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'Cold-blooded execution' of teenager beyond imagination, declares judge

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Published Date: 09 November 2006
Judge jails Kriss Donald's killers for 25, 23 and 22 years Lord Uist condemns lack of remorse for racially aggravated murder Brief political skirmish at Holyrood follows over sentencing
Key quote
"Racially-aggravated violence, from whatever quarter, will not be tolerated in Scotland, and those who commit it must expect to receive long sentences" - LORD UIST

Story in full THE "savage and barbaric" murder of Kriss Donald was "truly an abomination", the judge said yesterday as he jailed the teenager's three killers for a minimum of 25, 23 and 22 years.

Addressing Imran "Baldy" Shahid, 29, the ringleader of the gang of Asian men who snatched the teenager off the street, repeatedly stabbed him and set him on fire, Lord Uist said: "It is clear ... that you are a thug and a bully with a sadistic nature, and you are not fit to be at liberty in a civilised society."

The jury of nine women and six men found Imran Shahid guilty of racially-aggravated abduction and murder by a unanimous vote. His brother, Zeeshan "Crazy" Shahid, 28, and Mohammed Faisal "Beck" Mushtaq, 27, were convicted of the same offence by a majority.

At the first announcement of "guilty", Kriss's mother, Angela Donald, hugged a boy, believed to be her son, Laurie, sitting at her side in the packed public gallery. At the second, she exchanged smiles with her daughter, Samantha, and at the third, they embraced.

Mrs Donald was unable to contain her emotion and, half standing, she screamed at the three men in the dock: "Yes. You bastards."

In contrast, the Shahid brothers and Mushtaq stared ahead, ignoring the commotion behind them.

Addressing them, Lord Uist said: "You have all been convicted of the racially-aggravated abduction and murder of Kriss Donald, a wholly innocent 15-year-old boy of slight build. He was selected only because he was white and walking in a certain part of the Pollokshields area of Glasgow while you sought out a victim.

"It truly was an abomination. The savage and barbaric nature of this notorious crime has rightly shocked and appalled the public."

Lord Uist said Kriss must have been in a state of extreme terror as his captors took him on a four-hour car journey to Dundee and back, before murdering him at the Clyde walkway in the Parkhead area of Glasgow.

"The agony he must have suffered during the period between being stabbed and set alight and his death is beyond imagining. None of you has shown any remorse for what you have done," he said.

Lord Uist said life imprisonment was the only sentence which could be passed for the crime of murder, but he had also to set the "punishment part", the minimum period which would have to be served by each accused before he could apply for parole. He warned that release after that period was not guaranteed.

Lord Uist said he took into account the criminal records of the men, the diabolical nature of their crime, their lack of remorse and the fact that the offence was racially aggravated.

"Racially-aggravated violence, from whatever quarter, will not be tolerated in Scotland, and those who commit it must expect to receive long sentences," he added.

Lord Uist said Imran Shahid would have to serve a minimum of 25 years in jail. Zeeshan Shahid, the driver of the car used in the abduction, had played an essential part in the murder and had been actively involved in destroying evidence. The punishment part for him would be 23 years.

Lord Uist said Mushtaq, like both of the others, had been jailed previously for assault. He had played a significant role in the murder, making phone calls to try to find a flat to which Kriss could be taken, and helping to burn the car and a bag of clothing after the killing. He would serve at least 22 years.

However, a row broke out over claims that an MSP attempted to make political capital out of the case. Tory Margaret Mitchell hit out at Scotland's sentencing system because Imran Shahid had committed the murder while he was on early release.

Mrs Mitchell, the Scottish Conservative justice spokesman, said: "At Holyrood, the Labour-Lib Dem Scottish Executive has had seven years to end automatic early release and on no less than four occasions rejected Scottish Conservative amendments proposing exactly that."

But Labour's Govan MSP, Gordon Jackson, a leading criminal defence advocate, branded the comments distasteful.

He said: "As the community mourns, this is not the time for the Conservatives to try to make cheap political capital from the sad events."

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 09 November 2006 5:09 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Kriss Donald murder
 
1

,

09/11/2006 02:57:33
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2

,

09/11/2006 03:17:05
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3

,

09/11/2006 03:26:17
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4

The Bruce,

USA 09/11/2006 03:49:43

They should have been deported on their prior convictions, and this would never have occurred. So now they go to jail, and the taxpayers pay. they should have been taken and executed , but im sure their are some bleeding hearts who would oppose this.

5

Onlooker,

09/11/2006 04:02:23

Pigs. Worthless psychopathic pigs. That poor laddie. Hope they have an 'interesting' time in a jail full of people whose colour of skin they hate...

6

,

09/11/2006 05:08:36
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7

castle,

glasgow 09/11/2006 05:10:11

they should be executed......period

8

,

09/11/2006 05:23:34
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9

Royster,

09/11/2006 05:54:16

A stiff sentence but still a little on the light side. Another 10 years on top before parole would be better seeing as the victim was set alight whilst still alive. As regards some of the above racist comments, if they had been tried in Pakistan then the sentence would have been death - no nonsense Sharia law. Please remember that most muslims are law-abiding and the local Pakistani community is as appaled by this murder as anyone else.

10

Repton,

edinburgh 09/11/2006 05:57:46

Evil beyond belief.They should be hung for such a despicible crime.
Don`t have a go at the Asians as this lot were just pure evil.

11

MG,

09/11/2006 06:18:39

Their behaviour would not have been tolerated in medevil times let alone now, however UK society has moved on.

They are UK citizens and therfore must be treated as such. They must be tried and punished as UK citizens and it is the root of their motivation that must be addressed as a matter of urgency for the whole of society.

People who call for their hanging are taking the next step towards further segragation and tension between muslims and the rest of society.

12

,

09/11/2006 06:20:04
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13

Devatipan,

UK expat in Germany 09/11/2006 06:31:29

These people are absolute scum. The judge could not have got it righter, and, for once, the justice system got it right too.

14

gmoney,

09/11/2006 06:40:28

this goes beyond tragedy. the death penalty is too good for those soulless butchers - they deserve nothing less than to be abused and tormented every day until their last, and even then i doubt God will have pity on them.


this is not indicative of a functioning "multicultural society" inspite of what 10 downing street likes to call it - this is what happens when you unconditionally open your borders to thugs and criminals who literally swooped in, controlled and terrorized an entire neighborhood without any wherewithall to stop them - all under the banner of modern statesmanship..... because, God forbid, you tell someone they're breaking the law and stop them from doing it you just might hurt their feelings.

15

,

09/11/2006 06:49:29
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16

why can't I use my own name???,

09/11/2006 06:52:56

I'm sure they were born here. In all honesty, I never thought of racial tension as a problem in Glasgow until I heard of this case.

What is also interesting is that some of them fled to Pakistan, to hide among the 'brothers'. Just gald they got caught, and I hope they get some in Barlinnie ;-)

17

Stewie G,

09/11/2006 07:12:50

29 yo man and accomplices butchering a 15 yo boy-how very brave!

tick-tock, tick-tock!

18

,

09/11/2006 07:24:27
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19

Ceanne,

Glasgow 09/11/2006 07:24:37

I was on a national newspapers website tonight, were people from all over the world were shocked that this was the first time they had heard of the horrific death of this young boy. Why was this not reported nationwide ?

20

PowerScot,

KZN 09/11/2006 07:28:41

So these guys fancy themselves as hardmen.
Butchering a wee 15 year old boy. I think they will
be meeting some real hardmen in the Bar - L.
Tick - tock tick - tock.

21

Ceanne,

Glasgow 09/11/2006 07:29:38

I was on a national newspapers website tonight, were people from all over the world were shocked that this was the first time they had heard of the horrific death of this young boy. Why was this not reported nationwide ?

22

Stuart F.,

Burnaby, B.C. Canada 09/11/2006 07:36:29

My prayer for the Donald family is that they would find the love and support from their community about them. This was a terrible thing to happen - and should never have happened.
Is this justice enough? I don't think so. These thugs showed no mercy in what they did.

23

Duncan in Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 07:37:29

A disgusting, racially motivated crime, which has garnered a racially motivated response from some posters here. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Interesting that the publications so often slated by the people posting here, like the BBC and the left-wing press, have been the ones giving this case the attention it deserves.

The solution to racially motivated crime is not to introduce more racially divisive action - like the deportation referred to above. There is no simple answer, but all communities need to work together to stop this happening again.

24

bill, england,

09/11/2006 07:40:23

The sentence is far too lenient. The death penalty is not uncivilised, but very appropriate in clearcut cases like this one.

Remember the man yesterday who plotted and trained to commit terrorism? He didn't do anything but got 40 years.

25

Big J,

Dundee 09/11/2006 07:41:04

Where there is no remorse surely we should ensure some is "created" to keep them company through the long years.

Do you honestly think this would have happened had these thugs been made complete fools of the first time they had been caught either by being put in the stocks or publicly birched, ....... ASBOs may be "badges of honour" but getting your kegs out in public and having your fat smelly backside beaten raw wouldn't be I'll bet. It may not be the only language we understand but the point is it is the only one these sorts of thugs understand.

26

Charles M,

09/11/2006 07:58:02

The interesting bit for me was how difficult it was to extradite them from Pakistan. It took 18 months to extradite the people who murdered and tortured an innocent boy all of whom had a track record of violence. If we are serious about the " war on terror" how come we don't have an extradition treaty with the source of much of that terror.

27

eric,

09/11/2006 08:03:41

I havent used any asian or muslim shops Since 9/11 .Its my democratic choice.

28

Billy Fulton,

09/11/2006 08:05:41

Praise to the Scottish law lords for passing down such a harsh sentence-loud and clear message to the racist animals and their community...I'm sure a warm welcome awaits this lot in the Bar L...
die slowly you murdering scum!!!

29

Ceanne,

Glasgow 09/11/2006 08:06:56

Duncan 23. Do you work for the BBC ? Local news yes but national news.... get real. This was a non story as far as the BBC was concerned. Can someone please remind me why I am paying so much for a license fee?

30

Expat,

09/11/2006 08:13:17

These is a real danger of a racist backlash against the whole Asian community in Scotland because of this despicable crime. The racists will use it for their own ends; they want more discord and violence. We shouldn't forget that it was Mohamud Sarwar who negotiated the extradition treaty to bring those guys home - an incredibly difficult, almost superhuman task under the circumstances. It was achieved in the face of indifference from the British government who didn't want this case to interfere with their own 'war on terror' treaty. As anyone who has lived in that part of the world can tell you, it is a near miracle these disgusting animals were brought back to even face a trial at all. When I lived in Glasgow 20 years ago, the Asian people you met were gentle, hard-working salt of the earth types. Racism was not on the agenda, it was a total non-issue. Obviously, the Asian community now needs to take a long, hard look at this and themselves. But if we don't use this terrible tragedy to put an end to all racist crime from whatever quarter then we will have failed that poor wee boy and his family - for whom all our hearts are broken. This is Scotland, we are so much better than this.

31

,

09/11/2006 08:14:53
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32

Jocky,

09/11/2006 08:18:27

Rot in the bar-l guys and I'm sure they are already whimpering and crying for their mummy's
Cowardly scum.

33

,

09/11/2006 08:18:46
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34

BGW,

09/11/2006 08:20:34

Where is the moderator of this forum? The majority of these posts are neo-fascist thinly-veiled and openrascist tripe, encouraging racist hatred and ethnic cleansing. The murderers have been put through the courts, convicted and sent down. That is it!
I feel sullied reading the comments in here, Clansmen, Castle, Androsthenes, Powerscot - you make me feel ashamed to be Scottish if your claim is the same. However your attitudes make you like the Quislings of Norway, or the architects of Auchswitz. Tell me what skin colour were Hitler, Stalin, Petain, Mussolini, the royal power-mongers of WW1, and the makers of the 500 year policies of conquest,colonialism and genocide throughout the world by European states and USA? WHite people as cultural angels? Heritage of righteousness? What ignorant laughable tripe.
There are sociopaths and violent idiots all over the world, and our violent Scots are just the same.
You want a cure.... look inside your own violent bitter and twisted hearts.
You think you can do better than Kathy Jamieson, save us all from your one-sided narrow-minded poorly understood notions of justice.

35

eric,

09/11/2006 08:24:27

Its my Democratic choice (DEMOCRATIC),NOT rascist ,I based my desision on How the bombers were funded to go train in Pakistan etc ,Its a fact that was discovered during the investigations ,

36

walter,

09/11/2006 08:32:13

#21-#23
The truth is this case was not reported outside Scotland until a few weeks ago.
During a news report on the funeral of Anthony Walker I made reference to this case and was accused of lying as if such a horrendous crime had taken place it would have been all over the news.

37

conservative,

Fife 09/11/2006 08:34:14

BGW, 34

ANYONE, Anyone at all, could do better than Kathy Jamieson. Can you think of anything at all she has done to improve our legal system or our security?

38

DaveM,

Edinburgh 09/11/2006 08:36:10

Some time ago, I popped into my local corner shop on my way to a night out, for which I was 'kilted up'.
The elderly gent serving me was delighted, and told me that seeing Scottish soldiers on parade in his native Pakistan as a child had been the main reason he had come here - he had been so impressed by such the kilts, pipes and drums.
Some of the previous posters should be downright ashamed of their views. They are making judgements based purely on skin colour.
As for Kriss's killers - they are criminals, and personally, I think for a crime such as this, there should be a death penalty irrespective of who commited the crime, but there isn't and so unfortuanately the taxpayer will have to accomodate them.

39

eric,

09/11/2006 08:42:32

My choice wasnt based on skin colour,I got on very well with my corner Muslim shop,Up until 9/11.I walked into a Party mood the next day Closing early And the following year they had a banner up wishing customers Happy independence day ,mmmm .This was outside a huge Police station ,
A lot of locals still dont use it .Even the elderly walk that extra bit and pass the shop.DONT shop its simple

40

Borderman,

Borders 09/11/2006 08:45:27

I'm appalled by some of the racist comments made here, and the feigned shock that such a racist attack could take place. It happened in Glasgow, a city that has thrived on bigotry. In my lifetime I've read many reports of people murdered just for supporting the wrong football team. And not too many years ago, Surjit Chhokar was brutally murdered in a racist attack. Sadly, his death and Kriss Donald's are a result of the same sickness. The murderer's of Kriss are just part of Scotland's legacy of bigotry and violence. Our country's shame.

41

Ian2,

09/11/2006 08:46:07

I'm sure in another thread people were berating the Iraqis for issuing the death penalty to Saddam and Blair's lukewarm response to it.

One point made was that the death penalty has little support in the UK (or Scotland) ...

42

Chris, Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 08:46:19

Posts 1,2, 18, 31 & 33 - appalling etiquette. You should take some lessons in dignity from Angela Donald, who made a point of asking for there to be no backlash against the Asian community. Go back under your stones.

43

David BA,

Edinburgh 09/11/2006 08:46:21

For far too long, the young generation of ethnics has been allowed to abuse the race discrimination laws.
Entire areas of Glasgow have been virtual 'no-go' areas for law enforcement as police are intimidated by the threat of 'racist allegations' and subsuequent inquiries and other ethnics terrified into becoming blind, deaf and dumb.
The 'growing separation' of young Muslims has also contributed to a genuine fear from both police and court as being perceived as 'racist' and the ususal faces appear on our screens behmently arguing about the 'human or civil rights' of the ethnic community.
ENOUGH ALREADY
If a person from a different land choses to come to this fantastic place called Scotland - they should realise and accept that whereas religious freedom is a right...with that right comes responsibility and expectations from the people of Scotland.
We expect incomers to made strenuous efforts to adapt to and respect the Scottish ethos and modes of Scottish life.
We expect incomers to respect the all citizens rights and traditions.
We expect incomers to reach out to the community and the community to reach out to them to encourage fluency of language, tolerance and understanding and the development of MUTUAL respect.
For far too long, respect has been one way street and demanded by certain (even leading) members of the ethnic community and NOTHING is said when members of the ethnic community refuse to respect the rights of the local community.
For far too long ethnic leaders (Many of them self-elected or appointed) have failed dismally to address the problems of the new generations - most of whom don't even respect their own fathers and/or elders.
I was disgusted at the fact that none of the 'ususal suspects' who promote 'Human rights' had the decency or courage to appear on camera or in print defending the 'civil rights of a white 15 yoer old lad, whose only crime was to be in the wrong place...and the wrong colou

44

Duncan in Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 08:47:20

"eric" (I see you have changed your name again, you were "brian" a few days ago. Whatever),

Your logic is the logic of the racist, and your actions are the actions of a racist. Therefore allow me to put two and two together and say that you, sir, are a racist.

To respond to the actions of one set of individuals (the people who you say celebrated the deaths on 9/11) with actions against other individuals (all other Pakistani shop owners in Scotland) whose only connection to the first set of people is a shared racial heritage, is not only racist, it is downright stupid.

To further denigrate that second group by claiming that "their only god is money" just adds insult to injury.

I fear, sadly, that you are too convinced of the righteousness of your stance to be able to see its stupidity.

45

JAL,

Borders 09/11/2006 08:49:41

Well spoken, BGW and expat - far too much racist nonsense in most comment.

46

voltaire's janny,

09/11/2006 08:52:36

The tariff part of these sentences is long by modern standards. I have little sympathy for these cowardly thugs and I do think flight to Pakistan was an exacerbating circumstance deserving of a sentence uplift, hoewver I agree with those whose comments voice the sentiment, "justice done - move on".

Victims choosing punishment, calls for the death penalty, eye for an eye, flog 'em, hope they get theirs in the Bar L etc etc. These are precisely the opposite of the civilised progress towards the more inclusive, less violent society most people would want.

I have nothing but contempt for the thought process that says a group can be vilified for actions of one of their members. Boycotting corner shops? What pish is that? Before the Tallys and the Pakis shops opened 9-5 and a working man could only shop at weekends.

On the other hand all religions offend me greatly and their group delusions genuinely threaten freedom and safety. Institutions such people assemble whether churches, mosques, synagogues or theocracies are the engine of most human atrocity. Have a go at that lot by all means.

47

PowerScot,

KZN 09/11/2006 08:52:56

BGW you have given me the biggest laugh this week and its only Thursday. Do you forget that you live in a democracy? As I do? I have every right to freedom of speech just as you do. If you believe in democracy why would you want a moderator to censor me? You are typical of those who expound democracy but in fact practice selective democracy. Democracy to the point that it suits you. I do not advocate violence against any racial group, but I do get concerned when I see my heritage and culture being dissipated by people like you. You are the traitor to your people. And as for your diatribe regarding those good old chestnuts that people are beginning to get sick and tired of hearing i.e. Hitler, Stalin, etc. yawn yawn yawn, whenever faced with commentary that you do not like, your type always fall back on these. Let me remind you that those people who murdered Kriss Donald are racists and anti Scottish and are representative of peoples who down the centuries have tried to challenge the Scottish way of life, and even eradicate our culture and heritage. If you want to join them go ahead, but be prepared to be accountable with the rest of your ilk when the Scottish people awaken to the reality around them, a reality created by the likes of you. Traitor.

48

eric,

09/11/2006 08:54:23

44 Is An example of just why and how we were attacked in the 1st place ,Glad you are in a minority,otherwise we would be attacked every week ,DONT shop,

49

BGW,

09/11/2006 08:54:23

43 David BA
You are ethnic too you know , whatever group you imagine yourself to be part of.
And are whites really white? "Yellowy -pink / aspiringly brown in the summer" is a bit more accurate I think.
PC as you would have it is simply applying notions of respect across the board to all, not just to "white " males.
BTW, we, homo sapiens sapiens, are all africans anyway. Is there a bigger ethnic group?

50

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 09/11/2006 08:56:04

#34

START QUOTE FROM YOUR POST: Where is the moderator of this forum? The majority of these posts are neo-fascist thinly-veiled and openrascist tripe, encouraging racist hatred and ethnic cleansing. The murderers have been put through the courts, convicted and sent down. That is it! [END]

Thank god their is a newspaper/outlet that ALLOWS FREE SPEECH.

Why should other people's views that YOU don't agree with be BANNED.
You call people racist for their views - YOU ARE A FACIST.

FREE SPEECH.

Personally I hope the three of them get terrorised, stabbed and burnt - in that order please!

51

SJP,

09/11/2006 08:56:21

I've just read through the comments and would echo much of what BGW-34 wrote.
What the THREE did was horrific but it's depressing to read the tacky conclusions of those who hide their lowly motives behind flags of scottish nationalism, straight-talking, common-sense etc etc.
I'm no woolly liberal and I too hope they enjoy their accomodation facilities to the full, but let's show a bit of intelligence on the wider issue. I don't want a dumbed-down populist Scotland.

52

,

09/11/2006 08:57:28
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Reason:
53

Gregb,

Edinburgh 09/11/2006 08:59:18

£28k a year in HMP's Holiday camp...at taxpayers expense....some punishment...

54

Phil,

Oxford 09/11/2006 09:00:00

Who would have thought that multi-culti and immigration had a downside?

55

Andrew, Peebles,

09/11/2006 09:00:26

I have to voice my disgust at the comments of some of the posters on here who have used the murder of a young boy to give vent to their dislike of non-whites. Absolutely shameful.

These were evil criminal who happened to be Asian. Just like many evil criminals are white.

56

Brideun,

Nairn 09/11/2006 09:00:59

Prior to the removal of the death penalty, murder was an extremely rare event. A reported murder investigation anywhere in Britain was headline news and the public was kept informed in detail until the culprit was apprehended. Nowadays a murder may not even be reported in a national newspaper. Anyone who believes that the death penalty is not a deterrent will also believe cows can fly.
He who kills and does not pay lives to kill another day. Time our 'wet' politicians listened to sensible public opinion.

57

mr chips,

09/11/2006 09:01:15

40. Borderman, Borders /So in your eyes the whole of scotland is to blame,Try asking cathie jamieson why baldy was let out of prison early for a previous violent conviction .If it was,nt for her early release scheme baldy would and should still have been in prison at the time kriss was butchered.As for scotlands so called legacy,utter rubbish.

58

JG,

Fife 09/11/2006 09:01:38

Could it be that this horrendous event wasn't reported to it's fullest possibilities because of the probable reactions of people - like several of the people commenting above? Mrs Donald showed what it means to have dignity and obviously agreed with this approach.

I was horrified to hear however, that one of these murderers had been released early from prison. How many people are going to suffer before the people in charge of the justice system wake up?

59

Tam O' Shanter,

Ayrshire 09/11/2006 09:02:37

These convictions were due in no small measure to the efforts of Glasgow MP Mohammed Sarwar who arranged the extradition from Pakistan.
Well done Sir!
Hope these smirking beggars rot.

60

eric,

09/11/2006 09:04:59

55 Comment doesnt add up .Most of the asian muslim communty .Were Pleased about 9/11 .Just ask them ,They will tell you themselves,Silly boy

61

C,

Glasgow 09/11/2006 09:07:33

About time these murderers were punished for their appalling crime. Sick though that the ringleader is going to jail for the third time for a violent and out of control outrage against another human being.
I do not believe their race is a factor or that our knee jerk reactions over the past few years to introduce new legislation covering "racially aggravated" anything is anything other than an indicator of our chronic xenophobia.
These people are living here in Scotland and our citizens, all of our citizens, have been failed by a limp, pc driven legal system contriving to protect the criminal and ignore the victim. Murder has been done and their lives should be forfeit and incarceration to their ends should be their daily punishment.

62

SJP,

09/11/2006 09:08:17

PowerScot - much as I admire your very swashbuckling version of Scotland's predicament it is very niaive. You may find that sipping a small glass of Irn Bru in front of (yet another) viewing of your trusty Braveheart DVD might help.

63

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 09/11/2006 09:08:44

It so happened that this horrific RACIST Attack has been hushed up allover the UK ... in comparison to other racist murders - because h is white it has been deemed that we must not upset the multi-cultural 'harmony' that exists.

One Scotland? - One Helluva-mess??

YOU decide

64

Freedom,

09/11/2006 09:09:23

Comments 6&7#

Murder by the individual or the state is still Murder.
A civilised society does not muder the criminal what should happen is life should mean life.

65

williams,

livingston 09/11/2006 09:10:32

We need to look beyond the colour here and concentrate on the crime. These "things" were guilty of a horrendous crime on a young lad the same age as my son.
I know it's not going to happen, but is it not time that the 98% of law-abiding people in this country(of all colours) demanded the return of the death penalty for acts such as this.
There are people lying in graves today, who would have been alive if their murderers had been dealt with after their first offence.

66

Duncan in Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 09:11:22

#60 Racist. Again. Stop generalising about people on the basis of their race. You are part of the problem.

67

Duncan in Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 09:12:36

#63 Straw man. It hasn't been hushed up at all. I've been reading about it in newspapers and online every day for weeks.

68

Julie,

09/11/2006 09:13:20

This evil crime is quite unbelieveable as the horror is beyond humane capabilities , I am a mother who is constantly living in fear when my sons who go out to socialise and I fear they may meet evil and their lives may change forever, I pray for their safety and for all society that we try to live in peace. This story has affected people in different ways and I know that it has affected myself in a way that I cannot describe I feel numb and despair for the future for my sons, and their family in the future.

69

Allen,

Glasgow 09/11/2006 09:14:15

Terrible crime against humanity, how this young boy was tormented before he died. This mob come from the same elk as the "Home grown bombers". We should all be very afraid of this, what seems to be a nation wide adoption of hatred towards white christian people, they obviously have a hard time integrating or won't integrate, I wonder when people will wake up and smell the coffee before more die.

I just can't imagine what this young boy was feeling when he was stabbed and burned alive- the terror going through his mind must have been Hell- I hope he finds some peace.


The philosophy of "money is god" to these people is right-when you buy a curry or something from their shop, it wouldn't be unfair for you to consider you could be feeding terrorism in some small way. I don't wrestle with my conscious with this and decided never to buy from them ever again. This was not racist, but a well founded decision for humanity, I obviously think about the poor people in London /911 when I came to my decision and wont let my money be used for crimes against humanity.

70

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 09/11/2006 09:15:29

#67 - I am working London and Wiltshire for 3 months off and on ... until yesterday - their has not been a SINGLE mention of it South of the Border.

I have friends in Leeds and they were not even aware of Kriss.

Stephen Lawrence - saturated coverage. Not that it should not be that way - it's just that because Kriss was killed by Asians - the Government and it's friendly media (BBC etc) did not want to show that racism is a 2 way street.

Makes people all the more pee'd off with the happy UK multi-cultural family!

71

Andrew, Peebles,

09/11/2006 09:16:17

Eric, what doesn't add up?

When did you carry out your survey of Asian opinion?

(Also, fix your punctuation. It makes your witless posts unreadable)

72

eric,

09/11/2006 09:16:39

67 You should get out more !Its people like you That have done the country more harm than any communty .I think your the rascist ,Silly boy,And you can hardly have n oppinion on any community coming from a small place like edinburgh,hardly multi cultural is it ,

73

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 09/11/2006 09:17:15

You may notice as well that the BBC covered Stephen lawrence's death and other racist murders on it's 'Have Your Say' forum - attracting thousands of posts/comments.

have the allowed a similar discussion/forum for Kriss?

have they hell!

74

Borderman,

Borders 09/11/2006 09:17:55

57, mr chipps, read what I said. I said it was our country's shame. I didn't say you or I were to blame. I see the murderers of Kriss no differently from other people who have murdered for no other reason than their victim was seen as different. It makes me ashamed when I have to explain such events to visitors to our country. Sadly, we have too many such murders. I'd be happy to see such criminals locked up forever, but my response was to the racist nature of many of the posts. The question of how to punish such criminals is a different matter.

75

mr chips,

09/11/2006 09:18:30

It is not over yet, these scum through their lawyers will appeal against conviction,that will take at least two more years before we know if it has been succesfull.The scottish justice system under cathie jamieson is a complete mess, she should hang her incompetant head in shame,do the right thing and resign.

76

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09/11/2006 09:21:07
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77

Duncan in Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 09:21:50

#70 You're adding a motivation to this which is totally inevident. Bear in mind that most media in this country is privately owned. From my point of view I have been reading about this case on the BBC website every day for weeks. I see no conspiracy of silence, just a very very shocking and disgusting crime now being used as a political lever.

78

wayne bijlyeerheid,

directly above the centre of the Earth 09/11/2006 09:23:29

This is actually, almost, beyond comment.
Where do 4 people of immigrant parents get the sheer arrogance to act like the law does not exist in the country that has provided their home?
They acted like Scotland is part of the Tribal Territories of Pakistan.
If their families were deported it would make others realise that perhaps they should instil respect for the laws and mores of the host country into their children.

79

eric,

09/11/2006 09:23:53

76 Well said,I work for Gvt and we cant Play xmas music or call it Christmas now oops sorry ,Religious holiday,Because Muslims complained that it was offensive ,END

80

mr chips,

09/11/2006 09:25:53

.
Power scot 18/ well said pal.

81

Sydney,

Australia 09/11/2006 09:26:05

Interestingly there are moves over here to remove the term "multiculturalism" from the political and social arena to be replaced with the lesser used term, "Australian"
"Multiculturalism" apparently creates and encourages a sense of division between the differing societies instead of uniting the community in the common purpose of being good "Australians."
No " Minister for Multiculturism" No political correctness, just plain common sense - if you want to come and live here - be an Australian.
Knew I moved here for a reason....
And for all those politically correct doubters - it's not racist to ask people to behave as the society they have chosen to live in.

82

The Aberdonian,

Glasgow 09/11/2006 09:27:33

For all those who are talking about hanging let me point out one little problem. The murder would have not have been a capital murder under the 1956 Homicide Act which created the categories of capital murder and non-capital or "simple" murder.

To qualify for the rope under this act the murder had to fall into one of the categories:-

1- Murder committed while resisting arrest, ecaping from lawful custody or of a police or prison officer in the execution of their duty.

Clearly the murder does not qualify there.

2- Murder committed in the furtherance of theft.

Nothing was stolen to the best of my knowledge from Kriss Donald except his life.

3- Murder committed with either explosives or firearms.

Again the murder was not committed with either firearms or explosives.

4- Murder committed on two or more separate occassions.

There was only one victim.

I am always surprised at how the string 'em up brigade tend to forget the 1956 act.

Quite shocked at the racist bile being written here. Deportations. These thugs are UK citizens, although if you can maybe deport one to where he came from - one was born in Huddersfield. Although the English would hardly thank us for adding to their already overcrowded system.

And what the heck has the murder got to do with the "War on Terror" and 9/11!

83

Andrew, Peebles,

09/11/2006 09:28:30

Eric, is your keyboard broken?

84

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 09/11/2006 09:29:11

#77 - Wake up Duncan!

Their have even been reporting restrictions issued on this case. A friend of mine works for a Scottish media outlet and they received a "notification" from the Home Office.

You cannot see a conspiracy of silence because their is not one - you are deliberately wording your view in order to make a counter view appear hysterical.

Simply pointing out facts - why has it barely been reporte south of the Border?

Why are you so fast to say it is being used as a 'political lever' - I think you will find that the commonly held view comes from many Scots who vote for many parties - including Labour, Tory, SNP, Liberals.

You are the extreme on the PC left it would seem - not a voice of reason as you might like others to think of you as.

85

eric,

09/11/2006 09:30:14

83 need a scrambling machine

86

Zoosh,

Edinburgh 09/11/2006 09:31:20

Media coverage was restricted on a few occasions by the legal system until the undefined extradition process was arranged and the accuses captured. This was not a striaghforward issue. Thanks to Mr Sarwar MP, otherwise these men would be living in freedom in Pakistan an laughing at us for getting away with it. "Baldy'" attempted bribie on Pakistani police confirmed blood was on his hands. "RIP Kriss, Scotland won't forget you"

87

bupf,

09/11/2006 09:33:14

Murder is never good , regardless of the motive. Let's hope all you people commenting here care just as much about all the other weekly murders happening in Glasgow.

88

eric,

09/11/2006 09:35:18

All due respect But most of the Murders and crime down south IS caused by asian muslim people ,Thats a fact Not a rascist comment,

89

,

09/11/2006 09:37:03
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90

NFJ,

bo'ness 09/11/2006 09:37:56

mohammed sarwar had a closed door meeting with the three killers of kriss before they fled to their homeland.he is now been seen as some sort of hero for getting them back. johndee 52 well said its time for the whole of the uk to stand up and say enough.RIP KRISS GOD BLESS

91

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 09/11/2006 09:38:17

#87

I think the majority here DO care in general about the breakdown of law and order in scoiety and the causes of it, including all murders ...

But a lot of the friction on the forums comes from the Left-PC brigade belittling the Centre/Right brigade.

Perhaps if a common-sense approach to debating took place - rather than shouting down a view that you do not agree with then we might all get on better here ... but their is as much chance of that as a successful ONE SCOTLAND campaign!

92

Bystander,

Edinburgh 09/11/2006 09:38:53

I wholly agree with all the heartfeft views re. sentencing etc,but be careful.Gordon Jackson the Labour MSP for Govan who no doubt represents a lot of you thinks you are not being politically correct.
By the way,it wasn't his son who was murdered.

93

,

09/11/2006 09:39:09
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94

Duncan in Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 09:41:34

#84 Thanks for the name calling. I've been called worse. (And you complain in #91 about the quality of the debate! Hypocrite.) You are quite evidently intent on seeing a conspiracy - legal reporting restrictions imposed because of the extradition proceedings are hardly evidence of it though.

My one and only problem here is that too many people are extrapolating this case, and the five men now convicted correctly of racially aggravated offences, to the whole racial group to which they belong. This is pig ignorance. Stupidity. Bloody mindedness. It doesn't help anyone.

A comparison has been made with cases of white people killing black people. Tell me this: when a white person is convicted, do you then assume that all white people are guilty of the same?

Of course you do not. Then why should you do the converse here?

95

,

09/11/2006 09:43:15
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96

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 09/11/2006 09:45:00

What was the name that offended you Duncan?

Who said all Asians were guily? Certainly you will not find me saying that?

Please feel free to find that line in a previous post.

You are the one generalising in your posts here today - that anyone holding a view you do not agree with is a racist.

You can't have it both ways - now can you?

97

Alex.,

09/11/2006 09:45:20

If convicted criminals have dual nationality the British nationality should be cancelled and the criminal returned to the other nation having first served their full sentence in Britain. This is not racist. Both Canada and Australia have returned convicted sex offenders to this country.

98

eric,

09/11/2006 09:45:27

93 Thanks john,This is happening and its coming from the top cheese,My neice goes to a catholic school and its mixed race,Most of Muslim,Now there is talk of dropping the name and calling it a muslim name ,A lot of folk will call you a liar as ive been called or rascist ,like they did Enoch powell,Its happening on a huge scale ,Im only doing what i know to be right and i feel good about not shopping in asian muslim shops ,Its my choice ,Not a rascist one based on colour ,Your comments are spot on .

99

JUSTICE FOR ALL,

glasgow 09/11/2006 09:45:40

#52 well spoken that says it all

100

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 09/11/2006 09:49:59

To Eric 98 and everyone else ... I ignore the PC bollocks and say it as I find it - tough if it does not fit with the wooly New Labour/Liberal luvvey land they have foisted on us.

101

Ally,

Yorkshire 09/11/2006 09:50:18

I don't think we should ascribe the inhumanity of these three to the rest of the Asian community, in much the same way that I'm not an IRA bomber just because I'm white.

With that in mind, why not commit them for a whole-life sentence with their bodies to be fed to the pigs at the end of it. Simple really.

102

,

09/11/2006 09:52:23
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103

Duncan in Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 09:53:34

#95 "since the start of time"

Ah yes, the old flag of convenience called "tradition". How far back do you go for yours? Just far enough back to justify your prejudices, and no further? That's the "traditional" approach.

Since you mention it, did you know that Halloween was moved in the 11th century from May to October by the Catholic pope in order to swallow up the existing festival of Samhain, as part of his successful plan to stamp down on the "traditional" pagan religions?

"since the start of time" indeed.

104

Edward,

09/11/2006 09:53:43

#73 Re the coverage accross the UK, think you should be corrected on this point. The BBC does NOT report anything that occurs north of the border and will NOT have anything regarding subjects north of the border on there 'Have your Say' or havnt you realised that?
Example Tony Blairs fudge about being Scottish-nada, The poll that had majority of Scots wanting independence - nada
So please dont start playing the race card about this not being mentioned in the rest of the UK, have news for you -NOTHING IS!

105

eric,

09/11/2006 09:54:15

100 Well said

106

,

09/11/2006 09:54:48
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107

SJP,

09/11/2006 09:54:51

Much as I find some 'allies' well-intentioned if a little misguided, the whole current populist tide and it's constant ranting about the 'PC brigade' is a dangerous development and nothing good will come of it. Talk Sport and Sky News are notable mouthpieces of the underclass foot soldiers. Sad.

Surely people who are neither 'PC' nor thick, reactionnaries must have a place ?

108

bupf,

09/11/2006 09:54:51

93. John .

Spot on Man, if you dont call it the festive break and use a term like christmas you get arrested.

ffs. Give us a break you stupid stupid asshole.

109

Duncan in Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 09:55:54

#102 Thanks for recognising the valid point, but you did not respond to it, you just expanded on your tarring of all muslims with the same brush. Why don't we tar all white people with the same brush? Why isn't a racist murder by a white person evidence that white people "hate our freeedoms"?

110

Duncan in Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 09:57:17

#108 Hahaha. You get arrested if you use a term like Christmas? You're either deluded or a scheming liar.

111

NFJ,

bo'ness 09/11/2006 09:58:30

the headlines in the press a couple of weeks ago was you should inergate with me. the statment of the muslim woman on wearing her veil. thats is what they think that the people of this country should blend in with them not the other way round.if they are not happy in this country get out and stay out .

112

eric,

09/11/2006 09:58:42

93 spot on

113

GP,

09/11/2006 09:59:45

Time for a real debate on where the politicians are leading us all. These thugs no matter their skin colour are representative of the current state of affairs in our inner cities. Time to remove pc from the debate and get it all out. Tne police I believe accoring to Bashir Maan last night on TV were afraid to do anything because of the pc brigade.
Wahe up Scotland and shake up Scotland.

114

Edward,

09/11/2006 10:00:33

#106 Your such a racist twat!, This murder has nothing to to with the Asian community at all and that should be remembered. It was murder commited by an out and out thug, who used race as the instrument of his barbarity. There are white people equally like him! Its about time racists like you grew up

115

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 09/11/2006 10:00:51

#104 - You are almost right - but their has been the occasional (very rare) occurence of an issue which is mainly Scottish that has made 'Have Your Say' - Scottish Regiments for example.

Point is a RACE MURDER like this should get equal coverage by the BBC - after all at the moment it is supposed to be British Broadcasting Corporation - which includes Scotland - we pay into their black hole as well you know!!!

It is simply not convenient for the 'establishment' who cannot in my view stomach any criticism of their multi-cultural 'heaven' - which to a number of people is 'hell' ...

You cannot 'wish' away people's feelings on a subject (including race) just because you don't like their views.

116

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 09/11/2006 10:01:31

- STILL WAITING DUNCAN .....

117

bupf,

09/11/2006 10:02:12

Heres how it works folks.

When immigrants arrive , unless they have money , they tend to get stuck in with our own uneducated , working class. They see the incomers as strange and exotic, of course they wont take the time to get to know them or work out their ways, they ill simply see them as a threat to their way of life. Of course, the immigrants arent stupid and will try to get the hell out of the hellhole they are living in as soon as possible. Meantime , the local council will make allowances for the incomers in terms of language and accomodate their culture and beliefs. this leads to more insecurity from our uneducated working classes.

PC ? Not me mate.

This murder is awful , bloody awful. But why dont I see this outcry at all the other murders?

118

abracadabra,

09/11/2006 10:04:53

Now that the trial of the three murderers is finished will the crown office now look at bringing the other three accused to trial, I mean the three defence agents who have made great efforts to mislead the jury and been extraordinary sparse with the truth knowing full well the background of the three murderers.
The legal profession is an evil in Scottish society that has to be remedied and quickly

119

eric,

09/11/2006 10:06:40

Muslims are repused by our way of life ,And they would tell the PC lot that defend them to their faces as well,Your wasting your Breath Covering up the cracks,Would you also call a muslim rascist for not wanting to integrate ,I would.

120

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 09/11/2006 10:06:44

#114 Edward - I think you are being an itolerant 'twat' yourself and 'sexist' into the bargain 'twat' is a very derogatory expression which women find VERY offensive.

I think John #106 is referring to violent and extreme Muslims who want to blow us away and replace Western values with their own extreme views - he is not sayng EVERY Asian or Muslim in this country is to blame ... and I think you know this too.

121

Dougie - Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 10:07:00

Some of the earlier posters have been accused of being racist. Before holier than thou liberals fall over themselves to assert their conceited moral superiority over the rest of us, please consider:

Had some young Scots in Pakistan murdered a local lad in the same way, the entire country would be in uproar. There would be riots, demonstrations and lynching. So why is it surprising that Scots are outraged that it's happened here? Why are we expected to show tolerance whereas the rest of the world does not? Isn't that racist in itself to expect that white people should have a different moral standard from Asians?

If it had been whites that murdered an Asian in the same circumstances in Glasgow, it would certainly have been world news whereas the Donald murder was hardly reported outside of Scotland and not at all outside of UK. Either Muslims murdering whites is not considered newsworthy or there is a conspiracy of silence by the press. Either situation is a cause for alarm.

It is true that this murder was committed by several individuals only however it's not an isolated incident in the sense that a large portion of the Muslim community here hates the rest of us and lower level violence is common place. Although it's unfair to hold the entire Muslim community to blame for the actions of a few, it's telling that with the honourable exception of Mr Sarwar, from Muslim community leaders who are always so vocal whenever we arouse their displeasure, we've not heard a peep.

122

nutmeg,

glasgow 09/11/2006 10:08:25

all this reactionary stuff makes me proud to be scottish i must say.

but i'd like to point out to you flag waving folk that you're barking up the wrong bigotry - these killers were NEDS. who happened to be asian.

burn the young! string em up!

123

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 09/11/2006 10:09:37

I like your politics Nutmeg!!! (ha-ha-ha)

124

bupf,

09/11/2006 10:10:41

122.

:) spot on hen.

125

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 09/11/2006 10:10:57

On a more serious note .... they were more than Neds ... they were cleverer as one managed to runa very sophisticated credit card scheme earning hundereds of thousands of pounds ... shame such a clever criminal brain is wasted!

126

eric,

09/11/2006 10:11:39

The PC lot .Are just scared little people,Who really like sitting on fence ,Muslims would disagree with them also.

127

Chloe,

Pollokshields 09/11/2006 10:13:54

Yes, I live here and I'm proud to as a white woman. Never seena gang fight here, never been hassled, want my kids to go to school here and learn about other cultures. Any of you lot live here? If not shut up about what 'muslims' think when you don't know any.
These murderers (not Muslims, not inside a mosque in years) were put away thanks to my Scots Asian neighbours who reported their suspicions to the police and a Muslim MP Mohammed Sarwar who got them back from Pakistan. The BNP tried to start riots here and were sent back by whites and Asians, including Kriss Donald's family.
Scots law caused the reporting restrictions and the BBC is challenging this.

128

PowerScot,

KZN 09/11/2006 10:15:39

SJP,

Thank you for your condescending remarks. They have been duly noted and filed...in the garbage bin.

129

Jonathan333,

England 09/11/2006 10:15:51

My grandfather was a Scot and came down to England as a young man in the early 1900s to get work. My grandmother was English. I have always lived and worked in England. I will never be Scottish but I know where my grandfather lived and the people who live there still remember his children (my father and his brothers). I am proud of my Scottish association. But to many Scots, as I am English I am probably perceived as "the enemy".

Yesterday I was visited by a salesman - his name was Tim and when I spoke to him on the phone earlier on in the week he sounded as English as me. When he arrived at my home he was as black as the ace of spades but by culture he was English and I just treated him as another Englishman which he is.

My point? You never know people's background until you get to know them. Dont judge people because of how they look or sound - they may not be what they seem. Judge them on their values.

These guys were appalling thugs, just like a lot of gang thugs in all cultures around the world. Sure they were motivated by race, but I suspect it could just as well have been someone "on their patch" or anyone in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I have always been against capital punishment but I am beginning to think that we need to start ridding ourselves of these sick people of all cultures and colours and not bang them up for a long time. An eye of an eye, then everyone can get on with their lives again.

130

PowerScot,

KZN 09/11/2006 10:17:01

Hey Chloe,

Wake up and smell the coffee.

131

walter,

09/11/2006 10:18:22

#77 I have been reading about this case on the BBC website every day for weeks.
Duncan you have just hit the nail on the head you have been reading about it for weeks, This horrendous crime was committed march 04 yet you have only been reading about it on the BBC web for weeks.
I have lived in England for 10 years now and it was not covered at all until recently.
I have already stated I was accused of lying when I mentioned this case as nobody else who there at the time had heard of it and their logic was if such a crime that I was describing had happened then it would have been all over the news.

132

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 09/11/2006 10:19:27

Chloe - I think most people in Scotland (myself in Dundee for example) - have an Asian community. I have to say that I was once abused (verbally) walking down the Hilltown by 3 Asian youths - all I did was look in their direction .. it seemed that was enough.

Now of course - whites do the same. It's more of a chav/ned thing but in the case of these three scumbags it was far, far worse - they are killers - racist killers.

I'd be interested if you could share more about Scots law causing reporting resitrictions on the BBC and the challenge .. did seem to stop the Scottish media doing a fairly good job of reporting on the story from when it happened to yesterday. The BBC in England virtually ignored the case until yesterday.

133

,

09/11/2006 10:20:42
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134

,

09/11/2006 10:24:57
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135

Rab,

Edinburgh 09/11/2006 10:25:20

Lets' not forget the man who worked for the extradition of these three thugs back to the UK from Pakistan, Mr Sarwar, is an asian. This man deserves the utmost respect for what he has achieved. Having watched last nights news report on this brutal crime, I understand threats were made against him and his family for the involvment he had with this case. To me this proves there are still thugs out there, no matter what race or crede and are just as dangerous as the three wasters who have been locked away. Lets hope they are never released from prison.

136

NFJ,

bo'ness 09/11/2006 10:25:34

do you notice the lack of posts from the ethnic groups.no supprise there then

137

Dougie - Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 10:25:48

Chloe - 127
Surveys of public opinion are more valuable for judging larger trends than a few personal acquaintances. It's not necessary to live in Pollockshields, there’s a problem all over Britain.

As for reporting restrictions, the Scotsman's done a fair job of reporting the case which proves that whatever restrictions were in place were definitely not the reason this case wasn't reported more widely.

It's a fair point that these guys may not have been practicing Muslims - it's safer to say that the issue is racism by people of Pakistani origin against the rest of us who often use religion as a badge of their underlying ethnic allegiance.

138

GP,

09/11/2006 10:27:04

127# well said .
However I do not believe that Scots law stopped this being aired nationaly. I saw several articles on BBC scotland but not on the national news why?
I was provided with many items on other racially motivated murders from down south of the opposite kind ie. white against black.
It would be interesting to see via fredom of information the news directors decisions as to why this murder was not aired nationally as much as it should have been. Surely it was more noteworthy than some of the utter tripe that has been reported at a national level.
Finally I want real news reported not kept from me decided by someone who thinks they know what is best. I also do not want government intervention on news reporting which I think took place on this crime. My view is that this was such a henious crime that it could cause serious problems in the south and therefore was suppressed.

139

Sad to the Bone,

09/11/2006 10:30:17

Eric, my heart hopes that you are playing devil's advocate sadly my head tells me that you are a not so mindless racist who is cleverly manipulating this tragic event to meet your own ends. People lets not forget that this tragic event that revolts us all should bring us closer togther to drive this type of thuggery out of society. The Mulsim community in Glasgow and Pakistan did everything it could to bring these people to justice, can the same the said for the Stephen Lawrence trial. Perhaps us "whites" should clean up our own act before looking to critisise others. My heart and best wishes go to all associated with this abomination.

140

eric,

09/11/2006 10:31:35

133 Well said,Im Chosing NOT to use any of the Asian muslim shops ,Simply because It was found out that Most of the Terrorists families had shops warehouses etc ,And im Not going to finance the killings,I havent been to any of their shops since 9/11.Like a lot of Descent people i know .The PC lot can get into bed with them all they want ,They will just use you lot as Puppets to get what they want,My Choice is not to shop ,

141

Sad to the Bone,

09/11/2006 10:32:18

NFJ, perhaps they are seeking to rise above this hate fuelled diatribe, perhaps they are sick of being generalised about, but more likely they read The Herald

142

Fiona,

Edinburgh 09/11/2006 10:33:41

Some of this makes me embarrased to be Scottish. Apart from the disgusting racism - can't people spell or punctuate correctly any longer? I would have thought the Scotsman readership might be a little more literate than these posts would demonstrate.

143

wayne bijlyeerheid,

09/11/2006 10:35:49

There has been no coverage of this murder in the southern press, or the BBC in England, until this week.


Duncan in Edinburgh 103
Samhain has always been at the beginning of November it was the Gaidhelic new year, the feast of "All Saints" (Nov1st) preceded by "All Hallows Eve", was designed to smother it.

144

eric,

09/11/2006 10:37:33

Scotsman is Gutter press Dont get upset about it ,

145

bupf,

09/11/2006 10:37:47

This is the web Fiona , the most important thing is to be understood. blx to punctuation. other than that , im totally with you.

146

bupf,

09/11/2006 10:40:55

Kill me now..

One good thing about muslim culture is the lack of reliance on Alchohol.

On that issue alone , they could teach us a lot.

147

Andrew, Peebles,

09/11/2006 10:41:05

140. Yes, had Asian owned shops in Scotland not offered to finance terrorist attacks, 9/11 would never have been possible. Keep up the boycot!

You are an imbecile.

148

Duncan in Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 10:41:46

#133 If I may contradict you, I think that was a very intelligent post.

Common sense, as you say, leads one to learn from experience and say that if one person of a particular type does something, it is more likely that another will too.

There probably are more asian people who are muslims in this country than there are white muslims.

There probably are more muslims who support so-called "Islamic terrorism" than there are non-muslims who support it.

But that doesn't lead to the conclusion that all asians, or all muslims, support islamic terrorism.

In my view, the islamic faith is as deluded as any other. It is also a younger faith than, say, Christianity, which has had centuries of theological development, has been through horrific phases like the inquisition, and through significant changes like the reformation. Islam is an unreconstructed religion which still claims a great deal of control over people's lives. It is therefore ripe for exploitation by those political forces, like Al Qaeda, which have specific terrorist agenda.

But that does not mean it is either fair or sensible to equate islam with terrorism. The terrorists are abusing the religion, just like the IRA did. People who chose to blindly follow a faith may be misguided, but they are not guilty of anything worse than that.

It is depressing to see people regurgitate the lies of Blair and Bush in this forum. "They hate our way of life" must be the most pernicious lie ever told to a nation. They do not hate our way of life. They have political aims and they further them with violence. Just like we do.

149

Duncan in Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 10:42:19

#143 That's precisely what I said!

150

eric,

09/11/2006 10:42:21

145 Thinks every one in Scotland is a BIGOT,We cant all be wrong ,And like i said ,My custom was missed ,The asian shop closed 2 yr after 9/11 END

151

Dougie - Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 10:42:23

Fiona, 143
The correct spelling is embarrassed. The disgusting racism here involves a particularly brutal racist murder against a random Scottish teenager. I think Pakistanis have more to be embarrassed about, don't you?

152

Captain Fantastic,

Glasgow, UK 09/11/2006 10:43:00

Last night my flight from Luton to Glasgow was delayed because four young asian men decided to play silly b*****s and wind up their fellow passengers. This resulted in some passengers refusing to fly, the men being arrested and the rest of us off the plane while it was searched. Now, immature? - certainly. Bloody stupid? Absolutely. But what else could the Captain and police do? Apologise for getting you blown up? I hope they get jail time for that stunt. It's time asians recognised that they are either part of the problem or part of the solution.

153

mr chips,

09/11/2006 10:43:02

52. John Dee, Glasgow / You missed out jack mconnell in your rant,he and his incompetant
ministers are totaly responsible for the money wasting tv ad,s, not salmond ,not sherridan, and not kennedy.get your facts right ,dont try and blame the people who are not part of the money wasting
numpty led executive. The blame lay,s firmly with new labour,and if you are as you say ,sick of it ,then simply dont vote for them.

154

PowerScot,

KZN 09/11/2006 10:45:19

Guys, guys, come on, lets be careful what we say on this site and how we say it. People like BGW and his cohorts are so neurotic they think that there is a Blackshirt or Brownshirt lurking behind every lampost, or that anyone who disagrees with them has read the manual of Serbian Nationalism. As for poor old schoolmam Fiona, she is more concerned with our spelling, punctuation and sentence construction than the reality that exists in our beloved multiracial society, cunningly crafted by political bodies under the guise of freedom and democracy.

155

eric,

09/11/2006 10:45:38

147 ,Like i said Im doing my Bit ,The shop did close 2 yr after 9/11,

156

Fidelio,

Edinburgh 09/11/2006 10:46:52

I say let them out to take their best chance.

Myself and other law abiding tax paying citizens will now have to foot the bill for these animals whilst they relax and put their feet up in our cosy PC jails.

They will get good meals, heat, light, entertainment, exercise and education.

If this had been my child or brother or a member of my family they would be praying for a long sentence because I would be waiting for them at the gates when they got out.

157

Duncan in Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 10:48:16

#152

Last night four young white men decided to play silly b*****s and smashed the front window af a car parked outside my house. Now, immature? - certainly. Bloody stupid? Absolutely. ... It's time whites recognised that they are either part of the problem of part of the solution.

Does that last sentence make any sense to you? Of course not. Just like the last sentence of post #152 did not. To extrapolate from one small group to an entire race is just stupid.

158

nutmeg,

glasgow 09/11/2006 10:55:57

#127 Chloe: the voice of reason. someone who actually knows what they are talking about.

watch as the ignorant ignore what she said.

159

Fiona,

Edinburgh 09/11/2006 10:56:26

143 - Oops!
154 - It's not that I am MORE concerned with spelling, punctuation, etc, than the 'reality that exixts. . .', it was just a comment. However, you will see from just a scan of the posts that those who can't spell, punctuate, etc., seem more likely to hold racist or reactionary views. Could improving general standards of education in Scotland (for all)be important in building a society that is more harmonious and less beset by violence and intolerance? Just a thought . . .
p.s., 'Schoolmam' was a bit unnecessary, don't you think?

160

Norman,

09/11/2006 10:57:13

You have to laugh. My post suggesting that there might have been some quiet censoring of the images of the accused during the trial has been deleted. (Oh the irony) And yet there are many posts inciting violence and murder on here.

Let's get things in proportion eh.

161

Arthur,

09/11/2006 10:57:46

Here we go again, the good Christians hang em high Brigade crawl out of the wood work. This is an horrific
tragic crime, the perpetrators have received punishment, which in my view should have been their natural life, but it is a good stiff sentence, which we end up paying for.
Death by any means is to good for them, they should be on public display every day so they can feel and see
the public revulsion all decent reasonable peolpe feel
for ignorant bigots like them, and eric.

162

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 09/11/2006 11:00:22

I wonder if their was a referendum on immigration policy in the UK what would be the outcome?

163

eric,

09/11/2006 11:00:41

159 So Glad People Like this are of the Minority ,
Their veiws themselves are rascist ,They just can see past their own nose .Oh well cant win them all ,

164

Stu99,

edinburgh 09/11/2006 11:00:46

Message boards such as these are an absolute waste of time and serve no purpose whatsoever. It's cheap newspaper gimmickery.

165

bupf,

09/11/2006 11:01:30

fiona dnt wrrybout it-

166

Fidelio,

Edinburgh 09/11/2006 11:01:47

Fiona #159

Yes thats correct Fiona because during the last 100 years its only the illiterate that have extreme views, commit crime and are generally a nuisance to society!!!???

Are you on any unprescibed medication at the moment by any chance?

What a plum.

167

bupf,

09/11/2006 11:02:08

punctuation bigot that you are..

168

eric,

09/11/2006 11:02:52

Jesus died for his own sins not mine.

169

bupf,

09/11/2006 11:03:10

164. Nihilist. Only breathing and reproduction serve a purpose.

170

Shabanijok,

The Lions Den 09/11/2006 11:06:24

Here is a clue for all who seek enlightenment,
In the lions den, the boy-kiddies get to pull "pet" animals around using piano-wire, get to throw stones at forgeiners with impunity, practice such Olympic sports as gobbing on each other, get to back-hand their little sisters for practice for later life and get to attendschool or not, whichever they choose.
All this I have witnessed and never a parental sanction against this behaviour seen.
Now why should these abominations of the human spieces have any qualms on taking the life of a young boy not of their own.
To the Religiously, Culturally, Ethinically, Politically and Arborially Correct Ostriches out there and on the comments board, these executioners still have 72 Virgins to look forward to.
The family of Kriss Donald look only into the void of irretrievable loss.

171

Arthur,

09/11/2006 11:07:18

164 Gimmick they may be, but they allow a safety valve for the ignorant, maggots like eric to crawl out of the woodwork and let of their verbal diorreah. I know I've spelt it wrong

172

eric,

09/11/2006 11:11:04

172
The gvt wouldnt employ a rascist or Bigot ,mmm .
Thats put an end to that arthur hasnt it .Silly person

173

,

09/11/2006 11:11:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
174

bupf,

09/11/2006 11:11:55

diahorrea.

Eric, I implore you , get a life, you will regret it on your deathbed.

175

Duncan in Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 11:12:00

#171 These guys are not martyrs according to the muslim faith. They therefore have no virgins to look forward to. At least think it through.

176

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 09/11/2006 11:13:46

Virgins are over-rated

177

,

09/11/2006 11:14:12
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178

bupf,

09/11/2006 11:14:56

And the fact that they dont believe in Mohammed should at least be taken in to account. Nah ? Oh well, suit yourself.

179

Fiona,

Edinburgh 09/11/2006 11:15:21

166, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm just making the suggestion that if general standards of education were higher (add in housing improvements, more equality of access to healthcare, social support etc.), perhaps we wouldn't have a society where various factions find excuses for violence. Leaving the race issue aside, there has been much reasearch done which shows a positive association between low standards of education and general social deprivation and higher incidence of social/health problems such as alcoholism, coronary heart disease, and, yes, violent crime.
I am not saying that only those with lower levels of education commit violent crimes or hold extreme views, simply that the association exists between social deprivation and a whole host of undesirable effects.
However I'm straying off the point, and I've work to do . . . sorry.

180

Duncan in Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 11:15:21

#174 I feel sorry for you, that you can hate people you don't even know, just on the basis of their religious affiliation.

You say "i want all muslims dead".

You disgust me.

181

eric,

09/11/2006 11:15:57

175
I also dont shop in BOOTS chemist gets that makes me a REAL rascist,The only Diahorrea here is coming vFrom your mouth ,You will never be understood ,Grow up,

182

DJ,

09/11/2006 11:17:39

I don't think it matters whether this was a racially motivated murder or not. A dead victim is a dead victim and a murderer is a murderer. The details of this murder are so horrific as to justifiy execution. Because that is denied us by unjustifiable interference by Europe and spineless UK politicians the penalty should have been life imprisonment meaning they would never get out.

183

Arthur,

09/11/2006 11:20:40

173 I am at a loss as to how this is an answer of any kind to 172????
178 I have now issued a slimwah against you, infidel pigdog

184

Dougie - Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 11:21:55

178 - Jeff
No, he was a paedophile, he married a six year old and consummated the marriage when she was nine.

185

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 09/11/2006 11:24:23

Before anybody wonders ...

We should be allowed to say what we want about religion/gods without fear of being slaughtered.

Say Jesus was this and that and you get a look of disgust/pity etc from Christians

Say it about Allah or Mohammed etc - lordy lordy - watch out Mr Rushdie - they are coming after me now!!

186

luke,

nova scotia canada 09/11/2006 11:24:48

This sort of garbage has been going on for hundreds of years. Please do not fall into the trap of hating the asian people or any other race for that matter.
You would then be doing exactly what the unseen powers that be want you to do.
Read a book called "Pawns in the Game " by William Guy Carr and you will see for youselves where we are all heading, if we dont waken up and stick together.
Eric i think that you are living under a rock, and i do not say this to offend you.

187

Arthur,

09/11/2006 11:25:10

182 I think I make a lot more sense than you
"I don't shop in boots" what the hell has that got to do with anything.
I suspect you don't shop atall get your little women to do it for you don't you? It's womens work after all init
shoppin I mean.

188

,

09/11/2006 11:25:33
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189

,

09/11/2006 11:25:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
190

eric,

09/11/2006 11:25:55

184 Sad ,NEXT

191

bupf,

09/11/2006 11:26:05

Nutter on the bus , nutter on the bus.

Boycott Boots the Chemist.

192

bupf,

09/11/2006 11:27:20

189. I came to Nederlands to murder their youth. I have a few to go though.

193

Pete McClelland,

Kirkcudbright 09/11/2006 11:30:22

On hearing of the death sentence handed down to Saddam Hussein, Margaret Becket was in full aggreement. However this vile hypocrite refuses to even discuss the death sentence being a possibility in this country. Our EU masters won't allow it.
One either agrees with capital punishment or one doesn't.
These three disgusting murderers have been found guilty beyond any doubt. I agree with capital punishment in cases such as this.
There you go Margaret, it's easy.

194

,

09/11/2006 11:30:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
195

bill, england,

09/11/2006 11:30:50

Who's going to get the 200 today?

196

eric,

09/11/2006 11:31:52

187
You dont offend me at all .You are entitled to your oppinion Like im entitled not to shop in their shops ,Its NOT a crime ,And its NOT a rascist choice ,My own family are of different faiths and we get along just fine,

197

bupf,

09/11/2006 11:32:33

me

198

bupf,

09/11/2006 11:32:41

shoite

199

bupf,

09/11/2006 11:32:52

YES

200

bill, england,

09/11/2006 11:32:55

200?

201

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 09/11/2006 11:33:18

I SAY HANG MURDERERS

Let's have a day of votes for the British Public

1. Death Sentence
2. Membership of EU
3. Immigration

Suspect the ticks would be

1. FOR
2. AGAINST
3. STRICT CONTROLS

202

Pete McClelland,

Kirkcudbright 09/11/2006 11:34:03

190, so John in the 70's 80's and 90's we had a lot of good Protestants and Catholics going over to Northern Ireland to give a good sorting out did we?
To sort out the 'bad ones'?

203

bill, england,

09/11/2006 11:34:07

bupf. you only get one go, so you're disqualified with 200 and 201.

204

bupf,

09/11/2006 11:34:12

multi-culturalism and racist.

Foina , are you proud of me.

205

Duncan in Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 11:34:14

#190 I hope you find someone with enough patience in your life to explain to you why calling for the death of all muslims on the back of what a tiny minority of them do is not just wrong, it's stupid.

206

Pete McClelland,

Kirkcudbright 09/11/2006 11:35:39

Jeff #203.
I'll vote for you mate

207

,

09/11/2006 11:36:17
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208

,

09/11/2006 11:38:00
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209

Fiona,

Edinburgh 09/11/2006 11:38:18

bupf, yes dear, very good. Gold star.

210

bill, england,

09/11/2006 11:38:33

bupf, I'll be waiting. ah've a hoose in the lalands.

211

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 09/11/2006 11:39:49

I have been accused of having that agenda but I am too busy - though it does appeal to me to see someone honest in politics and say it lik it is ...

Someone who spoke a fair amount of truth and sense was Peter Hitchin of the Daily Mail (me thinks) ... he is as right wing as they come but he was learned, eloquent and got mixed reactions from the Question Time audience .. for some stuff they jeered him and others they clapped loudly.

We need more honesty in politics not just Labour crap being foisted onto us because they think it's good for the UK.

Let's sort out basic problems first.

212

Encephalon,

Limbo 09/11/2006 11:40:19

Anyone else think "Duncan in Edinburgh and "BUPF" are one and the same person-both tree-huggers who spout the same leftie nonsense and both seem to spend all day on these forums?

Get a job you wasters or perhaps you are working-no doubt part of the race relations industry!


Your tofu and lentils must be getting cold!

213

Pete McClelland,

Kirkcudbright 09/11/2006 11:40:41

Thats right John we didnae have planes being flown into buildings. We had them planting hidden bombs near war memorials so they could kill women and children. Very brave

214

,

09/11/2006 11:41:28
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215

,

09/11/2006 11:42:31
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216

Arthur,

09/11/2006 11:43:21

I do not defend these vile butchers, I defend all those who consider themselves human. The death penalty only appeases vengeful nutters and reduces the rest of us to the same level as the murderers. I am well aware that ther is probably a popular majority in favour
of this barbarism, possibly most of them church going
god fearing good christians.
It won't bring Kriss back, It won't banish the pain and loss his family feel. It will solve nothing.
These sub humans do not deserve a quick humane death. Their death should start now and last for the rest of their natural life. They should be made to feel
the revulsion, and disgust of the rest of decent society.

217

bupf,

09/11/2006 11:45:00

I have a 'king GREAT job encephalon.

218

NFJ,

bo'ness 09/11/2006 11:45:17

john i agree with you whole heartly.the familes of these 3 killers shoud be thrown out of the country

219

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 09/11/2006 11:45:58

Let these three scumbags be hung from George Square and watch them do the "Tyburn Jig"

... that would send a chill down a few spines - perhaps a warning to the next would be killers of innocent children.

220

Pete McClelland,

Kirkcudbright 09/11/2006 11:46:01

John, I'm not defending anyone. I loath all religion. I'm trying to make a valid point. It's not a different ballgame. Terrorists kill people no matter what their daft religion tells them. Violent disgusting murder such as the one we are discussing deserves the extreme penalty.

221

bupf,

09/11/2006 11:47:33

And if you had been watching closely the webmaster here has restricted us to post in one name only so away with your conspiratorial (Fiona) nonsense.

222

karenw,

09/11/2006 11:48:06

Press censorship is wrong regardless of the reasons. The Bolshevik Broadcasting Company has censored this trial reporting until sentencing for the reason that it provides evidence that Multiculturalism does not work ; and the BBC's own internal inquiry revealed gross bias towards this perverted ideology.

The crime was premeditated and carefully planned and then executed in the most ruthless and callous manner. It was explicitly racist and not just "gang fighting" as the BBC would have us believe.

The method of execution was barbaric. The child was restrained whilst being stabbed repeatedly and then burnt alive. Thia is relatively common in Pakistan and India where dousing people in fuel and setting it alight is one of the most frequent methods of killing. And many of the perpetrators escape justice by brining the Police just as the main culprit tried to do in this case (he offered the Pakistan Police £200,000 not to arrest him). This is similar to the beheading of the 14 year old assyrian Christian boy in Iraq last week.

Both of these racist executions, demonstrate a level of baseness and barbarity which is virtually unprecedented in the West. Whilst it would be preposterous to say that all Moslems are violent, nevertheless, we must remember that there exists in their society, a relatively large number of uncivilised, primitive, violent savages.

And we must also ask the question, from where did the murderers get £200,000 with which to try to bribe the police in Pakistan?

223

Miss H,

09/11/2006 11:48:40

Where would they have been deported to Bruce 4?

224

eric,

09/11/2006 11:50:01

224 well said

225

Steve here,

still sad about the victim 09/11/2006 11:51:42

It's not ok to be rascist against Scots,ok. Before everyone goes to far down the PC path realise that the way this story has been reported the race factor is part of the story. I understand the backlash comments from some posters, i don't agree but i understand. I don't feel the sentance is long enough.
"a minimum of 25, 23 and 22 years"....Kriss Donald's family will never stop feeling the pain of his loss. I wonder how the murderers cell mates will treat them? No much PC in prison, methinks?

226

karenw,

09/11/2006 11:51:47

#218 Arthur
The death penalty would presumably be preferable to 25 years in Barlinne. Long term imprisonment is far more inhumane than the death penalty.

The abolition of the death penalty has lead to a steady rise in the murder rate and as sentences have become absurdly lenient (just 12 year tariffs in some cases), it has risen still further. Punishment is a deterrent to crime.

227

Miss H,

09/11/2006 11:52:26

Just to get this clear - all the folk who are saying that this is due to multiculturalism.

Are you saying that there were no neds and no gangs in Glasgow before the Asians arrived?

228

Pete McClelland,

Kirkcudbright 09/11/2006 11:55:41

#4. Bruce. Where exactly should we have deported them to?
Another area of Glasgow perhaps?

229

Fiona,

Edinburgh 09/11/2006 11:55:56

Karenw:
'Whilst it would be preposterous to say that all Moslems are violent, nevertheless, we must remember that there exists in their society, a relatively large number of uncivilised, primitive, violent savages.'
Define uncililised, primitive and savage. By whose standards?
Please could you also clear up 'relatively large'? Relative to what? Can we have some facts to back up this assertion please?
I'm not being pedantic (this time) - I'd just like some more information to back up your statements.

230

Duncan in Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 11:56:17

#224 "a level of baseness and barbarity which is virtually unprecedented in the West"

Do you really need me to point out how utterly wrong this is, how many acts of barbarism have been committed in the West by western people or indeed elsewhere by western people? Do you really have that little a grasp on history or current affairs that you can claim that westerners are less barbaric than muslims?

Let the scales fall from your eyes. There is barbarism everywhere. In this country we deal with it thoughtfully, carefully and in this case I think, effectively. Our justice system sometimes lets us down, but not in this case. Let us continue to be thoughtful and careful, while working to reduce our barbarism, but let us not for a minute pretend that the west is a paragon of virtue.

231

eric,

09/11/2006 11:56:35

Gang in the 60s Battled with each other Thney Did NOT attack people on the street walking past and Didnt murder children ,If you Look ate the stats of Crime in English towns & Cities You will find that Most of it is commited by Black youths,Oh and thats NOT a Rascist comment ,

232

Arthur,

09/11/2006 11:56:42

Yes karenw entirely the point in this case, their hopefully long life will be purgatory in Barlinnie
I don't think the hard cases in there will have much time for them. Their anuses will be permanently open
for a variety of reasons for years to come.

233

Dougie - Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 11:58:50

Miss H 229
There have been Catholic-Protestant problems in Glasgow for a long time. That still doesn't make it very smart to import a new source of ethnic strife does it?

234

Billy,

Germany (thank God) 09/11/2006 11:59:45

The Tories are absolutley right, early release from prison suits the criminal and never the victims. If you believe in law and order then you know who NOT to vote for. Labour and the Liberals would have these scum back out on the streets before you Know it. We cannot trust them to keep our streets safe. Remember the tories have been consistent on this point, I for one am convinced they would aboloish the shamefull practice of early release.

235

noremac,

not too far away 09/11/2006 11:59:51

Be careful what you say there removing postings again.

236

MWM,

Argyll 09/11/2006 12:00:30

Interesting how the story of the abhorent murder of one person has generated 230 (so far) comments and the story on Donald Rumsfeld (jointly responsible for the murder of thousands) only nineteen.

237

Arthur,

09/11/2006 12:01:58

Eric Bullshit and you know it.

238

Pete McClelland,

Kirkcudbright 09/11/2006 12:04:25

#238.
Problem we have is the point in case is being missed and we are going off at a tangent.
Donald Rumsfeld isn't part of this news story

239

Duncan,

on tour 09/11/2006 12:05:12

Good to see the forces of law and order getting a result and defeating the forces of evil.
May Khris rest in peace. And his loved ones find peace.
People should not try and make any capital out of this, there are evil white people and there are evil black people.
I do hope that they spend the full term in prison, as I understand it was the Minimum sentence?
There time in prison will I hope be very unpleasant for them although the stories you hear now from the jails make me think otherwise.
They will probably meet up with there own kind and run a drugs ring.

240

eric,

09/11/2006 12:06:31

239 I was there I should know .

241

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 09/11/2006 12:08:12

I suspect the good folk at the Scotsman share a number of the views posted on here and are having a good ol time reading these postings ..

at least we can post - unlike the TOTALLY CENSORED BBC ... where it goes through ethnic cleansing of a sort before a view is 'permitted'

Thank you Scotsman :-)

242

Arthur,

09/11/2006 12:08:35

Yep Lock em all up, part of the reason for early release is there are not enough prison places. The answer
Hang the buggers, then we don't have to pay for them
it doesn't matter what they've don hang em get rid of them, why should we have to pay for them.
Or maybe you could build more prisons, hell no, that would mean tax increases, cost us more money, hell no
hang em high, have done with em. If you want sentencing to be proportionate and meaningful then you will have to pay for it, and no political party is going to comit suicide by telling you that obvious truth.

243

Duncan in Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 12:10:16

eric, I can appreciate that you are too stupid to understand what is and isn't racism, but would you please do me one favour and learn how to bloody spell it? R-a-c-i-s-m. There's only one s in there, and it isn't before the c.

I'm sure you'll continue to spout drivel and lies, but at least you'll be able to spell them.

244

Jacomo,

09/11/2006 12:10:42

#88 Eric.

I was going to report this comment. Then I realised it would be better if other readers could see where you are coming from.

Your post:

"All due respect But most of the Murders and crime down south IS caused by asian muslim people ,Thats a fact Not a rascist comment,"

This is NOT fact. This is the statement of a bigot.

245

noremac,

not too far away 09/11/2006 12:11:04

Were too civilized,burn the baboo,s

246

Captain Fantastic,

09/11/2006 12:11:24

"Does that last sentence make any sense to you? Of course not. Just like the last sentence of post #152 did not. To extrapolate from one small group to an entire race is just stupid." #157

I'm afraid your response does not make much sense to me. Community is formed when people of simliar outlook and cultural values agree to co-operate with each other for mutual benefit. They define rules to ensure the security of the community and punishments for those that break them. That is how civilisation has organised itself since we appeared on the planet. However, when members of cultural minorities start dictating to the majority how they should live their lives and then start killing us because they don't like it, then I think we are entitled to ask where their loyalties lie. This has nothing to do with race or religion. It is to do with mutual respect and understanding. Live and let live is my motto, but don't piss on my parade.

247

Arthur,

09/11/2006 12:11:26

238 that is because few people care about the buffoon
bumsfelt, or his fate. I suspect he will get his cumuppance in time if he lives that long. But right now
it is outwith our control. I take your point though.

248

Joanna,

Cambs 09/11/2006 12:11:51

What happened to Kriss Donald was truly terrible, what this poor boy went through before his death does not bear thinking about. Rest in Peace, Kriss and my deepest sympathy to your family and friends.

249

Sad to the Bone,

09/11/2006 12:13:21

Eric. Your facts are wrong I'm afraid, most violent crimes in England and Wales are perpetrated by young white youths. There is a perceived gun culture among black youths but this is generally projected within their own communities and isn't as wide spread as you may believe. Still I think this is getting away from the reason for these postings which should be to send condolence to Kriss's family. It seems we can't help but grind our socio-political axe at any opportunity.

250

noremac,

not too far away 09/11/2006 12:13:35

Cut there hands off.

251

Jacomo,

09/11/2006 12:14:19

Oh and Eric, make your mind up. Now you claim "most" crimes are committed by black youths.

Your ignorance is terrifying. And, to bring this back to the original story, your attitude is an insult to the memory of this poor murdered boy.

RIP Kriss Donald, and I hope your family finds solace.

252

eric,

09/11/2006 12:14:28

It is fact ,And where exactly is the rascist part in my comment?I know of a lot of Folk from London and other cities who have left because of it ,Its only starting in Places like Glasgow ,And only then you will see for yourself .
Go find yourself a Rascist to bash ,

253

Stuey,

Edinburgh 09/11/2006 12:14:35

Eric (numerous posts) - if you work for the govt (as you state in #79) can you please get back to work. Perhaps then you can earn that salary that the rest of us are funding instead of inciting racial hatred.
You and your ilk are the problem, and I would put you in the same pigeon hole as those who celebrate 9.11 and the london attacks.

254

noremac,

not too far away 09/11/2006 12:15:31

Poke their eyes out

255

Pete McClelland,

Kirkcudbright 09/11/2006 12:15:57

#252. There?

256

eric,

09/11/2006 12:15:59

255 Well you obviously didnt read my comments very well did you !

257

Captain Fantastic,

Glasgow, UK 09/11/2006 12:16:29

"Does that last sentence make any sense to you? Of course not. Just like the last sentence of post #152 did not. To extrapolate from one small group to an entire race is just stupid." #157

I'm afraid your response does not make much sense to me. Community is formed when people of simliar outlook and cultural values agree to co-operate with each other for mutual benefit. They define rules to ensure the security of the community and punishments for those that break them. That is how civilisation has organised itself since we appeared on the planet. However, when members of cultural minorities start dictating to the majority how they should live their lives and then start killing us because they don't like it, then I think we are entitled to ask where their loyalties lie. This has nothing to do with race or religion. It is to do with mutual respect and understanding. Live and let live is my motto, but don't piss on my parade.

258

Miss H,

09/11/2006 12:17:26

Dougie 235

There have been problems with violence in Glasgow for a very long time. You can’t blame it on Catholics versus Protestants or Asians versus whites. That is just the way people choose which gang they are in. It’s not the reason.

Let’s remind ourselves that Scotland is according to the UN the most violent country in the developed world.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1786945,00.html

Why is that and what solutions could there be?

Here are my suggestions.

More police on the streets is an obvious one – on the streets, not in cars.

A genuinely zero tolerance approach to violence. Don’t wait until people become fully fledged neds before you do anything about it. Deal with violence as soon as it manifests itself, even if it is in nursery school. The longer you leave a problem the harder it is to deal with.

Take violence reduction strategies seriously. The violence reduction unit in Strathclyde is doing fantastic work but it is still seen as an add-on. It should be central to our whole approach to justice and policing.

Stop praising neds. Just the other week I went into the newsagents at Queen St Station where they had a big display of ‘Glasgow’ books, presumably for interested tourists. But they weren’t about Glasgow’s architecture or history or even the best pubs and restaurants to go to. They were all about Glasgow gangs and hard men and famous murders etc. No doubt Kriss Donald’s murder will be added to the next editions.

Seriously, we need to take a long hard look at ourselves. As long as we define masculinity as being hard and continue to have this fascination with violence we are just storing up more grief for ourselves.

259

Arthur,

09/11/2006 12:17:45

Oh excellent noremac, shira law, well done, then we all
end up supporting them for the rest of their lives.
Why not just cut of all appendages so they can't reproduce more murderous little gits, or do anyone else any harm.

260

Pete McClelland,

Kirkcudbright 09/11/2006 12:19:01

Miss H.
Spot on, well done.

261

noremac,

not too far away 09/11/2006 12:19:06

Get an elephant to stand on their heads.That,s a genuine punishment from asia.

262

william oneil,

govanhill 09/11/2006 12:19:16

what about the 3 killings in govanhill, 2 old defenceless men 1 had the lock of his door drilled open before they went in and stabed slashed kicked 2 death the other 1 had boiling water poured over him the 3rd stabed and beaten 2 death, the three acussed entered a plea bargain and got, 10years,12years,12years, they were seen in sauchiehall street laughing and jokeing afterwards, weres the justice in those sentences these men that killed kriss are no more despicabil than the trio convicted of murder so why the descripencie in sentances think about it. juctice for all please!

263

Arthur,

09/11/2006 12:20:58

Elephants are to big to stand on their heads and that is animal cruelty anyway.

264

PowerScot,

09/11/2006 12:21:35

Peter Baleares #199 Well said. There is nothing like a real Glasgow hardman to sort out the likes of these wannabes. Just wait and see though Peter Baleares, the Human Rights Brigade will be the first to ensure that their every need and whim will be catered for. Good old BGW (#34) and his cronies will probably be banging on the door of the Bar - L to make sure that no Blackshirt or Brownshirt warder is mistreating the little darlings, whilst Fiona will be demanding to check all the grammar, spelling, punctuation and sentence construction of all documentation between the prison authorities and these scum who steal oxygen from decent people.

265

karenw,

09/11/2006 12:21:41

#232 DUNCAN

Your logic is somewhat defective. No one is suggesting that human evil is not prevalent everywhere or that the West is inherently blameless.

The point about this case, just like the filmed beheadings of Christians in Islamic lands, is that the LEVEL OF VIOLENCE and BARBARITY is much worse in Moslem lands and among Moslem peoples.

There are Westerners who have done evil things too but have you heard of any who abduct children, drive them around the country in fear to torture them before brutally executing them by restraint and repeated stabbing and then burning alive???

You fall into the liberal extremist school which wants to prove racial equality at all costs and in order to do that, you have to lower Westerners to the same level as Moslems by blithely and uncritically saying that we are all as violent as each other. Analyse the facts before repeating such mantras.

266

Arthur,

09/11/2006 12:22:59

William I take your point, donno how many others will
I am sorry however that you appear dispeptic.

267

PowerScot,

KZN 09/11/2006 12:27:47

Will williamoneil (# 264) please report to Fiona in the remedial room for spelling and punctuation lessons

268

Al,

09/11/2006 12:29:03

Well said Eric (#27, 35 etc). I haven't spent a penny in one of their shops since 9/11 either. The reason: On 9/11, my friend happened to be working as a labourer in Pollokshields and witnessed the party atmosphere that engulfed the place. Either there were numerous birthday parties being held on the same day (purely coincidental of course), or these shits were celebrating mass murder by their buddies.

As Eric says, try asking some of them just where they stand on the terrorism issue. I think you may be dismayed by MOST of the answers.

269

Cynic,

Dalkeith 09/11/2006 12:29:16

For once, I can eat my words on the paucity of sentencing, and salute the judge in this case for passing appropriate sentences. He is to be congratulated. However, this whole miserable business need never have happened in the first place if the law had been robustly inplemented years' ago. Something the ordinary citizen has been screaming out for for years' now. The minsters who repeatedly avoid toughening up on justice should hang their heads in shame. They are the culprits in this mess. A comprehensive clear-out of our 'protectors' is long overdue. Until then, there will be further heinous crimes committed unnecessarily. These sentences are quite unparalled in the history of our effete justice system. Let's hope their appeals fall on deaf ears.

270

Pete McClelland,

Kirkcudbright 09/11/2006 12:30:50

Relatives of mine in Peterborough Cambs sent me an email a couple of years ago. Young white lad walking home at 1am with his girlfriend was attacked by a gang of asian youths. The girl was told to get the police. By the time they arrived the boy was dead, burned and almost decapitated. Who heard of this story? Very few because the police supressed it as they feared a racial backlash. The youths were caught and given 'Life sentences'. Probably out in a coupe of years time.

271

Miss H,

09/11/2006 12:31:05

Karen 267 get real Do these names mean anything to you? Ian Bradey. Myra Hindley. Thomas Hamilton. Ian Huntly. Robert Black. I could go on.

Sadly some people are very warped and sick.

What we should be thinking about is a) how do we identify these people and b) how do we prevent them doing harm?

In the case of this gang I understand the leader was already well known to the police, had previous convictions and was in fact out on early release. Why was that? I haven't heard any explanations.
But clearly every indication was there that he was a very dangerous man so why was he allowed back out?

Those are the questions we should be asking instead of having an irrelevanty debate about Islam or immigration.

272

christopher,

09/11/2006 12:31:09

they should have been sent to pakistan to be sentenced and took what punishment their own country dishes out. this is one of the most shocking and appauling crimes i have ever heard about in my young life.

one thing i am glad about is that asians who commit racial crimes are getting tarred with that brush now... a lot of muselims/asians do have double standards when it comes to this sort of thing. people like these 3 should be shot, if there is 100% proof it was them then they should be hanged. capital punishment is a dodgy business but in the most severe cases there needs to be severe punishment. kirss' family will never see him again where these 3 can have a visit every other day of the week along with a playstation and sky tv. rather than pay for them to sit in jail, they should have been shot and even if you gave half the money it would take to keep them to kriss' family it might go a small way to help them on the way to never fully recovering!

god bless you kris

273

,

09/11/2006 12:32:59
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274

Pete McClelland,

Kirkcudbright 09/11/2006 12:34:35

#274 why should they go to Pakistan?

275

G,

dundee 09/11/2006 12:34:51

A terrible crime has been committed and the people involved have been caught and suitably punished for their racially motivated crime. I hope this serves as a warning to all racists in the UK. I should not serve as an excuse for other racists to justify their strange beliefs.

276

eric,

09/11/2006 12:35:00

270 many thanks
My family and other freinds and lots of folk i know Will Not use the shops ,Just ordinary folk ,Good for them and good for you ,I dont hate Muslims .because of the attacks ,Ive changed my veiws on them ,When i witnessed the reaction after the attacks ,Its your democratic right Not to use the shops ,

277

Sad to the Bone,

09/11/2006 12:35:26

PowerScot #269
Roarin wi laughter.
Oh and Eric, if and when you share these view with your friends and family, collegues and acquaintences do you stop long enough to check if they're nodding in vociferous agreement and making it difficult for you to finish for sharing their opinions, or, as I suspect, do you treat the silence that greets your vile opinions as complicity and agreement. Because if it's the latter you're on your own if its the former then it's true, you can judge a man by the company he keeps!

278

Sad to the Bone,

09/11/2006 12:35:32

PS Apologies for starting a sentence with because, I know it's poor grammer, I just felt it had greater dramatic effect.

279

,

09/11/2006 12:35:55
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280

wattie>x 1,

09/11/2006 12:36:02

The obvious problem within this island regarding CRIME, lies WHOLLY at the door of Blair's New Labour Party.
They conned the mass of voters with their usual baggage of lies, deceit and manipulation by their spin doctors (LYING MACHINE) during 1997 into supporting them. MESSIAH Blair and his side kick Brown never wasted much time introducing their pious slogans; EDUCATION, EDUCATION and more EDUCATION: TOUGH ON CRIME, TOUGH ON CRIME and TOUGHER ON CRIME; AND THE TRAGIC OUT-
COME BEING, WE FELL FOR IT HOOK LINE AND SINKER AND HAVE SUFFERED THE CONSEQUENCES EVER SINCE.
Crime; despite the claims of the thuggish renegade Communust Reid, has become near endemic and
legalised. Punishment currently is a joke and almost
non- existing with criminals practically queueing to gain admittance too our prison establishments.
Many off these guests are even supplied with drugs *legally and illegally*.
They are better fed than many of our elderly trying to exist on the scandalous low pension prudent Brown deems as adequate.
Our pensioners find it almost impossible to pay for their ever increasing utility bills but, the criminals in their comfortable cells, don't have that problem!
They enjoy Free TV and better leisure facilities than many children of low wage families, many elderly and those deprived of decent paid employment.
The rule of law has rapidly disintergrated since New Labour came out of the fog to take control of our island. Large proportions of our citizens are terrified to venture out of their own homes as young thugs in groups, rampage and roam our estates terrorizing1 (Where no champagne socialst MPs are to be found)
Peace and quite has become a luxury in a rapidly deteriotaing social structure that is now more rotten and corrupt than was under the evil Thatcher.
The poor become poorer each day as Blair and Brown's wealthy friends and their financial donors become wealthier.
Criminal justice, as th

281

karenw,

09/11/2006 12:36:41

Fiona #231

You have evidently had your had stuck in the sand for the last few years.
Evidence of Islamic violence:

* 9/11 and 7/7 ?heard of these
* execution of Christian hostages in Iraq and filming of the act for press release
*beheading of Christians in Phillipines and Nigeria
*beheading of Thai Bhuddists and Bhuddist monks in Southern Thailand
* execution and mass miurder of Sunni Moslems by Shias in Iraq
* high levels of violence in all Moslem countries and Moslem communities
* high percentage of Moslems sentenced for violent crimes in all developed countries from Norway to Britain,
*high incidence of rape perpetrated by Moslems
*honour killings
* high incidence of killing by burning alive in Pakistan and India.
* arson of buses in Paris with severe burns to one woman
* 2500 + assaults on French police by MOslems in 2006
*ambushes of French police and fire service

The list goes on................ read up on the facts.
The worst is yet to come in Britain, we have not seen anything yet.

282

shooie,

Australia 09/11/2006 12:36:50

Back in the 60's whilst employed as a bus conductor by the Glasgow Corporation at Knightswood and Partick bus depots, I made some incredible friends from Pakistan, india and the West Indies and there was very little display of open racialism. I left Scotland in 1967 to start a new life in Australia with my family and my children. Things were much the same out here as they were in Scotland, with the odd muttered epithet regarding members of various ethnic groups. But that is as far as it went. There will always be dissention of some sort, It is human nature. The point I would like to make is that even if you welcome people into your country, they must also be willing to accept the multicultural aspect of their settlement without having to result to forming enclaves and ghettoes of mutual distrust. I was completely unaware of the Kriss case until it was forwarded to me by a friend in America. It was sickening. We in Australia are faced with similar problems regarding race and religion and I have come to the conclusion that Governments have to have the guts to reach a decision without this abject fear of offending minority groups. I truly think that, once it reaches the stage of banning such things as the old "Mc robertson's golliwog" and the banning of Christmas decorations and the singing of Christmas carols in schools [As has happened in Australia] then, we have passed the point of no return in our own sweet Christian heritage. Perhaps, some day, we can hopefully attain true unity. I must admit, I cannot see a future for, not only Scotland, Britain or, anywhere else in the word of this happening as long as we are plagued with mongrels like these threee perpetrators. Hang the bastards.

283

.,

09/11/2006 12:37:13

I'd just like to say well done to Strathclyde Police. This must have been an horrific case to work on, but they've ground on over 4 years to produce a worthwhile result.

Good on them.

284

bupf,

09/11/2006 12:41:39

Folks , we all learnt what we neeeded to know about this when we were about 4.

There are bad people everywhere.

Stop the point scoring.

Bill, are you ready for 300?

285

eric,

09/11/2006 12:42:23

279 I dont go around thinking about Im not shopping in thre today .Its something i dont really think about anymore .It just comes as 2nd nature now.Like i said I dont hate muslims .It was their reaction after the attacks that changed my veiws on them ,Im not alone in that .I just dont see where the rascist comments are in any of my posts?.END

286

Neil,

9% GROWTH Party 09/11/2006 12:42:50

One reason given against the death penalty is that the death of any human diminshes us all. I would not feel diminished by knowning these monsters no longer shared oxygen moelciles with me - quite the reverse.

I hope the asian community realise how important it is that they give full encouragement to the police from now on. The fact that the police had been avoiding cracking down on these gangs for fear of being insufficiently PC should be a lesson to us all.

I think Sarwar is to be strongly commended for his role in getting them extradited.

287

Fiona,

edinburgh 09/11/2006 12:47:25

Karenw, yes I'm aware, but you haven't really adressed my questions. Never mind.

288

Duncan in Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 12:49:24

#283 Well done. If someone posted a similar list of things that another racial or religious group had done, would you call for them to all be tarred with the same brush too? Or is your ire truly reserved only for muslims?

289

Fiona,

edinburgh 09/11/2006 12:50:24

Addressed. F***. I quit.

290

bupf,

09/11/2006 12:54:57

adressed is correct. I think. Just gie up Fiona. like i said, its not worth the stress.
however getting 300 IS. Eric. END

291

karenw,

09/11/2006 12:58:48

Miss H

The usual culprits you trott out for comparison (I am surprised you have not mentioned Hitler and Stalin) did not execute their victims in such a brutal manner. They did not pour fuel over people and leave them to burn to death while crawling in agony trying to douse the flames. To die of a gun shot would is infinitely preferable to being burned alive.

This murder sets a new low in the catalogue of violence. It is barbarity of a new and imported kind. Common in Asia and Africa, unknow here until mass Third World immigration brought it to our shores.

292

noremac,

not too far away 09/11/2006 13:00:41

Are we playing into the hands of the BNP by any chance?

293

Fiona,

Edinburgh 09/11/2006 13:02:08

bupf, it's two ds but you're right, it's not worth the stress. Good luck wih the 300. END

294

Duncan in Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 13:02:18

#293 You clearly have little knowledge or understanding of the crimes perpetrated by the Nazis during the Holocaust. Have you heard of human experimentation? Rape and torture by the million in the death camps? The barbarism of the Holocaust was unimaginable, and a long way from "gun shot" wounds.

Learn your history before you spout your rubbish.

295

Morean,

England 09/11/2006 13:02:36

Life should mean Life in cases such as this one.
Sincere and heart felt sympathy to Kriss's family.

296

Steve here,

sad about kriss 09/11/2006 13:03:32

all these comments about race won't bring the boy back...i hope his family realise some peace after seeing the ba8st8ards convicted. tick tock.. Glasgow style.....

297

karenw,

09/11/2006 13:03:39

#290 Duncan,

Please list atrocities committed by other races and religions and we will assess their compatibility.

298

noremac,

not too far away 09/11/2006 13:03:47

All this and its only the year 2006,what a world.

299

,

09/11/2006 13:03:47
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300

Fiona,

Edinburgh 09/11/2006 13:04:58

Karenw, are you serious? 'barbarity . . . common in Asia and Africa . . .unknown here until mass third world immigration brought it to our shores?'
Are you forgetting the public burning of blacks, by whites, in the US early last century?

301

Royster,

09/11/2006 13:05:44

Chloe #127. Well said. All this muslim bashing is getting me down.

302

Stu99,

edinburgh 09/11/2006 13:08:02

As I mentioned earlier - these message boards just encourages freaks and misfits. Go away and invent yourself a life. Some people have nothing better to do.

303

Miss H,

09/11/2006 13:09:40

Karen you clearly have your own agenda. If you have reached the stage where you are arguing that the murder of one child is somehow 'worse' than the murder of 16 children because of the colour of the murderers then you are just not on the same planet as me.

Murder is evil but evil does not belong predominantly to one race or religion, as all rational people know. The rational response to a crime such as this is to think about how it could perhaps have been prevented - which it could have been - and what lessons can be learned from it.

Why don't you try thinking about this instead of just reacting?

304

Steve here,

sad about kriss 09/11/2006 13:09:43

yes fiona, there is racisim everywhere...but the US has laws to protect against racism now and look atthe current Governer in Massachucssets ( no way i can spell that state), progress can be made.

305

noremac,

not too far away 09/11/2006 13:09:57

Watch out Arthur someone may try and remove you from your position of 300.

306

Steve here,

sad about kriss 09/11/2006 13:12:24

Rest in Peace, Kriss, and peace to your family. that's all i realy wanted to post.

307

noremac,

not too far away 09/11/2006 13:14:05

304 stu99
these message boards are a cheap way for the scotsman newspaper to invent ideas for new stories,
but obviously the big penny has not landed on your head yet or anyone elses for that matter.!!!

308

bupf,

09/11/2006 13:14:12

Arthur. Me . You . Ootside.

Congratulations.

309

Arthur,

09/11/2006 13:16:17

Nah I can't see them disallowing that, it was no way offside. It's still mine cos everybody has seen it, even if
it is taken down

310

Joanna,

Cambs 09/11/2006 13:17:34

Karen @ 293

You appear to be trying to excuse the barbaric crimes committed by the murderers that Miss H listed by saying that this crime is worse.

Wrong, they were all despicable and disgusting crimes, at least 3 of those named were guilty of torture. Namely, Hindley, Brady and Black. Perhaps, you should educate yourself on their crimes before you pen your misleading comments.

The killing of anyone, especially defenceless children is an abhorrent crime and the colour of the skin of the killer is irrelevant. Please do not trivialise the murders committed by those evil individuals to suit your own agenda.

311

bill, england,

09/11/2006 13:17:48

Drat! Missed the 300 - I'll have to hang around for the 400.

312

karenw,

09/11/2006 13:17:57

302#
you are trying to compare an isolated incident in the American South with the world wide phenomena of Islamic violence against the infidel which has lasted much longer and killed many more people.

313

bupf,

09/11/2006 13:18:16

RIP Kriss , and I hope and pray for an end to this but not with much hope.

To put it simply , this crime was not committed by all muslims against all whites and to simplify it like that , you are just encouraging revenge attacks. Guess what ? They dont end once there has been a revenge. The go on. An on. And each side justifies itself against the other due to the other sides barbarity and ignorance.

WHEN THE F@cK WILL YOU LEARN ?

314

Pete McClelland,

Kirkcudbright 09/11/2006 13:19:06

#304 you have qualified your own statement!

315

Arthur,

09/11/2006 13:19:14

It's aw right bupf. it just comes naturally you know, it's all in the timing, but it takes practice and confidence.
Ye must huv hud yer eye aff the ba fur too lang pal eh

316

BGW,

09/11/2006 13:20:01

Karenw, yoyr diatribe of "wrongs against Christians stands as little in comparison with the massacres and genocide perpetrated by good christians since the time of Christians terrorists in Roman cities in the 2nd and 3rd Cs., and in the 4th, Emperor Constantine's slaughters, and the lists carry on up till the present. many a gentle peaceful religion has been the front ar the excuse to enforce the will of nascent fascists and totalitarian autocrats such as have been posting on this story.
How has it come that it is cool to be cruel. I've lost count of the number of rascists who start their rants with"I'm not a rascist, BUT...." Hypocrisy and self-delusion at best, outright lies more like.
If any group has been persecuted its anarchist atheists. Shot by all sides. Where's the pity for us. Naewhere coz we're not bleating and trying to play one upmanship games against people with opinions that use and understand no evidence. Free speech is a responsibility not an excuse to speak first without engaging the gears of the brain first.

317

bupf,

09/11/2006 13:21:46

Keep yer eye on the baw , good advice sir.

Im going to endeavour to keep my eye on the baw from now on. And not shop in Boots . END.

318

karenw,

09/11/2006 13:22:41

Joanna,
#313

Read my posts again as you have not understood them.

The muderers you have named did evil deeds but they were did not burn people alive and leave them crawling on the ground.

And if they had not been caught, they would likely have done it again either in the UK or Pakistan. They were all recidivists.

319

graham casey,

Perth Australia 09/11/2006 13:23:47

Good headlines but I wonder how long these guys will actually serve? - I'd say they will have reduced sentences after appeal and be out on parole in under 5 years based on the record of the criminal system to date.
What price this young mans life?

320

bupf,

09/11/2006 13:24:12

does recidivist mean Baldy karen

321

Davylad,

Mbra' 09/11/2006 13:24:24

'Guardian Unlimited' Online Newspaper:

'Stephen Lawrence murder': Hits 1105
'Kriss Donald murder': Hits 17

??

322

Sean68,

Glasgow 09/11/2006 13:24:47

This poor lad's mother has asked that there be no backlash against the Asian community regarding his horrendous murder.

Yes it was racially motivated, so all Asians' according to some on here are should be treated like they were the perpetrators of this crime, does this remind you of the thinking of others.

Justice has been served, if it's good enough for Kriss's family then it should be good enough for everyone else, so let's stop the petty point scoring and think of the family who will never forget the son, brother, cousin and friend that has been taken from them.

323

Arthur,

09/11/2006 13:25:59

Maybe ah shoodhae said keep yer eye on the baheid eh

324

noremac,

not too far away 09/11/2006 13:27:03

324 aye but this is the ""scotsman""ye canny beat it

325

Pete,

Paisley 09/11/2006 13:27:14

The Kriss Donald murder was not the first murder by asians in Pollokshields. I lived in the area about ten years ago and there was a 20 something white man beaten to death with hockey sticks. I don't know for certain, but it was said at the time he had been associating with a Pakistani woman. Some of the people believed to have been involved in that killing, apparently made of to Pakisatn too.
Maybe someone here remembers that case too?

326

karenw,

09/11/2006 13:27:18

#319- you might well take your own advice before posting

327

noremac,

not too far away 09/11/2006 13:30:44

The changing face of pish britian,no wonder people want to leave ,i think i,ll try Trinidad and Tobago.

328

BGW,

09/11/2006 13:30:59

329. karenw - I thought you would be able to respond with a tad more evidence and erudition. I see you can't quite muster the ability to see beyond your blinkers.

329

Arthur,

09/11/2006 13:32:02

329 if that's the best response you can come up with you have just lost the argument, Now go away and take the medicine and you may get better.

330

bupf,

09/11/2006 13:33:09

ive seen her blinkers.

331

Fiona,

Edinburgh 09/11/2006 13:34:15

Karenw - I'm afraid you're wrong again. I wasn't comparing anything with anything else - just pointing out that your assertion that torture by burning was unknown outside of Asian/African cultures was - er - wrong.

332

Rob15,

Edinburgh 09/11/2006 13:34:51

The sentence was well deserved no matter what the background of these murders for such a barbaric crime.
I cannot help thinking however it won't be long before the PC brigade will start to play the race card on this one. Claiming that Kriss's killers had been white there is no way they would have been given such long sentences.

333

karenw,

09/11/2006 13:35:07

306# Miss H, perhaps you should read my posts again and try to understand them before writing such simplistic and ill thought out responses.

As usual you have gone off track. The essence of the point is that this murder demonstrates a more base level of violence. We are not talking about numbers here.

Prevention would have best been directed at the avoidance of Third World immigration which has permitted large numbers of people who come from uncivilised countries to enter the UK bringing a new cataolgue of crimes and proper non PC policing of ethnic minorities. In this case all defendents were recidivists who should have been dealt with effectively much earlier in their criminal careers and deported to their native Pakistan.

334

Chris, Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 13:35:39

#325 - Well said. I made a similar comment earlier (#42).

335

Rob15,

Edinburgh 09/11/2006 13:35:59

The sentence was well deserved no matter what the background of these murders for such a barbaric crime.
I cannot help thinking however it won't be long before the PC brigade will start to play the race card on this one. Claiming that Kriss's killers had been white there is no way they would have been given such long sentences.

336

karenw,

09/11/2006 13:37:55

334 Fiona#

Torture by burning is predominantly as Asian crime and very common in India and Pakitan. It is rare in other cultures. That is the point which I made. I did not say that it was unknown....... read the post again!!!!!

337

bupf,

09/11/2006 13:41:09

South Africa tyre burnings Karen. Im sure theres loads more. BUt frankly its not that important.

338

Duncan in Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 13:42:19

#339 Karen you are now desperately backtracking because you were talking nonsense. All humans have the capacity to be barbaric, and there are records of horrific treatment of children and adults by people from all corners of the world and with all beliefs. You want muslims to be worse than other people so you decide that they are. That doesn't make it true. You are wrong.

339

Fiona,

Edinburgh 09/11/2006 13:46:17

Karenw - I just read your post again, as you suggested. 'Unknown' is precisely what you said. I'll copy it here for yau as you've clearly forgotten.

'It is barbarity of a new and imported kind. Common in Asia and Africa, unknow here until mass Third World immigration brought it to our shores.'

If I could just also quote your post 336 'We are not talking about numbers here', which kind of contradicts your previous posts 283 and 224 which refer throughout to 'large numbers' and 'high incidence'.

Your views are questionable to say the least, but do try to be consistent.

340

JG,

Fife 09/11/2006 13:47:18

#336 Karenw
Well, I actually didn't understand your comments either - not until I read #336 when I realised you just want to deport all of the Johnny foreigners.

341

SylviaAnn,

Australia 09/11/2006 13:47:30

I have been reading this case on the net I have the Scotsman sent to me all week.My opinion for what it is worth,is,do not hang them let them serve a life sentence with NO Parole.I think the prisoners hate them more than the people outside.May they have wonderful days for the rest of their miserable lives.

342

Miss H,

09/11/2006 13:47:34

335 Rob. I am quite sure that nobody will and that is frankly a stupid thing to say.

These men will certainly not get out early as they have been convicted of a racially aggravated offence which means that it carries a stiffer penalty than similar offences - which also answers William 264's point.

It is undoubtably down to the PC brigade as you call them that we have a category of racially aggravated offence so you should actually be thanking them if you believe that it is correct.

Personally I have slightly more sympathy with William's point of view. I think sentences should be consistent rather than based on the motivation of the offender.

343

Davylad,

Mbra' 09/11/2006 13:49:15

Google:

Stephen+Lawrence+murder: 1,650,000 Hits
Anthony+Walker+murder: 1,510,000 Hits
Kriss+Donald+murder: 39,900 Hits

344

Miss H,

09/11/2006 13:51:41

What is your point Davylad?

345

bupf,

09/11/2006 13:53:19

Davylad.. I believe you but theres more an indication of media bias and greater readership numbers. I would imagine the hits on Kriss + Donald + murder will go up given time, even alowwing for the websites which contain Donald Duck , Donald Trump and Donald wheres your troosers. Airse.

346

bupf,

09/11/2006 13:53:22

Davylad.. I believe you but thats more an indication of media bias and greater readership numbers. I would imagine the hits on Kriss + Donald + murder will go up given time, even alowwing for the websites which contain Donald Duck , Donald Trump and Donald wheres your troosers. Airse.

347

bupf,

09/11/2006 13:55:41

Actually forgive me, Im wrong.

348

Pam, Leeds,

WEST YORKSHIRE 09/11/2006 13:55:46

In respect of all the comments made about the lack of coverage in the English media, this situation does not just apply to Scots but all areas of Britain excluding London & the South East.
I have spoken to the local media & Police who confirm the feeling that all murders & other major incidents in that area are regarded by the media to be of more importance than in other areas of the UK

349

Graham Purdie,

somewhere on the med sea 09/11/2006 13:56:46

#322 out in less than five years,I really don't think that this will be the case.The brutality was too severe for such a prediction. How is it possible to re-establish not just murderers but racially activated killers back into OUR society in such a short period of time. Execution seems to be to some people too extreme,I say "go tell the young boys parents that" Are they really worth the expense and the risk of re-offending?

350

Duncan in Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 14:01:43

Davylad:

Saddam+Hussein: 17.9 million
Osama+Bin+Laden: 3.6 million
Adolf+Hitler: 2.6 million

What can it mean...?

351

bupf,

09/11/2006 14:06:46

bupf - 34.400
davylad - 286
duncan+in+edinburgh - 1.680.000

You spent too much time on the innernet duncan.

352

Duncan in Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 14:07:49

Evidently so does Saddam...

353

Pete,

Paisley 09/11/2006 14:08:27

Reading between the lines of what Lord Uist said yesterday Imran Shahid will be more than "baldy" when he gets out. He will more more than likely be toothless and dead.
Here's hoping!

354

Davylad,

Mbra' 09/11/2006 14:08:38

I don't have a point, Miss H. I'm just one of those smug self-righteous know-alls who own the social establishment - that part of the elite who dictate how society's norms are established and reported -for example the broadcast media and the penal system. I just wanted people to know how completely we bestride the world. Almost like a colossus. You can recognise us - we're given to making statements like "No civilised society executes its murderers!" as if they were self-evident truths, but we run the show so completely that nobody ever expects us to provide any kind of argument to substantiate such views. It's brilliant!

355

wattie>x 1,

09/11/2006 14:13:24

Trying to be blame certain religious groups for being reponsible *in doing this or doing that* is not the answer.
Having served during the last war and also worked some lengthy spells abroad in countries of various
cultures I always found that most ordinary people were friendly and never intimidating. I share with horror at the evil these criminal thugs inflicted on this lad, whose young life was brutally terminated.
But, I disagree with any state having the ultimate control in ending a human beings life legally. The incarceration for life by those individuals committing certain degrees of murder is surely the civilised
manner. As a non-believer brought up and educated in a mainly Presbyterian country, I found in later life most religions, including the one above, committed the most atrocious forms of barbaric punishments upon ordinary people in order to stricly control us.
How many thousands of innocent women were burned alive at the stake, simply because someone wearing a dog collar only had to point his finger at her, and brand her a witch. Some wonderfully clever individuals met their death similarly because clerics didn't agree with their discoveries, such as , the earth was a globe, and not flat as the religious zealots believed. Almost all religions have been used as an instrument of control by fear and terror
and as politicts appeared on the scene politicians used much the same methods, even today.
Never forget; both Scotland and England - even in my time - has produced as equally brutal murderers
as those evil ones who destroyed this young lads life.
The history books are littered with records of state brutality used on their own innocent citizens when they decreed. So please, don' t fall into the trap by calling for the return off the death penalty.
Just ponder for a moment and think about the many millions of the innocent who perished under Hitler's Nazi Germany **legally*!

356

bupf,

09/11/2006 14:15:52

Eric+END - 60.400.000

357

sharon,

glasgow 09/11/2006 14:20:22

I owned a flat in Pollokshields between 1978 and 1986 and was astounded last week, chatting with a former neighbour, to discover that those horrible children in the next close to mine all those years ago were the Shahid boys. As little children, they used to hang out the windows, swearing and chucking things at passersby, their behaviour apparently indulged by their parents. I was probably not the only person to say: 'those kids get away with murder.' All grown up now, they are convicted killers.

We moved away 20 years, although not far, and we go 'across the tracks' to Pollokshields to tend our allotment garden most days during the season. Kriss was abducted within 200 yards of our plot. I found myself going out of my way not to drive along Kenmure Street while the makeshift shrine to Kriss was in place - it just hurt too much to contemplate what happened to him. I was also heartsick when I heard that his alleged killers had fled to Pakistan and might never be returned to face justice in their own country - my country, Kriss's country.

But I will tell you that there was an extraordinary effort in that community to pull together and - for once - not let those thugs get away with murder.

And they haven't. So let's just rejoice in that instead of berating our justice system, our civilised rejection of capital punishment, the very real and effective efforts of our local MP Mohammed Sarwar and the bravery of people of all colours and creeds who refuse to play the racial card.

358

Arthur,

09/11/2006 14:23:26

358 Written from a position of experience, and humanity I couldn't have put it better myself
Thank you sir.

359

Sheila Calder,

Yorktown Virginia 09/11/2006 14:29:43

I am so sad for the family But angry there was not much news about this Is it because he was white I am glad they are in jail

360

another expat,

foreign climes 09/11/2006 14:30:01

What a shocking story. What a lot of shocking reactions. And what a shock that I have never heard about it until now.

Before I left Scotland there was a sense that all who had chosen to live there were to included as Scottish.

But Glasgow always had a bit of reputation for sectarian and mindless violence - among other things of course! So it seems to me that too much is being made of the race thing here. If we forget the colour of the skin, it could be seen as just another bit of ordinary gangland thuggery.

The fact that there is apparently a more difficult relationship between Pakistan and Scotand these days it seems to me has more to do with that idiot Bush's "War on terrorism" ... I hope the neanderthals do not use this as an excuse to do their worst. Today is after all the anniversary of "Kristalnacht" ...

361

Davylad,

Mbra' 09/11/2006 14:31:50

duncan+in+edinburgh: 1,680,000 Hits
know-all+jodrell+banker: 1,680,000 Hits!!!

Now that's GOT to mean something!

362

jefferies,

inverness 09/11/2006 14:34:49

Time for political correctnes be be got rid of. Laws need to be rewreitten and there is a time and place for the death penalty for horrific crimes, terrorism, mass murder etc. A pity the powers that be have not got the guts to admit to their real feelings instead of what they think is politically correct. Like it or not birching is probably the best solution instead of ASBO's, bullies were historically cowards, and the great mass of society must be protected before it becomes too late and the thugs rule all. Soon the jails will be full of motorists and the streets murderers and rapists judging by what one reads and sees each day!

363

Tony B,

09/11/2006 14:38:02

Racial murders: nearly half the victims are white

Home Office release official figures as police claim that political correctness is stifling the debate

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1928559,0...

364

GP,

09/11/2006 14:42:50

358# agreed.
having travelled far and wide. I find ordinary folk to be almost completely the same the world over.
They have far more in common than differences for sure. I also agree that FEAR is a ultimate tool for controlling the populace and has been a great servant of both religious and political leaders since the dawn of time.
Crime and punishment needs a full debate and review as it does nothing for the victims.
There are those that would wish the death penalty brought back, having been always against it I do now believe that in some cases where it is clear thee is no doubt about guilt that it could be used.
Cold blooded pre meditated murder does not deserve our sympathy and with improved forensics such as DNA etc. it may well be time to review our stance on capital punishment. In the past some crazy mistakes have been made (proven) and would always be a counter argument to the former.
The system itself is failing us as it does nothing about getting to the truth and is all about the skills of the highly paid advocates etc. involved.
One thing is for sure this isn't the first and won't be the last racial murder in Glasgow or any other place.

365

PowerScot,

KZN 09/11/2006 14:48:21

It looks to me as if the majority of Scots have gone soft over the years. I remember a Glasgow that was 'No Mean City' and one that would never have tolerated the likes of these Shahids. They would have been sorted out Glasgow style, good and proper. Where has the toughness of the Scots and in particular the Glaswegians gone? The likes of Fiona and BGW and all their doo gooder friends are turning our nation into a nation of wimps. I would love to see the Shahids and their kind try and do what they did to Kriss Donald in Belfast. The problem is that the Scots are a hospitable nation to their own detriment because people like the Shahids take advantage of it. The authorities are also to blame for covering up Asian on White violence for fear of a backlash. Maybe these peope need to feel a backlash in order to be put and kept in their place. Who the hell do they think they are coming to Scotland and thinking they can do as they please?

366

Allan,

09/11/2006 14:53:06

Condolences to the family.
My only observations are that Ian Huntley got 40 years, and if these animals were so keen to go to Pakistan, then why not send them there to serve their sentences?
PS BNP leaders comments about "paki street thugs" appear to be as valid as his comments about "home grown muslims planting bombs in our cities"
THIS IS AN OBSERVATION, NOT A RASIST COMMENT!

367

Chris, Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 14:54:10

#368 - what did you think of Angela Donald's requests for there to be no backlash?

368

Arthur,

09/11/2006 14:58:31

Curtail this political correctness by all means it has it's place but it's been taken too far.
Corporal and Capital punishment definately No they must never darken these shores again.
How many times
1) Violence begats Violence
2) Violence Solves nothing it creates more problems
than it solves
3) It does not do any good for the victim
4) It does not help the bereaved in any way
5) It reduces society to the same level as the
murderers
6) It makes us all murderers
7) It is too good for most murderers who are not
found to be insane.
8) the execution of just one innocent is one to many.
9) It is not an effective deterrent.

369

,

09/11/2006 15:01:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 157950, Article id was mapped to record!
370

,

09/11/2006 15:07:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 157971, Article id was mapped to record!
371

bill, england,

09/11/2006 15:08:19

How many years will Tony Blair get when he is tried at the Hague?

372

bupf,

09/11/2006 15:10:49

15 Bill ,)

373

wilaw,

UK 09/11/2006 15:22:04

Our country has been and continues to be Balkanized. We all know what happened there. Rwanda, Sudan, Palestine, Congo....etc. When will lefties realize that despite wishes to the contrary, different races get along sufficiently badly for it to be a problem. The reason different ethnic groups lived for millenia in unique georaphic locations was for good reason. These five Pakistanis aren't rare specimens. FACT: 70,000 TO 20,000 WHITE TO NONE WHITE VICTIMS OF 'WOUNDING' LAST YEAR IS TYPICAL OF THE REAL STATS ON THIS INTER-RACIAL VIOLENCE. All the more amazing when you consider that they comprise 10% of the population but commit 350% more race-hate crimes. Now I got that statistic from the main stream media news last night, not the BNP website. So, wake up liberal boys. It isn't a question of hatred or evil it is a question of which side you are on when the sh..t hits the fan as it inevitably will. And what is more, you liberal fairies will be to blame. You killed Kriss Donald just as sure as those aliens did. Uninvited Pakistanis. Ask the honest question: when was the democratically held referrendum about alien cultures and races coming to our land?
There wasn't one. Leftie arrogance knows no bounds: who the hell are these traitors to tell us who we must accept and who we musn't? I don't need to justify who I refuse entry to my house and nor should Scottish people need to justify who comes into their country either. You go to Pakistan if you love them so much. Really, pal, go. I'm sick of smarmy arses like you telling people what they must think and why.

374

PowerScot,

KZN 09/11/2006 15:23:17

Okay bupf (# 372) two points:

1. Simply becasue you are born in a stable does
not mean to say you are a horse. They are not
Scottish, never will be. If they are Scottish, why
flee to Pakistan?

2. I never took you for a mongrel, but there we
are.

375

bupf,

09/11/2006 15:27:19

378.

1), Any port in a storm

2) No problem sir, Im a proud mongrel

377) We can all churn out shoitey statistics to suit our own twisted purposes.

376

Chris, Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 15:27:40

#378 - still waiting for a response to my question in #370.

377

bill, england,

09/11/2006 15:29:35

Arthur lost his 300.

378

Centrist USA,

USA 09/11/2006 15:30:51

Andrew #55 yes some evil people are white but more people who do not respect life are not.
Other than a punishment of slowly stabbing them and the setting them on fire I think we should supply them some pets in prison. PIGS and BOARS and SOWS and put them together in solitary confinement. Isn't it humane to allow inmates to have pets?

God love you, Kriss!

379

Eric D,

A Scot 09/11/2006 15:32:38

Questions need to asked as to how a known dangerous criminal was allowed out of prison, having
spent only 2.5years of 4 year sentence for a viscious attempted murder. The system has failed and lessons must be learned. The authorities should have kept tabs these thugs. Where was the parole
service? I believe PC led the police to take a hands off approach.
Political correctness is masking the real problems, there needs to be a stance taken against it. The PC
police now have us referring to ourselves as "a person of Scotland " and "the people of Scotland". We now have the commission for racial equality in Scotland ( a non Scot ,and a Westminster quango ) telling us we're bad because we do not have 2% of our MSP from an ethnic background. it. I say f@ck you got get a proper job. I do not need some half wit nobody telling me how I conduct myself.

380

Arthur,

09/11/2006 15:33:13

wilaw,
I haven't a clue to whom that badly constucted piece of inaccurate drivel was directed. But you really have no idea of history, or the facts of this case.
It has already been stated that they were born here and are therefore British. The fact that they or their ancestors were allowed to come to this country is historical and refers to the days of empire and slavery.
That was nothing to do with pinko lefties but ultra blue christian bigotted righties. In short we are paying the price of our fathers sin, had they not set out to control the world for their own ends we would not owe commonwealth citizens the debt of citizenshi of the motherland. Further we need most of them to keep our national health service running because we sure as hell can't do it ourselves due to our own indolence and self imposed ignorance which is what you are suffering from.

381

Arthur,

09/11/2006 15:35:00

383, we all know it was mine, but I am totally perplexed as to why it was removed, can anybody
enlighten me?

382

bupf,

09/11/2006 15:38:13

I dunno Arthur. It was an Injustice. Never mind, lets have a right old Mike Reid runaround for 400.

383

AJ,

Fife 09/11/2006 15:40:45

Evil swine - black or white disny matter, they're just evil swine! They also got caught and the rest of their lives will be hell!

384

bill, england,

09/11/2006 15:41:22

A few days ago, I couldn't post anything, completely blocked. I signed off and re-registered, seems to be OK now.

385

AJ,

Fife 09/11/2006 15:41:59

It disny coont Arthur - nae luck neebur!

386

Robin,

09/11/2006 15:42:21

Execution would be much too simple and 'ggod' for them.
they deserve to suffer at least as much, (preferably muuch much more) than the poor lad that they mutilated and killed.
A quick death for them is too good.
I hope and trust that they will get their full come-uppance in prison, and may it be long, slow and extremely painful, resulting in an inexorable death.
On the subject of racialism, I feek that it is inevitable that there will be backlash against the Muslim community.
When a Muslim is attacked /murdered we white locals) are subjected to a tirade of it being persecution of the 'poor' Muslim.
When it is reversed, we do not hear the same - WHY?
I have lived and worked in foreign parts and was always very careful to respect the laws and people of that particular country.
A little of that by these scum might have made the difference!!!!!

387

AJ,

Fife 09/11/2006 15:42:53

Bill, you have tae keep it clean!

388

AJ,

Fife 09/11/2006 15:44:04

there's a queue for the 400

389

bupf,

09/11/2006 15:44:20

Soon it will be mine.

390

Arthur,

09/11/2006 15:44:40

300 wiz a dig at somebody called Frankie, looks like he threw oot his dummy, an reported me tae the janny, instead o takin his medicine. Whit a big bairn.

391

bupf,

09/11/2006 15:44:48

get in

392

bill, england,

09/11/2006 15:45:05

A queue?

393

bupf,

09/11/2006 15:45:11

oh cmon

394

,

09/11/2006 15:45:12
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 158107, Article id was mapped to record!
395

bill, england,

09/11/2006 15:45:14

yes

396

bupf,

09/11/2006 15:45:19

yes

397

bupf,

09/11/2006 15:45:34

Robin. You are barred.

398

Arthur,

09/11/2006 15:45:36

Ach awa an blaw yer nose it's mine

399

AJ,

Fife 09/11/2006 15:46:19

Robin,

A severe kicking everyday for the next 40 years is what those animals should recieve!!

400

AJ,

Fife 09/11/2006 15:47:16

Too busy keeping on topic.....damnation!

401

Arthur,

09/11/2006 15:48:44

Which post Robin or do you dismiss them all
anyway I think most of us would appreciate a counter arguement to that which upsets you Just to call something Bovine excrement does not make it so
I challenge you make it so!

402

bupf,

09/11/2006 15:51:13

I have just done something Ive never done before. I reported Robin as he got the 400th post. Luckily he is an airse and he swore so i should be able to justify my childish action to the Moderator.

403

bill, england,

09/11/2006 15:53:43

500 will be after sunset, I'm not sure whether it will be safe to post to Edinburgh.

404

Joanna,

Cambs 09/11/2006 15:55:04

Karen @ 321

You appear to have the polictial views of a BNP supporter. Your opinion on what makes an murderer evil appears to be based on their skin colour.

Brady and Hindly sexually tortured their 10 year old female victim and taped her screams of agony and her calls for her mother. That, in my book makes them a particularly evil pair of killers. Additionally, Brady, Hindly and Black were all serial killers and predatory paedophiles ..... they carried on with their crimes until they got caught.

They, and the killers of Kriss Donald should have been hung.

405

Arthur,

09/11/2006 15:56:45

AJ it wiz mine, an it's yoo whit cannae coont, whit fifer can? If it no mine wha's is it.
Heh 330 AS wiz here.

406

bill, england,

09/11/2006 15:57:31

bupf 408

Did you report his spelling to Fiona's correction centre?

407

noremac,

not too far away 09/11/2006 15:59:22

Arthur what did i say earlier,(300)

408

Arthur,

09/11/2006 16:00:01

Thanks bupf, ah didnae want tea appear churlish by daen the same thing masel. Robin is jist an igorannus
an deseves aw he gets ah widnae ca him an annus though they're useful ye ken.

409

Arthur,

09/11/2006 16:02:06

noremac, awa an cease yer gloatin man, ye'll choke oan yer ain sputum!