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The fuel panic begins

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Published Date: 21 April 2008
MOTORISTS laid siege to Scotland's forecourts yesterday, stockpiling against a feared fuel shortage as the country's only oil refinery continued a phased shutdown in the face of strike action.
With ministers warning against panic, a snapshot survey of garages by The Scotsman found 5am queues at the pumps, sales increases of up to 50 per cent and prices already on the rise. At least one petrol station ran out of fuel completely.

The chao
s came as pension negotiations between unions and management at the Grangemouth refinery appeared to break down completely. The owner, Ineos, claimed Unite officials had refused to engage in talks – but the union insisted it was happy to do so at any time.

Alex Salmond, the First Minister, urged both parties to get round the table, and the UK and Scottish governments were working on contingency plans.

Westminster – which has the final responsibility for fuel supplies – has said it could be forced to import from overseas to offset the shortages caused by the shutdown, and one expert warned diesel prices could shoot up.

The Scotsman's Pricewatch survey of petrol stations found the average price of unleaded petrol yesterday was 106.6 and the average price of diesel 118.7p. It also found almost half the outlets had increased prices since the strike was announced.

As the deadlock intensified, motorists rushed to the pumps – despite the calls for calm.

Lisa MacMillan, of Gifford, East Lothian, said she had queued at a Shell station near Musselburgh for more than 20 minutes yesterday afternoon.

"I went because a friend had rung to say there was going to be a shortage and I certainly didn't want to run out," she said. "There was a long queue of cars, and the woman in front of me filled her car up and then five red plastic petrol cans as well. A man joked that she might have a couple of lawnmowers which needed to be filled up.

"But although people were joking about it, you could see everyone being rather disapproving as well, because it's stupid buying like that which leads to shortages."

Staff also noticed the panic. Mary Fraser, an attendant at the South Inch Filling Station in Perth, said business had been brisk, with customers who usually only bought £10 to £20 of fuel filling right up.

One garage worker on the south side of Glasgow said there had been queues from about 5am yesterday, while the Asda forecourt in Grangemouth – in the shadow of the refinery – ran out of fuel altogether.

Andrew Taylor, a supervisor at the Shell petrol station in Kerse Road, Stirling, said it had sold about 50 per cent more fuel that would have been usual for a typical Sunday.

He said: "A lot of the people coming in have been mentioning the strike at Grangemouth, and I think the fuel blockades of a few years back are probably still in people's minds."

Operations at the refinery, which serves Scotland, Northern Ireland and the north of England, have been winding down since Saturday, ahead of the planned walkout by up to 1,200 workers next Sunday and Monday.

Ineos said it was too dangerous to continue work and the firm was now cooling and decontaminating the site, claiming it would take a month to get it operating at full capacity again.

Its managers said they expected garages to run out of petrol and diesel, and the last point at which they could restart production without disruption to the public would be today or tomorrow.

However, Nick McGregor, an oil and gas analyst with Redmayne Bentley, said he believed consumers would not be greatly affected: "I think that, as long as people don't change their buying patterns, then the system should just about cope.

"There are reserves that will easily cover the timeframe of it being wound down and getting back up to full production."

He said that European Union member states were required to hold reserves to cover 67½ days without production, and the issue would be getting this from its disparate holding places to where it was needed.

He said the UK refined more petrol than it needed and exported the leftovers. However, it was not so adept at diesel and jet-fuel production, and it was these markets the Grangemouth shutdown might affect.

"Any going into reserves is likely to worry the markets and push prices for those products up," he added.

Mr McGregor said it was a particular concern because recent energy policy had encouraged reliance on diesel. "It will probably be OK," he said. "It's more if it develops into anything more sustained and the argument becomes more protracted. It's a fairly tight market and, while it's not a problem for two days, any more could start to cause genuine issues."

Stuart McKinnon, of the Federation of Small Businesses Scotland, said the potential disruption was "dreadful news" and he urged the Scottish Government, or Westminster, to step in as soon as possible. He said: "The general population in Scotland has a reliance on small businesses, and if they can't access the fuel they need, then it's obviously going to be disastrous."

Previous fuel shortages caused by road hauliers' blockades had had a major impact on the federation's members, he added.

A spokeswoman for Oil & Gas UK said the industry was waiting to establish how the strike would affect the BP pipeline that brings in oil from the North Sea. She added that they hoped the union and refinery management would resolve the situation as soon as possible.

But last night, Tom Crotty, Ineos's chief executive, said he was "extremely disappointed" at what he claimed was Unite's rejection of an invitation by the conciliation service Acas to enter into talks.

He said: "The union's planned strike could have significant consequences for Scotland and the north of England and we would urge them to work with us to find a way of resolving this issue."

He has written to all 1,350 Grangemouth employees asking them directly to accept a new set of revised pension proposals.

However, Phil McNulty, of Unite, said it had "not even been asked" to get round the table with Acas, but was "happy to talk at any time".

He added: "If the company withdraws its threat to pensions, we'll call off the strike."

The company wants to get rid of its final salary pension scheme for new employees, while retaining it for current staff, and make further changes to pensions.

Speaking at the SNP conference in Edinburgh, Mr Salmond called on both sides to get round the table "and stay there" until they resolved their differences. He said their actions were "threatening the disruption of fuel supplies".

A spokesman for the Scottish Government said it had initiated contingency measures last Thursday and that ministers had been liaising with their UK counterparts.

The Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform at Westminster has compiled the National Emergency Plan for Fuel, which is followed in times of shortages. The options in it include demand-calming measures and priority-use schemes.

A spokeswoman said she expected there to be no disruption to the supply across Scotland, including rural areas. She added that fuel could be imported from overseas if necessary.

Refinery shut-down will span 'best part of a month'

STRIKE action has forced the closure of Grangemouth oil refinery for the first time in its 74-year history.

The painstaking process of closing down the complex facility in preparation for the threatened action began on Saturday.

Today, the first of the plant's crude oil tanks will be shut down – which refinery owner Ineos says will directly effect fuel production.

A spokesman for the firm said last night: "I couldn't put a figure on it, but as of tomorrow, it won't be at full capacity. It will be down significantly and we will gradually bring everything off-line by Friday."

He said the shutdown, which will involve cooling and decontaminating the plant, would be a round-the-clock operation.

"I am told that as of tomorrow, as we start to impact fuel production, it is not irreversible, but we will suffer capacity issues.

"A Thursday resolution will not result in a Saturday switch back. It will take a lot longer."

The refinery takes ten days to shut down from start to finish, and several weeks to get up and running again, meaning the whole process would take "the best part of a month".

The plant serves Scotland, Northern Ireland and the north of England and began operations in 1924.

A massive expansion programme was completed in the early 1970s, which brought the refining capacity up to 8.6 million tonnes per year.

It now produces 200,000 barrels a day and is the sixth-largest refinery in Britain.

Tom Crotty, chief executive of Ineos, said: "This is a huge oil refinery and (Unite] know you can't just turn it on and off like a tap.

"A month is our best guess but safety considerations will be at the forefront of everything we do.

"They have deliberately chosen a course of action that is the minimum pain for them but which will inflict the maximum pain on Scotland and the UK."





The full article contains 1541 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

,

21/04/2008 00:06:40
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2

Fifi la Bonbon,

21/04/2008 00:21:53
Aaaaaaaargh!!!!

Aaaaaaaargh!!!!

Aaaaaaaargh!!!!

Right. That's better. If there is more than nine weeks' supply in reserve, there shouldn't be a problem.

So why are the petrol station owners bumping the prices up? They should be keeping a low profile given the fact that so many are allowing Tamil Tiger and Alqaeda terrorists to steal money from customers through chip and pin machines.

Crooks, the lot of them.
3

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 00:39:55
We have been through this scenario before, I am quite sure we will survive again,

But at the, ..'End Off Day' the Government will win,

WONT THEY,?

Why else are we paying over £5.00 per Gallon at the pumps,?

TRUE STORY FROM TODAY WHEN SHOPPING WITH DYW @Sainsburys,

Two young chaps at the soft-drinks isle;

One picks up two 2litre of coke bottles, and says to his mate,

"Look this is all I get for £5.00 at the pumps"!

"Look, Look!, this is all I get"!

I turned round and, 'broke into the conversation and said,

"..'AYE', You will be lucky if you even get that soon"

:-)))
4

,

21/04/2008 01:08:48
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5

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 01:58:10
The Geniune Mario Antionette @#4,

Well they enjoyed the interruption and agreed with me, its all to do with being a, 'Peoples Person'

Try it! you may, ..'Lighten-Up' a little!..:-)
6

Julian.,

edinburgh 21/04/2008 02:38:13
Charles,

That's news to me. Always thought BP were a private company.

On the point of the dispute, the employer sounds like they're being reasonable. They're only closing the pension scheme to new employees. But then again I don't know much about it.

As for the general public, can't be trusted not to panic. They should put a £20 limit on filling up at the pumps in these situations.
7

The Stoat,

offshore 21/04/2008 03:16:12
#6Julian.
BP no longer own the site.It is a private investor called Ineos backed by a Billionaire.
Its true the final salary scheme is being shut down.But that is not the real story.The journalists have failed yet again to get to the heart of the story ,either deliberately or otherwise.
The workers current pension fund is being raided by this billionaire who wants to use it fund further investments.This was the money put into the fund By BP to ease the transition during the transfer.This money belongs to the workers...IT IS THEIR PENSION FUND.
Does this not echo a certain Robert Maxwell's shennanigans.
So back the guys to the hilt.Imagine someone come in and taking money out of your savings...
8

Haggis MacBagpipes,

Central Canada - ex Perth & Glesca' 21/04/2008 07:03:38
#8 - Rules, etc.,

Dae ye wake up every mornin' wi that huge chip on yer shoulder, that everything bad that happens in Scotland has tae be Alex Salmond's fault?

Ye've got as much personality as my last f*rt!

Lighten up for once, ye remind me o' ma mither-in-law, she couldna see ony guid in onybody. That's a terrible attitude tae go through life wi'
Cheers,
Haggis MacBagpipes™©
9

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta; . CA.....a place in the Sun 21/04/2008 07:15:01
The Spook in Leith ,
21/04/2008 00:06:40

Filled my tank in about four minutes this afternoon.
--------------------------------------

Dude do U drive a motor bike .
Four minutes to fill up !!!!!

Noway I could fill my tank in 4 minutes .
It holds 28 US gallons.(22 UK gals) approx.

Costs me $100 to fill up.
@ $3.60/gal.

Don't forget to ask ur leader Salmond, what is he going to do about to stop the chaos over Ur gas (petrol) shortage .

More of his rabble rousing I bet.
Making Westminster dance a Scottish Jig any going to fly, with the majority of motorists dude.
They need gas not jigs . dude.

GC

10

steve 1511,

aberdeen 21/04/2008 07:21:27
i am sure the broon whos government in london is responsible for maintaining fuel supplies will fail scotland again
11

,

21/04/2008 07:31:18
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12

McX,

21/04/2008 07:34:14
Drove in and out to town yesterday between 7pm and 10pm, passing three petrol stations on the way. Not one forecourt embodied the spirit of the blitz.

Odd how the knee jerk panic reactions of the media try and 'fuel' (no pun intended) these crises.

Nothern Rock...
13

Iain fae Elgin,

21/04/2008 07:37:05
"However, Nick McGregor, an oil and gas analyst with Redmayne Bentley, said he believed consumers would not be greatly affected: "I think that, as long as people don't change their buying patterns, then the system should just about cope."


oooops....
14

St Andrew,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 07:49:40
What are the odds of any price rises staying even after the strike?!?!
This will be another opportunity for profiteering at the expense of the motorist.

I would also like to know why in mainland Europe the price of diesel is less than unleaded but here it is the opposite????
15

donald,

glasgow 21/04/2008 07:51:20
There is nothing more certain to cause panic than a Labour Government saying, "Don't panic, while we support the pension thefts and wage robberies of the fat cats".
16

TommyAtkins,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 08:07:41
#7 Although you would think that funds paid into pensions belonged to the members; I regret to inform you that due to a dreadful decision of the House of Lords in the 1980s that is not necessarily so. When in surplus, the surplus belongs to the company. Hence companies have creamed off "the excess" as profit in the good years, but of course show little enthusiasm for stumping extra in the bad years.
Of course no such worries in the public sector [bloated & index linked] where [almost] all pensions are in deficit, and your taxes will make up the shortfall.
17

hibbyspurs,

21/04/2008 08:08:09
what an absoloute farce (again)....

The media in this country wanted a story to have all over the papers/ tv, etc. this week so they've jumped on this strike action yesterday in an attempt to whip the public at large into a panic so they can get their shots of queing cars, sings saying "NO FUEL" and so on...

And guess what.... The public at large fall for it.. And I'll tell you another thing, those that have fallen for it by and largw will be those that dont even need their cars through the week apart from runnig to the shops/ school run... Like the lazy idiots they are.

I drive in excess of 50,000 miles a year, use my car every day for work (today I will only drive around 100 miles which is low), got up yesterday, seen the news, yawned, stretched, thought to myself "how much fuel's in my car?" (about a 1/4 tank), ohhhh well I'll fill it up at some point tommorrow then because there will still be plenty fuel around (just like there was during the blockades, I got diesel whenever I needed it).

Its idiots who have no comprehension of what it actually is like to drive 000's of miles each week, month, year that cause these panics by filling their "sunday driver" mobile to its gunnells (& fill 5 litre jerry cans while their at it because they're totally insane) so that they can leaving it lying on the driveway for another week...

Well done the Scottish public for being a complete bunch of fools and being sucked in once again.

As someone said Northern Rock........
18

care4,

Here 21/04/2008 08:17:45
#7 The Stoat, writes "This was the money put into the fund By BP to ease the transition during the transfer.This money belongs to the workers...IT IS THEIR PENSION FUND".

If this is true then the money was put in by the OWNERS OF THE COMPANY at the time. Private pension schemes such as the one outlined do not belong to either party, both contribute to it. Perhaps a clue to this is in its title ""THE COMPANY'S" FINAL SALARY SCHEME"

I confess that I do not know the ins and outs of the whole story but surely there is now, in law, a means of protecting the assests of the workforce and their contributed pension rights.
19

Helmut Smegma,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 08:18:08
One panic story and it`s as if the country`s almost on its knees.
20

Boy Wonder,

21/04/2008 08:19:41
The answer is to get an electric car. Then when you're driving past the pumps and oil refinery ... stick two fingers up at them all.
21

mrsbruce,

Livingston 21/04/2008 08:23:28
hibbyspurs, your right.

I stuck £30 in my car late Saturday, because Sunday is usually quite busy at the garages, and I'm going up to Dundee today.

When I asked the chap behind the counter if he'd had any 'panic buying' yet, he told me that few people can afford to do that nowadays.

We did stand and watch a woman fill her tank up to the brim. Apparently she normally comes in once a week and buys £20's worth.

So, yes, I think you'll find that there will be lots of cars filled with fuel who won't have to go back to the garage for about 6 months now.

Oh, by the by, Grangemouth produces diesel and jet fuel. So why the panic about unleaded.

Also, please note, the SG has no powers regarding fuel (thank you, Westminster).
22

Thistledhu,

21/04/2008 08:32:30
either the union or the company are lieing.
can they not stump up some proof of who is doing what?

But incedentley this company has 27 refinerys.

only one has objected to there pensions policy

they have good relations with there workforce in all but one refinery.

yes that is grangemouth.

If your curiouse as to the result of militent union action ask a miner how he got through the 80's and 90's
23

gus1940,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 08:36:43
Good old Scotsman - decending to tabloid press level with a scare story that is liable to encourage panic buying.
24

,

21/04/2008 08:39:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
25

hibbyspurs,

21/04/2008 08:48:15
#25

Cant agree more, I drove into my office this morning leaving before 7,drove past he local garage on the way and seen that it was busy (although it is quite a busy garage anyway) and thought, "i'll just get fuel later then" as I couldnt be bothered sitting in a que.. I'm only running over to Fife today so in theory the quarter tank I had at the start of today will most likely be sufficent until tomorrow morning anyway but I'll probably fill my tank up on the way home.

Why?....... Because I need to for work tomorrow...

Hey anyway, if fuel runs out & my car "red lines" thenI'll not be able to go to work anyway... Happy holidays thanks to the morons who have panic bought.... Cheers!!!!
26

hibbyspurs,

21/04/2008 08:50:23
#28

Quite passionate then........
27

Duncan in Edinburgh,

21/04/2008 08:51:45
#28 Thank you for contacting Brainless Morons Anonymous. We at BMA know how difficult it is to make that first step and acknowledge that you have a problem, so I wanted to pass on our sincere thanks and congratulations. I won't pretend there isn't a long road ahead for you, but through education, perseverance and hard work, there really is a way out of ignorance, and we're here to help you find it.

Having read your entry rant, I have enclosed a series of pamphlets from our basic range that I think would be a suitable starting point for your journey from ignorance into some semblance of basic comprehension of the world around you. Please find enclosed "Prime Ministers don't actually rule the world, and other political truths", "99% of the time, 'A bad man did it' is NOT the reason", and "Why calling for elected politicians to be killed over issues largely outwith their control is gormless and futile".

Please do let me know how you get on with these. If they turn out to be a little beyond you just now, we also have a children's range that we can try you on.

In the words of our motto, together, we can help you become Slightly Less Stupid Every Day.

Kind regards, etc.
28

Norman,

21/04/2008 08:51:51
Good to see the usual suspects up to their old tricks: the garages put their prices up to profit from the situation, and the public panic like frightened sheep. And of course the Hootsmon doing its "reporting the news" and making the situation worse.

Well done, everyone.
29

Ctinj,

Alloa 21/04/2008 09:01:47
Its not just the motorist that is going to be affected by this. Business's use petrol, diesel and gas oil (red diesel to you and I) for their business. Due to the hysteria being wipped up by the media, this could have a real impact on the supply of fuel.

This maybe the straw that broke the camel's back for a lot of business's struggling to make ends meet due to the high cost of fuel at the moment. A number of theses business's will not survive this if fuel shortages do occur.

The Unions know in this instance the balance of power is weighed in their favour and will exploit it to no end. The Unions do not care how their actions will impact on the livelihood of others or other Unions (as they think they have the backing on them) so once again we will see business's and industry's suffer due to the militant actions and greed of the Unions (and yes I am a Union fee paying member).
30

Ctinj,

Alloa 21/04/2008 09:05:28
And if these business's or industry's suffer then this could lead to redundacies etc of people like you and me, who have nothing to do with Grangemouth or its Union. It not the Grangemouth employees who will suffer - its you and I.
31

voltaire's janny,

21/04/2008 09:07:22
As a matter of fact the pension fund is owned by the retirees and managed on their behalf by the trustees. The incumbent workers have no gurantees except, maybe, their payments back. If the firm folds entirely they could get nowt.

Most such schemes benefit from a big co-payment from the employer and the final salary guarantee represents a big risk to them that has to be taken into account by the business.

Closure of FS pension schemes has the effect of putting the risk (that the funds will be available for pension and increments) back on the individual.

While this is definitely a reduction in benefit to new workers it does not affect incumbents at all. If the alleged billionaire fund raider is allowed to do so it could only happen by criminal act of the trustees, since he doesnae have the PIN.

I agree this is a 'panic' only because of the fourth estate whipping up a good headline. I did change my behaviour accordingly, but mainly to buy yesterday at a cheaper station than wait for the yellow light and buy local.
32

Blindscout,

dunfermline 21/04/2008 09:11:47
what about the peaple that work for the emergency services ,
will we get special treatment for getting to work
33

carrottop,

Dumfries 21/04/2008 09:37:13
`Its managers (Grangemouth) said they expected garages to run out of petrol and diesel,`

They would say that to get the public on side, how about the truth from an independent and reliable source, take your chance Scotsman.

There are ten refinery facilities in UK and only one is closing.
34

John H C,

edinburgh 21/04/2008 09:40:38
31 Thank you for your contribution. I have reported 28 as unsuitable but your way of handling it is probably better. I wish contributers would make some effort at correcting their spelling. I wonder at the mentality of some of the Scotsman readers who post comments.
35

eDUCATIon,

21/04/2008 09:59:09
38

I think 28 has some very valid points.....you might like getting shafted at the pumps every time you fill up but i dont. Stick your head back into the sand while Broon shoves another length up you! Go on, you know you love it.
36

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 21/04/2008 10:01:10
I'm not a socialist or even left wing but I would suggest that the plant at Grangemouth should be nationalised. After all the Health Service, the Army, the Police, the Education system are all in public ownership. It is such a crucial piece of infrastructure that its disruption brings the country to a halt and threatens the entire economy.
If a run on a bank could bring the nationalisation of Northern Rock, then a run at the filling stations should prompt a similar response. No one would have noticed if Northern Rock had gone to the wall. Now the Bank of England is pumping billions into the banking system to keep cash flowing. Fuel is just as vital.
Apparentlt INEOS is controlled by a single billionaire. There are no shareholders who can call him to account.
The dispute relates to pensions. If the Grangemouth employees were in the public sector the existing employees could receive the gold-plated pensions public empolyees receive, theose already retired could receive under the existing scheme.
Until then I cannot believe that a two day strike results in a one month shut down. A twenty four day strike spread through the year would close the plant permanently. I cannot believe that would happen.
I think both sides are to blame in this. A solution has to be found before the economy is decimated. The Scottish Government can plead for talks to continue but Energy is a reserved matter and it is for the UK Government to intervene. This is the SNP's first real test even though it is not within their remit. We shall watch with interest how they handle the matter.
37

d swabey,

cumbernauld 21/04/2008 10:11:07
The media have a lot to answer for and are causing the panic at the pumps it is time people stopped to think.Then maybe NO PANIC>
38

Andrah,

Embrugh 21/04/2008 10:12:14
38# As the Scotsman dumbs down, it will inevitably attract less eloquent posters such as 28#. Indeed it seems the media yet again has succeeded in one of its primary commercial goals, namely scaring the wits out of us.
The saddest aspect in this situation is that if it begins to impact, it could serve to seriously damage Scotland's reputation for inward investment. Celtic Tiger indeed!! We will appear to have learned nothing from the backward thinking that helped drive the motor industry out of Scotland in previous decades. Of course we could nationalise everything as 40 suggests. Then we would become a true third world backwater.
39

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 21/04/2008 10:24:40
I never called to nationalise everything. All I said was that something so crucial to the infrastructure of the country and its economy should not be the pawn of an industrial dispute, especially as it seems to be virtually a monopoly supplier which can be subject to panic buying. The same cannot be said of even electricity or water.
40

BBH,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 10:29:12
#6 Rather than a putting a £20 limit on the amount of fuel you can buy (which wouldn't stop the likes of the woman I saw buying 69p worth of fuel to fill her tank during the last fuel "crisis"), it would be better to insist on a £30 MINIMUM amount of fuel purchased. That might help to reduce the impact of panic buying.

#41 I totally agree.
41

Shaken,

21/04/2008 10:31:04
I think most agree the Iraq war was about oil.

I'm of the opinion that as we were instrumental in creating a war we should really have had a game plan - i.e. to make oil cheaper or mor available. Seems we went to war for nothing. At least the Amercians get cheap gas dude.
42

Shaken,

21/04/2008 10:31:49
#44

Yes very good what if you have £20 a week to spend on fuel?
43

A Voice From Scotland,

21/04/2008 10:43:53
Why was this refinery sold by BP when it can make profits of £3 to £5 million per day?

Why did the press whip this story up so creating some panic buying?

My theory is that one way to destabilise a nation is to disrupt it's economy by causing strife such as this, the CIA are masters at the black arts.

This is only the beginning of the attempts at creating fear and tension in Scotland because of the success of the SNP. We can expect another major terrorist strike and other industrial unrest as long as the SNP continue to be popular and getting close to independence.

There are pipelines between Grangemouth and Rocksavage refinery in North Wales, so any capacity will be pumped there to keep the country going but there will still be 'manufactured' shortages in Scotland.

44

Fairfax,

21/04/2008 11:25:25
Huntly Loon (43): "All I said was that something so crucial to the infrastructure of the country and its economy should not be the pawn of an industrial dispute"

We still had vast numbers of disputes when more of our economy was nationalised. As for being pawns of industrial disputes, surely you're aware of the fall of Heath's government following the Three Day Week in the early 1970s? Nationalisation does not protect us from industrial disputes.
45

Fairfax,

21/04/2008 11:27:37
A Voice from Scotland (47): "We can expect another major terrorist strike and other industrial unrest as long as the SNP continue to be popular and getting close to independence."

This particular dispute also affects some 8 million people in Northern England, as well as 5 million Scots. What possible advantage would it be to Labour to inconvenience some of its core voters in Northern England?
46

C,

Glasgow 21/04/2008 11:45:42
Current employees enjoy a non-contributory final salary pension scheme that will give them Y years of service x 1/60 of their salary as their pension. New entrants, like every other viable business/department in the UK will not access this "gold-standard" scheme and workers will be asked to pay 6% of their salary now to provide for their pensions. Nothing unusual there and it has taken this company some years to put into practice what other private companies and government departments did several years ago.
Unite, went to ACAS to help fight their case, found it was not a one-way street and decided to "negotiate" only after their employers completely withdrew the new pension plan! I have absolutely no support for these greedy, well paid employees striving for a throwback to the '70's strike tactics to gain something that will be unfundable and ultimatley collapse.
Because of the nature of the continuous production process, there is no on-off switch and with no need for an emergency shut-down, the company is winding down the plant to cause least damage and difficulty in restarting the process, and could conceivably take three weeks to go from production to care and maintenance back to production properly.
Equally, there has been nonsense spoken about profiteering by petrol stations. As someone from the oil business I know that independents make more from the sandwich you buy than the 10 gallons you have just pumped into your car.
Workers, get real.
47

Zedd,

Fife 21/04/2008 12:04:19
I totally agree with #47 and a few like minded comments above.
This is a glimpse of a grim future where oil will be in short supply for real. Between our own greedy human nature and exploitation by business - life will be unpleasant. Its time we did some serious long term planning to avoid this seedy outcome.
48

Tired runner,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 12:27:24
I don't think the Scotsman's front page tody was very wise - neither photograph nor headline - unless they have vested interest in the oil companies.
The Shell garage I pass everyday opposite St John's hospital looks like that most days at 5pm, so does the one at Sainsbury's in Blackhall on most Saturday mornings. A queue doesn't mean a panic.
Get a grip.

49

Ricey,

Graz Austria 21/04/2008 12:29:17
Second Class UK again. Fuel taxed to death and they cannae even speak to each other in an adult manner.
1.08€ p/l for diesel in Graz by the way.
50

WKKB,

21/04/2008 12:37:55
Like a run on the bank... if some people run in and takes what's there of course some others will be left out, but, if we just relax a few days and get what we need when we need it things should soon settle down. I lived through a 'gas shortage' in Los Angeles many years ago. People there were actually shooting people to get the last drop. One man died while waiting behind other motorists... what killed him... exhaust fumes from the truck in front of him. PLEASE for sanity's sake don't go balistic like those in Los Angeles. Remember we have public transport which can be used if a pinch.

Remember also that not all our petrol comes from our own refineries. If that were the case why would we have to worry about the oil prices in the middle east going up which we're constantly told is what drives our prices up.
51

5-string,

Ellicott City Maryland USA 21/04/2008 12:46:06
Yikes. First it`s Heathrow`s Terminal 5 boondoggle and now, assuming we manage to make it to Scotland along with our luggage, should I bring along some sort of harness with which to pull the hire car? Bealach na Ba could be a real challenge this trip....
What`s an old geezer headed your way to play some music to do?


52

Maurice,

Fife 21/04/2008 13:05:18
See! The 1st world isnt that much better than the 3rd.
53

Zedd,

Fife 21/04/2008 13:07:05
#57 Kirkcaldy Sainsbury's had run out this morning. Probably more the fault of stockpiling morons than Sainsbury - but run out nonetheless!
54

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 21/04/2008 13:18:54
My hunch is the bulk of motor fuel is sold through supermarket forecourts these days. I think Tesco, Asda etc will bring in supplies from further south if need be. I doubt if there will be shortages. Once the initial tank fill ups are done things will return to normal.
Perhaps if that is the case then INEOS and the Unite union will discover they have rather little leverage after all and will start to negotiate sensibly from positions of mutual weakness.
It does not take away the fact that the supply of fuel has strategic importance whether its disruption might be caused by accident, terrorist outrage or industrial dispute. Here, it is not a case of having all your eggs in one basket, it is having one single rather precious egg in your basket. I would hope that the Governments (Scottish and British) have well laid plans which can kick in in an emergency of shortages.
55

Artemis,

Embra 21/04/2008 13:28:57
You know all those cyclists you were all slagging off last week?

They won't be queuing up for petrol.
56

,

21/04/2008 13:31:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
57

,

21/04/2008 13:31:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
58

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 21/04/2008 13:37:11
It's not enough for Swinney to simply say that this is an industrial dispute which has to be solved by the warring parties. Scotland needs leadership or it will come to a standstill.
59

Memyself&I,

21/04/2008 13:43:45
#44 not your best idea. What if you can't fit £30's worth into the tank?
60

Roscoe P Coltrane,

21/04/2008 13:50:39
#39

If you'd had a decent level of eDUCATIon you'd know there's no such thing as a "very valid" point. Validity is binary, something is either valid or it is not.

In terms of the arcticle itself, typical of the Scotsman these days in it's slow but inevitable decline from decent, broad-thinking actual newspaper into gutter tabloid more interested in circulation figures generated through whipping up a frenzy than the consequences of their 'stories'.

Unfortunately it's still better than the sources of 'news' that most of Scotland relies on.
61

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 21/04/2008 13:54:13
64

Robert, I couldn't agree more. Scotland deserves better.
62

gmac,

Kilmacolm 21/04/2008 13:55:32
No 7,
You seem to forget that it was Gordon Brown's first budget when he destroyed the British pension fund industry by stealing some 5 to 6 billion pounds per year out of the industry to fund his so called investment in the NHS. This is, as usual, the result of Mr Brown and the Labour party activities.
They create the problem then they hide and let the unions and the business argue out a solution.
It is well past time for this bedraggled government to be sent packing
63

Memyself&I,

21/04/2008 13:56:26
Usual stupidity from these workers who as usual fail to see whats right on front of them. Looks like another union rep wanting to make a name for themselves,..yawn.

If there is a surplus the company in entitled to ue that money. Perhaps we could educate these workers as to what "final salary" means. Its not as if the workers would get any more or less. Still, as markets have bottomed out the company would be well advised to keep the money in the fund for now, wait 12 months and take an extra 25%.

Anyway, panic buy folks! Is it worth risking running out of fuel? I think not. Is it really panic buying? I know I won't have worked up a sweat while driving to the pumps. Its called being cautious. I'll still fill up and a rarely go through a tank a month.
64

Mcsnagpile,

21/04/2008 14:01:53
When you control the supply of information it is amazing what you can do with battery chickens.
When you control the supply of education you can turn it into feed for battery chickens.

The end product is never to the chickens advantage, although he maybe quite happy.

If Ineos has any sense they will use the shutdown to do some Maintenance and repair. A great deal of work remains outstanding in wait of planned outages.

BP possibly sold out as part of a long-term strategy. Ineos only came into existence in 1999. New entrants to the site may find they will not have a 25 years career as North Sea production is already in the decline. When the UK starts to import from abroad in future, it may be more economical to import the refined product instead of crude. Countries like KSA are already going into refining in a big way and could possibly refine it cheaper than us
65

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 14:20:41
BP probably decided to get out of refining because the feedstock is soon going to run out. With oil at $115 a barrel it can't be long now.

BP = Beyond Petroleum.
66

long live the supermarkets,

Every little hurts 21/04/2008 14:59:11
Just queued up with the sheep only had 10 miles left in the tank had to go to the supermarket as there is no other station left to go to. I seen one guy filling two big containers on back of this massive tank he was driving. I think what happens when you see the sheep queueing you want to join them because you think all the petrol will be gone.
67

westview,

on yer bike 21/04/2008 15:04:49
Do not expect the Unions to protect your pension as long as their master is not the "workers" but the Labour party. Just look at how they let Brown away with plundering £billions out of ordinary folks pension funds. How can you fight back? Vote for NO political fund in your union. Stop your own personal donation to political parties being taken from your wages by asking for and submitting the "opt out" form from your union. When your leaders are free from political chains they can concentrate on looking after the workers . This way the public will know that any dispute is genuine and not politically arranged.
68

Filosofo,

Kirkcaldy 21/04/2008 15:32:57
Gosh
69

Brian Ferrari,

21/04/2008 15:52:11
Remember folks, that diesel engines will run on vegetable oil.
70

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/04/2008 16:47:43
And the beauty of it is that it's all happening on Broon's watch. The man will implode very shortly.
71

Wayne,

Calabash 21/04/2008 17:39:19
Well we can all expect to pay @ the pumps as long as our "FRIENDS"in Saudia Arabia and the idiot in Venezuela control the greater part of the oil out put.If it weren't for the sorry liberals in this country the US and Great Britian could help each other out with the oil shortage.As for the workers @ the refinery,fire the lot of them for not sticking with their countryman,or better yet,get rid of the unions.They are nothing but outdated dinosaurs any way!
72

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 18:20:03
64. Scotland has been without leaders - or anyone capable of being a leader since that 'thing' was built down at holyrood so our little cooncilers could feel important.

Labour have screwed everyone and they either too dumb or too crooked to know it yet - but most of us are smart enough to spot it coming ...

I would bet my bottom dollar this union is a corrupt labour beastie trying to cause massive upheaval in Scotland to try and float Labour election hopes again.

Democracy ?

73

wlong,

Pleasanton 21/04/2008 18:30:25
Boys and Girls there is something everyone should think about. Oil is a commodity like any thing else it can be sold anywhere, normally to the highest bidder. When Labor and taxes raises the cost above the world norm then it's time to move to a place where the norm is present. Scotland and England have lost a lot of it's manufacturing jobs due to Union demands. Unions seem to think they created and own the jobs and after awhile the real owner gets tired of them and moves away. My suggestion is that Ineos sell and ship the plant to China and make that move they were thinking about. New plant, new workers and new pay scheme. Best thing is to put your own money away for retirement, don't rely on others. Oil is now $117.40 and rising-rising-rising!
74

Pilrig.,

Livingston 21/04/2008 18:47:19
26 - a tory

77 - an employer
75

Pilrig.,

Livingston 21/04/2008 18:49:12
73 - 100% correct.
76

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 21/04/2008 19:02:36
Inverurie in the heart of Alex Salmond's consituency ran out of fuel in the afternoon. Asda at Dyce did not have fuel this evening but the BP station beside the old BP headquarters still had and though there was a steady stream of vehicles there were no queues. I got some petrol there becuse I was down on the red and filled up to half a tank - £20.
Aberdeen had its spring holiday today. Tomorrow will be test day when the huge number of commuters travel in for the first time after the weekend from all their outlying homes. Unless they've already filled up they won't make it in or won't make it home.
It would be ironic if BP's Aberdeen HQ did not function because their staff had no fuel to get into work after flogging off their only refinery in Scotland.
Lets hope that the President of the Society of Actuaries can crack some heads together and arrange a solution. The union should call off the strike meantime and the employers reverse their closing down procedures. The Scottish Government has offered their assistance to find a solution. But it is down to those involved to sort the problem.
77

Pattester,

Galashiels 21/04/2008 19:19:47
Why the hell is either the Scottish government of the UK one not stomping on the greedy Bast--ds of garage owners, and why are they not getting done for this exploitation, this is just greed on their part and they should be penalised for it. putting fuel up by 5p a litre is a disgrace.
78

Friar Tuck,

21/04/2008 20:31:04
#44 - BBH,Edinburgh:

I only have a 20 litre tank. Why should I pay more than everyone else because I have a small fuel efficient car? Last time I filled up, it only took 14 litres! (and my motorcycle only has a 10 litre tank.) Get your head screwed back on!
79

weh,

21/04/2008 20:35:53
This whole episode smacks of mr beans interference.

He will stop at NOTHING to undermine the legitimate govt of Scotland-even although that means his OWN PEOPLE will suffer!

Sic a parcel o rogues in a nation...
80

Greenheatman,

TAIN 21/04/2008 20:54:01
Fuel is of strategic importance to Scotland. The Scottish government should just nationalise the b**tards if they do not wise up by Friday
81

Itchy,

Lochgelly 21/04/2008 21:34:17
#87 which part of the soviet union is Tain in?

#80 2 ad hominems and no argument.
82

A Voice From Scotland,

21/04/2008 21:59:38
#50 Fairfax, do keep up. Maggie Broon and the unionist despots care no more for 8mil. people in the north of England than they do for 5mil. in Scotland.

The only thing that is important is the party and the union in that order.

As I said in my post, their is pipelines between Rock savage and Grangemouth so the capacity is very easily pumped to North Wales for processing.

Once more Fairfax you demonstrate your inferiority complex which is complemented by your naivety. We all know that Engerland is bigger than Scotland, (geographically,) and that you have more people there, the union does allow us to have maps and teach geography in North Briton.

This is allegedly a Scottish newspaper, the story is about a Scottish refinery, and my point is about destabilising the Scottish nation, feel free to take a British view, it is irrelevant.
83

indune1,

Canada 21/04/2008 22:04:48

Quite an advertsiement for investment in Scotland:
isn't it?
84

Pro Libertate,

Might as well be the Moon! 21/04/2008 22:10:08
OMG – ‘what we don’t know we’ll make up’ could be the motto on this forum.

Re the many comments about Ineos employees being portrayed on this forum as greedy Bastrds:- not the case, they are not asking for MORE, the just want to keep the same T&C’s they have had for years. I don’t see a lot of problem with that.
How many out there would be happy if they went to work and their company told them they were getting a 6% pay cut over three years and were being made work an extra 5 years for the privilege? (Let me see . . . . . . well that would be . . . NONE then???)

Cost for company to settle dispute:- £3 million per year.

Cost to company to shutdown for two days:- £40 million (minimum)

Cutting off their nose to spite their face - you make your mind up. (Could it be to crush the Union perhaps??)

By the way it is not just the Refinery that is shutting down, it is the whole site!

Is it the SNP’s fault???? (Get real!!) This issue is not devolved so it’s up to Broon the Loon to sort out.

Here endeth the lesson!
85

Dr Egg,

In the saddle 21/04/2008 22:44:59
I can walk to work but tomorrow I'll use the bus.
86

theleftwing,

bo'ness 21/04/2008 22:47:31
#26

ineos don't have the same problems at other sites because the other sites don't have a final salary pension scheme.
it's only the businesses they bought from bp ie, innovene that have the scheme.
innovene was made up of sites in france (they can't touch french pensions its in their constitution)
Germany (they don't know how to handle a dictator),
America (there is no such thing as a strong union in the US of A).
either that or all of ineos's other employees worldwide are happy to finance Mr Radcliffs retirement plan to the detrement of their own. I dont think so do you?
87

McX,

21/04/2008 23:06:35
...and it's over, according to Glen Campbell on Newsnicht. So no need to panic.
88

Haggis MacBagpipes,

Central Canada - ex Perth & Glasca' 22/04/2008 07:14:04
#16 - Rules, etc.

I am a born and bred Scotsman, now living in Canada, and as such I have no right to take sides and I don't.
I only passed my opinion about your attitude in hopes you'd play fair ball, but it is obvious that I was wasting my time trying to change your attitude about A.S. As for my two pennyworth I, personally, would like to see the S.N.P. win independence because it's no much fun being a bridesmaid and never a bride, if you can understand that? I feel that it is Scotland's chance to embrace victory and as A.S. is working for the Scottish people, unlike many others who had their chance to make a difference but didn't. Is that so wrong? Being a broon-noser (pardon the pun) won't get you any medals, but if you are happy in your ignorance, so be it.
Cheers,
Haggis MacBagpipes™©
89

FLUB,

a rocky outcrop in eastern central Scotland 22/04/2008 13:07:47
#83 - it's not really a Scottish Government responsibility, although if they've any sense they'll be keeping a "watching brief"

As far as the UK government is concerned, this 'dispute' is the type of corporate muscle flexing that indicates just how irrelevant governments are becoming/have become.

They've seized on the Brownian mishandling of the pensions in the UK as a 'trojan horse' and the Unions have gone for it in the erroneous belief that you can safeguard T&Cs for future employees.

Watch the forthcoming 'domino effect' bringing UK PLC to its knees.

As the song (almost) said, Stand Down Gordon, Stand Down Please, Stand Down Gordon.
90

the thinking man,

falkirk 22/04/2008 19:16:09
Totally agree with #44. Forecourt problems are caused solely by the top up idiots. Garages should set a minimum fuel spend each time of £30 so only those needing to buy fuel do so. The £5 and £10 top up clowns would disappear, thus freeing up forecourts.
91

Ineos employee,

23/04/2008 11:17:54
(POSTED THIS ON ANOTHER SECTION BUT THOUGHT IT WOULD BE RELAVENT HERE TOO)

**-POST 51**

Ok just want to clarify a few things from an employees perspective and try to convey a bit of truth as opposed to speculation to this forum.

the dispute is between a private company and the employees of ineos grangemouth.

Right so what is the pension norm in the industry? you would be correct in saying alot of oil companies are contributary, however in comparrison to ineos their salary is substantially more. In the past it has always been the companies bargaining point durung pay negotiations to offer us less by saying, "We still offer a non-contributary pension scheme." At the moment our overall package i.e - pay, pensions, bonus ect is competitive with the rest of the industry and to remove the non-contributary scheme would no longer make the companys remuneration package for employees competitive.
The reason no other oil companies are being affected is because no other company has the odasity to degrade something as sensitive as the pensions.
In terms or fuel shortages and 'chaos' in the country well that is only induced by panic buying and media speculation however I am confident the country will and has supplies to cope just fine with this situation.
As for the companys press realeases and statements from gordon grant and tom crotty - lies - we know this because their lips are moving! These people are like politions and I would not believe a word the say.

To conclude, the unuion are not fighting for a pay-rise or better penssions, no, they simply want to keep what they have. A simple analogy would be; if someone comes up to you in the street and asks for your wallet, do you negotiate for the contents or point blank refuse? This company is owned by a man with a personal fortune of 3.5 BILLION, the 10th richest man in the U.K and it appears he gets kicks from stealing pensions from the working class.
92

Ineos employee,

23/04/2008 11:35:37
CONTINUED......

class? Personally, at 21 years old and just finished my apprenticeship I am a long way from collecting my pension however if the company wins this dispute you can make no mistake about it that they will be back for more-cutting our terms and conditions bit by bit. Again us employees only want to keep what we have and remain competitive within the industry.

with regards to the jealousy of ost 51, your opinion has no bearing or effect of the stance of the people to take strike action nor will it have an effect on the outcome-no matter how widespread your opinion is. At the end of the day the gengeal public does not pay our wages, mortgages or support our families. Yes public support would be appreciated-but it is by no means needed.
93

Venachar,

23/04/2008 13:31:48
Ineos Employee

You are extremely lucky in your position with your pension provision. You and your union are being extremely economical with the truth on it's status.
Get real and get into the 21st Century, a lot of people do not have Company pensions and have to fund everything for themselves. Others contibute on a varying scale, this can work to the employees advantage depending on circumstance.
Your lot want something for nothing! You say you are wonderfull - well how many people have you killed this year? Grangemouth has had one of the worst safety records in the country.

Get real and leave 1970's trade unionism behind.
94

theleftwing,

bo'ness 23/04/2008 23:56:55
a thought,

jim ratcliff- his wealth rose in 2007 by £2.2 billion(source the times rich list).
£6,027,397 per day or £251,141 per hour.

he tries to save £3,000,000 by getting grangemouth employees to pay 6% of their salary to the well funded pension scheme.
thats 12 hours of his salary.

did he earn all that cash all by himself?
a little help from other people perhaps?
his grangemouth employees maybe?
i think it was £400,000,000 at an estimate!

as i said just a thought.

 

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