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Rape: new ways for a woman to say no

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Published Date: 19 December 2007
THE largest proposed reform of sexual offences laws in Scotland is unveiled today, raising hope that the country's historically low rate of rape convictions can be improved.
For the first time in Scots law, the concept of consent in rape cases will be clearly defined in statute. It will also be spelled out to judges and juries that a woman cannot be held responsible for an attack on her if she was so drunk that she was i
ncapable of agreeing to sex.

The Scottish Law Commission, which published the recommendations, said it was time to "clear up the confusion" surrounding consent, a fundamental issue in rape trials which is currently left up to jury members to define. Professor Gerry Maher, QC, who led the review, said: "The law has to make absolutely clear that, just because someone is very drunk, they are not consenting to having sex."

Campaigners hope the move will result in fewer cases in which a rapist is acquitted because the jury believes the victim was somehow to blame, either because she was drunk or had agreed to go home with him.

But with no proposed relaxation of the need for corroboration, they doubt whether these reforms will significantly drive up the rape conviction rate, which, at 4 per cent, is one of the lowest in the world.

Earlier this month, a survey of more than 700 potential rape-trial jurors found 40 per cent felt women contributed to an attack if they put themselves in such "risky" situations.

Prof Maher said the new definition of consent, which will require there to be "free agreement" for sex – and a list of real-life scenarios in which consent cannot have been given – would "send a warning" to men who think it is OK to "get a woman drunk" with the aim of having sex.

Under the proposals, seven different "situations" in which a woman cannot be judged to have given her consent to sexual activity will be laid down in law. They cover scenarios where a woman is intoxicated through drink or drugs, or has been threatened.

Prof Maher said: "To the extent there are social attitudes, for example women who are drunk are asking for sex or are in some way to blame, then we are sending out a signal. We hope that, by stating clearly what consent is and highlighting in law scenarios where consent is not given, juries will not bring their own attitudes towards consenting sexual behaviour.

"If we change social attitudes, clearly, that will have an impact on the conviction rate."

He said the changes were likely to lead to more successful prosecutions. "It's more likely to do that than if you leave consent undefined," he said.

"Take the scenario where women are so drunk, so intoxicated, that they reach the stage where they cannot consent. That will be spelled out, which will send a signal to people: if you are dealing with people in such a situation, you're on a warning that that person cannot consent to any sexual activity that takes place. The very fact of that will have, we think, an affect on social attitudes." He said spelling out in law real-life scenarios where consent would not apply was a "radical" move that he believed would encourage more victims to trust the legal system and come forward.

"I think it will," he said. "I think there is confusion caused by the fact that nobody quite knows what the law is. People can wonder 'was there consent to sexual activity?' One of the problems is that the complainer doesn't realise they have been raped. They think something wrong has happened, but they feel they have no recourse to legal remedy."

New crimes of sexual assault and sexual coercion, each carrying maximum life sentences, would also be created under the proposals. The latter could used against pimps and stalkers who terrorise women by sending them explicit sexual e-mails, letters and text messages.

A 200-page report published by the commission also proposes to sweep away an anomaly in Scots law by including attacks on men in the definition of rape.

But the commission is not proposing any relaxation in the rules surrounding corroboration in sexual offence cases.

The measures are expected to form the basis of a new sexual offence bill to be launched in the Scottish Parliament next year.

The Scottish Government said it would carry out a consultation on the proposals before publishing the bill next spring, but Kenny MacAskill, the justice secretary, agreed the current law on rape was "unsatisfactory, unclear and too narrowly drawn".

The commission looked at sexual law in other countries and had been impressed by the reforms carried out in Victoria, Australia, where a similar "free agreement" definition of consent had been adopted.

"It appears to have worked really well," Prof Maher said.

The report was welcomed by Rape Crisis Scotland, although the group said only a massive change in social attitudes would drive up the conviction rate.

Sandy Brindley, the body's national co-ordinator, said: "With only 3.9 per cent of rapes reported to the police in Scotland leading to a conviction, it is clear urgent action is required. It is simply not credible to argue that 96 per cent of women reporting rape are lying, therefore there are grave concerns that currently men in Scotland are getting away with rape.

"In this context, the Scottish Law Commission's proposals to clarify the law on rape, and on consent, are welcome. Rape is an issue which is surrounded by many stereotypes, misconceptions and often outright prejudice – only two weeks ago, Rape Crisis Scotland released the findings of a survey which found that 40 per cent of people blamed women for rape if we put ourselves in 'risky' situations such as going home with a man.

"It is therefore crucial that our law on rape is as clear as possible, to give a very clear message to society about what behaviour constitutes rape."

But she went on: "Law reform – while important – on its own, won't be enough to improve our dismal conviction rate for rape. We also need to make serious and sustained attempts to fundamentally change society's attitudes to rape, and to women's sexuality."

Mr MacAskill thanked the Scottish Law Commission for its "detailed and considered" report, and said: "The Scottish Government shares society's revulsion at incidents of rape.

"We are clear that this is a despicable crime and that those found guilty must be punished, and society protected.

"There has been considerable public, professional and academic concern that the current law on rape is unsatisfactory, unclear and too narrowly drawn. Equally, many other aspects of Scots law on sexual offences need modernising and require reform.

"Scotland needs a robust, modern framework of laws in this area, fit for the 21st century – a clear legal framework that ensures rapists and sex offenders are brought to justice and that victims have confidence in the justice system."

Court ruling that merely created more confusion

THE definition of consent in rape cases became mired in confusion following a high-profile case six years ago.

Ed Watt, a law student in Aberdeen, was acquitted of repeatedly raping a fellow undergraduate in her bedroom after the trial judge ruled that proof of the crime required evidence of physical force or threats.

The trial heard that he maintained the sex was consensual.

"She did not tell me to stop at any stage and at each stage I was asking if she minded going further," he told police.

But the complainer gave a radically different account to the jury.

She said: "I was saying, 'No, stop, I don't want this', but he just carried on anyway."

The ruling led to an outcry and the Lord Advocate referred the case to a panel of judges, who decided physical force was no longer required for rape to take place.

Rape now simply meant having sex with a woman without her consent.

But this raised a new question that has, until now, been left unanswered: How do you define consent?

Victims must be assured real protection

The long-awaited publication today of the Scottish Law Commission's Report on Rape and Other Sexual Offences provides a unique opportunity for an overhaul of some of the most serious offences recognised by the criminal law.

The question which will dominate the thoughts of vociferous critics of the current law is: "Have the Scottish Law Commission got it right?"

Do their proposals go far enough in the compromise between protecting citizens from sexual assault and protecting the rights of those accused of such assaults?

A number of their recommendations ought to be uncontroversial, for example the Commission's desire to adopt a gender-neutral principle where both men and women can be capable of offending and of being offended against.

What will almost certainly prove more controversial in the courts is the principle of sexual autonomy. This is where the deeply contentious issues around consent to sexual intercourse become the acid test of these reforms.

Consent to sex is proposed as "free agreement" and the draft legislation attached to the report sets out circumstances to illustrate where it will not be possible to argue that consent was freely given.

Despite the boldness of this proposal, it is not clear that it will be sufficient to deal with the following common situation.

A man accused of rape provides a statement to the police that "she consented". The woman denies this. There are no witnesses and little to corroborate either version. Although under the proposed regime the accused will have to explain why he reasonably believed the woman consented, it appears it may be sufficient for him to say, "I asked her, and she consented".

In situations where it is the complainer's word against that of the accused, her sense of duress or fear of retaliation inducing consent may not be evident. Of course, Crown counsel may be able to explore these issues with the complainer, and the jury will decide whom they believe. But the jury may never hear the accused's explanation in person and thus assess his credibility.

A recent research study for the Scottish Executive conducted by Professors Burman and Jamieson confirmed that it is comparatively rare for men to opt to go into the witness box. Instead, their police statement is presented to the jury, but there is then no opportunity for the Crown to cross-examine him on it, and no opportunity for the jury to observe his demeanour. In such circumstances one fears that a woman's sexual history could largely remain the focus of the rape trial. The proposals in this report are too important to let that happen.

• Fiona Raitt, Professor of Law, University of Dundee

'DRUNKEN CONSENT IS STILL CONSENT'

IT WAS a ruling that sent shock waves across the country.

Justice Roderick Evans instructed a jury to return a not guilty verdict after an alleged victim admitted under cross-examination that she was too drunk to remember whether or not she had agreed to sex. The judge declared at the end of the case that "drunken consent is still consent".

Professor Fiona Raitt, an expert in sexual offence law at Dundee University, said that, under the proposed reforms, a jury in Scotland should be allowed to consider the evidence.

"There would presumably be some evidence that the complainer was so drunk that she was incapable of giving her consent. The defence will undoubtedly dispute that, but the jury should be allowed to weigh up the evidence.

"But the problem of proving she was too drunk will remain."

THE 'RAPE SCENARIO'

1 The person has taken or been given alcohol or other substances and as a result lacks the capacity to consent, unless consent has been given earlier.

2 The person is unconscious or asleep and has not earlier given consent to sexual activity.

3 The person agrees or submits to sex because he or she is subject to violence or the threat of violence.

4 The person agrees or submits to sex because he or she is unlawfully detained by the accused.

5 The person agrees or submits to sex because he or she has been deceived by the accused "about the nature or purpose of the activity".

6 The person agrees to the act because the accused impersonates someone who is known to the alleged victim.

7 The only expression of agreement to sex is made by someone other than the alleged victim.

LAW CHANGES

• Consent will be defined in law as "free agreement".

• Non-consent scenarios, such as a woman being so drunk she is incapable of agreeing to sex, will be stated in law.

• The definition of rape will become gender-neutral, so male rape will be recognised as such.

• An accused's insistence that he believed a woman consented will have to be "reasonably held".

• New offences of sexual assault, sexual coercion and rape against children and people with a mental disorder will be created.



The full article contains 2184 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Kipling,

19/12/2007 00:39:38
How will a drunken Scottish male understand that a drunken female doesn't want to sleep with him? Arrogance is part & parcel of that mentality. Surely not all these rape cases involve a sober male.
2

Maisie from Morningside,

morningside 19/12/2007 01:34:23
Who decides the woman was too drunk to give consent and how is this proved?
3

,

19/12/2007 01:36:13
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4

Guga II,

Rockall 19/12/2007 01:47:23
#1 has a good point. If the female was too drunk to remember whether she gave consent or not, and the male was too drunk to remember whether consent was given, is that rape? I wouldn't think so. Who is going to be believed? The female, because she is a female?

Also, what happens if the female, not too drunk, consents, then in the morning changes her mind? Who is going to be believed? The female, because she is a female?

Point 5 above is also a strange one:
"5 The person agrees or submits to sex because he or she has been deceived by the accused "about the nature or purpose of the activity"."

Eh? The nature and purpose of the activity, i.e. having sex, is, strangely anough, about having sex. How can you deceive anyone about the nature or purpose of having sex?

It seems to me that it is getting to the stage that men will have to carry around a consent form and get the female to sign it beforehand; though even then she could claim coercion.

Perhaps the men need to also carry around an audio recorder, and get consent that way. Or better still, video the whole episode. Though then he would probably be charged with making pornography. Still, if videoing things is good enough for the police, it should be good enough for men who are liable to be accused of rape because some female, for whatever reason, chenges her mind the next morning, or the next day, or even the next week.

Don't get me wrong, I do not agree with rape, and think any person that rapes another should be severely punished. However, this proposal tends to swing the pendulum too far in the opposite direction, and could result in the proposed law being abused. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.
5

,

19/12/2007 02:04:42
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6

Guga II,

Rockall 19/12/2007 02:54:36
#5 MacAlba. Good point. Anyone who falsely accuses, or fabricates evidence, to obtain the conviction of another, should be charged with corruption and perverting the course of justice; and should be liable to the same sentence that would have been imposed on the person they falsely accused or attempted to frame.
7

John Blackley,

Austin, TX 19/12/2007 03:50:40
Very amusing. Professor Gerry Maher, QC, who led the review, said: "The law has to make absolutely clear that, just because someone is very drunk, they are not consenting to having sex."

I wait, with 'bated breath, their Honours' attempts at defining what - precisely - "very drunk" means in Scotland.
8

somerferg,

oz 19/12/2007 04:29:46

Dear John (how appropriate) - "very drunk" in Scotland means the same as "very drunk" in Austin i.e. incapable of rational decision making because of excessive alcohol intake. I wonder if thats what was happening with you before you wrote your comment??
9

Yane,

Melbourne 19/12/2007 06:24:15
It seems to me that what this article & the law is trying to address is not the question of whether women have been attacked (& it does use that word early on) but the attitude of many, many people that if she was attacked, & she was drunk, then she was responsible — she put herself in a risky situation.
This is horrific.
10

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 19/12/2007 06:29:08
The drunks are too busy comitting murder to have any time for rape.
11

Purlie Wilson,

Melbourne Oz 19/12/2007 06:58:22
Without putting too fine a point upon it but my impression is that a drunken [if truly blotto] male has a "member" way too flexible to do anything but point Percy at the porcelain.
Rape of female or male for that matter is truly reprehensible. Alas rape has been going on since man learned to walk upright and 99% of the time simply stronger to impose his will.
I wish I knew the answer?
12

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 19/12/2007 07:01:56
Re somerferg (#8) : " "very drunk" in Scotland means the same as "very drunk" in Austin i.e. incapable of rational decision making because of excessive alcohol intake."

Sounds fair, but whose word have we for that, apart from somerferg's?

From the article: "The definition of rape will become gender-neutral, so male rape will be recognised as such."

That's very welcome. If two "very drunk" people then have sex together, will each of them have raped the other?
13

Samcafe,

Glasgow 19/12/2007 07:03:04
So, if a woman has sex with a drunken man can she be charged with rape?
14

ex katman 2,

x sudan 19/12/2007 07:10:01
Rape is repugnant but very hard to prove.Watering down or softening the law to achieve convictions is surely the wrong way to go about it.There is nothing macho about raping a woman and anyway i imagine a woman giving consent to sex does not mean she is giving consent to rape.
15

,

19/12/2007 07:15:41
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16

Lord of All Mordor,

Within Sight Of The Glorious Nokia River 19/12/2007 07:16:50
There should be specific prohibitions on questioning relating to underwear worn by young women - especially if it was not visible. One young girl has committed suicide as a result of the humiliating questions about her thong, and being forced to hold it up in court. One death like that diminshes us all.

I think this is the case but observed in the breach as they say: questions about a woman's sexual history should only be allowed if a man's past is detailed fully in court first eg past convictions etc.

17

Bryce Curdy,

Lanarkshire 19/12/2007 07:17:12
Identifying the problem is simple; the solution is far harder. Rape, by its nature, is usually one person's word against another's, and our justice system requires guilt to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. This does not explain why the rate in Scotland is the lowest in Europe. Lowering the burden of proof will increse convictions but at the inevitable expense of occasional miscarriages of justice. How many extra correct convictions justify a single incorrect one?

Introducing alcohol to the issue is a minefield. Obviously if a woman (or man) has a decreased conscious level then I think we can all accept that she/he cannot give consent. At the same time, taking the drink driving limit, for example, would be farcical. These two examples illustrate one of the problems here. As your blood alcohol limit rises, your decision making faculties steadily become more impaired, but how do you define the point where you can no longer give consent? There is a whole spectrum rather than only two possible states. Is there also a distinction to be made between people who actively consent while intoxicated from those who merely do not 'not consent'. What about a situation where the intoxicated individual makes the advances? This comes back to the woman who was too drunk to remember. Under the new proposed legislation I assume the arguement will be if she was too drunk to remember then by definition she was too drunk to consent and therefore the accused must be guilty. I can follow the logic but I'm not sure how comfortable I am with it. The detail will be crucial here although I fear the whole thing is unworkable.

18

Happyhibee1956,

19/12/2007 07:20:43
Looks and sounds to me a lesbians charter to get more chances for an inoccent man to go to jail.

And before any smart @rse says it yeah I know it will increase the chance of a guilty perp going to jail, but at what price?

Any?
19

Happyhibee1956,

19/12/2007 07:28:01
#5 & 6

Agree.
Good points well made.

However, There isn't a cats chance in hell of punishing said offenders as the womans groups, charities, etc wuould blow a Dutch cap if you tried to enforce laws for that type of crime as anti women and naming and shaming is defenitely a no no as they would argue less women would come forward to report a rape.
20

Boy Wonder,

19/12/2007 07:56:51
No should mean no, however it is is said.

And any man who has sex with a woman who is drunk is a first-class sicko who needs his head examined! Surely it would be like having intercourse with a dead body? What kind of a turn-on is that?

Rape is a criminal offence ... with NO exceptions! And the men who force themselves on to women should be castrated! And no ... not just chemically!




21

Iain's,

19/12/2007 08:00:18
Is the defence for rapists to be "I was too drunk to understand the word 'no' said in a slurred way by a drunken woman"
22

Yane,

Melbourne 19/12/2007 08:06:08
I've read all the comments from you blokes over the past year about rape & I know some of you are at the kiddin — an far be it frae me tae be a humourless feminist. Yet I have to say — if this is a sample survey of people's attitudes then I am in no doubt — there is a deperate need for radical cultural change.
All power to those trying to achieve it.
23

Sinnerman,

Another Planet 19/12/2007 08:24:54
I can see the purpose of the 5th scenario: this will protect those mentally incapable of understanding that it was a sex act. The "intellectually challenged" would be protected under this scenario.

Also, scenario 7 can be used to prosecute any "clients" using a woman who has be forced into prostitution. The consent is given by the pimp, not the woman.

24

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 19/12/2007 08:39:15
#21 BW, I agree, it was just what I was saying about the'
"free condoms for drunks" issue on here the other day!
If a girl is "to drunk" to NOT know what she is doing,
Why the "free condom handout"??
I would class that as '"Rape"
And lets face it! if the Guy was "too drunk", he wouldn't 'get-it-on' in more ways than one!
25

BK,

Cyberspace 19/12/2007 08:45:36
AS couple both get drunk and have fully consensual sex. Next morning one of the parties (probably the woman) has regrets and shouts "rape!" Witnesses say "but I saw you going to bed willingly with the man." She replies "but I was too drunk to consent." Justice? And could the man not equally shout "rape" saying he was too drunk and the woman took advantage of him?
26

Mong basher,

19/12/2007 08:47:07
When I first read this i had all sorts of concerns about the legal implications of people following the natural course of events while drinking. However rereading the points again those concerns dissipated. These are all pretty straightforward and practical issues and I think a good idea.
27

St. Helena,

Peebles 19/12/2007 08:49:25
The law is still an ass.
28

thinking,

Scotland 19/12/2007 09:03:46
Surely, less drunkenness would lead to less rapes.
So, reduce the drinking.
It wouldn't solve all but would be a significant help.
29

Proud2Be,

Federation my erse!!! 19/12/2007 09:39:24
In Scottish Law whether a person is "drunk" or not is determined by the person making the decision. There is no legal definintion of it. This has been very well defined over the years in licensing related cases.

"Very Drunk" is simply an opinion that a person is more than just merely "drunk". It has no legal weight.

Therefore will it be up to the accused to decide if the complainant is "very drunk"? Or will we have people standing outside our pubs and clubs, paid for by the taxpayer, who will be on hand to make a determination, and provide certification, of ability to make consent??

I applaud the intention of this work however I fear the scope for significant interpretation may cause significant distress to genuine complainants.
30

Keir Hardie,

Inverness 19/12/2007 09:44:12
#34 that would solve a great variety of problems.
31

Harumph,

Harumphland 19/12/2007 10:15:29
If anyone watched the programme "The End of the World Cult" the other evening, you will then understand what No 5 means about "The person agrees or submits to sex because he or she has been deceived by the accused "about the nature or purpose of the activity".
In this cult the self-proclaimed "Messiah" consumates with anyone with whom God tells him to, much to his (the Messiah's) own discomfort. Yeah right. Those he has consumated with include his own son's wife and underage girls. All of these women and girls had been led to believe it was God's will that this happen. Now, I don't know about you, but even if these women agreed, and even though they seemed a bit odd to believe the bloke in the first place, the underage girls really didn't seem to realise what had taken place even though it was blatantly obvious to the documenter and probably every single viewer. Now that's what I call rape ...
32

Sassenach Observer,

Edinburgh 19/12/2007 10:48:57
The problem with a law which says that someone was "too drunk" to consent (i.e. too drunk to be responsible for their own actions) is surely that it would have to carry over to other areas.

Therefore "I am not guilty of impaired driving because I was too drunk to be responsible for my own actions".

33

Sassenach Observer,

19/12/2007 10:59:44
"A recent research study for the Scottish Executive conducted by Professors Burman and Jamieson confirmed that it is comparatively rare for men to opt to go into the witness box. Instead, their police statement is presented to the jury, but there is then no opportunity for the Crown to cross-examine him on it, and no opportunity for the jury to observe his demeanour."

The accused's right not to give evidence in court should be abolished in all criminal trials. The factors above apply equally no matter what the alleged offence happens to be and it is better to apply an across the board change to legal procedure than to attempt to tamper with the presumption of innocence for offences where we think the conviction rate isn't high enough.
34

Kobi.,

19/12/2007 12:06:04
#35

Spot on. The view of a sheriff as to what is very drunk will differ from that of a copper which will differ from that of someone out on the lash. There is no legal definition, and there probably cannot be.
35

The Riddler 2,

19/12/2007 12:07:52
Most right thinking men are extremely careful when they are with a woman (and doubly so if she’s been out on the hit and miss), so there can be no dubiety anyway. If she is really consenting to intercourse then the man doesn’t have to do anything other than lie still on his back and allow her to prove quite conclusively that she’s consenting – if he’s passive, there can be no question about it at all. Follow the Riddler’s advice and you can’t go wrong!

However, these new definitions will weed out all the chancers who don’t know how to treat a lady like the Riddler – there’s not much you can do about some of the randy wee sods out there, but this law reform is surely a step in the right direction.
36

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 19/12/2007 12:19:48
Difficult to comment on this... Apart from the fact that it is yet another excercise in trying to define the undefinable.

Previously the decision as to consent rested with juries---and that is the way it should stay. Contrary to popular belief, consent is not obective. It is subjective and should be dealt with as such.

All this new junk legislation will do is to put people on edge and give the potential route to take a sex session gone wrong to a whole new level. There are STILL going to be no witnesses to the actual event and as such there is still an element of doubt---something that cannot be defined out by lawyers.

As has been mentioned earlier, an innocent man's life can be ruined by a false acusation of rape. Should there not be more being done to discourage this potential malicious route? I like to think that I am a good enough judge of character to be able to avoid women who may later turn nasty in this way and hopefully I am. However, some men are no so fortunate.
37

Dorian,

19/12/2007 12:25:41
Why not also bring in legislation that allows bar staff to not serve women drink if they think that the woman could be drunk enough to get herself into trouble, that could mean one drink and no more. What about mandatory breathe tests for women before the are allowed into a pub or club, too drunk no entry, men are kept safe from false allegations.
38

Club Player,

Aberdeen 19/12/2007 12:32:52
The low conviction rate tells us 2 things in my opinion: 1. A lot of men are getting away with it and 2. A lot of complaints are either totally spurious or totally without fact.

The proposed reforms may do something to improve scenario 1, although they will more likely see an end to one night stands, with blokes opening themselves up to potential rape claims if they sleep with a girl who's had a couple of beers.

But what about scenario 2, where's the protection for the accused from malicious complaints etc such as anonyminity until proven guilty etc. The law should not be sexist.
39

,

19/12/2007 13:09:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
40

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 19/12/2007 13:10:37
49 cont.

Depending on the time it took the woman student to decide she really meant 'no' when she actually said 'yes' (and the woman in the case agrees that she did indeed initially say 'yes'), the punishment against the male student could be suspension from classes for a certain short period, or a suspension for the rest of the Quarter/Semester, or a suspension for the rest of the academic year, OR if the male student in question fights the whole affair, actually being 'stupid' enough to defend himself, denying his 'culpability' in such a 'rape', he could find himself EXPELLED.

Mind you, this does not include the fact that he could LOSE grants, scholarships, and any other public funding because of his 'crime'.

ALL those male students who are allowed to remain enrolled at the college university after such an ordeal, are REQUIRED to take re-education classes, lead by Rad Feminist professors, so that these 'criminals' will NOT 're-offend.' They are instructed that ALL men are potential rapists, because that 'desire' is inherent in the male psyche.

Am I kidding? NO, NO, and again, NO!!!!

This type of lunatic thinking migrated to the general public and folks, let me tell you that since your country has a much small population than does the USA, it will NOT take 5 years to migrate into the general population or law, particularly since it is STARTING in the general public and law.

You men had better make sure that you have your cell phones fully charged, and that they are equipped with a GOOD high end camera, that takes VIDEO and AUDIO. You'd better be prepared to get a FULL and PRECISE videoed CONSENT, prior to any intimacy.

Again, I am NOT pulling your leg.

This thing is really serious guys. Take a look at the rationale behind this new lunatic ruling: HIGHER CONVICTION RATES for RAPE CASES.

Nobody said word one about actually making sure that JUSTICE prevailed, they all want higher conviction rates.

Take a wild guess at how often women wil
41

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 19/12/2007 13:13:55
50 cont.

Take a wild guess at how often women will be prosecuted under the new guidelines.

Does the phrase, 'hen's teeth' mean anything to you?

Unless some men's organizations comes to the fore, to ask such questions, file some suits preventing the implementation of such laws, some of you men had better get set to spend some time in prison.

Again, I am NOT joking.

Male Scots have just had their behinds handed to them and it's going to get worse.

Lastly, to give you some concrete evidence and incentive to keep yourselves out of prison, take the time to Google 'Date Rape' for various Universities in the USA, and then take the time to read the whole aspect of such cases; what happened to the student, the protocols of the unversities, etc.

Save yourselves a world of grief for what most certainly isn't worth the pain or lost years.

Cheers from the Rockies.
42

Anthony,

Glasgow 19/12/2007 13:19:42
In the article, it quotes "campaigners" as stating that the proposal will prevent acquitals because the jury thought the woman brought matters on herself for being drunk. But how can they know this? In Scotland juries do not discuss the case. Could it not be that the jury perhaps weighed up all the evidence and were not satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the accused was guilty? Perhaps the fact the woman was drunk didn't help when considering her recall of events? That would be an evidential matter, not something "campaigners" or misguided social-engineers should be interfering with. Rape is a disgusting offence. But I sincerely hope we are not going to see more vindictive sexual offences legislation, which seems to be based on little more than thinly veiled hatred of men.
43

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 19/12/2007 13:25:15
Hello again,

I'd like to make one further notation on this issue.

It was more than a little telling that the 'Experts' which redefined the rules by which rape will be prosecuted, never bothered to really address the one sided assumption they had with which to start:

That only the male is culpable in real terms. While they provide lip service to the 'gender neutral' 'nature' of the new definitions, you'll note that 99% of the responsibility for determining the line between 'able to consent' and 'unable to consent' is held SOLELY upon the shoulders of the males.

Re-read the article if you think I'm wrong; the whole key theme of the article is to jack up conviction rates of MEN (when was the last time you can remember a woman being convicted of rape?), while the underlying theme is that women are WHOLLY the victims, even when both the man and the woman were drunk.

Remind me again just how ethical, moral, or legal, it is to hold only one party liable for their behaviour, while completely freeing the other party of ANY responsibility for the SAME BEHAVIOUR?

Again, I ask you: When was the last time you saw a woman convicted of rape, and further, how man women each year are convicted of rape?

You men had better get prepared, because YOU'RE the ones being led down the Primrose Path.......all the way to Prison.

Cheers from the Rockies
44

Andrew D,

Brisbane 19/12/2007 13:40:54
I really dislike this rubbish.

If a man and a woman are drunk and agree to have drunk sex, the woman (note it is all presented as ways for the WOMAN) can turn around later and say "actually I was too drunk so even though I said YES I meant NO" and the guy goes to jail. Is the guy going to be allowed to the next day go "oh god what did I do sleeping with her, I hate her, she's a dog, she must have raped me"?

The nonsense that is this law is trying to fix a tangential and smaller part of the problem of rape in the legal system. The bigger more serious part is that the attitude used in defence of alleged rape is always that the woman lead the man on, or did you REALLY say no? Not that they were drunk. No means no, and we can't turn around and say that yes means no too or we're making a farce of... everything.

I'm sure I'm not alone in this but I know two females close to me who have been raped. Both said NO at the time, one trying to beat the other party off her and ending up with some serious bruises at the time. Both went to the police and both were told that it would be their word against the other parties. The policeman that spoke to the one who fought was even told that it might have just been rough sex they got involved with, explaining her bruises. (She ended up in counselling for a long time after that)

Tell me just HOW that will be changed by this very negative and unsafe new law?

Bad news.
45

dunnoony,

19/12/2007 13:41:54
the ideas of society about rape need to change. those 40 per cent who think somebody actually "contributes" to rape obviously should think again. are they indeed trying to tell me that ANYBODY wants to be raped? or would do or continue doing something which may lead to them being raped? anybody would stop doing whatever they do as soon as they become aware that their counterpart has the intention to rape them -if that could stop the rapist-to-be.
it doesn't matter what anybody wears (if a woman wants to streak then that still is no invitation whatsoever to rape her) or how they behave, there is no excuse any rape and never an invite for one.
what state is a society in if you have to restrict yourself from wearing say shorts in the summer because that may trigger an attack? or smile at a stranger because they may mistake this for an invite to sex? a very sad state indeed.
a no is a no. if somebody changes their mind and does not want intercourse anymore then this is a no and nothing else.
nobody deserves or wants to be raped and therefore rapists should be punished using the full force of the law.
46

,

19/12/2007 13:51:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
47

Seaforth,

19/12/2007 13:55:40
56 Fake Ayrshire Scot™ ,

You are drunk? That explains your tedious and rather dull contributions, as well as your child-like decision to fake another contributor to this forum.
48

Boab,

Glasgow 19/12/2007 14:01:57
#49-51 And just how many men are in US prisons due to false accusations of rape, Neanderthal? Show me a statistic, please. Is it even in double figures for the whole USA? How many college students were expelled? Five, perhaps?

Men commit rape, not women, so they need to take the responsibility that the sex is consensual. I welcome these proposals.
49

Seaforth,

19/12/2007 14:05:44
Anthony, Glasgow,

I'm not sure I agree that this is hate of men. Put simply, we have some of the lowest conviction rates for rape - and they have fallen through time. Now, either men are on the whole raping fewer women, or, Lawyers have worked out how to place enough seeds of doubt and get around the law i.e. the present law is inadequate. I am willing to accept that crime rates rise and fall, but there are always going to be men who will rape. I just don't think the figures reflect the situation.
50

Alexander Mac,

basildon 19/12/2007 14:07:48
The "To Drunk Issue" is scary. I agree with no 35...I do not believe that there is any other area where being "To Drunk" is an excuse. I.e. "I was drunk so I stabed him," "I was drunk so had a fight, I didn't know what I was doing." I believe that consent or implied consent has to be given however weather you are drunk or not should have no bearing on the validity of that consent....as some one said "the bloke may also be drunk"...In this case if the bloke is drunk is it OK if he rapes some one becasue he was to drunk to make a rational decision.....I think not....we MUST all be equal under the law or we are going to be going down a very slippery slope.
51

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 19/12/2007 14:17:20
Boab,

How about you do your own work, just as I've done?

I note that you can't address any of the pertinent points I've made, referencing the obvious double standard in culpability: men are held responsible for their actions while, drunk, whereas women are not.

How do you reconcile that inequity?

"Men commit rape, not women."?

Just why then did the Definers of the New Definition, STRESS that the new laws will be 'gender neutral'? They at least gave lip service to the idea, even though in practice, there shan't be any equity in how the law will be applied.

Go ahead and address the equity issues, the culpability issues, the moral, ethical, and lastly, the legal issues, of holding men to a different and higher standard than are women.

Your position smacks of anti-male hatred and most certainly self-loathing if you are a man. It also smacks of lack of spine, should you refuse to address the equity issues.

Either we're ALL held to the same legal standards, or we can do away with all laws and just let the Law of the Jungle prevail.

Cheers from the Rockies
52

The jurist,

19/12/2007 14:58:15
Free agreement to what? Penetration? Once, twice, to orgasm? To mutual orgasm? Must this be discussed with lawyers beforehand? Is sex on a par with some sort of surgical procedure, passively carried out on a patient? Surely the law and juries must be recognise that sexual behaviour generally occurs in an emotional cloud, not a calm lawyer's office. This is particularly so in the context of the 'date rape' cases. The offence should be based on a jury's objective view of the sexual freedom of all concerned and how they communicate their sexuality. Wreckless disregard for how one's behaviour might reasonably be interpreted, not a blanket right of denial for a woman, ought to be an objective issue for a jury. If the sexes are free and equal then each has duties.
53

The Riddler 2,

19/12/2007 15:17:50
46
Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

You’re quite right about how women can suddenly turn nasty for no apparent reason: I can’t think why none of my exes have a good word to say about me (that’s women for you!)
54

The Riddler 2,

19/12/2007 15:23:25
#47 Dorian: the legislation is already in place to prevent bar tenders from serving alcohol to punters who have already had too much: I’ve never been refused myself (because I’m a seasoned drinker and so can hide it) but I know that others have been refused because they’ve had too much (I’m severely p*ssed just now, incidentally).
55

The Riddler 2,

19/12/2007 15:30:36
#48 Club Player: I know that I’ve been with a few girls who’ve gone out with me (for one time only!) and then find out that they can’t stick me. They could have started shouting rape if they’d taken a total downer on me, but fortunately they didn’t (does the law take a view on this, stick in your pipe, you highly paid (grossly overpaid lawyer numpties!)
56

The Riddler 2,

19/12/2007 15:42:13
49
Neanderthal75,

I just know that Franz Kafka would appreciate your post (ever heard of “The Trial” for the ill educated among you? I know that one ex took against me for no apparent reason and could have got me the jail, if she’d been that sick!)
57

The Riddler 2,

19/12/2007 15:49:52
50
Neanderthal75,

Quite right, women are out for what they can get: just the same as men: why should the fact that they are allegedly the weaker sex allow them to take it out on men!
58

The Riddler 2,

19/12/2007 15:59:27
#53 Neanderthal 75: you’re quite right: women get off with it, just because they don’t have the strength to commit the crime of rape. Why is this? Both sexes have exactly the same desires, as should be obvious to anyone with half a brain.
59

Name in Use,

Edinburgh 19/12/2007 16:11:50
"Better 100 guilty men walk free than a single inocent man convicted"
This is the principle our justice system is based on, and for good reason.

The fact that this means rape convicions are inherently going to be low is just something we have to suck up becasue the cost of anyhting else is just unnaceptable.
60

The Riddler 2,

19/12/2007 16:12:24
#56 Ayrshire Scot: at last! We have something in common, although I still don’t want Sctttish Independence (as drunk as I am just now!)
61

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 19/12/2007 16:15:11
#55 Dunnoony

Agree with you. However, woman should try not to put themselves at risk unnecessarily.

Also, what you say applies equally to men. There have been cases where a guy has slept with a woman simply because he was drunk and she was insistent and sober. A woman that he would never normally have considered sleeping with. Should that guy report this as rape the next morning?
62

Sandi,

San Diego 19/12/2007 16:17:05
Is it any wonder that most women who are raped don't even report it? Even her in the US where the laws are rightly much stronger. All you "men" who have posted here, each and every one of you has/had a mother, some of you may have sisters, some may have wives. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

#64, women can be, and are, raped with objects other than a penis. Men can be raped, usually by other men, in similar fashion.
63

Ken,

19/12/2007 16:19:23
This is indeed very worrying, if you are a man. Yes, rape, when committed should be treated severly in the courts, but so should false claims. To my moind the women can reck a mans life with just popping into a police station and claiming rape. Now, if there has been sexual intercourse, how can a man defend himself! I recon he can't with this new legistlation.
How many peoole wake up in the morning and regret their actions the night before. All it takes is a bitter or regretful female to make a claim.
There will never be a full proof way of determining rape, unless it is obvious through injuries or witnessed, but as we all know usually there is no coroboration.
What not to do it just assume that the man is guilty. It seems that equal rights do not exist, if we didn't already know this.
Anyhow, real rape is disgusting and should be treated harshly, false claims should also.
64

busybee,

California 19/12/2007 16:21:00
Someone being intoxicated doesn't mean it is ok to have your way with them. And if people are so concerned this law will ruin their sex life, then you need to think twice about your sex life. Don't have sex with someone who isn't able to give consent, don't have sex with someone you think may call it rape, and don't rape anyone. Rape is the most underreported crime and most rapists go free.
Scotland is far behind... Not having these laws already...
65

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 19/12/2007 16:22:17
#73 Sandi, a bit harsh to categorise all posters as shameful.
66

Anthony,

Glasgow 19/12/2007 16:22:49
(59) Seaforth - there are other possibilities. Perhaps the not proven verdict playing a role? Maybe more malicious complaints? Perhaps a crime being defined in a complaint as 'rape' but the complainer agreeing that what happened, even if still an offence, wasn't rape? I do genuinely share your concern though, if men are raping women and getting away with it, then it is hugely disturbing and unacceptable. What I am concerned about, is the increasing role of strict liability for convicting (mostly men) under the heading of sexual offences. Strict liability increases the conviction rate by use of a simple method - severely restrict the defences open to the accused. This can result in some really dreadfully wrong and unfair outcomes. Strict liability was supposed to only apply to lesser crimes, and was always taken into account when sentencing. Now its creeping into more serious offences, and this looks like it gaining a foothold in the crime of rape as well. Given that this extention of strict liability is restricted mostly to offences which men are charged with, I do believe we are in danger of having gender based legal apartheid in Scotland.
67

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 19/12/2007 16:23:11
#75 busybee

What laws are you referring to?
68

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 19/12/2007 16:24:01
for your info we have always had laws against rape!
69

Ken,

19/12/2007 16:27:14
#73,
Yes, I have a mother and wife and two young girls. If I thought that any of them had been raped I would sincerely wish to kill the offender.
I do not think any males with comments here should be ashamned! any more than the female's comments.
For your information, unless the law has changed recently, the rape statute actually mentions the p@nis being inserted into the v@gina, hense males cannot leaglly be raped, sodomised, yes.
A woman who is 'raped' with an instrument other than the p@nis is not techniclally raped, sexually assaulted, yes.
70

busybee,

California 19/12/2007 16:27:27
All the real rapes should not be dismissed so that the very little minority of those falsely accused don't have to prove their innocence.
More than half of sexual assaults in the US go unreported, and in the US we already have these laws that Scotland is just now recommending.

http://www.rainn.org/statistics/index.html?PHPSESSID=487d406e495157235257233e16101b44
71

busybee,

California 19/12/2007 16:29:25
78 & 79, I'm actually speaking in reference to the article, about the concept of consent in rape cases.
72

Ken,

19/12/2007 16:33:40
#81
'the little minority..', have you nay figures to back that one up please! As 10% of cases ae proved rape, that means that 90% are not. Now even if the system is not right, surely there are one hell of alot of false claims, most of which can ruin a mans life, reck their marriage, lose them their job etc.
No one here has suggested that we dismiss the real rapes, by the way!
If more than 50% of rapes go unreported, how do you know?
73

Allan(handofgod137),

19/12/2007 16:40:17
Does this mean that if I have drunken sex with a woman whio subsequently becomes pregnant, I can refuse to pay child support as I was not capeable of consent?
74

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 19/12/2007 16:45:18
To put a slightly different slant on this, what protection is there for the poor bloke who gets drunk, gets seduced by a woman and ends getting bedded against HIS will?

Don't laugh. It happens.
75

busybee,

California 19/12/2007 16:48:27
#83- I'm not going to hold your hand and go through statistics with you.

Bottom line, if you were not able to say no, or if you tried to say no, it is rape.
76

busybee,

California 19/12/2007 16:50:52
Some of you obviously think this is a joke. Maybe this will ease the mind of all you men who can only get laid with an unconscious victim....

If the rape is reported to police, there is a 50.8% chance that an arrest will be made.
If an arrest is made, there is an 80% chance of prosecution.
If there is a prosecution, there is a 58% chance of a felony conviction.
If there is a felony conviction, there is a 69% chance the convict will spend time in jail.
So, even in the 39% of attacks that are reported to police, there is only a 16.3% chance the rapist will end up in prison.
Factoring in unreported rapes, about 6% of rapists — 1 out of 16 — will ever spend a day in jail. 15 out of 16 will walk free.
77

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 19/12/2007 16:51:10
To San Diego and Busybee:

I note with no little irony, that NEITHER of you seem to have the courage to address the inherent inequity in the US Rape Laws and now the Scottish Re-defined laws:

Women are NOT held to the same standard of culpability as men.

And here I thought that Feminists were all about Equity?

The necessary implication of your positions on this matter is that women are helpless victims of all men; who are ruthless according to you.

The Superwoman concept seems to go by the wayside, just as soon as sexual intercourse comes to the fore (no pun intended).

You want one standard, a higher standard, for men, and another standard, while requiring the lowest standard possible for women-ZERO responsibility in every case.

A man gets drunk and has sex with a woman who is drunk; the woman changes her mind the next day or during the week following, viola', instant Rape!

The man is held RESPONSIBLE while drunk, while the woman is NOT held responsible while drunk.

So much for the vaunted Equal Rights you women keep harping about all the time.

You don't want Equal Rights, you demand Special Rights; and at the cost of Prison Time for men falsely accused.

The standard is so LOW for women and women are NOT held legally to account for false accusations, that its become Open Season on men in the USA.

The Duke Rape Case is a prime example of just this FACT!

The lives of 3 young men were directly RUINED by one false accusation from a woman. The 3 young men were expelled from Duke University, 88 Professors and Faculty signed an open page declaration CONDEMNING the 3 young men, and each of the young men had to spend nearly 1 MILLION dollars in defending themselves.

All of the condemnation occurred BEFORE any trial had been had, BEFORE any evidence had been laid forth, BEFORE any investigation had been finished.

All their lives, those 3 young men will be known as 'the Rapists' even though we now know that NO RAPE OCCURRED.

Indir
78

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 19/12/2007 16:52:07
88 cont.

Indirectly, the whole Duke Lacross Team suffered as well, because the entire team was suspended and the team's entire YEAR'S SEASON done away with by the Du7ke Administration.

This kind of unethical, immoral, and unjust, treatment of young men, by the Powers that Be, on college and university campuses occur REGULARLY, though not the severe degree which the three INNOCENT young Duke Lacross Players faced.

How about you two step up to the plate and address the Real World problems with the US laws and now the Scottish Laws?

I'll not hold my breath though, as those demanding Special Rights for Women, rarely if ever come forth in an honest manner and actually discuss things in the light of day.

You may be an exception, but if you are, it'll be a first.

Cheers from the Rockies
79

Ken,

19/12/2007 16:57:44
#86/87,
ok, so you do not have any statistics then! why not just admit it :-)
As for 'men' thinking that this is a joke, far from it, please do not degrade yourself with these femanist comments.
What are you figures (sorry, you dont have any) on the numer of recked male lives with false reporting, and also what are the figures (sorry, you don't have any) of the convictions for false rape.
You factor in unreprted rapes, but you cannot give us any figures on that, as there are none. What do you base this figure on?
80

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 19/12/2007 17:05:42
Neanderthal75 - good and thought-provoking posts. You're a brave man to go against the spirit of the age, which is that women can do no wrong and men can do no right - and also, of course, that women have all the rights but men have none.
81

The jurist,

19/12/2007 17:06:50
I would change my handle if I were you Neantherdal, as it does not reflect the cogency of your points. I agree that the dominant paradigm of rape is that women do not have responsibility, are acted upon, and their womb is polluted. This may very well be so in the egrigious rapes which we all condemn. But what it fails to take account of is female sexual desire, the creation of arousal, male and female sexual and emotional insecurity, and where sex becomes a bad consensual bargain, where the parties didn't get what they wanted. Laywers have huge difficulties making just and fair rules about this. That is why i think it should be an oblective matter of whether someone's sexual freedoms have been traduced, and a jury question.
82

Ken,

19/12/2007 17:07:10
#86 Bottom line, if you were not able to say no, or if you tried to say no, it is rape

I do not think there is anyone on the forum that would disagre with this comment. The fact that you have stated this is shows you ineptitude of this issue.
How would you decide if a rapetook place, witht eh evidence at hand, ie no witnesses, no injuries, bruising ect?
Come on smarty pants, give us a clue?
83

busybee,

California 19/12/2007 17:09:42
Neanderthal75- Your name fits you nicely. And don't put words in my mouth. Everything I have posted goes for men to, just the same.
And although you have one HIGLY publicized event, and YES there are false rape cases, but that doesn't discount all the rape cases, BTW are not flagged on TV for you to see because rape happens to people who are not famous also.
Rape is seroius and should not be falsely accused.

Ken- I based my figures on the link I posted perviously.

And do you men really want to continue bickering at my posts? I applaude Scotland for their reform on the concept of rape. And I hope that no one has to go through such a incident, but if you do, I hope you have all the support and strength you need to get through the trying times. Man, woman, child, adult, drunk, sober, if you were not capable of saying no, or if you said no and were still forced upon, do not let anyone make you feel ashamed. It is the rapist who should feel the shame. Be strong and get the medical and mental help you may need, and if you decide to prosecute, I applaude you.
84

,

19/12/2007 17:13:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
85

busybee,

19/12/2007 17:16:36
Ken- I was almost raped. I had two drinks. He was my sober drive home. He forced me in the back of his car, got on top of me. I kicked and pushed and yelled. No one heard me. I had bruise marks on my neck. I had his DNA under my nails from trying to fight him off. He left me for a second because a friend of his came and knocked on a car. Witness. Oh wait, the witness was his friend and didn't try to help me. I was saved because I called for help on my cell phone and when the assaultor came back I told him people are looking for me and to let me out of the car and get away from me. I had pictures of the bruises. I went to the ER. I didn't change my clothes. He came so close to raping me. But the assaultor claimed he never touched me and that I was too "friendly" so it people thought it was my fault.
So forgive me if I'm passionate about the subject. I do not want anyone to go through what I have. Although my assaultor got minor infractions, hopefully he will not do this to another. Which was my only motivator in coming forward with the assault.
86

Eve,

Scotland 19/12/2007 17:19:41
#1 Kipling: Depends on how drunk he is!!!
It's been scientifically proven that large amounts of alcohol can make a woman more horny so to speak (though that doesn't necessary mean that they want to have sex)and large amount of alcohol is very likely to make a man impadent.

So the chance of a very drunk male acaly have sex with a very drunk female is very unlikely, more like to spend the time sleeping, than any thing else.

I don't know if you know anyone like this BUT I've met a few guys (NOT necessary rapist) how find it amusing to give a girl a higher strength drink than they say it is i.e. it's a double in a mixer instead of a single measure. Surprisingly a lot of men find getting a women drunk funny.

I''ve also heard that some men have added double vodkas to a woman's glass of wine. This is the reason that when I'm out I always hold on to my drink and never leave it about the place. Though this doesn't work when it's the barman that's futring about with the drinks.
87

Ken,

19/12/2007 17:20:12
#94
Again you do not answer my questions!
As for bickering, I think that the 'statistcs' would show that women are the unvierse's best at bickering. My wife taught me all I know about that :-)
I am afraid you have been found out as a narrow minded femanist, who does not accept anything 'a man' say's that is not degrading to themselves.
Rape - wrong
false rape- wrong
88

busybee,

19/12/2007 17:24:09
95- Mistakes and rapes are two different things. And although a false rape may ruin a mans life, being raped or sexually assaulted can also make you feel like your life is ruined.
89

Ken,

19/12/2007 17:24:26
#96 busy bee
Ok I accept you obvious strong views on the subject, what happened to you was wrong and the man in question should have been punished but that does give you theright to paste all claims of rape as genuine, not accpet that there are many false claims out there which could ruin the mans life. Maybe a more balanced view would be helpful.
90

busybee,

19/12/2007 17:28:51
Ken- I do not think all rape cases are genuine, and there are false claims... mostly with either crazy people or some people trying to get some sort of publicity, but because these false accusations exist, does not mean someone who was actually raped should not come forward. Why are you calling me a femenist? Granted I am happy to be a woman, and I don't quite take it as a negative, but I just do not like rapists. Lets leave it there.
91

GrahamL,

19/12/2007 17:30:15
#96 Obviously you'll be passionate about the subject, and I doubt you'll find anyone on this site that doesn't consider what happened to you both appalling, and a genuine assualt, and in those cases a prosecution should be brought.


The grey areas are where the alleged victim is unable to remember if they consented or not, or by the look of these proposals, if they did consent but were unable of thinking rationally. The burden of proof is on the man to:
a) ensure consent is given
b) assess whether the woman is in a fit state to give "real" consent, or if they're just giving drunken consent
To be able to be so drunk that you cannot be held responsible for your own actions is a huge change in the law. As has been pointed out this doesn't apply to any other crime, and only applies to one half of the couple in this case.

Of course, if we could change the culture to suggest that getting so drunk you can't remember anything and having sex with random people is a BAD thing. There'd be a lot fewer of these situations, and the authorities could get on with dealing with cases all involved were fully aware of what was happening. But that's for another day...
92

Allan(handofgod137),

19/12/2007 17:31:18
buybee, the "almost raped" gives away your feminazi status.
93

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 19/12/2007 17:33:00
99, you may feel for a while that it's ruined, but it wouldn't actually be. If a man is falsely accused, however, his life *is* ruined, for ever. I'd still rather be raped, however horrible it was, than be falsely accused.
94

busybee,

19/12/2007 17:34:00
What I posted was personally, but more to that, I am in a much better place than I was when the incident took place, and I am not ashamed anymore. And I think it is important for people (man or woman) to speak out against rape.
95

Shanny,

Glasgow 19/12/2007 17:38:13
I posted some 7 months ago on this subject. My 20 year old son was accused of rape after consensual sex. The girl had spent all day in his bed and left late at night when I returned home and forced the issue. The next day she decided she had been raped and went to to the Police. 4 Police came to our door and took my son away and subsequently charged him only for the Crown to drop the case 7 months later due to no evidence and differences in her statements. I seen my son go from a confident boy to a wreck and the damage to my health still continues. I found out she had claimed she was sexually assaulted before and that she lied, mothers lock up your sons, there are some crazy women out there who do terrible damage to genuine rape victims and the families of those falsely accused.
96

Ken,

19/12/2007 17:51:14
The article states,'But with no proposed relaxation of the need for corroboration, they doubt whether these reforms will significantly drive up the rape conviction rate'
Well, maybe this is fair - ish.
The problem with rape has always been corroboration. I for one cannot see how this can be overcome fairly and equally.
Answers on a postcard!
97

Pilrig,

Livingston 19/12/2007 17:56:04
80 - what is a p@nis ? Has the word 'penis' been deemed obscene ?
98

Pilrig,

Livingston 19/12/2007 17:58:41
91 - yes and the shameless hussies even partake of alchohol and dress immodestly. tut tut !
99

Pilrig,

Livingston 19/12/2007 18:00:24
95 - let me guess - you're a virgin !
100

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 19/12/2007 18:02:29
95, nope. I'm a realist. If I were forced to choose, I'd much rather have the temporary trauma of being raped, than have my life, and that of my family, destroyed for ever by a false accusation.
101

Ken,

19/12/2007 18:06:22
#108 etc
Yes, this forum did not let me spell p@nis! Strange for a paper that has journalists that are true dicks!
#110 !!!! however did you get that assumption. Would I rather be raped or falsy accused and ruin my life, well, yes!! Any female wishing to proceed :-0
102

Calum Crubag,

19/12/2007 18:07:36
The 'drunk' bit is ridiculous. How many of us have had drunken sex? What is 'drunk'? What if the man is drunk? How many of us 'ask' for sex? Are we meant to get written permission?
103

Ken,

19/12/2007 18:17:42
#113
Yes, I think so, also I understand that the womans mother has to be present during the act, along with her lawyer, incase she does not come! that will be an offence soon, and expect every man to be imprisoned.
Lets face it 'we' are all b@stards and deserve to be imprisoned all our lives. We kind of do it alreaday - its called marriage.
ps femanists - its a joke!! you know, or do you!
104

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 19/12/2007 18:19:02
I note that the man who was accused of raping a woman in McDonald's in Princes Street has been acquitted.

It sounds a fair verdict, but for the rest of his life (he's 20) he will be branded a rapist while the woman who, it seems, falsely accused him will be free to gloat and giggle for ever under the cover of anonymity.

He was the wronged party, but he suffers. She was the one who did wrong, but she gets off scot free.
105

Ken,

19/12/2007 18:23:50
#115,
just another excuse not to go into mcdonalds, if we did not have enough already.
106

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 19/12/2007 18:26:33
Note that't's pretty clear she lied - she claimed that he showed her the notes in his wallet, but the police found that he only had coins on him.

Will she now be be tried for perjury? I'm not holding my breath.
107

Pilrig,

Livingston 19/12/2007 18:38:20
112 - my sympathy re the 'p' word. Scotsperson censorship makes as much sense as Radio 1's. I got barred for using a certain obscene word beginning with 'c'. I used it on purpose for the sake of the debate, subsequently apologised to those offended and have abstained from using such language on threids thereafter. Still my postings mysteriously failed to appear on threids, whilst some posters got away scot-free with posting the most offensive nonsense (to me)albeit withoot sweiry-words.
Anyway lesson is that it pays not to swear on forums.
108

just chat,

london 19/12/2007 18:55:03
two cases of rape in england that both if i remember correctely around 77 one man wearing a gasman's hat knocked on a flat in hornsey telling the woman he needs to read her gas metter once inside he sticks a knife on her throut n rapes her he did this 3 yes three times after he was arrested n kept in castody for about a year HIS LORDSHIP in his wistom decided because his Irish g/f n the west indian comunity along withhis parents are sticking by him to give him another chance with a year SUSPENDED SENSENCE! another bloke is oxford went to a disco met this girl they spend the evening together n she went back tohis flat around 2 in the mornibf JUST FOR COFFEE of course nothing else

they spend the night together and in he morning SHE WAS SEEN BY A NEIBOROUGH kissing him good bye

by late morning she must a had a chance of heart went to the police complained she was raped and in the end the bloke was send to 8 years in prison

so whatever they do in Scotland i hope it will never be as bad as english law n the newspaper reporting the case when the man was given a year's suspended sentence said under the article

BUT OF COURSE HIS LORDSHIP IS "ALWAYS" RIGHT is this the kind of society we want?

i do agree with points 2 3 n 4 totally maybe with some modifications point 1 but to tell me that a woman gets drunk cause she feels like it has sex with someone n then complains she was raped (maybe he didn't perform to her satisfuction) and wants her revenge is a joke

rape is a very serious offence against both minors men n women and should be punishable accordingly but NO loopholes for some to pay very heavily n some to get away, what gives a judge the right to be above the law? and without strict quidelines they can do pretty much as they like anmd they do,

there MUST be a real indepented body NOT of so called professionals they all stick by each other anyway but by sensible ordinary people to be ale to get rid of a judge who does thigs as diabolical and
109

Eve,

Scotland 19/12/2007 19:08:00
#119 just chat: "The person has taken or been given alcohol or other substances" This includes date rape drugs which are sliped in to drinks.

Would you be suggesting if a woman had her attetion taken away from her drink for a few second and a guy sliped something in to her drink (it can be quickly done) and was later taken advatage of, then you'd argu that it was the womans wanted to be druged and rapet!!!



110

just chat,

london 19/12/2007 19:15:50
106# very well said mate nad the biggest problem is of course that a woman ANY woman can accuse anyone of rape, and if the accusation stcks the man is gone down his life ruined and all for nothing at the same time if the man is proved to be innocent nothing happens to the woman,

same as police officers who send many innocent to prison not just the Quildford 6 or the birmingham 4 many others too what do they do to them "officers" of the law we pay to protect us? they "really punish" them retire them with full pay, yet their innocent victims they have send to prison for nothing have lost the best years of their lives, because of course sometimes the police is under extreme n unfair pressure to get "results"

we can have a much fairer society if we all want to BUT our rullers do NOT want that as they want to be able to "bend" the law when is suits them, most police officers join the police wanting to improve society but the system does not allow them n in the endtheyjust go along with what they do not agree with
111

just chat,

19/12/2007 19:35:28
120# of course not i never said or suggested that at all, remember that so called date rape drugs stay in the persons blood for at least 72 hours, and how many women are kept prisoners by the rapist for that long? all i wanted to make clear is that NO man has a right to rape another person EVER BUT also NO woman should get away scot free after accusing n ruining somone's life for a serious crime the man NEVER COMMIDED where is the justice in that,

i happen to believe n very strongly that any person who forces another to do this MUST be punished severly but also anyone accusing someone falsely should also face the same stiff sentence, why should a woman be able to accuse a man of a crime that can send him to prison for life and when proved she lied just walk away free? send her to prison for life cause she tried to send an innocent man to prison for life and see how she likes it?

we are all humans
112

Ken,

19/12/2007 20:10:12
#122,
come on now, we are not all humans. The females are always right and have the law on their side, and the males are always wrong and have the law against them.
I contest that females are not human, they are from the planet zog. Designed to ensure sexual attraction with our earth males, but to try to conquest the earth. They are doing pretty well so far!
equal rights!! well maye that would be possible in the future if the men actaully stand up andcbe counted.
113

Eve,

Scotland 19/12/2007 21:14:47
#122 just chat: Good, I did say hope you didn't!!!

"so called date rape drugs stay in the persons blood for at least 72 hours" Really!!! That's NOT what the girly magazines say about the subject.

In fact giryl magazines that worn young women about drink spiking mention that some of these drugs don't show up in a test after the effect of the drug has worn up. I believe it was called Rupee (or something like that, don't have a clue how to spell it) and I heard it was one of the most common used.

Where do you get your data on how long date rape drugs stay in a woman system?

So tell me if the conviction of rape in Scotland is 4% and I don't think anyone believe that 96% of those who claim rape are lieing. How do you differentiate between those who lied and those who just some how didn't have enough evidence to convict for some reason!!!!!

Please let me know, cause you would seriously send 96% of rape victims to spend time in prison because there was a lack of proof or the their was bias in the jury as 40% of female juries were found to think a woman contribute to why she was rape.

114

Eve,

19/12/2007 21:17:28
#124: oops, I ment "worn off" NOT "worn up"

sorry #122 just chat
115

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/12/2007 21:26:43
Once more 3 clicks to sign in. My how the Johnston Press is spinning its ratings. More to come about that.

Anyway,

Are we not changing the law so that drunkeness is not an excuse in the courts? Is this a statistical exercise?

Feck me, I've shegged drunk women, I've shegged the bidie-in who was asleep (only once but she smiled at me the next morning).

I've shegged dugs when I was pee'ed and had to go to the special clinic. (the most common form of NSU was caused by broken capilliaries at The Knob's End pub)

Can we not all get a life and enjoy normal relationships between the sexes without resorting to this excretum tauri in the name of statistics which at present may reflect the truth?
116

just chat,

london 19/12/2007 21:27:09
122# Ken i do understand why you feel like this but believe me is NOT as one sided as you may think, is that the "law" is applied very harshly some cases n NOT at all in other cases, first did you see the channel 4 documentary "prostitute"? few years ago? a 14 or 15 year old girl was picked up on her way from school not willingly pushed into a car oo her way home she was living in a house for kids that either run away or have nowhere to go, after been kept for a week there n of course given drugs n forced to have sex with many men there, she was taken to bayswater to work as a prostitute she was repeatetly beaten and drugged up to make her work for "her" pimp she had a child after n did run away many times BUT where can she go WHO WILL GIVE HER HELP? no one people are afraid of PIMPS so she runs away she still has to work the streets to support herself pimps know all the areas in the uk girls opperate she was tracked down fast beaten up n taken back several times she had teeth broken in the end she lost the will to fight n was their "woman"

you really think the police could NOT stop prostitution and take all the pimps out in a day? if there was the political will to do so? same with drug pushing and all the "sauna" places that keep so many girls there to work as prostitutes all against their will?

wake up mate this is a nasty nasty world do u really believe a girl ANY girl would go out in the cold n dark risking her life n health to "earm" money her pimp money? and he will beat hell out of her occasionally to keep her "under" control they take drugs to blank their minds out so they can do what they hate i seen both sides of the coin n women do NOT get a better deal that we do

is just very very unevenly applied that's all as a very innocent youngster in the 60s in Nottingham i seen things that made me cry all night n felt sick that i couldn't do anything about them, is NOTHING I HATE more than a man forcing a woman not just to have sex with him but worse
117

just chat,

london 19/12/2007 21:51:57
124# am sure is more that 4% who are telling the truth cause it must be a humiliating feeling for any woman to go to the police n claim rape, and i never suggested that because the man was not found quilty the woman is automatically quilty of lying and should be punished accordingly,

what i did suggest maybe not clearly is that when it is proven that a woman deliberately lied she should be punished accordingly, as for rape drugs all i know is what i seen from TV documentaries am No expert,

am not anti female but am not anti male either, i seen both sides n have been on the wrong end of a woman's fury when she gets niddled by a refusal and is very scary cause she will make a man do whatever she wants if she thretent a man to scream rape if a man don't do as she wishes,

the fact is most people are decent sure but also scared to stand up to injustices evensomeone breaks into your home while u at sleepn if you fight back n he gets injured you are done,

in NY i once read of a girl been rapes in the fron of the shop by 2 men 3 IN THE AFTERNOON n even it was 65 witnesses NO one went to help that poor girl FOR that you have to thank the "law" help the girl how when u cannot attack the rapist as you be then get done for assult
118

Boab,

Glasgow 19/12/2007 22:18:48
#51 Neanderthal: You stated that men in the USA are unfairly expelled from college and thrown in prison due to false rape allegations. I was merely pointing out this was a load of crap and challenging you to produce a single statistic to prove this, which you can't. I'm not going to Google it!

I take your point about men and women deserving equal protection from the law, though.
119

Sandi,

San Diego 19/12/2007 23:10:43
#88 Neanderthal,

You are indeed well named.

Of course it is wrong to falsely accuse anyone of any crime, rape included. As it happens, in the Duke case, I never believed the boys were guilty.

Most here seem to think that rape is just going a wee bit too far after a few drinks. Not at all. Rape is a crime of violence. It is not a sex crime, although sexual intercourse is the weapon used.

Most women who are raped are not drunk and have not been drinking. Those situations would be "date rape", which is much harder to prove for all the reasons already mentioned.

So, just to make it easier for you, let's picture a different weapon, a knife. Seeing as you seem to think all rapes involve drunk women, is it OK to stab a drunk woman with a knife? If she doesn't specifically say "no" and kick and fight and scream does that make it OK?

Whether you like it or not, the vast majority of rapes happen to women.

120

Gecks,

Outside Los Angeles 19/12/2007 23:24:01
Ok, I'm going to say this again....and I am saying this as a woman...."Women will ALWAYS be second class citizens until we take resposiblity for our own actions and stop hiding behind our "skirts"!!! Everybody knows that when you drink, you losen your inhibitions, and when you do that, you sometimes end up doing things that you would not do sober. How can a man be held responsible if they were both drinking if the woman is not just as responsible. I can tell you this, I have a nice scar on my upper lip where I was hit because I said no. It reminds me everytime I look in the mirror of what could have happened if I had been drunker than I was. I reported him to the police and he plead guilty to assault and sexual battery. He got 2 years probation and 50 hours community service. I think jail time would have been unfair since he was just a drunk, if not drunker, than I was. (Drunk or not, no need for violence) I just really feel that women should take responsiblity for our actions.

Gecks
121

the fat knackered Aussie chef who only body surfs,

dicky beach 19/12/2007 23:45:25
no means no and if she's too pished to figure it out for herself the robust scottish male must take that as an implied no. Much better to wake up in the morning and decide then...stops you both from doing something you probably wished you hadn't. And who knows - when you're sober you might both actually like each other
122

,

19/12/2007 23:49:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
123

dunnoony,

20/12/2007 00:21:14
@urban guerrilla,

luckily for my acquaintances, i do not know anybody who has been raped. but what i read and hear about those who have been, nobody ever recovered from it. right fine, a man wrongly accused will probably have this stigma for a long while and see their lives shattered but do you really think anybody can get over rape?? quite a number even seem to take their own lives after such an unspeakable crime.
124

allymax,

upvinesass, scotland. 20/12/2007 01:17:58
The Law Commission's recommendations, (defining consent), are far too skewed to promote higher rape convictions. I feel the Law Commission have been bullied by the harmman's, the angiolini's, and the baroness-scotland's to get the conviction rates up.

I don't think this is the right way to approach such an important debate/discussion area of Scottish Law/society. They've began their efforts by looking at the effect, not the cause. I cetrtainly would not endorse this Law Commission's recommendations, nor agree with their findings. They said,

"It may be that the jury bring in their own ideas about consent, so what we have done here is to bring in a detailed model of consent. We hope that by offering a legal definition of consent, it may help to change social attitudes towards it ."

Seems to me 'it may be the jury bring in their own ideas about consent', correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that what jury are supposed to do? If we let the 'elites' like angiolini et al make our laws then we definately will have 1000, (and more), rapists in Scotland every year.

We as Scots have over 3000 years of celtic pedigree; we have managed to live fairly with each other from clan times, through landed gentry/county council times, but it's only in the last 300 years we've been fighting each other for reasons laid down by the english crown. Let's get back to our own nationstate, let our own government make good sensible laws that will not label us the rape capital of the world; and have us fighting between ourselves over their semantics of our laws.

I find the way this Law Commission has performed has been incumbent of Bliarite attitudes. In-deed, they are all chosen from Bliarite quangos. Therefore, I shouldn't expect anything less from a New Labour Law Commission. Flawed, skewed, and unrepresentable of Scottish people and society. More New Labour rules just for the sake of more quangos/recommendati


ons.

Getting back to the recommendations, 10 years for telling
125

allymax,

upvinesass, scotland. 20/12/2007 01:23:40
The Law Commission's recommendations, (defining consent), are far too skewed to promote higher rape convictions. I feel the Law Commission have been bullied by the harmman's, the angiolini's, and the baroness-scotland's to get the conviction rates up.
I don't think this is the right way to approach such an important debate/discussion area of Scottish Law/society. They've began their efforts by looking at the effect, not the cause. I cetrtainly would not endorse this Law Commission's recommendations, nor agree with their findings. They said,
"It may be that the jury bring in their own ideas about consent, so what we have done here is to bring in a detailed model of consent. We hope that by offering a legal definition of consent, it may help to change social attitudes towards it ."
Seems to me 'it may be the jury bring in their own ideas about consent', correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that what jury are supposed to do? If we let the 'elites' like angiolini et al make our laws then we definately will have 1000, (and more), rapists in Scotland every year.
We as Scots have over 3000 years of celtic pedigree; we have managed to live fairly with each other from clan times, through landed gentry/county council times, but it's only in the last 300 years we've been fighting each other for reasons laid down by the english crown. Let's get back to our own nationstate, let our own government make good sensible laws that will not label us the rape capital of the world; and have us fighting between ourselves over their semantics of our laws.
I find the way this Law Commission has performed has been incumbent of Bliarite attitudes. In-deed, they are all chosen from Bliarite quangos. Therefore, I shouldn't expect anything less from a New Labour Law Commission. Flawed, skewed, and unrepresentable of Scottish people and society. More New Labour rules just for the sake of more quangos/recommendations.
Getting back to the recommendations, 10 years for telling a dirty joke?
Am
126

BMCG,

20/12/2007 02:31:47
One issue yet to be noted in this thread is the fact that when the sexual act is removed from rape it becomes an assault with power as the motive. The perpetrator is a bully exerting power.

It appears feminism continues to thrive in the USA but the issue is really gender neutral – it is a power issue not penis exertion nor penis envy.
127

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 20/12/2007 02:52:28
Hello Busybee,

Re your 131.

You really need to go back and re-read my posts, in their entirety, slowly and forthrightly, and I must add WITHOUT your predisposition to ASSUME something which is NOT being said!!!!

I did NOT say that all women are drunk when raped. Go back and re-read my posts, I NEVER said that to you. I am emphasizing drunkenness, because the Scottish Adjudicators who redefined the rapes law criteria, emphasized drunkenness as the primary causal factor in that type of rape.

Alcohol IS the key factor in the 'date rape' style of 'rapes' on Campuses across the USA, which is directly applicable to the new Scottish laws, as the Re-Definers made drunkenness the MAINSTAY of their argumentation.

The key derivative of their argumentation, is precisely what you skirt so baldly and refuse to address fully and openly: that a woman who is drunk is NOT held to the SAME level of legal responsibility for her actions, as is the man.

Factually speaking, the Re-Definers have taken to heart the American Paradigm, totally abrogating ALL responsibility of any woman in such a circumstance of drunken sexual interaction.

Again I must point out to you that such a ruling and such a set of rules, DESTROYS the entire concept of the Rule of Law and Equal Treatment Under the Law.

This is NOT rocket science here!!

Nowhere in my argumentation have I ever diminished the horrific nature of 'real rapes'. Nowhere in my explanatories have I devalued a single woman's innate worth or right to respect of person and psyche.

The entire theme of my posts is EQUITY UNDER THE LAW.

Have I done this to only protect men?

NO! Perish the thought please Busybee (I like your cognomen by the by, I've always wanted to have a 3 hive Apiary, but I digress).

I put forth these facts, these logical conundrums for those in your camp, precisely to point out that unless ALL OF US are held to the same standard, the result is that what happens in violent rape cases (such as t
128

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 20/12/2007 02:53:43
139 cont.
the result is that what happens in violent rape cases (such as the swine who intended to do just that to you) is NECESSARILY DEVALUED!!!

Please read that last paragraph again. When false accusations are made, either in supposed instances of date rape or violent rape, the women making such false accusations DEVALUE the lives and horrific experiences of women who HAVE IN REALITY, been raped!!!!

An excellent mini treatise on this very issue has been written as part of a monograph by Professor Christina Hoff Summers, entitled "Who Stole Feminism? How Women have Betrayed Women" (an excellent read and truly well 'footed', I highly recommend this text for everyone-and you can find copies in used book stores or online at Amazon).

She illustrates quite clearly, that Radical Feminists have so devalued the whole concept of rape, redefining it and redefining it again, ad infinitum, until many leaders in the Rad Fem Movement have openly declared that consensual sex between any man and any women, INCLUDING husbands and wives, ARE INDEED RAPE!

The nature and element of Consent, has been totally destroyed and removed by such 'leaders' of the Rad Fem Movement, because males are involved (lesbian sex is not seen as rape, regardless of the format of the intimacy by these same 'leaders).

What I am attempting to stress here, is that we all hang together or we hang separately, but we WILL hang, if we let the numpties (I love that word, but don't really have a fine grasp of the noun. "Dweebs" would seem to be a close American counterpart) have their way, and strip the law of INTENT and CULPABILITY.

There will be ZERO Equity in the law and the result will be that men will stop trusting women, stop trusting them with their hearts, their thoughts, their dreams, their fears, and their hopes. The Rad Fem women who are pushing this Politically Correct nonsense will have accomplished their task; creating a wall of distrust, suspicion, dislike, and then hatred, betwee
129

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 20/12/2007 02:55:26
140 cont.

There will be ZERO Equity in the law and the result will be that men will stop trusting women, stop trusting them with their hearts, their thoughts, their dreams, their fears, and their hopes. The Rad Fem women who are pushing this Politically Correct nonsense will have accomplished their task; creating a wall of distrust, suspicion, dislike, and then hatred, between men and women.

This is currently the situation in America and it is NOT a good environment for anyone.

Cheers from the Rockies
130

Annlass,

Giffnock 20/12/2007 04:15:33
Rape is a VIOLENT crime! When it is recognized as such and not reduced to a sexual aggravation sentences will be imposed on perpetrators equivalent to those who receive jail time for committing "Dangerous bodily harm", "Grievous bodily harm" or even attempted murder if the rape is committed in the presence of a dangerous weapon.
131

zigzag,

CANADA 20/12/2007 04:32:40
Assault with a overly friendly weapon is still rape no matter how hard it is.
132

Kobi.,

20/12/2007 08:50:44
#131

"Whether you like it or not, the vast majority of rapes happen to women."

Actually, not quite. In the US, most rapes are committed on men. Nowhere else though.
133

Mel999,

London 20/12/2007 14:58:39
Hang on - number 2 implies that so long as I agreed to sex earlier, it's OK for a guy to have sex with me while I'm UNCONSCIOUS?????
Please somebody tell me this is wrong!
Being unconscious should be deemed to mean that I'm not consenting to anything being done to me.
Mel
134

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 02/01/2008 12:48:58
Reading some of these comments has been truly unnerving....there aint half some very creepy people come out of the woodwork once the subject of 'rape' comes up......

 

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