Miss H. are you aware that the groups you allude to patently do not reflect the views of the people of this country as witnessed on this thread? Your elitist sentiments are repugnant! We wee folks should just shut up and let our betters get on with the job? I think not!
280

Iain fae Elgin,

mid channel 05/02/2008 21:23:53
#292...Quoi?
281

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 21:23:59
310 - ?
282

kegler,

glasgow 05/02/2008 21:26:31
anthony 101 has got it right,we should be sharing all the asylum people in every area of scotland not just glasgow, why should everyone else miss out on this wonderfull right on middle class elite cause.
oh thats right they dont want them living en mass beside them....but they will defend them to the hilt while they are away from them in the glasgow housing schemes and local schools.
a local glasgow labour councilor who supports them said his area was not suitable for them....far better in sighthill or red road than his middle class luvvie area.
283

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 21:26:41
What was it Alex said? They don't like it up thum! Aye.
284

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 21:29:01
God - I thought Scots had better debating skills than this!
285

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 21:39:05
Before leaving this thread can I just say to Miss H. that it is sometimes profitable to concede a point as it strengthens your credibility as does apologizing when caught in a porkie! Good luck and God Bless!
286

Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 05/02/2008 21:39:46
Duncan of Edinburgh & Miss H,

I read you posts and you are both full of love for follow man/women. I get the impression that you are both self righteous students. There is no other explanation for such blind naivety. I too was once that sure about people now I am more cynical. We cannot afford to get it wrong.

Immigration/Asylum is like 'p*ss' in a swimming pool. Everyone knows it is there but it is all about the numbers. Too much is a problem and none at all is impossible to achieve.
287

John Blackley,

Winter Garden, FL 05/02/2008 21:59:51
Sorry to see An Beal Bacht leave the thread as I've found it quite educational.

I've learned that the United States is (solely?) responsible for there being asylum seekers in Scotland.

I've learned that there's no disagreement whatsoever on the subject of asylum seekers in Scotland.

And I've learned that all of the asylum seekers in Scotland are actually in Glasgow! Oh my!

I've also learned (actually I already knew this) that people with a passion for a cause tend to be blinkered and see everything associated with that cause as a binary issue - they're completely right and those who disagree are completely wrong.

Oh well, and the human race moves on - or doesn't.
288

Lady inwaiting,

Glenrothes 05/02/2008 22:07:19
NO NO NO NO WAY!!!!!!
289

Terrier2,

Edinburgh 05/02/2008 22:14:32
This problem is caused by the failure of government, and the immigration authorities to quickly process asylum seekers on arrival, and if necessary deport those who are not genuine there and then. Air travel will mean that some of them can come straight here, and they are not always poor and destitute, because very often they are the educated classes who speak out against the regimes in their country. However under International Law they must do so on arrival, and at the first opportunity, if they fail to do that then they should be treated as an illegal migrant and deported immediately. Its ridiculous that people are being first refused, and then later allowed in after they have spent years here. The problemn as ever is EU law - we cannot act effectively against failed asylum seekers since it would breach their 'human rights' - yet another reason to leave the EU.
290

The 'Menace',

Edinburgh, 05/02/2008 22:15:23
*74/120/122/151,,
good for you,n,I agree,first it was Polish,n,then Slovaks,n,now it'll soon be Rumania,Bulgarians,n,simply 'Who-ever' WANTS to enter this...So-Called...free country,over-run,I'm now convinced,as the So-called MP's,n,Ministers,can't even account for the numbers of immigrants,whov'e already come here,either by means unknown to anyone,than themselves! This country,Scotland,appears now,to be over-run by dissidents,of all kinds,look whats happened in the south,now,theyr'e flooding up here,I come over the Dean bridge,only today,and here were at least 12-15 ethnic persons crossing the bridge,laden with canvas bags,boxes,satchels,where they were going,I know not,..but,as above posts refer,the flood-gates are open!..No point,n,saying...wait,n,see!..God-Bye!!..Great Britain!!..
291

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 22:16:57
After fixing myself a wee bite I'm back John. I'm glad you found this thread educational whereas I myself merely found it mildly entertaining. I should be more "discriminating" in my choice of threads. It did have potential - though unrealized.

If I had taken the opposing view I would have argued my corner by introducing real people stories and appealing to the Scots natural humanity and sense of justice. I would have given a link to the "Those Left Behind" film. Aye - persuasion rather than criticism could've worked.

Hell - maybe I'll start arguing their case for them.
292

fritigern,

Inverness 05/02/2008 22:26:42
#322 Don't blame EU law, the problem is with the hereditary Oxbridge civil service's interpretation of EU law. Italy recently started deportation of Romanians, who belong to the EU, with no protest from the EU.

A few years ago the Netherlands tighten up on doling out taxpayers' money to immigrants. the Immigration rate plummeted immediately.

One lesson the 20th century taught us is that minorities who have lived in a country for hundreds, in not thousands, of years can be expelled if they become unwelcome to the majority community. Examples are the expulsion of all Germans form Czechoslovakia and Jews from several Moslem countries such as Iraq and Yemen.

To all those people who believe immigration is necessary in an ageing society, simply look at Japan and South Korea. Two advanced modern societies with low birthrates and scarcely a single immigrant, with the the consequent civil peace that brings.
293

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 22:43:11
325 - fritigern, Inverness 05/02/2008 22:26:42:

Good Post!
294

An Beal Bacht,

05/02/2008 22:48:11
Well -Ah'm aff tae the Theaytuh! Tech rehearsal tonight.
295

An Beal Bacht,

06/02/2008 00:09:18
CAMCORDER GUERILLAS

Those Left Behind

Watch!

http://www.camcorderguerillas.net/cg3/content/view/52/1/
296

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 06/02/2008 02:33:14
Great vid good to see some decent clear up of illegals..........
297

MichScot,

USA 06/02/2008 05:45:01
#89

Sharia?
298

MichScot,

USA 06/02/2008 05:49:50
3229
Why did they leave in the first place? HOPEFULLY, for a better life. HOPEFULLY, NOT to invite us to Islam.
299

Michael N,

Still out earning 06/02/2008 06:14:47
Duncan in Edinburgh, given that the no named lady was an asylum seeker at the time, what particular financial contributions would she have been making exactly? I don't disagree that in certain cases people should be granted asylum depending on circumstances. However, I do believe that we need to set some boundaries. The UK is in a mess and if we keep the floodgates open it will only be a matter of time 'til we are seeking asylum elshwere due to the country being financially crippled. If I want to donate to charity I will. I don't want the government doing it on my behalf.
300

Miss H,

06/02/2008 10:33:07
315 Alex Salmond's views on immigration and asylum are the polar opposite of yours - so don't presume to identify yourself with him or indeed with the SNP.
301

Gemini46,

glasgow 06/02/2008 10:46:38
I think this step of granting leave is quite positive. People who are here for the past five years or more do have a right of private life. People who are so negative about this report should understand that by granting leave to remain to so many families would bring a betterment to the scottish economy. Instead of paying asylum seekers from taxpayers' pocket they can earn and even pay taxes. Althoug government should not keep so much of back log. but if the authorities are doing something for the benefit of all then why we should slag them.

Everyone has a right to have a persoanl opinion.Just once try and live like an asylum seeker for a day and you will understand what they are going through.
-they are well qualified but can't work without stay
-some families are living on gift cards of a particular super market
-asylum seeking children can go to uni but are not getting any financial support
-every night they sleep with the hope of getting stay in the morning and praying that no one come to deport them.

these are only few things asylum seekers go through. we should help them to integrate in our society.
302

Camille,

Glasgow 06/02/2008 11:13:08
This is a really interesting discussion but I felt the need to clarify a few issues surrounding asylum...

1. One issue that has not been mentioned in this discussion is the poor quality of decision making which led to the need for the current case resolution programme in the first place. Amnesty has linked this to the use of out of date information about countries of origin; a lack of sensitivity towards and poor questioning of asylum seekers who may wish to speak about torture they have suffered; and Home Office staff deciding that a person's claim is not credible, even if there is no independent evidence to support this assertion. (http://www.icar.org.uk/?lid=4305)

2. There are practically no legal ways for someone seeking protection to enter Europe, so it is unhelpful to judge a person's need for protection on how they have arrived in the UK.

3. At present there are more than a million Iraqi refugees in neighbouring Syria, where the UN refugee agency has warned of an impending humanitarian crisis. In contrast, in the last quarter of 2007, 530 Iraqis claimed asylum in the UK.

4. 'Economic migrants' are those moving to another country to work or study; 'asylum seekers' are exercising their right to seek protection from persecution. Until their case has been heard, they are not 'bogus', 'illegal', or any of those other unhelpful terms we have heard so much of.

303

Allan(handofgod137),

06/02/2008 11:26:02
http://www.migrationwatchuk.com/outline_of_the_problem.asp

#331 This should help clear up any confusion as to why these economic migrants/bogus asylum seekers should be dealt with asap.
304

mondo,

Glasgow 06/02/2008 15:18:11
Allan the first line on that site says:

'Asylum claims have fallen sharply but immigration has trebled under the present government; it is now about fifteen times asylum.'

So you really are only betraying your ignorance when you refer to 'economic migrants/bogus asylum seekers', and it is this ignorance which is part of the problem - the type of people who are up in arms against asylum seekers often don't understand or appreciate the difference between an asylum seeker, a refugee, an immigrant, an economic migrant, or an illegal immigrant, or indeed that there is no such thing as an 'illegal asylum seeker' - in fact that term was actually banned by the NUJ many years ago.

I can understand people having an issue with the number of immigrants (whilst I totally disagree myself - the NHS for example have made clear that they couldn't cope without the large immigrant workforce) but that is a whole different issue. The number of ASYLUM SEEKERS we recieve is quite literally a trickle and people should stop placing the blame for society's ills at their door
305

mondo,

Glasgow 06/02/2008 15:26:01
Sorry - just another point from that migrationwatch site. In trying to emphasise the scale of the problem they say:

'Immigration is now on an unprecedented scale. The Asians from East Africa who arrived in the mid 1970s amounted to 27,000. We are now taking more than 10 times that number every year.'

So to the uncritical eye, this makes it sound like we are taking ten times more immmigrants than we were in the mid 1970s. But they reference the number of ASIANS from EAST AFRICA??? I'm sure the number of Asians who came here from Asia was considerably higher!

This is an excellent example of how misinformation is spread by these kind of organisations to distort public opinion. Once people start to look at the real picture, rather than spouting right wing media-based propaganda, then we can start to seperate the issues of asylum and immigration and maybe even have a sensible debate about it.
306

Allan(handofgod137),

06/02/2008 16:03:29
339 Mondo, you're missing the point,the majority of "asylum" seekers are actually economic migrants and illegal immigrants who's claim for "asylum" only surfaces when they get caught. The bottom line is, if they don't come here DIRECTLY from their country of origion, then under the rules they should have applied for asylum in the first safe country they reached.
307

An Beal Bacht,

06/02/2008 16:13:44
335 - Miss H. you have done your cause no favours on this thread. You seem incapable of arguing your case without resorting to insults and vilification. This topic should not be put beyond discussion by such tactics. To smear folks who do not agree with your point of view as xenophobes, idiots, bigots, and scum as you and others in your camp did on this thread is unacceptable.

You seem to find strength in the belief that your views are representative of the SNP. Certainly the policy of that party is to welcome more immigrants to Scotland and to treat asylum seekers with more haste and dignity. While the latter is to be commended the former is still up for debate. The SNP is a broad church Miss H. and you are not an exemplar of the average member.

Finally you defy me to identify myself with Alex Salmond or the SNP. Well I am certainly no Alex Salmond - the best FM Scotland has ever had - but the last time I checked my membership card it was current.
308

An Beal Bacht,

06/02/2008 16:41:14
600,000 - 600,000 - 600,000 - 600,000 - 600,000 - 600,000

SIX HUNDRED THOUSAND!

Immigrants per Year

By 2018 that will be 6 million
By 2028 that will be 12 million!
By 2048 that will be 24 million!

309

mondo,

Glasgow 06/02/2008 17:56:53
But this article is about asylum. I see you are happy to continue to muddy the waters though. And though you appear to have a fairly open mind, posts such as this only serve to fan the fires of ignorance and hatred.

Is there any need to type the number 6 times? And then to type it after that? In CAPITALS?

Who are you pandering to with this?
310

An Beal Bacht,

06/02/2008 18:14:27
334 - Yes it is necessary because there is no honesty in this debate. You are one of the folks I am "pandering" to as you, like many others, don't seem to have a clue about the actual numbers involved. Tell me, how does reporting the facts flame the fires of ignorance? As to the topic of the article - I see no difference between asylum seekers and economic migrants in the UK! Check my post at 13.
311

mondo,

Glasgow 06/02/2008 19:01:12
OK if you are pandering to the likes of me, let me save your fingers some extra work - typing '600,000' will suffice. Typing it more times than this will only wear down your finger prints unduly, and it also makes you look like a drama queen.

It flames the fires of ignorance because in this debate on asylum, many people may think there are 600,000 asylum seekers entering the UK each year. This is not true, regardless of your interpretation of what an asylum seeker is. Only those with extreme right wing views would accept that an asylum seeker is the same as an economic migrant.

By your logiv, all the Eastern Europeans who come here when their countries join the EU would be classed as asylum seekers, but they are clearly not coming here to seek asylum. If you think this through with a calm mind you will see that I am right.

Asylum seeker does not equal economic migrant.
Economic migrant does not equal asylum seeker.
312

An Beal Bacht,

06/02/2008 19:36:09
I accept your argument that an economic migrant does not equal an asylum seeker. However, to be considered an asylum seeker in Scotland the person would have to have came directly on a flight from the country they were fleeing. In the majority of cases I doubt if this is true.

Having said that, I think it is appalling the way these families have been treated and I'm all for Scotland giving them a break. I fell no animosity towards these people but am furious with a system that allows families to be in limbo for years after their application has been denied. I despise a system that has dawn raids to arrest children and their families and incarcerate them for just wanting a decent life.

I hope that Scotland can have power over immigration and asylum devolved for I'm sure we could do a much better and more humane job of it than Westminster. Having said all that, I still believe we need to have an open and honest debate on the subject. Simply implementing policies that don't have the support of the people is not healthy in a democracy just as vilifying and castigating opponents does not lead to openness and respect.

Finally, - No! - EU citizens are neither immigrants nor asylum seekers.


313

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 06/02/2008 22:30:30
Lets face it, Scotland is still to this day partitioned by religous bigotry, albeit it mainly in the central west area of our country. If to date we have failed to sort this one out then in truth we can't claim anything yet. And what does our "great leader" the First Minister go and do - he plays a card designed mainly to endear himself to a section of our community who are happy to continue playing the segregation card in our schools. Understanding each other better is not achieved by this and many parts of Scotland in the east and north of our relatively small country can show good long term examples of how the rest of the people should accept and behave toward each other in single community schools. Mr Salmond has represented such an area for almost 20 years so should know better - but thats not the aim of this particular little game he palys with peoples prejudices. He is a twister for sure.
314

Worker 72hrs a wk,

Edinburgh 06/02/2008 23:34:30
I am single and as you can see i work long hours . what i will say is that i feel very let down by my country ,i am so angry as i work with a collegue who is from hungry , he has only been in uk for 1 year but he has a 3yr old boy and wife , he is moaning that he cant afford anything but between him and his wife they earn £2500 a mnth and they have just been awarded £150.00 a month to put toward the child`s day care , and £75.00 a month towards there private accommadation (which he says that he wants for his child as it has a garden ) i only wished i could have a garden instead of a window box . I really detest what has happened to uk as a whole . can someone please please tell me how people like myself an thousands like me have to work long hrs to make a decent living when the hungarian i work with gets all these benefits when he has only been in the uk for 1yr .
i could voice a lot more but wont bore anyone with it, the purpose of this is NO I DON`T AGREE WITH THE ASYLUM PEOPLE THEY SHOULDN`T BE HERE IF THEY WERE REJECTED TO START WITH .
315

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 07/02/2008 00:13:20
Enoch was a man before his time and sadly will be proven to have been understated ............
316

mondo,

Glasgow 07/02/2008 00:55:45
Worker 72 hours a week - your post refers entirely to a co-worker from Hungary (ie not an asylum seeker) but then ends stating that 'asylum people shouldn't be here if they were rejected to start with' - the 2 issues are unconnected!!! I HATE the way people keep doping this. For a start asylum seekers are, by law, prohibited from working.

Now, the reason a lot of people have been allowed to stay who were previously refused is because our Home Office is 'not fit for purpose' ie they make an awful lot of cockups. For example, if you end up here from say Zimbabwe, you are given a very limited amount of times to get proof sent over from Zimbabwe eg to prove what job you did there and why you were at risk. A lot of time people's documents don't arrive in time and so they're claim is refused (anyone who has had dealings with eg council tax or housing benefit will know how hard it can be dealing with faceless government beaurocracy). But the asylum seeker's lawyer will invariably contest this decision, so starting the appeal process, and when the Home Office has made a mistake, the asylum seeker is then allowed to stay.

It is not as simple as saying 'if they are refused first time they should go' - the Home Office is infamous for its mistakes at the minute.

Also if you work 72 hours a week then you will be earning at least 20k - I don't see why you begrudge your co-worker and his family the subsistence they get. In all walks of life there will be people getting a little more than us and people getting a little less than us - it is pointless to worry about these things. Just enjoy your own life and let them enjoy theirs. Bitterness is debilitating
317

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 07/02/2008 03:13:06
A single penny spent on anything other than a one way out travel ticket on an asylum seeker who has been refused asylum is an abomination and criminal waste of tax payers money.
318

mondo,

Glasgow 07/02/2008 17:17:04
I am a taxpayer and I don't think it is a waste at all. And neither do YOUR government. I do think spending £20-80 billion on new nuclear weapons is a waste however. I also think spending countless billions fighting in Iraq is also a waste (such irony that people like yourself then moan when Iraqis turn up here seeking asylum eh? Easier not to think it through and just say 'get 'em out' I guess...).

I assume you people moan in equal proportion about the Iraq war? Or do you feel you personally have benefitted from that - is that a good use of your taxes?
319

\seasider,

Saltcoats 07/02/2008 18:24:33

Why do these Iraqi's land here? Britain is not the first safe 'asylum'stop after Iraq unless of course this is where they prefer to buy the ticket to. I would much rather spend the money to have the safety of Trident or it's successor. Nobody benefits from war but the alternative is to let dictatorships run unchecked until they have the power and means to attack you. By the way I to am a taxpayer.
320

mondo,

Glasgow 07/02/2008 18:57:42
The Iraqis that land here are a fraction of a percent of those that actually flee Iraq. And have you actually thought about how an Iraqi would get to the nearest safe country?

Let's look at Basra - the two nearest borders are Kuwait and Iran. Now obviously they are unlikely to be seen as safe havens. So unless the Saudis take them all, the nearest border is that of Syria, over 400km away. However there is an airport in Basra, so is it any wonder people sometimes choose to flea by plane if they can. And considering a lot of Iraqis will only speak their own languiage, plus some English, is it any wonder that some arrive in Britain?

Also the north of Irag is notoriously terretorial and would be extremely dangerous to try and escape through, thus pretty much writing off Turkey as an escape route.

Basically, it is not as easy as going to 'the nearest safe country' - 'nearest safe country' should perhaps be interpreted as 'nearest reachable safe country'.
321

\seasider,

Saltcoats 07/02/2008 19:44:04
As we were/are at war with that country why are we taking Iraqi's in, I do not remember taking in Germans during or shortly after the 1939/45 war.Thank goodness we dont get them all, there would be no room for us. As to the geographic problems they face, Syria sounds a better bet if Saudia Arabia is full. Far fewer language or religious problems for them. For the price of the air fare to Britain I am sure they could get to either of the countries mentioned. But then again perhaps not the same attractions eh?
322

mondo,

Glasgow 07/02/2008 22:29:18
Oh great - another numpty who is seemingly unable to think about their own rhetoric. I guess it's History for Numpties then:

The Germans were the aggressor in WW2 - they were trying to take over Europe and Hitler had a reasonably popular mandate. We were bombing Germany and they were bombing us; we were at war with each other.

We were the aggressors in the Iraq war, and we ostensibly went to war to 'liberate the Iraqi people from the tyranny of Saddam Hussein'. Also we are not at war with Iraq - that's why we are trying to help them establish a government and a police force you see?

Can you not see how they are two entirely different scenarios? Idiotic, ill-thought out rhetoric from a right winger eh? Who'd have thought it...
323

Frodo the Scot,

Outside peeking in 24/02/2008 17:58:52
Nice going P.C. and tolerance groups before to long
there will NO longer be Heather,Burns, Tartan and God
your heading for bhurka's allah and sharia law. Well done

 

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