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Anger at 'soft' jail terms for serious attacks

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Published Date: 04 July 2009
THE Scottish Government has been accused of presiding over a "soft touch" justice system after it emerged that thugs convicted of attempted murder and serious assault had been given prison sentences of less than six months.
New statistics – released under Freedom of Information rules – reveal that since 2003-4, 335 of those found guilty of serious assault were given sentences of less than 182 days. A further three people convicted of attempted murder were also given terms of less than six months.

The data for the most recent year, 2007-8, show 63 people guilty of serious assault were given sentences of six months or less. This represents one in 12 of all those convicted of this offence.

Of the 351 convicted of robbery across Scotland in 2007-8, about a quarter – 85 – were jailed for six months or less, while a fifth of those convicted of crimes of indecency were were given terms of less than six months.

The leniency of the punishments for such serious offences was attacked by opposition politicians, who claimed it made a mockery of SNP plans to replace all jail terms of six months or less with community-based sentences.

Critics said the trend for criminals to spend less time in jail would weaken public faith in the credibility of the justice system.

Even though the figures were similar under Labour, the party's justice spokesman, Paul Martin, said: "These figures are a disgrace and I cannot see how (justice secretary] Kenny MacAskill can defend them and the SNP policy to scrap six-month sentences.

"Communities across Scotland deserve protection and respite from such violent offenders. Labour would hold firm to such individuals remaining in prison, and they deserve longer sentences."

He went on: "It also backs up Labour's commitment to opposing Kenny MacAskill's plans to scrap six-month sentences when such serious offenders are being treated so leniently.

"This is yet more evidence of soft-touch Scotland."

The justice secretary has been under fire for his plans to phase out jail sentences of six months or less for minor criminals, a measure designed to ease pressure on Scotland's jails.

As a part of his controversial Criminal Justice and Licensing Bill, Mr MacAskill wants to introduce "community payback sentences", which will see minor criminals do unpaid work under supervision, seek help for drink or drug problems, or take part in programmes to address their behaviour.

But the fact those responsible for far more serious crimes are already escaping lengthy prison sentences shocked Mr MacAskill's political rivals.

The situation was described as "farcical" by Bill Aitken, the Conservatives' justice spokesman.

He said: "Even on the basis of their own figures, the Scottish Government plans to scrap six-month sentences are shown to be a dangerous nonsense.

"Those who find themselves convicted of a serious assault, sometimes with a sexual aspect to it, must expect long custodial sentences.

"If the SNP passes its law to scrap sentences of six months or less, then Scotland will become a much more dangerous place.

"The Scottish Government comes out with the old canard that people aren't being properly punished because they spend only a couple of weeks in jail. But this is because Kenny MacAskill's policy is to let so many of them out after just serving a quarter of their sentence.

"This means that six months in many cases means six weeks. The situation is farcical."

The new figures piled more pressure on the justice secretary, who is being portrayed by opponents as a lame-duck minister. His decision to go to Burns Supper in Canada rather than attend a knife-crime summit in Holyrood earlier this year led to an outcry.

And a number of high-profile incidents of dangerous criminals absconding from Castle Huntly open jail in Perthshire raised more questions about Mr MacAskill's handling of the justice portfolio.

The 2007-8 figures showed that 39 sex offenders were sentenced to six months or less. Of those, ten were convicted of indecent assault and 11 for "lewd and indecent" behaviour.

A total of 625 house-breakers got six months or less, as did 19 fire-raisers, 648 people found guilty of handling an offensive weapon and 1,815 who had committed common assault.

The number of people receiving sentences of six months or less were similar to the previous couple of years – for example, in 2006-7, there were 72 people convicted of serious assault let out within six months against 63 in 2005-6.

David Sinclair, of Victim Support Scotland, said: "We would very much like to see the stories behind these statistics. We have always taken the view that prison is the place for people who commit serious offences.

"We would like to know what types of robberies are being committed by those who were given six-month sentences and exactly what types of offences are being committed.

"You have to know the circumstances of each particular case before coming to a judgment," Mr Sinclair added.

"But if you believe in the criminal justice system, you hope that the courts are taking into account all factors, including the views of the victims of the crime. There appears to be little variation in the figures over the years. Some years they are slightly down and other years they are slightly up."

Mr Sinclair went on: "We recognise that there is a period of change at the moment. Everyone is waiting to see what the results of these changes will be when they are rolled out.

"We have said that we will co-operate with the changes, because we don't take the Luddite view that we must build more prisons to lock more people up. Locking people up for minor crimes is not the answer."

A Scottish Government spokeswoman said: "These statistics show that the vast majority of those convicted of serious crimes are sent to jail for longer than six months.

"It is untrue to say sentences of six months or less are being abolished – we want to introduce a presumption against those short sentences and sheriffs will always make the final decision based on all the information before them.

"While prison will always remain the right place for serious and dangerous offenders, this shows that short sentences for low-level offenders do nothing to stop reoffending – three-quarters of those sentenced to short-term sentences of six months or less reoffend within two years, while 42 per cent of those sentenced to community service have a clean record after that time."

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  • Last Updated: 04 July 2009 12:55 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish prisons
 
1

Fifi la Bonbon,

04/07/2009 00:49:38
This is terrible. People who go to jail should not go to jail for less than six months, because they won't be rehabilitated.

You can only have the propensity to attempt to murder and serously assault people rehabilitated out of you if you go to jail for over six months so rehabilitation can work. That is what I understand Kenny McAskill believes.

If the judiciary believes that these malefactors merit incarceration for less than six months, it seems that their rehabilitation would be better served if they took part in commmunity payback schemes of 240 hours, or even more, wearing reflective jackets.

Complete bollix, but this is penal policy in Scotland under Kenny McAskill.


Right. What would penal policy in Scotland be like under Fifi la Bonbon?

If someone tries to murder me or anyone else, I want them locked up. For a very long time. Eating bread and water, and picking oakum. I don't want them getting out of jail till they are old. I don't want them rehablitated, just punshed. I want certainty that they will be caught and certainty that they will suffer, and I want all the other attempted murderers out there to know that if they attempt to murder me or anyone else they will be hunted down and punished in jail for a very long time.

Jack Straw has the right idea with Ronnie Biggs.
2

Joe Plaice,

the Nutmeg of Consolation 04/07/2009 01:19:36
Won't happen Fifi, not with Common Purpose running things. Remember, their purpose is to destabilise our society to the point of anarchy and then rebuild it in their image. Not an image you or I would like. DOn't just ignore this, do some research and see what we are up against.
3

Iainbroch,

04/07/2009 01:35:40
A highly misleading article to summarise the usual Hootsman content.

Made more misleading by the fact that Blair and Broon and Liebore govts and all those that have served the Liebore Party in the last decade or so are all war criminal mass murderers and we have not locked them up.
4

Edward,

04/07/2009 01:36:37
Slow news day obviously
Any scrap of tat will be jumped on by this rag to attack the SNP, even if the problem stems from before 2007!
5

BROONISDOOMED,

PITS OF HELL 04/07/2009 01:41:23
if kenny gave lags life without parole,the beard and sandal brigade,who vote labour or fib dem would bleat "human rights",well tough,you do the crime ,you will damn well do the time,and hand wringing middle class numpties can go and raffle themselves
PC brigade are you proud ,that through your sticking yer neb in have made society like it is today?,or are you just trying to impliment a social inclusion prog you saw demonstrated on open university aka 1970s
hard labour ,no more cushy cells and perks
6

Fifi la Bonbon,

04/07/2009 02:19:47
I'm not in the the beard and sandal brigade (why are people who believe in human rights and not being evil to one's fellow person always described by the hard of thinking as being formed in brigades?) and I don't think it's a breach of the human rights of murderers and those who attempt to murder to lock them up for a very long time with the sole intent to punish and no desire to "rehabilitate".

Nor do I think, unlike our conspiracy obsessed chum at #2, that Common Purpose is behind Kenny McAskill's misguided attempt to purge the sins of the bad men who want to do us harm. He doesn't need a management development programme to be wrong - he has been able to think this up all by himself. The troof is out there.

And I don't see any necessary connection between the deluded efforts of the Nationalist Party to break up the United Kingdom into bits and the stupid and dangerous policy of telling knifemen and axemen and general hoodlums that "we understand, and we care, so please stop hurting people." So this isn't an attack on the Nationalist Party. I'd be just as critical of Labour if they tried the same stupid policy as the Nationalist Party.

I'm just saying that current penal policy in Scotland is wrong headed and immoral and the sooner we re-emphasise the human rights of non-criminals, and go back to catching criminals and locking up and punishing them so severely that they either get the message or stay locked up forever, the better.
7

Fitba Krazy,

04/07/2009 02:41:43
Let's look a bit closer at these statistics.

Let's include 2003-4 just to be on the safe side.

Since 2003-4 335 people have been allegedly given short sentences for serious crimes.

In 2007-8 63 were given short sentences for serious crimes.

That leaves 272 for 2006-7, 2005-6, 2004-5 and 2003-4

That is 4 years divided into 272 = 68 per year including 2003-4.

The SNP only became the Scottish Gov. in May 2007 therefore the highest figures were when Labour were running the Scottish Gov. or Administration as they preferred to call it.

It seems to me Labour's attack on the SNP is ill-founded. What a surprise.

8

redcliffe62,

04/07/2009 03:06:10
it will take more than a couple of years to change what is clearly a very poor system whereby career criminals seem to get off very lightly, even where violence is involved.
all the parties need to hold their heads in shame. none of them are doing what the public wants.
we may not like some of the crazy sentences in saudi arabia, but i can assure you that you can walk down the road at 2 in the morning with no fear of being mugged.
i went swimming in romania in 87 in the days of ciaocescu (i stayed at the embassy so not going as a "tourist" per se,)and was told i could leave my wallet and passport on the beach with no-one even thinking of taking it. with one in ten people being secret police the punishment would have fitted the crime. and i appreciated that when i was there.
i heard the classic one for pilferage was after prison to be made a roadsweeper, for life, and there were no plastic bags in 35 degree c summers with cholera not unknown. no rehabilitation needed, you would not risk it a first time let alone a second time!
9

dunedin bully wee 1877,

04/07/2009 05:39:55
It rather looks as if today is the Hootsmon’s official “Let’s attack Kenny MacAskill Day”.

What has Kenny done to upset the editor to warrant the following three articles being run on the same day?

“ Anger at 'soft' jail terms for serious attacks”

“MacAskill's move to tie sheriff's hands is nothing to do with justice” .

“Justice secretary has an uphill struggle over short sentences”
10

,

04/07/2009 06:12:03
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11

Herry Oaksters,

04/07/2009 06:18:44
Yaaaawwwwnnnn.
12

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04/07/2009 06:47:22
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13

Herry Oaksters,

04/07/2009 07:06:34
12.More drivel.

Yaaaawwwwnnnn.Yaaaawwwwnnnn.

14

Colkitto,

River Clyde 04/07/2009 07:10:31
I find it quite amazing that the anti-SNP/Salmond/nationalist stories by the Scotsman and the rest of the unionist press here in Scotland hasn't dented the popularity of the SNP at all.
The sustained attack on the SNP, which seems to have gone on for years by the unionist press, just has not resonated with the public to any large extent.
15

Herry Oaksters,

04/07/2009 07:11:24


You should be sorry suzanne.

http://tinyurl.com/mgzck6.
16

,

04/07/2009 07:15:07
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04/07/2009 07:37:58
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18

McNasty,

Edinburgh 04/07/2009 07:45:21
Labour promised to be tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime.

On the latter they have done little or nothing. It is hardly surprising then we still have crime.

19

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04/07/2009 08:07:53
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Marian,

04/07/2009 08:07:56
Once again we have New Labour intent on never letting the facts get in the way of a good story (or smear in this case).

If you take the trouble to actually read the article details you will find that the facts in this case are that the statistics are for the years prior to the SNP becoming the governing party in Scotland when Scotland was "governed" (or most accurately mis-governed) by New Labour and their Lib Dem chums.

A more adult and responsible approach would have been to wait until the 2008-09 statistics came out before trying to come to any judgement about the SNP's performance on this issue.
21

,

04/07/2009 08:15:08
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22

Joe Plaice,

the Nutmeg of Consolation 04/07/2009 08:24:30
#22 FFS Wufus, shut the F@rk up!
23

Finnzz,

04/07/2009 08:24:32
#21 You'll be waiting a long long time to get an adult approach out of the Scotsman when it comes to governmental stories.

It tries to pander to the typical Labour voter who we all know to have the attention span of a grapefruit.

So once more we are afflicted with a headline purporting to be the result of SNP mismanagement when all it does is confirm the incompetance of the previous administration.
24

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 04/07/2009 08:27:27
In Scotland the judiciary decide on the sentence, and if it is imprisonment, the duration as well.
The government can try and ensure that there is like for like sentencing over all of Scotland, but the power of sentence in every case remains with the judge or sheriff, who has heard all the details of the case.
25

,

04/07/2009 08:27:52
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26

qohldr,

04/07/2009 08:38:09
Tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime, It never happened.
Labour failed the electorate on crime, they actually became less stringent when tackling the causes and dealing with crimes and the criminals.
After devolution Scottish Labour continued with the same softly softly touch as New Labour.
Human rights is not known as the criminals charter for nothing and human rights is fully endorsed by both Labour and the SNP in its entirety.
Trying to make this a Labour v SNP thing is poppycock they both have similar ideals on crime it is just that one wants to implement them in a Scotland that is independent and the other as part of the union.
#8 says it will take more that s few years to change the system, "Face it" it is never going to happen.
Lets not forget Labour support in Scotland is falling while the SNP support is rising, speaks for itself really it is the same people voting for a different party that intends to continue being soft on crime and putting criminals rights above those of their victims and the public in general.
27

BROONISDOOMED,

PITS OF HELL 04/07/2009 08:40:48
#6 are you a brown trout,as you fell hook line and sinker at my little wind up lol
my how they come out and spout off
should be taken very much tongue in cheek
28

,

04/07/2009 08:44:42
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04/07/2009 08:46:19
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Lee John,

04/07/2009 08:48:27
Meanwhile, dozens of prisoners escape from English open prisons.
31

qohldr,

04/07/2009 09:04:11
#31
There are probably prisoners escaping from jails in Wales and NI as well.
What has that or your comment to do with the sentencing of prisoners in Scotland and how Labour allowed it to happen or the SNP continued the trend and intends to make it more widespread.
32

Marga,

Edinburgh 04/07/2009 09:08:26
"Even though the figures were similar under Labour,..."
33

DialMforMurdoX,

04/07/2009 09:12:03
Fifi le Bonbon, tell us more about this 'Common Purpose' that you appear to know a lot about?
34

westcider,

Isle of Lewis 04/07/2009 09:20:09
What the justice system requires is a fresh way of dealing with those who have previous form and come back into prison. Their "human rights" have to be curtailed to allow a strict regime to be imposed, perhaps voluntarily, and from a basic mattress and blanket, in an otherwise empty cell, everything else must be earned by good discipline, exercise, and hard work, just as I remember my initial training in the army. No-one got hurt and a work ethic and self discipline was established which supported that person for the rest of their life.
35

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04/07/2009 10:02:17
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36

Fifi la Bonbon,

04/07/2009 10:02:42
#35 - it's a vast global conspiracy to extract the precious bodily fluids of conspiraloons like #2. The malevolent forces behind this plot are so powerful that all criticism is quickly suppressed. There is virtually nothing on the internet explaining the mind boggling reach and scope of its tentacles, so don't bother googling it - you will find nothing.
37

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04/07/2009 10:04:54
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38

TWC,

exLabour 04/07/2009 10:07:32
39 Sorry Suzanne,

It's up to the Judges to sentence people. I wish the judges could have wee go at the Labour MPs who are at the fiddle.
39

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04/07/2009 10:15:09
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40

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04/07/2009 10:16:13
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41

Fifi la Bonbon,

04/07/2009 10:18:25
Can I ask, are people who defend this awful policy of letting criminals off doing so because it's Nationalist Party policy, or because they genuinely think it's a good thing?

I am criticising it not because it's Nationalist Party policy but because I genuinely believe that violent criminals and the like need to be severely punished and locked up for a long time.

Right now, people minded to use violence in daily life can make the calculation - "That guy needs a doin'. He's a poof, he's wan a themmuns, he's just walkin' down the street. I want to kill him so I do. Well I might get caught. But if I get caught what is going to happen? I might only get the jail for a few months. I might even get off with it and just end up doin' some old dear's hoose for a few weeks. And anyway they do nothin' if I don't turn up. Where's ma chib?"

What we need is system where people say to themselves - "That guy needs a doin'. He's a poof, he's wan a themmuns, he's just walkin' down the street. I want to kill him so I do. Well I might get caught. But if I get caught what is going to happen? I'm going to end up in the jail, no question. For years and years. It's harsh in there, too. Nae telly, nae weed or pills. Whatever happened to human rights? Does yer heid in. It's no' like the old days when thae Nationalists were in, ye could dae anythin', nae bother. Its no ' worth it."

QED.
42

DialMforMurdoX,

04/07/2009 10:19:43
#38 Fifi, I'm sensing you have some kind of personal involvement here. Obviously I could be wrong...but please, if you're involved, tell us what Common Purpose really is?

cheers
43

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/07/2009 10:25:49
Kenny Macaskill is about the best Justice Minister we've had or could have. In common with Henry McLeish who has done a lot of work on this, he understands that jail should only be for bad and dangerous people. If, like Fifi la bon bon, you view incarceration as a punishment and only a punishment, you prove that you haven't evolved along with the rest of us, and are still stuck in a time warp, and in a time when life was actually far more dangerous for the average citizen than it is now.

Jail should be for those people who are dangerous. And if they continue to be dangerous they shouldn't be let out. But the jails in this country are full of people who pose no risk, they have been stuck in jail largely because society in the shape of the law doesn't know what else to do with them.

Whilst prison officers are left baby-sitting the mentally ill, the addicted, the desperate and the poor, they are unable to rehabilitate those prisoners who should actually be there.

Macaskill has got the right idea, and he and McLeish can back up their arguments with researched evidence and facts, but sadly I don't think he will be in the position for long enough to actually see his policies made practise by the Judiciary. That will be a pity, and will leave us all with a more dangerous society to live in.

44

TWC,

exLabour 04/07/2009 10:29:32
Obs,

These are just the moans of Labour poodles.

They are so ineffective that they have nothing to offer but complaints. It really is sad but if you watch TV you'll see it doesn't matter what the topic is it is a complaint about SNP even when it is at Westminster. Where are all the real Labour politicians???
45

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/07/2009 10:37:24
48 I know, the reaction here is like Pavlov's dog. Anyone says Macaskill and they sit up and bark. But he wants to revolutionise penal policy and he is right. It annoys me that his scalp may be taken for purely party political reasons.
46

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04/07/2009 10:38:15
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47

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/07/2009 10:39:27
''Where are all the real Labour politicians???''

They're aw deid.
48

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04/07/2009 10:40:06
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TWC,

exLabour 04/07/2009 10:40:53
52 Sorry Suzanne,

Labour party song should have some reference to sleaze and Lying in the words
50

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04/07/2009 10:41:33
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04/07/2009 10:42:56
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52

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/07/2009 10:43:52
56 Ask an interesting question and you may get a reply. As it is you just seem to be a thread spammer.
53

Russell M,

Stirling 04/07/2009 10:46:24
It started over a century ago to protect the government against revolution. And has been sloppily careening toward the left wing lunacy of Health and Safety for criminals we have now.

Are you willing to shake off generations of propaganda by the mainstream media and read the whole article on why this occurred? Google "okslip" and read ALL THE WAY DOWN THE SLIPPERY SLOPE by Olson & Kopel.

The utopian dream that ordinary citizens should not have to deal with the messy business of stopping criminal behaviour plays into the hands of the oligarchy. The vast majority of us have never had enough property worth defending by violent means, but why we surrender our lives so easily, Reginald Baker, is a mystery.
54

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04/07/2009 10:50:52
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Observer,,

Glasgow 04/07/2009 10:52:56
60 This is a thread about penal policy. Do you know anything about it ? All ears.
56

Fifi la Bonbon,

04/07/2009 10:59:14
#46 - "If, like Fifi la bon bon, you view incarceration as a punishment and only a punishment, you prove that you haven't evolved along with the rest of us, and are still stuck in a time warp, and in a time when life was actually far more dangerous for the average citizen than it is now."


That sounds awfully like a fashion argument... that only antediluvian troglodytes disagree with Kenny McAskill and Henry McLeish and if you don't want to be thought of as square and old fashioned you'd better get on with the programme. Daddio.

Well, so be it. I think that the capacity for reflection amongst the kind of people who are prepared to use violence in daily life is limited. If they think it is possible that they will fall into the hands of people who are prepared to "treat" them, they will be more tempted to do it, than if they are aware that they will be harshly treated and they see it happening to people already in the system.

Criminally minded people are the ultimate empiricists. They see for themselves that the government is averse to punishment. It wants to "rehabilitate" them. Government is queasy about locking people up and believes that this happens to too many people. It sees people who use violence and commit crime as victims who need to be treated.

Criminals are also well aware that "community punishments" are weak and that in many cases those responsible for them are not serious about dealing with defaulters. What is going to happen to people who don't turn up or who take the pis s? Send them to jail? Hardly!

57

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04/07/2009 10:59:21
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58

Sgian Achlais,

04/07/2009 11:06:13
David Sinclair, of Victim Support Scotland, said: "We would very much like to see the stories behind these statistics. We have always taken the view that prison is the place for people who commit serious offences.

"We would like to know what types of robberies are being committed by those who were given six-month sentences and exactly what types of offences are being committed.

"You have to know the circumstances of each particular case before coming to a judgment," Mr Sinclair added.


========================================

Pretty much rubbishes the entire article.

For example serious assault charges are often for alcohol fuelled fights were people have no previous history of criminal behaviour and get attacked by some ned at a taxi rank or in the street and they give said ned a sound thrashing.

In my youth working in pubs I witnessed many an innocent person defending himself successfully only to be charged by the police when they arrived.

The police note the actions and press the charges then the judges decide on the blame and level of punishment.

They have the facts we have been presented with none by the Scotsman and yet they are public record and easily attained. I wonder why we are not getting any examples.

Labour have no shame. Once again the figures are improvements on theirs, the new system has not been worked through the system yet.

Instead we get more smears on Kenny and again mentioning of him going to Canada.


Knife crime is not a Scottish problem. It is a Glasgow problem with approximately 50% of stabbing recorded in Glasgow and a high proportion of the remainder in the surrounding areas of the central belt.

If I recall correctly Glasgow is the murder capital of Europe. Yet Labour have controlled this area for half a century.
59

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/07/2009 11:14:51
62 What planet are you posting from fifi ? You have completely ignored what I said.

63 ''If I recall correctly Glasgow is the murder capital of Europe'' yes it is. And I can assure you it is entirely cultural and could be corrected. But we don't do that because no-one actually acts upon the analysis of why various crimes are actually committed. Too busy chasing the Daily Mail vote.
60

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04/07/2009 11:15:37
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Observer,,

Glasgow 04/07/2009 11:17:49
66 Doesn't he ? Maybe it is Western Europe.
62

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04/07/2009 11:20:25
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04/07/2009 11:22:05
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Observer,,

Glasgow 04/07/2009 11:23:48
69 You're the one who challenged the statement - you chare it.
65

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/07/2009 11:27:17
This government fails dismally in one of its basic duties. Soft on crime and and Not Protecting.
66

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04/07/2009 11:28:25
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04/07/2009 11:29:37
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Observer,,

Glasgow 04/07/2009 11:29:51
72 I don't think it's every year. As I recall one year it was Limerick. But we held the title once as murder capital of Europe.
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Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/07/2009 11:30:46
#43 Fifi la Bon Bon

Didn't think I'd ever say this but good post. Spot on.
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Fifi la Bonbon,

04/07/2009 11:31:43
#65 - you said the thing I quoted you as saying and I said what I thought about the thing I quoted you as saying.

For obvious reasons I decline to provide my location.
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04/07/2009 11:32:15
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Observer,,

Glasgow 04/07/2009 11:34:30
75 You are contradicting previous posts Draco are you not ? As I recall you were against the hate crimes bill. Fifi is painting a scenario where someone gets a doing just because they are gay, under the SNP policy that would be considered an aggravated offence and would almost certainly warrant a custodial.

Anyway I think that's entirely the sort of perpetrator who should be jailed.
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04/07/2009 11:34:31
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Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/07/2009 11:34:46
#65 Observer

A lot of people commit a lot of crime because it's an economically viable way of making a living. So much easier than working and contributing.
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Sgian Achlais,

04/07/2009 11:35:51
#69 SS

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article5733964.ece
February 15, 2009
"The rise in Scotland was the sixth biggest in the world, according to the UN survey of 79 nations, behind Bahrain (73%), Jordan (45%), Tajikistan (43%), Armenia (37%) and Mauritius (34%).

Most of the 109 homicides were recorded in the west of Scotland, which has a long history of gang-related knife crime. Glasgow emerged as the most violent city in western Europe with a murder rate of 5 deaths per 100,000, up from 4.49 the previous year.

Hebron, the largest city in the occupied Palestinian territory, reported a homicide rate of 3.24 in 2005, the most recent year for which figures are available.

The murder rate in Glasgow was also well above those in Minsk, the capital of Belarus (3.8) and Istanbul (4.8%).

===============================

You are correct the term they are using is Western Europe and I do not believe the figures of shaky.
76

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/07/2009 11:36:09
76 You completely ignored the salient fact that taking a Draconian line (sorry Draco not personal) on penal policy actually leads to a more dangerous society.

I thought you wanted a safer one ?
77

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04/07/2009 11:37:34
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78

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/07/2009 11:38:49
80 what is the point in incarcerating a crook ? It costs the state gazillions of money and we don't get anything back for it. I would rather have a crook cleaning up dog shlt in a hi viz jacket with ''I'm a crook'' written on the back of it.
79

,

04/07/2009 11:39:08
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80

Tarchin,

Lothian 04/07/2009 11:40:30
Songs for the SNP and all other parties;
It's a Lovely Day To-Morrow
Look for the Silver Lining.
Keep Right on to the End of the Road

and for Kenny MacAskill;
My Object all sublime I shall achieve in time
To make the punishment fit the crime
The punishment fit the crime. (W.S.GILBERT)
81

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/07/2009 11:40:35
#75 Observer

You recall rightly. I am against a hate crimes provision in law but only because it gives some people more protection than others. Everyone should get the same protectio under the law. As Fifi says, your average ned should fear prison enough to give second thought as to whether he assaults anyone. Gay, straight, balck, white, Catholic or Jew, teenager or pensioner. Current SNP policy is just another chapter in a failed liberal experiment that's been going on since the 1960s. I'd have thought your ilk would have worked things out by now.
82

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/07/2009 11:40:45
83 It's chibbed, two 'b's. What's yer point caller ?
83

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04/07/2009 11:41:08
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Sgian Achlais,

04/07/2009 11:41:19
73Sorry Suzanne, 04/07/2009 11:29:37
What a joke. A few SNP posters stating "facts" with no back up.


Will you vote for them?

==========================

Please see #81. Sorry Sorry Suzanne for the delay I had to hang out the washing.

I think we Glasgow was the Murder Capital of Europe in 2002/2003.
85

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04/07/2009 11:42:17
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86

Fifi la Bonbon,

04/07/2009 11:42:39
#78 - you said that "Fifi is painting a scenario where someone gets a doing just because they are gay... "

Not exactly. I was suggesting that some bam sees someone and thinks I want to do that guy in, 'cos he's a poof, or one of themmuns, or whatever. Any excuse. The victim doesn't have to be gay or anything, it's just a label to make it easier to justify doin' him.

You may have led a more tender life than me, but I can assure you that there are people who take a notion to committing violence, and if they don't perceive a downside to this, will do it. If they think they might not be harshly treated when caught, they are more likely to do it. If the evidence of their experience tells them that when caught they are going to suffer mightily, and they've seen it happen to to others, the outcome is likely to be different.

87

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/07/2009 11:43:21
''I'd have thought your ilk would have worked things out by now.''

I don't think you actually understand what ''my ilk'' want. I am not a liberal in this matter. I want dangerous people incarcerated and Kenny Macaskill does too. But in order to do that we need to stop locking up offenders who should be dealt with in other ways.
88

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04/07/2009 11:43:29
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Observer,,

Glasgow 04/07/2009 11:45:46
92 I have not led a tender life at all as you know. And you seem to be missing the point. SNP policy is to incarcerate violent offenders, and not to incarcerate those who don't need incarcerating.
90

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/07/2009 11:46:08
#84 Observer

What you suggest is a good start off point for the first offender. Only you know as well as I do that it takes many offences to have been commited (i.e. many people to have become victims) before we get to that stage. And anyway, bleeding heart liberals would never allow someone to have to wear a high-viz jump suit with 'THIEF' or 'VANDAL' on the back because it would 'embarrass' them and break their human rights. Prison isn't cheap but it works in one crucial way. If a housebreaker is in prison he isn't breaking into yours or my house. End of.
91

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/07/2009 11:47:32
92 If we lock up people who don't need locked up, that is likely to make them more dangerous, not less. Ergo we are creating a more dangerous society.
92

Fifi la Bonbon,

04/07/2009 11:48:00
#80 "what is the point in incarcerating a crook?"

It makes honest citizens feel better, it gives respite to communities, and if word gets out that it's nasty, brutish and long, it gets inside the head of other crooks.

If, on the other hand, as now, we get the message that you can do what you like and you'll get told to pick up dog mess but if you don't bother turning up nothing much will happen to you, then it makes honest citizens feel worse and communities are no better off.
93

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/07/2009 11:50:15
96 But we can't lock up housebreakers for the rest of their lives. So you need to look at what is going to make them less likely to break into houses. What we currently do doesn't work, and costs the tax payer a fortune.

I don't thin human rights prevents you from being sentenced for a crime as long as you are allowed to go to the toilet in privacy.
94

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/07/2009 11:52:01
98 It doesn't give respite to communities. It doesn't work. That's the point. We lock up more people than the rest of Western Europe and we are one of the most lawless societies. Your policies don't work.
95

Dún Aenghus,

04/07/2009 11:52:17
Why am I not surprised? Six months on three meals a day recreation rooms,training facilities, TV, and a warm cell is not enough for attempted murder,is it? One month in prison for not having a TV licence,now thats what I call real justice!
96

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/07/2009 11:56:49
#97 Observer

You don't get the point. Not if they don't ever go to prison in the first place because it's a suitable deterant. The rson prison's are full is because so many people see prison as an occupational hazard, a price worth paying for getting away with much more than what they're caught for. Let me tell you a true tale. I once met a perfectly nice Malaysian guy, in prison for bringing drugs into Scotland. He wasn't a bad man, indeed he'd brought the drug in to pay for an eye operation for his elderly father. He'd taken a calculated risk and got caught and was doing 6 years. I asked him if he'd ever done anything similar back home. He laughed and asked if I thought he would be so stupid as to take the risk as, in Malaysia, drug smuggling meant the death penalty. I rest my case.
97

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04/07/2009 11:57:50
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Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/07/2009 11:58:18
#100 Observer

We lock up more people for patheiticaly short periods of time in relatively (very relatively) comfortable surroundings. Of course it's not going to work.
99

Sgian Achlais,

04/07/2009 12:01:11
If we remove the party political aspect to this debate most right minded people want similar action taken ad this is what we should be trying to achieve.

For example:

Breaking and entering a domestic residence
Unprovoked violent attacks on streets
Sexual crimes of violence and indecency
Use of weapons
Gang violence as this is often associated with other criminal activities and ruins communities
Repeat offenders

Etc, Etc.

Surely we should start from the point of making the streets safer for citizens to walk without fear.

I was down visiting my Granny in Greenock and it was like night of the living dead by 11pm in her estate. Where are the police and what are they doing? Paperwork never saved anyone. Compiling statistics about how bad it is will not solve the problem.
100

Fifi la Bonbon,

04/07/2009 12:01:14
100 - " It doesn't give respite to communities. "

If a violent bam is locked up for ten years then the community he used to patrol enjoys respite for ten years. And the other bams think thay might get the same and temper their own bammishness.

If the same violent bam is free to pick up dog mess for a few weeks (until he cottons on that nothing will happen to him if he stops) then there is no respite and the other bams realise that nothing bad will happen to them. And this is the situation that Mr McAskill's policies have brought us to.
101

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/07/2009 12:03:18
#106 Fifi

Exactly. God, twice on on thread.
102

Sgian Achlais,

04/07/2009 12:13:41
104Draco Was a Wimp, Edinburgh 04/07/2009 11:58:18
#100 Observer

We lock up more people for patheiticaly short periods of time in relatively (very relatively) comfortable surroundings. Of course it's not going to work.

==============================

Jail should be punishment. Some of these criminals have never done a days hard work in their lives. They have never seen a days hard work being done at home and they are often surrounded by family who have the same lack of values.

We should have them working on farms in remote parts of the highlands breaking sweat all day, aching muscles, exhausted, producing food and learning trades and being taught to read and write. Many of these criminals are a product of our failed social and education system.

They would hate every minute of it. Up at 5am and kept working all day. They could volunteer to join education classes but the first sign of slacking back on the farm until the end of the sentence.

At the very least we would filter those who could be saved and identify those who are just faulty.

Putting minor criminals with major criminals just allows recruitment of more foot soldiers for the criminal gangs.

The current system of walke up, jack up, relax and watch TV,play pool/PSP, read books
103

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/07/2009 12:14:46
Draco and fifi it seems an illogical position to me that when empirical evidence suggests that what you are doing is not working you should do more of it.

We lock up more people than any other comparable European country and quite clearly it doesn't work.

What we should be doing is locking up the right people, and disposing of the rest in more sensible and less costly ways. Which all the evidence suggests will lead to less re-offending.

I find it bizarre that anyone should argue against that position.
104

Fifi la Bonbon,

04/07/2009 12:19:43
There is a wider point here about partisan politics.

I do not believe for one minute that there are members of the Nationalist Party who disagree as profoundly with the Kenny McAskill line on liberating thugs as I do - I know there are plenty, including a lot of councillors. But because they perceive any criticism of policy as disloyalty thay keep their mouths shut in public. It's the same with transport. The Nationalist Party 2006 conference voted to regulate transport. Then just at the election, Mister Souter hands Mister Salmond a big bag stuffed with cash, the conference policy is dropped from the manifesto, and nobody makes a cheep of complaint. OK, other parties' members are loyal to one degree or another, but at least they speak out when they disagree and have debates in ther open. But the silence from Nationalist Party dissenters is eerie.

The Nationalist Party members who disagree with this daft policy need to start to speak out. Otherwise they are participating in a form of groupthink that is dreadfully unhealthy when their elected leaders have their hand in government.
105

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/07/2009 12:19:49
#108 Sgian Achlais.

Not disagreeing. As I said to Observer, what you describe should be the first option, for the first offender. Prison is for people who haven't learned and should be a place sanish people don't want to go try at all, let alone a second time.
106

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/07/2009 12:25:36
#109 Observer

You seem to be being deliberately obtuse. Both Fifi and I are arguing that locking people up for longer and in less comfortable circumstances is NOT the policy that has been visibly failing since the 1960s. It's a policy of locking people up for shorter periods in increasingly MORE comfortble conditions that hasn't worked. Fines don't get paid. Bail gets broken. Warrants are re-issued ads nauseam. Community services don't get carried out. All the alternatives that you are advocating. What do you suggest when criminals take the p*ss out of the easier options?
107

Fifi la Bonbon,

04/07/2009 12:32:31
112 - just to confirm. I don't want to go back to that labour/lib dem administrations did, which was not that much better than what Kenny McAskill is up to now.

I want a rigorous, harsh penal policy in which being locked up for a very long time in an unpleasant environment is a real prospect for the kind of people who presently perceive the system as a joke.

If Labour could get its head round that and stop worrying about what social work academics thought about the numbers being locked up being at record high, this would be a safer and more peaceful country.
108

Fifi la Bonbon,

04/07/2009 12:34:14
#113 - I missed a clause in my last sentence -

If Labour could get its head round that and stop worrying about what social work academics thought about the numbers being locked up being at record high, it would be well on the way to being in tune with the majority of voters, and this would be a safer and more peaceful country.
109

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/07/2009 12:35:10
110 You are just spouting rubbish now, complete mince. The SNP does not have a policy of liberating thugs. For the record they inherited a penal system that was completely not fit for purpose and are setting about trying to make it function, by locking up dangerous and violent offenders, and not incarcerating those who pose no risk. That is their policy if sherrifs don't do that it's not their fault, there is as we know a clear line between the legislature and the judiciary. Macaskill doesn't hand out sentences and the system is still dysfunctional in many ways; but that is not an excuse for just making things up which you are doing.
110

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/07/2009 12:38:00
114 No it would not be a safer and more peacful country. That's the point. You seem to want to go back to the era of the Victorians, earlier even. We used to transport people to Australia and hang children - is that tough enough for you ? In those days the country was far more dangerous than it is now.

Your policies don't work, thems the facts.
111

Fifi la Bonbon,

04/07/2009 12:38:43
My point at #110 was about the failure of dissenters in the Nationalist Party to speak out about this and other matters.

I don't believe that all members of that party agree with Kenny McAskill's policy, which I contend amounts to keeping thugs out of jail.
112

Fifi la Bonbon,

04/07/2009 12:39:36
#116 - the Victorians had msany virtues and their ways repay close study.
113

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/07/2009 12:40:05
#113 Fifi

Exactly. All the parties are as bad. All seem to have reached a liberal, hand-wringing consensus about this and have done since the 1960s. It's obvious none of them take on board what their constituents know works whn it comes to crime policy. Lock them up and lock them up long. I doubt many of our legislators have to put up with living surrounded by preditory, anti-social neighbours. I suspect that if MacAskill was living in Wardieburn rather than Merchiston he'd have a rather different outlook on things.
114

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/07/2009 12:40:43
112 Draco what I am saying is that we are locking up the wrong people. We should be locking up the right people. It's quite simple. And if we locked up the right people we could keep them there for as long as it takes. That's what most of our European neighbours do, and most of their countries are safer than ours.
115

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/07/2009 12:43:23
118 Oh please. You want to go back to the Victorian days ? Enough said.
116

A. White,

04/07/2009 12:46:43
GIVE A COLLECTIVE DEEP SIGH AFTER READING

Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was,
since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as:
Knowing when to come in out of the rain; Why the early bird gets the worm; Life isn't always fair; and maybe it was my fault.

Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you can earn) and reliable strategies (adults, not children,
are in charge).

His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a 6-year-old boy
charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for
reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.

Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job that they themselves had failed to do in disciplining their unruly children.

It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer sun lotion or an Aspirin to a student; but could not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an
abortion.

Common Sense lost the will to live as the churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims.

Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar could sue you for assault.

Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement.

Common Sense was preceded in death, by his parents, Truth and Trust, by his wife, Discretion, by his daughter, Responsibility, and by his son, Reason.

He is survived by his 4 ste
117

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/07/2009 12:47:46
#120 Observer

No you're not. You're avoiding the argument. You deliberately avoid the argument that since the 1960s penal policy has been to get increasingly liberal. Do you deny that is the case? Have sentences got longer and prison conditions harsher since then? Yes or no?
118

A. White,

04/07/2009 12:49:16

He is survived by his 4 stepbrothers;
I Know My Rights
I Want It Now
Someone Else Is To Blame
I'm A Victim

Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone.

If you still remember him, pass this on. If not, join the majority and do
nothing.
119

Fifi la Bonbon,

04/07/2009 12:52:47
#121 - are you saying the Victorians had few virtues and their ways do not repay close study? Or have you just stopped paying attention?
120

Sgian Achlais,

04/07/2009 12:55:54
#124 A White,

Is he related to Common Purpose. I keep hearing he is now running things from the many conspiracy theorists.

121

Fifi la Bonbon,

04/07/2009 12:59:13
#116 - seriously, though, a modern version of transportation would be very much worth considering.

I am perfectly sure that a deal with the Government of Malawi, for example, in which they would construct and staff prisons for Scots felons would benefit both countries.

A monthly sailing ship from Leith to Dar es Salaam and the onward forced march to Malawi would concentrate minds wonderfully, as well as being very much in keeping with the new Green thinking.
122

Sgian Achlais,

04/07/2009 13:04:16
I genuinely agree with the policy of the SNP.

It is a touch and unpopular decision that allows the Scottish Government to be attacked. They could easily repeat the same old mantra as the Labour/Conservatives about being tough on crime but under their policies nothing changed.

Now we will be able to weed out the first offenders from the repeat offenders. Save millions, Keep prison spaces for really dangerous people and try something different.

If you walk into a wall over and over again and make no progress the path you are taking is obviously not the correct one.

Fresh ideas are what is required. Fresh ideas are often unproven and make traditional conservative type worried.

Prison is often a badge of honour for many of the neds who go their.

The result is often they loose their jobs, loose their homes, destroy the families. When the offence could have been a fight after a club on Friday night with another wee ned.

One size does not fit all. Prison is a soft option politically.

We need to change the system as it is obviously not working.
123

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/07/2009 13:10:06
#128 Sgian Achlais

You're like Observer, although you have identified the problem. Labour and the Conservatives parrot the old mantra 'tough on crime' but nothing changes. As you say, nothing changes. Nothing changes because both parties talk the talk but failt to walk the walk. I'll give MacAskill has due, at least he's honest that he's going to be a soft sap. But he's following exactly the same failed path as his predecessors. Soft on crime, soft on offenders, f**k the victims.
124

Electric Hermit,

04/07/2009 13:19:02
123
Draco Was a Wimp

"Have sentences got longer and prison conditions harsher since then? Yes or no?"

Our prisons are overcrowded precisely because more people are being given custodial sentences and those sentences have been getting longer.

http://tiny.pl/33wh

If you want barbaric prison conditions, I suggest that instead of trying to make my country less civilised, you go and live in a one of the many countries whose medieval practices might be more to your taste.

125

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04/07/2009 13:32:45
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Electric Hermit,

04/07/2009 13:36:44
132
Sorry Suzanne

Is your deranged rambling supposed to convey something?

127

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04/07/2009 13:40:18
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Observer,,

Glasgow 04/07/2009 13:40:34
Draco you are looking at things in isolation. Everywhere has changed since the 1960's. Do some research into this - look at the way that some of our European neighbours manage their systems.

Fifi I know a lot of people want to somehow travel through time and reach a mystical era where we were all safe and you never locked your doors and people were given a stern flogging for offending and never did it again.

That era never existed. We are now actually safer than we have ever been. We don't need to turn the clock back we need to turn it forwards, that needs radical thinking and the SNP are doing that.

Radical is never popular but sometimes it is necessary.
129

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04/07/2009 13:52:07
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Electric Hermit,

04/07/2009 14:02:40
134
Sorry Suzanne

More deranged rambling.

131

Electric Hermit,

04/07/2009 14:07:07
135
Observer

"...that needs radical thinking and the SNP are doing that."

And they are to be applauded for it. We must accept also that radical thinking can often go wrong. If we want government that genuinely seeks effective solutions through innovative thinking, we have to permit them the space to fail.

132

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04/07/2009 14:09:18
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Electric Hermit,

04/07/2009 14:21:28
139
Sorry Suzanne

TROLL ALERT! DO NOT FEED!

134

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04/07/2009 14:26:12
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MacGhillieBhain,

Aberdeen 04/07/2009 15:07:51
To some on this thread who consistently condemn prison as an enjoyable holiday camp,I would say that If after doing a nine month stretch in one of our lovely jails,would THEY think the same? I don't think so. Anyway,If It's so cushy why so many escapes from jails?
136

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04/07/2009 15:16:02
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Electric Hermit,

04/07/2009 15:32:21
142
MacGhillieBhain

"To some on this thread who consistently condemn prison as an enjoyable holiday camp,I would say that If after doing a nine month stretch in one of our lovely jails,would THEY think the same?"

A very good point. It wouldn't take nine months to put these fools right. Three days on remand in Saughton and they would be singing a different tune.

138

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04/07/2009 15:34:59
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TheUnionisBritish,

04/07/2009 16:40:58
145 - nutters like you who sit on internet sites all day spewing cr!p are a disgrace to the Union and help the other side. Back in your box.
140

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/07/2009 17:06:59
#144 Electric Hermit

I'll bow to your obvious knowledge of time done on remand in HMP Edinburgh, but as to your claim that sentences are getting longer, you obviously live on a different planet. If you seriously consider 8, 12 or 15 years a suitable 'life' sentence for taking a life or perhaps two years for a rape then that's entirely reflective of why our 'justice' system is as pathetic as it is. Smug lawyers and bleeding heart liberals, the criminal's friends.They're laughing at you, and unfortunatelt the rest of us, all the way to their next victim.






141

Electric Hermit,

04/07/2009 17:24:26
147
Draco Was a Wimp

"I'll bow to your obvious knowledge of time done on remand in HMP Edinburgh..."

As you should. You should also reflect upon the different ways in which I might have come by this knowledge.

"...as to your claim that sentences are getting longer..."

I can believe the official statistics. Or I can take your word.

Imagine my dilemma.

142

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/07/2009 18:02:02
#148 Electronic Hermit

I didn't imagine for second that you came by your knowledge as a prisoner. A sanctimonious prig like yourself would have even less of a chance of surviving three days on remand as the rest of us mere mortals. Whatever your beloved official statistics say, you forget that faith in the 'justice' system is an important factor. People just see light sentences, repeat offending, innocent people traumatised by those who've been given too many chances, just so the likes of you can feel smug about being more 'civilised' than hoi polloi.
143

Electric Hermit,

04/07/2009 18:12:42
149
Draco Was a Wimp

"I didn't imagine for second that you came by your knowledge as a prisoner."

You don't know how I came by my knowledge. You just make up something in your wee pointy heid and then take it as fact because it was in your wee pointy heid.

"Whatever your beloved official statistics say..."

That's right! Don't let mere facts get in the way of an ignorant rant.

144

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/07/2009 18:17:08
#151 Electric Hermit

Must be great to be so omniscient. Doesn't stop you being a tos*er though. There, add low vulgarity to my ignorance.
145

Brianwci,

04/07/2009 18:18:05
Even though the figures were similar under Labour, the party's justice spokesman, Paul Martin, said: "These figures are a disgrace.....

You couldn't make it up could you?

No doubt Paul Martin can produce outrages he expressed concerning the Lab/Lib Dem figures from some years back?

146

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/07/2009 18:23:05
I think you are making a lot of assumptions Draco, and certainly in my case erroneously. Maybe I am at a disadvantage in that I am actually commenting on what is SNP policy, not what the Scotsman says is SNP policy. The SNP are not ''soft on crime'' that is a myth.

But the facts remain that Scottish jails contain more people per head of population than any other European country. Nearly half of those given custodial sentences in 2006-7 had already been to prison at least three times, and nearly one in six more than ten times. More than two thirds of offenders who do time are re-convicted within two years of release.

There is a widespread agreement among those closely involved in the Justice system that short sentences do little if any good. Statistics also show this, some 58% of offenders who get community service do not re-offend within two years, compared with only 26% of those released from prison sentences of six months or less. Yet over 80% of prison sentences currently being iposed by courts are for less than six months - a total of 14,686 in 2007-7, and around a third involve common assault, breach of the peace, drunkenness, or breach of a court order. Not murderers. Not rapists.

Jail is also an expensive punishment with the cost of housing a single prisoner ranging from about £30-40,000 per year.

The number of people locked up has grown by more than 20% since the start of the 21st C, increasing from an average daily population of 5,833 in 200-1, to 7,183 in 2006-7. That gives the highest incarceration rate in Europe; 141 prisoners for every 100,000 people in Scotland, compared with 118 less than a decade ago.

And it isn't working.

The SNP are not being soft on crime, they are asking judges not to impose a short, expensive, unproductive sentence of less than six months unless they absolutely have to. Because they know that they don't work.

There is nothing liberaly-hand wringing or in other ways naive and do-gooding about that
147

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/07/2009 18:33:34
And let's remember that Kenny Macaskill - a brave politician - did not make this up on the spot. It is based on the recommendations of the Prison Commission, chaired by Henry McLeish. The reality is that the other Parties know that the policy the SNP is pursuing is the right one - they are just being partisan in their opposition, which is rather pathetic really.
148

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/07/2009 18:42:03
#153 Observer

I haven't disagreed with you that short sentences don't work. It's just we're approaching this from different angles and you can't seem to acknowledge the possibilty that it's the fact that sentences are short that's not working, not being sentenced to prison per se. For all that Electronic Hermit is a patronising ers*, he's right about one thing, I have no personal knowledge of being on remand and have no wish to change that. For me, just the thought of going to prison is enough to keep me on the straight and narrow even if I had the notion to behave in a any way that would be likely to get me sent there. That so many people can go to prison so many times does indicate it's not intolerable. Perhaps if it were, so many wouldn't keep getting themselves sent back.
149

Allan(handofgod137),

04/07/2009 18:45:35
And sadly the cybergnat nuggets still rush to the defense of canny mcarshole, possibly the most incompetent justice minister in the world.
150

DialMforMurdoX,

04/07/2009 18:56:42
#156 "And sadly the cybergnat nuggets still rush to the defense of canny mcarshole, possibly the most incompetent justice minister in the world."

The irony here is that if you knew him, you'd know that he's be the first to bring back capital punishment if he could get away with it. McAskill is no lilly livered lover of soft crime.

The title of most incompetent justice minister in the world, ever, falls to Cathy Jamieson. So useless was she at her job, that an employee in her constituency office who witnessed the brutal attempted murder of two men in her own constituency, could not be persuaded to give evidence as a witness, because Cathy doll caved into threats from the perpetrators and could ony offer the witness a very limited witness protection scheme. She was utterly incompetent and to compare her inadequacies with McAskill's beggars belief.
151

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/07/2009 19:01:40
155 I don't have any objection to long sentences for *serious* crimes. I'd make them longer than they are now, in fact for some offenders I just wouldn't let them out, full stop.

But I don't think we can do that when we keep on lifting and jailing people who's chaotic lifestyles, addictive personalities, and mental deficincies are really to blame for their behaviour A lot of them can't read or write, have never had a job, live in transient accommodation like hostels, and you really couldn't make prison intolerable for them as their entire lives would be intolerable for the likes of me or you. I blame the so-called care in the community policy for a lot of this, there are people out there that just can't live in mainstream society and we just lock them up all the time for short periods, then we let them out, and then they just re-offend again.

That's the underlying problem and just sticking them in jail because we don't know what else to do with them is hopless. It's a revolving door system, it costs a fortune, and it doesn't work.
152

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/07/2009 19:06:04
#157 MurdoX

If that's the case, why is he being so cowardly and not standing up for what he believes? That's the problem, too many are cowed by the liberals lest they be thought of as backward, barbaric or heartless.
153

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/07/2009 19:15:58
#158 Observer

As so often, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I just hope you'll prove me wrong in the long run. I'll be happy to say I was wrong because I know we both want safer streets and people to feel secure. I doubt it though, the liberals have had there way for so long and they've failed. It will be interesting to see if issuing fixed penalties for minor offences like Breaches rather than locking people up for a couple of nights leads to less disorder. I suspect it'll just lead to even more warrants being issued for non-payment. You never say what your answer is for those who fail to comply with the softer option.
154

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/07/2009 19:23:01
160 Non compliance should lead to jail. But the evidence suggests that more people will comply than won't.

As for not paying fines, they should deduct them from their benefits at source.
155

Electric Hermit,

04/07/2009 19:31:11
151
Draco Was a Wimp

"...add low vulgarity to my ignorance."

Way ahead of you on that, Wimp.

156

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/07/2009 19:41:34
#161 Observer

And that's going to work right enough. A real deterrant. £2 a week for a hundred years. For the first fine. Meanwhile, the next fine is issued, then the next. Plus, the Justice department can't even talk to itself, let alone liaise with the DSS. Face it, fines are a waste of time for those that can't afford them. There are enough means warrants issued at the moment without adding those who didn't pay an ever-increasing use of fines or comply with an ever-increasing use of non-custodial sentences. As I say, though, I hope I'm proved wrong.
157

Electric Hermit,

04/07/2009 19:51:36
160
Draco Was a Wimp

"I'll be happy to say I was wrong because I know we both want safer streets and people to feel secure."

The streets are safer. The average person has far less chance of being a victim of crime no than at any time in the past.

If the popular perception is different then, to whatever extent you are able, maybe you'd like ti try and think why that might be. Is it not possible that part of the explanation at least could be numpties like you - who have never even seen, far less understood a crime statistic - running around soiling yourselves and screaming about how the sky is falling.

158

Alfie Bett,

04/07/2009 20:00:21
I wonder if any of these indignant unionists are going to explain in detail where the money is going to come from to build the extra half dozen jails that will be required to house the extra jailbirds.maybe build less schools,less hospitals? no?thought not.typical unionist hot air indignation with no constructive ideas.I wonder if any of the serial unionist garbage posters can answer.
159

DialMforMurdoX,

04/07/2009 20:01:39
#159 "If that's the case, why is he being so cowardly and not standing up for what he believes?"

Draco, it's called collective responsibility.
160

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/07/2009 20:06:29
#164 Electric Hermit

OK, wise guy. Humour an old numpty and direct me towards the publication that is a comparative of the average sentences for, lets say, housebreaking, serious assault, attempted murder or possession of an offensive weapon. Make it the last year for which we have statistics and, say, 1960. That's just before the liberal ascendancy (round about the time when Roy Jenkins became Home Secretary). If the average sentences for these offences is longer now and after fewer attempts at 'diversionary' punishment than it was in 1960 (bearing in mind there was no automatic remission in 1960), then I'll get back to you and happily apologise. While you're at it, if you happen to have comparative statistics of the numbers of these offences committed in 1960 and the last year available, I'd be very grateful and more than ready to have my misconceptions put right.
161

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/07/2009 20:07:48
#166 MurdoX

He can't hold his beliefs very dear then.
162

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/07/2009 20:14:32
163 You are right, fines are largely a waste of time for people who can't pay them, but we keep on issuing them, they don't pay them, they get all sorts of outstanding warrants, they get lifted, they get the jail, they come back out, and the whole rigmarole starts again.

It's hopless - but most of these people haven't committed serious offences. It's been a breach or something like that, probably caused by drinking too much or being out of their heads on drugs.

Completely depressing isn't it.

I'm not 100% positive that this will work, but we need to try and break the cycle.


163

El Franko,

04/07/2009 20:56:54
I see the day coming when criminals caught by the public will be desperate to be first to call the police in order to get protection, and be moved into the gentle arms of the criminal-care-and-recycling system.
164

Lee John,

04/07/2009 21:08:42
So many posts and so much sh­i­te.
165

Lee John,

04/07/2009 21:09:24
Draco disnae get it. Ha ha ha ha ha.
166

Electric Hermit,

04/07/2009 22:27:29
167
Draco Was a Wimp

Bu**er off and do your own research! I already posted a link to various reports.

Funny thing! You never show such devotion to evidential rigour when you are claiming sentences have got shorter etc. How about showing us some of your statistics.

167

Murray in Canada,

Salt Spring Island 04/07/2009 23:03:29
One of the troubles in the present system seems to be the sentencing, which is up to the official [judge, sheriff] in charge.If the sentence is seen as too light, then for goodness' sake change the law that mandates sentences. This can by done by the government, and the sheriff will have to follow it. One thing I'd like to see is an end to the stupid practice of two [or more!] sentences running simultaneously. They should be consecutive.
168

Danric,

Glasgow 05/07/2009 13:04:53
Re Jail Sentence

I lost my son in car accident- he was passenger-
Driver was sentenced to 2 years in court room-
released after 7 months-
My son value of life is now 7months-what garbage is the justice system.
I have met Justice Secretary and spoke my mind- waste of time - as expexted-
If sentence is less than a certain length would u beleive it is automaticaly halved- its the law-
what a waste of judge and jury and public expense.
U cannot immagine the anger victims of crime have in them, bacause of the justice sysyem
danric
169

Kornelius,

Aberdeen 06/07/2009 08:20:33
How would you feel as a father about a judge not upholding a court order ( Which you should not need anyway )against a mother that withholds the children from the father and all of his extended family?
Yes, this is exactly what is happening out there.
Their stance is one of "O if we punish the mother we would be punishing the children" What a heap of claptrap! The children are being punished by the father being shut out.
This should not be a gender issue because we are supposed to be equal. Think again folks, we have an incredibly biased and twisted system and thousands of children are suffering the loss of a loving and devoted parent. Our Justice secretary Kenny MacAskill MSP erroneously believes that cases where a resident parent does not give access ‘are few in number—they happen rarely, and powers exist to address the situation’( Scottish Parliament Official Report 15
September 2005 Family Law (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1)
The guy is in Cloud cuckoo land, he must be removed!

 

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