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Alex Salmond: Scotland 'didn't mind' Thatcher economics

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Published Date: 21 August 2008
ALEX Salmond has said Scotland "didn't mind the economic side" to Margaret Thatcher, but disapproved of the "social" implications of her policies.
In a revealing interview with Total Politics magazine, the First Minister said many businesses had "warmed to the SNP" after he had strived to bring his party "into the mainstream of Scotland".

Mr Salmond also accused David Cameron's Conservative
s of being anti-Scottish, dismissing all speculation that the party had talks to form a coalition with the Tories after the next Westminster election.

In remarks that will fuel criticism that the SNP has adopted a free-market, tax-cutting agenda more in tune with the Thatcher legacy, Mr Salmond said: "The SNP has a strong social conscience, which is very Scottish in itself.

"One of the reasons Scotland didn't take to Lady Thatcher was because of that. We didn't mind the economic side so much. But we didn't like the social side at all."

The remarks could prove risky for the SNP, as the party used the image of Lady Thatcher and her perceived closeness to Gordon Brown in anti-Labour pamphlets for the Glasgow East by-election.

There has been speculation that the SNP had been in talks to prop up the Tories after the next election at Westmintser, but Mr Salmond said there was no chance at all of the two parties going into coalition in London.

However he confirmed that a hung parliament would be the best result at the next general election.

Asked whether he could "do business" with Mr Cameron, Mr Salmond replied: "The Tories have been more constructive than other opposition parties in the Scottish Parliament but I don't think you have to scratch very hard to see real anti-Scottish antagonism from many elements of the Conservative Party. I don't think the leopard has changed its spots."

He added that the "wrapping has changed somewhat" but "I think the leopard is still there".

Speaking to Tory blogger Iain Dale, Mr Salmond also revealed that the first time his own father had heard him speak in a parliamentary chmaber was during his first address as First Minister.

"He didn't really approve of me setting foot in the House of Commons. It was a hell of a moment."

Mr Salmond said he did not "do daunted" but admitted the Glasgow airport attack had left him a "bit daunted".

He had been watching TV with Sean Connery when the news came in.

The First Minister had even changed the name of the Emergency Room – the room meant to deal with such national crises – to the Resilience Room.

"It's very difficult to be calm in a room with a bloody big notice that says "emergency"!"

In a remark that will amuse if not surprise, political observers, Mr Salmond admitted he was "not short of confidence".

The last time he had apologised was when he had to tell his wife Moira that he may have to ask her to "unbook" their summer holiday.

But he added: "When you're First Minister, you probably don't find it wise to own up to mistake after mistake."

While Mr Salmond has had more contact with Gordon Brown than with his predecessor Tony Blair, the pair had irreconcialable differences.

"You wouldn't expect us to be bosom buddies, walking arm in arm to the pub for a wee snifter...

"I believe in independence for Scotland, clearly the Prime Minister doesn't. No amount of rapprochement will bring us together on that issue. And that applies to a range of other issues too."

Apart from pursuing policies that would make Scotland more competitive, the Scottish Government will be "attacking" the binge drinking culture "which is an even bigger problem than it is in England", he said.

"This is difficult because we are tilting against vested interests, the power of which you would not believe."

Mr Salmond was also unapologetic about the treatment of Wendy Alexander, the former leader of the Labour group in the Scottish Parliament.

"Nobody has accused me of wanting to get rid of her. I have said nothing about her troubles. This idea that I was chasing and harrying her...I must be the most restrained politician of all time."



The full article contains 706 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 21 August 2008 10:07 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish National Party
 
1

danbob,

21/08/2008 10:27:06
Come on Alex you must know that Thatcher politics and a so called social concience are totaly at odds with each other. This just smacks of sitting on the fence so you don,t upset voters. Myself I would have much more confidence in him if he did adopt a more Conservative approach. Browns spend, spend, spend approach has disaster written all over it.
2

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/08/2008 10:33:30
I don't see how it is possible to separate entirely the economic from the social. Economies are inherently entwined with taxation/expenditure and social policies are inherently entwined with govt.expenditure.
3

Soutar's pocket,

Edinburgh 21/08/2008 10:33:41
I wonder if his father approved of his wife, Moira, probably as they are of a similar age!
4

Alastair the First,

21/08/2008 10:36:17
Frankly the headline to this article is extremely misleading. The main thrust of what Alex Salmond said (as quoted in full in the article) is that Scots didn't like the social impacts of Thatcher - the Scotsman has seized on the subordinate phrase and projected it as the main point, which it clearly is not.
5

dido-bendigo,

Scotland 21/08/2008 10:51:16
It's not the "owning up to mistake after mistake" that we want from you First Minister, it's your showing us "success after success"! We can all see your mistakes quite easily! That is, all but those more rabid SNP supporters who suffer from 'three monkeys syndrome'! No doubt they will flock to own up to 'success after success', after this comment!
6

,

21/08/2008 11:13:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
7

Calum10,

21/08/2008 11:26:33
Mafe up story by the Hootsmon.
8

AJ Fife,

21/08/2008 11:31:35
#9,

Very well put and most of Scotland will agree with you!

A similar end for Blair will be in order too!
9

Alan B,

21/08/2008 11:32:53
#Ugly George

To an extent I agree with you. Although you could argue that something like the poll tax was a social policy not an economic policy. You could add resistence to scottish parliament despite support in scotland for it. Even the 79 referendum on a scottish assembly was only blocked due to undemocratic means.

For me with Thatcher there were a few things:
1)to a large extent she was an english nationalist and as such scotland came a distant second in her priorities and that has a diffect effect on the implication of policy.
2)much of the implication of policy was poor although the actually ideological underpinning was correct.
3)she was unfairly blamed for in many way being the messenger of the dreadful state of the uk economy she inheritied from labour. ie 25% inflation, a failed incomes policy, winter of discontent, barmy unionisation of the work force, overmanned industry, uncompetitive industry. Having to go the imf for emergency bannana republic type loans when labour had effectively bankrupted the uk economy.
4)her anti european views was not good for britain
5)to a large extent we in scotland were takin in by labour lies. ie i was very surprised to learn that the only party ever to cut nhs spending in real terms was labour in the 70s (a condition of the imf bailing out the uk with emergency loans). The way labour went on the 80s i genuinely and niavely believe that the tories were actually cutting health spending. And the whole thing was a pack of lies.
10

Alan B,

21/08/2008 11:40:42
#AJ Fife

To an extent do you not think that while the thatcher period was very difficult that was largely down to the truely dreadful situation she inherited.

Since the end of ww2 the uk economy had been steadily getting less and less competitive, until it hit rock botton in the 70s with 25% inflation, imf loans, and was known as the sick man of europe (in economic terms).

Thatcher for all her failings was the first prime minister in 40yrs to address these problems. Part of the reason the uk is one of the richest economies in the world again is due to that transformation.

As such do you not think thatcher is mainly blamed for having to deal with the extreme mess that she inherited and we in many way are just shooting the messenger in blaming her. ie labour in 70s and the tories before her like heath are far more culpible.
11

JohnMcDonald,

London 21/08/2008 11:44:16
Come on Scotsman! You are letting the side down. That headline could have been a tad better - perhaps "Wee Eck in Thatcher love fest!"

As I pass you a tissue to wipe away the drooling saliva can I remind you that everyone else is reaching for the sick bucket.

Alex Salmond and the SNP Government need to have the print media call them to account but this more than year-long nonsense only serves to discredit journalism and drive your paper closer to bankruptcy. Give Scotland and your remaining readers a break and give this obsessive - demented almost - need to rubbish the SNP a rest.

12

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/08/2008 11:58:15
13 Alan B
One or two points :
If I recall accurately the 1979 referendum was held at the time of Jim Calaghan's Labour govt.

I agree with your third point. It has become tiresome to hear the old mantra "Thatcher destroyed Scottish/British" industry. Much of British industry was in terminal decline when she took over.

I think we have agreed in the past that it is extremely difficult to have a rational debate on her virtues/faults as the very mention of the name seem to conjure up so much bitterness and bile. But it is also now clear that no political party (Labour, Libdems and now SNP) advocates a reverse of her economic industry/trade union policies. (sorry I forgot aboout the SSp and Arther Scargill's crew) that must tell us something.

13

Neil,

Glasgow 21/08/2008 11:58:42
Intersting & it shows the split personality of the SNP runs right through the head of its leader.

On the one hand he is economist enough to know that the free market policies that made Ireland grow at 7% & under Thatcher made us grow at 2.5% are what is needed to make Scotland successful. I accept he genuinely wants Scotland to be a successful country.

On the other hand when it comes to doing things he can't shake the SNP's commitment to spend ever more on proppingup our dependency culture & attacking Labour for not wasting enough.

Alex you can't keep promising a "Celtic Lion" economy to match Ireland's forever without doing something about it.
14

Alan B,

21/08/2008 11:59:24
#13
sorry typo was meant to be

"much of the implementation of policy" not "much of the implication of policy"
15

inkster,

21/08/2008 11:59:25
I hate Thatcher too and I wish he hadn't said that but it does stop the SNP gainsayers claiming that the SNP are polically one dimensional and unrepresentative of the broad political spectrum.

It demonstrates is that the SNP are not reactionary snobs like the Tories, inept fuzzy scared dopey jobsworth Liberals or political drunks like Labour.

16

,

21/08/2008 12:01:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
17

Alan B,

21/08/2008 12:03:46
#Ugly George

The referendum was set up by labour. Think it was while thatcher in power. She had just taken over by the time the referendum was run, if i remember correctly (was a wee boy). It was in Novermmber she had taken over in the spring previously.

However my point was not so much about that referendum but the failure of Thatcher to create a scottish parliament despite an apparent appetite within the population for one.

ie I think you could see that as social policy that was being referred to.
18

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 12:05:13
I remember telling you all that Salmond's daddy hated the English and refused to set foot in the British parliament. Can all you SNP fanatics remember sneering that I was making that up?

Have you read "I'm ok, your ok"? It is a fasinating books on the adult, child, parent parts of the brain and how some people when daddy tells them Police are bad, Blacks are wrong etc fail to engage their own thoughts properly and just live their adult lives with daddy's programing.

Thatcher, eh? Tartan tories? Can you SNP remember sneering at one and all for this comment.

I am laughing at all you SNP fanatics, you have been taken for mugs. Fortunately, your seperatist agenda will be voted down by those whose daddies didn't raise us to hate democractic institutions and the English.
19

Scottish 'N British,

21/08/2008 12:12:14

lol

"One of the reasons Scotland didn't take to Lady Thatcher was because of that. We didn't mind the economic side so much. But we didn't like the social side at all."

Just over a month ago Salmond happily and frequently made the point linking Scottish Labour/Labour to the spectre of Maggie Thatcher.

And now this.

Yet another 'rug pulled from under the feet of activists' fiasco.

Or is it Salmond thinknig ahead. Wonder what the die-hards think about this latest deviation from policy?

Anyone?

I can think of a good few things to say about Salmond, few complimentary.

Never, ever could I have thought that one day we would see the headline

"Alex (Salmond), Son Of (Maggie) Thatcher"


20

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/08/2008 12:12:45
17 Neil
You are correct. At present the SNP is trying to be all things to all people. It is saying that it wants to reduce taxation to stimulate the economy but at the same time expressing its desire to spend huge amounts. Somehow this is all to be funded from North Sea oil even though the production of it is falling.


At some stage hard decisions need to be made. Would they envisage a similar NHS to Ireland - only 30% of the population entitled to free GP appointments. They talk about an oil fund like Norway but would the introduce Norwegian levels of taxation (25% VAT including VAT on food - income tax starting AT 28% etc.)
21

Scottish 'N British,

21/08/2008 12:15:38
19

"I hate Thatcher too and I wish he hadn't said that but it does stop the SNP gainsayers claiming that the SNP are polically one dimensional and unrepresentative of the broad political spectrum."

Defending the indefensible. One day Thatcher's Satan. Next day she's, well, "we didn't mind the economic side so much".

Oh dear. A new low. Or is Eck on his own on this one?

Hello....Anyone?



22

Alan B,

21/08/2008 12:15:57
#Ugly George

My point 2 about the implementation of policy being poor many referred to monetary policy. While i was abit young to take a view on the early monetary policy of Howe (it was said he over did it, trying to control inflation and hence bankrupted viable business aswell as shaking out the uncompetitive ones). It was also very hard to judge considering the complete mess she inheritied.

My complain was more monetary policy under Lawson which was poor and undermined the underlying economic achievements. They allowed interest rates to drop before the election of 87 creating a temporary boom. The uk economy grew at more than 4% both in 87 and 88. That was completely unsustainable and lead to the inflation at the turn of the decade that leads inevitably to the recessions of the early 90s.

There were 3 other failing in monetary policy.
-thatcher completley undermined lawson bring in her own professor to make recommendations.
-lawson wanted to join the erm she did not.
-lawson tried to trail the DM while outside the erm causing interest rates to be far to low

She should have either sacked him and brought in someone who was truer to the monetarim idealogy and floating uk exchange rate. Or backed him and joined the erm. While i am pro the euro i thought personally the erm was barmy for the uk.

The other main failing over monetary policy was the over reaction to black monday when they lower interest rates in reaction to the biggest fall in global share prices since the great depression. This helped the over the top growth rates of 88 that lead to the inflation.
23

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 12:19:41
Do you think Alex Salmond ate a freedom fry in the reslience room?

When he refers to "vested interests" in bickfast abusing louts. Does he mean he doesn't want to discourage this type of person voting SNP or independence. I'm laughing at that one, you know my opinion of the SNP/Labour core voter.

What does Hoots think of the SNP's love affair of Thatcher?
24

Highland Mighty©,

21/08/2008 12:21:01
Salmond will get a splinter sitting on the fence for so long.

Pro-public-sector housing yesterday and now pro-Thatcherism (who sold off the council housing under RTB) today.

Make up yer damn mind, Eck!
25

Alan B,

21/08/2008 12:21:46
#Neil

"On the one hand he is economist enough to know that the free market policies that made Ireland grow at 7% & under Thatcher made us grow at 2.5% are what is needed to make Scotland successful"

Not sure what you mean by "made us grow at 2.5%"

Scotland over the last decade had grown at 2.2% on avg. The uk 2.8%. Scotland over the last 30yrs has a growth rate less that 2% (on avg).

The uk economy for the period of thatchers rule was under 2%. They tended to use 81 as baseline rather than 79 was it pushed up the yrly growth rate percentage. (because of the deep world recession at the turn of that decade)
26

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 12:22:55
You should have heard the SNP cult member-come-fanatics on the social housing debate yesterday.

Right-to-buy-this, Thatcher-that, that was all bad. And today we don't mind this economic side to Thatcher.

I'm confused? Which is it, or does your average SNP disciple just look at the pretty pictures of politicians eating sausages?
27

John S,

21/08/2008 12:23:52
Margaret Thatcher and the community charge - It is less in Scotland. It is less in Wales, because we English who are marvellous people are really very generous to Scotland and very generous to Wales.Someone has to speak up for we English, we're the most underestimated people in the United Kingdom. 1990 Feb 10
Margaret Thatcher she blasted the venerable dream of devolution - the establishment of a semi-autonomous legislature to run home affairs in Scotland - as a threat to the union of the United Kingdom.September 5, 1987
Margaret Thatcher wanted to prevent the creation of a Scottish assembly by amending Labour legislation to allow the English to vote in the 1979 referendum on devolution. Scotsman 28 April 2008
Margaret Thatcher ordered her ministers to seek cuts of up to a seventh of the Scottish Office budget as the nation's economy was in acute difficulties, according to official government documents.Herald- June 06 2008

28

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 12:25:03
Speaking of the resilience room.

You know how empire biscuits were once "German" biscuits. What does an SNP ask for in the bakery?

Free by '93 biscuit?
29

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 12:30:05
ECHO! ... Echo ... echo ... ...

I used to love shouting that into dark caves when no-one was about, and hearing it bounce around.

Where is everyone? Was it something AS said?
30

Alan B,

21/08/2008 12:31:08
#27 Ugly George

I think the genuine problem for the snp over the economic issue is they are a coalition of all views on the economic spectrum. The probably sit more on the social democratic side but will also have people that believe in a lower tax model.

I personally would support a lower tax model, but would support them as a party due to the fact i see independence as better for scotland.

While it is a relevent issue with them, although masked somewhat by the limited power of the scottish parliament over taxation.

My understanding of ireland is they are not completely low tax. ie they have low business taxes while higher vat than the uk.

But labour has been all over the place itself as it morphed from a party that believe in socialism (public ownership of industry), from an anti eu party, anti nuclear (both civil and defence). Reversing all off those. It is now a capitalist party with believe in more taxation. (it has even dropped its support favouring direct taxes to more regressive indirect taxes).

The tories on the other hand seem scared to cut taxes.
31

Professor22,

lochgelly 21/08/2008 12:31:17
I objected to Thatcher, in all forms, but then again I must not be Scottish, even though I was born and lived here for 40 years (which beats the Nats Shawwwwwn Coooooneelly)

News to me!
32

Scottish 'N British,

21/08/2008 12:45:57
36

They've been recalled to base - something about getting "on message".

AS luvs MT

lol
33

Scottish 'N British,

21/08/2008 12:49:06
33

Soooo true.

SNP = Hypocrisy.

Let's see them spin their merry way out of this one. It's going to be interesting, if they come back, that is!!
34

Proximaking,

Aberdeen 21/08/2008 12:55:42
Has anyone ever thought to wonder what Lady Thatcher thinks of what she did back then? Milk snatching and getting ice cream to hold more free (to the company but not to you or me) air and all. Would she really defend her idea of charging people for air now? Would she defend laying off millions without a single thought as to what it would do to the family and the individual and their community? Did she really think a bunch of toffee nosed twits in her party knew how to run an economy? etc etc etc I would like to see Lady Thatcher on TV saying what she thinks looking back now, maybe too little too late but as someone once said "It isn't over until the fat lady sings" and I don't see any fat ladies on the horizon.
35

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/08/2008 12:59:23
37 Alan B
Please do not assume that I am defending the Labour part.
On the subject of Ireland its public expenditure as a percentage of GDP is very low(approx. 35%) even though it is spending large amounts to modernise its infrastructure which was neglected during the previous decades of economic underperformance. Its expenditure on the big items - health, social security and education is low compared to Scottish levels.
36

Scottish 'N British,

21/08/2008 13:02:10
41

Great idea.

Let's get Thatcher and Salmond on the same progrmamme to reminisce about the good old days....

Wonder what Als' right-hand man in Westminster, Big Angus Robertson, has got to say about things?

Choking on his single malt, no doubt.


37

John S,

21/08/2008 13:05:47
Gordon Brown named as Thatcher's natural heir by Lord Tebbit who said that it was only natural that Mr Brown should make himself the “heir to Thatcher”.
The Times - Sept 26, 2007
Gordon and Margaret at 10 Downing Street.http://tinyurl.com/3odecx
38

subrosa,

21/08/2008 13:06:27
# 4
'Soutar's pocket, Edinburgh 21/08/2008 10:33:41
I wonder if his father approved of his wife, Moira, probably as they are of a similar age!'

Excellent debating skills. I commend you - for the fool you are.
39

Alan B,

21/08/2008 13:19:43
#Ugly George

"On the subject of Ireland its public expenditure as a percentage of GDP is very low(approx. 35%)"

Is that not more inline with uk spending under thatcher (was under 40% of gdp) without the 4% gdp spending on defence we had in these days.

My perception of ireland is they do underspend on health. Drugs available in uk are not available over their. But it has a good education system. Least that is what i have been told.

40

Number 6,

Germany 21/08/2008 13:24:34
yes yes, thatcher the demon. Any of you remember the state of the country before thatcher came to power ?.

It was hell on earth under Labour, no other way to describe it. It took drastic actions to save us from going under completley. Oh so conveinently forgotton
in Scotland.
If Scots had not displayed a pathalogical hatred of the tories, like some kind of badge of honour, then maybe she would have unleashed her poll tax experiment some where else. As it was, she showed her political astuteness by foisting it on us, because she knew that would cost her nothing in terms of votes.

To say she was evil etc etc is frankly pathetic, especially as we jumped straight back into bed with the liebour party. The same party that brought the country to it's knees.
41

Andra, Dundee,

21/08/2008 13:27:30
So Salmond at long last admits that Thatchers economic policies were good. About time too. Scotland and the UK are economic success stories now. Had Thatcher not done what she did we would have been a third world disaster by now.
SNP and Labour lived in a fantasy world in the 1980s. They thought money grew on trees. Not much change there then!
42

Nell,

Far from the Struan 21/08/2008 13:31:22
Thastcher and her cronies decided that manufacturing things in the UK was not economically viable and set about closing coal mines, steel works, car plants, ship building etc. etc. Obviously the closure of such things had a massive impact on Scotland. She (in conjunction with the owners ) could have modernised those industries, like the Japanese who realise to stay competitive you have to invest and not just bleed dry. Unfortunately she didnt have any alternative sources of employment.
I'm with number 9 Banana Heid. She will always be despised by me. Alex Salmond should be careful about affiliating himself with someone so hated in Scotland.
43

Destroy the Planet,

21/08/2008 13:33:33
Circulation 43000 and falling
44

Scottish 'N British,

21/08/2008 13:41:59
47

Clearly a convert.

Wonder how long it'll take these same Separatists and their august Leader to back the idea of a state funeral for Maggie?

Who said Scottish politics was boring?

LOL



45

Brian S,

Edinburgh 21/08/2008 13:45:50
Aye at least he didn't invite the old crow round for tea and crumpets

It's a shame the Scotsman didn't make such an issue about it when Comrade Broon was kissing her backside.
46

Ugly George,

edinburgh 21/08/2008 14:01:16
49 Nell
I am afraid that your version of events is inaccurate. Thatcher did not "decide that manufacturing things in the UK was not economically viable" and it was not she who closed down the "steel works, car plants" etc. If you look at the reality, once the trade union reform legislation was in place, Japanese car companies like Nissan and Toyota actually started building car plants in the UK.

What Thatcher did was refuse to pour even more billions into industries/companies that were failing and were terminal cases. This had been tried during the previous labour govt and the policy was a failure. In the seventies shipbuilding, steel and Brish Leyland were all nationalised and all flopped at the combined cost of billions. At one stage British Steel was losing over £1million per day (in seventies prices). British Leyland turned out rubbish cars like the Austin Allegro which nobody wanted to buy.
47

Doh,

21/08/2008 14:02:34


Looks like all those business donations are paying off.

Thatcher wouldnt have a state funeral.
She would want it to be privatised.

48

Number 6,

Germany 21/08/2008 14:02:39
#49 As I have pointed out, if we had acted a bit more civillised towards her, and not just spewed out hatred ,
then maybe she would have looked on Scotland more sympathetically.

State run industries were inefficient and huge loss makers to the tax payers.

The products were of third world standards due to the assumption that people had a job for life, no matter how badly they did it.

I will never forget the pictures in the papers of leering British leyland workers, arriving for the night shift, with their sleeping bags, while the unions did nothing but threaten to strike if any action was taken.

No, as unpalitable as it may seem, Thatcher saved Britain. Leaving it in the hands of labour would have been catastrophic for the country.

Do any of the thatcher haters honestly think it would have been better to leave the country in the ruinous hands of Labour in the 70's?
ps, only those who lived through it are qualified to give an opinion on thatcher. Students etc , step back from the keyboard.
49

Doh,

21/08/2008 14:08:05


Let me see Thatcher privatised the buses.
The bus magnate gives a donation to the SNP.
The SNP dont mind Thatcher's economic policies.

He who pays the piper calls the tune?


50

Number 6,

Germany 21/08/2008 14:13:07
#56. And what was that supposed to mean ?
51

Doh,

21/08/2008 14:28:25

#57

Simple enough accusation, is this just part of the evidence that Salmonds lurch to the right since his days in the 79 group is complete.

Coincides with the SNP sucking business donations.

Its time for parties to be funded by the voters
not millionaires.
52

Doh,

21/08/2008 14:34:04
Just in case anyone doesnt remember what a left wing firebrand the Dear Leader was, here is the extract from wikipedia about the 79 group.

Personally I dont remember Alex praising Thatchers economic policies at the time. Maybe he was wrong then and right now. Right and getter righter?

Wikipedia -





The 79 Group was a left wing organisation committed to the idea that the SNP should be in favour of an independent Scotland being a socialist republic. The group was bolstered when many Scottish Labour Party (SLP) members decided to join the SNP after the collapse of the SLP. This made the SNP-left even stronger and they started to exert their influence in the party.

The SNP leadership under Gordon Wilson however took a hostile view of internal factions and in the early 1980s they proscribed the 79 Group, along with another internal SNP faction Siol nan Gaidheal. The 79 Group however reformed itself as a cross-party organisation called the Scottish Socialist Society in an attempt to carry on the work it had began. But the SNP leadership took the view that the 79 Group was continuing. This resulted in the expulsion from the party of the previous Group leaders (including Alex Salmond who would later become the SNP leader).
53

Scottish 'N British,

21/08/2008 14:59:12
56,57

What, like the SNP transport brief being altered to suit a certain company, or the outcome in Aviemore and a certain golf resort in the North East?

Interesting thoughts.
54

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 14:59:51
Hello? Come in plebs... over ... do you read me.

Do you remember when I informed you that Alex Salmond's father hated the English so much that he refused to go and see his son give speeches as part of the British parliamentary democracy in the UK's capital city?

Do you remember that you sneered at me for making that up? Do you? Are you to small-minded to apologise?

That is also the same mentality that polutes communities in our society. Daddy tells them that people the other side of the estate, the other side of the city, the other side of the coast, the other side of the border. Daddy tells them when they are young how much they shoudl be hated, detested loathed, so disguting are these people "at the otherside of..." that you shouldn't even share a pint with them, shake their hands or hear them speak.

This is what caused inbred generational violence in Glasgow, football hooliganism in Aberdeen, Religious hatred in Dundee and the whole of the SNP party.

When daddies teach their kids to hate. That is dangerous.
55

Number 6,

Germany 21/08/2008 15:00:00
#59 I must confess , I did not know that. he is of course a different animal today. One of the reasons many of us could not bring ourselves to vote SNP for so long, was this image of the "Peasants Party" they had. "Big Margo" didn't help.

Thank god he has "Lurched" to the right. Clearly, he has learned from his previous mistakes.
56

Scottish 'N British,

21/08/2008 15:07:19
52

Or that Separatists did have a m-a-s-s-i-v-e issue with Brown meeting with Thatcher but now, mysteriously, don't?

I wonder

1. what Alex Neils's angle on these events. He must be spitting blood.

2. if Gordon Brewer has mischievously invited him onto Newsnight Scotland to discuss.

Talking about tea and crumpets, when's the SNP conference? I predict a bun fight. ALL invited.

57

Scottish 'N British,

21/08/2008 15:10:41
61

There is no religious hatred in Dundee.

The SNP have a very active group on the go there, but tres dormant when it comes to sticking up for the city if that involves facing up to their masters in Perthshire and, especially, Angus.


58

Lianachan,

Highlands 21/08/2008 15:11:49
What numpty got my joke at #20 removed by a mod?! Beggars belief, it really does.
59

The Master,

21/08/2008 15:17:24
#47 Number 6: " If Scots had not displayed a pathological hatred of the tories, like some kind of badge of honour, then maybe she would have unleashed her poll tax experiment some where else. As it was, she showed her political astuteness by foisting it on us, because she knew that would cost her nothing in terms of votes."

Either that or there was about to be a revaluation of the rates in Scotland so, in the face of a revolt against massively increased bills, it was misguidedly felt that the poll tax was the answer. She was actually trying to garner votes, believe it or nor. She was seeking to appease groups such as RAGE (the Rates Action Group Executive).

The trouble with Nats like you is that you start from the premise that Scotland is oppressed and that the "union" is dead in the water etc (we all know the patter) and then blindly seize on anything which could possibly justify this.

Btw, I'm fascinated to hear that Salmond's father refused to visit Westminster to hear him speak: I always wondered what was at the root of his nationalism and knew it had to be something like that (deep psychological waters here, as with most Nats).
60

Lianachan,

Highlands 21/08/2008 15:26:44
#61, among others.

Why do so many unionists associate the wish for an independent Scotland with a hatred of England? It's a ridiculous thing to automatically assume. I very much doubt I'm the only person who wants an independent Scotland, but has no chip on their shoulder and harbours no hatred for our southern neighbours or their country.
61

Stuntman Mike,

21/08/2008 15:26:57
#58 Doh: the trouble with state funding of political parties is that many object to the state having to prop up any undesirable grouping with a sizeable support.

I myself would find state funding of the SNP very hard to stomach, not that I'm implying that there is anything undesirable per se about the party.
62

Stuntman Mike,

21/08/2008 15:28:29
#67: there are a few like you, I admit.
63

John PM,

Edinburgh 21/08/2008 15:28:45
Can the unionists please adopt a new song? Just to cause some actual interesting discussion?

"The SNP are racists [insert meaningless logic]" ie because Salmond's Dad didn't like his son being at Westminster.

Sorry but it's sad and pathetic. All this indicates is that Salmond's family are Scottish nationalists like him. What a shock eh!

There is a nationalist argument in favour of Scottish representation at UK level and one against which is that you shouldn't have any truck with Britain at all.

Either position is honourable. Personally I want Scotland to have no representation in Westminster ie independence but I would rather send an SNP MP than a unuionist down there for the moment until that happens. That's also Alex Salmond's position and most members of the SNP. However having distaste for Westminster (since we are outvoted 11-1) is entirely understandable.

Some Irish MP's have taken this idea to its logical conclusion but only because their country has already declared independence!

If smearing Scots who want normal powers for Scotland is unionism's only argument then it deserves nothing but contempt. Want to know why your parties are crumbling? Stop telling blatant lies.
64

Doh,

21/08/2008 15:34:26
#68 stuntman

That is why funding should be linked to votes.
Say £1 per vote gained.

If you dont like a party then dont vote for it then they wont get your £1.


Also remember there is already some state funding of parties - politicians, their staff and even communication allowances. The trouble with all that is that it is skewed in favour of the sitting member.

Elections need to be paid for - and if someone thinks their vote isnt worth £1 - then they are a prety sad case.

65

Stuntman Mike,

21/08/2008 15:38:31
#71: but how would the system work for nationalist parties that do not stand throughout the UK? I can just hear their howls of protest now although, as you can imagine, I have zero sympathy towards them.
66

Number 6,

Germany 21/08/2008 15:40:59
66 The Master. The trouble with unionistas like you is that you refuse to see that the union delivers nothing to Scotland. You are prepared to defend it at all costs , and subsequently you come across as bitter and fustrated. Powerless to stop the SNP momentum, you are reduced to sniping from the sidelines.

The "union" IS dead in the water. Maybe not tomorrow,
but certainly sooner than you dread.

Why are you "fascinated" to hear that Salmond's father refused to attend Westminster to hear his son.

Is this another twig your going to try and beat the First Minister with ?
67

Scottish 'N British,

21/08/2008 15:46:21
73

hee hee

SNP momentum? On what basis - the activists here? (many of whom appear to have gone to ground, BTW, for some reason).

Next we'll be reading reports on something really wacky, like Hootsman Exclusive, "Salmond Endorses Thatcher Legacy".

Oh wait, that one's taken.


68

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/08/2008 15:47:41
Gerri Peev said:

"ALEX Salmond has said Scotland "didn't mind the economic side" to Margaret Thatcher, but disapproved of the "social" implications of her policies."

What she reports him as actually saying:

"One of the reasons Scotland didn't take to Lady Thatcher was because of that. We didn't mind the economic side so much. But we didn't like the social side at all."

Naughty girl Gerri, that was a manipulation of the truth for the sake of a catchy headline.
69

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 15:48:27
67

Chillax out my lil' buddy. I don't *all* SNP member have hateful fathers that despise the English and rear offspring who are hard programmed as nippers to feel the same irrational hatred.

I just think *many* SNP voters are like this.

I would concede there are also many spotty teenagers who wear the imaginary chip on the shoulder as a badge of honour also.

Also, there are the greedy unemployed scroungers who have lived their live on benefits who want the oil money, so that as the 3 generations before them did, the 3 generations after can live on post-WW2 handouts from the system.

The SNP are a diverse bunch and while you can't always avoid their company, you would never invite one for dinner.
70

Doh,

21/08/2008 15:55:07
#72

The SNAPS would get the $1 reimbursed (that sounds better than state funding) for each vote gained.

If they fight less seats (only those in Scotland) then they will have less election expenses.

It makes sense to me.

Anyway is does look that as the SNP have become more business friendly they have attracted more business donations.

I suspect AS made some unguarded remarks to the tpry journalist, trying to ingratiate himself, but has nevertheless giving another indication of his maturing economic world view.

Thatchers policies were a disater for the economy.
Salmond can come round to that point of view when he writes his memoirs in say 10 years time.
71

Scottish 'N British,

21/08/2008 15:59:06
Salmond will come to regret his comments on Thatcher, no mistake.
72

LEAL,

21/08/2008 16:00:25
Another piece of shoddy journalism by The Scotsman.Opinion polls show 40% of Scots are in favour of independence,40% in favour of the union and 20% undecided.The 20% undecided will only be persuaded to get out and vote to save the union if someone,anyone,can give them a good reason for staying in the union.Here is one
" Our fellow Brits in the home counties depend on Scottish oil revenues to keep them in luxury.It would be selfish of us to keep that revenue to ourselves".
73

The Master,

21/08/2008 16:01:49
#73: Number 6: "Why are you "fascinated" to hear that Salmond's father refused to attend Westminster to hear his son.

Is this another twig your going to try and beat the First Minister with ?"

Let's just say that Salmond's an intelligent man and an able politician, so I've always wondered why such a person would support Scottish separation, which is a "Mickey Mouse" policy to say the least (unless your blinded by misguided nationalism).

Just ask yourself why the policy is vehemently rejected by every other mainstream populist party in Scotland if you're inclined to doubt me.
74

Lianachan,

Highlands 21/08/2008 16:03:45
#76 The irony of your posting like that is quite remarkable.
75

Alan B,

21/08/2008 16:04:43
#Doh

Why do parties need so much money in the first place?

All the fliers and posters are meaningless. As are the billboards.

Have state funded political researchers but why fund all the rubbush we get at election times.

The media both print and tv through politcal programming should be enough. Along with campaigning.
76

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 16:10:07
78 SnB

Make no mistake he will live to regret chatting up Ms T.

Most SNP voters/bloggers/campaigners learned their political history from second rate comedians and chatting down the pub.

They sound like Ben Elton - all of them. "And anuvva thing right, that fatcha, 'art of stone."

LOL. This is too much fun watching the SNP implode day in day out. They have dropped all of their top mamnifesto commitments, found money for stationary and Islam parties, had photoshoots with sausages and now they are bigging up the Iron Lady's economic prowess to the Scots.

LOL. You couldn't write such amusing political obituaries if you tried.

Oh yeah, did we mention the SNP member and politician who took his children in a blacked-out van to a terror training camp to fire AK-47s as a "family holiday."

LOL. Hehehehehe.
77

Shredder,

21/08/2008 16:12:38
#76 Soup Kitchen: " The SNP are a diverse bunch and while you can't always avoid their company, you would never invite one for dinner."

The SNP supporters I know quietly say that they think independence is the best way forward for Scotland but don't assert this as dogmatic truth and are big enough to admit that they might be wrong about this, unlike the vast majority of Nats on the Scotsman boards.
78

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 16:13:26
51% of Scots work in the public sector. Many, many more are scroungers on benefits.

This is why Labour/SNP can stay in power for ever in Scotland. Uneducated dolts, who vote themselves free money out the pockets of other year in year out.

If Alex Salmond dares mess them he's finished in Scotland. This is what happens when you have half the country as benefit scrounging lay-abouts or public sector "workers".
79

Doh,

21/08/2008 16:16:52
#82 Alan

The press and TV are liable to be biased.
In a free society candidates need to be able to express their own message unmediated.

I dont know where you live, but trust me, ask MissH, where a candidate spends more money they will tend to do better. It is similar to advertising.

May the richest man win.
80

,

21/08/2008 16:20:04
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81

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 16:28:22
87 Doonham

Frothing? If you mean by that laughing.

Alex Salmond knows that people hate scrounging torags, never ending upward pressure on wages for the public sector only. Early retirement, higher taxes, no services for money.

So Alex Salmond tries to pretend he believes this too. But the trouble with openly lying for a living is that this has a shelf life as a policy.

Where are the 1,000 police. Where is the free prescriptions, where is the student funding and on and on and on.

What we got, a picture of him with a sausage, Islam party in Glasgow, new stationary that he used write a letter to robert mugabe.

No-one believe a damn word this charlatan sais any more, he just cares about appealing to everyone and having a photo in the papers.

What is Alex Salmond's real economic vision? No different from Labour, create and keep clients-of-the-state.
82

,

21/08/2008 16:29:16
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83

AM2,

Scotland,UK 21/08/2008 16:32:22
#87 Doonhamer

I would just like to point out, in case the positioning of your quote marks didn't make it clear to anyone, that the allegation about Gerri Peev "picking and choosing" is your own, not Iain Dale's.

http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2008/08/ways-of-driving-traffic-to-paul-waughs.html
84

Soutar's pocket,

Under Brian's thumb (like Eck.) 21/08/2008 16:33:10
21 & 45

I see Salmond's bouncers are out. I would have actually lost a wee bet with myself as I was sure the boy SNP sycophant from Fife AJ would have been on sticking up for our dear leader. Subrosa was a cert of course!
85

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

21/08/2008 16:34:40
Another Labour Government near the end of it's tenure, another dire financial mess left for another government to pick the pieces up of, another round of strikes to bring the country to it's knees even further etc etc etc

Have any of the Labour-voting trolls taken any notice of the sickening regularity with which Labour Governments subject us to this abysmal outcome?

Thatcher may well be a vile demon in Scottish eyes but at least she, and the Tories in general, always leave Government with the Country on a reasonably successful path.

Then the Trolls vote Labour in and BAM!!! we're facked again!!
86

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 16:39:00
89 Am2

Since when was that correct?!

Legal aid lawyer is private sector, right?
Subsidised rail network, another private sector job?
Construction companies that get the contracts for hospital, another burgeoning private sector?

Get real AM2, you can legitimately classify these as private jobs in a purely literal sense.
87

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

21/08/2008 16:40:08
And before the trolls start wi' "Och, it's happenin' all over the place" . . . .

Where's our facking Gold Reserves?

Oh that's right, yer man sold it off deid cheap, whit a scunner!!!

And ah suppose ye'll be voting Labour agin?

All Labour voters are Scunners in my eye
88

J-Mac,

21/08/2008 16:41:15
Proof - if it was needed - that there is now no difference between New Labour, the SNP, the Tories or the Lib Dems.

Even the "independence" thing is a charade. There can be NO INDEPENDENCE within the European Union.

And they ALL support the EU (including the Greens and the perforated "socialist" parties that were previously represented in the SP).
89

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 16:44:18
89 AM2

Yes, I've checked. Work given to private companies by public sector is worth £9Billion a year. That is a hefty chunk of the total budget.

But they are private sector jobs, right?
90

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

21/08/2008 16:48:27
Soup Kitchen

Better Thatcher or Salmond than the carnts Labour Voters have subjected us to over the last 10 years.

What a facking mess they've made, or are you one of the very few who've done 'very well thank-you' outta the bustards?
91

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 16:51:38
97

I agree. There is no-one worse than Labour. I would rather Scotland was independent that another 10 years of their mismanagement.

Fortunately, they are going to kicked into third place in a few short years and we can settle down to some Conservative V Lib-Dem policies. That should provide the improvement Britain needs.

The SNP are just as bad as Labour though, in many respects. Their are a lot of clients-of-the-state in Scotland, the majority are in fact.

At least Labour make everyone share in the pain of council tax 300% the rates in England, but the SNP would just force hard working people to pay the clients-of-the-state's share 'n' all.
92

brownlie,

21/08/2008 16:51:43
61 Soup Kitchen

"Do you remember sneering at me because I made that up" - is that some sort of confession that you made it up?

They sneered at you because you were twisting the facts.

The reason most posters do not recall it is probably because you posted as Paisley Pete or Ciderman and most posters just simply ignored your comments.

Some things never change!
93

weh,

21/08/2008 16:55:21
Told you lot before-it you want informed political comment about Scots politicos, the LAST place you will find it is in a Scots rag, such as this!

It follows , then, that what they print is UTTER BALONEY, designed to smear the ruling Scots govt!

Get that through your thick skulls-if you want proper analysis, there are many english papers which will do that, in spades!
94

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 16:55:51
One hundred for the Union!
95

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 21/08/2008 16:56:00
Talk about taking a story down to the filling station and putting the air hose on it.
So Our Alex doesn't believe in Old Labour's "let's nationalize everything" song and dance.
Which was the stagnant economy that the Baroness had to unwind. And the private sector and market forces should play a significant part in a successful Scottish economy. Like it always has.
But he believes in an independent Scotland with a strong social safety net.
Now what part of this doesn't make sense and is a betrayal of SNP "fanatics"?
Because of the f#@ked up structure of the Scottish parliament with all those unelected members, forming a majority government is next to impossible. So any first minister has to form alliances. Which is what Salmond appears to be talking about before the story had the torque wrench applied to it.
Shock. Horror. NOT!!!
96

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 16:56:07
D'oh
97

Miss H,

21/08/2008 16:56:38
Another daft argument. He's saying Scots objected to her social policies more than her economic policies. That doesn't mean that he supported her economic policies.
98

Neil,

Glasgow 21/08/2008 16:59:04
Nell 49 at the start of your post \I thought you were simply another girning socialist opposing Thatcher but then you said

"like the Japanese who realise to stay competitive you have to invest and not just bleed dry"

proving that you realise that the way to economic success is to cut businerss taxes & government expenses way down, as Ireland did to let industry keep the money it needs to invest. That we must get rid of all these leftist big government parasites who suck our country's lifeblood & that your only criticism of Thatcher was that she didn't role back the state as much as she said.

Or I could be wrong & you are just girning without having any idea what you are girning about.
99

Miss H,

21/08/2008 17:00:37
82 It does make a difference. The SNP spent more than Labour in 2007 and won the election. Not a coincidence.
100

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

21/08/2008 17:00:45
As regards clients-of-the-state it is unfortunate that the manufacturing base that they were "bred for" (in all seriousness) has gone overseas, thanks to Governments of both ilks.

However, how would you go about reducing them? National service would be ok for a while, perhaps even a community service whereby the great unwashed do all the building etc like 1930's Germany.

But there comes a time where everything has been built, mended and our army is at full strength.

Then What?

I think the only way is to start introducing eugenics into this country. We do not need that big a work-force any longer. And it is that class in the main who are the knife-weilding, drug-taking, thieving scum who give this Island it's bad name.

Sterilise Them!!
101

Miss H,

21/08/2008 17:03:08
72 The way it works now. What difference do you think it would make?
102

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 21/08/2008 17:03:53
#107

The Glasgow East by-election is over. Move on.
103

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

21/08/2008 17:07:20
108

Miss H - In the short term, none at all. but in the long term - which politicos NEVER seem to think of . . . .

109

Neil W - I live in Kent, England. The problem is just as bad here as in Glasgow or anywhere else in the UK!
104

Miss H,

21/08/2008 17:09:09
27 No - you should look at the Scandinavian model as that is what the SNP supports.

Frequent reference is made to Ireland because it used to belong to Britain but is now independent. Now in the old days (which some people here may not remember) unionists used to point to Ireland and say that's how an independent Scotland would end up as they thought it would put people off the idea. These days that's not such a good argument of course as Ireland is doing pretty well and the SNP just like to point that out to rub their noses in it.

The bog trotters haven't done so badly on their own so why should the sweaty socks do any worse?
105

Miss H,

21/08/2008 17:12:05
110 You mean that Scotland will be independent in the long term? Don't see how that will make a difference actually. It won't be a new expense if such a system is already in place, we will just continue it.
106

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

21/08/2008 17:14:32
Miss H

Do you REALLY have to stoop to using derogetory(?) terms for people.

Isn't there enough craap and hatred in the world without you gi'in it your twopen'orth?
107

Brian S,

Edinburgh 21/08/2008 17:15:21
#63

Uch dry your eyes will ya!

I think some of her policies were essential, but as Alex says the woman could have been more caring when wielding her axe. The trouble with her was that she had no sympathy or compassion for the folk who's lives she was ruining.

If Auntie Annabel's lot were to change their tune and back a federation or independence I and a lot of folk would vote for them. But until they do, they'll be forever sidelined in Scotland.


108

Miss H,

21/08/2008 17:15:49
59 Wikipedia is not infallible you know. It would take someone who was around at the time to tell you what the 79 group business was really about. I am far too young of course.....
109

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

21/08/2008 17:17:26
112

I was talking about finding a solution for Soup Kitchens 'clients-of-the-state'

Independent or not the Island of Albion has a major problem with scum infestation and it needs sorting.

Now!
110

AM2,

Scotland,UK 21/08/2008 17:17:59
#93 Soup Kitchen

Public 576,500 + private 1,965,700 = 2,542,200 total employed.

51% of that is 1,296,500 or so.

That's 720,000 more than the official figure!

Are you telling me that such a massive discrepancy can be explained through Legal Aid lawyers, rail workers and PFI construction workers?

I'm quite willing to be proved wrong, but some evidence wouldn't go amiss.
111

Miss H,

21/08/2008 17:18:04
113 I do apologise. Irish people are absolutely never referred to as bog trotters and how could I have imagined Scots being referred to as sweaty socks? Who would ever say such a thing?

Please excuse me, I must have gone temporarily insane.
112

The Master,

21/08/2008 17:18:15
#104 Miss H: but it's a revelation for a prominent Nat to admit that Thatcher's economic policies were not as objectionable in Scotland as her social policies.

Remember this is the party that publicly found all her policies so objectionable that, until very recently, there was an official policy of refusing to enter into any kind of formal coalition with the Tories. You can't quite gloss over this, however hard you try!
113

Miss H,

21/08/2008 17:26:01
119 No it's not. Without writing an essay about it the social values which Thatcher promoted, usually summed up in her 'there is no such thing as society' soundbite, offended most people in this country on an intense and deep level that she will never be forgiven and is hated by many to this very day.

Incidentally there still is a policy of never entering into any parliamentary coalition with the Tories. That was reaffirmed straight after the election.
114

brownlie,

21/08/2008 17:26:09
119 The Master

What Salmond is actually saying it that whilst they disliked Thatcher's economic policies they hated her lack of social conscience a lot more. If you read the full article you can see Salmond's opinion of the Conservatives.

However, if you only read the Scotsman head-line it is no surprise if you are deceived.
115

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 17:27:04
117 Am2

Can't prove it I'm afraid. No-one publishes the true figures. But £9 billion goes from the public to the "private" sector to hide the true public sector employment costs.

Don't forget all the unemployed as well! I would stake a very large some of money of there being more clients-of-the-state in Scotland, than not.
116

,

21/08/2008 17:36:04
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117

,

21/08/2008 17:38:20
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118

Alan B,

21/08/2008 17:41:25
#Doh

I take your point. I suppose where I was coming from but did not explain is that it would be better to have stricter limits on election spending. ie a cap.

Why do we need so many political posters stuck to lamp posts? The parties end up all trying to out do each other by having so many posters around.
119

,

21/08/2008 17:52:59
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120

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 17:56:27
126

Why is it you have a "deep burning hatred" for the conservative party? What are you afraid they will do?
121

The Master,

21/08/2008 17:57:21
#120 Miss H: I'm not sure you're in touch with the mood on the ground in the days of Thatcher. It wasn't the quote about their being no such thing as society but the bread and butter issues of the poll tax, mass unemployment and the decline of the industrial base in Scotland as the economy restructured.
122

Alan B,

21/08/2008 17:59:57
#The Master

Scotland had a deep dislike of Thatcher long before the poll tax. Remember the poll tax was only introduced in her 3rd term in office
123

,

21/08/2008 18:00:55
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124

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 18:08:45
130

Do you know what they did to destroy your country?

Labour bankrupts Britain everytime. The SNP would be the same with Scotland. Any update on how the £400,000 party for Islam is coming along? Or how about that sign that cost £125,000? I am available to pose with a sausage if it will help jump-start the economy.

But how about the Tories? It may seem "nasty" not have parties for Islam or sausage appreciation mornings, but the important things cost money, and if there's any left over then it rightfully belongs in the pockets of the citizens. Rather than enforced public parties and sausage appreciation days.
125

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 18:11:57
As usual the public sector have gotten used to gravy under Labour. Did you know standard and poor are going to reduce Britain's credit rating to "sub-investment" junk bond level because our public sector pension bill is so high?

So, as in the 70s we are bankrupt again. That is the Labour mentality. The SNP share it.

Alex Slamond is just pretending he's sane by associating himself with conservatism, because the UK desperately needs to sanity and rationalisation at this time.

NOT £400,000 parties for Islam. Allah can cheer himself up.

By the way a playstation 3 and a luxury holiday once a year isn't a human right.
126

The Master,

21/08/2008 18:14:08
#129 Alan B: but the Tories were able to maintain at least a modicum of MPs in Scotland (compared to their current Scottish representation, at any rate!) I'm far from convinced that she was as unpopular pre poll tax as you make out.
127

Miss H,

21/08/2008 18:19:08
128 No it was the way she handled it that upset people. I don't mean people literally remember that remark as the worst thing about her I meant it sums up what was so awful about her. Possibly a lot of the industrial decline would have happened anyway but she gave the impression she was pleased about it. Having destroyed the mining industry she was happy to see the same happen to the shipyards, steel mills etc. If she saw the miners as the enemy within perhaps she saw the rest of the working class the same way. Although if there was one person hated more than her it might have been Norman Tebbit with his get on your bikes remark.
128

Miss H,

21/08/2008 18:26:16
133 What are you talking about? The Tories went into complete meltdown in Scotland as a direct result of Thatcherism.

They have only rebuilt themselves by distancing the party from her and everything she stood for.
129

Miss H,

21/08/2008 18:28:18
123 How true. Laboue are now calling for Alex to 'hang his head in shame' !

Classic.
130

Richardinho,

21/08/2008 18:28:28
Thatcher was intent on enriching the south of england to the detriment of everywhere else.
I'd be perfectly happy to have a Scottish Thatcher who would enrich Scotland and not care about anywhere else.
131

The Master,

21/08/2008 18:28:54
#135: I think you'll find that the meltdown only happened at the '97 election. Before that, Stirling, Eastwood and your very own Perth were in Tory hands, so they must have had something going for them in certain pockets of middle class Scotland. How was that a meltdown?
132

,

21/08/2008 18:30:49
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133

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 18:34:17
139

I don't think it's fair of you to call yourself stupid.

What's the answer by the way? I only ask you because I know you don't actually know.

You're just another Ben Elton, "And annuvva thing, see that fatcha right, 'art of stone."
134

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 18:37:45
To all you SNP pillocks, I give you the gift of seeing yourself as others see you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CxEFk8-F88

Good old Ben Elton. Total idiot.
135

Alan B,

21/08/2008 18:38:16
#Master

The tories had some areas where they did win seats under thatcher. But in general she returned less and less mps ever election.

But over all they were crushed at the ballot box by labour.

Part of there wipe out was due to redrawing of seats.
136

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 18:39:48
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSuMSu20avs&feature=related
137

Miss H,

21/08/2008 18:42:53
138 What happened in 1997 was a meltdown because the Tories had nothing to fall back on as they had completely alienated their own natural supporters. She offended their values as much as she offended everyone elses. The Tories have had to completely rebrand themselves to win their supporters back again.
138

Alan B,

21/08/2008 18:44:51
#Miss H

I do not think the tories have really distanced themselves from thatcher.

Proably more accurate that most of the ideological points she stood for have been adopted as generally good by labour.

The only real fundamental difference now with labour is over tax.

1)using interest rates as the primary method of controlling inflation. (no longer have income policies)
2)runnning a tight fiscal budget. while labour have lost it here it is generally seen as being the right thing to do
3)unions
4)employment regulatons
5)industry should be in the private sector. labour is not longer socialist
6)labour even agree with nuclear both civil and defence.
7)home ownership

The real point about thatcher, is the main tenents are now mainstream.

There are agruments round the edges and levels of tax but ideologically most of the parties are nearer to that ideology than labours of the 80s.

Her problem was more a the messenger that had to bring about change. And to some extent her english nationalism.
139

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 21/08/2008 18:50:39
Until Scots get over this puerile, knee-jerk, unreasoning hatred of Margaret Thatcher, we're doomed to to continue to be a second-rate, dependency culture country.
140

Alan B,

21/08/2008 18:50:41
#145 Miss H

I think part of their complete wipe out in 97 (other than the redrawing of seats), was due the complete shambles of the major government. The numerous scandals that tory mps were being caught in and the deep rifts and infighting within the party.

141

,

21/08/2008 18:50:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
142

Miss H,

21/08/2008 18:52:49
146 Oh they have. Just look at their website or their manifesto for 2007. People often say that Labour have embraced the Thatcherite agenda but it is equally true to say that the Tories have embraced the social democratic agenda. Cameron talks all the time about being a progressive politician. You could never have said that about Thatcher.


143

Miss H,

21/08/2008 18:55:34
148 Yes that is all true but all parties go through that from time to time and still have their core vote to fall back on. The Tories didn't because they had lost a lot of their core voters.
144

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 18:56:38
Personally, I would ignore soup.

Another clan member advises me that soup claims to be the holder of a Master's Degree (with distinction, don't forget) in physics. And apparently holds an ATT qualification which is some sort of accountancy qualification apparently.

The same soup above - "What's the answer by the way? I only ask you because I know you don't actually know."

This is remarkably like Highland Mighty in style. And in terms of dodging the simple questions, old sooopybabes couldn't answer a fairly simple physics question correctly despite it being posed to him several times.

Now soup slags the SNP and liebore in hysterical terms, particularly the nats. (Keep it up soup, you keep adding to the votes of the nats each time you do).

He clearly can't be a liberal as liberalism is not a label one could attach to his mentallist rantings.

Are you a toryboy perchance soup ? Nothing wrong in that per se, but you won't win them many votes.

Ignore the fraud. He knows nothing, is merely another troll. Masters in physics ? Aye, probably bought from the same uni that Doctor Paisely bought his divinity doctorate from.
145

Alan B,

21/08/2008 18:57:33
#Miss H

Cameron maybe has changed the language and presentation. But if you take the main tenents of thatcherism, i cannot see any difference.

Labour are basically thatcherite now with higher taxes.

Exactly what in policy terms woud the Cameron government be different?

Add to that any Cameron government would be far more anti european than a thatcher one. (thatcher getting more anti european later on and once out of power - her cabinet had many/mostly pro europeans)
146

,

21/08/2008 19:01:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
147

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 19:03:15
But in case soup turns up again, here's another really easy physics question for the masters (with distinction) degree holder.

He's such a cheeky wee monkey I thought this problem was rather apt. It's called "The monkey problem."

Here it is soopydroopy:

The Monkey Problem

A young native hunter in the Amazon is hunting monkeys with a bow and arrow. The hunter see a monkey sitting on a branch, and since the bow does not have a sight, the hunter pulls back the bow and points the arrow directly at the monkey.

As the hunter releases the arrow the monkey notices the movement and drops off the branch. What happens next?

I think we should be told. But as he is no physicist, and declines to answer questions put to him (unlike demanding answers of others) we won't be in all likelihood; at least not by him. I'll post the answer later.
148

Miss H,

21/08/2008 19:04:24
153 But language and presentation matter. We are talking about why Scots hated Thatcher and a lot of it was in fact down to language and presentation, to the impression that she gave and the values that she had (or appeared to have).

In my opinon - which is based on a lot of experience - when people vote it is not just on policies, in fact many people don't really care about policies to be honest. They will usually vote for the party or perhaps the individual candidate who represents their values, the values they want to see in government.

I know that may sound a very nebulous concept but it's to a large extent how elections are won and also lost.
149

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 19:04:27
152 McMadman

Thanks for another insightful instalment.

This is forum for politics, specifically the article refers to Thatcherism and its merits. It makes sense I probe people's motives for hating Thatcher if I am to understand why they feel that way. My guess is, like Ben Elton, they "hate" her because they feel they should, because it makes them principled, righteous and informed. But like Mr elton, they are just vaccious fools.

Your boneheaded physics questions however? It makes sense I ignore you, this is not a physics story, the item makes little mention of physics.

It seems whenever someone on these forums paints themselves into a corner they claim the other is a troll? Grow up!.

I genuinely want to know, what specifically did Margaret Tatcher do that you disagree with or felt was wrong for the UK?

So far we have she spent more money on London. Well, the SNP have introduced a subsidy for Edinburgh to meet the burden of being the capital. So you're not vene out of the starting blocks yet.

"Yeah, that fatcha right, and anuvva fing."
150

,

21/08/2008 19:05:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
151

Alan B,

21/08/2008 19:10:58
#156 Miss H

I agree with that post. Presentation is important. I was just saying that i do not think in policy terms the tories (at a uk level) are different.

To a large extend thatcherite policies have become so mainstream. Even things like top rate tax which was 83% in 79 is still the 40% a decade after the tories left power.
152

Miss H,

21/08/2008 19:11:35
157 To understand you would have had to have been around at the time. There is no one single thing about her that made people hate her. Not just the poll tax in itself or the miners strike or the sermon on the mound or anything that you could list in order of annoyingness. It was everything. She had no feeling for people, I think that was it.
153

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 19:11:38
155

Oh god you and physics questions. LOL. Does google and copy and paste help you compensate for no education.

Both monkey and arrow have relative velocities (vector) with 3 components in the x,y and z planes. The basis of your question provoke the answer that the velocity in the Y plane is the same, ie both accelerated at 9.81 ms^2 (s = ut + 1/2 at^2 ) where s = height of monkey off ground u = 0 starting speed and t = ?

Althought it's a daft question as I don't know if the hunter started at the same height as the monkey, or if branches are in the way or what components on x,y,z plane. Carthesian co-ordinates would be easiest way to sovle if they hit or once working out time.

Anyway, you seem to want me to say that gravity holds the arrow and monkey level until they collide.

But what has that proven? That I can google as well. you are just an idiot and I have no need to prove myself to you.
154

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 19:15:07
Soup

I did not express any comment for or against thatcher. Some in Scotland may hate her because they feel obliged to (as occurs elsewhere in the uk) - others for specific reasons, eg rampant inflation, 3million unemployed, the death of manufacturing industry, the falklands, the miners, the dockyards, etc and so on

Your own posts point you out for the troll you very clearly are.

I asked if you were a tory and note you do not answer. Are you or not ? It doesn't matter overmuch I suppose, but it does neatly show the hypocricy of you demanding answers of others when you have not the courtesy to answer or even acknowledge questions put back to you.

You regularly go well off topic yourself. I do not think the question on physics is off topic per se, it is germane to exposing you as perhaps somewhat overegging the truth by claiming to have a masters degree with distinction in physics (let's skip your claim to earn £49k ans also to hold an accountancy qualification for the mo).

It's such an easy answer (and the example I use is sourced from a university) that you should be able to deal with it now. If you do I will unreservedly apologise and not refer to your mastery of physics again, at least tonight.

If not, well, you kind of show yourself up to be a fraudulent wannabe physicist/accountant on apparently £40kpa who hates everyone less well of than you are, sees no need to house anyone who cannot afford to pay for it in full (though you don't suggest any alternative) and gripes at paying tax in support of people not as well off as you. As well as hating the entire public sector.

Hmm. Bit right wing even for the tories maybe ?
155

Nikostratos,

21/08/2008 19:15:43
#155 McMadman's third cousin,

s,easy the monkey voted for the snp and the arrow flew harmlessly by and hit a passing unionist in the ar'se..

P.S do i get the prize..
156

Alan B,

21/08/2008 19:16:16
#Soup kitchen

I think much of the dislike for thatcher in scotland was due to the fact she had a radical agenda in policy terms (to a large part blaming thatcher was shooting the messenger), but never had popular support in scotland.

In a democracy it is important to have popular support for what you do. She never won an election in scotland but was always trounced.

The feeling of a politician implementing policy against the will of the people was prevailent. She did not help herself with silly remarks - i remember her coming out with things like it does not matter what the people want leading to the whole issue of an elected dictatorship.
157

,

21/08/2008 19:16:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
158

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 19:16:54
I see our posts crossed soup.

And you admit to googling the answer rather than knowing it.

Oh well, thanks for proving yourself a fraud.

Maybe we should try your accountancy skills next ?
159

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 19:18:00
Doonhamer

I wouldn't dream of banning soup, he is hilarious and piles votes on for independence and anti right wing extremism generally each time he posts.
160

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 19:22:27
Soup

Follow up to #166, this time on acountancy. I'll make it multiple choice for you and as easy as the physics question was

A. 1 + 1 = dunno, I only said I was an accountant, I haven't a clue really.

B. 1 + 1 = hold on, I don't know, but I'll run off and google it so I can maintain the pretence that I am really an accountant

C. 1 + 1 = dunno, I earn £40kpa, don't deal in piffling numbers as low as this

D. Errr, nope, still need more time

E. Sussed it out on a calculator. Is it 3 ? Most of my posts consist of me making 1 + 1 = 3 after all

F. Flippin no idea, I'm only 8 years old really as my posts show.

Just post the letter soup.
161

G.Campbell,

21/08/2008 19:22:37
"We didn't mind the economic side so much. But we didn't like the social side at all."

It's hardly controversial stuff. If Scots were so opposed to "Thatcher economics" they would never have voted for New Labour in such large numbers. New Labour = thatcherite neo-liberalism with a bit of social democracy thrown in. Not enough of the latter, mind, hence the drift to the SNP.
162

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 21/08/2008 19:24:10
A fine selection of student Pavlovian responses. 'Thatcher...' WOOF! 'Bad!!'
163

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 19:25:46
Nikos

"#155 McMadman's third cousin,

s,easy the monkey voted for the snp and the arrow flew harmlessly by and hit a passing unionist in the ar'se..

P.S do i get the prize.."

:) LOL

Nearly. If only you had pointed out that said arrow, in hitting unionist in the earchie, had effectively banned said unionist's ability to speak, you'd have given the full correct answer.

Better luck next time.

164

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 19:28:29
169 McMadman

Is that what qualifies as an unreserveded apology and no further references to my academic brilliance tonight? hehe

I only mentioned google because I knew that was your follow up, any bully would have come out with that one.

At least my response is time stamped. I got you your answer in 8 minutes. 2 mins to type post, I didn't spot your post for a few minutes wither as I read the ones above and below.

Honestly though, do you think I could have produced an answer like that if I was as thick as you in 2 mins?

hehe

You must be gutted.

Love and hugs, etc
165

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 19:34:25
No apology at all soup, see 166 and 169.

Nice try on the excuses front. Timestamping and so on, there was a genuine overlap. Try not to rush everything as you may find out if your baws ever drop and you get laid.

By your own admission you didn't know the answer and had to google it. Academic brilliance ? Hoist by your own petard more like.

Have you worked out the accountancy question yet or do you need a hand ?

166

Nikostratos,

21/08/2008 19:35:21
#160 MISS H

As much as i detest Margaret she did not win all those elections by not having a feeling for people,(Ooer)
it is just the people (some but not all) saw it was not working in thier lives and decided to support someone else.

But the unfortunate reality is thatchers policys continued she in fact won the argument. even Alex is saying so and as for having right wing free market economics hand in glove with social democracy scottish style. Best of luck doomed to failure there i am afraid.



#171

you obviously wasn't there

167

Miss H,

21/08/2008 19:37:00
168 Not sure what your point is. The manifesto said that an SNP Government would give early consideration to a new Forth crossing including looking at tunnel options. John Swinney made a statement to Parliament about it in December 2007.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/This-Week/Speeches/Weathier-and-Fairer/forthcrossing

They looked at a suspension bridge, a cable-stayed bridge, a bored tunnel and an immersed tube tunnel.
Assume you know what these mean - I haven't a clue. They went with a cable stayed bridge on cost grounds as far as I can tell.

I dare say you can get a copy of the report from Transport Scotland.
168

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 19:38:17
162 McMadma

I dealt with your question 4 minutes BEFORE you said you would apologise if I did it "now". So where is my apology.

Are you a man of your word? It is there for all to see you are not. Just bitter that I have worked and achieved more that you wever will. LOL.

People like me laugh at people like you.

Everyone knows why I ignored your first question last night, no point wrestling with pigs. You just get dirty and the pig likes it.
169

Miss H,

21/08/2008 19:38:33
175 What are you talking about? She never won an election in Scotland.
170

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 19:38:36
Ps soup

Me a "Bully" for asking you a simple couple of questions ?

This is you to Ms H at post 149

"Shut it you tube."

Hmmmm. Didn't think that through, did you, oh masterful brain of the universe (specialities physics, accountancy and trolling posts).

Dearie me. This would make you a hypocrite. And very, very like Highland Mighty.
171

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 21/08/2008 19:40:43
#175 Nikostratos

That's my point. I WAS there. I was one of those self-satisfied wee students that disliked Thatcher with the obligatory passion. But I've grown up since. I can see the country as it was for the working class before her and since. I've examined things rationally. Yes, she had faults, but she was a truly revolutionary politician.
172

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 19:41:48
#177

Ho ho ho soup. Still not got the answer to #169 ?

No apology because, as you admit, you had to google the physics answer - you didn't know it.

You can't spin out of that. You are a fraud and have admitted such on the physics fromt, so lets deal with the accountancy.

Remember I asked you

"Follow up to #166, this time on acountancy. I'll make it multiple choice for you and as easy as the physics question was

A. 1 + 1 = dunno, I only said I was an accountant, I haven't a clue really.

B. 1 + 1 = hold on, I don't know, but I'll run off and google it so I can maintain the pretence that I am really an accountant

C. 1 + 1 = dunno, I earn £40kpa, don't deal in piffling numbers as low as this

D. Errr, nope, still need more time

E. Sussed it out on a calculator. Is it 3 ? Most of my posts consist of me making 1 + 1 = 3 after all

F. Flippin no idea, I'm only 8 years old really as my posts show.

Just post the letter soup."

Do you need a hand ? Surely you can have googled the answer by now, little child ?

Methinks "F" is the real answer, don't be afraid to admit it now wee man.

173

Miss H,

21/08/2008 19:42:21
171 It doesn't really matter what you personally think of Thatcher. Perhaps you are actually Michael Forsyth and loved her to bits.

The fact is she's electoral poison in Scotland. No-one wants to be associated with her.
174

Hamish Scott,

21/08/2008 19:43:55
A "free-market, tax-cutting agenda" is better than a " free-market, tax-raising agenda".
175

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 21/08/2008 19:46:44
#182 Miss H

My point entirely. We're a nation that hasn't moved on since 1991. Time we looked at things rationally.
176

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 19:48:06
"175 Nikostratos,21/08/2008 19:35:21
#160 MISS H

As much as i detest Margaret she did not win all those elections by not having a feeling for people,(Ooer)
it is just the people (some but not all) saw it was not working in thier lives and decided to support someone else."

Broadly true Nikos on a uk wide basis but not on a scottish basis. Interestingly, radical thatcherism and what was perceived to be the imposition of it in scotland (or at the least an inability of scotland to do anything about it) is sometimes argued as being the driver behind "A claim of right for Scotland" which has so far taken us to devolution and - some people hope - eventually (soon) to independence.
177

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 19:49:03
181

I didn't admit to googling the answer. I pointed out you would claim I had, I was right.

Please fork off now you dolt. I answered your question 4 minutes BEFORE you said if I did it "now" you would stop your BS.

Sadly, for you, *you* have revealed yoursefl to be the troll. You'll please excuse me if I no longer respond to your doltish ways.
178

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 19:50:19
#182

Except soup, Ms H.Good arguments, glad you did not take soups advice that you should "Shut it, you tube."

Such manners from a juvenile delinquent.
179

Nikostratos,

21/08/2008 19:52:39
#178 miss h

Margaret was a political juggernaut in her day that's a fact to suggest she did not have political ability to bring people along with her is just plain wrong.

And as for not winning in Scotland whats that meaningless comment about. Don't see Alex winning anything in England but i.m not claiming he hasn't any support or that people (some) are not prepared to follow his leadership...and no doubt at some future date say how awful they always thought he and the snp were.
180

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 19:53:26
Yes you did soup. Here's the quote (after you cut and pasted in the answer)

"Anyway, you seem to want me to say that gravity holds the arrow and monkey level until they collide.

But what has that proven? That I can google as well."

Ps - for someone who says "...and I have no need to prove myself to you,"

you have spent rather a lot of time trying - and failing - to do precisely that.

You've spent rather a lot of time
181

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 19:55:17
#188

Nikos,

"And as for not winning in Scotland whats that meaningless comment about."

It is germane to explaining people's dislike of her policies here and why devolution occured - basically to prevent any further repetition. See my #185.
182

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 19:57:29
McMadman

Google my answer then? Any pages returned with that choice of phrase? No! thought not.

No beat it you dolt. Who's fault was it you failed in life? Fatcha's? The Union's? Mine? Daddy's?

Like I said, people like me laugh at people like you. You gave me nothing when I was working hard as a student and I'll now use my vote to cut your pension and benefits. That is what happens when people like the SNP break the contract with the young.

Hehe. My salary is already pretty decent, but once I get a decades experience. Classic, can't wait. Naturally I won't spare thought for you huddled 'round your candle in that one bed, hungry.

After all, that was what Uni was like for me.
183

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 20:00:26
Soup

I quoted your admitting to getting your answer from google directly from the post that you made some time back.

You gave your answer.

You admitted

"But what has that proven? That I can google as well."

Ergo you googled, cut and pasted in your answer. I almost admire your heroic efforts to spin otherwise, but, you know, you have to admit it, you didn't know the answer, you googled it, admitted it, and frankly have no qualifications in anything other than petty boastfulness and trolling nonsense.
184

Miss H,

21/08/2008 20:04:29
184 Of course we have moved on from 1991, that’s a daft thing to say. There is not the same level of antipathy towards the Tories now as there was then not least because the Tories themselves have moved on and adapted pretty well to the new political set-up even though the party historically fought devolution tooth and nail. Thatcher's part of history now.
185

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 20:04:42
Ps soup -

Don't presume to tell anyone to "beat it." It doesn't help you appear rational, only irrational, childlike, desperate, and trying to spin out of a corner you painted yourself into.

1 + 1 = how much, my highly qualified accountant physicist on £40kpa plus ? You are laughable, and to be pitied.
186

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 20:05:14
Your a quirky guy McMadman, in an thick kind of way.

Does it make you angry that thick and quirky doesn't buy the kind of car you want? Do you catch the women you fancy in life occasionally gazing at the bright, young, succesful things and feel like a failure?

It's okay mate, I'm here for you. And this website too.
187

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 20:06:36
"have you heard about Scotland's national care standards?"

The television informs me clients-of-the-state get a free butler now.
188

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 20:06:37
#193

Goog point, as evidenced by the tory representation at holyrood, if not in scottish westmonster seats. They are neck and neck with the libdems now, so are a relevant voice in scottish politics even for those of us with long memories of some of the damage done under her governments to scotland and the uk.
189

Miss H,

21/08/2008 20:07:39
188 You've lost it there.
190

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 20:09:41
Soup

Now you are clearly losing it, as #195 and #196 show.

Remember, you were asked a question. You gave an answer. Then you said

"But what has that proven? That I can google as well."

You did not have a clue. You are not telling the truth about being a physicist.

I am happy, well adjusted and chillin, your posts are becoming more deranged by the minute.

For someone who said he didn't have to justify himself to anyone you are sure making a heck of a racket trying to do just that.

Just chill out son, accept you got caught out on the masters degree with distinction in physics nonsense, and move on in life. When you eventually get a life, that is.
191

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 20:10:47
#200 for independence
192

Hamish Scott,

21/08/2008 20:11:53
Day 459 of the Scotsman's Cunning Plan:
Cause: Lies, fears and smears about Scottish independence and the independence movement.
Fantasy Effect: We realise we're a shi-yte country and need London to run our country for us- the Union is safe!
Real Effect: Scotsman implodes, Scots get ever more scunnered by the utter negativity of lies, fears and smears and turn to independence.
193

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 20:14:56
Good point Hamish.

Quick to criticise as many unionists are, from their minority position of only being supported by less than a third of the electorate, they generally

- do not come up with anything constructive, and

- cannot explain why, if independence occured, Scotland would immediately implode.

It's as though they think that if they repeat the lie often enough that we are all doomed if independence comes and we are not fit and capable of running our own affairs, that we will all believe it.



194

Itchy,

21/08/2008 20:18:33
"In remarks that will fuel criticism that the SNP has adopted a free-market, tax-cutting agenda more in tune with the Thatcher legacy"

Only in Scotland where people vote Socialist because their father did, could this be described as criticism.

Gordon Brown has bled the UK dry, including Scotland, with his relentless tax increases and lower taxes are precisely what is needed to get the country going again.
195

Truely English,

21/08/2008 20:19:49
While many in Scotland hated Mrs Thatcher, it seems most of England and the rest of the World are now following having to follow in her footsteps. Those important countries who didn't are not at the bottom of the pile economically.

Thankfully, the Conservative Party are there to make Britain and British culture great once again and this includes Scotland, who has in the past and also do presently make such a handsome contribution to our English language and culture.
196

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 20:20:28
A fair point itchy. Reducing corporation tax to attract inward investment might be an option.
197

Conan the Librarian™,

21/08/2008 20:21:06
Good Evening Clan McMadman

Did the arrow hit the red rosette?
198

Truely English,

21/08/2008 20:23:22
What a contribution Annie Lennox the singer makes to British and English Culture.
199

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 20:24:21
Truely nonsense

Good start for the first half a dozen words.

But as scotland does not and has not for decades returned a tory majority, it neatly demolishes the central point of your argument that we are all one culture - or we'd all vote tory by large majorities in scotland to demonstrate our cultural assimilation that you claim.
200

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 20:27:53
#206

Hello there Conan. The twins and the other two cousins send their regards. Luckily we are a large family...

Yes indeed, the arrow hit the jackpot. Ask Soup, who is away sulking, having said arrow surgically removed, having been exposed as a total fraud on the toryism, politics, unionism and physics fronts.

He hasn't answered the accountancy question yet - see above. It might take a while, 1 + 1 = ? Tricky for an accountant that one.
201

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 20:28:59
Conan

See truely nonsense is back. I cannot be bothered, back in a bit.
202

Alan B,

21/08/2008 20:31:23
#Truely English

"it seems most of England and the rest of the World are now following having to follow in her footsteps"

There was little that thatcher lead the world in. Thatcher basically followed an economic ideology already laid down.

He adoption of monetarism where interest rates was used to control inflation was based on Milton Friedman economics. The use of interest rates in this way had already been adopted by the US and Germany. The european central bank still follow friedmans monetarism long after the tories moved on to inflation targeting but still using interest rates as the many weapon against inflation.

As for lower taxes and industry run in the private sector. Hardly revolutionary stuff apart from the uk in the 70s.
203

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 21/08/2008 20:33:05
Nice to see the unionists choking over their invective.

Face up to it, Salmond can say, and be interpreted by the spin in this paper, what he likes. He will get away with it at the moment. Better to get it out early.

204

Truely English,

21/08/2008 20:33:13
It did surprise me that Sir Sean Connery accepted a knighthood for his contribution to acting as he is such a fervent Scottish Nationalist who lives outside Britain. His contribution to English popular culture has been enormous and certainly deserves the recognition.

There are many more such as Tilda Swinton from Nairn and Ewen McGregor just to name a few.
205

Conan the Librarian™,

21/08/2008 20:35:49
209
After the accountant's cut the answer is ½.
206

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 21/08/2008 20:40:54
In fact, if Alex Salmond can cherry pick the best of all political leaders, then that makes him eclectic Eck - and that ain't a bad thang - eh no, Truely?
207

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21/08/2008 20:58:35
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208

Conan the Librarian™,

21/08/2008 21:04:36
See that Thatcher I'm going to drink a lot of beer on her grave, so I am.
209

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 21/08/2008 21:09:05
Karin & Conin. I would not even spend the time of day to visit Thatcher's grave but I do note that the likes of Unison and Unite are trying to loosen their belts when we are all having to tighten ours.
210

Nikostratos,

21/08/2008 21:12:19
#217 Conan the striker


That Thatcher took all i had and all i was gonna have..
211

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 21/08/2008 21:15:01
Well, well, well. Theres nothing like the truth fairy coming to the surface now and again to reveal the real Aik Salmon and then we find the regular correspondent gNATS disappear from view like snaw aff a dyke.

The man's a kidologist of gigantic proportions but he will gradually come apart at the seams and we will then see the "wee emperor hisnae ony claes on efter a'"!
212

Conan the Librarian™,

21/08/2008 21:20:38
218
We'll have to disagree then Jock.

The low paid council workers are being reamed by the very highly paid senior management.

They didn't go out on strike yesterday, they don't need to.

But somebody on less than £250 per week who are at the sharp end of the public ire, DOES.
213

Conan the Librarian™,

21/08/2008 21:26:34
219
Niko, I was made redundant twice in the eighties.(I had to sell the bike of my dreams :-()

The Tories destroyed Scotland's industries.

Do you want that to happen again?

Keep voting Labour then.
214

Nikostratos,

21/08/2008 21:54:28
#222 conan

O'i !Alex said the thatcher economic policys were good for scotland did he not.............

I had to sell my dreams......all of em..but i survived
215

European Scot,

21/08/2008 21:56:35
219 Nikostratos

" That Thatcher took all i had and all i was gonna have.. "

Niko, we share common ground at last ! !
216

Conan the Librarian™,

21/08/2008 22:03:52
223
Dinnae be daft Niko, a quote taken out of context by desperate journos.

As to your dreams how many did you have?

http://tinyurl.com/5as8gj
217

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 21/08/2008 22:04:59
221. Yeah, Conan, I reckon we will have to disagree on that one. I do note that the Council workers who would classify themselves as "professional" were also on strike.

The demarkation lines have altered a tad since the last time the unions flexed their muscles. How many strikers own their own properties these days and are now middle class? The old chestnut of low paid workers just doesn't wash anymore.

Everyone who works is working class.
218

iainm,

Ireland- a small independent country that doesnt 21/08/2008 22:16:05
Ho hum....

He was paraphrasing David Cameron's comment about where Thatcher had transformed economics he now wanted to be as radical in the social side of things. Didn't anybody spot this sneaky little quip for what it was? Or are Labour just delighted that by taking out of context they can spin something, neglecting also to point out that it is pure Thatcher economics that they themselves have indulged in whilst in Government for the last 11 years?
219

Conan the Librarian™,

21/08/2008 22:23:32
226
We are all in the same unions that voted for strike action; Remember Martin Niemoller Jock.

Believe me Jock there are still low paid workers living from payday to payday.Those of us who bought their houses ten or fifteen years ago pay a much smaller proportion of our income than than those paying rent today.
220

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 22:25:15
227 Daliel rober

250 years of engineering brought to an end by WW2. All manufacturing and industrial bases were converted to produce munitions. Harder to convert back in a bankrupt nation.

Was WW2 the conservatives fault? After all they were in government at the time.
221

Conan the Librarian™,

21/08/2008 22:32:55
230
Rather strange comment Soupy.

Are you adding systems engineering to your list of expertise?
222

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 21/08/2008 22:35:37
229, Conan. That is what I was meaning. When private rented accommodation is advertised it says for professionals. It is amazing how many people classify themselves as professionals.

The unions only represent themselves nowadays, requiring your dosh to keep themselves in a wage.

There are low paid jobs in private industry but you never hear about that.

The unions are going for the public sector and the multinationals because that is where the unions make their money. They do not care about the economic chaos they will start with their wage demands. If we all have to tighten our belts then so be it. If we all have to tighten our belts even further because some Unison and Unite members get more than is healthy then there will be a lot of resentment and possible backlash.
223

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 21/08/2008 22:44:05
The golden rule for asking for more. Ask for more when times are good and save for when times are bad. Never think that more is your right.
224

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 21/08/2008 22:47:46
It's all about the credit crunch - innit?
225

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 22:50:39
233

Yes, I have a lot of sympathy with that. Scotland is becoming a "busy fool" under the SNP/Labour hybrid.

Unfortunately, as napoleon said we are a nation of shopkeepers. 75% of our economy is services, 12% arts and entertainment. Our enigneering sector is shrinking but those in charge claim it is growing because the few of us left are more productive (in £ terms) due to technological advances.

Brown was okay for a bit. There were research and development allowanve tax allowances, some at 150% for SMEs at the beginning of this decade. Those helped. But apart from that htere has been nothing I've seen to encourage real growth.

There are tax reliefs a plenty for "owners". That is to say I could work for some private equity gits all day every day for peanuts and "stock" and if I hit it big, the "investors" (read gits) get all the cash. So all that is being grown at the end of this decade is the right to profiteer by the admin classes and not the right to buy nice "shiny things" to make new technologies.

But what to do? I think you hit the nail on the head. Grab a passport. France, Australia and Canada are screaming out for talent and are well placed to meet the needs of those looking for high-end work.
226

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 22:54:37
If McMadman's about, can you tell him Australia are also screaming out for pastry chefs? I think he's finding getting work hard.
227

,

21/08/2008 23:02:25
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228

Conan the Librarian™,

21/08/2008 23:03:16
232
Jock
My point Jock is that there is Unison and Unite members that get "less" than than what is healthy.

I've seen the backlash Jock.

All the folk that see a council worker having a smoke.

How dare he. I'm paying his wages and he dares to smoke when he should be working.

Council workers tend to interfere with what people wish to do;- Park, smoke, drop litter, build stuff, have loud music late at night, have pet cockroaches in their kitchens...etc.
229

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 23:10:22
Speaking of which. The SNP ministers have just forced the closure of our largest factory making wind power renewables.

Well done the SNP.

Congratulations. 100 engineering jobs finished.
230

,

21/08/2008 23:10:43
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231

,

21/08/2008 23:14:13
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232

Conan the Librarian™,

21/08/2008 23:15:06
243
Ok I'll bite Master; you are a cult here too.
Or something like it.
233

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 23:17:36
244 Master

I think that is what Salmond meant when he was bigging up thatcher today. He's gonna fork things up. Create more service sector jobs and admin people.
234

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 23:21:33
Hiya again poopypup.

As Hoots fandango so rightly said just recently:

""Hoots" Fandango, 12/08/2008 21:54:08

Name: Soup Kitchen
Age: Either 15 or 107
Gender: Doubtful
Politics: None of note
Education: Rodgered by a 6th former
Claim to fame: See above
Marital status: You must be joking. Who in their right mind?
Likes: Anything by a boy band
Dislikes: Sensible discussion
Employment: Between jobs
Favourite saying: You are stupid
Debating techniques: You are stupid
Fall back position: You are stupid
Previous monikers: The list is endless"

Aptly put.

At least I'm not a fraud claiming to be a masters with distinction physicist/accountant, fantasist. Who has not a clue about physics or accountancy.

Remember wee puppy:

You were asked a not very searching question about physics which you couldn't answer. You then gave an answer. Then you said

"But what has that proven? That I can google as well."

You did not have a clue. You are not telling the truth about being a physicist.

Cheerio fraudster.
235

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21/08/2008 23:23:59
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236

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 23:24:16
I should also acknowledge that whilst the Master and I may be poles apart on our politics and indeed on opposite sides most of the time in many threads, he is 150% absolutely stick on bullseye right about you in his comments regarding yourself at #242.

Well done Master. Have a virtual pint on me.

Poopypuppy, you have filled your nappy with nonsense.

The turbine factory is Danish owned, they have decided to close it, not the Scottish or indeed British govts. Come back when you are properly house trained, you clearly potty individual.
237

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 23:24:24
Thanks for another enthralling instalment.

The SNP has just put a turbine factory out of business.

The SNP got upset when it thought it had put trump out of business here.

I guess people like me can travel abroad to work, but I guess you will always nneed grass to mow, toilets to clean and beds to make for rich businessmen.

The SNP will find you a job soon. He likes thatcherism don't you know? There's no such thing as education, just a clock card and a bog brush for you!
238

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 23:25:12
249

It was planning permissions.

Trump good, renewables bad. See above.
239

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 23:26:32
#246

Of course, rather than public servants carrying out useful work for often a pittance and much less than the average wage, what the world really needs is a surfeit of allegedly qualified physicists majoring in accountancy on £40kpa.

Yes soup, the world really needs you, you are so much more socially useful than anyone working in the public sector. Not.
240

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 23:29:37
Poopypuppy

No mention of planning issues in the BBC scotland report on this. It reads:

"Scotland's only wind turbine tower factory, which employs 92 people, is set to close.

Danish company Vestas is to cease production at its factory, near Campbeltown, and invest in another plant in the Isle of Wight.

Vestas said the factory had been losing money. Production is expected to be run down over the next few months.

Details emerged as Vestas said demand for its wind turbines was up 67% on last year.

The news came amid a drive by the Scottish Government to boost renewable energy.

First Minister Alex Salmond announced last September that Scotland had gained the ability to produce more green energy than nuclear power.

Argyll and Bute MSP and Enterprise Minister Jim Mather said he planed to meet workers at the Vestas plant next week.

'Body-blow'

He expressed regret at the decision but said the government, and Highlands and Islands Enterprise, would do everything possible to try to save the operation.

Argyll and Bute Council leader, Dick Walsh, said the decision would hit the local area hard.

He said: "This factory has supplied many people with employment opportunities since it opened. The announcement will have a devastating impact on the whole community."

Mr Walsh said employment in Kintyre had already dipped, following the closure of Campbeltown ship yard and, more recently, the Jaeger factory.

He added: "In spite of this body-blow to the Kintyre economy, we are continuing to look at projects which may help to regenerate this fragile community,"

Don't let yourself be troubled by the facts, eh no.

Are you really promising to travel abroad to work ? Is there much call for accountant/physicists anywhere other than your fantasyland ?
241

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 23:29:56
253 McMadman

Physicists make electricty and shiny things fly and other shiny things go toot toot beep beep broom broom.

All if this is paramount to modern civilisation. I would have thought the SNP would prioritise this group of people over form filler and fancy gardening for people wanting to thump a small white ball around.

Just a thought.
242

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 23:32:24
Poopy

No mention in the hootsmon article of 19th August about planning issues either.

It read

"THE Scottish Government is being urged to send a delegation to Denmark in the hope of reversing a decision to close a wind turbine factory in Argyll.

An emergency meeting was called yesterday by Argyll and Bute Council following the shock decision by Danish company Vestas to shut its Scottish manufacturing plant in Machrihanish in Kintyre.

Council officials met with representatives of Highlands and Islands Enterprise (HIE) and Alan Reid, the Argyll and Bute MP, to discuss ways to save the factory and 92 jobs to protect the already-fragile economy.

However, no-one from Vestas attended with the company insisting any meeting takes place in Denmark. Dick Walsh, the council leader, said:

"Together we need to work hard and fast to do the best we can for this area of South Argyll during what is a very worrying and apprehensive time for everyone involved."

The council agreed to write to the government urging an urgent meeting with the Vestas chief executive."

Hmmmm poopypup. Are you perchance lying to us again, as with the masters degree in physics/£40kpa/accountancy qualification stuff ?
243

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 23:33:13
#254

How would you know, given you are demonstrably not a physicist and wouldn't know one end of a battery from another for example ?
244

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 23:36:33
256

The SNP won't grant planning permissions for the land-based turbines manufactured there.

They have also changed the location that they want the new off-shore turbines from west to east.

Renewables are unsustainable under the SNP. A lovely sentence, so ironic and a lovely jusxtaposition of ideas. Sums up the lunacy of the SNP.

But if you are a corrput former bankrupt? Come on down... the price is right.
245

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 23:38:00
Soup.

Have you a source, given neither the BBC nor the hootsmon seem to support your assertion ?
246

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 23:38:36
A bit like Brown's carriers, eh? Just tax people to the hilt and send our money abroad to import stuff?

We can do the forms! Look, I've got shoulder pads and a calculator, I'm a real life entrepreneur/businessman mummy! I have a phone and a desk and everything.
247

,

21/08/2008 23:38:36
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248

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 23:40:47
258 McMadman

Fret ye not my lil' begger. All will come clear to you in time.

It's like when I told you months ago that Salmond's dad refused to set foot in Westminster through hatred. There is a information lag to your empty head, wait a few days, weeks or months and then you'll know what I know today.
249

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 23:42:28
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/politics/Turbine-plant-closure-hits-Salmond39s.4397508.jp

I thought you said there was nothing on the planning processes on this site?
250

,

21/08/2008 23:43:37
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251

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 23:46:56
#262

Superceded by the references subsequent quoted by me from 19th August. Do try to keep up puppy...

No named source - even Vestas themselves - is claiming planning issues are a live factor. Only some apparent unnamed "insider."

Not exactly scoop of the century, puppypoopyscooper, is it ?
252

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 23:47:21
McMadman - do you know what is really sad about you?

You find it unbelievable that someone can hold more than one qualification.

In all seriousness, you need to try and overcome this. Maybe enrol in one of Labour's skillz akad?my and then grraduate onto sociology HNC with orienteering at some poly.

Then you could work for the cooncil for 25k. You'd be well clevah.
253

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 23:49:50
Or how about a SVQ III in media with pastry?

No, can I tickle your fancy with business admin and sock puppetry?

You could woek on Trump Boulevard with quality like that.

The SLabour/SNP hybrid have really enabled Scots to be world class when it comes to educations and jobs.
254

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 23:49:56
265

Not at all. I hold at least three myself but see no need to boast about them, unlike you.

What I find unbelievable is that you have any qualifications, let alone the rather bizarre physicist/accountancy mix that you claim to have but have so ably demonstrated in this and other threads that you do not.

You're not even capable of a Mcjob on minimum wage, child.
255

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 23:52:15
Soopypooper

Not many UK unis offering masters degrees with an opportunity to earn distinctions coupled with a supplementary course in accountancy.

Where did you buy your certificates from ? r did you steal them from a happymeal whilst on your shift flippin burgers ?
256

Conan the Librarian™,

21/08/2008 23:52:34
265
Hey Soupy, was that your career path?

Or did you work for Tony the Tiger, Its grreat to grraduate.
257

Soup kitchen,

21/08/2008 23:53:15
At least three?

English Standard grade d
Technology standard grade c
Woodwork A

Congrats on that spatula you made for yer ma btw! You really brought that A home.
258

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 23:54:34
"The SLabour/SNP hybrid have really enabled Scots to be world class when it comes to educations and jobs."

Hmm.

Liebore will have been in power most of your life from your comments on student loan debt etc. Whereas the SNP have been in power for about a year.

Yes, we can see. Liebore's classic cocking up of the education system. Aptly demonstrated by your fantasy qualifications, lies and rants.

See what happens if you vote liebore ? You get poopypuppy.

Keep it coming poopy, each time it adds votes for independence.

259

,

21/08/2008 23:54:54
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260

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 23:55:59
#270

I do not need to boast about fantastical qualifications in accountancy/physics unlike you. These sort of posts really only add to your well deserved reputation as a dribbling mentallist...
261

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 21/08/2008 23:57:30
I mean, hmm, I need to do a tax return. I know, I'll go and see a physicist.

Or - I have an interesting issue in regards to a quantum physics issue. I know - I'll ask an accountant.

Give it up tool, you're only harming yourself continuing to post.
262

,

21/08/2008 23:58:40
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263

Conan the Librarian™,

22/08/2008 00:00:39
272
McMadman shot the monkey right in the Red rosette with an arrow earlier.

Oo er missus...
264

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 22/08/2008 00:01:59
I stand corrected doonhamer. I see now midnight has come and soop has turned into a pumpkin and gone away. Not to be sorely missed.

I'm off too. No doubt there will be plenty of future opportunities to rip the ---- out of poopypup.
265

McMadman's third cousin,

The rest of the clan have been censored 22/08/2008 00:03:20
#276

LOL

Conan, saw your post conan as page refreshed. I'd have aimed for the monkey's baws too, but there isn't a camera sophisticated enough to locate them for me.
266

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22/08/2008 00:04:34
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267

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 22/08/2008 00:38:42
http://www.totalpolitics.com/magazine_detail.php?id=77

Time to read the whole article and see the bits that Gerri 'forgot'!!!!!
268

yockel,

22/08/2008 11:45:23
Mr Peev still struggling with the concept of ethics?
Perhaps he should stand for labour in Fife.
269

mr angry,

ayrshire 22/08/2008 12:51:22
Ochone, thanks for link, it comes across very differently when you read the real article rather than the slanted view in this article.
270

hertscot,

22/08/2008 15:23:22
Alex Salmond: Scotland 'didn't mind' Thatcher economics

That's because we all love being bent over and shafted.
271

BIG EYE,

Paisley 23/08/2008 00:04:37
I was thinking about adding a comment defending Alex Salmond.

Then I thought against what?

 

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