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Published Date: 11 September 2008
SIR Kenneth Calman will take his devolution commission to England to find out whether there would be a backlash south of the Border against more powers for the Scottish Parliament, it emerged yesterday.

The Calman Commission was set up by the three main Unionist parties at Holyrood to review the devolution settlement and explore new powers for the Scottish Parliament.

Sir Kenneth, who chairs the commission, said yesterday that he wanted to take
evidence in England because any major changes to the powers of the Scottish Parliament – particularly in control over taxes – would impact on England.

The commission is likely to take at least one evidence session in the north-east of England, but may also travel further south if the demand is there.

Sir Kenneth also revealed yesterday that he was looking into the option of a second chamber – or at least a new committee to scrutinise legislation – for the Scottish Parliament.

If, as seems likely, the Calman Commission recommends that Scotland take control of new tax powers – possibly including corporation tax and stamp duty – this could have a significant impact on the economy of the north of England.

There have also been increasingly vociferous criticisms of Scotland's funding allocation from Westminster from English MPs unhappy that Scots get more per head every year than the English.

Sir Kenneth wants to ascertain whether these sorts of complaints would ease off if Scotland had responsibility for raising money as well as spending it.

The Calman Commission started its public evidence sessions yesterday, holding the first one in Glasgow. Others will follow around Scotland and now, it seems, at least one in England.

Sir Kenneth said: "We have not had a lot of submissions from outside Scotland, but we have had some. These are quite important. So as we take evidence, we will want to take evidence from outside Scotland – somewhere in the north of England, for example, would be an appropriate place to do that. And perhaps further south as well."

He said submissions received so far did not suggest an anti-Scottish "backlash" in England.

But he added: "I think from my own contacts – and I lived in the north of England for nine years, for example – that there are questions there that would be helpful to get some answers, and I think that's what we will do.

"Questions like: how has devolution worked? What impact has there been in England? If you were to change anything like financial accountability, what impact would that have?"

One issue raised by several of the submissions has been the need for more scrutiny of legislation and the possible creation of a second chamber for the Scottish Parliament. Sir Kenneth said: "It is an area we will have to look at. The second chamber is not the only model, there are other models – scrutiny committees, for example."

Sir Kenneth said that one message of the interim report would be that more could be done with the parliament's existing powers.

He said: "I do not think a lot of people in Scotland know what the powers are, how they can be used and how they can be used more effectively. That is likely to be one of our messages – let's look at what we can do in Scotland, what we can do a lot better."

BACKGROUND

THE Calman Commission which is reviewing the devolution settlement has now been sub-divided into three sections – one looking at finance and tax powers, one looking at the relationship between devolved and reserved issues and the other examining relations with other parliaments, including the European Parliament.

It will publish an interim report at the start of December, which will set out the basic themes the commission is examining and the topics being discussed. It will publish its final report next year.

The commission is running in tandem with the "national conversation on independence", which was established by the SNP government.

Despite reports of poor communication and distrust between the two consultations, Sir Kenneth Calman said yesterday that he found the responses to the SNP's consultation very instructive and informative. He said: "The 'national conversation' I read on a nightly basis and it's a very helpful document and I hope they are finding our discussions equally helpful."







The full article contains 718 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 10 September 2008 10:25 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Devolution
 
1

allknowing,

11/09/2008 00:12:03
So we now need the permission of the english public before we have more powers!!!

Mmmm.... how long now until 2011?
2

Senga Jean,

11/09/2008 00:17:22
Leave the English alone.They are not the cause of the problem. This is a Scottish problem only solvable by Independence!
3

Conan the Librarian™,

11/09/2008 00:28:18
3
Axe grinding is allowed.Within reason.
4

ThomasP,

11/09/2008 00:32:06
Scottish Nationalism will be more popular when this gets out.

England are not our masters, why do we need to ask their permission about matters that do not concern them? This is Scotland, not England. We live here, they live in England. We govern our country, we are not dictated to.
5

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 11/09/2008 00:36:05
Fek off Calman, Burley just got us through in Iceland.
A nation again!!
6

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 00:36:19

D'oh the Donkey says!!...

WHY BEND DOWN TO THOSE THAT, OPPRESS US,?
7

Vivas,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 00:38:25
Calman tugs the forelock to Britannia, and with his nose to the ground, is rodgered by John Bull.

XXX rated Scottish cringing of the most craven kind.
Pathetic.



8

ThomasP,

11/09/2008 00:39:23
#7

No, I am not.

I never mentioned Independence, or how a settlement would be reached between Scotland and the rest of the UK, once Scotland leaves.

I simply disagree that we need to communicate with England on matters that are Scottish.

"If, as seems likely, the Calman Commission recommends that Scotland take control of new tax powers – possibly including corporation tax and stamp duty – this could have a significant impact on the economy of the north of England."

Who cares if it effects north of England. England will have to be more flexible if Scotland becomes competation. Afterall, competation can only be good for both sides of the border.
9

Guga II,

Rockall 11/09/2008 00:42:47
So much for the Calman Unionist Commission. They are under the impression that we need to ask the permission of the English before we do anything.

Still, this is a typical Unionist attitude. We, in Scotland, are still considered a colony by the Unionists and, as such, we need our masters' permission to be able to do anything.

The sooner we are fully independent, and in charge of our own destiny, the better.
10

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 00:51:55

#11,

Why ask England,? (that's what my post meant @#9)

Pray Answer the Question!
11

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 00:54:48

'oops' sorry wrong! ignore my comment! for some reason it read my #9 as #8 at time of posting.
12

Peeablo,

UKSSR 11/09/2008 01:06:03
Why not go and ask the French or the Germans too !!!
13

,

11/09/2008 01:10:58
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Reason:
14

somerferg,

perth 11/09/2008 01:15:20
The ONLY question I would be asking them Hambo is if they would like to sent a representative to attend the Independence Day celebrations in Edinburgh on - 30 November 2011 sounds good!!
15

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 01:19:34

a proud doonhamer ~21,

Exactly! Thats Why The 'D'oh' the "Donkey" said, what he did in post....#9!.

(got it right this time, I think) (#8,#9)
16

craigy,

11/09/2008 01:32:36
ask the english for their thoughts....have we not been here before, 1290ish? look what happened then.
do we never learn?
17

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 01:36:31

Ask Margret Thatcher, she might be worth listing to!

But anyone else? is a Question!
18

Guga II,

Rockall 11/09/2008 01:39:39
#27 Charlie.

I thought she was dead? Or is she still walking amongst us?
19

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 01:40:19
Wake up Maggie
I think I got something to say to you;
it's late September and I really should be back at school.
I know I keep you amused
but I feel I'm being used

oh
Maggie
I couldn't have tried anymore.
You lured me away from home
just to save you from being alone.
You stole my heart and that's what really hurts.
The morning sun
when it's in your face
really shows your age

but that don't worry me none
in my eyes you're ev'rything.
I laughed at all of your jokes
my love you didn't need to coax

oh
Maggie
I couldn't have tried anymore.
You lured me away from home
just to save you from being alone.
You stole my soule
that's a pain I can do without.
All I needed was a friend to lend a guiding hand!!
20

Edward,

11/09/2008 01:41:58
Unbeleivable!
Who gives a flying fig what the English think! I also think the English couldnt give a monkey's either
Calman is such a time wasting idiot, only this commission could be dreamed up and foisted on Scotland by Labour , The Tories and the Libdems
21

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 01:43:15

Guga II ~28,

Correct! its her Ghost!

She 'haunts' us still! :(
22

Team Scotland,

FC UK No! 11/09/2008 01:44:55
This is tantamount to an admission that the Calman Commission is not about improving the effectiveness of the Scottish parliament so much as saving the Union. Keeping what they can and conceding what they must. The piece on Newsnight regarding the shoddy way in which the Free healthcare issue was dealt with by Brown and Darling, suggests financially punishing the people of Scotland when the Scottish Government (Even if it is Labour) passes legislation they disapprove of, is policy.

Now the tactic is, rather than be seen to be conceding on issues they oppose for England, they are prepared to hand over at least some of the levers of financial power. The principled reason for looking at tax raising powers would be the better governance of the people who elect that parliament. It seems at least in part its effect in appeasing disgruntled voters in England. Cooperating with such a body will only help them concede a little less. It is a focus group.

Calman Commission

I nail Commons Scam (anag.)
23

Graham Simpson,

Vancouver 11/09/2008 02:02:55
Kenneth Calman (hate that title Sir and all that it implies) is a Scot of high distinction and merit and the quality gf person we need in order to build a better Scotland. Regrettably he has become an anglophone with his 9 years at Durham university and a knighthood and now decrees that we must now ask the English how they feel about our legitimate and long contested right to independence. What does it matter how they feel! It is a decision only for the Scots!

Kenneth... Why? Why? Why?
24

Royster,

11/09/2008 02:46:19
What a mess this devolution is. Holyrood must be closed down with Scots given a vote on independence. Either fully in the union or fully out.
25

nolimits,

Far North 11/09/2008 02:54:25
Why not just unilaterally declare independence and be done with it. What are the southerners going to do, shut off your power, natural gas, and other utilities? I guarantee that it would separate the men from the boys!
26

Wisnaeme,

11/09/2008 02:56:40

Many English folk and others living living in England couldn't give a flying f***, right enough. Many are more concerned about earning a crust and matters affecting them in their own surroundings and environment. Indeed many folk think what Scots do or don't do in their own country is their own business.
Though word is trickling through that those folk in the Scottish government seem to be on the ball.

..and could we have some of that kind of consideration from Westmidden.

Many folk wish the Scot's well actually and are rather pained at the meaningful choice they themselves have.
Mediocre really, with only more of the same to choose from. Highly unlikely there will be a backlash of any significance.

But Westmidden, Whitehall and the London eccentric establishment; that is a different matter altogether.
Then there is the problem of North Britons message boys and little helpers, who would go to he11 in a hand cart before submitting to reason and revolutions irreversible conclusion.
Backlash? Aye no doubt about that and with all the forces they can muster to deny the slipping away of control of North Briton. Kicking and screaming No, No, No. It's our North Briton and nobody else but. Who do those jumped up upstarts in that Scottish parliament think they are? Nope, Scotland will have to be dragged away from the kicking and screaming ones who'll use every dirty trick in the book to delay the the process.

Meanwhile isn't it curious so many English folk are now living, working and have made Scotland their home these days. Speaks volumes, that does.

Nope. we've too much in common with English folk but as I wrote, it's those who have the most to lose who are the danger.

... and there has been an insidious backlash going on for the best part of 300 years by the way against anyone who dares to challenge the rights of the London establishment to rule and for the establishment to profit from that rule. These are the creatures that will be the nuc
27

,

11/09/2008 03:52:59
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28

Dougie Douglas,

Just asked the Aussies 11/09/2008 04:42:13
Why limit it to England if we are going to ask others how we are ruled or rule ourselves?

Just asked a workmate and he can't see any problem with independendence at all.

'Why wouldn't ya', etc, etc

Truly bizzare stuff from the Unionists again, it's as if they have been issued a book entitled 'fastracking scottish independence'
29

Royster,

11/09/2008 04:59:28
My Auntie Jennie lives in York. Does he want her phone number? I think she has been to Scotland but I'm not sure.
30

Pilrig.,

Livingston 11/09/2008 06:06:01
11 - and you slaver a lot of p*sh. Away and buy a new mobile phone.
31

Royster,

11/09/2008 06:31:07
It's as if they have reduced the make-up of the UK to some naff homework project (viz the National Conversation).
32

LEAL,

11/09/2008 06:51:36
The union would work a lot better if England reduced its population to a level which its natural resources can support,say 5 million.
33

Colkitto,

River Clyde 11/09/2008 07:02:46
Calman commission is setting itself up for one almighty fall.
34

ennerdale27,

sale cheshire 11/09/2008 07:05:46
Asking an OPINION is materially different from asking permission.
Going off on tangents in this manner does not add to the discussion.
At least as far as our friends in LOndon are concerned,
what makes anybody believe they can think?
35

james 1st,

hamilton nz 11/09/2008 07:05:56
the north of england has been as downtrodden as the scots by the greedy people of westminster and the south east of england london subsidy junkies
perhaps the northerners should be lookin at leaving england and joining scotland to make a decent sized country. this would be an enormous benefit to both areas
36

james 1st,

hamilton nz 11/09/2008 07:05:57
the north of england has been as downtrodden as the scots by the greedy people of westminster and the south east of england london subsidy junkies
perhaps the northerners should be lookin at leaving england and joining scotland to make a decent sized country. this would be an enormous benefit to both areas
37

Royster,

11/09/2008 07:15:19
#48. It would actual make more sense for NZ to become part of Australia. NZ is going nowhere at the moment.
38

Guga II,

Rockall 11/09/2008 07:29:38
#36 Royster.

Either way, there is no hope that anyone in Scotland will vote for your UKIP/BNP mob.
39

Royster,

11/09/2008 07:32:30
#50. Ah, the slur. Proof you cannot win the argument.
40

eric,

Lothian 11/09/2008 07:40:56
To see if there would be a backlash! HELLO theres been one going on for a while noe.
41

Nevsky,

Moscow 11/09/2008 07:43:23
We are constatntly told that the Scottish economy has little significance and the only real contribution is oil, if that is the case then how come this statement:

'If, as seems likely, the Calman Commission recommends that Scotland take control of new tax powers – possibly including corporation tax and stamp duty – this could have a significant impact on the economy of the north of England'
42

Scotsman in Dublin,

11/09/2008 08:00:59
Typical Labour Lackie response, 'Ask the English' what we should do.
43

drunken proffet,

Tassy 11/09/2008 08:02:26
You cannot declare your independence from England and leave it at that. How about those Scottish Aristocrats that received megabucks for selling Scotland's independence. What was the figure, 20,000 in gold, present value maybe 20 million. I think they should repay it, just to be fair.
44

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 08:07:44
If he can't get an audience in Stirling what makes him think that he'll get one south of the border ? After all the only vote they had on devolving power to an English region was "No!".
45

Brodric,

11/09/2008 08:16:52
If we ever needed it (ugh) this is the latest proof that there can be no objectivity from any sort of UK commission on whether or not Scots should have more power/be independent etc.

Calman is out to discredit and undermine, not to examine anything real.

Down with Calman
46

,

11/09/2008 08:17:14
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47

,

11/09/2008 08:26:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
48

P Rayner.,

Essex 11/09/2008 08:34:17
Most people dahn 'ere are totally obsorbed by fat guts salmon, Scotland, devolution blah blah blah. I think it better to concentrate minds of getting hold of a few quid, a job, a car, even a fortnight at Clacton.
49

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 11/09/2008 08:35:10
Whilst I daisagree with calman ruling out Independence they seem to be sensibly exploring other options. Scotland must be the country which has had more deomocratic opportunity to discuss and become Indepnedent than anyb other in history. Yet the populace still do not want it. we are not oppressed, slaughtered or spied on, so please lets see where the democratic process takes us, we can have it but only if we want it.
50

Nevsky,

Moscow 11/09/2008 08:38:10
Don't remember this happening under devolution, were the English consulted..i don't think they were as far as i recall.

What is the point?
51

scottish person,

paisley 11/09/2008 08:41:02
What I find strange is that no one realised that the calman commission was set up to keep the union. Remember the three stooges along with calman at its inception. I think bendy was the liebour leader at the time. They go through so many its hard to keep up.
52

Nevsky,

Moscow 11/09/2008 08:42:27
64#

A fortnight in Clacton, well that's an end to the independence debate then, what more could the Scots possibly want?

Better education, propsperity and not lumbered with the archaic elephant of Wesminster maybe?
53

Foresight,

By the Water of Leith 11/09/2008 08:50:39

This comes as no surprise, after all he got his kinighthood for services to England.
54

inkster,

11/09/2008 08:54:43
Troll #64 P Rayner.,
Essex 11/09/2008 08:34:17
Most people dahn 'ere are totally obsorbed by fat guts salmon, Scotland, devolution blah blah blah. I think it better to concentrate minds of getting hold of a few quid, a job, a car, even a fortnight at Clacton.

Obsorbing comment

sm753 #58 quote "beloved Fat Minister"

Ditto
55

Tynietiger,

11/09/2008 09:00:29
Future's Trust like problem with LIT merely highlight the lack of powers of the Scottish Government.

These are exacerbated by UK Government's (why can't BBC distinguish between them) withholding of monies to pay for police pensions and from Scotland's share of renewables fund.
56

gus1940,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 09:00:33
Your 'report' states that The Canute Commission held its first public evidence session in Glasgow yesterday.

What does The Anti-Scotsman give us? A monologue from Calman.

Did any members of the public turn up? If so how many?

Were they allowed to say anything? If so what did they say?

If as was stated this was a public evidence session why are we not being told what was said?
57

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 09:06:01
The usual frantic yapping from the Nats. Do you lot actually ever READ articles or is it just some sort of Pavlovian response to anything remotely political? Calman isn't asking anyone in England's permission to do anything. He's CONSULTING, asking for opinions. As you are all so quick to point out, the Commission is looking at potential constitutional change WITHIN THE UNION. As such, it's entirely rational that he ask for the thoughts of the other partners within it, including our nearest neighbours and biggest market. If the remit of the Commission was leaving the Union, then, quite rightly, that's no-one else's business but ours.
58

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 09:19:16
#75

Er, see the big fancy building in London with the muckle clock tower? I seem to remember the Scotland Act was discussed at great length by MPs from right across the UK before being agreed on.
59

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 09:25:27
In visiting the North-East of England and taking external evidence for more powers for Holyrood, the Calman Commission might well be attempting to set a precedent?

IF, it ever came to a referendum on Scottish Independence, and it is a massive IF, Westminster might well attempt to introduce a similar dual referendum in England, and create another insurmountable hurdle to prevent any possibility of the Scots leaving the Union?

However, IF the Scots should ever vote on seceding from this unitary state, then it would also have to involve devolved Northern Ireland and Wales.

It goes without saying that the Protestant majority in Ulster are never likely to vote to leave the UK State but Wales, which is presently governed by a Plaid Cymru/Labour coalition, is another matter?

Westminster could well open a constitutional
can of worms leading to the dissolution of
this unitary state?

60

Farky,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 09:27:26
Do the Catalonians ask other neighbouring regions of Spain what they think of extra powers for Catalonia? I think not! This is quite extraordinary in my view. Calman needs to ask the Scottish people - and no one else!
61

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 09:28:15
73 Draco Was a Wimp.
What has the opinion of the English got to do with improving governance of Scotland ?
62

Highland Mighty©,

11/09/2008 09:28:46
LOL. How many of the nats on this page actually READ the entire article instead of just blowing yet another gasket as soon as they read the headline?
63

Truely English,

11/09/2008 09:28:52
It is only right and proper that the English people are also consulted as we are all part of the British Nation with the same English language and culture. What else would one expect?
64

Ken Mac,

Glasgow 11/09/2008 09:30:33
Calman is a joke. This commission is all about preserving the Union and nothing else. Why ask for opinion in England? If you get a negative answer what do you do? Say, sorry we'll not bother then, sorry to disturb you. Totally pathetic.

#82 Truely English. You certainly are.
65

Yeti,

11/09/2008 09:31:00
This is a fair indicator that meaningful fiscal autonomy is not on Calman's radar. If it were, there would be no reason why there could, or should, be a backlash from the English. They would get what many of them seem to want - an end to Scottish "subsidy"
66

Highland Mighty©,

11/09/2008 09:31:37
84. The SNP is all about independence and nothing else!

Your point?
67

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 09:40:13
#77 MacGillicuddy,

Er, because, since the passing of the said Scotland Act, the political landscape has changed and we now also have a big building (without a muckle clock tower) at the foot of the Canongate?
68

John S,

11/09/2008 09:42:45
Will the Calman Commission also consult the Welsh and the Northern Irish or is the commission being selective as it was with no mention of independence ?
69

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

11/09/2008 09:44:34
Double standards by the cybernats here - the First Minister feels it is necessary to speak to the rest of the UK regards an independence settlement then why not Calman regards a devolution settlement?
70

Nevsky,

Moscow 11/09/2008 09:45:28
91#

Truely is a troll. Just spouts the same nonsense to wind people up, pay no attention.
71

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 09:45:56
#80 Auld Twa

Agree with it or not, love it or hate it, the present constitutional settlement is a devolved one. The governance of Scotland is carried out by two governing bodies, one of which also happens to be the only parliament the English have ( a particular state of affairs which is entirely a matter for them, I hope you would agree). Therefore, logically, when tinkering with one, with the aim of improving the governance of Scotland, my affect the other in any way, that surely becomes a matter of interest for the English. No?
72

morris,

edinburgh 11/09/2008 09:46:23
73

Even if you accept devolution as a solution to anything (which I personally do not),then clearly what powers are devolved from Westminster to Holyrood are a matter of interest to the elected representatives of Scotland at Westminster and Holyrood and the Scottish electorate ONLY.Those already devolved are no longer the concern of Westminster or they were never devolved in the first place.

If England suddenly wants a parliament (or anything for that matter)then the answer is give her one.
It has nothing to do with us.
It has no bearing upon what arrangements exist for Scotland.
They certainly would NOT ask Scotland on how English devolution affects her!
Does Northern Ireland consult English public opinion ?



Calman has discredited himself and shown himself to be yet another Westminster muppet.
THERE IS ONLY ONE ANSWER HERE AND WE ALL KNOW WHAT IT IS.

GET SCOTLAND OUT.

The message needs to go from Glenrothes to LONDON .

You have two choices: Govern us well or not at all.
You have already failed the first one!

What powers are to be devolved are those neccessary to satisfy the aspirations of the people of Scotland, who have the right to say how they are governed, and the exclusion of independence shows clearly to anybody who can see, what this is really about.
The people of Scotland are to be denied the right to choose (except we will not accept this),whilst we must be careful not to upset our neighbour whose views will be taken on board.AYE THAT WILL BE RICHT!
As for a second chamber which can oversee the legitmate parliament that is tantamount to taking devolution away again!
YOu can do what you want but only if Mr Bean agrees!


There will be no second chamber of any description until such time as the people ask for one.We already have one level of government too many and we are about to fix that according to opinion polls.

ITS NOT TIME ITS OVERDUE!
73

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 09:49:40
#83 MacGillicuddy

Your question to Lachie Todd is totally at odds with your usual position that we are not allowed, as a subject people, to make such decisions due to the 'oppression' of the English.
74

Nevsky,

Moscow 11/09/2008 09:49:54
#94

I don't think nipping over the border for one meeting and then 'maybe' another further south is seeking any kind of opinion really.

Town hall in Cumbria is going to be representative of the English people, you think so?

75

Nevsky,

Moscow 11/09/2008 09:53:04
Will Calman put the recommendations from the town hall in Cumbria into the final report...this could affect the remit of the Scottish Government.

Could the future powers in Scotland be limited due to WRI in Cumbria's thoughts...what an epic commission this is..lol.
76

donald anderson it's me,

weegieland 11/09/2008 09:53:05
Where el can the McCalmans go to sing to an Engliush tune.

They are terrified of even discussing Independence in Scotland in case their lickspittle roles are rumbled.
77

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 09:59:29
#97 Nevsky

Entirely agree with you. The whole exercise is a waste of time, I'm merely looking at the matter rationally as opposed to the howling of the Cybernats. There's only one REAL question to be asked, in the Union or not.
78

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 11/09/2008 10:02:41
#95

Give me a break we are not denied the right to choose at all, we have had umpteen elections in the last 100 years. We have not had tanks in George Square or Princess Street, no secret police dragging people out of their bed and taking them away. It is easy for us, vote for it and we get it. Does the fact we have not, perhaps suggest something. I have the utmost respect for countries who have freed themselves from the yoke of oppresion but we are not in that position. You rant because people have discussions, some people live in countries where they are shot for wanting Independence. Stop moaning and tell Salmond to introduce his bill, it is time to at least amke a decision! the only ones delaying it are the SNP.
79

Calum10,

11/09/2008 10:10:21
Quote, "SIR Kenneth Calman will take his devolution commission to England to find out whether there would be a backlash south of the Border against more powers for the Scottish Parliament, it emerged yesterday."

Absolutely hilarious. Does no one on the Commission realise how badly this will play in Scotland. What sheer incompetence. I suggest that all the Calman Commision need do is read the London newsapers to discover how the English feel about the Scots. There the racist talk of "drunken, sweaty Jocks living off the English" is widely touted by commentators in the Sun, Times, Daily Mail, Daily Mirror, Guardian, Independent and the Daily Telegraph (I'm sure that irony is not lost on one of the members of this commission, Murdoch MacLennan the chief Executive of the Telegraph Media Group)

I suggest that once the Calman Commission cross the border into England they remain there because they will have ridicule heaped on them if they cross back over.
80

morris,

edinburgh 11/09/2008 10:12:02
100

Whilst I agree that the question of independence must be asked (and the answer given is not binding for ever of course,but clearly a re run would only serve any useful purpose where there was reason to believe a different result was possible).
This is what we did with devolution,so arguing against this is pretty futile now,and would only serve to increase the independence vote anyway, as it would rightly be interprteted as yet another attempt to thwart the legitiamte aspirations of the people.
I accept the UK if thats our decision currently, and expect the same courtesy in return.

What matters is what the people want,not what the politicians say we want.

However ,if we answer NO to independence,then clearly we must know what it is we are automatically answering YES to!

Devolution MkII is being dangled around and nobody knows what it contains and more importantly excludes.

When I buy a car I want to know what is under the bonnet.IF its an IOU note ,or "smile you are on candid camera" ,forget it!

81

William_Oxford,

Oxford 11/09/2008 10:20:20

The anti-English bias on this (and other Scottish blogs) beggars believe.

Sir Alistair Calman says that he is going to consult the English about the effects of more devolved power, and the usual utterly shameful torrent of abuse comes pouring out. And once again, somehow, the English (every single one of us) is to blame.

(Ironically, the same abusers were complaining yesterday when a London-based think tank proposed more tax raising powers for Scotland. We really cannot win!) How shameful and pathetic!

I truly pity Scotland and the Scots, where so many of you are riddled by prejudice, bigotry and hatred to your very core. (There really is no point in denying it: this and other blogs are a testament.)

What ever the outcome of your independence referendum, I don't envy you the bitterness and resentment the outcome will ensue.
82

MoClana,

11/09/2008 10:20:54
Amazing is it not - a whole piece on the Unionist Commision and how it will effect the English...and not one counter argument in the story!

There is simply no room for criticism of this shambolic and unaccountable attempt to undermine the democratic process in Scotland is there.

The national conversation on the other hand has been heavily critcised, accused of being 'grilled' and being 'scrutinised'.

What an utter farce this commision is and this paper allows itself to be used as toilet paper......oops that might offend, Kenneth, you better ask the English if we can wipe our back sides while youre there, cheers

Soar Alba

83

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 10:23:42
#101 All Politicians

How right you are. How some of the ravers on here can claim that we, as Scots, are in ANY way oppressed by anyone, is insulting to so many other peoples in the world, such as the Tibetans or the Zimbabweans, who truly fear the knock on the door. You're right, all it takes is one vote. To be fair to Alex Salmond, I've never heard him say anything that hints he agrees with the nauseating and totally unjustifiable Anglophobia that infects a few other supporters of his party. It's them I so enjoying winding up; I have no issue whatsoever with the basic premise of the SNP.
84

Ken S.,

Reading 11/09/2008 10:25:49
No reason why we shouldn't have an input on the subject. The Union is like a marriage. If one partner wants a further separation or a full divorce, then it is a matter that involves the other partner. Despite all the histrionics in the papers from the likes of Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells, I suspect that most of us down here would prefer to stay married and would be sad to see you depart. If you prefer divorce, then so be it; let's proceed to amicable dissolution.

Our attitude is more one of exasperation at further separation, short of divorce, in a manner which denies England an equivalent constitutional status. UK politicians seem to feel that any price is worth paying to preserve the Union. My view is that a Union that can only be bought rather than freely proffered is not worth having. Neither is such a concept very complimentary by inferring that Scotland can be bought off. Thus I'm at ease with the views of those who want full independence (aside from the numpties who seem to feel that the ample modern rationale for this is somehow enhanced by dragging up and sometimes novelly embellishing old history) and those who want to stay in Union (aside from those numpties who think it reasonable to have cake and eat it by ever increasing assymetric devolution).

Therefore, in principle it is perfectly reasonable for the Calman Commission to take soundings from south of the border. It's the practicality I wonder about. If it means consulting with pressure groups, official bodies & suchlike, then those eminences could simply utilise those rail, road and air connections, which I gather now extend even as far north as Edinburgh. If it means consulting with yer average member of the public, then how an earth could the Commission hope to gather together a representative sample? The audience would be comprised of self-selecting loudmouths such as us on these boards. Also, a gathering in, say, Newcastle would not be much use to a Devonian or a member of the intellige
85

Jacqueline Hyde ,

On the shelf 11/09/2008 10:28:55
Surely English residents should be asked if they would prefer to have their own parliament devolved from the UK Parliament?

Then they would see what it is like to have one's taxes being squandered on the ridiculous cost of maintaining a Westminster assembly that has only occasional relevance.
86

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 11/09/2008 10:29:06
For many years we've heard talk of Scotland as a 'stateless nation' but it sees to me that post-devolution this is no longer the case. Scotland is involved in a process of accruing to itself further control of the state. It could be argued that Scotland, then, is moving towards increased statehood and the question is how far we want to go.

I would hope that Calman will result in full fiscal autonomy for the Scottish Parliament. It should also, I think, take seriously the notion of the 10% oil fund. However, as with the Constitutional Convention, Calman will probably not be the last word on constitutional issues in Scotland. It may be that Calman fails to satisfy the increasing desire in Scotland to gain greater cotnrol over the machinery of state and to allow Scots to take responsibility for this and see their own decision-making institutions deliver the kind of policies that Scottish voters want.

We also should bare in mind that English voters will have their own views on Scotland's constitutional development, especially with regards to their own position within the Union. If there is a 'stateless nation' in Britain it is probably that bit of England that feels increasingly estranged from London government. What unionists in Scotland want and what unionists in England want may prove to be very different. In Scotland, if we are to uphold the Union, we will need to be alert to the fact that (as a minority within Britain) it may be Scottish voters whose aspirations are compromised.
87

John S,

11/09/2008 10:32:00
From the Calman Commission website.
During its work, the Commission will be visiting towns all over Scotland to talk to Scots about their hopes and concerns for their country’s future.
There will be an event taking place in a town near you between September 2008 and March 2009. Come along and take part in the debate on Scotland’s future.
"Members are keen to go out and meet the people of Scotland and ask them how the Scottish Parliament could better serve them.

I don't see any mention of any meetings to be held in England, Northen Ireland or Wales maybe this was just an oversight ?

Venues and Dates
Glasgow-10 September 2008
Dumfries-25 September 2008
Berwick upon Tweed-03 October 2008

They do have until March 2009 to visit towns all over Scotland to talk to the Scottish people.
88

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 10:32:39
#104 Morris

Yes. The Calman talking-shop was a knee jerk reaction by the Unionist parties and a failure to exploit the position of advantage they were in at the time. Instead of attempting to tinker with the current situation, they should ALL have called Eck's bluff and demanded a 2 question referendum. Eck knows what the answer would have been. He must have been laughing his whatsit off when the Unionist parties came up with the idea of Calman.
89

Farky,

eDINBURGH 11/09/2008 10:33:39
Do the Catalonians ask other neighbouring regions of Spain what they think of extra powers for Catalonia? I think not! This is quite extraordinary in my view. Calman needs to ask the Scottish people - and no one else!
90

morris,

edinburgh 11/09/2008 10:35:32
101

Firstly.
We require an unambiguous question and answer before we can be recognised by the international community.
This is usually a referendum asking a specific question, but clearly a landslide under FPTP,which would also be a majority, would make any referendum pointless and academic only.

Westminster could hold a referendum just like WENDY wanted to. She has not done so.
SHE DARE NOT DO SO!She knows the result is borderline at least.

The SNP by contrast have a manifesto commitment to holding a referendum in 2010.
Its is stretching credibility a bit far to suggest that we are holding back,when Westminster has refused to hold one at all!
We are timing the referendum certainly,but we are committed to honouring our date of 2010.
However we are as you say capable of voting through the ballot box at anytime.(Glasgow East said something but we could argue what it was exactly)
Just for the record Scotlands MPS tried to leave Westminster in 1711 (after only 4 years) but the vote was taken by the entire house and defeated)and there have been numerous attempts since then, all of which failed, apart form the recent years of course and the Scotland Act.
Liberal MP Cunningham Graham spent his entire parliamentary life trying to break away from the Westminster parliament, and eventually gave up on the Liberals, and formed the SCOTTISH LABOUR PARTY with his colleague Keir Hardie but it failed, and he then formed another party of Home Rule which eventually became the SNP (where Keir Hardie became president of the ILP which existed in and around Bradford area mostly).
Scotland is not denied the ballot box I agree,but please do not suggest that we were fairly treated at Westminster.These men knew differently!
91

MoClana,

11/09/2008 10:36:52
#111 Ken ' No reason why we shouldn't have an input on the subject. The Union is like a marriage. If one partner wants a further separation or a full divorce, then it is a matter that involves the other partner'

And if England says No?......do we just shut up and pretend it never happened ?

How many marriages do you know which are together simply because one of the partners said no to splititng???
92

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 10:40:40
#119 MoClana

But it's nice if a divorced couple can at least be on speaking terms when they part. What's wrong with at least being courteous and asking?
93

Joanna,

Cambs, England 11/09/2008 10:40:44
113 Jacqueline Hyde

We see our taxes squandered on a daily basis by this Government.

To set up another parliament in England would squander yet more money. We are governed too much as it is. We already have MEPs, MPs and local councils - we don't really need any more.

What most people in England do want tho' is for MPs with Scottish seats not to vote on English matters which are already devolved in Scotland. They cannot affect their own constituents but they can affect us and sway the vote. This will not change under Labour.

To their credit SNP MPs abstain from these votes.
94

European Scot,

11/09/2008 10:43:41
101 All Politicians ....

" It is easy for us, vote for it and we get it. Does the fact we have not, perhaps suggest something. I have the utmost respect for countries who have freed themselves from the yoke of 'oppresion' but we are not in that position. "

No controlled one sided press, no State Television pumping out propaganda, no State secrecy keeping vital information from the people, which would have had a very real effect on the vote at the time. No just a nice healthy open 'democratic' Unionist society.
Why would anyone even think about seeking Independence from that ? !

Salmond set out the time frame for a referendum bill, and he will keep to his word.
95

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 10:52:33
#122 European Scot

Yet again, this insulting habit you Nats have of implying that anyone who believes in the Union must be either, at worst, some sort of 'Quisling', or , at best and as you seem to be perpetrating here, in some way easily prey to the propaganda of the English. Worse still, this implication that some people only stay in the Union because of a belief, based on a deliberately false premise supplied us by the English, that we are somehow unable to exist without English handouts. In other words, you think that any of your countrymen are happy to exist as parasites.
96

John S,

11/09/2008 10:54:43
#101: Give me a break, remember in the 1979 devolution referendum where Scots voted 51.6% for a parliament Labour manipulated Democracy so that instead 62.7% of those who voted would have to vote yes.
Aye that was democracy Westminster style even Margaret Thatcher wanted to prevent the creation of a Scottish assembly by amending Labour legislation to allow the English to vote in the 1979 referendum on devolution.

97

morris,

edinburgh 11/09/2008 10:55:23

William_Oxford,
Oxford 11/09/2008 10:20:20

We have no ill feeling toward the English people. Half of the SNP memebers I know are married to/ with an English person (moi for a kick off) and my own MSP and MP elect are BOTH English born and I have nothing but the highest respect for both of them.
I feel slightly less enthused by someone living in Oxford telling me how to run my country though other than the vote afforded to us both via the ballot box.
Lets get this straight,

The United Kingdom is a multi national state comprising of four countries each of which is recognised as such.

I have no say in what happens on Oxford's local council . I do not live there.
You had no say on the Scotland Act.You don't live here!

You have no right to vote here so why should you have any more influence?
We are not denying you anything at all!
The sovereignty of Scotland was always invested in the people themselves,and that is historical fact.

They and they alone decide what happens in their own country.End of Debate.
Object if you want but we will decide who and what governs us!
You are entitled to an opinion ,and have expressed it. You have no vote here however.That is as it should be,but if you lived here/moved here that would change of course.

We wish you well.
98

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 11/09/2008 11:03:59
No controlled one sided press, no State Television pumping out propaganda, no State secrecy keeping vital information from the people, which would have had a very real effect on the vote at the time. No just a nice healthy open 'democratic' Unionist society.
Why would anyone even think about seeking Independence from that ? !
Ah the Nationalist arguement that anyone who disagrees with you is evil, state controlled or wrong. Maybe they just disagree with you and are not frightened to say it. There is nothing stopping the press or tv supporting your idea but they choose not to. freedom of speech.
99

hertscot,

11/09/2008 11:06:50
'We must ask English for their thoughts on Holyrood powers'

OK, I have a question.
How do you fell about f***ing off and letting us look after ourselves?
100

hertscot,

11/09/2008 11:07:14
....feel...
101

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 11:15:07
#128 hertscot

Er, all WE have to do is f**k off and 'look after ourselves' Apparently another Nat with an oppression complex.
102

Ken S.,

Reading 11/09/2008 11:17:46
#119 MoClana,
"And if England says No?......do we just shut up and pretend it never happened ?"

If you read on, I didn't imply that England's view would prevail. It should be taken into account, accepting that it could nevertheless result in divorce. "Consult" is by no means the same as "Seek permission".

In fact, while as a proud, overbearing Englishman I might be expected to concur with the theoretical fairness of #78's mooting of referenda in all four countries, I recognise that this could produce impossible conundrums. The question would have to be a straightforward "Do you wish to stay as part of the UK?"

What if England voted Yes and Scotland No? Only one of those nations views could be satisfied.

More interestingly, what if 99% of the Scottish electorate showed themselves to be true Brits and voted Yes (-yeah right!), whereas a similar overwhelming majority of the 1000 of the English electorate that bothered to vote said No?
No doubt someone would hold that the English vote would be invalid because insufficient people participated. Well, that doesn't inhibit political parties gaining power with low turnouts and the votes of a minority of the population!

Pragmatically, this has to be handled on a case by case basis. Anyway, there are no indications currently of a majority in Wales or Northern Ireland pressing for secession, whilst the newish organised "English Nationalist" movement is not seeking actual independence, just a revised constitutional arrangement within the Union/Federation.

So,for reasons of practically rather than principle, it is certainly up to Scotland alone to decide whether it wants Union or Independence and this really needs to be resolved in a clearcut either/or referendum in the not too distant future.
103

European Scot,

11/09/2008 11:17:57
124 Draco Was a Wimp

" Yet again, this insulting habit you Nats have of implying that anyone who believes in the Union must be either, at worst, some sort of 'Quisling', or , at best and as you seem to be perpetrating here, in some way easily prey to the propaganda of the English."

Firstly where was the term 'Quisling' used, or even suggested in my post ?
Who is stating this is the fault of the English ? I have no problems whatsoever with the English.
This is a British, or English Establishment problem, and the latter have probably done as much damage to the English as anyone else.
Where does this English handouts thing come from ?
I suggest you read the post again.
It's all about the levels of control that have been in place to maintain this Union, and the use of propaganda, be it the BBC, or Unionist newspapers such as this one.
It is also about the deliberate suppression of information at Cabinet level which would have changed the outcome of an Election in the seventies, where the SNP were already riding high. It would have brought Independence forward by 30 years.
My posts do not, nor ever will condemn the English, they are as much a 'victim' as Scotland.
As for parasites, the only time I have thought of that term was in connection with a certain bunch living at the end of the Mall.
What you have served up is a product of your own mind.
104

MoClana,

11/09/2008 11:18:08
#120 Draco - no one is suggesting we do not talk, in fact, i believe we will be stronger partners once independent.

However to firstly ignore the sizeable support for independence (which ever poll you take) , to ignore the huge support for a referendum and then tells us that we should be concerened with English views is ridiculous.

This could all be avoided and many millions saved of tax payers money, if the Unionists stopped their divisive stand against putting it to the people to decide.

This is enshrined in the rights of every European citizen, however the Unionists arrogance believe they can undermine a democratically elected goverment and those who voted for them, by taking the constitutional ball and running away with it.







105

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 11/09/2008 11:22:43
#133

there is not a majority in parliament in favour of a referendum, that is a fact and also democracy. Howver I beleive we will get one and all abide by the outcome again democracy. All that is happening now is that a body set up by the MAJORITY of the parliament are exploring options.
106

morris,

edinburgh 11/09/2008 11:24:06
121

Joanna THANK YOU DEAR LADY

Here speaks the voice of reason and I assure you we bear England no grudge or ill feeling.Our argument is with our fellow Scots and that is as it should be.We have no objection to England doing anything.I agree of course we should NOT be voting on matters which are devolved to Holyrood.WE HAVE NO RIGHT to vote and you are absolutely correct.If its devolved the right of Scottish Labour to vote on purely English matters should not require to be removed since it cannot exist to begin with! The people they represent have these matters dealt with at Holyrood by a different MSP, and they therefore exceed their (non existent) authority !

The Conservative Party should promise this as an election manifesto committment if they have not already done so.
ENGLAND should already have devolution in effect since removal of Welsh/ Scottish input automatically should mean that whats left is Englands affair and Englands people and representatives affair.
(I left Northern Ireland out for obvious reasons not least of which is simplicity)
OF COURSE WHAT YOU SAY IS PERFECTLY FAIR.

Home Rule for England!
I salute you madam .
107

European Scot,

11/09/2008 11:26:30
127 All Politicians .....

"There is nothing stopping the press or tv supporting your idea but they choose not to. freedom of speech."

Just one little word that you left out, it belongs in front of press, tv, and incidentally in front of 'Calman Commission' ........ Unionist.

Such is ' freedom ' in your World.
108

morris,

edinburgh 11/09/2008 11:31:49
134

Whether we have a referendum or not is a matter for the people to decide,not the politicians to dictate, and whether a majority of the people support a referendum is surely what counts.

That parliament was elected on a given day.The level of support today or tomorrow etc, cannot be assumed to be the same as the result of an election held years ago! It changes daily probably!
Just look at Glasgow East!
If you want to discuss what level of support exists in absolute certainty we first have to measure it!
WE HAVE NOT DONE SO as far as I can see,and no amount of pretence will change that.

All politicians are the same? No wonder when we are willing to let them away with that nonsense!
109

William_Oxford,

Oxford 11/09/2008 11:41:59
126 morris, edinburgh 11/09/2008 10:55:23

Mr Morris,

Once again, you Nats can't resist throwing insults. Where in my post did I say that I wanted a vote on Scottish matters? No where!

Ironicaly, of course, you Scots *do* have a say in the running of English affairs, but you don't need to point out to me that this inquity will cease once you choose your path of destiny.
110

MoClana,

11/09/2008 11:43:24
#134 - All that is happening now is that a body set up by the MAJORITY of the parliament are exploring options'

There maybe a majority on the Unionist benches, but that does not reflect public opinion , as the constitutional views can be complex, for example, There are Labour voters who would support Independence, like wise Tory and Libdem.

The only way this can be democratically reflected is if these views are put to the people and not hijacked by the opposition in a blatant attempt to undermine and frustrate the Scottish Goverment, and to suit its own political agenda.

The Unionists will suggest their is no desire for a referendum, even the polls show this to be false - as much as 75%. However the Calman Commision uses the same polls to exclude independence as an option for its remit??

It can not face both ways at once and sooner or later will have to address the growing support for self determination.


111

ThomasP,

11/09/2008 11:45:53
#130

It's actually the British Parliament which handles English Affairs. You can not blame Scots for voting on matters that are held at the British Parliament, can you?

Plus, English matters could result in more or less money being spent in Scotland through the BF.

I do think its unfair that the English should be allowed their voice on our business though. They don't vote in Holyrood, they don't live in Scotland. The onyl good thing I see from it is that the English will stand up and tell the Unionists Scotland needs to control her taxes etc etc
112

guenevere,

11/09/2008 11:53:57
OK,LETS PUT IT THIS WAY. As most of your money comes from English taxpayers,it is only curtious to inform us if any changes are to be made; But i can assure you the people of England will be only to happy to get rid of this burden.
113

William_Oxford,

Oxford 11/09/2008 11:59:18
#132 ThomasP, 11/09/2008 11:45:53

I suggest you read "1984" for a definition of "double-speak".

Your say, "It's actually the British Parliament which handles English Affairs. You can not blame Scots for voting on matters that are held at the British Parliament, can you?"

Yes, I can complain, because it isn't reciprocal, as the so-called "West Lothian Question" eloquently puts it. (And please don't mention the poll tax and 300 years of English domination...)

So, I have a perfect right to question any further constitutional arrangement that further extends this democratic asymmetry (or should I say, deficit?).
114

guenevere,

11/09/2008 12:07:05
135.Today, the Taxpayers’ Alliance has issued their long-awaited report on the real cost to England of the Barnett Formula.

The conclusion of their findings are that English taxpayers are massively subsidising the people of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and their public services. England contributes over 85% of all the UK Government fiscal pot - and yet get least back in regards to spending per head. Figures released by the Taxpayers Alliance report reveal that spending per head in Scotland is between 22% and 25% higher than that in England, in Wales it is 14% higher and in Northern Ireland it is a incredible 30% higher.
115

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 12:07:07
#122 European Scot.

No controlled one sided press, no State Television pumping out propaganda, no State secrecy keeping vital information from the people, which would have had a very real effect on the vote at the time. No just a nice healthy open 'democratic' Unionist society.

Your tone suggests to me that you believe we suffer from all these things. Who else do you suggest would seek to 'impose' them on us other than the English or some sort of Unionist Scots stooge seeking to pull the wool over the eyes of their fellow citizens?

#133 MacGillicuddy

Likewise, if I have taken inferenece where none was offered, I apologise. From the tone of your previous posts, I doubt it.



116

European Scot,

11/09/2008 12:08:13
134 MacGillicuddy

" I see you are having trouble also with the wimp actually understanding the English language"

It looks that way.
What is it with some Unionists, they make comments which are supposedly a reaction to a post, but their own criticisms have no bearing on the post itself.
It's just used as an excuse to launch into their own pet hates and prejudices.
117

guenevere,

11/09/2008 12:12:29
135. Nutjob! yeah we must be,for putting up with this sh@@e,but the people of England have had enough,and things are about to change,and Scotland will be the worse for it.
118

ThomasP,

11/09/2008 12:16:31
#136

What you should be asking for is your own Parliament. You can't stop Scots voting on matters that are held at the British Parliament. It also reflects how much cash can get to Scotland to.

But you should not be able to stick your nose in at Holyrood when you can't even vote there etc etc
119

tartan army 2222,

11/09/2008 12:19:20
In response to the title - why?

Why has this got anything at all to do with England? But hey, if you think it's helpful Kenneth go for it, because it's just another example that outwith the SNP all politicians and lackeys in Scotland bow down to Westminster at every turn. The Scottish Government (or for the unionists - Executive) is still seen as little more than a parish council by many of them.

Independence - getting closer each day. Nearly there.
120

European Scot,

11/09/2008 12:26:08
140 Draco Was a Wimp

" Who else do you suggest would seek to 'impose' them on us ............ some sort of Unionist Scots stooge seeking to pull the wool over the eyes of their fellow citizens?"

Draco, that is probably one of the best descriptions of Gordon Brown that I have read in quite a while.
121

William_Oxford,

Oxford 11/09/2008 12:27:24
#138 Hawkeye the Noo, 11/09/2008 12:06:46

Thank you, you really have made my point (see #96). But then you don't care do you? So long as you can wrap yourself up in your own nationalist propaganda, you don't care about anything else (especially facts).

And this is the reason why I do worry about the independence referendum, because I suspect that the majority of Scots don't share your views and you won't get the outcome you want.

And then the bitterness and the rancour really will exponentiate...

But that's enough from me, I really can't abide the ill-feeling and bad grace that these blogs generate.
122

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 12:32:52
#151 European Scot

Hopefully I'm missing your sense of irony. As much as I dislike Broon, on many levels, I'd hate to think he acts to the deliberate detriment of his country and his fellow Scots. That's what I mean, some Nats on here believe that to believe in the Union is to be in some way a traitor to Scotland.
123

guenevere,

11/09/2008 12:33:22
146.# North Sea Oil has not funded the Scottish spending gap, despite Scottish Nationalist claims to the contrary. In only five of the last 23 years have North Sea Oil receipts exceeded the cost of higher funding paid to Scotland. Even with current high oil prices, the income from the Scottish share of North Sea Oil only just covers the spending gap, and North Sea Oil output is projected to fall by 50 per cent by 2020.
124

tartan army 2222,

11/09/2008 12:33:54
Calman says we must see if there will be a backlash south of the border.

Why waste the money on the trip Kenny boy. I can tell you right now. The vast, vast majority of English people don't care (and rightly so). They have much more important things to worry about - like getting rid of this bunch of inept, sleazy freeloaders from Westminster.
125

Truely English,

11/09/2008 12:34:13
81
There is little or no difference between the English culture in England and the English culture in Scotland.
We all share the same social, educational and artistic culture through English whether one is in Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Glasgow, Liverpool, Newcastle or Cardiff. That is what is so good about being English and British or Scottish and British at the same time.
126

Saoghal Beag,

11/09/2008 12:36:07
136 william oxford, what the west lothian question highlights is that england has no parliment and yet continues to consider westminster to be jsut that. england has the answer to the west lothian question not scotland.
127

,

11/09/2008 12:36:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
128

Kimg Arthur,

11/09/2008 12:40:38
#157 - actually, we have very different educational cultures between England and Scotland. Us here in England have had to put up with grade deflation in our exams to the point where we have people who get enough grades to become, say, a teaching assistant, who 20 years ago would not have been allowed to cross the road themselves.

Meanwhile, you Scots still have an education system of substance - right from primary through to your Universities. Hats off to you.
129

ThomasP,

11/09/2008 12:41:54
#157

You really are an annoying troll.
130

ThomasP,

11/09/2008 12:46:38
#162

It will turn out well. Th eEnglish will allow us to get all our tax raising powers at least.

:)
131

guenevere,

11/09/2008 12:48:55
159. You really must learn to spell. There once was a dumb tessider IT'S TEESSIDE, TROLL!
132

Ananurhing,

11/09/2008 12:53:54
#155

In coming to your conclusions, what percentage of oil revenues did you attribute to "Scotland's share"?
And where did you lift this information from?
133

,

11/09/2008 12:54:03
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Reason:
134

guenevere,

11/09/2008 12:54:39
So hear we have a scot who likes pretending to be English,but he can't even spell Teesside! this is how he spells it "tessider"
135

European Scot,

11/09/2008 13:01:18
154 Draco Was a Wimp

As long as the Union exists in the World, Scotland doesn't. It remains a 'region'.
If you support the 'UK', like Brown, then you obviously do not support an Independent Scotland.
I happen to believe that Scotland should be sitting at the UN, and in the European Parliament, representing itself just as any other country in those organisations.
I do not use terms like 'traitor', or 'quisling' for people who stand against the principle of Scotland having its Independence, 'misguided' would probably cover it.
I've written this before so I apologise for repeating it. The vast majority of people in the Free World support the Independence of their country, and we have seen many of them for ourselves on television, out in the streets celebrating that fact.
People who stand against Independence are in World terms, a very small minority.
I'd be one of those out in the street celebrating, where would you be ?
136

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 13:15:22
#171 European Scot

There you go again. 'Misguided' It's total arrogance to think that your opinion is the correct one, that the MAJORITY somehow doesn't have the ability to come to a reasoned decision as to what's best for their country. Personally, I like the best of both worlds. I like being a Scot, I like being British. I don't believe that being part of the UK has been bad for Scotland, in fact the opposite. I don't even believe that we aren't 'independent' We're an individual and sovereign people which has chosen to pool that sovereignty (just like the EU, which you know doubt support)with 3 other countries. And to answer your question, if the day of secession comes, I'll be on the streets celebrating being Scottish as much as you. I'll be a wee bit sad and nostalgic but I'll have no doubt whatsoever that we're anything other than capable of going it alone.
137

Gilsland Reiver,

English Western Marches 11/09/2008 13:32:18
171 et al

I have no problem with "Full and Absolute" independance for Scotland as long as it is full & absolute and not the devolved joke it is now. Then my taxes won't continue to subsidise its' falsly perceived freedoms.
I am fed up to the back teeth that we English continue to pay for 3 pseudo self governing farces within the boundaries of this so called United (joke) Kingdom.
Have all the independance you want.....Just Go And Good Riddance !! I'll be first in line (at the south side)to help you rebuild the wall.

However, you all need to make sure any referendum is given to us English to vote on. Then you'll all be assured of a positive result. We all want rid.
138

European Scot,

11/09/2008 13:35:12
176 Draco Was a Wimp

"There you go again. 'Misguided' It's total arrogance to think that your opinion is the correct one, that the MAJORITY somehow doesn't have the ability to come to a reasoned decision as to what's best for their country"

'Misguided' is an opinion, but it isn't exactly, in word terms, dynamite !
Your term 'total arrogance' on the other is rather more aggressive, and a tad more personal.
As for the majority, it is their decision that I believe in, as a supporter of democracy.
It will be the majority in Scotland, that makes the difference to Scotland.
Anyway it's good to see you'd be in there celebrating as well.

It's time for lunch, hopefully no 'misguided' decisions on the menu del dia !
139

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 11/09/2008 13:36:38
#167

We talk the same language about the same things, we eat the same food, we watch the same movies and read the same books. We go on holiday to the same places and have the same views on world events, we have 300 years of shred historical experiences.
140

guenevere,

11/09/2008 13:39:41
178. Well said, you speak for the vast majority of English people.
141

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 13:45:18
#184 Dave

No-one, other than the most stupid or who has been forced by the direst of circumstances on the edge of civilisation, eats guga.
142

brownlie,

11/09/2008 13:49:25
Scrolling through the comments it occurs to me that there is a unionist agenda which constantly accuses the SNP and its' supporters of being anti-English without any evidence to back this recurring theme apart from infrequent isolated comments.

It appears that the Truly English commentator who cannot spell his own moniker comes onto this thread inviting anti-English comments.

The article makes no mention of what the Calman Commission's reaction will be in the unlikely event of there being a "backlash" from the, probably invited, English audience.

184 Dave from Barra

What about "sgadan sailt"?
143

guenevere,

11/09/2008 13:51:12
Dave from Barra should be renamed dave from bilesville,he spouts enough of it!
144

guenevere,

11/09/2008 13:55:45
188.The article makes no mention of what the Calman Commission's reaction will be in the unlikely event of there being a "backlash" from the, probably invited, English audience. You'd better pray to your god that we don't come to that,even the mighty Salmond would be flattened,and Scotland would be back to square one!
145

brownlie,

11/09/2008 13:58:47
190 guenevere

Your comment would probably make a lot of sense if anyone could understand it!
146

guenevere,

11/09/2008 14:05:11
“The Barnett Formula has a troubled history and has failed to address the extremely unfair situation of English taxpayers heavily subsiding Scotland. Everyone is struggling to make ends meet, and it is long overdue for the Government to lift this burden from taxpayers’ shoulders. English taxpayers want an end to subsidising Scotland,and the Scottish wants financial control devolved to Holyrood, so now is the ideal time to consign the Barnett Formula to history.”

147

guenevere,

11/09/2008 14:08:08
193. Im simple terms it means, do not disregard the English,you do so at your peril.
148

Brian Hill,

11/09/2008 14:09:18
This could be a clever move by Calman. One fairly neutral, innocuous meeting in the North of England then a few down in the Home Counties:

The question tonight ladies and gentlemen is should we stop sending money to Scotland and instead let them live off their own taxes?

We would hear the answer up here. The poor Tommys are all convinced THEY are subsidising US.

Give them Independence and let them eat cake, the audience cried with one voice.


Sounds good to me.....
149

Venerable Bede,

England 11/09/2008 14:10:26
As a very proud Englishman, all I can say is that I hope Scotland stays part of the Union - I enjoy collecting my benefits too much...but then, I am more aware of it than most English as I live just over the border from what is turning into a Utopia.

I admit it, I am jealous and would like your superior health system, education and government...as all proud Englishmen in my neck of the woods will admit (after a couple of pints) they really wish they were in Scotland.
150

Venerable Bede,

11/09/2008 14:17:46
Thank you Dave, but my meagre benefits allowance doesn't allow me enough to move - sadly most of my kinfolk are in the same position...I admit, most of us scrounge off the state and are just pleased to have your oil revenue put to good use.

We were supposed to have been well taught at school, but sadly our teachers let us down & the teaching assistant was too busy being a racist tw-t to the Scots kids in our class to impart us with her amazing wisdom.
151

Venerable Bede,

11/09/2008 14:26:03
#193 - Please disregard or regard us English as you wish - and don't listen to that bitter "guenevere" person. You Scots really shouldn't need permission from us English to spend your own money - that is daft.

I think that Guenevere must be German, because she really doesn't like Scotland and she seems happy to give us English a bad name. The vast majority of us know that Scotland more than pulls her weight and we are happy to see you "go for independence" should youso wish. Its a democracy, after all. What are people like guenevere afraid of, eh?
152

guenevere,

11/09/2008 14:26:17
204. aka king arthur! you can spout your bile all day long, but you are nothing more than a ignorant,obnoxious,idiot.
153

Venerable Bede,

11/09/2008 14:31:31
#207 is a German who hates the English and is trying to give us a bad name - please ignore her.

And who is this "King Arthur" of whom you speak? Different era from me, poppet.
154

guenevere,

11/09/2008 14:35:21
208. yeah right, you scum bag.
155

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 11/09/2008 14:36:44
#182

Ok then can you tell me what makes you different from A Scouser or a Cockney or a Cornishman or a welshman. Is it a greater difference and why than someone from edinburgh and glasgow or New York and LA?
156

écossais at heart,

france 11/09/2008 14:37:24
#204
Thank you guenevere for your well thought out and clearly expressed opinion on the subject......please go back to bed and have a rest.
157

Embra Don,

11/09/2008 14:38:35
Does anyone know if Calman's consultation in England be by invitation only as it is in Scotland? If ordinary English people are excluded as we are - it will be interesting to see if anyone turns up.
158

Venerable Bede,

11/09/2008 14:42:48
Everyone - please just ignore guenevere - she isn't actually English - us proud English do not think like her at all. She is clearly German, pretending to be English to drive a wedge between us. Hence, she doesn't have ANY understand of Scottish politics...and hence her spelling is laughably bad! LOL! It ALL makes sense now!

Guenevere ist nicht so gutt.
159

,

11/09/2008 14:45:18
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160

Embra Don,

11/09/2008 14:48:19
Is anyone surprised that the Hootsmon does not appear to have picked up on Newsnicht's piece on Labour v the Treasury over attendance allowance? I would have thought a headline of "Labour embarrassed by FoI revelations" would have been appropriate. It is amazing how reasonable and statesmanlike Henry McLeish now appears compared to the current contenders for his old job leading Labour in Holyrood.
161

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 11/09/2008 14:53:27
#213

By your reckoning someone from Edinburgh has more in common with a Geordie than you, they both live in cities, very few speak Gaelic hardly any like Highland dancing and very few geordies like morris dancing. Both more likely to be found in a nightclub. The welsh do indeed speak welsh and a far higher percentage than our Gaelic speakers. By your reckoning it is Geographical culture rather than Historical.
162

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 11/09/2008 14:56:23
#215

Exactly peoplef rom thecentral belt have more in common with fellow city dwellers in England than they do with people from Barra, culture is now driven by demographics and teh environment in which you live.
163

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 11/09/2008 14:58:55
#219

I find it interesting that I am being lectured on differences by someone from a small i sland of the coast when I have over the last ten years split my time between Devon, Hampshire Edinburgh and Glasgow. Differences between people from Edinburgh/Plymouth/Portsmouth and Glasgow? The accent and football team they support. Music pretty much the same, food the same, books the same. Now maybe teh western isles has its own tastes but hey someone has to.
164

Venerable Bede,

11/09/2008 15:04:06
220 - All Politicians are the same....interesting. Have you tested this on the people of Denmark, Luxembourg, the Baltic States, the Balkans, Ireland, and so on? No? Oh well, it all sounds like total cobblers to me. You might think that having the BBC trying to homogenise us (never mind Californication) means we are all the same...well, we aren't. The skirl of the bagpipes leaves me flat cold. Not interested. But, the same noise (thats what it is to me) will make my equivalent, just 30 miles over the border, the hairs on the back of his head will stand up and he will feel a kinship. It is intangible and clearly well beyond your capabilities as a contributor to define.
165

JoeMiddleton,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 15:07:30
Scotland is a country, England is a country (actually two because Cornwall was absorbed) Wales is a country. As such all can decide on their own independence, but none can block the others.

In the past Britain managed to block Ireland's independence through military power but nowadays the British state will be expected to honour any such move.

It is entirely a matter for the people of Scotland to decide if they are independent. Powell was right. Power devolved is power ultimately retained.

Devolution will only be changed if it is felt that it will improve things for the larger party (or will placate the smaller party and put them off leaving).

Calman is quite right to consult in England (even if it removes any credibility he had) but he needs to go a lot further down to get to where the power is.

The Northern English are ignored probably even more than Scotland and their MP's have a history of trying to deny Scotland devolution as we found out in 1979.

Calman's Commission has already been neutered anyway since it has ruled out independence. What it wants to do is give out as little power as possible to Scots while watching England to see if they agree not. This action then is entirely consistent for this body.

If Calman refuses to consider independence he will never come up with a coherent argument against it or in favour of the union so independence supporters can safely snigger at this pointless body.

We are at the end game now. 2010 is coming fast.
166

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 11/09/2008 15:15:13
So far I ahve the differences down as someone from the western isles who likes country dancing and someone else who says its because Scots love bagpipe music, I do but my brother hates them.
167

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 11/09/2008 15:20:28
#222

As of the 2001 cencus only 58,000 people in the whole country speak Gaelic and nobody speaks Gaelic alone. even in 1755 lesss tahn 20% of the country spoke gaelic so its not really a massive cultural influence.
168

ThomasP,

11/09/2008 15:21:33
#226

If you are attempting to encourage the Union to continue on the basis of, "The English and Scots are not so different" then by using your same logic we should become another state of America.

America was founded by thousands from Western Europe, particulary Britain, especailly the Scots who had little opportunites.

Should we then become the next state in America?

Same culture right? Or not exactly the same but hey close enough right?
169

Venerable Bede,

11/09/2008 15:21:44
226 - All Politicians are the same - it is not for me to provide you with endless examples - it is for you to provide evidence to the contrary.

You have provided a hypothesis, now provide the evidence.

Incidently, if you really want to do some research on this topic, can I point you in the direction of the "geographical review", "annals of the assoc. of American Geographers", "antipode" and so on. Research, read, then come back with a well formed argument. At the moment you are peeing in the wind.


170

ThomasP,

11/09/2008 15:23:38
#227

I would not speak about the Gaelic language if I were you.

Lets go back in history, what happened to Scots who spoke Gaelic?

Did the English not beat the children, kill those strong enough to fight, rape our mothers and take what they thought was valuable?
171

,

11/09/2008 15:26:45
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172

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 11/09/2008 15:32:15
#229


You see I am merely telling you that the average man in the street is pretty much the same throughout the UK, whilst all I get in reply is some romantic historical tosh. It is 2008, live with it unfortunately the Sun has more influence over 90% of the populace who have never heard let alone read Sir Walter Scott. We all live in a society where the vast majority live for the here and now and prefer Parkhaed or Ibrox to the Opera or Art Gallery. It is undoubtedly true that Scotland has a different historical culture from England but these days joe punter isn't interested and the things they are interested in are the same throughout.
173

ThomasP,

11/09/2008 15:37:11
#233

You can not take out History, History is what defines exactly what a country is. It's something to be proud of your achievements over time and if you think Average Joe is not interested in their own history then you are sadly mistaken.

Speak to some Scots and ask them who they think is one of Scotlands greatest heros, who do you think they will say?
174

The Sprucer,

11/09/2008 15:41:12

The Calman Commission is a body designed to stall all the idiots in this country who think that pro-devolution might be a way forward. People in England are not gonna gives a monkey's f*** because they have had enough of Gordon Brown and will show so in two years time. The Conservatives, when in at the next election will show us all exactly what they think of the Calamitous Commission when they proceed with English Parliamentarians for English Laws. They are fed up and so are we. Devolution does not work because the minute one side asks for something more, the other side will do likewise. Are there people out there stupid enough to believe that the people of England will sit there and take this? Evidently there are.
175

Venerable Bede,

11/09/2008 15:41:12
233 - if what you are saying is that most humans are essentially the same, have broadly the same aspirations, etc., then, yes, well done, Hoggart.

In the face of your pig-headed refutation, its no wonder people chose obvious (romantic) examples to prove that what you have said is wrong. There were also more subtle arguments - Glasgow humour was one, off the top of my head.

I think you are very poorly informed if you think that the average punter isn't interested in their culture - simply look at the success of the reopening of the Kelvingrove as one huge example that people ARE more interested than ever in their culture.

Yes, people read the Sun, but I understand that the Sun is now the Scottish Sun, as they were losing readership hand-over-fist up in Scotland. Is there a "north of England" Sun? No.

You really need to go back to the drawing board with your argument, as you've been blown out of the water by so many people, without valid repost. And that's from an Englishman.
176

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 11/09/2008 15:43:53
#234

Opera and art galleries do exsist of course they do, they are however not as much of an influence on Joe public as they once were. History defines a nation? No your actions today define a nation, history is to be learnt from in order to shape todays actions but as for allowing it to define your nation, I am not sure. I have still not been provided with one modern relevant thing that makes somebody from Barra more like someone from Edinburgh than a Geordie. As for the scottish hero whats wrong with Wallace or Bruce. greek cities butchered each other for hundreds of years yet they get along now.
177

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 11/09/2008 15:51:24
#240

Different football culture? Different stripa and accents maybe.

Different Industries? The English do not make whisky but they do make Gin. Heavy industry limite in both countries. Financial services and service sector, the same.

The language everybody in Scotland speaks as we have no unilingual native speakers is a variation of English we have regional accents and words just like the Cornish and the scousers.

Different food, I am afraid that Curry is the most popular dish in both countries and they are both full of chip shops.

Music the Scottish top 40 is almost identical to the UK or English charts.
Bestseller lists are identical.

Politics, Scotland is further left than SE England but on par with the NE.

I await your etc etc etc.
178

Venerable Bede,

11/09/2008 15:52:35
#239 - someone from Barra is more like an Endinburgher than a Geordie because they have the same law, they've sat the same exams, they're now having the same health service, they are considerably more likely to have gone to University in Scotland, have celebrated a Burns night, have cheered on Scottish sportsmen, have laughed at "Glasgay humour" on BBC Scotland, have cousins who live in Edinburgh, go to work there, perhaps retire back to Barra, and so on.

There are vast numbers of less tangible things. Your assertion that history plays no part is nonsense. If I was Scottish and was sat with Dave from Barra in a pub, I'd perhapds chat to him about recent history (eg Scotland vs Iceland) and how good it was and how disappointing it was in the last qualification campaign. If i'm sat with Mr Geordie, he probably takes little notice of who Scotland played on Wednesday night, or who they had in their last qualification group. There are SO many examples, yet you keep going with your nonsense. I'm coming to the conclusion you are either on a wind-up, or are actually very stupid.
179

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 11/09/2008 15:52:39
#242
I am not the one trying to use mythical cultural differences as a reason behind seperating from the UK.
180

,

11/09/2008 15:55:45
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181

ThomasP,

11/09/2008 15:56:35
#245

If Scotland and England are so similar why were we not united many centuries ago?

Why did England have to bribe the Scottish Elite to unite the country?
182

English Bob,

England 11/09/2008 15:57:58
Well here's one Englishman's view.

Go for it Scotland. Go go go!
183

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 11/09/2008 15:59:54
#244

Funny because I was in a pub watching the game last night with people from all over the Uk and you know what the English were shouting on Scotland and could talk quite knowledgably about the last campaign as they are football fans. Differences in Scots and english laws don't really affect the average person. Burns night is a good example though, unfortunately most people use it as an excuse for a session. Glasgay humour? by which we are now on Rab C nesbit, its only an excuse etc is funny yet is it Scottish or Glaswegian, is Jethro cornish or English?
184

Venerable Bede,

11/09/2008 16:07:18
ok, ok, you are utterly naive. Utterly. Enough. Discussion with imbeciles of this magnitude is quite useless.

Seriously, go and read some articles in Antipode or, oh, what is the point. Your views are so entrenched I don't think anything will convince you.
185

Saruman,

11/09/2008 16:08:53
#240 Hawkeye: there is a different football culture between Scotland and England, but the Old Firm and there fans are more than anxious to join the premiership and benefit from a vast increase in resources and decent competition.

About says it all in micorcosm about the logic of a unified Britain, as far as I'm concerned. Am I right or am I right!
186

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 11/09/2008 16:09:24
#251

The overarching differences are huge, I agree and fundamentally different but to the man on the street the only time he would really notice is when he is buying a house.
187

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 11/09/2008 16:12:40
#252
"It aims to challenge dominant and orthodox views of the world through debate, scholarship and politically-committed research, creating new spaces and envisioning new futures"

This antipode? know wonder it appeals to the seperatists.
188

Alan B,

11/09/2008 16:16:03
Do not think there is any reason why Calman should not take as wide an opinion as possible and taking soundings from england seems sensible. But at the end of the day it is what the report says and whether it is implemented.

If it leads to fiscal autonomy which seems sensible both from an economic point of view and to prevent resentment on both sides of the border, then it will be worthwhile.

Scotland needs a much stronger parliament at the very least, indpendence would however be the best option. However would like to see fiscal autonomy delivered first.
189

Alan B,

11/09/2008 16:18:48
#All Politicians are the same

I lived in london for a while and they knew nothing and were not interested in the least in scottish football. The only players that registered were scottish playing in England.
190

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 11/09/2008 16:20:57
#258

Dave.

Trust me the old firm want to move and wheel clamping is leagal in Scotland on the public highway. please do your research.
191

Venerable Bede,

11/09/2008 16:24:57
255 - I am English and not a separatist. It is, however, a highly respected peer-reviewed Journal. I'm not telling you what you should and shouldn't think in reading it, i'm suggesting that you read some peer reviewed journals that deal with the subject and come back with a reasonable argument. Your argument is poor, one dimensional, and lacks any basis. You suggest that there are no differences between English and Scots - ok, I'm off to a wedding in Scotland this weekend. After dinner, people will get up and do Scottish country dancing - this happens very commonly at Scottish weddings, but not at English ones.

This is all so basic, but you have an interest, read some of this bunch of reprobates work:

http://www.geog.ox.ac.uk/research/transformations/people.html

Skippy's work (ie Gordon Clark) is quite relevant. You might want to read Erik Swyngedouw's work...ok, you probably don't want to, since he invents new words when it suits him. But still.
192

Saruman,

11/09/2008 16:35:23

#256 Dave: your link is from a number of years ago. If you knew anything about football, you'd know that Quinn was talking out of his a-se and that English clubs at the bottom of the premiership or the top of the championship have routinely knocked back the endless entreaties of Rangers and Celtic because they know that there'll be two less places for them in the lucrative top flight.
193

European Scot,

11/09/2008 16:57:52
204 Venerable Bede

Nice post, very humorous, and very generous, more typically English than some.
194

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 11/09/2008 16:59:35
#263

In answer to your main point I am not trying to form a Union, we laready have one, merely pointing out that romantci shortbread and whisky culture is so irrelevant that it is not going end it.
195

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 11/09/2008 17:04:46
#267

Try this link ref the old firm
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_20010805/ai_n13962284

Car clamping

www.theregister.co.uk/2007/05/25/car_clamping_asbo/comments/ - 41k -
196

European Scot,

11/09/2008 17:07:49
265 "Hoots" Fandango

" Not that much actually. Scotland produces 80% of all UK gin & vodka."

The bulk of English gin is bottled in Scotland, better bottling facilities there.
The Scots have never been short of bottle.
197

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 11/09/2008 17:15:46
#275

you ahve to read down to where it refers to Scottish clamping laws!

Like on this one?
www.epolitix.com/...///mpsite/lynne-jones/?no_cache=1

P.S who are you calling a venomous little Sh!t, typical nat when all else fails become abusive.
198

Venerable Bede,

11/09/2008 17:16:00
267 - fatuous argument. I don't think you'd find any scots that are inspired to freedom through a shortbread tin. Has anyone argued this point? No. You really are ineffably dumb.

Nationality has much to do with physical things, events, shared history, feelings, and, yes, intangibles like sentiment, but also hopes and desires. Many Scots want to regain their independence - a few English want them to as well, for all sort of reasons. The point is, its up to them what they do with those feelings. Should they want to move towards independence, whether it is based on sentimentality or well argued propositions by a political party, then that is their right.
199

,

11/09/2008 17:22:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
200

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 11/09/2008 17:23:15
#279

i do like Gordons but it is hard to beat Plymouth.
201

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 11/09/2008 17:25:24
#280

Typical of the nats that frequent these boards though just as many others think it is fine to insult people. You see I disagree with you and am stupid kust like the other 60% percent of the population that are happy being Scottish and British.
202

Ken S.,

Reading 11/09/2008 17:28:03
#251 Dave from Barra ©,
" Billy Conelly is regarded as funny no matter what city or country he is in. Can any Englishman claim that? "

In the interests of national honour & pride, I must intervene again! ---

Not stand-up but how about Rowan Atkinson, e.g.:
Mr. Bean's Holiday (2007)
... aka Mr. Bean macht Ferien
... aka Mr. Bean's Vacation (USA)
... aka Vacances de Mr. Bean,


..And of course Norman Wisdom went down a treat in Albania
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1251406.stm


John Cleese & other English Pythons? Benny Hill?
(haven't researched the extent of their international appeal)

So there ;-)


Now, what was the original topic?!

203

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 11/09/2008 17:29:05
#283 Indeed it is

#284 I did not say that, I think there are many positive reasins that cab be put forward for Independence but the romantic brigadoon rubbish isn't one of them.
204

DaveK,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 17:33:24
The racism exhibited by many of my fellow countrymen on here beggars belief, it is embarassing and downright shameful. The only problem is people who act in such a manner cannot be anything but what they are and were Scotland to be " a nation again" whatever the bl*ody hell that is meant to mean, they will resort to type and turn on themselves - disgraceful.
205

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 11/09/2008 17:33:58
#290

Funny that because that is exactly what the cultural differences are apparently, country dancing and bagpipes.
206

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 11/09/2008 17:45:37
#295

I am not English and i am proud scot and a Brit like most people in the country.
207

brownlie,

Scalpay 11/09/2008 17:47:08
293 All politicians etc etc

To get back to the article - Despite any perceived cultural similarities or otherwise if the English were having a Commission on devolving from the UK Parliament I would not expect them to come and visit me in the Western Isles to ask for my comments or opinions.

Would you expect them to do so?
208

European Scot,

11/09/2008 17:47:49
292 DaveK

" The racism exhibited by many of my fellow countrymen on here beggars belief, it is embarassing and downright shameful."

This has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with racism.
It means regarding Scotland as a country, and having it run its own affairs as every other country does.
It's rather like human beings, when we get to a certain age, we like our own independence, to run our own lives the way we think fit.
Not to have Mummy and Daddy tell us what to do.
Or are you not yet in a position to appreciate that yet ?!
209

brownlie,

11/09/2008 17:48:28
296

Are you so proud of being a Scot that you call yourself a scot?
210

Ken S.,

Reading 11/09/2008 17:53:04
#289 Dave from Barra ©

Billy Connolly is better.

Got an Irish grandfather, you know
.
.
.
.
.
211

DaveK,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 18:03:31
295
Both illiterate and unintelligent and ultimately proving my point thanks
212

DaveK,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 18:10:21
Perhaps you should read earlier posts on here or should I take it as tacit agreement?
213

Eric D,

Alba 11/09/2008 18:10:26
No 4 - Thomas you are wrong !. They own us and we know it.
You should be aware of George Rosie's STV documentary titled "The Englishing of Scotland" it reveals the almost total domination of Scotland by the English. Not only have they virtually colonized the highlands and Islands, Galloway, Inverness, Fife , Perthshire and of course Edinburgh, they now dominate the ancient Universities, cultural organisation, Big Business etc. So why shouldn't we consult them after all they own us.
214

Truely English,

11/09/2008 18:12:06
301
It surely cannot be the same Dave from Barra who was so pro-English language and very against Gaelic a number of months ago. I must have the wrong person.

Anyway, we must thank John Arbuthnott the Scotsman who created the British John Bull for making all people in Scotland, British.
215

Ananurhing,

11/09/2008 18:16:21
Hopefully when the Calman roadshow crosses the Tweed/Rubicon, it'll be better attended than it has been here so far. By the likes of Kimba and the English Taxpayers Falange. What other kind of representations are they going to get in England on a purely Scottish issue? Most people from England either agree with Scottish independence, or are ambivolent about it.
Then Calman will have to report back to his paymasters that the games a bogey. It's gone too far and independence will have to be considered as an option. The genie's out the bottle now.
I'm sure there will be a lame horse of an offering to preserve the union, but that'll quickly be turned into dog meat.
216

Venerable Bede,

11/09/2008 18:25:13
282 - no, your stupidity is quite independent from whoever you support politically. Your argument is total guff. There are plenty of people who can make a coherent argument for or against Scottish Nationalism. You have done neither.
217

Jimmy Le Pie,

11/09/2008 18:33:03
Could someone ask the English if they know when the Glenrothes by-election will be called???

"The electorate deserve representation" said before the hastily held Crewe and Glasgow East by-elections, by our Dear Leader, Comrade Broon.
218

David MacVicar,

web 11/09/2008 18:36:23
Venerable Bede,

I dont care if you are from Scotland, England or the planet Zogon but you make intelligent posts, so please continue ;)

As for Calman and English thoughts:

A closed meeting in Scotland of self selected like- minded Scottish Unionists is no more representative of current public opinion than the parallel process in England.
Bottom line - Nobody actually cares or opinion counts, except those in the clique that are involved in it.

The Calman commision will soon be forgotten except for some historians bringing it up over a beer for a good laugh. 'Remember Calman? What drugs were they on? Calman, oh yeah, the guy representing Glasgow Univerity and the British Union, just how do you square that circle?'
219

Stuntman Mike,

11/09/2008 18:58:58
#314 MacVicar: either that, or the Scottish separatist movement of the late 20th century/early 21st will every bit as mystifying to future generations as the Corn Laws. The world is moving towards wider entities and organisations, but you Nutty Nats just don't get it.
220

Truely English,

11/09/2008 19:07:44
I am also informed that the great Scottish poet Rabbie Burns was also very British in outlook and aspiration.
Could the reason be that this gave Scots lots of opportunities in the British Empire for making vast amounts of money as middlemen, slave owners and bean counters.

Naturally, there was much wealth in shipping slaves and other cargo from Africa to the Americas and to Britain. Glasgow was the second City of the Empire until very recently.

Britain and the English language gives all sorts of new directions to the Scots, so why throw these away needlessly; Rabbie Burns never did.
221

ThomasP,

11/09/2008 19:24:40
#316

Troll.

222

European Scot,

11/09/2008 19:30:30
315 Stuntman Mike

" The world is moving towards wider entities and organisations, but you Nutty Nats just don't get it."

More and more countries have achieved their Independence in the last century, many of them coming from your glorious British Empire.
Note the word 'achieve', which like 'gain' are used in conjunction with the word Independence.
It is a positive thing of course, which people always celebrate.
As a Unionist, far more used to all things negative, anything positive would of course appear to be alien.
Sadly, that is something you don't get.
223

Scotty F,

The Borders 11/09/2008 19:57:24
Iam sick of the ignorance and arrogance of the Nationalists in this country!!! They are constantly shouting from the roof tops claiming they represent the people of Scotlands opnions. Here is a fact THEY DONT!!! I hate Nationalism and all it stands for in this country and i hate that fat pig in Bute House. This country needs constructive and honest politics unlike the populist policies of the SNP, blaming Westminster for everything and anything under the sun!!! Like or not many people in Scotland want to remain part of the UK but want the union to move forward and thats what the Calman commision is all about to see a revised devolved settlement to balance the Union. It is only right that the Northumbrians and Cumbrians are asked about the knock on effect it would have, as down here we have a close relationship with our cousins across the Border. Its a shame you pig ignorant central belt ghetto babies dont know that!!! Scottish born and bred and proud to be BRITISH!!!!
224

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 11/09/2008 20:03:03
320, Scotty F, so you are a British Nationalist.
225

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 11/09/2008 20:07:16
Let's face it. This Calman thing is a joke. A propaganda exercise. Instigated by unionists for the sake of unionism.
226

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 11/09/2008 20:08:57
re 322. And unionism is British nationalism.
227

brownlie,

11/09/2008 20:08:59
320 Scotty

Do you mean the constructive and honest politics that successive Tory and Labour Governments have provided the UK with for decades?

Those same successive Governments' manifestos were based on populist policies to attract voters. Small wonder that voters have become apathetic and frustrated by the subsequent breaches of their manifestos.

You do your contentions no favours by referring to Salmond as a "fat pig". I'm sure if he knew you he'd be equally complimentary but infinitely more subtle.
228

brownlie,

11/09/2008 20:28:11
326 Col. Blimp

Evening, colonel, I believe you'll find it in public libraries under "Fiction".

I wonder if Wilson would still recognise the Labour party if he was around?
229

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 11/09/2008 20:29:33
Scotty F

"...i hate that fat pig in Bute House. This country needs constructive and honest politics.."

Cute piece of text. Abusive and two-faced at the same time.

Says a lot about the person who wrote it.

Tell me Scotty. Do you agree with the Labour party in Scotland? They oppose everything the SNP proposes, whether they truly agree with it or not. Is this the kind of "constructive and honest politics" you are talking about?

And one more thing. In a few years' time, will David Cameron ask the Scottish people whether an English Grand Committee is a good idea or not?
230

European Scot,

11/09/2008 20:31:40
320 Scotty F

" I hate Nationalism and all it stands for in this country and i hate that fat pig in Bute House "

" Its a shame you pig ignorant central belt ghetto babies dont know that!!! Scottish born and bred and proud to be BRITISH!!!! "

Somehow your earlier comments above, seemed a natural lead in to your final few words.
Have you ever thought about travelling more ?
Visiting other countries perhaps, outside of your 'UK', it so broadens the mind.
To see other people, in other Nations, running their own affairs, and not being told what to do by their neighbours.
It's such a great thing to experience, non Unionists call it Independence.
It's something you yourself can look forward to one day.
231

Eric D,

renfrew 11/09/2008 20:38:08
No 320 - Born on the wrong side of the border by the sound of things. parents Saxons were they ?
232

ewan McD,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 20:39:36
I think some of the posts here arn't reading between the lines of this story and what calman is trying to do.

if and when scotland gets its indipendance its probably best if we keep friendly with our southern and closest neighbour. by doing this consultation in england he is minimising any anti scottish feeling for the future (good idea if you ask me - diplomacy in the making). in truth it prob wont have a huge bearing on the outcome - its the kind of thinking we need.
233

Truely English,

11/09/2008 20:44:18
Whether the Scots like it or not if their first language is English and were born on British soil, then of course they are either English or British. What else could they be?

Our country is built on English culture be it in the artistic field like the cinema, the theatre, the Edinburgh Festival, The Edinburgh Fringe, etc.,

The Private schools and the other school systems are all English and their students/pupils would have no difficulty fitting into either Public Schools or other schools in England.

Our British history is littered with Scottish people promoting the English culture and language in every form from books to the television and radio even at this very moment and why not? We are British deep down after all where it really counts in our hearts and minds.

What one wears or how one dances or what laws are around an individual is of secondary importance as they affect one so little on a day to day basis.
234

brownlie,

11/09/2008 20:50:05
331 Ewan

Ewan, I fail to see how a party of Scottish nobs on a condescending visit to the North East of England could make any possible contribution to developing friendships.

Despite banter between "ordinary" English and Scots there is already a great deal of friendliness which will not be diluted by independence.

235

Scotty F,

The Borders 11/09/2008 20:50:24
Where on Earth did i say i was a British Nationalist???
Oh no more narrow minded ringfencing and cliaming Scotland all for themselves Scottish Nats!!! If your also proud to be British get lost!!! Typical and Petulant of Nationalists.
I study Scottish History at post Graduate level so iam well placed to comment on Scotlands track record within the Union. Contrary to the piffle above iam no racist ( My ex Gf is from Goa in India) to refer to Britain, and the fact that iam EQUALLY proud to be British and Scottish as British Nationalism is indeed "Odious and Offensive". Nationalism has no place in modern Britain whatever its genre, Nationalism is ignorant, arrogant and ultimately divisive which almost always leads to some form of confrontation something to which i do not subscribe and do not wish to see in the UK.

Moreover where did i say that all other parties are Honest? All politicians are equally as bad as eachother The next time i vote will be NO in a possible independance referendum. Why should a Borderer, a Highlander or a Glaswegian pay for free passage over bridges they will very rarely use?? Answers on a Postcard.
The only reason the Union has become unbalanced is largely because of devolution in Scotland,Wales and N Ireland, with England left with nothing. In my opinion the UK should become federalised to bring the UK forward for the benefit of all four of the home nations. The laughlable comments above only serve to highlight the sheer arrogance of the nationalists and their cause. Moreover the comments also enlighten us to the fact that the Nationalists are not prepared to listen to their countrymen who do not agree (And just shout even louder), my comments are far from extreme and are genuine concern. Its about time Col. BlimpIV and is Nat chums looked at Scottish Nationalism in Context and bring to heel their "extreme, odius, offensive" and downright awfull comments about the rest of our cousins around the UK.

Stronger together weaker apart
236

brownlie,

11/09/2008 20:53:28
337 Col Blimp

No, I think he/she's taking the pith!
237

brownlie,

11/09/2008 20:59:53
333 Truely

I know I shouldn't but here goes.

I am a Scot. I was not born on British soil and English is not my first language. I had to learn English, including spelling, in school.

With the greatest respect and after much consideration, I really do not know what point you are trying to make.

Do you?
238

European Scot,

11/09/2008 21:04:15
320 Scotty F

"Scottish born and bred and proud to be BRITISH!!!!

336 Scotty F

" Nationalism has no place in modern Britain whatever its genre, Nationalism is ignorant, arrogant and ultimately divisive which almost always leads to some form of confrontation something to which i do not subscribe and do not wish to see in the UK. "

Your starter for ten, spot the contradiction.
239

Eve,

Scotland 11/09/2008 21:12:31
The Calman Commission are thoes people still dectating to us about what we can discuss and can't discuss.

The poor Nothern English people will they be tauled what they can talk about as well OR is that just reseved to Scotland!
240

brownlie,

11/09/2008 21:14:11
340 EuroScot

Nice one!

Oidche mhath!!
241

Scotty F,

The Borders 11/09/2008 21:20:11
Here is a Contardiction "European Scot"

The SNP want to leave the UK but then hand a good proprtion of powers over to the unelected European commision, and then enter the European currency where intrest rates are set in Frankfurt. Where is the Independance in that???

Iam a supporter of the EU, we benefit well from our membership, however i do not believe in handing more powers over to Brussels which for some reason the SNP are happy to do!!!

"Your starter for ten, spot the Contradiction"

Iam Scottish born and bred which ultimately means iam British born and bred and iam proud of them both.

Iam Patriotic not Nationlistic. There is a difference.
242

Eve,

Scotland 11/09/2008 21:21:56
#340 European Scot: Have you know heard the rules of the Calman Commission. Heres a few of them:

Never mutter a word about independence.

It's alright to have national pride as long as you have it for the union too.

Being proud to be Brittish is NOT nationlism it's something else. (NOT being a uninonist, I don't no what it is)

243

Higgs Boson,

Glasgow 11/09/2008 21:22:19
Union not fit for purpose.

Independence now.
244

Scotty F,

The Borders 11/09/2008 21:33:37
I Beg to differ Blimp, my chain of argument is that the SNP are not a majority and that there are alot of people in Scotland who are happy to remain a part of the UK and some like me are also proud to be British. Why can you and your Nat chums not accept that?
Just for the record, We are a part of the UN we are on the security council, we are a key member of NATO and the commonwealth so what are you on about?? We have a Scottish Prime minister and a Scottish Chancellor and Scottish Defence secretary, we seem to be doing well by the looks of things.
245

Eve,

Scotland 11/09/2008 21:38:19
#346 Higgs Boson: Aye
246

ThomasP,

11/09/2008 21:50:26
#348

Security Council. Scotland lives in poverty while London plays super power? (not that we are a super power)

NATO - America is a key member. Britain? No we arent. NATO needs a super power and that is America, not Britain.

The Chancellor is actaually English. Born in London, raised there to.

We will see who wins the referendum

;-)
247

European Scot,

11/09/2008 21:54:41
344 Scotty F

" The SNP want to leave the UK but then hand a good proprtion of powers over to the unelected European commision, and then enter the European currency where intrest rates are set in Frankfurt. Where is the Independance in that??? "

The SNP would gain powers for Scotland that it doesn't currently have by taking it into the EU.
It would have a voice, a vote, and a recognition, not just in Europe, but around the World as a Country, and a Nation.
As a consequence of being an Independent country it would also sit at the United Nations alongside the other members..
It would manage its own economy, including the oil revenues, the UK are so desperate to hang on to, which at 25 million a day, is not exactly surprising.
Scotland would actually have powers by being in the EU, as compared with the powers that Scotland currently has by remaining in the UK, which in international terms is nothing !
I would far rather have a fully recognised country in Europe, than a powerless and voiceless 'region' of the UK / Angleterre.
Scotland has been smothered by the 'UK' for far too long.

I am Scots born, and that's all, and I am quite proud of that.
248

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 11/09/2008 21:55:28
Scotty F

Your language itself is 'ignorant, arrogant and divisive'. You seem to have a lot to say, but are unable to get your point across fairly without being aggressive or abusive. You may well have a good knowledge of Scottish history, but nobody will listen when you talk the way you do. No hearts and minds will be won over to your federal cause. (I mean "pig ignorant central belt ghetto babies". Come on.)

Try to look at it in a different way. I work with people from a number of different countries who have settled in Scotland. As you can imagine, at least one of them is English. From time to time, we talk about current affairs, and without prompting, a number of them have said they would vote for the SNP and independence. This is clearly not a 'nationalistic' thing, but they have truly recognised that on many levels, the SNP Government have listened to the people who live in Scotland, and acted in their interests. You may call this 'populous', but remember, politicians are elected to serve the people, not the other way round. My colleagues have also witnessed little difference between UK Labour and Tory, and that both seem out of touch with the lives of many who live in Scotland.

Try to think a little differently.

249

European Scot,

11/09/2008 22:07:14
345 Eve

Good evening Eve !

I don't think you and I would be qualified to appreciate the rules, and subtleties of the Calman Commission, only a Unionist can fully understand the true significance of its purpose.
For the rest of us it seems like a Unionist Commission, set up by Unionist parties, which has been filled with Unionists, who were chosen by Unionists, and headed by a Unionist.
What could be fairer than that ? ....... To a Unionist !
250

European Scot,

11/09/2008 22:11:06
343 Brownlie

Cheers !
251

European Scot,

11/09/2008 22:33:37
357 Col.Blimp1V

" You reckon this Calman Commission will come down in favour of the Union then? "

I wouldn't want to commit myself, lest I lead you astray !
252

brownlie,

11/09/2008 22:52:37
357 Col.Blimp

Do you think that question is what a previous poster referred to as rhetoric(al)?
253

Matt there,

somewhere 11/09/2008 23:30:59
This is a trick!

The answer Brown and Labour Scotland want is: "no extra powers."

However, they are not stupid enough to come out with this so they set up a fake "let's ask the English" exercise so that they can get the answer they want and a scapegoat in the form of the English.
254

john z,

edinburgh 11/09/2008 23:50:19
Honestly, I have never heard of such pathetic knee bending deference of one nation to another. What in god's name has it to do with the Engerlish.

If anyone was in any doubt how much of a sham that this exercise is, well here's the ultimate proof. Mr Calman, will go down in history books of Scotland for all the worst reasons. Talk about selling your integrity.

For Heavens sake Calman, get a grip would you.
255

john z,

edinburgh 11/09/2008 23:55:37
Number 347 Scotty F

You are quite correct, we do have a Scottish prime minister, he's called Alex Salmond. He's doing a very good job.

Much better than the Pseudo Englishman Gordon Brown, who talked for some time today on live TV about how well the English squad played last night. What a fake.
256

john z,

edinburgh 12/09/2008 00:04:07
Number 178

You are aware that If 'the wall' was rebuilt, us Scots would be very happy, but a lot of folks in Newcastle would be a bit miffed, at 'the wall' going through their house. I mean you did know that Hadrians' wall ran far south of the current Scottish border and into the centre of Newcastle Upon Tyne didn't you??
257

Scotty F,

The Borders 12/09/2008 11:34:49
Andrew BOD.
Thats a little rich considering that day in day out we all have to put up with the SNP on television and debates (such as the one in Edinburgh at the start of the summer run by the Scotsman) where there were a number of aggresive and abrasive attitudes and aversion towards the Union and to those scots who also see themselves as British (refers to the above argument concerning the Prime Minister Gordon Brown), coupled with silly argument linking almost every scottish problem back to London.Why iam i not allowed to see myself as Scottish and British and have to put up with an earful nationalist rubbish everyday? Why cant Nationalists accept that they are not the majority??? Can someone please answer that? You cant because the key policy is not popular. If we were completely different to our Welsh, English and Irish cousins then maybe Independance would be popular here but we are not and so hence Independance is not.
I do not intend to try and convince anyone on the UK because in the UK you are allowed to be who you want to be and thats one thing i like about this country. Andrew my language such as "Ghetto babies" was a little humour on a serious subject so stop being talking down to anyone who disagrees like the typical Nationalist. And the last time i checked the SNP were Nationlists so they are Nationlistic.
258

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 12/09/2008 22:41:31
Scotty F

"..day in day out we all have to put up with the SNP on television.."

What are you talking about? Have you lost your mind?

The BBC and ITV run TV news stories. The SNP runs the Scottish Government. Why wouldn't they be on TV? Get real. Switch the channel if you can only listen to one viewpoint. How childish.
259

Media 1,

cape town 29/09/2008 21:21:15
I wish we could close down Holyrood and allow Westminster to do its job.....All this nonsense emitting from Scotland is so dangerous and so foolish!
It is also embarrassing, the SNP are destroying Scotlands image.

 

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