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Published Date: 18 October 2008
HBOS shareholders should be allowed to vote on whether their bank should be part-nationalised and remain independent, one of Scotland's leading businessmen said last night.
Jim Spowart, the founder of Intelligent Finance, said the option should be on the table alongside the bank's proposed takeover by Lloyds TSB.

By presenting the two cases equally, he believes the bank would allow shareholders to have a clearer view of the strengths and weaknesses of both routes. At present, shareholders are set to only have a yes or no vote on the takeover deal.

His intervention came as an investment bank told The Scotsman HBOS could survive with its part of a government cash injection.

Under that scheme, shareholders would be left with 30-40 per cent of the Scottish institution while the Treasury would take on the rest. It would give HBOS the chance to stabilise its books and return to a fully private position further down the line.

The calculation by boutique investment company Euro-IB would leave HBOS in a similar position to RBS, which is to concede 60 per cent ownership.

It comes as questions are growing over whether shareholders' interests were properly represented in the negotiations about the bank's future. Concerns have also been raised about the role non-executive directors had in the discussions.

Meanwhile, the Office of Fair Trading has extended the deadline for objections to the government waiving competition law to allow it to happen. The date has been put back to allow correspondents to revise their submissions in the light of the changing financial climate.

The move was requested by the government's Business Enterprise and Regulatory Reform department. Mr Spowart said the option of a government buyout would have made such a waiver unnecessary.

He said: "We don't know what the other option is and the board should have considered that option. If the board say this option is better than the other because of X, Y and Z, fine, but the government seem to have put a gun to their head.

"Option B is the nationalisation part – of 30 per cent and that would mean we would be able to retain independence. I think the shareholders should get to vote on this – do they want an independent bank or one swallowed up by Lloyds?"

This week, The Scotsman revealed a consortium of businessmen across a wide spectrum of industries – including Sir Tom Farmer – had written to politicians north and south of the Border expressing concerns. Yesterday, investment analyst Ian Blackford of First Seer joined the list.

A second letter, from Euro-IB, has also gone to Westminster's Treasury select committee demanding further answers before the competition law is waived.

Written by Alexander von Ungern-Sternberger, the chief executive of the firm and a former group treasurer of Deutsche Bank, it states: "In finance, as in politics, decisions taken in haste are sometimes repented at leisure. One fears this may be the case with this proposed transaction.

"The merger never made sense from the point of view of the HBOS shareholders (wrong solution to the liquidity problem), the customers of either bank (competition issues), Lloyds shareholders (weakened capital structure due to acquisition burden) or the employees of either bank (job losses).

"No argument favouring the merger remains other than concerns about further declines in UK house prices further weakening HBOS (due to the property-skewed loan portfolio) and less well defined political arguments (relating to Scotland, the SNP and the Labour Party)."

His colleagues also calculated how much of a share in HBOS the government would have if it recapitalised the bank on the share price Lloyds valued it at the time.

However, Shane O'Riordain of HBOS said: "It would be very wrong for any company, including HBOS, to base its business model on state help.

"It's also wrong for any business to assume that government schemes are a complete substitute for normal market forces. They are not."

He said the bank was still of the view that the deal was best for its stakeholders.

The institution, he said, was of the view that "the world has changed irredeemably in the last 12 months of so. In particular, the outlook for wholesale money markets has changed. The era of high liquidity and easy credit is over and will not be returning".

Mr O'Riordain said: "In the new world there will be much less wholesale money available and it will be a lot more expensive. It's therefore very important that HBOS is part of a bigger and stronger group which is able to raise a lot more funding of its own. That's crucial for a bank. The deal does exactly that.

"We have an excellent group of non-executive directors with extensive experience of the commercial world, including banking. They have very carefully considered the options available to HBOS. That is why our board is recommending shareholders vote in favour of our proposed acquisition."

• It was announced yesterday that Sir Fred Goodwin, the chief executive of RBS, will step down from the role and that of executive director on 21 November. His replacement, Stephen Hester, will take up the role on that date but Sir Fred will remain with the group until 31 January.



Readers voice their concerns over deal

"I'm going to vote against the takeover. I feel it's a simple political ploy, a hugely Machiavellian ploy, by Brown to weaken the whole Scottish culture and economy."

George Cunningham, 73, retired insurance director, Musselburgh

"If the takeover goes ahead, I will close my Bank of Scotland account. I have been with the bank for 40 years and was satisfied with them until the 'merger' with Halifax when all priorities changed. I have no intention of now becoming a Lloyds customer. Please keep up the pressure."

Kate McGibbon, Isle of Cumbrae

"I worked for the Bank of Scotland when it merged with Halifax, and at the time it felt like the ethos of the organisation was changing and something was being lost. I'm worried not just worried for the bank but for Scotland."

Margaret Finnie, 66, Cardrona near Peebles.

"As an HBOS shareholder I have been forced to sell my shares, resulting in a serious loss. I had put aside money which was supposed to be something for when I retire. I'm outraged with the way that the deal has been handled."

Ashar Aftab, 33, economics lecturer at Durham University, from Edinburgh






The full article contains 1079 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 18 October 2008 12:33 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Halifax Bank of Scotland
 
1

Jock MacSprog,

18/10/2008 00:03:09
another "leading scottish businessman" with an opinion, but no money to mount a rival bid. The shareholders combined do not have sufficient percentage to block the sale. So..... despite the populist wind up exercise that the Scotsman and some c list business men desperate for attention and publicity seem intent on waging, the sale will go through unless a serious bidder with a lot of dosh appears. Next story, time to move on.
2

,

18/10/2008 00:06:20
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3

,

18/10/2008 00:11:26
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4

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 00:25:25


'Give HBOS investors a vote on go-it-alone bailout'

Behave yourselves! If one had a modicum of intelligence, one would realise that HBOS fate has been sealed already.

NO-ONE, ABSOLUTELY NO-ONE will change anything now!

And that is the reality, so stop the dreaming!
5

,

18/10/2008 00:40:35
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6

Evolution in action,

St Andrews 18/10/2008 00:42:50

Let the market run it's course. Trying to save this company now is just pushing the price down for the shareholders since it is likely not a viable business and the longer this goes on the lower the price it can command. Where was all teh fiscal responsibilty 9 months ago when it was needed.
7

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 00:43:19

Jwil ~5,

The Dealing was done months ago!, the,...

.....'nail-in-the-coffin' was done a week ago!
8

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 00:44:47

Pound shares, now Penny shares, who cares,?
9

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 00:53:30

...."who cares,?..

As in there is nothing now that can be done to save the HBOS, further-more, it was the Banks that sealed their fate years ago, with greed, nothing but greed!

£40.00 for every Penny overdrawn, by one second, was daylight robbery!

What goes around, comes around! It is nothing more than they deserve!!!
10

Andy Mac,

Kuwait of the North 18/10/2008 00:55:49
Wikipedia says the Bank of Scotland belongs to some London bank...

Who could offer a rival bid? RBS? Donald Trump? Contacts of Salmond's "elders"?

Would the UK govt. waive the rules for a rival bid, or does the earth have to be scorched at all costs?
11

,

18/10/2008 00:55:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
12

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 01:03:59

Lets put it another way!

You have 10 direct debits on your accout.

Your Company that you work for, pay your wages into your account at 12.30 am instead of midnight,

The banks charges are £400,00 for late payment at one tenth of a second past midnight,

NO MERCY!!!!

Not bad,.. 'HUH' £800.00 per hour for doing NOTHING!

TEARS! YOU MUST BE JOKING!!!


13

Andy Mac,

Kuwait of the North 18/10/2008 01:13:15
Sorry Charles Linskaill, but you're a bit too hysteric in your urging people to "move along" / "the bank is buried" for someone who allegedly doesn't care.

HBOS' capital is good

14

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 01:25:02

Andy Mac ~13,

"HBOS' capital is good"

Maybe so, but at close 80pence a share, from over 800,00 pence a share, speaks volumes,

We can all 'rant-on' like Mupppet's all we want, nothing will change now,'mark-my-words'

The saying!,,,"Reap what you sow" has come the HBOS.

Their Judgement-day is over.
15

Andy Mac,

Kuwait of the North 18/10/2008 01:29:19
Sorry Charles Linskaill, but I thought you didn't care and that all the banks should suffer equally; but again you take the time to type a post targeting HBOS as the cause of world financial woes.

A hypothetical question: if HBOS could survive independently would you support that?
16

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 01:35:09

A £10,000.00 investment in HBOS now worth less than £1,000,00 is prety good going,

Are we to say,..'Well-Done',.. HBOS,?

I Dont think So!
17

Andy Mac,

Kuwait of the North 18/10/2008 01:41:29
Charles Linskaill, do I 'rant' like a 'muppet'?

Stock markets are "speaking volumes" but not just HBOS shares. The crash is global, as the 'rant' of many a 'muppet' will testify.

I with you on not thinking anyone should congratulate HBOS, but if HBOS could survive independently would you support that?

That question again:

If HBOS could survive independently would you support that?
18

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 01:41:55


Andy Mac ~15,

" if HBOS could survive independently would you support that?"

If they broke away from the hysteria of greed at the same time, and became more like the traditional,...

Bank of Scotland, that the forefathers made them, then,..

YES! I would support them 101% and the rest!
19

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 01:56:57


Andy Mac ~17,

"do I 'rant' like a 'muppet'?"

NO! You do not!

But later today, you will most likely see the thread full of them, everyone can have opinion, of-corse, but people saying HBOS can be saved is a waste of breath, in my opinion, which unfortunatly is correct, more than I wish it to be.

Call it a 'sixth sense'.
20

Andy Mac,

Kuwait of the North 18/10/2008 01:58:17
Chancellor Darling seemed particularly keen to stress the done-dealness of the merger as the govt. managed the whole press release while commons and lords agreed to waive rules....

HBOS' capital ratio is not its share price
21

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 02:18:12

Andy Mac ~20,

"HBOS' capital ratio is not its share price"

OK!

So why do Government now hold, the ,..'Calling Cards'?
22

Charles MN,

18/10/2008 02:42:56
As a shareholder of HBOS I have been looking for information for to explain the drop in share price. So far I have seen nothing that justifies the massive drop we have seen.

So far I have heard gossip and rumours but the only hard facts I have been presented with are the HBOS accounts which show a profitable company.

Before any I, or any other shareholder, can make a decision we need sufficent information to make an informed choice.

It does seem that certain people have have been fed information that the shareholders have not. In particular it seems that Robert Peston of the BBC has been very well informed. If he has been fed inside info then who else has?

If anyone has any real information, i.e. backed by numbers, perhaps they could post it here.
23

Guga II,

Rockall 18/10/2008 04:59:17
What it boils down to is that Maggie Broon, a.k.a. Toom Tabard, is trying to white ant the Scottish economy. He is hell bent on selling out Scotland and the Scottish people.

If he wants to sell off the Halifax barrow boys to his mates at Lloyds, fair enough, but he is more concerned about destroying the Scottish economy for his base political ends.

This Quisling needs to be sent a strong message on November 6th.
24

AB_R,

18/10/2008 06:41:31
There are 2 shareholder votes on this, one each for HBoS and Lloyds. In the case of HBoS, it requires 75% of the vote for the takeover to take place.
25

Auld Twa,

18/10/2008 06:44:25
#25 bring them on
"I am open to debate."
Now that's a new approach for you !
26

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 07:02:00
Surprising that the assessment of the implications, financing and the competition waiver could all be carried out in hours for the HBOS - Lloyds TSB merger.
Brown and Darling have not been noted for their rapid action in the past.
27

Martyk,

18/10/2008 09:10:54
The Irish gov jumped in with a blanket guarantee for their 6 fin inst and pretty much solved the prob instantly as far as I can see. And they were widely attacked for it. They seem not to have spent a single euro as far as I can tell. Indeed they are charging the favoured 6 ten % of their profits over 2 years for coming under the scheme. Compare and contrast the treatment of Scotlands banks and the cost to the Brit taxpayer. And Brown is a financial genius? Hmm.
28

The Strategist,

18/10/2008 09:38:31
Interesting that nobody has commented on the new guy taking over from Fred Goodwin at RBS. This is certainly worth a read..

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/article1290133.ece
29

The Strategist,

18/10/2008 09:39:43
Oh and the other question is what's happened to Scottish Enterprise? Haven't heard a peep from what's his face... The beancounter that runs it.
30

shivago8,

livingston 18/10/2008 09:42:13
Sad,sad that we are losing this great institution and people are making silly jokes about it.

For gods sake Scotland,stand up please and stop this stupidity.

We just cant lose one of our great assets.

31

Martyk,

18/10/2008 09:44:35
Any sort of counter bid for HBOS to keep it Scottish is simply wishful thinking. The figures are truly horrendous. A more fruitful avenue may be for the gov to strip out Halifax and Natwest and all the overseas assets of RBS and merge whats left into a National Bank of Scotland based obviously in Edinburgh. Money recieved for these assets would largely repay the taxpayer and what would remain would let us start again with one truly Scots , viable bank. Hopefully with a lesson painfully learnt.
32

Martyk,

18/10/2008 09:48:18
38...People seem to genuinely think that HBOS could somehow go it alone. Without gov suport they are bankrupt. There is no room for debate here. HBOS is finished and thank God for LTSB.
33

Corstorphinery,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 09:59:01
"As an HBOS shareholder I have been forced to sell my shares, resulting in a serious loss. I had put aside money which was supposed to be something for when I retire. I'm outraged with the way that the deal has been handled."

Ashar Aftab, 33, economics lecturer at Durham University, from Edinburgh

Eh? When were you planning on retiring bud, 35?
34

,

18/10/2008 10:22:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
35

Evan Owen,

Snowdonia 18/10/2008 10:39:10
Like turkeys voting for Christmas?
36

Buckfastleigh,

Dartmouth the jolly Roger 18/10/2008 11:35:27
I smell a rat. This UK government is hell bent on breaking all the rules to get its way with the Banks. Sure it's tax payers who will foot the bill; even more reason to take it through the hoops.

To start with it snails along until it's absolutely forced to nationalize Northern Rock (and this at a time Gordon's policies on the Euro showed how foolish he was to introduce and insist on his five tests not to join it); then he blames all these foreigners for putting British Banks under pressure.

He seizes the Icelandic Bank assets under the Terrorism Order (quite arbitrarily) forcing this small country into insolvency. Now he waives the competition regulations to ensure a shotgun wedding between a reluxctant and proud Scottish Bank and a reluctant Lloyds/tsb because Banco de Santander was in the running to take it over?.

Scotland deserves to maintain a truly separate Bank so PM dont be surprised if for other reasons LloysdTsb shareholders turn the dubious honour of thisshotgun marriage down.

How daft can we be to listen to such treasury pressures when we can all remember how the great Mutual Standard Life of Edinburg was forced to divest itself of major assets to conform to a whim of the accountants in order to become a mere Limited Company and what did that do to the reputation of Scotland?

Is the PM leading us again in the glorious English historic role of piracy, taking advantage of small countries via the Bank grabs?
37

Charles MN,

18/10/2008 11:40:59
#52
'Ask to see the BOS Loan Book.'

Have you read HBOS's accounts? They are on their web site.

'Did Brown tell them to do so'

Brown is telling them to do it now: "The Prime Minister said that the newly nationalised banks had agreed to restore lending to 2007 levels.".




38

Publius,

Girvan 18/10/2008 11:45:18
What will happen if either HBOS shareholders or LloydsTSB shareholders vote no the merger?
I know several small shareholders in LloydsTSB who intend to vote no, but they are realistic enough to know that institutional shareholders will carry the Lloyds vote one way or the other. But there are lot of small shareholders in HBOS.
39

noswod,

Honestas 18/10/2008 11:47:31
Face up to it the banks have gone, Scotland will decline to the backwater it has always been. Theres nothing like a Scotsman on the make to ensure political survival to sell the country's assets doon the pan. This is the Broons plan to kill off nationalism, reinstate Socialism and take the UK back to 1947. Slamond & his henchwoman keep on bleating for more cash this time its free central heating for those locked into the dependency culture, not only its free methadone, free hoosing its now free central heating in your socially rented Gregor Shore socially provided flat while hardworking folk lose their jobs and savings and the economy collapses.
40

Charles MN,

18/10/2008 12:00:13
Sorry in #53 I should have been replying to #51.

The problem is that to keep the housing market ticking over we need large amounts of money to lend. We also need someone to take the significant risk that some of that money won't be paid back. That risk up till now has been taken by the shareholders of the banks at massive cost to them. Going into a recession it looks like no shareholder with any sense would be willing to take that risk for the returns being offered.

In the 30's the US was in the same situation and the government set up 'Fannie Mae' and 'Freddy Mac' to lend money for mortgages and to take the risk of default. Perhaps a ( better controlled ) version of that is required here.
41

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 18/10/2008 12:35:24
It has become apparent to everyone that the Forced Merger of Lloyds and HBOS is more motivated by politics than sound business considerations. Even the most rabid of Unionists would admit, if they are honest, that the structure was designed to do as much damage to the Nationalist cause, no matter how much damage that will also inflict on the Scottish economy.

Now that members of the business community who put the economy ahead of partisan politics are speaking out, the rabid unionists have begun howling at the moon that this is a done deal and can not be changed.

These same jackals would rather see Scotland reduced to penury and unemployment as long as it serves their narrow political interests. They would rather ride roughshod over competition policy as long as it delivers a blow against their supposed country. They refuse the shareholders of the two banks a choice just like they wish to deny Scottish voters a choice whether to remain in the UK or not.

What you fail to realise is that public opinion is starting to see this as a stitch up. Rather than strengthening any argument to remain within the union, it has revealed the level of rot within your cause. The union has been unmasked as a stinking rotten corpse, and the rabid unionists as the rats that feed on it.

42

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 12:48:35
As this story unfolds, it becomes more and more evident that economic sabotage is the route chosen by Labour to drag up desperate arguments against independence. But as this moves on, the people of Scotland will have to ask whether Labour's rhetorical question of 'how much will independence cost?' should not be better replaced by 'How much will it cost us to stay in the Union?' - is the price to be demonstrable economic dependence? Will the discourse of Labour that we need England become true in fact and not only an unconvincing piece of rhetoric? Economic sabotage and political blackmail are palpable elements in Brown's 'exclusive interview' with Porter, an interview that was so nauseatingly fixed in the PM's favour that it made difficult watching. The price of not gaining independence quickly is now evident.
It is clear that the motives behind the conditionality (state aid on condition of merger) are political. Surely Alistair Darling realises that this should cost him his Westminster seat at the next election, but rarely has a politician been so expendable - will he be the next high commissioner to a small former colony?
I do not feel blackmailed, this just makes me hate them more and more, these rabid Labour hacks who have left vast swathes of this country in municipal underclass reservations in order to maintain a 'core vote'
This is a case of who blinks first as we approach a decision. We need to focus on the devastating effects that this takeover (not merger) will produce. Never has there been a better argument for independence than this. Labour are quite prepared to throw us to the wolves in order to keep Scottish representation at Westminster.
By the way, McGuire MP for Stirliing is a cheerleader for talking us all down. These hyenas don't speak for me.
43

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 13:14:49
60 Wee Fifer
How can pumping in £30bn of taxpayers money into two banks to save them constitute "economic sabotage"?

Some of the hysterical tirades of people on this topic reveal staggering levels of irrationality.
44

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 13:46:17
"It has become apparent to everyone that the Forced Merger of Lloyds and HBOS is more motivated by politics than sound business considerations. Even the most rabid of Unionists would admit, if they are honest, that the structure was designed to do as much damage to the Nationalist cause, no matter how much damage that will also inflict on the Scottish economy."

Oh dear - not another claim of a conspiracy theory. So the boards of HBOS, Lloyds TSB and the govt all colluded in this just to scupper the SNP. what will the next conspiracy theory be?
45

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 18/10/2008 13:51:10
#61 Ugly George

The insistence on adding preferred shares to the deal, even though they do not count at all towards Tier 1 Capital, at a predatory 12% interest rate shows the Governments true intentions.

And the insistence that the merger with Lloyds is the only option available to HBOS even though it is just as viable on its own as it would be merged.

How about they offer the same amount of funds but only for common shares?

This would create significantly stronger institutions and allow the banks to recover faster so that the Government could quickly divest their entire stake.
46

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 13:58:16
63 KampungHighlander
So if the deal is a stitch up to scupper Scotland why did Alex salmond welcome it?
47

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 18/10/2008 14:01:23
#62 Ugly George

Where did I say that the boards of the banks colluded?

The banks where told by the Government this is a take it or leave it offer. HBOS board felt it had little choice, being led by a Grocery Clerk probably did not help. Lloyds board felt this gives them a bailout and a significantly bigger bank to run, bigger bank = bigger bonuses.

It is interesting though that Barclay's who where offered the same amount of Capital, on similar terms, as Lloyds walked away. I guess the Government offer was not sweetened by the prospect of taking over another bank with the taxpayer footing the bill. Perhaps if they had offered them RBS they would have gone for it.
48

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 18/10/2008 14:03:04
#64

I dont know. Why dont you ask him.
49

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 14:09:42
63 KampungHighlander
PS I don't quite see the logic of the Scotsman's campaign anyway. If HBOS remains on its own the majority shareholder (by far) would be the UK govt. If Scotland became independent it would be entitled to a pro rata share of the govt's holding but this would only amount to about 7% of the company.

An independent Scotish govt would then have to buy out most of the remaing amount if it wanted the bank to become "Scottish". If the merger with Lloyds TSB goes ahead they could buy out part of it in the same way and nationalise it. So in the long run there is not much difference.

Anyway, HBOS was not really a Scottish company as it conducted the majority of its business elsewhere. Eveen with the merger the name "Bank of Scotland" will remain.
50

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 14:18:34
65 KampungHighlander
"HBOS board felt it had little choice"

Did the HBOS board ask if they could have the cash and be allowed to remain unmerged. If the article is correct in its assertion that the capital involved was enough to do so, why didn't they? Andy Hornby is on his way out now so he is free to speak and tell us all the details.
51

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 14:21:45
It is fast becoming obvious to the majority that the HBOS LloydsTSB merger which Brown is determined to push through is being done for political rather than financial reasons.

Isn't it ironic that the very measure designed to sink the good ship Independence is actually bringing unionists and nationalists together in Scotland to now question the need for a merger in the light of new developments.

It has even brought the Scotsman back to its traditional role of leading public opinion in the fight for all that is good for Scotland.

The Merger is taking in water fast and beginning to list.

Glenrothes will be the torpedo of public opinion which finally sinks the destroyer, HMS Brown and the Merger will go down with it.
52

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 14:23:51
65 KampungHighlander
I'm away now but just one final thought. There is another aspect to this. The purpose of a merger is (usually) to cut down costs and increase efficiencies by merging duplicate functions. It would therefore be reasonable to assume that the merged HBOS/Lloyds TSB could run more cheaply than the two separate banks. Did the govt not have a responsibility (even duty) to get the best deal it could for the taxpayer?
53

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 14:25:16
69 Brian Hill
Please see post 70
54

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 18/10/2008 14:30:29
#67 UglyGeorge

You seem to be getting off topic. We were discussing the merits of a merger/recapitalization to a standalone recapitalization.

You seem to be presuming a lot about how assets would be divided up when Scotland leaves.

Maybe we let England keep 100% of some of the Assets that they want like ICBM carrying subs and military bases in England for 100% of some of the assets that we want. To presume that when we leave that everything will be divided based on population is a bit silly.

What would Scotland want with 8% of Westminster Palace, though it might fetch a bit of money if you broke it up into flats or used it as an above ground storage facility for Nuclear Waste.
55

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 14:37:02
67 and earlier responses.
You just need to think things through a bit more, and try to stop thinking about things in such simple terms such as:
"How can pumping in £30bn of taxpayers money into two banks to save them constitute "economic sabotage"?" Why not, can you not think of scenarios when such a thing could constitute economic sabotage in the service of another goal? Have you no imagination? Do you just take what politicians say at face value? The crucial thing is that it depends on what you are trying to sabotage - like a Bank's headquarters for example.
As soon as this was done the BBC and Gordon Brown went out of their way to explain for us, not how this was economic salvation, but how it showed that independence is a nonstarter.
I admit that it was skilfully done, (repeated three times "stronger together, weaker apart") politics and economics reduced to nice simple either-ors for simpletons to pick up and think they have a bit of political understanding.
I think you need to have a bit of a more subtle understanding of things instead of screaming conspiracy theorist at people who dare to question the story.
67- "UK government is the majority shareholder" - a future Scottish government would have a percentage stake in other UK assets - that's why independence has to be negotiated - that then gets split up. And we can buy that stake back if we want - the same way the UK borrowed for the bail out in the first place.
Oh, and it is very much a Scottish Bank, headquartered in Edinburgh. LloydsTSB is headquartered in London.
So I gather you are not an HBOS employee?
56

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 18/10/2008 14:40:17
#70

Given that 40% of mergers are financial failures, and that is when both partners are without other serious problems, do you really think that taking 2 distressed companies and have management distracted by integration issues is the best way to go?

It sounds like the perfect recipe for disaster.
57

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 18/10/2008 15:11:15
Bottom line is that we do not have much "behind the scenes" information on this, but something dodgy went on, there is no doubt about that.

The result is that this government has created a superbank and that is precisely what all the regulations were set up to avoid.
58

K McDonald,

Glasgow 18/10/2008 15:29:23
"As an HBOS shareholder I have been forced to sell my shares, resulting in a serious loss. I had put aside money which was supposed to be something for when I retire. I'm outraged with the way that the deal has been handled."

Ashar Aftab, 33, economics lecturer at Durham University, from Edinburgh>>>

Aftab is one of those investors who not only thinks share prices will always go up, he demands they go up. Does he forget that only 5 weeks ago (before he joined the panicked herd and dumped his stock) short sellers drove the HBOS price down to 88p. HBOS was toast. He now wants all of us taxpayers to make good on his losses.

I beggars belief that he is an economics lecturer - I wonder did he tutor "fully qualified economist" Salmond. I shudder to think of what calibre of graduate is this guy turning out into the business & banking world.

What short memories all these chancer shareholders have. As for the captains of business who throwing their tuppence worth in, well gentle men "money talks and BS walks".

59

Marga,

Fife 18/10/2008 16:40:37
KampungHighlander,

You seem to understand the ins and outs of this merger. Do you know what the terms of the European Union Competition Directorate were for exceptionally approving this merger? There were supposed to be 10 conditions, one of which is this preferred shares at 12% thing, which the government are now apparently trying to get around.

I read that clearance from Europe was given over a weekend to save the UK banking system (the merger breaks EU rules), that this speed was unheardof, and that Mandelson had pulled strings to get it through. Can't find anything on the EU Competition page or on the Internet - do you know any more? Shouldn't we be told, as they say?
60

Gdgy,

dudny 18/10/2008 16:48:29
I thought the shareholders had to OK any merger anyway?

People have convienently forgotten that the proposed merger with TSB saved the HBOS from bankrupcy...without the support of the gov for the idea of the merger there would be no HBOS to save......no
61

Spectatorsport,

England 18/10/2008 16:51:42
Re: 74. Lloyds TSB is not a distressed company, and has no toxic assets, but sees an opportunity to raise capital and improve its position cheaply, while rescuing HBOS from its difficulties and exploiting the synergies of the combined group. If HBOS was an example of good and careful banking, I'm a Scotsman! I put my savings with HBOS believing them safe, and Andy Hornby put them at risk. Why keep a failed business model independent? To pretend that Scotland could have survived global meltdown without the UK umbrella? Independence is for brave hearts and incautious minds. I don't say you shouldn't have it, that's your business not mine. But it will be fun to watch!
62

Ugly George,

18/10/2008 17:15:12
69 brian Hill
"Glenrothes will be the torpedo of public opinion which finally sinks the destroyer"

So let me get the logic of your argument right. The people of Glenrothes are going to vote against the govt as a protest at them spending £30bn to save their banks. They will, therefore, be sending a clear message of "we don't want the £30bn - let our banks go bust."

Please try and look at this whole issue with some degree of objectivity and rationality. I appreciate that this is an extremely difficult task for a hopelessly blinkered nationalist such as yourself but you can at least try.
63

Ugly George,

edinburgh 18/10/2008 17:22:16
72 KampungHighlander
"To presume that when we leave that everything will be divided based on population is a bit silly."

You obviously are unaware of the Treaty of Vienna which sets out how things should be split up in the case of the secession of a state. Go and study it. How else are assets/liabilities to be split up - 50:50? if so would an independent Scotland accept 50% of UK national debt.
64

Ugly George,

18/10/2008 17:26:46
74 KampungHighlander
"Given that 40% of mergers are financial failures"

Given that 80/90% of companies and businesses that start up are financial failures that is not a bad staistic. It would indicate that there are benefits in a merger.
65

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 17:49:26
#84 George
Do you mean succession? The one that refers to decolonization, not one of the treaties of Vienna, but a convention?
66

shivago8,

livingston 18/10/2008 17:52:47
I am amazed at some of the laughable posts regarding HBOS.

THE GOVT SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO AGGRESSIVELY RIDE SLPISHOD OVER ONE OF OUR GREATEST ASSETS,

What happened to democracy.

This is a Hitler dictator decision
67

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 17:54:58
85 Ugly George
Are you Goerge Foulkes then?
68

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 19:05:51
86 Wee Fifer
No. The word is secession. Look it up in a dictionary. It has nothing to do with decolonisation.
69

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 19:06:14
88 Wee fifer
No
70

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 19:08:22
shivago8
"This is a Hitler dictator decision"

Now we have finally reached the ultimate in absurdity. Forking out billions to save a bank is being equated to murdering 6 million jews.
71

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 19:12:11
89 Wee fifer
I stand corrected. It is a convention on the succession when a secession takes place.
72

Mr Lahey,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 19:28:05
'famous 15' I suggest you check your facts about this supposed army of small shareholders. They are not that substantial and their votes are more than likely irrelvant if history is any judge. The bank is controlled by the Investment fund managers and its own board, including Nick Hornby. Try looking up the shareholder base and calculating the control ratios
73

sonofhamish,

edinburgh 18/10/2008 19:37:07
A bank is a bank is a bank. This idea that they will 'worse' or different as part of Lloyds is non-sense. I have had accounts with most of the major banks here, and quite a few abroad and there is no difference. Lets face it high-street banking is not an area where there is much room for creativity!
74

WL,

livingston 18/10/2008 19:52:36
Of course it is the shareholders who have the last word; not the UKGBNI government.
There is no good reason why this take-over of HBOS by English Lloyds-TSB should take place.
75

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 19:53:33
69 brian Hill
'Please try and look at this whole issue with some degree of objectivity and rationality. I appreciate that this is an extremely difficult task for a hopelessly blinkered nationalist such as yourself but you can at least try.' Ugly George

Ugly George, or should I say Inspirationally unblinkered unionist, the HBOS LloydsTSB merger will indeed save money but the price of thousands of jobs in Scotland is far to0 high.

And if that wasn't bad enough, the loss of prestige to Edinburgh as a major European financial centre is totally unacceptable and that's why even the Scotsman is leading the nation in fighting this rabid, anti Scottish merger.

There is nothing in it for us UG and another reason why the torpedoing of Brown's Labour Party in Glenrothes on Nov 6th will be the final straw that makes Brown and Darling pull up their horses and turn their rag and bone cart around a full 180 degrees.
76

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 19:58:12
92: Thank you
96 - Brian Hill
There is alot at stake, as you rightly point out.
77

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 18/10/2008 20:01:47
96 brian hill
"There is nothing in it for us"

Really - £billions to save a bank is nothing is it?

"Nov 6th will be the final straw that makes Brown and Darling pull up their horses and turn their rag and bone cart around a full 180 degrees"

So, by your own admission, you don't want the bail out of the banks and you want to see them go bust.
78

Stirling Sentinel,

Stirling 18/10/2008 22:04:36
Firm and steady control of the Scottish Banking system guided by English expertise. That's good enough for me.

Good night all.

NB I expect we will be woken by Charles Thinskull or whatever his name is in the early morning. He is always first to post
79

Bobgradionicar,

Germany 19/10/2008 23:04:30
I, a small shareholder in HBoS, would vote against the takeover by L/TSB. even if TSB was origonally Scottish. I have not understood 90% of the comments and am now more confused as to what I should do or not. If anybody could explain in laymens terms which is the better option for my vote I may reconsider. That is to say if I get one!
Regards Robbie

 

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