Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

 
 
Saturday, 19th July 2008

Free Monet Print with The Scotsman

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the The Scotsman site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Airlines 'are akin to arms dealers'in ethics stakes



Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 06 February 2008
AIRLINES have been labelled unethical by one of Britain's biggest investment firms, which plans them to blacklist them alongside arms dealers, pornographers and animal-testing laboratories.
Concern over the millions of tonnes of carbon dioxide produced by commercial aircraft has prompted the Edinburgh-based Standard Life to cease investing in carriers such as British Airways, Ryanair and EasyJet on behalf of tens of thousands of customers of its ethical funds.

The move, which could prompt other fund managers to follow suit, comes amid a fierce debate between green campaigners and the airline industry over the true impact of flying on the environment.

Standard Life Investments, which manages £588.5 million through its Socially Responsible Investment (SRI) range of funds, made the move after almost one-third of its customers who took part in an annual survey called for airline shares to be excluded.

Scottish Widows last night said it already excluded airlines from its own ethical-fund products.

But the decision provoked fury from the airline industry, which highlighted the number of domestic flights between Scotland and London used by investment firms.

Neal Weston, of the British Air Transport Association, said: "The financial services industry itself relies so heavily on aviation to conduct its business, and we are sad to see it turn its back on airlines. The government has confirmed that aviation industry covers its own environmental costs and that it is worth £11 billion to the UK economy."

Dan Welch, a writer for Ethical Consumer magazine, welcomed Standard Life's move and said other big firms might consider similar policies.

But he added that not all airlines were equally to blame.

"There is a debate to be had here," he said. "We prefer schemes which make a distinction between private charter airlines, where emissions per passenger are much higher, and airlines which carry lots of economy-class passengers and are therefore less inefficient."

Aviation accounts for 2 per cent of global carbon emissions and 13 per cent of emissions in the UK. But studies have shown that shipping accounts for more than 5 per cent worldwide, prompting the aviation industry to claim it is being made a scapegoat for climate change.

The Standard Life decision also exposes the often arbitrary nature of ethical boycotts. The change was made after 3,000 of the 39,000 holders of Standard Life ethical funds took part in an annual survey. About 30 per cent of respondents called for airlines to be blacklisted – a figure described by management as "significant".

Julie McDowell, the head of SRI at Standard Life Investments, said: "A panel of senior management and three ordinary investors made the decision based on feedback from the survey.

"We try and reflect ethical concerns of our investors as closely as possible, but we can't always make all the changes that individual investors would like."

She added that suppliers to airlines were not included in the boycott.

Companies which are already avoided by Standard Life's ethical funds include those which manufacture pesticide products, those which test products on animals, intensive farming companies, pornographers, weapons manufacturers, brewers, tobacco producers and those which derive 3 per cent or more of their revenue from gambling.

Ms McDowell added: "For 17 per cent of respondents to our survey, climate change was the top concern, while 53 per cent saw it as one of their top three concerns.

"Interestingly, 91 per cent of investors surveyed would prefer to invest in companies that are doing their best to reduce their climate-change impacts, whereas only 9 per cent of investors felt that it was better to completely avoid investing in companies that are significant contributors to climate change."

Julian Parrot, a partner with the Edinburgh financial advice firm Ethical Futures, said: "Scotland's financial services industry has not exactly blazed a trail when it comes to making ethical decisions, and there is plenty more that could be done, but this is a step in the right direction."

ETHICAL investments in Britain are now worth more than £6 billion, with up to half a million customers choosing to put their money only in stocks and shares of socially responsible companies.

A recent study by Ethical Investment Research Services (Eiris) revealed there are now almost 90 ethical retail funds available to UK investors, like those offered by Standard Life.

Dan Welch, of Ethical Consumer magazine, said most funds boycotted industries rather than specific firms, and that some consumers wanted to avoid unethical firms while others wanted to buy a stake in them to try to influence corporate policies.

He said: "Some funds work on the basis of negative screening – filtering out companies or industries which investors do not want be associated with. Others are more positive, investing in firms they support, for example those involved in renewable energy or which have led the way in changing their behaviour."

He added: "One of the top-rating ethical funds, run by the co-operative CIS, actually invests in BAE, which is obviously controversial. The idea is that by being part of the firm and trying to influence its direction, it can achieve more than by ignoring such companies and just allowing them to carry on what they are doing."

He added that many ethical funds avoided firms involved in alcohol, tobacco or pornography because the ethical market was originally dominated by churches and religious customers.

"There used to be a more moralistic theme than is the case now," he said.

An Eiris spokesman, Mark Robertson, said: "Growing concern over issues such as climate change mean more and more people are thinking about the impact their investments can have. In 2006, there were a record number of ethical options available to UK investors and significant increases in interest in ethical investment."

So is Standard Life right to classify the global aviation industry as an ethical pariah…?

YES

IT is undeniably a breakthrough when large institutions such as Standard Life choose not to back the aviation industry on ethical grounds.

The world's top scientists not only recognise that aviation already accounts for 13 per cent of the UK's contribution to climate change, but that there is no "fix" that can make aviation sustainable in the timeframe in which we need to tackle climate change.

By about 2037, aviation will account for Britain's entire carbon quota. Ethical investment in aviation just does not exist. Institutions are now recognising that any investment in aviation is an investment in the problem rather than the solution.

Airlines receive over £10 billion in tax breaks each year because of tax-free fuel and VAT-free tickets and planes. That's enough to buy over 30 new hospitals, build 2,000 new schools, put at least 450,000 new police on the beat, and pay the tuition fees of over three million students.

Most aviation growth stems from the demand of the wealthiest 5 per cent of the world's population, making 95 per cent of the global population bear the consequences.

Investing in aviation growth means supporting a massive increase in noise pollution for neighbouring communities to airports, it means denying the next generation from living in a world where they can breathe clean air, enjoy diverse ecosystems and eat healthy food.

Standard Life is putting other companies and the Scottish Government's green "attempts" in the shade and demonstrates that there are economic as well as environmental consequences from climate change.

• Dan Glass is a campaigner with environmental group Plane Stupid Scotland.


NO


MOST within the aviation industry recognise that aviation pollutes and that we must improve the environmental efficiency of today's operations and work on tomorrow's technologies.

The Stern review said that aviation accounts for 1.6 per cent of global greenhouse gas emissions, rising to 2.5 per cent in 2050, assuming no substantial technological breakthroughs. Given that the UK is responsible for just 2 per cent of the world's emissions, the impact of UK aviation on climate change is mathematically minimal. This is not an excuse for inaction, but aviation will only ever be a small part of the overall solution.

We are on the cusp of big advances in aircraft and engine technologies that will lead to dramatic reductions in emissions, which have not yet been factored into the environmental forecasts about our industry. In the meantime, airlines have an obligation to maximise their environmental efficiency (particularly by operating the cleanest available technology).

The same business model that gives us low fares (new aircraft, high occupancy rates, direct flights) also gives us environmental efficiency in the skies – EasyJet emits 27 per cent fewer greenhouse gases per passenger kilometre than a traditional airline on an identical route.

We also intend to play a leading role in improving the environmental performance of our industry. There is a lot to be done – reforming Europe's inefficient air traffic system, implementing a meaningful European emissions trading scheme, working on the next generation of aircraft, giving customers comprehensive environmental information and helping them to offset the carbon emissions of their flight.

• Andy Harrison is the chief executive of EasyJet


The full article contains 1514 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 05 February 2008 11:43 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Dumb Eye @,

06/02/2008 02:59:18
Standard Life is on thin ice when it comes to commenting on ethical standards!
Their treatment of policy-holders in the last few years could hardly be described as ethical. There is, or should be, more to ethics than headline grabbing & sound-bites.
2

tomrober,

Edmonton 06/02/2008 03:02:59
I agree with Dumb Eye on this. Investment firms taking stands on ETHICS ? Just try polling airline passengers, or anyone else on their opinions of "financial services" companies!
3

Kipling,

06/02/2008 06:54:16
Airlines when justifying their carbon output compared with other pollutors sound like drug dealers complaining that those who sell alcohol are equally to blame for car crashes. The transport, in this case Earth, is going to crash unless something is done to remedy the situation. That means by working from the top, that is the largest and most identifiable pollutors. As I've written before, an aircraft of any type is like a medical professional with dirty hands. You can't see the killer bacteria, and you may need the helping hands, but they bring death due to failure to clean up their act.

As for the greens, they need also to think of employment alternatives. Many people promote the polluting industries (& I include in this those involved in other environmental destruction such as overfishing and whalers, etc.) not because they believe in them per se, but underlying their marketing justification is a fear of losing their job.

Financial services companies are filled with very strange people I agree. It's a vacuous profession.
4

Cappo Del Monte,

06/02/2008 06:55:13
You have to laugh 3000 repled out of 39000, 7% in total actually bothered to reply from the ethical funds, and of thet 30% agree, so it whittles down to about 2% of the 39000.
standard life fly there employees all over the uk for short buisness hops, where trains would be much better suited, they are one of the biggest hypocrytical buisness in the uk. Years ago they swore blind they would move out of Scotland if the SNP got elected. No wonder their shares are nose diving. Bankrupt soon no doubt, beggin to to the government.
5

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 06/02/2008 07:53:29
I welcome ethics entering any business consideration.

I agree that flying, especially where land alternatives exist, is ethically dubious.

I note the new super airships that are coming on stream. Slower but far less polluting.
6

Iain fae Elgin,

London 06/02/2008 07:54:52
So they won't invest their ethical funds in airlines?

What about their non-ethical funds? Or does that mess up the pretty headline?
7

Unimpressed one,

06/02/2008 07:58:11
I think when people see the greens attending their lavish eco-junckets by rowing boats and avoiding using 'nasty' airlines, the rest of us might sit up and take notice. More chance that pigs will fly (without emitting CO2 of course! Bamsticks.
8

Chris W,

Argyll 06/02/2008 08:25:27
What a load of rubbish. More and more people are coming to realise that all this carbon footprint nonsense is a con. Standard Life are either clueless about the facts, or they are deliberately abusing the hysteria for their own benefit.
9

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

06/02/2008 09:06:14
Iain has a good point but they are damned if they do and damned if they dont.

Having a little "Ethical" trust is just a selling point whilst the real money still gets invested in the arms dealers, Bat industries and the like.

Life Assurance - or if you prefer a laymans term -gambling on human death.
10

U. Lukenatmepal?,

Airborne 06/02/2008 09:24:10
Just supposing that Standard Life decided to exit the airline sector for risk/reward reasons (because historically, airlines are better for buying and selling than investing in), but did not want to frighten the gullible punters in the process.

What better way than to conduct a 'survey', and invent some spurious pseudo-ethical justification for dis-investing in the sector. Takes minds right off the financial considerations, doesn't it.
11

sceptic,

06/02/2008 09:37:36
"Airlines 'are akin to arms dealers'"
Presumably air passengers are akin to mercenaries.
All these so called "environmentallists" in the hypocritical Al Gore mould jetting around the world to conferences in the holiday capitals of the world. Then justifying their disgusting behaviour by paying for the ludicrous "carbon offsetting" to salve their guilty consciences and in an attempt deceive the hoi polloi
12

Iain fae Elgin,

London 06/02/2008 09:54:09
I'd like to see the next eco-conference held in Glenrothes.

Oh no.....how would they top up their tans?
13

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

06/02/2008 10:20:13
I've came across and worked with a number of very well meaning NGO's.

They tend to be the worst as they are completely unaccountable.

Wee thing called human nature.
14

PJ,

Edinburgh 06/02/2008 10:52:42
Standard Life shouldn’t berate anyone about ethics, people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones! Europe's biggest mutual insurer in 2002 hacked the maturity payouts to investors in its pension and endowment policies by 15 per cent, which meant some customers faced a shortfall on their endowment mortgages.

But that didn't seem to faze the bosses of Standard Life, however. The chief executive, was paid a basic salary of £467,000, topped up with a performance-related bonus of £136,000. He also got a free pension for life of at least £300,000 a year, typical of fat cat or unethical executives creaming off huge wages and benefits for themselves.
15

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 06/02/2008 11:10:09
Whenever I fly to Europe or elsewhere I try to assuage by guilt at the pollution caused by airplane emissions by making contributions to ethical and green organisations and continuing in my uphill quest to be less wasteful, generate less garbage, and recycle, recycle, recycle AND reduce, and refuse to buy overpackaged goods and strawberries in February in Canada that have to be jetted in thousands of miles.

It is frightfully tedious at times but most nights I go to bed with a clear conscience after having recycled the TWO newspapers that I get delivered by passing them on to my neighbours.

Environmentalism and being "green" is now very trendy but I have been at it for about 10 years. It is irksome at times and you do meet wacked-out "greens" and they give a bad name to the whole movement to try and stem the decline of the quality of living on planet Earth.
16

Gothic Rose,

06/02/2008 11:14:11
What no more Red Arrows? Or is it only passenger flights, who do the damage?
17

YHOTA,

W Lothian 06/02/2008 11:27:04
There is no "investing" logic to the selection of shares for "ethical funds." The so called moral choices to be made in selecting companies or classes of share to be "in" or "out" needs to be influenced by people who see this dimension. What else can companies like Standard Life do but ask the question and respond on the basis of whatever answers they get. I am quite sure the majority of fund managers, including those at Standard Life do not think that investing in airlines, on whom the whole world economy, especially the poorer countries depend, is in any way unethical.
18

Phil C,

06/02/2008 11:34:05
Ethical funds are important for many investors in that they can feel more comfortable about investing in causes that matter to them. There must have been some anxiety expressed about airlines, so Standard Life deserve to be praised. The bitterness on here is easy to detect but hard to understand.

Between 2000 and 2003 the stock markets were in meltdown. This was to do with world conditions and the eejits in government. That's why Standard Life and other financial services companies had to keep bonuses at a realistic level. They had a duty to protect all policy holders, not just the greedy ones who expect all gain and no pain, who were clamouring to get their hands on their money for more than it was worth. The value of funds can go down as well as up we were all told repeatedly. If some chose not to listen, like some posting here, then more fool them.


Standard Life's ethics should not have been in question then and they shouldn't be now. The anger misdirected at life companies on here should instead be aimed at Tony and Gordon's Labour Party for their plundering of people's savings, gross mismanagement of the economy since about 2001, and all the damage they cause to industry through petty meddling and an overload of bureaucratic red tape.
19

,

06/02/2008 11:35:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
20

techpunk,

06/02/2008 11:41:05
would anyone like to invest in my oatmeal underwear company?
21

Spicey,

Glasgow 06/02/2008 11:51:56
#3
The drug dealers may have a point there! and i like the analogy with doctors.

Air travel should not be subsidised, and where it is taxed it should be based on emmission - the flat Air Passenger Duty does nothing to make airlines more effiecient with their emmissions.
22

John M,

Melbourne, Australia 06/02/2008 11:55:03
What about the ethical standards of those who can't prove that carbon dioxide is a significant contributor to global warming?

There's only one response to "The world's top scientists not only recognise that aviation already accounts for 13 per cent of the UK's contribution to climate change" - prove both that the scientists make that claim and that the claim is correct.

If the people making this claim can't prove it then they should be branded as liars.

23

Know All,

Gageac-Rouillac 06/02/2008 11:59:29
Of course non ethical funds can invest in anything they wish.However long before ethical became a buzz word many funds would not invest in tobacco or Sunday's NOW.More to the point it will make no difference to the world. UK produces 2% of climate change, yet around the world China, India, Egypt,Thailand,Eastern Europe continue to pollute so our efforts will be in vain. Secondly many of the changes in the planet have nothing to do with mankind
but are part of a natural change on earth about which we can do nothing.Remember Noah & his ark ! Normally people never believe politicians yet in this instance they do. Why?
24

Palegreen,

Away 06/02/2008 12:01:34
Like the reference to the wealthiest 5% of the world's population. I guess that covers 95% of the UK's population.
25

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

06/02/2008 12:23:01
Phil - nonsense.

Misselling of endowment policies.
26

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

06/02/2008 12:25:03


Get out of that sad business while you still can , though it sounds like you are institutionalised.
27

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 06/02/2008 12:26:12
Aircraft fuel/exhaust is unarguably a. polluting and b. wasteful of a dwindling finite supply.

Thus one can argue against flying without once mentioning global warming.
28

Iain fae Elgin,

London 06/02/2008 12:26:46
#18...we're not bitter. Just amazed that this company thinks that we don't notice their gross hyprocrisy.

It sounds like you're in an office on Lothian Road....
29

Memyself&I,

06/02/2008 12:32:00
Why is this news? The article clearly states that companies such as Scottish Widows are ahead of the game and have been excluding these stocks from their ethical funds for years.
This is nothing new.

What should be questioned is why Standard Life made the mistake of not excluding them in first place as they clearly should be.
30

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

06/02/2008 13:23:52
dont forget Scottish Widows was for some time the worst performing investment fund in.. well the UK officially but probably further afield.

Jocky Wilson couldve done better , and probably did.
31

Richard Lionheart,

06/02/2008 14:52:45
#4 You are of course quite right. The Scootsman are playing our mind with percentages again.

It is also interesting to note in line with The great religion of Environmentalism that the greenhouse gases figures quoted do not include those gases which are naturally omitted by the environment either. So when you really boil it down, the aviation industry worldwide omits about 2% of the 2% of human generated gases, which we are told is killing the world.

In a nutshell what this oppressive religion of environmentalism wants is the total extinction of human life on the planet.

Then again we always knew that Gordon Brown and Wendy Alexander are aliens!
32

sven,

US 06/02/2008 15:26:09
Real solutions are needed to resolve air quality issues: anything else is egotistical foolishness.
33

Phil C,

06/02/2008 15:35:20
#25 MA

So you think Standard Life and others deliberately missold policies? Give me a break!

I don't think endowments were knowingly missold before about 1997 (sounds like Wendy I know!). They were right at that time and Standard Life were leading performers, often paying double the target on maturing policies in the late 1980s and early 90s. Only since about 1998 has it been clear that there was a great danger of policies being short. Because insufficient warnings were given, policyholders have been compensated at huge expense to the companies, so stop greetin' Mario!

And Ian #25, I've got nothing to do with Standard Life. I'm just fed up with the moan brigade who expect everything for nothing and don't accept the consequences of their own bad investment choices. They're like people who vote Labour and then complain when they get crapped on- no backbone you see!!

34

Joe,

Inchkeith 06/02/2008 16:17:15
The real unethical culprits are motorists, let's get them sorted out first?
35

joppa jock,

Huntingdon 06/02/2008 16:43:56
My kids used to sneer at me when I pointed to the layer of cloud formed by breaking up vapour trails and tell them that the summer sky used to be blue. However, that hasn't stopped me flying to warmer climes at any opportunity and I don't lose sleep worrying about my carbon footprint. I'm waiting to see how long it will be before such names as Henry Ford, Frank Whittle and George Stevenson are branded as villains and barred from history lessons.
36

Euan,

Edinburgh 06/02/2008 17:28:42
This policy by Standard Life is ridiculous, simply ridiculous.

I wonder how many of their employees choose to take a foreign holiday once a year?, or how many Standard Life staff are flown all over the place for business meetings etc?

These companies have to understand that air carriers all over the world enable them to actually carry out their daily operations!, if it were not for them many a large company would be nowhere.

The whole 'green' thing is spiralling out of control.

They'll be banning Guy Fawkes night soon as all the bonfires will surely be producing far too many 'greenhouse gases'.

The world has gone MAD.
37

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

06/02/2008 17:42:56
Its about selling product i guess.

These edinburgh "bastions" are not much better than thugs in suits.

Phil , endowments were very crap products, sold to an unsuspecting public. True SL and the Wids didnt know better - but perhaps they shouldve ?

I will however take your advice about bad investments
;) EG guess where i will not put my money.

38

Harry Carnie,

British Columbia, Canada 06/02/2008 17:47:44

Horse "buns", what about cruise ships? They put out much more carbon dioxide per km. than a jet.

Asinine comments such as this, is what undermines "the greens" credibility.

The millions of private vehicles that commute every day,with one occupant, in cities around the world would be a much more valid concern.
39

treacleswamp,

06/02/2008 17:50:33
As an investment decision it makes long term sense. Surely it is only a matter of tie before there is an international agreement on aviation fuel tax, which will dent profitability. But how many who voted for a ban fly at least once a year?
40

tyson,

Severna Park 06/02/2008 17:53:52
How big is Bono's carbon footprint? What about Al Gore? HRH Prince Charles? Oh! I'm sorry. I should not call attention to the hypocrisy of my betters.
41

Oilbhoy,

Bakersfield, CA 06/02/2008 18:01:07
A quick hit to improve the carbon footprint of the airline industry would be to improve the whole air traffic control system that currently has planes 'stacked' in holding patterns waiting to land. Waiting in holding patterns accounts on average to 15-20% of the flight time. Making this system more efficient would get the planes out of the air and their engines switched off quicker, cutting the carbon emissions significantly.
42

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 06/02/2008 18:15:14
The solution is a biofuel to replace paraffin. Some international oil companies are trying hard to make a biofuel to replace Jet A-1 and other turbine fuels, (which involves satisfying a large number of standards: e.g. volatility vs pressure, viscosity vs temperature, ability to contain biocides, flame temperature, water solubility, solid residue), while others are not lifting a finger. They should bear in mind that the first comapny to do so stands to make a lot of money. Biofuel is the answer.
43

Iain fae Elgin,

London 06/02/2008 18:15:24
I can't believe I'm about to do this but here goes....

Prince Charles sent a sent a video message to the last eco-conference he was supposed to attend, citing the obvious, and stating this was the way to communicate on this issue over long distances.

He's still and @rse though.
44

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 06/02/2008 18:26:55
I am guilty of using short-haul flights. Why? Well firstly, if you want to go from e.g. Amsterdam to Dublin, then you could take two ferries and four trains, taking a couple of days to get there. Or you could fly and take less than 2 hours. Over the centuries a few of us, more observant than the rest, have noticed that the UK and Eire are islands. Ferries are slow and I would rather be at my destination.
Secondly the British rail system has just got to improve. Once I had to travel from Birmingham (New St) to London when the service fell apart. I remember waiting for hours at Brummies - 5 hours actually - & then when you look at airline ticket offers which are actually CHEAPER than the rail service - well, it's no contest, is it? If the UK had fast, clean, reliable trains that weren't overcrowded I would always use them - but as it is... In fact the rail service should have received massive government investment instead of being privatised. I wince when I see & hear foreigners who are obviously frustrated & angry because their valuable holiday time in the UK is being wasted in some bleak railway station.
45

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 06/02/2008 18:35:06
#43 Iain fae Elgin: Well, on this score he's right. Video conferences ought to replace travel as much as possible. My Dad was once asked to lecture students in the USA. So he simply went to a local video-conferencing centre and gave it to a lecture hall of students through the electronic system - live & fully interactive, questions & all. So it can be done if you have reliable electronic communications.

As for Oor Charlie, I disagree. I'm a republican, not a royalist. Charlie is a victim of his birth, & I'm sure he'd much rather be a Phil Drabble type (not that I expect you to remember Phil Drabble) than a prince. Chalrie tries very, very hard, & like any other citizen he's entitled to his opinion. Sure - he stuffed up his marriage, but then look at the pressure he was under! I think Charlie would thrive as a non-royal - absolutely thrive. Sue Townsend, for one, agrees. (Wish she hadn't gone blind.)
46

RFM,

Chicago 06/02/2008 18:52:24
It is astonishing to me that the people of the country that gave the world Adam Smith, the father of economics, fail to read and understand what is being put forward by Standard Life.

The Scotsman news article says very clearly that Standard Life is implementing a policy of its investors. Of course the investors understand that they are likely to lose money by withholding investment funds from airlines; the point is that their commitment to what they perceive as pollution of the world environment outweighs their concern and may require them to forgo maximum profit on their investments. They deserve congratulations, not criticism.

Would the complainers and all of these people crying hypocrisy feel better if they were told by the wealthiest 5% of their citizens to just suck it up and breath as best they can, and die at a young age if they can not? Are there really people in this day and age so out of touch with reality they rant about requiring the highest and best proof of global pollution before it should be accepted as fact.Is it really possible they have no knowledge whatever of environmental conditions in such places as Bulgaria, Romania and former East Germany, just to name a few. Have they forgotten what the coal mining and iron industrial towns of the UK were like only a few generations ago?

Unbelievable!
47

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 06/02/2008 19:35:10
#46, RFM Chicago: You're years out of date. Eastern Europe has been put in the old zinc tub and given a rub-a-dub-dub, behind the lugs and 'twixt the legs. You wouldn't recognise it. The USA & China are vying for the "Auld Reekie" award. The Romanian countryside is quite something, and so too Slovakia, Bulgaria, Hungary, Poland etc. In fact due to technological leapfrog that has bypassed much of the messy development in the west the old Eastern Bloc has some ecological gems. Sadly now the capitalists are moving in wholesale, these green spots are threatened. Perhaps worst among these is the threat to the last substantial remnant of the old broad-leaved forest that covered Europe, which is on the border between Germany and Poland. How the Germans can bear to chop the trees down is way beyond me. The forest has European bison & an animal very cimilar to the original aurochs, if I recall correctly. Not for long?!
48

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 06/02/2008 19:43:13
I see Richard Branson is doing his utmost to destroy what remains of the world's viginity by raping it with his sub-orbital phalluses, which will soon be ejaculating their way to the border of space, only the ultra-wealthy being able to experience momentary orgasms as they delight in the idea of the wicked stuff showering down on plebs below. Does the ticket price include carbon offsets? And even if it did, would these offsets be real, meaningful offsets, or merely there to salve the conscience of the masturbonauts? If not, then Richard Branson is a filthy lout - as filthy as this posting.
49

Phil C,

06/02/2008 19:58:32
#37 Mario

You really are a bit OTT in your attitudes. Most people who have invested with 'these thugs in suits' have done perfectly well thank you. They must have done something pretty nasty to you!

Only latterly have endowments become crap investments for mortgages. I'm really glad that you are learning about investments. People like you are normally happiest with their money under their pillow, so they can hug and kiss it every now and then. At least then you can't blame everyone else when you lose it!

50

Charlie Ferrier,

Hamilton 06/02/2008 23:15:09
#49 Phil

I think you are deluding yourself about the finance companies - they are only there to make a profit for their shareholders and bonuses for themselves. They will continuously come up with financial instruments to improve volume and income.

Endowments were a problem from when they first started to market them. I have had one for years which is only going to pay out half of the original estimate - yet the low risk portfolio level that I chose has performed to date on average at the expected return levels they assured me we would get.

The reason for not paying out to the level they have promised is that they ensure that they pay themselves first even on the downtimes - reducing the starting point for your money when the upswing happens.

If these companies were that ehtical they would offer financial instruments which only paid them on performance say 30% of any increase they bring to the value of your investment.

As for ethics - I think the ethical investment portfolio's is just another market segment to these companies - without it they have less total volume - and with it they have the beauty of an investor segment that expects a lower return!!

Further - the US is the biggest single polluter on the planet between its consumerism and its warmongering. The best thing that ethical investors could do is stop investing in US or US associated businesses and form the whaling point of view in Japanese businesses.

Initially this could be achieved by simply by not buying any US or Japanese products
51

Dunnie,

Canada 06/02/2008 23:38:43

48 - Caora - Christ on a bike! You missed your calling. You should have been a porn-pulp writer.
52

Yankee girl,

USA 06/02/2008 23:42:28
48 Caora - Dunnie's right. How you managed to work all that in one paragraph is nothing short of amazing.

How are ya, Dunnie?
53

Dunnie,

Canada 06/02/2008 23:50:33

Yankee Sweetie - I'm just fine. Have a had a great day. Solidified an account to a further 6 mos of work. Got a positive feedback on a major speech I wrote.

Am halfway through a bottle of 1999 ChateauneufdePape.

Life is good.

How is your decoder ring working? Hope you got my previous message that Chardonnay is not only permitted in the ranks but encouraged.

Regards and hugs, Dunnie.
54

Yankee girl,

USA 06/02/2008 23:55:38
Hey, Dunnie sweetie. Congratulations for all those accomplishments - certainly worth a wee sip.

I didn't get your post from yesterday - the Scotsman cleaned house and deleted the entire thread. But, it's good to know about the Chardonnay!
55

Dunnie,

Canada 07/02/2008 00:03:53

Right. Have just received official commonique that you have been promoted to rank of Lt.( that is pronounced Leftenant not Lootenant - though my French training tells me that Lootenant is more correct, however, standards must prevail).

Congrats. Tradition says that you must stand drinks at the Mess.

Obviously, I am well into the 2nd half of the plonk.
56

Yankee girl,

USA 07/02/2008 00:10:05
I'm honored sir. Just to be clear, though, you're not saying that I'm a tenant of the loo are ye? ;)

I'll be in the Mess, with a fistful of cash - drinks on me all round.
57

Dunnie,

Canada 07/02/2008 00:21:04


No, my dear, you have always been on a pedestal. Perhaps that is why your MacKee training was somewhat more demanding.

Your flirtacious behaviour with the likes of The Spook from Leith caused some concern. However, I was able to dispel any doubts by saying that the Spook was a Tranny.

Protocol demands that you name place and time of your RTPOYC event. RTPOYC - Request The Pleasure Of Your Company.

58

Yankee girl,

USA 07/02/2008 00:38:23
Ha! I think you've just admitted to being one of those fake monikers the other day. I thought that was you. I also thought Spook was one of them - he's a little more, shall we say, distinctive?

But, alas, I think he's dumped me. He never calls, he never writes, he never says hi in the forum. Unless they're all strangers masquerading as Spooks in one form or another. I can't keep up.

59

Yankee girl,

USA 07/02/2008 00:53:28
Dunnie - I'm off to find some Chateauneuf de Pape.

Enjoy the rest of yours!!!

:)
60

Dunnie,

Canada 07/02/2008 00:53:37

Yankee Girl - Ok. Now, I am totally confused.

I am not a fake moniker. Thought that was fairly straight from the first time you said you were interested about bridges as you are an engineer.

Sorry. Will back off completely.

61

Dunnie,

07/02/2008 01:18:19
*Please enter your comment*
62

Hamish MacBeth,

NZ 07/02/2008 08:17:41
As usual the head up the @rse brigade concerning Global Warming are out in force today. You people all seen to slag off anything that the Green movement campaign for, and with the same old crap: climate scientists scare mongering just to get more grant money for research. I’ve seen the Great Global Warming Swindle, and I wasn’t convinced.
Have a look at the following link, maybe it will open your eyes a little, but probably not.
http://www.durangobill.com/Swindle_Swindle.html
63

Yankee girl,

USA 07/02/2008 15:50:57
61 - Whoa, Dunnie! I hope you check back here. Gosh, I'm sorry - you completely misunderstood what I was saying.

The other day I was in a thread and someone said something that sounded like you, so I assumed it was you in disguise. Please don't back off, my friend. I enjoy our conversations too much!
64

RFM,

Chicago 07/02/2008 17:47:08
#47 Caora

I don't think so. Look at these web press releases, one dated today, the other three years ago. You might think that east europe has cleaned up its act, but...well read for yourself.
http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=90150
http://www.wecf.eu/english/articles/2005/07/air_pollution.php
65

Dunnie,

Canada 07/02/2008 22:01:35

64 - Yankee Girl -

No worries.

Just understand one thing - I have never posted - and never will post - under another moniker.

That is one of the main reasons why I left these threads for some time.

Entering into online debate or the exchange of info can be very challenging and informative.

I have learned a lot since first posting some months ago.

I have come to respect deeply-held views, delighted in some of the humour and have gone away incredulous at the ignorance and rancour displayed by too many.


 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 


Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.