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Anger as Salmond claims Scottish troops are opposed to Iraq war

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Published Date: 21 March 2008
ALEX Salmond, the First Minister, last night defended his claim that Scottish troops were against the Iraq war.
He insisted Scottish troops agreed with him in opposing the invasion and said: "Don't believe that the views of Scots squaddies are any different to the views of the Scottish population."

But his view was condemned by Des Browne, the Defence Secre
tary, the Scottish Conservatives and a Labour MSP.

Mr Browne, who is also Scottish Secretary, said he completely rejected the First Minister's assumption. "Alex Salmond's comments are simply nonsense," he said.

"On every occasion I have been in Iraq, I have met Scottish soldiers across the ranks and they are all extremely proud of the work they have done in liberating Iraq from tyranny, training Iraqi forces and providing the Iraqi people with security from some of the most vicious terrorists in the world."

He added that it was revealing that, to his knowledge, "no SNP MPs or MSPs have been out to visit our troops".

Mr Browne said: "No doubt they fear having to explain to ordinary Iraqis why, five years on, the SNP still regret the toppling of the tyrant who oppressed them."

Murdo Fraser, the Scottish Conservatives' deputy leader, said Mr Salmond's comment had been an "unwarranted and unwanted intervention", and he accused the First Minister of "seeking to politicise our armed forces for narrow political ends".

He went on: "He is playing a dangerous game in potentially undermining the morale of frontline troops, who daily put their lives on the line.

"I cannot imagine the families of those serving in Iraq welcome these destabilising comments. This is not the action of a statesman or a responsible politician."

The Labour MSP George Foulkes said: "The arrogance of Alex Salmond knows no bounds. If he or any of his SNP colleagues had bothered to visit our troops in Iraq, he would see the pride they hold for the job they do."

Mr Salmond had told BBC's Reporting Scotland: "They (troops] do their job because they are professionals and they do it bravely and completely.

"They get kicked in the teeth when they are in Iraq by their regiments being wound up. They get treated disgracefully by the government across a range of ways, which has broken the military covenant. But their views about the rights and wrongs of conflict are very similar to the rest of us."

The First Minister yesterday defended his claims, saying he received complaints all the time from service families about the treatment of serving troops and their poor equipment.

"Des Browne should be apologising to everyone in the country for being part of the disgraceful decision five years ago to drag us into an illegal war on a false prospectus. And he should apologise to every service family for breaking the military covenant by scrapping the historic Scottish regiments," he said.

"It is nonsense to imagine that these brave men and women – who come from all the communities of Scotland – differ in their views from their friends, families and the population at large about the fact that Tony Blair took the country into an unlawful war on bogus information."

Mr Salmond was supported in his views by campaigner Jeff Duncan, of the Reinstate Our Army Regiments group.

He blamed the government's "destructive action" that had led to the disbandment of the Royal Scots Regiment and the amalgamation and effective ending of the remaining five Scottish regiments.

He added: "Alex Salmond is a great friend of Scotland's servicemen and women, and he is entirely right to speak his mind in the way he has.

"The SNP have held to a clear and consistent position on Iraq, which I, too, believe is shared among the troops."

Meanwhile, in a survey leaked to Channel 4 News last night by the Army Families Federation, 46 per cent of army spouses said they would be happier if their partner left the forces.





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 20 March 2008 9:50 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

DER FUHRER,

21/03/2008 00:20:55
I wonder how Alex Salmond knows that Scottish troops are against the Iraq war.

It is truly amazing what he knows.

Mind you he thought that Basil Fawlty was in Monty Python. SO what does that tell you?
2

somerferg,

Perth 21/03/2008 00:36:25

#1 - my you have been busy. And with SO many witty and interesting comments too.
3

Sanny,

21/03/2008 00:38:12
Adolph
Believe me our lads ARE against this useless war. They will do their duty, but they know this is not what they signed up for. Why are so many choosing to leave the services? When it come to defending our Nation there has never been a shortage of volunteers, but this is not about defending home and hearth, hence the rapid depletion of the military strength.

If you can't see this then your even more stupid than your chosen pen name implies.
4

The Daleks,

Longmen 21/03/2008 00:49:33
Does the Scotsman think that running these endless anti-Salmond, anti-SNP scare pieces actually has any effect.

I scarcely bother to read the predictable guff (independence bad/Labour Party good)that masquerades as political journalism in the Scotsman these days.

It's just like the boy who cried wolf. Eventually people just stop listening.
5

Fifi la Bonbon,

21/03/2008 00:53:43
I hate to be blunt about this, but it doesn't matter whether they are for against the war in Iraq or Afghanistan or anywhere else. I am sure that most have personal views, and would not be surprised if many were opposed in strong terms to the Government's policy. But they are committed to serve and we all know they will do their duty. It is wrong of any politician to try to co-opt them for political ends.

6

subrosa,

21/03/2008 01:00:24
# 1

Because people like me tell him. And we should know, we're the families who have to sit and worry.
7

W Smith,

Middle East 21/03/2008 01:15:44
Salmond is becoming increasing delusional with every passing week.

How many Scottish soldiers believe the cr** Salmond comes out with?

1) The Islamic faith is "one of the world's great religions'.

2) NATO is some kind of evil empire.

3) Regimes in Iran and Zimbabwe are worth writing love letters to.

4) Let's get rid of Trident.

5) Let's kick out the Army from Edinburgh Castle.

6) Let's go on protest marches with IRA and Hezbollah supporter George Galloway.

Salmond goes on protest marches with communists like Kate Hudson (CND) and Lyndsey German (Stop the War Coalition) and he supports Osama Saeed in 'resisting' the Special Branch and NOW HE THINKS HE REPRESENTS THE VIEWS AND THE VALUES OF OUR LADS SERVING IN THE BRITISH ARMED FORCES.

EARTH CALLING SALMOND!!....COME IN SALMOND!!...
8

subrosa,

21/03/2008 01:16:56
# 8

You know you do write drivel.
9

Yoohoo,

21/03/2008 01:26:20
The Nazis were not allowed to use the excuse of 'I was only following orders'. I feel terrible for the young Scottish men and women in the British army who are not being given guidance on their right to refuse to fight in an illegal war. I do not blame the young soldiers. I blame their leaders and, of course, the corrupt British government.
10

,

21/03/2008 02:13:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
11

2Right,

On Location 21/03/2008 02:25:11
He has a point
More than 20.000 quit this year leaving us 6.00 shy of the amount needed to keep us working.

The Royal Scots should have been kept.

Wonder if Des supports us all having our kids swearing allegience to her Maj too.

Great ideas from the english supported by Des Broon eh
12

gaffer,

Kamloops 21/03/2008 02:42:37
Im really curious, war has never been declared by any of the allied countries in this sad situation yet many of the worlds armies are expected to go in and have their soldiers die in an attempt to solve problems that have been going on for as long as time between the all the ruling tribes.
when WWW1 came on , it was war declared, when WW@ came along , it was war declared , what happened this time , was war not declared because of how much other countries have invested there and to declare war openly would threaten the investment , Im surprised that Irac and Iran , havent nationalised foreighn comapnies the way castro did in Cuba , maybe then the would re think about what belongs to who
13

Jock Politicaljunkie,

Glasgow 21/03/2008 02:51:53
I think the wider populous would be more inclined to agree with the support given to Salmond by Jeff Duncan of the Reinstate our Army Regiments Group than the criticism of Des Browne.

Jeff Duncan has, after all, served his country (in the RAF), whilst Des Browne is just a part-time Defence Minister and part-time Colonial Governor.
14

Jim A,

21/03/2008 05:32:20
#14 Gaffer, I don't think any declaration of War has been made by any country since WWII (could be wrong). But looking back, Korea, Vietnam, The Six Day War, The Falklands Conflict, The Russian Invasion of Afghanistan, Iran/Iraq war, Conflicts in Africa past and present, Invasion of Grenada, Iraq & Afghanistan today. Although a few of them may have had United Nations backing I don't think a declaration of war was ever made in any of them. Hmmm, it must have gone out of fashion or something, who knows.
15

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 21/03/2008 07:07:33
It's simply stunning how stupid Browne, the Baron and whatever anonymous Tory they've dug up for this story are. Every time Salmond says something contentious to their core beliefs, there they are scrabbling around for the best sound bite. They step in the trap every time. They don't have their finger anywhere near the pulse of popular belief and time and time again the FM shows them up for the pro-dependence junkies they are.

As for the troll W Smith of 'the middle east', we're all aware he's hiding out in the middle east after a warrant for massturbating a dolphin in the Moray firth wa issued by Northern Constabulary.
16

Paratus,

Seven Hills, NSW 21/03/2008 07:08:34
Scottish soldiers are Jocks, not Squaddies. Anyway, they're British soldiers and they do what the British government tells them - just as they'd do what a Scottish government said, if Scotland were independent. Pray God that never happens - we've successfully run the UK for three hundred years without anybody being any the wiser and Alex Salmond's policy position seems to begin and end with trying not to be British. That's not enough - the man needs to get out a bit more.

To (mis)quote somebody famous and probably now long-dead: What does he know of Scotland if he only Scotland knows?


17

www.r-o-a-r.org,

Dundee 21/03/2008 08:01:17
I have managed the Save the Scottish Regiment Campaign and now Reinstate Our Army Regiments campaign for almost 5 yrs now. During that time Alex Salmond has shown immense committment to Scottish soldiers.

I myself have probably met more service personnel than any of the politicians or media commentators during this time. Almost without exception soldiers realise the war in Iraq and Afghanistan is unwarranted and frankly do not want to be there.

Labour lie about the true situation in Iraq and most certainly lie about how soldiers view Iraq and their involvement.

Alex Salmond has met many Scottish soldiers whilst with me - most recently this year in Dundee at a charity abseil for Combat Stress and The Black Watch.
18

www.r-o-a-r.org,

21/03/2008 08:09:42
http://www.theblackwatch.co.uk/BW_Christmas_message.wmv
19

www.r-o-a-r.org,

Dundee 21/03/2008 08:13:48
I have also been the Black Watch webmaster for the past 5 years and during that time have visited Black Watch soldiers in Warminister preparing for their tour of duty to Iraq.

I can assure everyone that whilst each and every soldier was keen to ensure they did their very best whilst their - without exception the general feeling was why they were going in the first place.

Politics was the main reason given.

It is very insulting to soldiers to imply they are somehow on a mission to liberate Iraqis and Afghans - that is PR spin from a Labour Party that talks the talk but in reality disbands the Royal Scots, denies proper healthcare to injured soldiers and denies Ghurkas a pension - despite having done exactly the same role as Scottish soldiers.

Labour have no shame - no morals and no respect amongst Scottish soldiers.
20

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 21/03/2008 08:17:48
#23 Well said Sir.
21

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 21/03/2008 08:18:04
Salmond lives by the "divide and conquer" rule. This isn't the first time he has exposed the negative side in his character that serves to further alienate Scots from our cousins south of the border. He has the sensitivity of a playground bully and we should not be taken in by the smarmy charm he tries to exude when glad handing his way around our little country to his next photo shoot opportunity.
22

Kenny A,

21/03/2008 08:20:17
A few very good comments 16

A few poor ones 8

I do not know if the majority of Scottish troops are against this war as I am no longer serving. One thing I do know for certain is a lot of troops from all regions of the UK are against it. I know a number of highly skilled and proffessional soldiers from various ranks who have left just because they think it is wrong.

It by they way for a soldier is a massive decision to leave the service for this reason. Many others have also left because the do not get to see their families very often due to overstreach.

There is a real problem at present.

Thats my pennies worth.
23

Neil McCart,

Cheltenham 21/03/2008 08:20:59
Whether we like it or not Alex Salmond is absolutely right in what he says. Despite this Government's best attempts to gloss over and downplay the appalling death, destruction and chaos they have helped to cause in the Middle East, the overwhelming majority of the British public were opposed to this invasion, and the lies and deception which were used to justify it, right from the start, and they remain opposed to the military occupation which is there to keep a puppet government in power. They remain opposed to it. Our servicemen and women are, when all is said and done, representative of the public at large, so their thoughts reflect public opinion.
24

Kenny A,

21/03/2008 08:21:53
23 also in the good comments section for your posts.
25

glassbenmhor,

21/03/2008 08:22:58
ROAR good to here you buddy,
WE WILL HAVE OUR VENGENCE FROM THESE LIEBOUR SCUMBAGS,IF ITS THE LAST THING I SEE BROWN LOOSING HIS DEPOSIT THEY WILL HAVE TROUBLE CLOSING THE LID ON MY COFFIN FOR THE SMILE UPON MY FACE.
VOTE LIEBOUR------------FOR YER GRANNY
VOTE SNP----------------FOR YER CHILDREN
Signed:-EX-Piper 1st Bn. Black Watch

26

glassbenmhor,

21/03/2008 08:37:42
I suppose Liberal for Life,you can remember at the start of this debacle when General Walker was upon the battlefield to the west of Basra and sensibly holding back not that he had to but like a good General was thinking to the future ,why flatten the place when your likely going to be left to restart and replace all that infrastructure.
Well at this time the a*se fell out of Labour credibility ,the good general was placed under extreme pressure from Hoon and then Blair,because that military half-wit Rumsfeld had from Washington decided he was going to slow.Maybe your are not familiar with the British Military ,I am and this was f*cking disgraceful.
No matter what is said to me about anything upon Iraq or Afghanistan if it comes from the Government it is a total pack of lies full stop.
27

glassbenmhor,

21/03/2008 08:41:16
What is this?

O

Donald Rumsfeld's IQ
28

www.r-o-a-r.org,

21/03/2008 08:44:09
http://www.r-o-a-r.org/news/ACT_OF_BETRAYAL.pdf

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/magnus_linklater/article612062.ece

http://www.r-o-a-r.org/news/april/2.html

29

glassbenmhor,

21/03/2008 08:51:18
Donald Boy was told by possibly 100 Generals that they were not ready for this commitment at that point in time.
So of to Washington and audience with President Cheney ,and Dick tells him its now, right now and that he couldn't give a *uck what any General thought the Corporate Board Rooms had spoken and it was going to be a war just like the good old days,we'll be charging the Taxpayer for building a bridge on Tuesday,the Air Force will blow it up at the weekend,the boys will be rebuilding it Monday morning,and we'll the charging the *uckers on Capitol Hill on Tuesday again.Oh,Oh but this time there will be OIL and lots off it.
Yup the same old way, all over again!
30

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 08:52:22
AS says one thing and Des Browne says another and this is a story is it???

"They get kicked in the teeth when they are in Iraq by their regiments being wound up. They get treated disgracefully by the government across a range of ways, which has broken the military covenant. But their views about the rights and wrongs of conflict are very similar to the rest of us."

Even Des Browne cant argue or deny that.
On top of all that they are paid peanuts for working 24/7 they have to pay for their own food and accomodation. They have to pay for missing kit and uniforms. Officers have to pay their mess bills just for membership which is compulsory and have to buy their own dress uniforms.

Aye Des they must love it over there.
when is your tour by the way??
31

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 08:55:13
The British government does not allow the soldiers to express any political opinions at all. I would very much doubt that many people in the forces share the world view of Des Browne who doesn't even want the public to hear from independent committes about soldiers deaths.
32

A Scott,

Glasgow 21/03/2008 09:00:04
#4.....I agree. I am that disgusted and bored I now read the North Briton on-line only very occasionaly.
33

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 21/03/2008 09:00:52
#25 Illiberal for Life, where are the photo ops of Blair or Brown visiting wounded service personnel in hospital?
34

,

21/03/2008 09:01:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
35

CRAGman,

21/03/2008 09:06:40
Don't ever believe a word that Gerri Peev writes.
36

www.r-o-a-r.org,

Dundee 21/03/2008 09:10:22
Even the Black Watch CO was told by General Jackson to get into line and stop complaining or his career would come to a sharp STOP.

Bully tactics have been used within the military to silence any dissent.

If anyone thinks that an opinion can be expressed freely within the ranks is very wrong.

That said a few brave Black Watch soldiers did just that to the media.

Link below is from SCOTSMAN where soldiers in Iraq give THEIR opinions - not the PR lies of Des BRowne

www.r-o-a-r.org/bwsoldiers
37

www.r-o-a-r.org,

Dundee 21/03/2008 09:20:28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16bPATQnAU4
38

McMillar,

Fife 21/03/2008 09:22:00
I thought everyone was opposed to this war? It is illegal and clearly a mistake but the soldiers are stuck in with a job to do whether they believe in it or not. I’m sure they are doing a great job there but the sooner we are out the better. Not in my name…and all that.
39

shivago8,

livingston 21/03/2008 09:40:13
SALMOND is a first rate minister who keeps his ear to the ground and is aware of what is happening to our country
He did not say this simply by wakening up in the morning and tell people that the sodjers are against the wars
He is in charge of our country,these soldiers are Scottish and he should be the man to say where they will be or wont be
40

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 09:44:25
"Anger as Salmond claims Scottish troops are opposed to Iraq war"

You have to love the headline.
as if Des Brownes anger was representative of anything other than Des Brownes anger.
What a rag.
41

Islay Herald,

21/03/2008 09:44:38
The SNP have held a clear and consistent position, the right one in this case, which was against the needless and counter-productive war in Iraq. Anybody who maintains that this war was a good idea is either lying to themselves or simply lying. Maybe its time supporters of the war got their tin hats on and got themselves out there to help clear up the mess.
Anyhow, there's a simple way to settle the debate - Go to the Scottish Soldiers and take a poll. We'll soon see.
Mr Browne and Mr Foulkes are right in that no SNP minister has visited the troops in Iraq, but that's because 1) they didn't start the war, the New Labour government did, and 2) defence and foreign policy is a reserved issue under the devolution settlement which New Labour devised.
BTW - I'm afraid the troops will be there for years yet and there is no early withdrawal, so stop asking for one. Its the old bull in a china shop analogy - You broke Iraq, so you fix it!
42

www.r-o-a-r.org,

Dundee 21/03/2008 09:45:42
Well said 43 - the sooner these London/Scot lackies realise that we are not being ruled by London and nor do we want to be the better for everyone!!!
43

Toast,

21/03/2008 09:49:20
Big difference between taking pride in your work and believing that the the job is moral in the 1st place. Des Browne part-time defence secretary another man promoted way above his capabilities.
44

G,

dundy 21/03/2008 09:56:40
Alec Salmond has taken the armed forces name and reputation and used it for his party political ends - he is a disgrace...........
45

Linda,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 10:07:06
The Scotsman to-day says it has taken the "unprecedented step" of making a front-page apology to Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon.
"We do so because we accept a number of vitriolic articles in the newspaper have suggested the couple caused the death of Scotland and then covered it up.
"We acknowledge there's no evidence whatsoever to support this theory and that Alex and Nicola are completely innocent of any involvement in their country’s decline. We trust that the suspicion that has clouded their lives for many months will soon be lifted.
"As an expression of its regret, the Scotsman and Edinburgh Evening News has now paid a very substantial sum into the Independence Fund and we promise to do all in our power to help efforts to rebuild the Scottish Nation.
46

bill-alba,

Fife 21/03/2008 10:09:40
g, dundy...it wasnt alex salmond who disbanded the regiments when they were still at war so who was it..Alex is right to speak up about anything that effects Scotland and its people..so I would say that Westminster is a disgrace and I mean all of Westminster not just the labour government.
47

John S,

21/03/2008 10:14:14
As the elected leader of the Scottish Government, Alex Salmond is rightly to be concerned about the welfare and the well being of all the Scottish people including those serving with the British Armed Forces.
He would be neglecting his duty if this was not the case.
48

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 10:19:05
51

Thats a good point. New Labour sends the British army to war with insufficient kit and then further supports them by disbanding their regiments and cutting their numbers while they are deep in the sh*t carrying out New Labour party foreign policy.
And Des Browne is angry because its been pointed out that Scottish soldiers are unhappy about it.
Well f*ck me.
49

yockel,

21/03/2008 10:28:55
When did we liberate Iraq from tyranny, I must have missed that.
Do you think conjoining the posts of Minister of Defence and Scottish Minister is a statement of intent, a portent of things to come?
50

Allan(handofgod137),

21/03/2008 10:34:38
Typical leftist drivel from wee eck as usual.
51

www.r-o-a-r.org,

Dundee 21/03/2008 10:37:41
48 and 55 - How do you arrive at your statements?
Seems you are missing something in your arguement - like an explanation?
52

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 21/03/2008 10:38:45
# 30 & 37 - stop changing the argument away from Salmonds despicable tactics on this subject. The LibDems led the arguments against the Iraq war so stop preaching to me. Most Labour politicians were inclined to support the removal of saddam in the vain hope it would start and stop with his removal - supported by the dodo Tories they have been proven wrong. The right thing was to await the findings of the UN mission as espoused by the LibDems and the French and German governments.

On this particular issue Salmond is only following his instinct of picking fights with Westminster at any cost - the man is unfit for purpose as Scotlands First Minister and his CAVALIER approach continues to discredit that office. Thats my point - get it?
53

Aesop,

edinburgh 21/03/2008 10:42:23
Only three anti-SNP/independence stories in the Scotsman today? The editors of The Herald will be smiling as they pick up the converts. (Not that The Herald is much better).

All in all, Scotland is very badly served by its unionist media.
54

www.r-o-a-r.org,

Dundee 21/03/2008 10:52:55
#57 - What is 'despicable' about telling the truth?

You are clearly speaking about something you have little knowledeg of. Since 2003 Alex Salmond has campaigned to preserve the Scottish Regiments, has been visited by numerous families of Scottish soldiers with tales of neglect on returning home injured from Iraq and was the only mainstream politician to continue to support the campaign to Save Scotland's Army Regiments - unlike the liberals who clammered for support prior to the election then melted away the day after - refusing to committ themselves to the fight thereafter.

As usual Liberals are the worst of all the parties - change like the direction of the wind - no convictions and trying to claim the moral high ground. Weak and pathetic are two words I associate with the Liberals.
55

MacFhraing,

Callanish 21/03/2008 10:54:28
58. You' re right. No wonder hardly anyone in Scotland reads this New Labour newsletter any more. Relentless anti- Salmond / SNP / SNP Government / Holyrood propaganda. What appeared in this "newspaper" prior to 1997 ?
56

dimba,

21/03/2008 11:00:42
they aren't scottish troopps they ARE BRITISH. GOT IT?
57

tartan army 2222,

21/03/2008 11:02:19
I'd love to see the circulation figures for this newspaper - I'd put money on them dropping from last year's low of 56,000.

When are they going to start objectively reporting the news instead of reworking headlines and stories to suit their own unionist views. People are getting sick of it and that is going to be reflected in sales.

Surely the best way to have reported this story would have been to try and work out who is right - Salmond or Browne. Ask a few soldiers and their families - then report the results. Simple.
58

tartan army 2222,

21/03/2008 11:03:40
#61 dimba (oh the irony)

No - if you are born in Scotland, you are Scottish. Calling them British might not technically be wrong, but neither is calling them Scottish. Got it?
59

Kenny A,

21/03/2008 11:12:49
61 Dimba, No

There are Royal Regiments, County Regiments, Scottish Regiments, once upon a time Highland and even Government Regiments, but I cannot Bring a British one to mind except from The British Expeditionary Force.

Totaly against the Regimental system this British thing, So very sorry they are Not British Troops. GOT IT
60

Kenny A,

21/03/2008 11:16:18
63 Also disagree, plenty people born in Scotland who are not and never will be Scottish, childern of diplomats, American servicemen etc.

Can be Scottish without being born here though, depends where your parents were working and also many people decide to be Scottish after living there for a while, my own views on that are so why not, applies equaly to other countries also.
61

Nikostratos,

21/03/2008 11:24:35
Alex Salmond and his snp cohorts have just unveiled the new snp tank they propose for the army..............it goes 90MPH and has 12 gears...........all reverse
62

tartan army 2222,

21/03/2008 11:26:31
65 Kenny

Sure, we can pick bones, but generally what I said was correct.

I do agree with you regarding people being born outwith Scotland being Scottish. Equally, if someone moves here and sees themselves as Scottish then they are, to my mind, Scottish.
63

tartan army 2222,

21/03/2008 11:29:20
66 nikostratos

So all the unionists have left are old jokes about the Italian army. Maybe if blair and brown had used a few reverse gears we wouldn't be in the mess we're in now.
64

Kenny A,

21/03/2008 11:29:27
67 Tartan

Dam agreed with me, hoping some idiot would put the boot in and come up with some nonsense.
65

tartan army 2222,

21/03/2008 11:32:16
lol, always the mediator me
66

Queen D,

Glasgow 21/03/2008 11:36:27
Tartan Army , 50800!
67

G,

dundy 21/03/2008 11:48:15
Another shameful piece of spin by sleazeball Salmond...what's up Alec - is running the country too difficult? - raising issues and spinning stories is much less tiring....maybe this will take attention away from Swinney's sums....
68

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 11:49:50
Professional soldiers should not voice political views in public. It is the duty of professional soldiers to do their duty in a neutral manner. If Scotland becomes independent and the Scottish prime minister directs them to pick flowers, then that is what they must do without complaining. Similarly, politicians from whatever side should not attribute partisan political views to serving soldiers.
69

the reporter,

Godalming, Surrey 21/03/2008 11:53:34
Perhaps if Tony Blair and a few other labour ministers , in 2003, had to send their sons to fight in the front line of the invasion of Iraq, then there would not have been an ilegal war.
70

tartan army 2222,

21/03/2008 11:53:59
71 queen d

Cheers, much as i expected
71

www.r-o-a-r.org,

Dundee 21/03/2008 11:56:48
#73

It is the duty of the First Minister of Scotland to stand up for the people of Scotland and most certainly when the Labour led London Liars are sending young men to their death for no real good and valid reason.

Alex Salmond has done his utmost to campaign against the destruction of some of the most admired Regiments in the world.

If everyone lay down and rolled over like you suggest we would be living in a chinese-like state!

Why dont you go to Iraq and watch your mates get blown up for Rumsfield and Tony/Gordon - nah I suspect you are an armchair critic!
72

Paul Carline,

Scotland 21/03/2008 12:06:29
The excuse: "I was just following orders" did not wash at the Nuremberg Trials, and it would not wash in the trials for war crimes which, if there were any justice, would be being held at the International Criminal Court in the Hague.
The invasions and occupations of both Afghanistan and Iraq constitute war crimes, crimes against humanity, a crime against peace, and genocide. Britain is signed up to all the international laws and treaties which ban aggressive war - the "supreme international crime" according to the Nuremberg Judgement.
We have been told lies for years that the Security Council can authorise war. It's not true. Even if the 'second resolution' had been secured, the invasion would have been illegal. Article 41 of the UN Charter explicitly excludes 'armed force' as a measure the Security Council can implement.
I'm sure there are soldiers with a conscience here, as there are in the US. They know the war is immoral and illegal. In law, they are actually obliged to disobey orders. But it is the politicians and military leaders who are primarily guilty and who should be tried as war criminals.
Crime reports alleging war crimes and genocide have now been submitted to several different police forces across the UK by members of the Campaign to Make Wars History. Scotland Yard is investigating allegations against Blair, Brown, Hoon, Straw, Goldsmith and many others.
It's time the rule of law was restored in international affairs. The illegal actions of our representatives have brought shame and disgrace on the whole country.
73

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 12:11:39
Why are the same logons taking the contrary view to the majority irrespective of the subject under discussion has anybody else noticed this pattern???
74

Sanny,

21/03/2008 12:12:53
With the continuous drain of soldiers from all regiments coupled with the scarcity of new recruits, we are rapidly reaching the position where we won’t have an army to send to these illegal wars. We will have withdrawn from these war theatres by the resignation of our servicemen.

Of course our ex-servicemen will remember who it was that got them into this position, who failed to support them with proper kit, who failed to support their wounded comrades and who miss-treated their families whilst they were attending to their duty. We will end up with an ex-army that is opposed to New Labour. The Scots will remember that the one Politician and Political Party that tried to defend their corner was Alex Salmond and the SNP.

The covenant between the military and the administration has been trashed by this NL government. Worse it has been aided and abetted by the Lilly Livered MP’s of the other parties with the Noble exception of the SNP.
75

Sanny,

21/03/2008 12:14:16
78 Foulkes Off the CyberNat
could it be that they are simply Unionist Trolls?
76

www.r-o-a-r.org,

Dundee 21/03/2008 12:21:04
#79

Well said Sanny. The moral of Scottish Soldiers has been eroded by Labour politicians. The bare-faced lies that are contrary to everything those soldiers experience says one thing to them.

We can lie to the public about how we value you - you will just take it.

Well many soldiers are not taking it and they are leaving - not too mention that the drop in recruits is immense. Why risk your life for a government intent on demoralising you, undervaluing you and destroying the corps de espirit of regiments such as the Black Watch?

Is it any wonder the army is in crisis!!!
77

Proximaking,

Dundee 21/03/2008 12:49:12
Well I think Salmond is right. The EBC were talking to British troops in Basra yesterday and it was shown on the news last night and they were all saying they were wasting their time and were simply targets now. I think most troops went out with the deluded idea they were going to help, they knew different pretty early on and most aren't scared to admit it. What are they there for anyway? To provide years of cover for "royals" to go off and pot a few humans for a couple of months instead of shooting the "grice" on one of grannies estates? The whole thing has been a mockery from the start and was always about Saddam having the temerity to be pushing for oil to be sold in Euros instead of Dollars which would mean of course that eventually the USA wouldn't simply be able to export its inflation any more by printing dollars as it has done for the last 60 years when it colonised the vacuum left by the European powers after WWII. Aren't we sorry now we didn't listen because not only will oil soon be traded in Euros anyway but the world economy will have been smashed to make sure it is. All totally uneccessary, the USA was handed a golden opportunity to change the world peacefully on the 11th of September 2001, ..... look at how it has squandered that opportunity, ...... someone once said "turn the other cheek" and that was all they had to do. And no this isn't being wise after the event, a good third of the people in the UK and the USA were saying it the day after, including Salmond, but "War War beat Jaw Jaw" and those responsible for it are still avoiding impeachment and jail, indeed one of them is swanning around raking the money in, ..... why? I only want that one question answered, ..... why?
78

Miss H,

21/03/2008 13:36:31
"They (troops] do their job because they are professionals and they do it bravely and completely.

"They get kicked in the teeth when they are in Iraq by their regiments being wound up. They get treated disgracefully by the government across a range of ways, which has broken the military covenant. But their views about the rights and wrongs of conflict are very similar to the rest of us."

Can anybody actually argue with any of that?

Also I think Alex should now make a formal request to the MoD to go out on an official visit to see Scots troops in Iraq. After all he has been invited in a manner of speaking.

Let's put it to the test. If the troops all boo him we will know that Des Browne is right won't we?
79

Miss H,

21/03/2008 13:38:06
6 Who is that addressed to? To Des Browne or Alex Salmond?
80

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 21/03/2008 13:42:52
#59 -its Salmond and his cohorts who are pathetic. The LibDems held a line in parliament (the BIG one that deals with the defence of all in the UK) regarding the invasion of Iraq that has been consistent and honourable throughout.

Your rant is unsubstantiated as is usual from the Nats - I suspect its just because Nicol Stephen said before the 2007 election that there will be no talks unless the impossible to deliver question on an independence NEVERENDUM was removed. It wasn't so no talks - again an indication of an honourable man whereas Salmond and cronies blow with the wind currently in their sails. That won't last for much longer as more people realise promises and pledges don't stack up in delivery terms.
81

Miss H,

21/03/2008 13:48:14
86 No it;s you that's pathetic. You used to have a UK leader with some backbone, even if he liked the odd drink. He was not afraid to speak his mind on Iraq or any other issue. Since then I am afraid the Lib Dems have simply faded away and no-one really knows what you stand for any more.
82

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 13:48:57
84

They could be ordered to boo by the MOD.
83

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 21/03/2008 13:55:29
he has stepped over the line, the armed forces are apolitical. They are not allowed to be used to make political points.

What about his refusal to condemn an Iranian regime helping kill Scottish soldiers.
84

long live the supermarkets,

21/03/2008 13:56:09
Who should have been the clear winners of this war, the Iraqis, if anything we were told before the invasion was true, are actually by far the greatest losers. Last week they lost another 247 civilian lives, 14 of which were children’s.

The other clear losers are the young men and women, over 4,000 of them, our soldiers, mainly American and British, who have so far lost their lives. Those young men and women who joined their country’s armed forces intending to be brave, to protect, to save, to sacrifice their lives for the good of their nation and its civilians –their parents, children, friends, neighbours. Those men and women have instead died the death of the dishonourable, as they have been sacrificed for a dishonourable cause. They have been used and betrayed by those who would have never sacrificed anything of their own. They have been used and abused by the winners of this war.

Who are those winners?

George W. Bush and Tony Blair/Brown are the obvious winners. Not only do they seem to have escaped any punishment after their lies, deception, crimes against peace and possibly war crimes that continue to this day, but they also managed to get re-elected after invading and destroying another country, and after killing thousands of civilians. As soon as their deception regarding Iraq’s threat was exposed, they both very cleverly redefined the war as an expression of western values: freedom, democracy, equality. And their flattery worked: enough of us believed that we, noble, liberal, civilised and moral westerners were on a wonderful mission (with our leader being the courageous moral driving force) to save an oppressed population living in fear and crying out for help. Our help. We believed, because we wanted to believe, in our intrinsic goodness and in the good intentions of our leaders. Through us, their victory was won, and through us they continue to be victorious.

The other winners are the extremists. Those who kill civilians in Iraq on a dail
85

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 21/03/2008 13:56:45
#87 - you are wrong if you think we have faded away. Yes the coverage given by the popular press to our contributions to the debate are sparse but then thats nothing new to us LibDems. The captain of the ship might change from time to time but the vessel is in very good shape with a fine crew and a lot of sensible cargo on board. If you want me to send you a PROPERLY costed manifesto then I'm happy to oblige? Or are you too blinkered to explore what might be outside of your chosesn category?
86

long live the supermarkets,

continued 21/03/2008 14:00:06


The other winners are the extremists. Those who kill civilians in Iraq on a daily basis. Those who torture and shoot women who wear no headscarves, the women who are vain enough to wear make-up, who want to send their daughters to school. Those who blow up people in markets, who shoot innocents outside bakeries, inside schools, as they drive their cars… Those who abduct, torture and murder even children, and leave their bodies scattered in streets, fields, dumps, as though they were rubbish. The fanatics, the murderers, the terrorists, they have established a foothold in Iraq, they have now become what Iraq is famous for. What no country ever wants to be famous for.

Anyone who has become rich, even richer, or more powerful as a result of this war is also a winner. American and British firms and companies, ‘the money men’, as Raymond Whitaker and Stephen Foley refer to them (The Independent, 16 March).

And we, the British and American public? What have we won? What have we lost? We have actually won nothing, not even our security. And we have lost something too: a little of our self-respect. A little of our conviction in our virtue, in our values and in our role as the defenders of all that is good and fair.
87

www.r-o-a-r.org,

Dundee 21/03/2008 14:08:26
#86

Quote: "-its Salmond and his cohorts who are pathetic. The LibDems held a line in parliament (the BIG one that deals with the defence of all in the UK) regarding the invasion of Iraq that has been consistent and honourable throughout. "

That rally speaks volumes about a Lib dem supporter - you and your wee defeated party (through UK at last elections) dont believe in Scotland - yet are happy to partner with the most corrupt government in modern times for a taste of power - something I doubt you will EVER see again.

Sandal wearing bleedin hearted liberals make most Scots want to vomit as they put forward their wishy-washy half-measured fantasy plans that everyone knows will never see the light of day as they can never form a government on their own.

Fact is Liberals have backed Labour in not banning guns, closing down post offices and saving the crooked necks of Blair on numerous occasions.

I would have thought being a liberal was akin to being a criminal (something you would keep to yourself and not shout out to the recent of the decent members of society).

Back on your belly and pray to London!
88

democracy,

Scottish Borders 21/03/2008 14:08:43
Browne and Foulkes are a couple of ignorant useless Unionists, and as far as that ignorant little part timer Browne is concerned, are we to believe that he is so thoroughly naive that he thinks what our boys are telling him, is the truth. Listen up Browne, if, what YOU say is true, the Scottish soldiers are only telling you what the army knows you want to hear, you total numpty, they won't tell you what they are actually thinking, as they are intelligent Scottish soldiers, unlike YOU, you total numpty!!
89

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 21/03/2008 14:14:08
#94

Oh grow up the armed forces are not shy of telling the truth when they are presented with a chance to meither a senior officer or a minister. The feedback is true.
90

www.r-o-a-r.org,

Dundee 21/03/2008 14:18:15
#95

You are clearly deluded - do you actually know any Scottish soldiers?

I do - and have met hundreds of them in the past 5 years - they face being chastised and loss of promotion if the dare to speak out to a government minister.

Your blabberings make a mockery of yourself.
91

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 14:23:09
89

Are you serious?? they are out in Iraq and Afganistan right now following New Labour party political foreign policy.

Maybe when somebody actually presents a shred of evidence showing Iran killing Scottish soldiers he may have to.
92

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 21/03/2008 14:24:10
#96

I work with them frequentely and in line with all members of the armed forces they are free to say whatever they want. Officers are not even present when ministers meet with the lads.
93

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 21/03/2008 14:26:34
Iranian shaped charges have been responsible for the deaths of numerous soldiers. You do not make these things in your garage. Obviously like fat boy you prefer Tehran to London thats up to you but the majority! of Scos do not.
94

www.r-o-a-r.org,

Dundee 21/03/2008 14:38:48
#98

AND WHAT LINE OF WORK DO YOU ALLEGELDLY DO THEN??
Write propoganda for Edinburgh Castle for the cowardly colonels who deserted their men back in 2005/06 by any chance?

Lying sack of liberal nonsense. Take a look at any video footage or photo and you will see a superior watch over each and every handshake.

Are you sure you have not been to the Labour School of Spin?

A poll in the run-up to last year's Holyrood election found that two thirds of Scots favoured an immediate withdrawal from Iraq.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6536049.stm

Also, a more recent poll shows two-thirds of forces families think we should leave now also.

So stick that in your fantasy machine and spin it around.

95

The Scone 1,

Scone 21/03/2008 14:41:11
Still at it I see. Cannae leave it along eh?
96

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 21/03/2008 14:42:03
I cannot ay as I should not be posting but lets just say I have Herrick and telic medals and a damm sight better idea how the system works than a bunch of left wing civvies.
97

Queen D,

Glasgow 21/03/2008 14:43:57
Long live the supermarkets, eloquently put sir or madam.
Pity some poor deluded soul split your post.
As for freedom of speech , is Mr Browne not currently trying to silence yet another faction who might just speak out against him and his department ?
Ordinary soldiers are not allowed to speak out , retired generals can but by then it is too late.
Generals in the army should be speaking out now on behalf of the troops.
We have destroyed a country and its people .
98

www.r-o-a-r.org,

Dundee 21/03/2008 14:44:08
#102

Liar
99

Geomac 1,

Kinross 21/03/2008 14:44:50
This conceited and arrogant man Salmond is becoming an embarrasing liability to Scots. He most certainly does NOT speak for me.
It's time he and his cronies got on with the job of government instead of strutting the world stage and seeking our isues with which to generate a scrap with the UK government.
His SNP policies tend to be half baked and ill thought out - more time on these Alex!
100

Geomac 1,

Kinross 21/03/2008 14:46:34
One further thought - don't people join the forces in order to do their duty for the country and for which they are paid - if each soldier were to decide what war he was to participate in and what ones not to, anarchy would rule!!
101

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 14:48:17
99

Weapons and explosives sold by the US and the UK are responsible for the most of the deaths in wars all over the world. The US and UK arms dealers even sell their weapons and technology to the Iranians as they did to the Iraqis now do you want to tell us again who is responsible for the shape charges???
102

www.r-o-a-r.org,

Dundee 21/03/2008 14:51:06
105/106

Being sent into a war that was never about defending the UK nor for any other good reason has seen hundreds of soldiers (including many Scottish) blown up to little bits.

Now whilst you might not care about that - a lot of us do. Soldiers cannot speak up for themselves and the only option they have is to leave or go AWOL (something a fair few have done).

It is better to speak out against something that is fundamentally wrong than to bury your head in the comfort of safety and selfishness.

Many soldiers and their families have expressed their gratitude for the involvement of the First Minister and the SNP - who without the lying Labour government would walk even further over the armed forces.

Perhaps you should not take your safety for granted at the expense of young men's lives.
103

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 21/03/2008 14:55:41
#104

How dare you? I am not lieing just because you dont like what you hear. Left wing civvy numpty.

#107
Yes the Iranians the explosive has been traced abd unexploded ones still have the bloddy numbers on.

104

John S,

21/03/2008 14:57:23
Telegraph - 19/03/2008- Des Browne, the Defence Secretary, has gone to the High Court in an attempt to prevent coroners criticising the Ministry of Defence at military inquests.This brought a furious reaction from families of troops killed on the front line.
Mr Browne wants coroners to stop accusing the MoD of "serious failings" when recording verdicts on military deaths.
105

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 14:57:25
109

Traced by who?? and identified by who???
106

The Scone 1,

Scone 21/03/2008 14:57:51
See yer still winding folk up # 108. Give it a rest will ye?
107

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 21/03/2008 15:00:15
#111

Army engineers and police forensic scientists.
108

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 15:00:25
109

Did you know that the CIA supplied the Mujahadeen with shape charges to use against the Russians?? thats the same Mujahadeen who later became Al Quaeda under CIA funding and training. Now lets try again who is responsible for the shape charges???
109

www.r-o-a-r.org,

21/03/2008 15:00:58
#109

The Liar doth protest too much!
110

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 15:01:06
113

Working for who???
111

www.r-o-a-r.org,

Dundee 21/03/2008 15:05:33
#112 - What's wrong dont you like robust debate? or is it not a response(s) to your flavour perhaps?
112

Guga II,

Rockall 21/03/2008 15:06:07
Typical unionist political drivel and distortions by the Hootsmon. If they are so convinced that Scottish troops support the illegal war in Iraq, why don't they send an independent reporter out there to question the troops? And I don't mean one of their own political hacks.

Incidentally, #99 as to the shaped charges that have been found, and allegedly come from Iran, why are the makers marks in Arabic and not in Farsi? Do you believe all the lies and propaganda that comes out of the Americans mouths? I suppose you ran for cover when Bliar told you that the Iraqi WMD could hit us in 45 minutes?

Bush, Bliar, Broon and Browne, as well as their respective cabinets, are war criminals, plain and simple. They invaded a country which had not threatened them, or their countries (other than in their own devious minds), they have murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, they have displaced millions of civilians, they have kidnapped, tortured and murdered people. They are war crimials who have perpetrated these acts to gain control of oil.
113

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 21/03/2008 15:08:07
#116
7th armoured brigade.

#115

I dont really care what a small inded dundonian civvy thinks anyway.
114

shivago8,

livingston 21/03/2008 15:10:36
I had a letter delivered today from Alex Salmond telling me that he is still actively engaged in getting our Regiments back.
He is trying to resore the damage that this awful New Labour party done to our Scottish regiments.
It is not a lie or me trumping up a story on what the regiments are like today.
I could say read the papers and people will say dont believe everything that you read in the press,but what I will say is that I have seen it at first hand,I have recently been amongst them,I have sat and listened to Generals near in tears about the awful state that the bungling MOD and the penny pinching New labour have reduced our armed forces to
They are massively understrength,moral at rock bottom,spirit knocked out of them,ill equiped and on and on.
When did you last see a good story in the media about the troops.
The present saga with the Gurkhas is Scotlands disgrace.
All the persuading with extra money has no effect,the jocks are using their feet and exiting in droves.
If Alex Salmon is trying to bring our armed forces back to some sort of reality and I know for a fact that he is,then he should be applauded.
He has changed many things in the short space of time that he has been in and we all have benefited in one or the other.
He is JOCK,fighting for the JOCKS,wanting to sort out the damage that McConnell and bendy Wendy have done to our country.
He is making Scotland a better place to live in,which is true and anybody who does not agree with that statement is not a Jock and should leave the country.
I get the impression that all the dissenters are labour and still not happy that they are in opposition and led by a woman who is going nowhere and quite honestly should be looking out her best dress for her impending court case
115

Dr Malcolm H Sutcliffe PhD Physics,

21/03/2008 15:13:17
This ridiculous story and the similar story in the Telegraph are there to distract attention from 2 clear facts.1 is that the purpose of invading Iraq was to rid Iraq of WMDs which didn't exist and haven't been found 5 years later. 2. That the invasion was not specifically authorized by the UN security council which means the invasion was not legal.
As far as the telegraph article is concerned I would refer the editors to the fate of C Black who is now serving a six year prison sentence. The felon (once Lord Black) and former Daily Telegraph press baron apparently still thinks it is acceptable to allow blatant war criminal propaganda and lies to be printed in newspapers and is explaining this to fellow prisoners.I would warn all media hacks ie editors journalists TV commentators etc to be a little careful in regard to talking up wars in future. For example last year on February 24 Matt Frei on the BBC 10 PM news claimed America and with the support of the UK would be engaging in another illegal act by attacking Iraq and had a list of so called targets.It was obvious war propaganda straight from the pentagon The WTJers ie war talk jibberers were full of themselves predicting war against Iran by easter.ie mean Easter 2007 by the way! This AWPish behaviour ie awful war propaganda was the first sign of spring ie a bit cuckoo but now the BBC even the world service is now virtually incapable of even discussing such goulish sick and sad ideas that have proved false again and again and again. Let me remind media hacks about the conviction of the muslim man for carrying a poster calling for the bombing of America. If any of you carry any such jibberish again about trying to justify the bombing of Iran or any other law abiding country. You may find you share the fate of your possible former boss ie Conrad Black. The people of England and Scotland don't want to hear any of your broken biscuit war propangnda. Why not instead use some more positive words like PEACE.AS far as
116

Dr Malcolm H Sutcliffe PhD Physics,

21/03/2008 15:17:21
This ridiculous story and the similar story in the Telegraph are there to distract attention from 2 clear facts.1 is that the purpose of invading Iraq was to rid Iraq of WMDs which didn't exist and haven't been found 5 years later. 2. That the invasion was not specifically authorized by the UN security council which means the invasion was not legal.
As far as the telegraph article is concerned I would refer the editors to the fate of C Black who is now serving a six year prison sentence. The felon (once Lord Black) and former Daily Telegraph press baron apparently still thinks it is acceptable to allow blatant war criminal propaganda and lies to be printed in newspapers and is explaining this to fellow prisoners.I would warn all media hacks ie editors journalists TV commentators etc to be a little careful in regard to talking up wars in future. For example last year on February 24 Matt Frei on the BBC 10 PM news claimed America and with the support of the UK would be engaging in another illegal act by attacking Iraq and had a list of so called targets.It was obvious war propaganda straight from the pentagon The WTJers ie war talk jibberers were full of themselves predicting war against Iran by easter.I mean Easter 2007 by the way! This AWPish behaviour ie awful war propaganda was the first sign of spring ie a bit cuckoo but now the BBC even the world service is now virtually incapable of even discussing such goulish sick and sad ideas that have proved false again and again and again. Let me remind media hacks about the conviction of the muslim man for carrying a poster calling for the bombing of America. If any of you carry any such jibberish again about trying to justify the bombing of Iran or any other law abiding country,you may find you share the fate of your possible former boss ie Conrad Black. The people of England and Scotland don't want to hear any of your broken biscuit war propaganda. Why not instead use some more positive words like PEACE.AS far as th
117

Dr Malcolm H Sutcliffe PhD Physics,

21/03/2008 15:18:23

As far as the telegraph article is concerned I would refer the editors to the fate of C Black who is now serving a six year prison sentence. The felon (once Lord Black) and former Daily Telegraph press baron apparently still thinks it is acceptable to allow blatant war criminal propaganda and lies to be printed in newspapers and is explaining this to fellow prisoners.I would warn all media hacks ie editors journalists TV commentators etc to be a little careful in regard to talking up wars in future. For example last year on February 24 Matt Frei on the BBC 10 PM news claimed America and with the support of the UK would be engaging in another illegal act by attacking Iraq and had a list of so called targets.It was obvious war propaganda straight from the pentagon The WTJers ie war talk jibberers were full of themselves predicting war against Iran by easter.I mean Easter 2007 by the way! This AWPish behaviour ie awful war propaganda was the first sign of spring ie a bit cuckoo but now the BBC even the world service is now virtually incapable of even discussing such goulish sick and sad ideas that have proved false again and again and again. Let me remind media hacks about the conviction of the muslim man for carrying a poster calling for the bombing of America. If any of you carry any such jibberish again about trying to justify the bombing of Iran or any other law abiding country,you may find you share the fate of your possible former boss ie Conrad Black. The people of England and Scotland don't want to hear any of your broken biscuit war propaganda. Why not instead use some more positive words like PEACE.AS far as these ridiculous attacks on Alex Salmond are concerned I say history will judge,but my sense is that Alex Salmond will successfully lead Scotland to independence and Blair will be convicted of war crimes. Let us see.
118

Dr Malcolm H Sutcliffe PhD Physics,

21/03/2008 15:25:24
Corrected Version I am not too good on websites
As far as the telegraph article is concerned I would refer the editors to the fate of C Black who is now serving a six year prison sentence. The felon (once Lord Black) and former Daily Telegraph press baron apparently still thinks it is acceptable to allow blatant war criminal propaganda and lies to be printed in newspapers and is explaining this to fellow prisoners.I would warn all media hacks ie editors journalists TV commentators etc to be a little careful in regard to talking up wars in future. For example last year on February 24 Matt Frei on the BBC 10 PM news claimed America and with the support of the UK would be engaging in another illegal act by attacking Iran and had a list of so called targets.It was obvious war propaganda straight from the pentagon The WTJers ie war talk jibberers were full of themselves predicting war against Iran by easter.I mean Easter 2007 by the way! This AWPish behaviour ie awful war propaganda was the first sign of spring ie a bit cuckoo but now the BBC even the world service is now virtually incapable of even discussing such goulish sick and sad ideas that have proved false again and again and again. Let me remind media hacks about the conviction of the muslim man for carrying a poster calling for the bombing of America. If any of you carry any such jibberish again about trying to justify the bombing of Iran or any other law abiding country,you may find you share the fate of your possible former boss ie Conrad Black. The people of England and Scotland don't want to hear any of your broken biscuit war propaganda. Why not instead use some more positive words like PEACE.AS far as these ridiculous attacks on Alex Salmond are concerned I say history will judge,but my sense is that Alex Salmond will successfully lead Scotland to independence and Blair will be convicted of war crimes. Let us see.
119

www.r-o-a-r.org,

Dundee 21/03/2008 15:27:04
#119

Its not only what a 5yr campaigning Dundonian (who served in the RAF) btw - but the vast majority of Scots and serving personnel and families feel.

It is you my friend who are completely out of touch and I suspect you are not who/what you pertain to be.

BTW: Civilians should not be held ion such disdain by you or any other member of the forces.
120

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 21/03/2008 15:29:24
#125

Ah 5 years as a cuvil mservant in uniform, thta explains a lot. Also we do not hold civvies in disdain until yjey try tell us how to do our jobs or spit at us fro doing them.
121

www.r-o-a-r.org,

21/03/2008 15:41:06
#126

QUOTE: "Ah 5 years as a cuvil mservant in uniform, thta explains a lot."

Errmm and you point? - if you have one!

Your lies are so transparent - you are so out of touch with the rest of the Scottish public and serving personnel.
122

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 21/03/2008 15:48:38
#127

I am not lieing though, the armed forces will not allow ourselves to be used by the fat seperatist to divide the country.
123

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 21/03/2008 15:48:39
#127

I am not lieing though, the armed forces will not allow ourselves to be used by the fat seperatist to divide the country.
124

www.r-o-a-r.org,

Dundee 21/03/2008 15:58:46
Perhaps you should realise that their is no country called the UK - never was (assuming that is what you are referring to).

The UK is a political convenience and not a very successful one at that. Most Scots do not see themselves as British they are Scottish.

Scotland is the country of Scots! As is Wales for the Welsh and Ireland for the Irish.

It's not rocket science ;-)
125

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 21/03/2008 16:02:57
#130

In thta case it should be asy to persuade 50% of the country nto vote for i ndependence and bobs you uncle but its not is it?
126

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 16:09:51
119

Forensic police forces working for the 7th Armoured brigade??? whats their cap badge a bull taking a sh*t???
127

subrosa,

21/03/2008 16:13:04
# 128 & 129

You're certainly not speaking for me or others in the forces. Go take your unionist views elsewhere and stop thinking you represent the Scots in the UK army - because you certainly do not.


128

www.r-o-a-r.org,

21/03/2008 16:13:18
#131

Aye I think it will be a matter of another 4 yr SNP administration - which should be fairly easy given that the SNP are miles ahead in the polls.

Despite the English run media fae London using every scare tactic and lie - I believe Scotland will vote for its Independence.

Shame the Fib Dems are doing so badly in the polls. Is that because people realise how pathetic and weak they are perhaps?
129

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 21/03/2008 16:14:07
#132

7th armoured were the command mechanism, the RLC supply the military police. The facts are simple Iranians help kill Scottish soldiers and Salmond says nothing.
130

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 16:17:38
135

Since when has the Military Police had a forensics team attached to it??? they are no actually a police force you know.
131

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 21/03/2008 16:21:21
#136

How do you think we do crime scene work. We cannot exactly fly in the Met.
132

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 16:24:26
137

Oh I see we're back to the cap badge again.
133

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 21/03/2008 16:28:38
#138

You just dont want to face facts Iran ian munitions kill scots salmond says nothing.
134

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 16:32:11
139

Well why dont you present a fact and we will put it to the test.
135

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 21/03/2008 16:37:19
#140

it has been widely reported and there is a US national intelligence estimate. UK intelligence reports are not released to protect human assets. The Iranians are supplying the shiite militias.
136

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 16:41:11
141

So the people who are looking desperately for an excuse to invade Iran are forming intelligence reports in order to provide that excuse does that no look familiar to you???

That looks like a suspicion and not a fact try again.
137

Lady Muck,

21/03/2008 16:43:01
In a rare act of common sense Salmond says what everybody else thinks. I can't stand him or the SNP but on this as on Kosova he is 100 % in fact 200 % correct. We have no busiess in that country it is a fiasco just as we had no business being in Kosova which is going to turn into a bloodbath before too long. Anyone who attacks Salmond on this issue is a fool born of fools who should be sterilised in case they bring life to a fool.
138

Lady Muck,

21/03/2008 16:45:02
What moron believes anything that ''intelligence'' provides ? These are the same goddamned liars who faked the dodgy dossier. Philby Burgess and Mclean were fecking amateurs when it comes to undermning the security service. Blair has debased them for all time. He should be shot.
139

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 21/03/2008 16:46:22
The facts are their ask the guys on the ground. remember these are tha same Iranians that kidnapped 15 RN/RM personnel from international waters.
140

Lady Muck,

21/03/2008 16:47:36
Yes meaning that their sailors are smarter than ours you idiot
141

Lady Muck,

21/03/2008 16:48:23
The Iraqis and the Iranians if attacked will fight us to the last man or woman standing, just like in Afghanistan. Moron.
142

www.r-o-a-r.org,

Dundee 21/03/2008 16:50:57
I like Lady Muck!!! :-)
143

Lady Muck,

21/03/2008 16:54:28
The ''British'' on that occasion were pathetic a disgrace to their country. Now - do you think that Gordon Brown can achieve what Alexander the Great could not ? I will give you time to think about it.
144

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 16:55:58
145

Still waiting for you to produce a fact.
145

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 21/03/2008 16:56:52
#149

No it was not. It has been conclusively proven to have been International waters.
146

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 16:57:48
152

No it hasnt its still in dispute. Neither side has conclusive evidence to present.
147

Lady Muck,

21/03/2008 16:59:16
and the iranians won
148

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 21/03/2008 17:01:18
I have seen the WECDIS feed fro HMS Cornwall they were in International waters.
149

Lady Muck,

21/03/2008 17:02:56
have you not just broken your contract of employment with your silly showing off ?
150

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 17:08:11
157

Really and what was the calibration date on the equipment used??
151

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 17:33:58
161

So the UK claims the incident actually happened on land??
152

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 17:49:02
163

Yep thats obvious and so is the transparent build up of excuses and intelligence reports regarding the need to deal with Iran its the same pattern all over again.
153

Iain's,

Barcelona 21/03/2008 17:55:48
I'm glad I left to live here.

How can you pillory and attack someone for just telling the TRUTH?

154

Lovepan,

England 21/03/2008 17:59:02
The dissolution of the regiments is an argument that should be left to die.

It was not just Scottish regiments that were amalgamted - so too were many English, Welsh and Northern Irish. Ever heard of the Green Howards? They were the oldest regiment in the British Army. Now gone, but you don't hear Yorkshiremen using it as a reason to bash the UK.

In my platoon, I serve with 3 Scots, 1 Welsh, 1 Irish and an Iraqi, who is here for training.

Our padre was with the Royal Marines as they crossed the border into Iraq in 2003. Sensing the mood, his words were "history will judge us".

Iraq is a difficult issue, but I can say this for certain -
all my pals in the army can't wait to get back out on the ground in Afghanistan, no matter which part of the UK they are from.
155

,

21/03/2008 18:02:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
156

Lady Muck,

21/03/2008 18:10:40
166 you will die you fool you can't take Afghanistan the Soviets held Stalingrad but they could not take Afghanistan. Moron.
157

shivago8,

livingston 21/03/2008 18:11:43
48,72 Gundy
Dont know what medicine you are on,as it is not working.
Or are you posting in the name of Gordon Broon.The man everybody has loved to hate.
158

,

21/03/2008 18:18:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
159

Lady Muck,

21/03/2008 18:53:07
Genghis Khan won briefly. The people in Afghanistan are not a country as the Scots know it. They are tribal. They will only gather together when attacked. At the moment the factions in Iraq are fighting each other because they are playing off the UK and US forces against each other but they too will gather together. Add to that the potential for an attack on Iran and that way lies madness. We cannot win in these countries and there is no purpose in being there. We shall just have to buy our oil at the marketr prices. We can afford it.
160

HEN BROON 5,

21/03/2008 20:52:15
166
Lovepan,
England 21/03/2008 17:59:02


Sorry to burst your bubble old bean but the Jocks were there first again.

1633 - The Royal Regiment of Foot (later the Royal Scots) is placed on the Scottish Establishment, later becoming the oldest infantry regiment in continuous service in the British Army.

The Green Howards regiment was raised by Colonel Francis Luttrell at Dunster Castle, Somerset, in November 1688, for service under William, Prince of Orange, following his landing at Torbay on 5th of November 1688.


ALBA GU BRATH.

161

unbiased,

Nairn 21/03/2008 20:55:56
I have already posted this on the Herald site - just want you all to listen to this.......
Have a look at this link, it is as relevant today in Iraq as it was in Gallipolli in 1915 - the most poignant lyric is "I didn't know there was worse things than dying......" Listen to it all the way through........ www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlYynHmE8b0
162

Nikostratos,

21/03/2008 21:24:57

US Soldier throws puppy off cliff


http://my.break.com/content/view.aspx?ContentID=463231
163

Nikostratos,

21/03/2008 21:24:58

US Soldier throws puppy off cliff


http://my.break.com/content/view.aspx?ContentID=463231
164

,

21/03/2008 21:45:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
165

McGinty,

21/03/2008 21:50:33
Salmond get a grip, ignore these scumbags and zip it, they probably don't believe we should be there either. Save your energies for when real opposition starts and don't undermine yourself by this kind of crap. This kind of opportunism and pointscoring is fine in opposition, but right now even McConnell showed more statesmanlike qualities than this, in fact so do most senior politicians. This is more the kind of behaviour one associates with John Prescott.
166

Lady Muck,

21/03/2008 22:00:45
You are an idiot Mcginty this is precisely the sort of thing that a statesman does. I don't like Salmond but on this he is the voice of reason. You think it shouldn't be heard ?
167

unbiased,

Nairn 21/03/2008 22:45:47
Nikostratos - I used to value your comments when you put forward intelligent comments against the current government (of which I am a supporter) - but what is this about
US Soldier throws puppy off cliff? Come on grow up!!!!!!!!!
168

unbiased,

Nairn 21/03/2008 22:50:02
Sorry, I have just looked at the footage - sick b**tards - just the same as the one that shot Terry Lloyd in the head!
169

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA........Hillary for Pres....Barack Hus 21/03/2008 23:02:33
ALEX Salmond, the First Minister, last night defended his claim that Scottish troops were against the Iraq war.
-----------------------------------------------------

Hey Dudes ,
The above comment by Ur leader AS proves he is a political novice.

Whether he is right or wrong matters not . Its the perception than counts in politics.

And if he has 2 brain cells working in his head, he should have known that his comment, would or will deflate the moral of troops from Scotland.

These troops are trained to take orders ..PERIOD.

Not to think about the order. And the real soldier understands that.

Real soldiers have no time for politicians, they have a job to do that is to : 'Kill or be Killed "

And these spineless politicians, will never understand that, except for the very few who were soldiers .

GC
170

unbiased,

Nairn 21/03/2008 23:08:04
FA Galactic - go back to sleep - what do you know about Scotland, other than a pub crawl on an occasion that you happened to visit - what do you know about politics, social deprivation, social pride, traditionalism, etc? FO - you really get up my nose you troll - you think you know about shrooms - you hae nae idea what grows in the woods here - you shlong (to use one of your compatriots terms when they are trying to sell me pharmaceuticals to make my d**** grow - when I have never been in a Gents toilet in my life and would not know what to do with one of these giant penises if I had one- you DICK
171

Stepford Nat,

21/03/2008 23:41:54
Alex is right, Des is rubbish, puppy was nice
172

Fanling,

Taiwan 22/03/2008 00:16:46
#184 unbiased, Nairn

Your riposte to the perma-indignant phoney armchair revolutionary dude-spouting to$$er #183 is worthy, but ultimately a waste of your valuable time. You will be aware that his interminably mind-numbing cut-and-paste personal insult jobs litter these boards like the bad smell of his self-described yellow-turd veganism. Your opening rhetorical question sums he/she/it up, really.
173

The Scone 1,

Scone 22/03/2008 15:00:09
ROAR said - "Scone1 (aka useless ASBOshover)

Interesting PUBLIC posts on your job wie Dundee City Council. Wonder if your bosses would like to know you call them spineless?"

Ha, ha you are getting me mixed up with someone else that lives in Scone and works for that organisation. Whats with the comment of ASBOshover? I dont deal with such drivel. Spineless? I cannot see that on any open posts. Remember the Website board rules and abide by them, this includes the rules that you and your colleagues @ ROAR chose to ignore. Those rules were made up for what you as the administrator, if it is you or on behalf of a certain battalion. EDHID.

Please ensure that you get the right person that you are refering too pal.
174

www.r-o-a-r.org,

22/03/2008 16:01:51
Oh dear - the post on FTFT entitled LOSS OF JOB!

I think you know its you ;-)

Worried?
175

The Scone 1,

Scone 22/03/2008 16:18:20
Ah, now I know who you are on about. Still have it in for that person I see. Its not who you think it is.

Look, knowing the person you refer to well, I know that they wont be worried. I have read the refered posts on the FTFT, nothing said there which that person would not have kept from their bosses anyway. Always one for speaking their mind, I recall. If you claim to know this person, you,ll also know that they do not hide anything, especially if anything that they say would get them into hot water.

I am sure that Alex Salmond would be interested in the other UK parties that you have supported in the past. Didn,t you once say that you were not intetrested in politics? Were you not a member of the RAF at one stage in your life?

176

www.r-o-a-r.org,

22/03/2008 16:47:07
"Aye cheers m8. Normally the big bosses are in here when I arrive here every Thurs night. Funny for the first time in 2 years - there is nae site of them. Nae moral courage m8."
177

www.r-o-a-r.org,

22/03/2008 16:59:55
talk about the pot calling the kettle black!!
178

Kenny A,

25/03/2008 08:49:25
183 GC

Sad to say while I agreed with a fair bit of what you said (or is it U my human chomping mushroom addicted friend), I take issue on the soldiers just obeying orders part, good soldiers use their brains, make independent decisions and then slowly evolve into RSM's if they are that good. The old just obey orders at least in the british Army dont cut the Mustard if you get it wrong and kill someone you should not.

Understand the US is a great believer in overwheleming firepower and that has it place. So also does the UK style of softly, softly and if that dont work send in the Jocks, Geordies or Gurka. That kind of works most times.

To correct a misconception good soldiers are smart, know what the can and cannot do and take great pride in their proffession.

Americans respect their soldiers a lot more that the British by the way.

 

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