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Scotland Yard to investigate 'collusion' by MI5 in torture

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Published Date: 27 March 2009
SCOTLAND Yard will investigate claims that MI5 agents colluded in the torture abroad of a UK resident, Binyam Mohamed, after a four-month study of evidence surrounding the allegations.
Metropolitan Police detectives have been ordered to launch a criminal investigation by Baroness Scotland, the Attorney General, after she and Keir Starmer, the Director of Public Prosecutions, scrutinised "substantive material" including the testimony of an MI5 officer.

"I have concluded that the appropriate course of action is to invite the commissioner of the Metropolitan Police to commence an investigation into the allegations that have been made in relation to Binyam Mohamed," she told the House of Lords yesterday.

"I have expressed to the commissioner the hope that the investigation can be taken forward as expeditiously as possible given the seriousness and sensitivity of the issues involved."

The unprecedented decision will give credence to concerns about British complicity in torture and rendition.

However, the police investigation stops short of the full judicial inquiry wanted by human rights campaigners.

Lawyers for Mr Mohamed, who was last month released from Guantanamo Bay after seven years of detention across three continents, have said that MI5 agents were complicit in his torture and rendition.

It had been alleged that British agents gave ideas about lines of interrogation to take and ignored Mr Mohamed's claims of torture at the hands of his captors while visiting him abroad.

He said that 70 per cent of the questions put to him while he was in detention in Morocco came from sources in Britain.

Mr Mohamed was picked up while flying from Pakistan to London in 2002 after a trip to Afghanistan. He was accused by Americans of plotting a bombing – a claim he has denied.

The 31-year-old said he had been tortured at centres in Morocco, Pakistan and Afghanistan. He was transferred to Guantanamo Bay in 2004, where he was held until his release.

Police were yesterday given the power to question spies about what they knew and review secret papers.

However, if any agent is found to have broken British law, the case will be heard behind closed doors.

Speaking from Brazil, Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, gave his backing to the investigation. "I have always made clear that when serious allegations are made, they have got to be investigated.

"I have also been clear that this government does not tolerate or endorse torture."

David Cameron, the Conservative leader, said he was not certain the police investigation would "remove this potential stain from Britain's name".

He said: "I think we will need some form of wider inquiry to find out whether the right procedures and processes were in place to prevent Britain from being complicit in torture."

Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg called for a full judicial inquiry.


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 26 March 2009 9:18 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: International terrorism
 
1

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 27/03/2009 00:46:27
Although this enquiry must go ahead, no one seriously thinks it will be allowed to speak the truth - there is too much at stake.

I try to be only sceptical and never cynical about the UK Establishment, but after a third viewing of the superb documentary 'Diomhair', cynicism is finding roots in my heart.

Incidentally, a few short years back, I became worried about the way the American television series '24' was insidiously preparing public opinion for torture being sanctioned by an American president, with its 'end justifies the means' philosophy. I wrote to the TV channels and the broadsheets about this, but none of them published my letters or responded to my concerns.

Well, we know now the poisonous fruits of that fictional scenario, and I refuse to believe that it was coincidental. The actor who played Jack Bauer, Kiefer Sutherland, a noted liberal, feebly claimed he was unaware of the implications of his script, and I believe him, even though it is a sad reflection on his judgement.

http://moridura.blogspot.com
2

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 27/03/2009 00:50:34
#1 Your bleeding heart makes my heart bleed!
3

The Brain,

27/03/2009 01:45:03
Trial by media.

MI6 is largely white, he is a Mulsim.

Muslim's don't lie, white government's do.

Black good, asian good, white bad.

Muslim victim, atheist intolerant oppressor.

These themes will feature in the media constantly, we will never believe the report - even although it is unlikely the UK does torture.

PC is a new form of facism.
4

Jimmy Le Pie,

27/03/2009 05:00:53
Brainless

I see you're not only incredibly stupid but you're a racist to boot.

Not a lot going for you is there???
5

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 27/03/2009 05:33:22
2 Mercutio.

Your concern touches me deeply.
6

terry osser,

morden 27/03/2009 05:47:59
waste him--solve a lot of problems--he deserves deportation and no compensation at my expense
7

steve 1511,

aberdeen 27/03/2009 06:27:50
why is this person in the country,why was he travelling on a fake passport in afghanistan,why are the police not investigating him,why is there no coverage of the gibbering eeji broon being humiliated in the european parliament, you can see it on you tube just enter daniel hannan.

we are doomed with broon dooomed,
8

,

27/03/2009 06:31:51
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9

greenhill,

27/03/2009 07:00:05
I am all broken up about the treatment of Binyam Mohamed.Right now tears are rolling down my cheeks.
Now I must put this onion back in the kitchen.

10

Angoos,

Baku, Azerbaijan 27/03/2009 07:18:03
#7 I agree, why isn't this illegal immigrant being questioned on the validity of his travel documents ? Why was he even brought back to the UK ? Why wasn't he sent straight back to Eitheopia ? Why are the "Civil Liberties" and "Human Rights" lawyers clamering all over him ? Easy answer.... COMPENSATION !!!

#4 You are either very naive or you are stupid not to have noticed the bias towards Binyam Mohamed by the media in this particular case, and other alleged Muslim "victims" who have appeared in the press.
Why are none of them asking why is he here ?
The media in general, politicians, police, etc. are all running scared of the "discrimination card" that is all so often, and easily, played by people looking for an easy compensation claim or with an axe to grind.
If an Asian or Black guy is attacked by a gang of whites then the headline is "Racially Motivated Attack" however, when a white guy is attacked by a gang of Asians or Black guys then race is never mentioned (that's if the story even makes it onto the news in the first instance)

Britain has become a nation of apologists afraid of offending ANYONE in case they play the discrimination card and start looking for a hefty financial payout !!
11

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 27/03/2009 07:35:41
The not-so-thinly veiled agenda of those criticising Binyam Mohamed (giving them the benefit of the doubt that it is not racist) seems to be that if he was a bad man, it was OK to torture him.

If they can't see that, or worse still don't care, then hey are on the side of the torturers. And there have always been people like that in societies that used torture. Until the men with the racks, pincers and thumbscrews knocked at their door ...

http://moridura.blogspot.com
12

Silence of the Yams,

27/03/2009 07:57:34
Cannot believe we are wasting more time, effort and money on this guy. Send him back to Ethiopia where he belongs. Absolute joke.
13

voltaire's janny,

27/03/2009 08:05:57
#12 I suspect you are being your usual provocative numptiness, but if you genuinely believe what you say you are scum.

The whole point is that intelligence obtained by torture is uneliable, never justified and degrades all those involved.

There is a very good chance that Rumsfeld, Chaney, Bush, Gonzales and co. believed the extracted "evidence" that Saddam & Al Qaeda were linked, evidence that was first suggested to "enemy combatants" by the torturesrs themselves.

Many of those with the same response as you, told them what they wanted to hear.

I hope but do not expect that the named officials go to jail for their crimes.

If you want to read the truth about Gitmo and the detainees, read "Bad Men" by lawyer Clive Stafford Smith.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/bad-men-by-clive-stafford-smith-455057.html


14

voltaire's janny,

27/03/2009 08:14:54
Binyam Mohamed, settled in the UK (from America) because he felt Britain to be less racist tham the US. He was a waster and while flunking at college became a druggy, then with the same lack of spirit turned to religion (Islam) to help him stay drug-free only a month before his trip to Afghanistan. He was sold by dubious warlords or Pakistani officials to the Americans, imprisoned and tortured for years.

They attempted without any evidence save the torture-collateral so many here seem to value with a dirty bomb plot until the lawyers began to force a situation where at some future time evidence may be tested ina court. All charges were dropped, yet Binyam and many others remained detained while genuine admitted spokesme of Al Qaeda were released.

Probably less than 20 of the 700+ detainees have any thing at all to answer for.
15

sam the god,

27/03/2009 08:22:02
#12 Rulesbutnotrulers

I am with you on this one why the hell did this country take this man in? Questions must be asked of the goverment as he was caught with a false passport that does not sound the sort of thing that an innocent man would do. was he tring to get into the country as another person and then claim benefits under his 2 names or was it more sinister. immediate deportation is required for him
16

Jim P,

27/03/2009 08:24:54
#12 Rulesbutnotrulers

"I don't object to torture if it saves innocent lives. "

As I recall torture was also considered to be a good way of catching witches! Seems we havnae moved on much.
17

The Brain,

27/03/2009 08:28:26
17

"Why the hell did this country take this man in?"

Maybe MI6 wanted to recruit him? Maybe he is MI5? And this pantomine a honeytrap.

Perhaps MI6, MI5 wanted to create hysteria to provide an excellent cover story for their ops motivation when trying to infiltrate the extremist groups.

To say that we OR the US torture is plain wrong. The US dumped torture years ago, not through morality, but because it doesn't work.

They use co-ersion now. Did you see how "well" the detainees were treated? They had their colon examined weekly.

Having your mortal enemy put a lubricated finger up your bum on medical grounds isn't torture, but it's far more effective.

I suspect this is media manipulation, he's probably a honey trap.
18

puskas,

East kilbride 27/03/2009 08:34:37
Innocent until proven guilty. ?

Torture proves nothing.


The race card is alive and well today on this site.

This Labour Government is the most despicable government in my own lifetime. Aye and I've seen many.

19

The Brain,

27/03/2009 08:37:19
20 Puskas

"Innocent until proven guilty"

Are you saying that you shouldn't judge the government guilty until it's proven? Oh, I see, you're not. You're saying that the government is guilty unless it can prove its innocence.

Tell me, do you recognise the same hysteria and character traits in yourself that you criticise?
20

puskas,

East kilbride 27/03/2009 08:45:10
No12...........

"I don't object to torture if it saves innocent lifes".


Innocent lifes are at risk due to torture..

Inclusive of the person/persons tortured....

21

Tartan Viking,

27/03/2009 08:45:31
We are becoming a yellow bellied country. Here is a man, born in Ethiopia but resident here (astonishingly making him British in some peoples' eyes), who travelled to Afghanistan and other places on a forged passport (possibly committing other crimes on route), claiming that his human rights have been abused and we are scurrying about defending him.
What defence is there for the thousands of British soldiers wha have been tortured and murdered in Iraq and Afghanistan? #3 is correct.
22

,

27/03/2009 08:51:04
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23

voltaire's janny,

27/03/2009 08:52:38
What the cerebrally challenged angry mob types so eloquently represented herein by Rulesbutt, The Brain (sic) and (not enough) Silence, fail to realise is that we are not one jot safer because of our governments' war on terror. We have had our rights and wallets thoroughly reamed and religious fundamentalism given a huge boost by the antics of The Bush regime.

Just in case you think I am enaged in special pleading, I have no time for Islam or any of your other delusions, I am no lefty and I think Mr Mohamed was a waster. However my interests, or yours, are not served by abandoning of habeus corpus.

It is exactly how such rights are conferred on child molesters, killers, nutters and extreme (or benign)reigious proselytisers that defines civilised behaviour and nations.



24

puskas,

East kilbride 27/03/2009 08:54:30
No21...........

You torture this site by your comments.

This Government have been guilty of much misimformation and guilt across the board as you may know. Of course there is a grave possibility you don't already know in reading your comments.

Braindeads histerical last para.... Answer No


25

Silence of the Yams,

27/03/2009 09:03:17
Why don't left target the scumbag lawyers that are pimping this character's bogus case and milking the system for it's worth? Is it cos he's black? Shame Goodwin doesn't have any African in him, he'd be left in peace to enjoy his corrupt millions.
26

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 27/03/2009 09:05:20
IF there is any truth in the allegations of torture involving the SIS of the UK then quite rightly they must be investigated?

However, we should not forget that, according to many
media reports, Mr. Mohamed was strongly suspected of being a dangerous threat to national security of the UK and US!
27

Los Angeles,

27/03/2009 09:22:28

Is there any doubt MI5 colluded in torture?

Does it merit an investigation when the UK government "sexed up" war intelligence to send our troops to Iraq?

Did the UK government oppose Guantanamo Bay prison and its methods?

What is bombing wide areas but torture for innocent civilians?

At any point did the UK government announce it had evidence the USA was using torture and unless it stopped we would withdraw UK troops from the front?

The UK parliament is guilty as hell of condoning war crimes and no amount of obfuscation or English good manners will camouflage the fact that the disreputable rotten British government has no values whatsoever.

Heck, we fired seven bullets into the head of an innocent man in a tube train - what's a bit of torture to that?

LA
28

Courtney,

East Molesey 27/03/2009 09:32:13
Why is this morally corrupt Governement wasting more taxpayers money on an Ethiopian citizen?!
29

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 27/03/2009 09:55:50
Expect the usual whitewash.
30

The Brain,

27/03/2009 10:07:27
32

Whay aren't you expecting the usual vexious claims from extremem muslims as well?

People like you (eg the Media) are traitors. The British Army goes to great lengths to treat Muslims with respect. The British Army risk life and limb to collect the bodies of dead terrorists for proper burials. Because they know that when their comrades collect the bodies, they mutilate them and claim it was the Brits wot done it.

The Muslims use gullable idiots like you and our soppy looney left PC media to win propoganda victory after propaganda victory. You are a disgrace to honorable, brave young men and women, and your country, sir.
31

,

27/03/2009 10:29:01
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32

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 27/03/2009 10:29:05
And you sir, are brainwashed cannon fodder.
33

,

27/03/2009 10:30:58
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34

,

27/03/2009 10:35:30
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35

puskas,

East kilbride 27/03/2009 10:36:30
No33..

Is it not a disgrace that our honourable young men and women who have lost their lifes due to being sent to fight an illegal war on behalf of a discreditted Labour Government that will be out on its neck at the next GE.
You verge on racist comment as if all muslims are deemed guilty of extremism.
It cannot be forgotten that Saddam was supplied mainly from the USA and UK with gas to curtail the Kurds and others.
When they hung Saddam their should have been a gallows big enough for Western politicians to follow suit.
If used 24hrs a day it would have taken months to finish the job..
36

,

27/03/2009 10:49:19
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37

puskas,

East kilbride 27/03/2009 10:50:04
No27...

How would you react if a family member or friend was tortured who you knew to be innocent.?

It could happen to anyone.

Would that make you change your views.?

I believe a figure of 700 has been mentioned who have been interned in Cuba. After many years how many have been charged with any crime.?
5 years ? no charges then why are they still interned..

Any human being with a sense of fairness surely would have to admit the system is discredited, unjust, and wrong for a civilized society to act in this manner..

Yeah, include rendition flights, some that have past through Scotland knowingly by the UK Government.

Not in my name...
38

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 27/03/2009 10:51:19
Save time. Send him back to Ethiopia and let them sort out his complaints. Why is it our problem? Let's grow up here and get harder as regards accusations like this.
39

puskas,

East kilbride 27/03/2009 10:56:47
Ingram, East Kilbride, and surrounding area MP.

£100,000 per year as a partime director with a company dealing in armour and munitions...

Reid
2x£50,000 per year partime directorships with companies dealing in security.

Only 2 of the dishonourable and insulting to the Scottish people and their local electorate.
40

puskas,

East kilbride 27/03/2009 11:02:46
Ingram many years ago a so-called man of the people once stayed in a council house in the Greenhills area.

The local newspaper EK News are forever giving positive soundbytes regards this deceitful person.

Moved up the gravy train into a very expensive house and possibly a millionaire on the backs of troops being killed in the Middle East..
41

puskas,

East kilbride 27/03/2009 11:06:14
No 43...

Yes............... Hilarious.

Was it Miliband or Straw who mentioned this in parliment.
.. Doubly hilarous .
42

puskas,

East kilbride 27/03/2009 11:07:55
No comment regards Reid and Ingram?
43

Silence of the Yams,

27/03/2009 11:21:10
41. Yep, heaven forbid these people stay in their own countries: It's against their "human rights" if they're not allowed to sqaut here on benefits and free housing, apparently. A change is gonna come...
44

PJ,

Edinburgh 27/03/2009 11:41:10
Binyam Mohamed was by his own admission trained in the Al-Qaeda terrorist training camp Al Farouq, although his supporters would have it that he had gone to conquer his drug problems…why couldn’t he get enough drugs where he lived? Or was it a case that the Taliban had a better source. Hold on a minute small-arms training, map-reading, orientation, explosives training, and other general terrorist and jihad-related skills…but nothing about drug rehabilitation in the camp brochure, I would be wanting my money back.

Bearing in mind Afghanistan was the leader in narcotics production, producing 93% of the world's entire opiates back in 2001, not an ideal place to “conquer his drug problem” now was it.

Boo-hoo poor wee man got tortured, my heart bleeds for him…not! What did he expect tea and biscuits?

The Taliban have no PoW camps and are not signatories to any international law or conventions. Most British soldiers would fight to the death rather than be captured by the Islamic Fundamentalist Taliban, who still believe in beheading, stoning people to death and public executions.

The Taliban having already beheaded numerous civilian hostages and teachers for the crime of educating girls. Sean Langan was a British film maker who was kidnapped by Taliban, he had been held in a dark basement and endured a number of mock executions before being released.

And who can forget the pictures of John Peters and John Nichol after four a day ordeal of torture and interrogation.
45

Los Angeles,

27/03/2009 11:42:44
Boo-hoo poor wee man got tortured, my heart bleeds for him. (PJ)

Your rant is torture of a sort, but I'll get over it without scars.
46

Los Angeles,

27/03/2009 11:45:36
The British Army goes to great lengths to treat Muslims with respect.(Brainless)

You omit instances of torture admitted - and regretted - by British army personal. You also claim war is clean, pure, and fought strictly by Marquis of Queensbury rules.

You are the fool.
47

Jimmy Le Pie,

27/03/2009 12:04:54
The rule of law has to be followed otherwise we'll head backwards to living like the Germans in the thirties.

Waiting for the knock at the door.

People sent to camps on the word of their neighbours.

People disappearing without trial.

What will you do when they come for you???
48

Displaced Scot,

UK 27/03/2009 12:09:42
Get rid of this person, we dont want him in our country, we owe him nothing.
The Gurkha's, well that is another story, they have put their lives at risk for this country, they are more than welcome, they have earned the right to live here as citizens.

Come on you wet aurthortarian liberals call me what you may. Do I care, no!
49

Los Angeles,

27/03/2009 12:12:46
The Gurkha's, well that is another story, they have put their lives at risk for this country, they are more than welcome, they have earned the right to live here as citizens (Displaced Scot)

That'll be why the British government threatened to send a bunch home, their case now under appeal.
50

Faux Cul,

27/03/2009 12:17:55
Bravo Voltaire, re torture.

However I'd still send the little toss_pot back to Ethiopia.
51

Veritas,

GLASGOW. 27/03/2009 12:18:26
Lies, damn lies etc. By whom?

Why not look at Operations 'Mass Appeal' and 'Rockingham'.

52

Tartan Viking,

27/03/2009 12:48:48
#53. Isn't it a sign of a looney society when we refuse to let the brave Gurkhas have automatic residence despite fighting for us for years, yet we approve of all sorts of undesireables staying here indefinately. Undesireables with known criminal records and who are a threat to our safety.
We are an absolutely warped and bampot society, and it is time for us to reclaim common sense and boot this inept Lyebour party out of office for good.

53

Boab,

Glasgow 27/03/2009 12:58:08
Agree with Jimmy La Pie et al.

Let's assume for a moment Binyan is a terrorist. Fairly likely, as he was caught in Pakistan with a dodgey visa.

Because he is a British citizen, we might expect him to be deported back to the UK and stand trial. This ensures that is methods would be made public, as well as the police methods which led to his capture. The actions of the British and Pakistani police, and MI6 would be transparent and accountable, there would be a report from an arresting officer and so on.

Trouble is, when you detain people without trial and torture them you are left with nothing but a very unreliable confession; secret services basically doing what they like without public scrutiny; increased support for Al Qaeda in the UK and abroad; Britain giving up sovereignty over terror suspects to the USA. It isn't going to do anything to beat terrorism.

We don't have institutions like trial by jury because we're nice and 'politically correct'. Take a look at the recent history of Northern Ireland if you want to see what happens when you given unaccountable government agencies a free rein to assassinate and torture suspects.
54

Observer,,

Glasgow 27/03/2009 12:59:12
If the man was given leave to remain in the UK, and he was, then there must be a reason why he can't go back to Ethiopia. I hardly think it will make matters any better if he is released from Guantanamo Bay and sent back to Ethipia to be treated potentially worse, by the UK Government who are at the same time having their security services investigated by their own Police force for collusion in torture.


Some of you people REALLY need to catch a grip.

This article is about personnel paid by the UK govt colluding in torture - and they have form for that in Northern Ireland. It is NOT an excuse to have one of your ususal go's at muslims and asylum seekers.

Address the point of the article please.



55

Tartan Viking,

27/03/2009 13:02:40
#57 Boab.

Correct me if I am wrong but this guy is NOT a British Citizen. He is a British Resident. Moving to another country and seeking asylum does NOT make you a citizen of that country FFS.
56

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

27/03/2009 13:27:46
48PJ, Edinburgh 27/03/2009 11:41:10
Binyam Mohamed was by his own admission trained in the Al-Qaeda terrorist training camp Al Farouq, although his supporters would have it that he had gone to conquer his drug problems…

================================

Binyam Mohamed came to our country seeking shelter and aid. We provided him with a home, money, food, medical treatment, education and a new life.

He decided to become a jihadist terrorist and plan bombing campaigns in the name of Islam. How did he managed to goto to Afghanistan and Pakistan. He has no family their. How did he afford it. Who paid for it.

These are important questions.

I once would have cared about him being tortured but now in the current security situation, it will only take one jihadist like him to succeed and we will be burying a lot of people in the UK.

Their is a Muslim conspiracy to over throw the western governments. It is called Islam & Jihad.

All the lefty wishful thinkers can hope all they want but the truth is coming. It is now about race it is about political ideology.

Islam is the most politically correct threat to society being protected by the politically correct and the politically inept.

Read Sharia Law, Read Qu'ran, Read the Hadith's, Read the many Islamic websites.

They are at war with us. They have just not officially announced it.
57

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

27/03/2009 13:29:05
Should have been "Islam is the most politically (IN)correct
58

Observer,,

Glasgow 27/03/2009 13:39:11
61 And what pray tell do you intend to do with Scottish muslims then ? If you percieve ''them'' to be at war with ''us'' (your distinction, not mine) ?
59

greenhill,

27/03/2009 13:46:59
RE Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,27/03/2009 13:27:46 :"Binyam Mohamed came to our country seeking shelter and aid. We provided him with a home, money, food, medical treatment, education and a new life."

He came here to take advantage of our kindness and generosity then turned against us.I have no doubt he was influenced by leftie nutbags as well as bearded muppets.

Now he returns to continue his Jihad by other means in alliance with the same idiots who hate our society and will take every oppertunity to undermine it.

Why do we bend over backwards to help these people attack us?

60

Snails dont like curry and chips,

Edinburgh 27/03/2009 14:09:26
Totally agree with the comments made by #7 - like most other people I can't understand why he was allowed back into the UK and why tax payers money is being wasted on him. What a bunch of mugs we are in Britain - most other countries would have booted him back to Ethiopia.
61

Guthrie,

Edinburgh 27/03/2009 14:14:41
Rules- there isn't any evidence that torture works. There is evidence to show that careful questioning of a suspect (as carried out by good policemen etc) works, but obviously thats too soft and time consuming for them to consider.

It is entirely possible to ask why he was in this country and review his right to be here at the same time as condemning the use of torture.

As for "24", there was a meeting a few years ago between the shows producers and some actual military brass who were concerned with its casual portrayal of successful torture chaning public attitudes for the worse.
62

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

27/03/2009 14:53:07
62Observer,, Glasgow 27/03/2009 13:39:11
61 And what pray tell do you intend to do with Scottish muslims then ? If you percieve ''them'' to be at war with ''us'' (your distinction, not mine) ?

==================================

Observer,

I find this a difficult question. I have a few Muslim friends who are really good people. Yet political Islam is definitely at War with us and it is clearly stated.

I suppose I hope they have a Muslim enlightenment and step away from the doctrines of hate and oppression.

As a women how do you view the teaching of the Qu'ran and the place of Women in a Sharia Law run state such as FATA in Pakistan.

63

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

27/03/2009 14:57:01
Observer,

I have a problem with Islam the political ideology. I do not have a problem with Muslims the people.

many of us are born into a system. I was born into the Free Church but walked away. It is the responsibility of Muslims to challenge what is being done in their name or walk away.

The world without God is a very pleasant one. Its just people doing crazy things making up justifications for their need to control.
64

,

27/03/2009 15:34:55
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65

greenhill,

27/03/2009 15:37:04
The problem we have is that Islamic clergy see the Koran as the word of God full stop. Islam has not reformed. On the other hand Judaism and Christianity have reformed: they now see their scriptures as human interpretation of divine inspiration.

Throughout the history of Christianity and Judaism most ordinary people were not doctrinaire. Christian clergymen have an expression: flock, in other words ordinary followers are sheep to be led by those who know best. However as stated the clergy in those particular religions have now reformed. On the other hand present day ordinary Muslims are mostly harmless “flock” but their clergy are still Wolves.

To make this unfortunate situation worse we must consider politically correct lefties who reckon that the Islamist nutters like “The Muslim Council of Britian” represent Muslims. This strengthens the hand of the fundamentalists amongst the Muslim “flock”.

This nutbaggery has been going on for decades and was spearheaded by the likes of Ken Livingstone but also taken up by idiots like Blair and Brown.
Now we are all paying the price. It is not just that the Iraq war was started on a falsity. The Labour blame goes much deeper.
66

plord,

edinburgh 27/03/2009 15:43:28
a lesson from history
Maurice Dufour was a Frenchman who worked for British intelligence and saved dozens of RAF pilots from the Nazis. His reward? He was taken to a secret chamber in London and tortured by de Gaulle’s security agents. And, as newly unearthed documents reveal, Britain simply mounted a massive cover-up. Investigation by Michael Bilton
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5887620.ece
67

Boab,

Glasgow 27/03/2009 15:49:15
#59 Viking - right enough, he was a 'resident' not a citizen, which is a pretty important distinction. But as far as I know, it means he still needs to abide by UK laws or face UK punishments, even while in Pakistan. Again, this isn't to be nice or PC, but so that the British public benefit from a public trial and an investigation, rather than flying suspects around the world to be tortured.
68

Boab,

Glasgow 27/03/2009 15:56:50
#60 Alasdair Mac - 'I once would have cared about him being tortured but now in the current security situation, it will only take one jihadist like him to succeed and we will be burying a lot of people in the UK.'

Erm, since when were detention without trial, and torture a fabulous cure for terrorism? Didn't work so well in Northern Ireland.
69

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

27/03/2009 16:03:40
69greenhill,

Religious leaders are a plague on all our houses but some more than others.

I have never felt any issue with the Hindu's, Buddists or the Jews. They conduct themselves in an exemplary in other people's countries and within other peoples cultures.

Islam is an arrogant religion and yet a not very clever one. It is so full of contradictory messages that manipulation of the young children within the Madras in Pakistan is very easy.

They are recruiting them very young at 5-7 and teaching them a black and white world view of Jihad and struggle in the name of God against the Evil west.

I read many religious texts as a hobby(Sad I know for an Athiest) The Islamists only source of Education in many countries is religious.

That being said they also have well educated jihadists like the Glasgow Airport doctors.

The common theme that these Jihadist use to describe their motivation and inspiration is Islam.

It is not for me to define them. They define themselves. The PC western media and BBC are just in political correct denial.
70

Boab,

Glasgow 27/03/2009 16:04:54
#68 PJ - neat analogy, but you put out that bird feeder out of the good of your heart; we didn't let immigrants in to the UK because we're nice people. Oops, your comment's gone.
71

greenhill,

27/03/2009 16:17:43
RE Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,27/03/2009 16:03:40

"I read many religious texts as a hobby(Sad I know for an Athiest) The Islamists only source of Education in many countries is religious."

My advice is to get into ancient Greek texts.I am also an atheist but I worship Poisiodon: I wish he was real.




72

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

27/03/2009 16:45:02
72Boab, Glasgow 27/03/2009 15:56:50
#60 Alasdair Mac - 'I once would have cared about him being tortured but now in the current security situation, it will only take one jihadist like him to succeed and we will be burying a lot of people in the UK.'

Erm, since when were detention without trial, and torture a fabulous cure for terrorism? Didn't work so well in Northern Ireland.

======================================
I accept your point. I have never agreed with the London policies in Northern Ireland. Nor did I support the actions on the other side in Northern Ireland.

But at what point do you start to be proactive about the cuckoo's in the nest.

73

Tartan Viking,

27/03/2009 16:49:28
#75 invictager,Kent

"Why is nuliebour taking in potential terorists while ignoring serious crimes regarding the missuse of British passports. That is the real question we need an answer to."

I agree with you. If I interfered with my passport I would expect to do a stretch in the slammer. It is a serious crime. No doubt about it. So why on earth has this guy not been deported back to Ethiopia for committing a jailable offence? Why has he been allowed to stay here if his legal right to do so expired many years ago? Now he is sitting here and suing us!! You could'nt make this up. It is completely and utterly bonkers.
74

Observer,,

Glasgow 27/03/2009 16:56:25
66 Alasdair in my view ALL the Abrahamic religions contain within them the potential for evil, Islam is no exception, however I don't see it as being intrinsically worse. What we are seeing with violent interpretations of what for many people is a religion of peace, is an extreme reaction to political events. What led to the establishment of groups such as Al Quida and the Islamic state of Iran ? What is driving people to these extreme and dangerous views ? I don't think you can counter extremism with extremism, and abandoning the rule of law because we are suspicious of an individual is extreme in my book.

I think these are political problems and they are there to be solved politically, or not. Brute force, torture, internment, suspension of civil liberty - none of these actions have ever defeated a terrorist cause. And they won't defeat this ''cause'' either.

Every time we treat a muslim country or a muslim person as not having the same rights we accord ourselves, we make the situation worse, because we are feeding the terrorists.
75

greenhill,

27/03/2009 17:37:13
REObserver,,Glasgow 27/03/2009 16:56:25 :66 Alasdair in my view ALL the Abrahamic religions contain within them the potential for evil,

This is evasive:On the whole Islam has not reformed to the same extent as the others.

However we must make a distiction between Islam and Muslims (flock).
76

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

27/03/2009 18:09:32
Observer,

As always you bring reason and a level of decency that I personally fall short off.

I dispute the point about the religion of Peace. Please feel free to correct me on that one but is doctrine or action it is a far from peaceful religion.

Islam is to peace what the labour party are to socialism.
77

greenhill,

27/03/2009 18:32:32
RE:Observer,,Glasgow 27/03/2009 16:56:25 :"What we are seeing with violent interpretations of what for many people is a religion of peace,"

e.g. Clinton,Blair,Bush have all stated that Islam is a "religion of peace". I have read the Koran and it is despicable just like it's opportunistic apologists.

Geert Wilders wants the Koran banned and compares it to Mein Kampf. That is an insult to Mein Kampf which is mild by comparison.
78

Tartan Viking,

27/03/2009 19:08:19
#81 invictager,Kent

I am not surprised. It is a very serious offence. So the question is;-

Why do I, a legal citizen of this country, the country of my birth, my parents' birth, their parents' birth (etc etc - continue a few centuries)risk being imprisoned for 10 years for an offence that another non citizen gets away with?

Is there discrimination within the legal system we should know about?
79

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

27/03/2009 19:31:45
#83 Greenhill.

I too have read the Quran and the accompanying interpretations from the various different scholars. I started out looking for reasons to justify the "Religion of Peace" as i have said previously I like to read religious texts.

I was shocked at much of what I read and the level of detail surrounding the rules of conduct.

The Islamic world does not believe all people are equal. They clearly have different rules concerning Infidels, Apostates, Women, Dhimmi's, idolitors and people(Muslims)

When they state you should not kill. They mean other Muslims. They also have facilities and procedures to mislead and lie to those who are uninformed and trusting.

Google the following terms then read them then check them against many sources then lets discuss the religion of peace.

Abrogations; Appeasement; Ceasefire; Dar'al Harb; Dar'al Islam; Dhimmi; Fitna; Gazwa; Halal; Jihad ; Jizyah; Kafir; Kitman; Najis:Purity; Shahadah; Shaytan;Taqiyya; Muslimah.

Then once you have familiarised yourself with all of these terms we can return and discus their relevance to Christians and Jews.
80

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

27/03/2009 19:35:24
#85 Ali Mac

Greenhill

That was not meant for you. It was meant for the appeasers who believe their is not a problem with political Islam.

As I have said before I have Muslim friends and they are good people but they do not represent the views of the religion or the teachings of the religion.
81

Observer,,

Glasgo 27/03/2009 20:09:12
85 ''Islam does not believe all people are equal''. That's right, neither does the Catholic Church (for example). And some Jews in Israel have got very wacky ideas about Arabs they justify with religion. And Sarah Palin thought God was behind the invasion of Iraq. There are nutjobs associated with all religions, and none - Stalin for example was an atheist. You can interpret religions any way you want, personally I look forward to the day when religion dies out altogether as we are all grown up enough not to believe in a silly God. But as God and religion are man made, men can make of them what they wish. They can apply their religion wisely and with love, or they can apply it stupidly and with violence and hate. I don't think you can sort people out according to what faith they adhere to, more by what they do. And to get back to the point ''we'' have slaughtered many many many more of ''them, than ''they'' have ''us''. That doesn't make the Judaic/Christian religious affinity associated with the West an evil religion, any more than the Islam associated with the East is.
82

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

27/03/2009 20:20:35
#87 Observer,

I do not disagree with anything you say about religions needing to be faded out gradually.

The Jews are under threat more than any other religion. they have suffered more than any other people yet they prosper and succeed. I am not suprised they have lost faith in Human kindness.

I also share your concerns with the religious right in the USA which seems to always go hand in hand with a lack of decent education. Palin was a whack job.

None of these religions have the same justification. Most of the western aggression is against the teachings of their respective churches.

What is your comment on the Islamic Terms I provided? Where is the corresponding aspects in other religions.

I also do agree we have behaved terribly in the East by stealing resources and manipulating peoples. I would like to see us withdraw from Iraq and Afghanistan. It is not our place to force our values upon them. The freedoms we share in the West are their if they want them. but I refuse to accept backward views of society being brought to this country and accepted as diversity and multiculturism.

As a Women you must surely reject much of the teachings of islam and their view that you are fractionally as important as a man. I reject the view that women are not equal and would reject Islam on that reason alone.
83

Observer,,

Glasgow 27/03/2009 21:07:27
88 I reject Islam completely, as I reject Christianity, and the Judaism of my own forefathers. I'm a cheeful atheist. I do however despair at the situation in the middle East which is having such an effect on the rest of the world. I don't see any goodies and baddies at all. In relation to a backward view of society being imported into this country - I have never been treated with anything other than extreme courtesy by the muslim Scots I encounter on a daily basis. Their culture is not mine, but I don't sense any degree of threat. There is no evidence to support the presence of extremism in the Scottish muslim community - the Glasgow bombers were from abroad. For every extremist term you can offer I can point to my neighbours and the people I went to school with and that I work with, and muslim Scots such as Bashir Ahmed. That is my experience of Islam and it has been a happy one. That's all I can say.
84

Thistledhu,

27/03/2009 21:38:36
countless people from this country have been maimed tortured beheaded and murderd. british service personel killed and barely a passing comment. one foreign National with a very dubiuose past makes claims against the security service and we are sopposed to wring our hands in anguish Fraid not

i could not care less
85

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 27/03/2009 23:42:35
Observer wrote:
>> What is driving people to these extreme and dangerous views ?<<

Your views on Islam are somewhat naive. It isn't a religion of peace. What is driving people to 'extreme and dangerous views' is Islam itself. The intrinsic violence of Islam is logically derived from Mohammed's example & teachings.

Don't get me wrong. There are many decent Muslims around. But they are decent not because of Islam, but in spite of Islam. Islam itself (according to Hadith and Mohammeds own example) is a political ideology many times more extreme or evil than say Nazism.

Comparing Islam to other religions is incorrect because Islam is inherently political, whilst other religions have a separation (eg render to Caesar...). In Islam there is no separation.

Mohammed killed people for political reasons and advocated the killing of people for 'apostasy' or for 'speaking against him' in order to keep his power base unified. If you look at genuine religious leaders (Buddha, Jesus etc) they taught loving your enemies etc. This is why Islam cannot be reformed. It is based on Mohammed's teachings and example - it is literally worse than basing a religion on hitler. Even hitler didn't have sex with nine yr old girls.

The solution? No idea.
86

Observer,,

Glasgow 27/03/2009 23:59:42
I think there are a lot of people who post on Islam who don't know any muslims. That's all I can say.
87

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/03/2009 00:02:22
Or indeed who have never read any of the more spectacular parts of the Old Testament (and let's bear in mind that Jesu was a Jewish rabbi - so it's wholly relevant).
88

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/03/2009 00:04:18
''The solution? No idea.''

How chilling.

The comparators between the language used about the Jews and now the Muslims are scary.
89

,

28/03/2009 00:16:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
90

,

28/03/2009 00:21:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
91

Los Angeles,

28/03/2009 00:21:38
Even hitler didn't have sex with nine yr old girls. (Riemann)

And you have that on Hitler's oath, his mother's, his minister's, his doctor's?

What a strange thing to say, to make Hitler appear Mr Nice Guy. You have a Jewish name, yes? Even stranger.

By the way, it's most unfortunate statement considering the domestic evil we have just witnessed of an incestuous Austrian father.




92

Los Angeles,

28/03/2009 00:23:57
Some excellent posts from the right wing on here. Well done. (Steve)

I doubt you'd be able to find the Right-Wing, as you call it, it being so distant from the jailers and sadists you admire.

"Well done"? You are saluting your own post?


93

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 28/03/2009 00:26:11
Observer wrote:

>>I think there are a lot of people who post on Islam who don't know any muslims. <<

If you read my post you would understand my criticism is of Islam itself - not individual Muslims. I also pointed there are many decent Muslims - but this was in spite of Islam. Yes I know quite a few Muslims - the reason I pointed out the fact of decent Muslims.

However, unlike yourself, I am well versed in what the Hadith says, and what Mohammed actually did in his life. The Quran is ultimately interpretated through the prism of these latter two.

Rather than trying to understand Islam by 'knowing some Muslims' I suggest you understand Islam by its fundamental reference points - namely Quran, Hadith, Mohammed's life. Otherwise you are simply demonstrating ignorance.

"The comparators between the language used about the Jews and now the Muslims are scary."

Again you fail to understand something quite elementary. You are confusing criticism of Islam with criticism of all Muslim persons. Are you really unable to grasp such a simple distinction?
94

Los Angeles,

28/03/2009 00:30:24
On the other hand Judaism and Christianity have reformed: they now see their scriptures as human interpretation of divine inspiration. (Greensleeves)

Well, they do say ninety percent of opinion on Internet websites is erroneous, and your post must constitute most of that.

By the way, almost all you write stretching beyond half-an-inch in length smacks of plagiarism - paragraphs culled from books. Nothing you say there matches your mouth when you speak off the cuff.

I thought you should be told.
95

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 28/03/2009 00:33:03
Los Angeles wrote:
>>What a strange thing to say, to make Hitler appear Mr Nice Guy. You have a Jewish name, yes? Even stranger.<<

Cauchy and Riemann were two well known Mathematicians. Well I thought they were well known - apparently not by your confusion.

I'm not aware that I was trying to make Hitler out to be a nice guy - I was using the concept of comparison.

Hitler, though an evil little runt and founding an evil ideology, was not as 'extreme' as Mohammed in either lifestyle or in ideology. Comparison. How anyone can think this is some sort of 'hitler is a nice guy' statement is beyond me.
96

Thistledhu,

28/03/2009 00:37:02
i think this thread has wanderd off to condem these people as most rightly do is not to be anti Muslim if a term is needed it is Islamists though i know many reasonable muslims would have an issue with giveing these criminals this tag but they are extremeist who use the Koran for there own porposes
97

Los Angeles,

28/03/2009 00:44:45
If you read my post you would understand my criticism is of Islam itself - not individual Muslims. I also pointed there are many decent Muslims - but this was in spite of Islam. Yes I know quite a few Muslims - the reason I pointed out the fact of decent Muslims. (Reimann)

Hair splitting and cliche spouting.

To criticise Islam IS to criticise Muslims, just as to criticise Christianity is to criticise us, we the whey-faced, scared westerners, the reason being our society is completely infused with the mores and values of Christian teaching, whether you believe in it or not. Why do you think so many non-church-goers are screaming for Muslims to be repatriated?

You are confusing the institution of the church or mosque, it's interpretation of the message of its diety, with the actual diety they worship. What He might have said in reality (if He ever lived) is normally quite different from what others wrote in the scriptures, or His representative chooses to tell us on the day of worship.

It's called Chinese whispers.

Let us not deny Christianity has been the cause of the bloodiest massacres in human history. Our record remains unchallenged, even to this day, and we se to it it never will be.

We are truly a blood thirsty and self-righteous people.




I really think you have no idea what you are talking about.


That is a risible statement.

98

Los Angeles,

28/03/2009 00:46:59
Hitler, though an evil little runt and founding an evil ideology, (Reimann)

How many Jews did he have murdered, and how many Europeans, Poles, Russians, Gypsies, Brits .... oh, Austrians and Germans too?
99

Thistledhu,

28/03/2009 00:52:02
we often use Hitler when stalin was as evil just he had the benifit of being on the winning side
100

greenhill,

28/03/2009 05:07:13

RE "Los Angeles": "By the way, almost all you write stretching beyond half-an-inch in length smacks of plagiarism - paragraphs culled from books. Nothing you say there matches your mouth when you speak off the cuff.

I thought you should be told."
....................................................



I often write(longer stuff) using Dragon voice control on Word(or Dragonpad) then edit copy edit paste.I use my own words.I sometimes recycle my own words when I come across the same old points being raised.

In contrast you have a poor command of the English language and very little of substance to say.

I thought you should be told.

 

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