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Published Date: 18 February 2008
TAXPAYERS were last night warned they could be saddled with billions of pounds of bad debt for years to come after Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, announced that Northern Rock would be nationalised.
Only a month after declaring his preference for keeping the ailing bank in the private sector, Mr Darling said it would be temporarily brought under public control, triggering anger from politicians and private investors.

George Osborne, the shad
ow chancellor, said that "the government's reputation for economic competence has died".

At a surprise press conference yesterday, Mr Darling said two private-sector bids for the bank – including one led by Virgin boss Sir Richard Branson – did not offer the taxpayer sufficient value for money. He claimed that by taking Northern Rock, once the UK's fifth largest mortgage lender, into short-term public ownership, the taxpayer's burden would be protected.

However, this claim was cast into doubt by experts who questioned whether a publicly run Northern Rock would be able to recover amid the global credit crunch that is threatening to trigger recession.

The move was seen by critics as a humiliating climbdown by Mr Darling, who had spent months trying to secure a private sector solution for the crisis-hit bank.

Sir Richard Branson, whose Virgin Money Group consortium was the front-runner to buy the bank ahead of Northern Rock's own management, said the move was "not the right solution".

But, at a meeting yesterday morning with officials from the Bank of England and the Financial Services Authority, Mr Darling and Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, decided nationalisation – the first such move since the 1970s and the biggest since the 1940s – was the only option.

Mr Darling, who will bring in emergency legislation to allow the move to go ahead quickly, said he was confident Northern Rock could be sold swiftly, despite analysts' scepticism, and denied it was a government failure for which he should resign.

He has appointed Ron Sandler, the former Lloyd's of London boss, to be executive chairman of the bank during its period in public ownership, and said the government would not interfere in its day-to-day management.

Mr Darling said: "It is better for the government to hold on to Northern Rock for a temporary period and, as and when market conditions improve, the value of Northern Rock will grow and therefore the taxpayer will gain.

"The long-term ownership of this bank must lie in the private sector.

"Northern Rock will continue operating on a commercial basis. It will be open for business as usual (this] morning. Savers' and depositors' money remains safe. Borrowers will continue to make payments in the normal way."

Shares in Northern Rock will be suspended before the London Stock Exchange opens today.

Under nationalisation rules, shareholders will be offered compensation for their holding, at a level set by a government-appointed independent panel, Mr Darling said.

John McFall, chairman of the Treasury Select Committee, said: "The biggest issue is the safeguarding of taxpayers' money. If nationalisation saves that money, that has to be the correct step in the long term."

However, Sir Richard said: "We have tried our best to save Northern Rock and the jobs of the staff. We put all the resources of Virgin's senior management team on this for five months.

"We believe nationalisation is not the right answer and a commercial solution would have been the best way forward."

Commenting on the timing of the announcement, Philip Hammond, shadow chief secretary to the Treasury, said: "It does seem odd to make it on a Sunday afternoon when parliament is sitting (the next day]."

Mr Darling said UK taxpayers, now subsidising the bank in loans and guarantees to other lenders to the tune of about £55 billion, would not lose out as the money would be recovered on its sale.

But Mr Sandler said the bank would have to be cut back to a sustainable size. However, union officials, who he will meet today during a visit to Newcastle to meet the bank's management and staff, fear this will mean job cuts.

Northern Rock's new boss said the changes would have no impact on the guarantees made to lenders, or the government-backed support for savers' deposits, adding: "It is business as usual."

But Matthew Sinclair, policy analyst for the Taxpayers' Alliance, said:

"The government has left the taxpayer saddled with billions of risky debt that no-one else would touch. Taxpayers could now end up paying a very high price for the government's incompetence."

He said while a complete collapse was highly unlikely, billions of pounds of public money may have to be spent propping up the ailing business. "The problems making it difficult for Northern Rock are not likely to go away soon. The credit crunch isn't going away anytime soon.

"I think we're looking at years rather than months before the bank can be put back into the private sector."

He also questioned how well the bank would be run, adding: "How much political interference (will] there be when it comes to making big decisions?"

Vince Cable, the Liberal Democrats' Treasury spokesman, said the right decision had been taken "belatedly". He added: "The important thing now is the government has to immediately establish what the problems are with this bank."

However, Mr Osborne said: "Gordon Brown has dithered his way to the disaster of nationalisation. Now the taxpayer will bear the full risk of lending £100 billion of mortgages in an uncertain housing market. We will not back nationalisation. We will not help Gordon Brown take this country back to the 1970s."

Robin Ashby, of the Northern Rock Small Shareholders Group, said he was "shocked and appalled" by the decision. He added: "I thought that there was a good offer made by the management of Northern Rock as recently as Friday and that seems to have been brushed to one side with this rush into macho politics, which is going to do irreparable damage to Britain's reputation as a financial-services sector."

The failed bids

THE new boss of a Virgin-run Northern Rock (NR) would have been Jayne-Anne Gadhia, 46, the chief executive of Virgin Money, who is based in Edinburgh.

The Virgin brand was seen to be a major benefit of the bid – the Northern Rock brand was set to be ditched in favour of Virgin Money, as the NR brand would have been damaged by the fiasco.

Supporters of Virgin's bid also pointed to the fact that Virgin had vowed to pay back £11 billion of NR's £26 billion loans from the Bank of England immediately.

But critics, including the two leading hedge funds which in total hold a stake of about 20 per cent in NR, said Branson's bid was "cheeky", trying to get NR on the cheap.

NR's in-house team had sweetened its bid terms to try to pip Virgin at the 11th hour.

The team's final proposal was understood to have effectively offered the government a stake of more than 10 per cent in the bank. The aim was to ensure the taxpayer could "share in the upside" of any successful turnaround, and thereby deflect criticism that Branson or another outsider could make a killing at the public's expense.

But it is felt one major weakness of the in-house solution was that it was understood to be proposing a smaller capital injection into Northern Rock.

Firm reverses trend of sell-offs across all sectors of industry

Northern Rock stands out as a rare reversal in a steady stream of public sell-offs since the 1980s.

It breaks a trend of privatisations ranging from British Gas to air traffic control begun under the Conservatives and continued under Labour since 1997.

In 1977, James Callaghan, the then prime minister, used the Aircraft and Shipbuilding Industries Act to merge several businesses into British Aerospace and British Shipbuilders.

British Aircraft Corporation, Hawker Siddeley Aviation, Hawker Siddeley Dynamics and Prestwick-based Scottish Aviation joined together to become British Aerospace.

In 1980, the British Aerospace Act made British Aerospace a plc, the government selling more than half of its shares in 1981. Most of British Aerospace later became BAE Systems.

Scottish shipbuilders were particularly affected by the 1977 nationalisation. They included Ailsa Shipbuilding Company in Troon, John Brown & Company in Clydebank, Ferguson Shipbuilders in Port Glasgow, Govan Shipbuilders, Hall Russell & Company in Aberdeen, Scott Lithgow in Greenock, Robb Caledon Shipbuilders in Leith and Dundee, and Yarrow Shipbuilders in Scotstoun.

British Shipbuilders was privatised in 1983 under the terms of the British Shipbuilders Act.

Since then there has been a steady stream of public sell-offs, from British Gas to air traffic control. The most recent near-nationalisation took form in 2001 when Labour put Railtrack into administration, eventually selling it to Network Rail. It is technically a private-sector company, but has no shareholders.

Tristan Stewart-Robertson

Rock saga is set to run and run as legal challenges loom

POLITICAL and legal rows are now set to erupt in the wake of the government's decision to nationalise stricken Northern Rock.

The move, which will effectively wipe out recovery hopes for the bank's shareholders, will draw down intense political fire, both on Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling, the Prime Minister's hapless successor as Chancellor. And it opens the door to a battle in the courts similar to that over the nationalisation of Railtrack.

With less than a month to the Budget – scheduled for 12 March – the government's borrowing targets have already been blasted apart. Taking all of the bank's business on to its books at a time when the economy is slowing and repossessions rising leaves the government in the direct line of fire for every redundancy and every foreclosure that Northern Rock – or "National Rock" as it could now be known – makes to get its house back in order.

And the move is set to provoke a furore across the financial-services sector.

The rejection is wider than just of Richard Branson's Virgin Group and the in-house management team, and also includes Royal Bank of Scotland, Barclays and other banks that were standing by with plans to convert some £25 billion of Northern Rock's loans into bonds.

Nationalisation has been hanging over the bank since news leaked in September of its borrowing of emergency funds from the Bank of England. The news sparked a dramatic run, with queues of depositors forming outside the bank to withdraw their savings. It was the first run on a British bank for more than a century.

The bank has since been propped up with a series of government guarantees running to £55 billion and shares in Northern Rock have collapsed by more than 90 per cent. They closed on Friday at just 63p, pricing the company at only £446 million.

There is wide respect for the new man at the helm of the bank, Ron Sandler. But the immediate worry for the government is the prospect of a legal challenge questioning its intervention.

THAT challenge is set to come from Northern Rock's two biggest shareholders, SRM Global and RAB Capital.

Together, they invested a total of £150 million for a 20 per cent stake. The paper value of their stake has now slumped to just £80 million and the funds have a fiduciary duty to protect their own investors.

SRM, which controls 12 per cent of the company, had thrown its support behind the in-house management rescue and its chief executive John Wood has made clear their position.

"We are prepared to reject nationalisation," he said ahead of yesterday's announcement. "We are prepared to go to court and to Europe if necessary. We are prepared to pursue this to the bitter end."

MR WOOD has already written to Mr Darling saying that the government's decision to treat the bail-out of the bank as state aid is "misconceived".

SRM has commissioned law firm White Case to examine the state-aid ruling. The firm, with analyst Tim Congdon, a former Treasury adviser, argues that assistance by the government to Northern Rock should not fall under the European Union's state-aid rules, but instead should be treated as a normal central-bank intervention in the financial markets.

They contrast the actions of the government and Bank of England with those of the European Central Bank (ECB), arguing: "Spanish banks are borrowing up to £33 billion from the ECB … At no time has it been suggested such measures would amount to state aid."

Mr Darling had a deadline of 17 March to choose between the bids for Northern Rock and nationalisation. That was the date by which he had to submit a restructuring plan to the EU for state-aid approval.

Other legal action by shareholders could centre on compensation terms – hardly the priority of Mr Brown or Mr Sandler at the moment.

Bill Jamieson

STANDING UP TO INDUSTRY

RON Sandler is best known as the man who led the rescue of Lloyd's of London in the 1990s.

Born in Rhodesia, he was also appointed by Gordon Brown to review the savings industry in 2001.

The resulting report called for sweeping changes in medium and long-term pension schemes.

Mr Sandler, 55, criticised the financial services industry for complicated products that had high charges and relatively poor returns. His findings put him at odds with some in the life and pensions field, but gained him respect elsewhere as a man prepared to stand up to the industry.

Cambridge-educated with an MBA from Stanford University in California, he was a management consultant and then a money-broker.

He joined Lloyd's in 1995, becoming chief executive a few months later.

He was brought in to NatWest on a £450,000 salary to repel a takeover in 1999.

However, Royal Bank of Scotland won.

SPURNED SUITOR

FAMOUS for his flamboyant and competitive style, Sir Richard Branson has long been the face of the Virgin brand. He started in business at just 15, publishing a magazine called Student. His retail chain, Virgin Records, was sold last year. The 57-year-old father-of-two has an estimated net worth of £4 billion.

'BULLET-PROOF PLAN'

PAUL Thompson, 45, is behind the rejected management rescue bid for Northern Rock. Born and raised in Yorkshire, he was drafted in to the bank in January as a non-executive director and would have become chief executive if his rescue bid, supported by major shareholders in the bank, had gained Treasury backing.

"We have a bullet-proof plan", he said earlier this month.

AT CENTRE OF CRISIS

Alistair Darling MP was appointed as Chancellor of the Exchequer on 28 June, 2007, succeeding Gordon Brown when he became Prime Minister.

He attended Loretto School, Musselburgh, and studied law at Aberdeen University before working as a solicitor in Edinburgh.

He has been at the centre of the Northern Rock crisis since he guaranteed all deposits held by the bank.

Q & A: ROCK CRISIS

How did Northern Rock get into this trouble?

The company fuelled its growth by borrowing most of its cash for mortgage lending in money markets – relying relatively little on savers' deposits. In the summer credit crunch, markets were gripped by fears over potential losses on bonds based on high-risk US mortgages. Banks keen to hoard cash would only lend to each other at higher rates – and Northern Rock's borrowing costs rocketed. Northern Rock also raised funds by parcelling up its mortgage debts and selling them on in a process called securitisation.

But in the panic over the US situation, investors were turning away from what were now considered risky investments. With the funding taps turned off, the firm was forced to turn to the Bank of England for an emergency bail-out in September, triggering the UK's first bank run for nearly 150 years.

What is nationalisation?

Nationalisation means the government taking a business from its current shareholders into public ownership. Over the past 20 years, it has been more usual for businesses to move the other way, from public to private hands.

What happens now?

Emergency legislation will be published today and then rushed through parliament.

Do civil servants know how to run a bank?

The Treasury won't be bussing coach-loads of officials up to Northern Rock's headquarters in Newcastle upon Tyne to take over the running of the mortgage lender. The Chancellor said yesterday that Northern Rock would be run on an "arm's length commercial basis". This means the business would be publicly owned, but run by a new management team. Former Lloyd's of London chief executive Ron Sandler will take over as executive chairman.

How long would the bank be nationalised for?

Alistair Darling insisted yesterday that nationalisation would be "temporary", stressing that the bank would be "moved back into the private sector at the earliest and most prudent opportunity". The government does want to get the bank off its hands as quickly as possible. But most of Rolls-Royce was in public ownership for 16 years after the bank carried out an emergency nationalisation in 1971.

What will happen to people's savings?

The government has already stepped in to guarantee savers' deposits. For other banks, the Financial Services Compensation Scheme guarantees only the first £35,000 of savings – so technically the money is actually safer with Northern Rock.

Would savers be able to get their money straightaway?

Yes. The day-to-day running of the business will continue as normal. This is why – if a private sector solution falls through – nationalisation would be the preferred option to administration, where savers' deposits would be frozen while a sell-off of the bank's mortgage assets to get the best deal for creditors is carried out.

What happens for people with mortgages with Northern Rock?

They would continue to pay their mortgages in the normal way, although if they fell behind on your payments and were repossessed, their house would now be ultimately owned by the government.

What happens to shareholders?

Investors will be offered compensation for their shares set by a government-appointed arbitration panel which decides on a fair price.

Shareholders, including two hedge funds, could launch legal action if they are unhappy with the amount offered.

How much have shareholders lost?

In February last year, shares in Northern Rock peaked at £12.51 – giving it a stock market value of nearly £5.3 billion. Since the crisis, shares have plummeted to stand at 90p on Friday – valuing the firm at £375 million.

How much does Northern Rock owe?

Since September, the lender has borrowed an estimated £25 billion from the Bank of England.

What is the potential liability to the taxpayer?

So far the taxpayer has guaranteed £55 billion to cover Northern Rock, but some commentators have suggested the real total of all liabilities could end up being as high as £100 billion. That will only have to be paid if there is a complete run on the bank, there is no private buyer and the whole edifice collapses.

Will there be any job losses?

This is unclear at the moment. Financial experts were expecting Northern Rock to be slimmed down if it was taken over by another company. Job losses are unlikely to be as severe under nationalisation but some will probably go over time.

Why couldn't the government find a private buyer?

Sir Richard Branson came forward with an offer through his company, Virgin Money. It looked a possibility for a while, but it was very unattractive for shareholders, offering a deeply discounted rights issue which would have cost them £500 million. As most of the shares are owned by big, institutional corporate shareholders, the pressure from other financial institutions was intense for a rejection of this offer.

There were two other possible options, one from Olivant, vehicle of banker Luqman Arnold, the man who turned around Abbey National, but this avenue closed when Olivant pulled out earlier this month. The other alternative came from an "in house" bid from Northern Rock managers but in the end, ministers decided that neither the Virgin bid nor the Northern proposal was good enough to protect the interests of taxpayers and this was why Northern Rock was nationalised.

Could this have been avoided?

Yes, but only if Northern Rock had adopted a safer strategy.













The full article contains 3386 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 18 February 2008 12:41 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Economic indicators
 
1

Tris,

Dundee 18/02/2008 00:14:13
The N word!!!!!!

What a mess.

Is this man ever going to get anything right?

Mind you George Osbourne had absolutely nothing intelligent to say when he was asked what his solution was. Nothing new there.

Budget day should be a laugh with this comedian in charge. Can't wait.

2

Jimmy the Pie,

18/02/2008 00:16:18
Not really a surprise this.
Leave an idiot in charge of the economy and this is what you get.
Time to go it alone.
3

,

18/02/2008 00:55:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
4

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 18/02/2008 01:03:51
What did you all expect,?..a..'Christmas Tree',?
Come on! we now it would be become a political 'Whitewash'!
We dont all live in 'Muppet Land' you know!
5

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 18/02/2008 01:05:35
What did you all expect,?..a..'Christmas Tree',?
Come on! we all knew, it would be become a political'
'Whitewash'!
We dont all live in 'Muppet Land' you know!
6

Scott Webb*,

18/02/2008 01:06:33
This con will make Enron look like a concert cancellation :)
7

Jim A,

18/02/2008 01:22:44
So I take it there won't be much in the line of tax rebates this year then. Ah well same old, same old.
8

Vivas,

Edinburgh 18/02/2008 01:33:35
At least in Jack and the beanstalk, the halfwitted hero finished up with some golden eggs for his efforts.

But THIS halfwit has delivered us a bust bank !

You couldn't make it up ...
9

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 18/02/2008 01:37:07
Perhaps Mr Darling as the new head of Northern Rock should pop down to his local branch and withdraw a personality for himself.
10

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 18/02/2008 01:45:16
Can't Labour get anything right ?

Time for them to leave perhaps ?
11

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 04:48:43
Where's George Foulkes when you need him - send Foulkes in
12

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 04:54:31
Darling/Brown = Hugo Chavez = we will all end up being moved from our urban areas and into agrarian production via re-education.

Nothing like your elected representatives potentially saddling the people that elected them with upwards of 100 billion of debt.

Nice to see that the elected representatives are still swindling the public out of taxpayers money via their expenses.

GET RID OF THEM

13

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

Not a bad pay deal though 18/02/2008 05:00:26
Nice to see the Lbour govt not rushing into anything to extreme in terms of the pay awards for the NR team

"Ron Sandler will become executive chairman of the bank and be paid an initial £90,000 a month for his services. He will be assisted by Ann Godbehere, a Canadian accountant and insurance executive, who is to be paid £75,000 a month"

"the government's reputation for economic competence has died".


No doubt someone in the Labour party will be taking a chunk of those salaries on the side!!
14

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 05:01:16
Privately, senior government advisers say that it is expected to be years before market conditions will allow a sale.

15

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 05:01:50
“Gordon Brown has dithered his way to the disaster of nationalisation. Now the taxpayer will bear the full risk of lending £100 billion of mortgages in an uncertain housing market. We will not back nationalisation. We will not help Gordon Brown take this country back to the 1970s.”
16

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 05:03:49
So the private equity boys move in with their zero tax to the state allowance - disgraceful, inept, shocking, vile, incompetent, tragic ........................


"Bankers said last night that nationalisation was likely to result in Northern Rock eventually being broken up and sold off in pieces, rather than as a going concern. To avoid giving it an unfair advantage over its high-street rivals, the nationalised bank will not be able to actively seek new customers, so will slowly decrease in size until the only bidders likely to be interested in it are private equity firms who buy individual books of mortgages but have little interest in running a viable regional bank"

17

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 05:05:31
I suppose it is easier to steal from a public company than a private one though. Smart move by the Labour party.
18

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 05:06:32
Thats should have read government owned company rather than public company. I'm getting confused as I thought we didn't have govt owned companies anymore!!
19

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 05:10:52
The thing with this is that the govt will have this additional 100 billion debt on its balance sheet that will effectively put any losses on a timescale over a number of years - risk, risk, risk.

Incompetence on a truly unimaginable scale.
20

Royster,

18/02/2008 05:49:43
The scandal is not nationalisation, it's that shareholders are getting a payout for a company which is bust. The government was right to bail out the bank and protect people's deposits and it is right to take it into public ownership and wait for credit conditions to improve. It can then sell it for a good price and get back taxpayers' money. The private sector bids were based on taxpayers giving them loads of dosh (ie we take the risk and they take the profit). As for the shareholders, you make more money when times are good (dividends and share price appreciation) but if you back a management which puts everything on the 2.30 at Kempton Park, then perhaps you should lose your money.
21

Pilrig.,

Livingston 18/02/2008 06:13:09
55 billion quid of our money. Nice one Broon & Darling. If there's a solitary crumb of comfort it's that that twit Branson didnae get his hands on oor cash.

4 months of inflation-bustin costs of living in a row, what's the odds on this pair of chocolate fireguards surviving the next UK election ?

55 billion quid proping up a failed building society. And to think so folk grudge a few million quid spent on Gaelic !
22

Banoo20,

Glasgow 18/02/2008 07:26:24
Not so sure that Branson taking on this responibility rather that us "common" people might not have been better - hate to think we are going to pay for their mistakes.
23

Hermitage,

Edinburgh 18/02/2008 07:48:23
With Scots Brown and Darling in charge, what else can be expected?

So much for the much-vaunted Scottish business accumen etc, etc.

24

conservative,

Fife 18/02/2008 07:55:51
'The taxpayer will get his money back on the sale of Northern Rock'. Oh yes - a bit like British Leyland eh?

What a fool of a chancellor but Broon just got out in time so we all know whose fault it all is.
25

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 18/02/2008 08:01:39
Anyone investing in the stocks and shares of a listed company should always heed the warning:
The value of your shares can go down, as well as up!
26

eric,

18/02/2008 08:04:02
Where did he do his training!
27

Reckless,

Economic collapse 18/02/2008 08:06:35
You people voted NuLab for 10 years, so you deserve everything that's coming.

The next 2 or 3 years is going to be extremely difficut for most of us. Luckily, I've paid my mortgage off, and my savings are in something other than funny money (fiat currency).
28

Reckless,

7/7: MI5 did it. 18/02/2008 08:08:21
Liability is £3,500 per taxpayer. Keep on supporting Nu Lab, you goons.
29

thinking,

Scotland 18/02/2008 08:12:25
#4 'Broon inherited a fantastically strong financial plan from the Tories in 1997'
I agree with you, it's officially documented.
He made everything seem as if he was doing well as Chancellor but what he really did was sell our gold, borrow heavily and bring in 'hidden' taxes
30

Reckless,

RonPaul2008 18/02/2008 08:13:52
Ron Paul will sort out the world's economic problems.

The Fed and BoE are private companies. They create money out of thin air. No gold backed currency. Gordon Brown gave our gold away for $275/toz in 1999. Now worth more than $900/toz.

They're all criminals. Guess who hold's the EU's gold reserves. GERMANY! When the EU collapses, they'll have our wealth, and we'll be dirt poor for generations to come. Still think NuLab and the EU are good?
31

Paul Spencer,

Glasgow 18/02/2008 08:15:21
So we as taxpayers are £4000 down, meanwhile Broon and his cohorts are racking up this load of debt and PFI debt, perhaps its time to get them out, the best way would be for the mortgage holders not to pay their mortgage, it would be interesting to see how the government would act then, I some how cant see an army of baliffs at peoples doors to reposess peoples houses. Time for a poll tax revolt, it worked then and could work again.
32

Citylocal Fife,

Citylocal Fife News Room 18/02/2008 08:18:03
When do the NR Directors go to jail?

Or is this just another process of dither and obfuscation and nobody is to blame, so let's just punish the taxpayers? Again!

Yours etc

Angus Whitton

33

Jock Thomson,

Ayr 18/02/2008 08:18:52
Labour isn't working - AGAIN
34

sam the god,

18/02/2008 08:19:01
as we are all now shareholders will we get a dividend this year?
35

paulr,

edinburgh 18/02/2008 08:21:05
Since the shares closed at 90p each, then thats how much compensation shareholders should get.
They knew it was risky to play the stock market, now they will have to pay the price.
As for laurel and hardy, well i somehow do not think labour will win an election on their record.
36

jdships,

Edinburgh 18/02/2008 08:22:31
22 Royster,

Defending the indefensible methinks "
You are living in a fantasy world if you think Labour's plan for NR will work.
Five to ten years of money down the drain.


37

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 08:38:53
Gordon Brown has gone against his own grain by nationalising NR for its further contiuance and by doing so, has made a mockery of himself at Brussels level after continuosly advancing the elimination of state subsidies.

What about all those coal miners, steel workers and others who have not been so lucky to have had their jobs subsidised by the taxpayers.

NR is a failed bank like every other failed business. They should recoup the cash over the years from the mortgage repayments instead of taking further risks with our money.

brown is a tube man
38

,

18/02/2008 08:39:42
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39

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 08:40:33
Can the Labour party answer why they saved NR and not arguably more important British companies such as Marconi, Leyland etc etc etc.
40

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 08:41:53
Why place 100 billion on a failed bank and not on projects that have commercial viability? NR is f**ked
41

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 08:43:04
I don't dilsike the Labour party as they provide an excellent case study on how not to do things in times of trouble but how to do things when not in times of trouble.

What they have done here is bewildering though. Answers please
42

Iain's,

Barcelona 18/02/2008 08:45:59
Let's nationalise every loss making business in the country!
You know in your heart of hearts that it is the right decision.

Fortunately I pay my taxes here so it does not matter to me.

Serves you all right for voting for new labour!

A fool and his money, etc.etc.

43

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 08:46:26
How does this effect Article 81 and 82 of the Treaty of Rome and its implications on competition. NR will not be allowed to compete for new business as its backed by the Government and will therefore just be run down and bought in pieces by private equity.
44

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 08:46:34
If the Government tells the European Commission that Northern Rock was a fundamentally viable company, capable of long-term survival without state support, then the same argument will be used by Northern Rock shareholders to accuse the Government of unjust expropriation and of deliberately engineering the company's failure. And behind, in the long queue of potential litigants and self-avowed victims of Government incompetence and conniving will stand the citizens of Newcastle, deprived of their largest charitable institution, as well as the Northern Rock workers, who sooner or later will surely lose their jobs.

All in all, what Mr Darling announced yesterday was a financial and political disaster of almost unimaginable proportions. The Northern Rock saga did not end yesterday; the fiasco has only just started, with the Government now officially in charge .

45

,

18/02/2008 08:47:11
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46

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 08:48:11
Lovin it
47

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 08:50:01
Labour will be stealing from the plates at Churches next - there's an idea:

'Nationalise religeon'

National entreprenurial foresight or what
48

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 18/02/2008 08:52:11
I almost feel sorry for Darling. Yet again, Broon has left another poor holding the poisoned chalice. He squandered Ken Clarke's legacy. His entire economic 'miracle' was based on privatisation and vast, vast debt, both private and public. Broon colluded with the banks in basing economic expansion on unsustainable house price rises. He knew that all the banks were lending money to people who couldn't really afford it. Northern Rock was just the dodgiest example. The next few years are going to be fun, fun, fun.
49

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 08:53:47
Get yer wellies and pencils out folks, its re-education before tatty roguing for you.

Harvests will soon become the mainstay of state controlled media. Broadcasts to the world of how our agrarian population have increased output across all grains, livestock etc.

Chairman Mao Broon at the helm
50

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18/02/2008 08:55:05
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51

,

18/02/2008 08:57:36
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52

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 08:58:54
Surely a vote of no confidence must be looming after this?

20% of the current national debt used to prime up a failed bank that is doomed?????
53

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 08:59:44
Monumnetal - the ultimate PFI project. Do not let Wendy anywhere near this for Christs sake
54

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 09:02:43
Lord Foulkes - your attention please!!

Go on George, give us a quote!
55

Scruffy (the eejit slayer),

From Above 18/02/2008 09:02:48
It's clear to me .....all MP's will now be withdrawing their expenses from THEIR bank !!
56

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 09:05:51
What, no comments from other Labour highhedrons - the purges have began.

You do begin to understand Blairs reluctance in giving him power all the same
57

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 09:08:12
61 Excellent point.

Same day transfers without the inconveinence of BAC's payments. Immediate expenses payments probably before they are incurred.

LOVIN IT
58

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 09:10:47
You can see all Labour candidates now being sponsored with NR funds. It was logical I suppose as union funding decreased.

LOVIN IT, LOVIN IT, LOVIN IT

Lets hope that Douglas Alexander does not take over the proxy voting section of the bank in corporate action season.

Corporate action - please forgive me? Do Nationalised banks have corporate actions??
59

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 09:11:54
ha,ha, ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha, ha,ha,ha,ha,ha

The bank of Labour
60

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 09:12:44
There's a point.

Now that we have a Bank of Labour, will all their voters deposit their cash in there to put their dinheiro where there mouths are???
61

Mcsnagpile,

18/02/2008 09:15:02
Why does everybody talk about commercial solutions?? The commercial system failed and was bailed out by taxpayers money. The reason that businesses were nationalised in the past was because the commercial system failed and the taxpayer bailed them out. Business enterprise want their cake and eat it. They want to use taxpayer’s money to find a solution themselves to their own mess. Maggie said no lame ducks. The amount of taxpayer’s money that has been squandered especially during the 60’s and 70‘s British Leyland, ROOTES, R.Royce, British Shipbuilding, to name a couple, it goes on and on like a broken record. No wonder we have to cut back on Public Health and services---- to subsidize failed free enterprise.
62

cabrach loon,

aberdeen 18/02/2008 09:16:39
"Ron Sandler will become executive chairman of the bank and be paid an initial £90,000 a month for his services. He will be assisted by Ann Godbehere, a Canadian accountant and insurance executive, who is to be paid £75,000 a month"

And I thought it was a bankrupt entity - not much socialism in this - I wonder about kickbacks and fat cat lunches though? Are they worth it?. No none of them are!
63

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 09:19:15
I suppose George Foulkes is already getting the low down from Romanov down Tynecastle way in bank operations.

There is a poetic justice about all of this. A bank goes bankrupt because it invests in products, aimed at the poorest section of society with higher interest rates, from the most capitalist society on the planet.

Brown and co base our economy on debt stabilised by house boom or bust price inflation, but end up acting like their socialist forebearers to get things even more wrong.

Swings and rounabouts
64

Willie Macleod,

Wick 18/02/2008 09:20:46
Calm down folks its not a command economy Nationalisation is right in this situation Should have been done earlier.
65

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

The Labour Bank 18/02/2008 09:22:10
Special introductory offer:

"Open a Bank of Labour account today and get free Labour party membership for life. Remember, investment performance can go down aswell as up and may even in exceptional circumstances, be nationalised"
66

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 09:22:51
Does this mean that Newcastle Utd will be advertising Noo Laboooooor
67

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 09:25:37
70

The thing is Willie that everything that Brown and co have advocated in the UK, in Europe and globally has just been undone.

They did not nationalise this for commercial reasons, as their is absolutely no commercial value in this for the taxpayer. Why they did this beggars belief when they could have just let it fold as has always been the case.

NR is doomed. It cannot actively advertise itself as it is now backed by the govt putting rivals at a disadvantage. The money will slowly move away from NR.
68

joppa jock,

Huntingdon 18/02/2008 09:26:35
If the government had stood back the banks would have sorted this mess out themselves. It was never going to be in their interest to allow one of their number to go to the wall as the knock on effect would have been catastrophic for all of them. Political lightweights have no idea of the realities of commerce.
69

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 09:34:35
The reality Joppa Jock is that NR are going to the wall anyway. It should have been nationalised to close it down and not to continue its commercial operations. Stop it borrowing, lending and gradually recoup the mortgage book.

As it stands, the Euro commission will ask for this anyway and they will have to comply given the govt actions breach just about every peice of legislation at competition level within the EU. If that doesn't get them, then the litany of private actions will.

If the EU lets it go, which it wont under the state aid directions, then other UK banks will rightly ask for similar preferential treatment.

"the entire British mortgage industry has already put forward proposals for the Treasury to guarantee on a new type of mortgage bonds - and given warning of a collapse in loans to homeowners if the Government does not oblige"
70

The Strategist,

18/02/2008 09:40:47
The entire financial services sector is morally bankrupt.

Despite everyone now saying the Northern Rock business model was flawed the sector cheerfully lent Northern Rock huge amount of money through the wholesale market.

Now that the chips are down none of them are prepared to take on the mess they helped create.
71

lielayer,

18/02/2008 09:42:54
Northern Rock sold 2.5bn of its best mortgages to Tony Blair who fronts JP Morgan.

Surely any assets Nothern Rock has belong to the Britsh Public Taxpayer. Is it now the case that Northern Rock will be robbed by people like Tony Blair using corrupt influence, leaving the Taxpayer with the crumbs that nobody wanted when it goes bust next month.

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=65616
72

lielayer,

18/02/2008 09:45:06
Revealed: massive hole in Northern Rock's assets

A Guardian examination of Northern Rock's books has found that £53bn of mortgages - over 70% of its mortgage portfolio - is not owned by the beleaguered bank, but by a separate offshore company.

The same investigation reveals just how vulnerable the bank is to a cooling property market and demonstrates the scale of Northern Rock's exposure to mortgages where customers have borrowed heavily against their homes.

The mortgages are now owned by a Jersey-based trust company and have been used to underpin a series of bond issues to raise cash for Northern Rock. It means the pool of assets available to provide collateral for Northern Rock's creditors, including the Bank of England, is dramatically reduced, calling into question government claims that taxpayers' money is safe.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2007/nov/23/northernrock.bankofenglandgovernor
73

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 09:45:25
Then again every bank in the UK will have a fiduciary right to their shareholders to challenge this decision under Article 234 of Treaty of Rome. Annul the decions under 230,

Aerticle 87 states:

1 The assistance confers an advantage, is granted by the member State (or sponsored through State finances) and favours selected undertakings or production of selected goods

2 The assistance affects trade between member States ( a la Article 82)

3 The assistance distorts or threatens to distort competition

State financing or funding’ relates to a wide range of resources, such as local authority financing, compulsory contributions, and pure public funds.

This regulation states that State Aid will not offend Article 87 if the aid, provided over a three-year period, does not exceed €100,000.

The chances are that the Govy will win this as Virgin et al wished to buy NR. This will not stop other banks and private individuals having a go though and will certainly not stop the inability of NR to attract new business. It is a sitting duck and possibly one of the worst commercial decisions any govt has made this centuary.
74

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 09:46:58
76

Spot on. What about Farepak, What about Farepak,What about Farepak,What about Farepak,What about Farepak,What about Farepak,What about Farepak,What about Farepak,What about Farepak
75

Evan Owen,

Snowdonia 18/02/2008 09:47:09
The moment a bail out was announced in August it was technically nationalised, shares should have been suspened immediately, the FSA allowed trading to continue and many people who speculated that Branston Pickle would get his paws on our money have lost a packet. So much for regulation when it is only applied when it suits the political pygmies. regulation is bust, not fit for purpose, it is dead parrot.

Then there are the fees for the 'advisers', we will be paying for that too!! Whoopee...:-(

Complete and utter SHAMBLES, just like its regulatory puppet this government is long overdue for replacement, let's have a general election before the UK becomes a banana republic, sans bananas!
76

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 09:48:07
Just another classic example of New Labour refusing to help the most vunerable in society but bending over backwards, possibly illegally, to help the middle classes. Makes me sick to think that I voted for them once.
77

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 09:50:07
It nearly broke my heart 76 when I went home to my mothers and realised she had lost the lot on farepak vouchers.

78

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 09:53:33
78

Chances are that they are the most likely to be repaid which has left us with the high riskers. Nice to see Tony doing so well in the Private sector though
79

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 09:54:37
By my calculation between PFI, this and another couple of cock-ups, we are now 10,000 worse off than we were 4 years ago.

Well done

If you haven't left already, think about it
80

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 09:57:31
I am too sad to continue this tirade
81

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18/02/2008 09:58:30
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82

Willie Macleod,

Wick 18/02/2008 10:00:00
#84 Go on have a laugh at those who lost in farepak Just shows what kind of person you are.
83

Clive Hamblin,

Hove, Sussex 18/02/2008 10:09:27
So, the Directors prepared an'In House,' bid, to frustrate Sir R. Br. They've already demonstratd that they can't run the business; why did anyone take them seriously? And why are the shareholders squealing? The other name for 'investment' is 'taking a risk.' They took a risk and lost. The Institutions who gambled on NR being a safe bet, should perhaps conside the future of the investment managers concerned; why should our taxes bolster up their mistakes. Wonder who the PM and his friends will sell it to once the dust dies down.
84

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 10:09:32
89

That was the truth Willie I'm afraid
85

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18/02/2008 10:09:33
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86

Royster,

18/02/2008 10:12:35
#40. For the record, I'm not a Labour supporter. But what's the alternative? If they hadn't bailed out the bank then small depositors would have lost their money. That may have been okay in the 1930s but we live in a democracy and it's not acceptable for a high street bank to go belly up. Most of the money hasn't been lost anyway. It's in the form of guarantees so the bank can raise chaep money. When this sub-prime thing is over (2-4 years), they can sell at a better price and stop guaranteeing the bonds. Eitehr that or they can float it. The shareholders should get nothing as they weren't willing to share their profits when things were good.
87

Publius,

London 18/02/2008 10:13:41
A cold drive down to London last night. Some good posts about Northern Rock.
#22 Royster. You're half right. Northern Rock is bust.
#75 Very Rev Ian Paisley. You're almost completely right. I always thought that Ian Paisley was a religious nut but not this time.
N Rock should be put into administration: that way the government could buy it from the administrators for a nominal sum (one pound?) without having to pay off the shareholders. Savers could then be paid off and mortgages gradually disposed of as and when conditions are right. That way the government will get most of our money back. Not all, because there is no chance of getting all the money back.
The employees would lose their jobs, but that's a chance you take when you work for a private company.
P.S. The comparison with Rolls Royce is absurd. In 1971 Rolls Royce had the blueprints for some brilliant jet engines. N Rock is bank that provides mortgages. Every bank in the country provides mortgages. And 59 building societies.
88

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 10:18:12
92

Forgot that one Splashie. I have been saving religeously ever since they said thats what it would cost.

We are in serious trouble though. We have a UK govt that tells us we can't manage our own affairs and controls our purse strings that then comes out with probably the worst commercial decision in a centuary. We are doomed.
89

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 10:20:45
93

Thats the best case scenario but up until then there are going to be litigations like nothing this country has ever seen before. Which ever way the govt now try and litigate themselves out of this, one of the parties to the case will use their defense as part of its own litigation, be they the EU, remaining private banks or existing stakeholders in NR. they can't win. NR is doomed.
90

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 10:22:35
94

Just my stage name publius
91

WL,

livingston 18/02/2008 10:23:32
Nationalise Northern Rock: that is the worst thing to do. The financial sector should solve its own problems.
Old labour, new labour, no change.
92

Willie Macleod,

Wick 18/02/2008 10:26:11
#73 So if the government had done nothing about northern rock you would be the first one to congratulate them on their non intervention. I dont think so you would be attacking them for not doing anything
93

Willie Macleod,

Wick 18/02/2008 10:34:56
#91 Sorry I thought you were being cynical about farepak my apologies Willie
94

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 10:38:51
Absolutely not Willie, I do not believe in state interference save for that that protects the consumer and their right to benefit from free competition and all the benefits that brings. It should have been nationalised to wind it down instead of it continuing to trade.

Precedents were set along time ago over more important industries to this country than NR. This decision was taken for political reasons and not commercial reasons, which has now left it in an absolutely no win situation.

NR was always going to collapse. This just prolongs the pain and will make not just the Labour party look daft but raise questions internationally about Gordon Brown and anything he says to the wider community.

Gordon Brown has just diluted his international standing, policy of New Labour and opened up the taxpayer to probably some of the most expensive litigation that we will ever see. It should have been nationalised to wind it down, not continue it in a commercial sense when it is restricted from competing against other banks. If it doesn't compete it goes down, if it does try and compete then other banks litigate because it has an unfair advantage - no win.
95

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 10:46:07
And you can't really defend it on the grounds that the UK has a shortage of mortgage lenders or that the 6000 employees will not find another job to the EU when the envitable 'state aid' case is brought.

100 billion set aside for years in all liklihood with the liklihood that there may be many defaults on mortgage payments given that Tony Blair and JPMorgan just took over the triple A mortgages from NR.
96

Willie Macleod,

Wick 18/02/2008 10:48:40
#101 Fair comment I will catch up with you on this and other issues later Best Wishes Willie
97

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 18/02/2008 10:51:11
So, if Northern Rock is nationalised that means that when a payment defaulter in the US is to face their house being repossessed then it is the UK government kicking them and their family out into the street?
98

Joanna,

Cambs, England 18/02/2008 10:53:04
Move over Darling..... time to exit stage left.
99

ricky1975,

coventry 18/02/2008 10:58:10
Let's face it this situation was caused by the thick, overpaid, greedy bankers who created this credit crunch mess and the incompetent Norther Rock management. Our government has just done it's best to sort things out. I guess though it's convenient to ignore the facts when you need an excuse to disrespect our government. I bet you're all just pining for the good old days of 15% interest rates under the Tories !
100

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 18/02/2008 10:59:19
#93 Royster

That's not the cae. Small depositors would not have lost their money. Deposits are pretty much guaranteed by the Bank of England and the government. Share holders, on the other hand, would lose their cash, but that's the market. I'm sure they were happy enough to take the dividends when the bank was making big profits based on dodgy martgage shares, the government should have allowed them to take the hit not bail them out with taxpayers' money.
101

Doh,

18/02/2008 11:00:10


Darling should resign over the Northern Rock fiasco.

But Tony didnt resign even for 40 minutes about the invasion of Iraq.

New Labour means a government that takes no responsibility for its failures but expects the credit for its success.

New Labour more spin.
102

Bewildered,

Glasgow 18/02/2008 11:03:35
Why does the Scotsman feel the need to go for a cheap sensational headline using "Humiliated" ; do they think we need to be tempted to read an article on a serious subject.
I would rather the Government took over NR and have it managed the recovery and/or dispersal rather than do a deal with a provate business who will make sure there is a deal that will secure for them a large surplus. Alisdair Darling is faced with a very difficult problem, which did not create, and has ,in my view adopted a solution which will reduce the exposure to the taxpayer.
103

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 18/02/2008 11:05:42
#106 Ricky

Nonsense. The government knew that the whole 'feel good' economy was based on very dodgy activity by the banks. I recall a TV programme a good few years ago about the dangers of self-certificated (sub-prime) mortgages. It foresaw all this. The housing boom of the last decade was largely based on no more than institutionalised fraud. The government was well aware of what was going on but did nothing because that's wht its claims of economic 'prudence' were based on.
104

Andra, Dundee,

18/02/2008 11:14:28
The Government did not cause the problem.

The problem was with the NR model - bad luck for shareholders but their company is BUST - so I hope their bleating does not get them a penny.

And I think the Government are handling it as well as is possible. The tax payer may even make a profit on this deal!
105

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 18/02/2008 11:16:46
How can you "temporarily" nationalise a bank? I've never heard of anything so rediculous in my life (well, actually I probably have because labour are passed masters at the rediculous).

Either you nationalise a bank or you don't. Just what do they think they are doing? Take the bank into public hands, stuf it full of money, then return it to private hands again? Probably.

This whole thing stinks of the knee-jerk government trying to patch up their disasterously incompetent policies regarding the economy of this country.

The housing market---and the credit market for that matter---is something that the government should have regulated years ago. The reason that they didn't is that they preferred to make everything in the garden look rosey whilst the nation's economy built itself a false stability based upon credit.

Well, the day of reckoning is nigh and the Northern Rock affair is only the start of it.
106

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 18/02/2008 11:19:31
#111 Andra

The government might not have caused it, but were complicit in it. Broon is up to oxters in it and his claims to economic competence have finally been exposed. It's a shame we've all got to suffer for it.
107

Andra, Dundee,

18/02/2008 11:22:53
#112
"temporarily" means that they do not intend retaining ownership in the long term. Unlike past nationalisations of heavy industry which was done for political reasons for the long term.
If you need anything else explained just let us know - it's just as well you are not running the show!
108

The Accountant,

Fife, glorious Fife 18/02/2008 11:25:29
Really cant see what the fuss is about, this institution ran out of cash and HM Govt did what it had to in order to safeguard borroweres and depositors.

The £100bn figure presumably is the amount Northern Rock owes? but at the same time it will have more than £100bn of assets.

No need to panic
109

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 11:26:38
103

Cheers Willie but it is just a debacle that is going to go on and on and on
110

Tris,

dundee 18/02/2008 11:26:47
~74.

We certainly have political lightweights... but what about the Bank of England, and the FSA.... shouldn't they be more than lightweights? Should they not know a bit about commercial reality? Why do we pay these people? And in suck vast amounts?

As for Farepack.... Fat chance of Darling doing anything about that. The people who saved with Farepack were little people; the kind that only a Labour party would look after..... oooops , oh dear.... didn't the UK vote in a Labour Government, or was that just a dream I had?
111

Andra, Dundee,

18/02/2008 11:27:19
#113
I agree - Broon is not my preferred flavour of Economic management. I strongly agree that his best years were the ones where he followed Tory policy - and since he introduced his own ingredients things have gone down hill.
But the credit crunch / NR Problem was caused by US housing problems which are not Broons responsibility - and I reiterate that he has handled this problem as well as possible.
112

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 18/02/2008 11:27:55
#114 Andra

You're having a laugh. You don't think this is being don for political reasons? It's the biggest of all political reasons, saving Broon's face and a**e. If NR is such a going concern, why are their no takers for it?
113

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 18/02/2008 11:32:45
#115 Accountant

Remind me not to come to you for financial advice. I know next to hee haw about economics but isn't it obvious that the only real asset the bank has is the properties it holds as mortgage lender? If the bottom is about to fall out of the housing market, the government has just bought us a house built on old mineworks. An article in the Telegraph today is intersting. House prices are collapsing in the USA and Ireland, why should the UK be any different?
114

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/02/2008 11:36:02
The problem is that the govt unwittingly has put itself into a position, on behalf of the taxpayer, that could get it litigated against by three parties, the EU, private banks and the shareholders. To ward off any of these would give grounds for the others to sue and win unless the company is wound down which should have happened in the first place though nationalisation.

It has taken on a debt of 100 billion representing the future mortgage payments of the riskier mortgages after the safe ones had been sold off to JPMorgan increasing the risk profile of the govt backed debt.

It is an inconceivable thing to do given current market predictions, precedent, legal liability not to mention reputational risk this has created. They can't win on this.

It is truly the most absurd thing they could have done and this will haunt the UK for years
115

Sgurr,

18/02/2008 11:38:45
That is some debt to equity ratio!!! Got to love Labour - their bumbling incompetence has taken a while to emerge, but now it has, oh boy it has.

If anyone was wondering how the Tories managed to stay in power for 17 years, this is probably as good an answer as any. The only hope is that they sell it back into the market when banking is near the top of its next cycle...which would be at least 5 years away, I'd guess! Ho hum, in the meantime its goodbye fiscal prudence, hello increased tax burden.
116

ricky1975,

coventry 18/02/2008 11:47:19
#110 Draco Was a Wimp

You're just clutching at straws now. The facts are Northern Rock wasn't selling sub primes. The subprime crisis in the USA led to the banks/building societies refusing to lend money to eachother. So Northern Rock ran out of cash to run it's business. Now are you seriously suggesting that 2 or 3 years ago the UK government should have either tried to stop American bankers making sub prime loans or told Northern Rock how to run its business.If so you live in a fantsay world and I'm sure if it had done you would have been on here whingeing about the nanny state and too much regulation. The situation at Northern Rock was caused by market failure pure and simple and the government has been left to pick up the pieces. But I guess it's easier to ignore the facts.
117

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 18/02/2008 11:55:40
#123 Ricky

Of course the UK government can't tell US banks not to make subprime loans. But the government, in the shape of the FSA, could sure as hell regulate lending in the UK. Northern Rock's meteoric expansion in the last few years was based on lending to people who will (and I hope not) be shown to be bad risk borrowers. Jeez, it doesn't take a genius to work out. When I first took out a mortgage you were lucky to borrow twice your earnings. The banks now hand out mortgages to people who were borrowing purely on the basis of low interst rates and rising house prices. And were lending to people they KNEW were lying on their mortgage applications. Even I can see that's dangerous, so why didn't your beloved Labour government? Because their growing economy was based on a false sense of welbeing, greed and fraud.
118

Brian Ferrari,

18/02/2008 11:58:37
Mr Bean and Captain Darling.

.....oh dear.....oh dear.......oh dear....
119

The Strategist,

18/02/2008 12:20:23
This problem can actually be traced back to the mid 80s when one Margaret Thatcher unconditionally deregulated the City.

There was no deal done. Thatcher didn't say she would deregulate the City providing it agreed to support UK industry and UK interests generally. So, the City was essentially given a free ride and allowed to do what it wants.

One of the statistically interesting outcomes is that almost to the day the trade deficit started getting considerably worse but accelerated dramatically between 97 and now.
120

Sid & Doris Bonkers,

in the toll booths 18/02/2008 12:24:06
damned if he does, damned if he does not,lets bring back
the Tories and their 17% interest rates,wake up and smell
the coffee,where`s the problem? Britain is the third richest country in the world,when do we get the payback in oil from invading Iraq,no lover of New Tories sorry New Labour they should join together get rid of the Milliband twins
121

ricky1975,

coventry 18/02/2008 12:29:28
#124 Draco Was a Wimp

You seem to be getting more and more confused. You need to calm down and look at the facts. This is very simple, Northern Rock does not have problems with its borrowers defaulting, in fact it has a good mortgage book. The problem Northern Rock had was that due to the subprime crisis in the USA other banks would no longer lend it money and this led to cashflow problems. That has nothing to so with dodgy mortgage approvals, unregulated lending or indeed the government.
122

The Strategist,

18/02/2008 12:40:31
#128

Well actually it is the Govt's problem. They set up the FSA and the FSA failed to ring the warning bells about NR's risky business model.

As to why they didn't we can only speculate but I would suggest that the closeness of the FSA to the City and a general belief in Govt that the financial services sector could no wrong probably had a lot to do with it.

Hopefully this episode will have taugh the Govt a strong lesson in this regard.
123

Zedd,

Fife 18/02/2008 13:00:58
Its fun to laugh at the govt over this. But I am struggling to see why its their fault. The oh so efficient capitalists undermined Northern Rock themselves, news commentators hyped the story up to a frenzy, when infact a bit of social responsibilty would have avoided the panic. It isn't really an option to let it fall now, so what did Big Al do wrong? (Apart from the eyebrows - no argument there.)#129, you are effectively blaming the police for increased crime. Blame the criminals!
124

Busymale,

18/02/2008 13:34:33
What a nonsense. Can't we just let this company go bust and let the shareholders take the risk they accepted when they bought the shares?

My credit cards are a bit wobbly just now, can the taxpayer please help me out?
125

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 18/02/2008 13:40:26
114:

Andra,

Please read my post. Especially the bit where I talk about stuffing Northern Rock full of money, then handing it back to the private sector.

I know the definition of temporary thank you.

This is being done in an attempt to shore up the results of incompetancy verging on criminal irresponsibility on the part of the labour government who allowed the economy to be based upon credit. If Northern rock went down the tubes, it would lead to economic disaster.
126

The Strategist,

18/02/2008 14:04:27
#130

The Govt have to share the blame because they allowed it to happen.
127

ricky1975,

coventry 18/02/2008 14:19:50
The govt. had no responsibility for how Northern Rock ran it's business. As long as it did nothing illegal the directors and shareholders were solely responsible for running Northern Rock. After all nobody is claiming Northern Rock broke any laws or Financial or Accounting Regulations. They just had a high risk business strategy and got caught out by the credit squeeze. This is just a feeble attempt to try and pin some private sector incompetence on Labour. It's time to grow up.
128

The Strategist,

18/02/2008 15:37:19
#135

Errr.. Nice try but I'm afraid the Govt is as responsible as the NR management for this fiasco because it is supposed to monitor bank activity.
129

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 18/02/2008 15:38:52
#135:

And who made the laws within which Northern Rock operated then?

Who's laws allowed burgeoning credit and did nothing to control the housing market?

This is the fault of the incompetent labour government who were afraid to make unpopular decisions to control the housing market spiralling out of control and to at least dissuade people from borrowing more and more money.

I for one hope that this crisis brings them down. We will be well rid of them. Unfortunately it will fall to the Tories to get us out of this mess and make all the unpopular decisions to do so.
130

Mathematics,

18/02/2008 15:57:29
135 - Ricky1975 & 137 High Octane

Can't help but think you gentlemen have missed an important point. The chief executive was a daddy's boy. That is to say he had an art history degree or somesuch and no financial qualifications whatsoever, he just had a retiring dad who left his old job to a son.

So you see they are bound to have broke many corporate governance laws and the watchdogs should have stopped this. But nepotism is still rife in this country.

And you see, the high risk strategy was rubber-stamped by a chief executive who wouldn't have know high-risk stategy from under-your-matress srategy.

The two previous cheifs should be sued for every penny. Not enough justice, but living their years in the council flat next door to those suffering because of the high taxes imposed to pay for hereditory rule would be some small comfort.
131

treacleswamp,

18/02/2008 16:11:02
'Humiliated' should be reserved for Branson and the other suitors, without whom this decision could have been taken much sooner. Since the first charge is against the shareholders, they should have to wait until assets are sold off - and will probably get something (government borrows more cheaply the banks), whereas now they are worth nothing. Now at least everyone realises that we have been importing money to buy our houses, not only from NR. This, said clearly, would have stopped most of the price escalation of recent years.
132

ricky1975,

coventry 18/02/2008 16:14:47
#136 "The government is supposed to monitor bank activity". Huh! So the government has to review and approve the business strategy for every bank in the UK. That's news to me. Come on you're just making things up now.

#137 Months and months after NR first experienced problems you still don't understand the cause. This had nothing to do with easy credit or the housing boom in the UK. It came about because banks no longer wanted to lend money to eachother. But as you know you can't blame that on the government so you'd rather just make up your own version of the truth.

#138
I don't know exactly how NR was run but I guess the auditors or non exec directors should have picked up on any problems. But that's not my point. I am just trying to explain that you can't hold the govt. responsible for the mismanagement of a listed plc.
133

Guthrie,

Edinburgh 18/02/2008 16:17:33
Here itchy itchy itchy.
134

Tomdonald,

18/02/2008 16:45:29
Darling the ditherer has been overruled by his line manager. Gordon is an LSE economist and knows what a "prudent" chancellor should do. Virgin as always is after a quick buck. In-house bids are rarely successful as they were involved in producing the disaster. Hindsight suggests closing a bank for 48hr when an unseemly run develops allowing time to get paying out in an orderly fashion to be arranged.
135

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18/02/2008 17:10:57
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18/02/2008 17:20:47
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Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 18/02/2008 17:24:38
"...It came about because banks no longer wanted to lend money to eachother."

Which in turn came about due to the existance of "sub-prime" mortgages where people were being lent many times their salary in order to get into a housing market that had spiraled out of control due to lack of regulation by the government.

The government allowed this to happen. At the very least they played a part in it, along with the American government.

Why are you standing up for these morons? Surely you can see that the country would be well rid of them.
138

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18/02/2008 17:27:41
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18/02/2008 17:33:05
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18/02/2008 17:38:28
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18/02/2008 17:42:46
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18/02/2008 17:49:00
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18/02/2008 17:58:58
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Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 18/02/2008 18:06:22
#147 Dsne

I've said before, I ain't know enonomist but I'd think it was fairly obvious that any economic growth based on tick isn't good. With a shrinking manufacturing base, any growth is based on a growing public sector and service industries. People spend their BORROWED money on restaurants and face lifts and holidays if they feel that their houses are increasing in value. We're all lidding ourselves if you think that an economy based on rising house prices is a sound one. The government must have known that the amount of lending by the banks was dangerous, yet it did nothing to stop it, indeed it encouraged it in a pathetic effort to convince us we'd never had it so good.
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18/02/2008 18:14:07
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18/02/2008 18:23:35
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Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 18/02/2008 18:24:49
#154 Dane

If you can show me that the economic growth of the last 5 years 2 Labour governments has not been based on government and private debt, I will accept that. What I'm saying is the government has been tacitly approving the private debt as long as the economy was growing. Broon has been happy enough to take the credit for the growth.
148

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18/02/2008 18:25:30
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The Strategist,

18/02/2008 23:40:28
#148

LOL ... Exactly.

 

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