Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

 
 
Saturday, 6th September 2008

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the The Scotsman site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Attacks on Poles 'fuelled by the BBC's coverage of immigration'



Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 05 June 2008
THE BBC has been accused of fuelling attacks on Poles by exploiting them to highlight immigration rather than using other ethnic minority arrivals for fear of being branded racist.
The criticism was made by Daniel Kawczynski, a Conservative MP of Polish extraction.

He highlighted his concerns in the Commons when he introduced a bill calling for a bank holiday to mark the positive contribution Poles have made to the UK since
1940. It has little chance of becoming law.

His claims were strongly denied by the BBC, which has insisted its coverage has been balanced and pointed to a lack of statistics to prove his claims of sustained assaults on Poles.

However, echoing remarks he had made earlier in the day on the BBC Radio 4's Today programme, Mr Kawczynski told a Commons' debate:

"The liberal elite of the BBC constantly refer to immigration from Poland because they are using the Polish community as a cat's paw to try to tackle the thorny issue of mass unchecked immigration.

"They realise immigration needs to be discussed and has become uncontrolled, but they don't dare refer to controversial immigration from other (areas]."

The Shrewsbury and Atcham MP added: "I have many cases of an increase in violence towards Poles in this country and I am convinced (it] is as a result of the media coverage by the BBC."

A spokesman for the BBC said: "These are serious allegations and there was no evidence given in Mr Kawczynski's interview to back them up.

"To say the BBC doesn't run stories about other immigrant groups and simply concentrates on the Poles is not true. For instance, recently there has been coverage of other eastern European migrant workers in the fruit-picking industry and a report on the routes taken by immigrants from West Africa into Europe and the UK."

Mr Kawczynski's claims were also disputed by the Federation of Poles in Great Britain.

Viktor Moszczynski, the group's spokesman, said it had more problems with tabloid newspapers which used Polish migration to launch a sustained "anti-European" agenda.

PROFILE

AT 6ft 8in, Daniel Kawcynski is the tallest MP to sit in the House of Commons.

His relatives came to Britain in 1940 after Germany invaded Poland.

He was brought up in Surrey before studying business, French and Spanish at Stirling University, where he met his wife, Kate. The couple now have a daughter.

The 35-year-old worked in telecommunications for ten years as an international account manager, travelling extensively in Europe, the Middle East and Africa before taking the seat of Shrewsbury from Labour in 2005.

A member of the right-leaning Cornerstone Group, Mr Kawcynski is removed from the "Cameroons" running the Conservative Party.

Mr Kawcynski recently chased and caught two shoplifters who tried to take ten shirts from a menswear shop in London.





The full article contains 481 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Highland Silly,

05/06/2008 00:23:42
I have it on good authority that racism has gone up in the UK during the last 10 years of the Labour administration at Westminster. The buck lands with them.
2

,

05/06/2008 00:24:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
3

Maisie from Morningside,

05/06/2008 00:56:50
Are there any figures to support this MP's assertion or is he just another rent-a-mouth?
4

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 05/06/2008 00:58:34
"Attacks on Poles 'fuelled by the BBC's coverage of immigration"

Are we sure we are talking about Scotland here,?

I think the Scottish People have great attitudes to our now, Polish Population.

Lets have the facts!
5

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 05/06/2008 00:59:51

Why Decry Scotland!,??
6

Watson,

Irvine 05/06/2008 01:22:59
Well the BBC or should it really be the EBC has had a racist quality for years so I'm not surprised with this story. Still, every cloud has a silver lining, their racism has certainly encouraged Scottish independence.
7

truthsleuth,

05/06/2008 01:25:11
The man is smack on the nose.
The poles are invisible until they speak.
The BBC and others hide behind the poles when the complaint of most of the indigenous UK population is on the massive number of immigrants fom asia africa
in particular illegals though the problem is deeperc than this.

Most politicians are frightened of upsetting these populations because of the way their votes (en bloc and of doubtful democratic reflection) can swing an election.

The BBC and others are frightened of the coloured vote in particular and dead scared of calling a spade a spade for fear of being called racist even though the argument is about immigration.
Its about time we stopped cowering in fear of the racist cry and stood up for our way of life at each and every election.
This would make politicians reflect the views of the majority rather than the false cries of small power religious and ethnic blocs.
8

,

05/06/2008 01:25:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
9

Hmm ...,

05/06/2008 01:31:07
... time to recognise that the Poles working here are giving the locals a good example by their work ethic - and that is perhaps part of the problem.

Our feckless "underclass" is too idle to get a job and relies on handouts from our Labour government - no wonder the money men are "critical" of Gordon's policies!
10

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 05/06/2008 02:02:35
Conan re~9,

I know this, we are both intelligent People, I don't post without reasonable knowledge on a subject, although maybe, I get to the fact of the matter in away that is not always coherent for some.

Thing is on this subject, I work in the public sector, and also my DYW and I are 'People-of-the-town' Soo to speak!

Always keeping in,..'the-know' albeit its DYW who attributes to this, with her constant, we gotta do this, we gotta do that, we gotta go here, we gotta go there attitude!

Poor Charles gets 'Worn-Out'

Quite Honestly, I have never come across any Polish victimisation on my travels, in-fact it seems, we have welcomed the "Poles" into our Society as far as I can see it!

On another note though, as you all know,...
the 'Word Baby' is important to My DYW and I,

The Polish Women we see in Edinburgh, seem to be more family orientated in becoming 'Pregnant' than the Scottish Women!
Just walk around 'Tesco's' to see that!

I am not decrying this fact, but it is a touch sad the Scottish Population, don't want the same.

A 'Proof' of this, is in our 'Shopping Centers'!

Did you all know, 'Scottish People' don't get Pregnant no-more!

The,,..'Gyle Shopping Centre' in Edinburgh, has NOT one shop you can purchase, 'Maternity Wear' in! NOT even M&S!
But I am sure this will change, now we have a "Polish" Population!

Shame on the Scots!
11

Jwil,

05/06/2008 02:04:31
Some times I am amazed at how irresponsible the BBC can be. Disclosing bomb making chemicals to the public when commenting on stories about terrorism for example.

Also when they interview someone who does not want their identity disclosed they show side shots, silouettes, back of the head shots and long camera shots, which show quite clearly the characteristics of the person and what type of clothing he/she is wearing (this happened in a recent interview in with a Zimbabwean suporter of the opposition).
12

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 05/06/2008 02:07:13

My post at #11 is of complete accuracy! as in the,..
'Here and Now!
13

Huistean baxter,

ontario 05/06/2008 02:22:05
During WW2 i had a lot of contact with Polish soldiers and found them very polite ETC. I don't think they received the recognition they were due as Pilots especially as fighter pilots.They were GOOD.
14

Bejjy,

05/06/2008 04:01:25
#1

I have it on good authority that racism has gone up in the UK during the last 10 years of the Labour administration at Westminster. The buck lands with them.

O yea, and what is that authority of which you speak? Enlighten us please.
15

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 05/06/2008 06:40:11
"THE BBC has been accused of fuelling attacks on Poles by exploiting them to highlight immigration rather than using other ethnic minority arrivals for fear of being branded racist."

There's a basic confusion there between a migrant group, and an ehtnic minority group. You can't reasonably describe people who have newly arrived in a country, who don't hold its citizenship, and who don't intend to stay permanently, as an "ethnic minority".

Not a good article.
16

yockel,

05/06/2008 06:46:21
#15 There's more of them so it follows there are more attacks. Don't know if the BBC has anything to do with that but they do seem to ... (guess the every day expression the Hootsmon thinks is unsuitable).... the real problem and play down the fact that the Polish are one of the groups who are leaving the UK at the highest rate. Thay are not daft you see.
17

Janis B,

london 05/06/2008 07:08:57

Post 14 A famous landmark on the main road from West London is the Polish War Memorial. It is there as a permanent memorial to Polish forces based at nearby Northolt Aerodrome.

According to some of our neighbourhood Poles, many of the recent working immigrants are leaving the UK. Since the pound has dropped against the euro, Poles are seeking jobs in EC countries within the euro currency band. Eire is
popular with them now, so lucky for Ireland.
18

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 05/06/2008 07:26:34
Yup, the Poles are welcome on this side of the border, that's for sure. The amount of abuse I have heard levied at Poles is equal or less than the amount of abuse the Scots aim at each other.
19

,

05/06/2008 07:34:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
20

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

05/06/2008 07:40:36
#20 You are perpetuating the myth that there are no racists in our midst. Unfortunately that is far from the truth:

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Thug-jailed-for-attack-on.4148922.jp

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/7358197.stm

http://news.scotsman.com/scotland/Rugby-player-who-assaulted-Polish.4094333.jp

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7350036.stm

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.1663160.0.0.php

That was just a quick search - I'm sure there are many more unreported incidents. Groups such as the BNP have targetted the Polish influx to fuel their racist politics.

We are from being the anti-racist paradise taht soem would have us believe.
21

,

05/06/2008 07:47:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
22

donald,

glasgow 05/06/2008 08:01:00
The Herald forgot to put a kilt on this agency computer report.
23

donald,

glasgow 05/06/2008 08:02:13
Sorry. Taht should be the 'Scotdman', the other Brit paper.
24

donald,

glasgow 05/06/2008 08:02:26
Sorry. Taht should be the 'Scotdman', the other Brit paper.
25

donald,

glasgow 05/06/2008 08:02:46
That and 'Scotsman' typos.
26

,

05/06/2008 08:04:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
27

scunnin,

Germany 05/06/2008 08:19:41
I have to say I have heard both Poles and Brits side of this story. I am an Ex-pat from Edinburgh living in Germany and I often go home and hear someone whining on about how the Poles have taken the lower end jobs and how they keep stealing jobs from people in the UK.

I have friends who are Poles, and you know what they want? To work, thats all like all of us. They often do jobs that people in the UK refuse to do. Scotland generally is very balanced and very tolerant of other cultures, languages and colours and creeds which makes me proud of Scotland.

The BBC has not revealed any real facts about the Poles or immigrants, but as an immigrant in Germany I can quite imagine how the Poles are treated. I have heard many stories of people wanting not to give the Poles benefits of unemployment money or pension money or medical help... but why if they pay there taxes shouldnt they get that benefit?

I pay my taxes in Germany, I get those benefits so why shouldnt they? You know we are a great nation, obviously the BBC has missed this part and is out to criticise. Go to London and see how intolerant the english are against others.
28

happy english,

London 05/06/2008 08:33:41
I am sorry but the Poles in this country are sending most of there money home, they claim Family Allowance and Family Tax Credits and they send it to there families back in Poland which means the money is not being put back into Britain.As your horses were no match for metal we as a Country were no better of, at Dover and around the South coast our guns were made of wood and rows of tanks were made of wood (saw that on the Discovery channel) it is about having the guts to stand up to people, these people and the French too just gave up and left Britain on there own. I do agree that there were some Poles that came to Britain and helped especially with the Battle of Britain. As for Church levels would it not be better that levels were rising through Scots attending Church rather then relying on Eastern Europeans to fill the Churches.
29

W Smith,

Middle East 05/06/2008 08:51:00
#27 Jammy Dodger and #28 Scunnin

Well said.

In WW2 one out of every six pilots in the RAF were Polish.

Many Polish soldiers were stationed in Fife and many stayed on in Scotland after the war.

These guys actually earned their British passports unlike a certain group of "asians" I could think of who are alway bleeting about their 'rights'.
30

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 09:38:00
#29:

"I am sorry but the Poles in this country are sending most of there money home, they claim Family Allowance and Family Tax Credits and they send it to there families back in Poland which means the money is not being put back into Britain."

So you personally speak to Poles and know for a fact that they do that? I very much doubt it so stop making up substantiated rumours and presenting them as facts.

"it is about having the guts to stand up to people, these people and the French too just gave up and left Britain on there own."

You clearly have no idea about the Polish contribution to WW2 - the country was overrun in a surprise attack by far superior German and Soviet armies and had no real chance to stop the attack. Poland never officially surrendered to Germany, there was no puppet government and the Poles continued to resist German occupation throughout the war. The Polish army and air force were an important part of the allied forces.

In future get your facts right before you start spouting off about things you clearly don't have any knowledge of.
31

Findlay Thompson,

05/06/2008 09:41:43
Without word of a lie these 'Politically Correct’ agitators will be the first against the wall come the glorious day.

#28

"Scotland generally is very balanced and very tolerant of other cultures, languages and colours and creeds which makes me proud of Scotland".

That is a very broad-minded although inaccurate opinion. The real world indicates tolerance to other cultures, creeds etc. is remarkably limited indeed.
32

oder,

Scotland 05/06/2008 09:46:54
22 happy english,London

almost 38% of all German Aircraft shot down during the battle of Britain was attributed to the Polish pilots
they stood with Britain in her greatest hour of need during the war there were many Poles in Scotland and well like by the locals and with a few exceptions that still is the case today! as for them sending money home to Poland the British have being doing that for hundreds of years from their colonies so they are not much different from us!tax benefit applies to all EU citizens if you lived in Europe you too will be able to claim the same benefits there!
33

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 09:57:27
#32

"Without word of a lie these 'Politically Correct’ agitators will be the first against the wall come the glorious day."

What 'glorious day' are you refering to? Do you think the BNP will somehow gain power and then execute all the 'politically correct agitators'? If so you must be extremely deluded and clearly lack even a miniscule amount of intelligence.
34

scottish person,

paisley 05/06/2008 09:59:34
I watched the programme, it was disgusting. It was run and compared by two coloured people who never mentioned the asain or black extraction who come here and pimp a couple of woman and live off the government. The Poles come here and work, they also mix with the locals unlike the muslims. Oh and they dont blow up people and property.
35

Ananurhing,

05/06/2008 10:02:02
There has been a long history of migration between Poland and Scotland. Both ways. Many Scots merchants settled in Poland in the 17th & 18thC. Some were embraced into mainstream Polish society and held positions of power. There is also recorded racism directed against Scots, who were regarded as avaricious traders.
I have many friends who are descended from Polish stock. I believe Polton in Midlothian is named after Polish immigrants.
When you wander around supermarkets, it's easy to spot Poles. They're usually tall, lean, and healthy looking.
The sooner they start to breed with the locals the better. Amongst the many other benefits they bring to this country, our gene pool needs them.
36

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 10:05:14
#35

What program are you refering to? The article talks about the BBC's coverage of immigration in particular, it does not mention any particular program.

"never mentioned the asain or black extraction who come here and pimp a couple of woman and live off the government. The Poles come here and work, they also mix with the locals unlike the muslims. Oh and they dont blow up people and property."

You are clearly extremely racist and bigoted, you cannot generalise an entire race, religion or colour.
37

D..S.,

Edinburgh 05/06/2008 10:17:07
For those that think we are totally tolerant on the Polish community, here is a chilling tale.

I was looking to take on two drivers a while back I had several applicants 7 were from poles, Luckily my office were doing their job and when checking records and driving license details it was discovered 4 of the Poles that applied had used the exact same driving license details only the picture had been changed. This was obviously reported to the authorities and has been dealt with. However speaking to other acquaintances and general discussions Iam not alone in this scenario, where Poles have been using false documents/papers and or driving licenses to obtain work. Even had jusy one of the Poles applied and we employed him based on his information etc, then our insurance would have been invalid, god forbid had he had an acident and hurt an innocent person what the consequences could have been.

As i say Iam not alone in this situation and iam sure there are many others out there that could even be employing Poles (Or other nationalities for that matter) with illegal/false documents.

The reason the Polish community Is experiencing this so much is because of the vast Polish population in and around Edinburgh (Some say upwards of 50,000)

It was not so long ago we had in the News a story regarding Romanian woman begging on our streets, Mini-buses dropping them off at various points in the city centre to sit all day begging.

I do believe this Government has a lot to answer for with regard to immagration, Im all for freedom of movement and employment within the EU, however tighter controls regarding immagration etc have to be put in place and acted upon, more extensive vetting has to be carried out at immagration and even employment level.

It is worrying to know there will be Immagrants working within our country in work places that could be potentially dangerous to themselves their co-workers and the general public, who are not qualified and have obtaine
38

D..S.,

Edinburgh 05/06/2008 10:18:00
who are not qualified and have obtained these jobs with false/illegal papers and documents.
39

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 10:26:35
#38

"I do believe this Government has a lot to answer for with regard to immagration, Im all for freedom of movement and employment within the EU, however tighter controls regarding immagration etc have to be put in place and acted upon".

You appear to be contradicting yourself, you say you are in favour of freedom of movement and employment within the EU but then you say there should be tighter controls regarding 'immagration' (sic). If you didn't realise, Poland is an EU country, this means they have freedom of movement and employment within the EU and you cannot restrict the immigration of Poles to the UK.
40

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 10:43:07
We should have an Australian style points based system for all immigrants regardless of whether they are from within or outwith the EU.

Our current "open for everyone" policy is absolutely absurd and frankly criminal.
41

Findlay Thompson,

05/06/2008 10:46:49
#37

“You are clearly extremely racist and bigoted, you cannot generalise an entire race, religion or colour.”

Can you recall WWII, I believe the US Government in their wisdom sectioned most Japanese Americans. Some of these people were 2nd, 3rd & 4th generation. Why were they sectioned? Maybe, because they were a potential threat to the society of the time, whom was at war with Japan.

I believe our politicians have in recent times mentioned the UK was “at war with terror” the terror group being primarily Islamic extremists. Are we “generalising” Muslims at present or will there be a time in the future when we section the UK Muslim population? Think before you hit the keyboard.

NB. My good wife of 13 years was born in Nth East Africa, I think her race is classified as Negro.
42

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 10:54:37
#41

"We should have an Australian style points based system for all immigrants regardless of whether they are from within or outwith the EU. Our current "open for everyone" policy is absolutely absurd and frankly criminal."

The UK is getting a points based system for non-EU immigrants. Maybe you should read up on the EU - there cannot be a points based system for EU citizens - it is against EU law. Also the UK does not have an 'open for everyone' policy, non-EU immigrants have always had to have a work permit to emigrate here.
43

Miss H,

05/06/2008 10:59:16
I am always amused by people who are anti-immigration and advocate the Australian approach to immigration.

Does poster 41 realise that since 1945, over 6 million people from 200 countries have come to Australia as economic migrants - meaning that just under one third of the population are either immigrants or descended from recent immigrants. There are nowhere near the number of economic migrants as that in Scotland. It is far from certain whether Scotland could actually attract that scale of migration even if we were to have an open door policy as he asserts.

It’s another example of someone whose opinions on immigration are based on utter ignorance.
44

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 11:05:19
#42

No I can't recall WW2 I wasn't born then, but just because the US interned 120,000 Japanese during the war doesn't mean it was right. There is a major difference between the 2 examples however. The entire population of Japan was at war with the US during WW2, only a tiny percentage of muslims in the UK are extremists.

Are you suggesting that all 1.5 million muslims in the UK should be put into some kind of internment camp?

Would you also have put every Irish catholic in the UK in internment camps during the IRA bombing campaign?
45

Upandunder,

05/06/2008 11:07:50
We should have an Oz-style immigration. Come here to work. All the Poles I've come across do exactly that.

The real problem in the UK is not immigrants coming in to do our grottier jobs - more the fact that we haven't got the guts as a nation to tell our legions of won't-works living off the Benefits system to get a job.

For starters, 16-year-olds should be banned from leaving school unless they have a job lined up. And all under-30s who don't find a job within three months should be put on compulsory military service or have thir benefits stopped. That'd soon get them out of the pubs and car boot pitches!
46

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 11:14:27
#43 Do you understand the word "should" as in "We should have an Australian style points based system for all immigrants regardless of whether they are from within or outwith the EU"?

If it isn't possible under EU law then our best plan is to leave the EU. All immigration, repeat all immigration from anywhere to this country should have a firm control system. ie. points based or you don't get in.
47

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 11:21:27
#47

"Do you understand the word "should" as in "We should have an Australian style points based system for all immigrants regardless of whether they are from within or outwith the EU"?"

Of course I understand the word 'should' but there is no point saying we should have something if there is no chance of it happening. I could say that everyone in the UK should be given £1m by the government but I won't because its a ludicrous idea that will never happen.

"If it isn't possible under EU law then our best plan is to leave the EU."

The UK isn't going to leave the EU, an independent Scottish isn't going to leave the EU, so why bother talking about a points-based system for EU citizens IT ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN.
48

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 11:25:24
#48 Don't be so defeatist. Anything can happen as people slowly wake up to what has been robbed from them. Not just Britain but also Spain and France have seen huge immigration problems and riots. While the liberal left persist in forcibly holding down the lid on the pressure cooker of immigration all that is really happening is they are putting off the day to an ever bigger bang. Some of us here would like to see a more constructive approach and a defusing of the situation before it is too late.
49

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 11:36:13
#49

Neither UKIP or the BNP are ever going to win an election so Britain isn't going to leave the EU.

I would be interested though to get your views on what form your points-based system would take. Would you suggest that only highly skilled or skilled migrants with a job offer should be allowed into the UK? In that case who would fill the fruit picking, cleaning and retail jobs that are currently being taken by Eastern Europeans?
50

Calum Crubag,

05/06/2008 11:40:47
#49 - a lot of the Spanish don't like the immigrant Brits in Spain. Who, unlike the Poles, don't work hard or bring many benefits. Imagine if Brits abroad suffered these attacks.

As a Scot, i've always been welcomed abroad.
51

Defiant,

Salfors/England 05/06/2008 11:41:57
Of course if the Poles went around terrorising people like one particular middle eastern religion the BBC would be much more kinda to them
52

Defiant,

Salford/England 05/06/2008 11:43:20
Calum Crubag, the Brits in Spain take money which is a damn site more than the majority of the immigrants who come here but don't let facts get in the way
53

Allan(handofgod137),

05/06/2008 11:45:29
#45 Yes and yes.
54

Defiant,

Salford/England 05/06/2008 11:46:00
"an independent Scottish isn't going to leave the EU, so why bother talking about a points-based system for EU citizens IT ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN."

An an independent Scottish would have to apply to get in the EU but I don't think it would be a problem considering the EU wants Britain broken up so its easier for them to manage
55

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 11:48:20
#50 Of course the points system would only allow qualified people in as per our needs within this country.

Picking fruit can be done by our own un-skilled unemployed people (or their benefits should be removed). I would include single mums with children; instead of just getting huge benefits to sit at home (in their free council houses) smoking and drinking, they should be put to work picking fruit and state creches should be supplied to look after all their kids.

If we don't have enough unskilled labour to pick fruit (and all the other things that liberal bigots think only immigrants can do) then we can put our petty criminals to work under Community Service. Instead of going to jail they can pick the fruit for the rest of us for nothing. It's not rocket science.
56

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 11:54:40
#54

How about putting every football fan in an internment camp every time there is a football riot? Or maybe every car driver to stop driving deaths? You are embarassing.
57

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 11:58:31
#53

"the Brits in Spain take money which is a damn site more than the majority of the immigrants who come here but don't let facts get in the way."

So where exactly are your facts that 'Brits in Spain take money' or the majority of immigrants who come here don't? If you have facts to support these views please supply them, otherwise stop criticising other people for lack of facts.
58

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 12:02:06
#56

Do you think every EU country should also adopt a similar points-based system? In which case no British people would be able to retire to Spain.

Or maybe you think the British should have a right to go where they please but people shouldn't be able to emigrate to Britain?

Maybe all the retired British people that would normally emigrate to Spain could be employed picking fruit?
59

Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 05/06/2008 12:05:07
I have personally spoke to hundreds of Poles over the last 4 years. They are very like the Scots.

They have a large neighbour who historically invaded them and plundered their lands. They like a good drink. They work hard. They have been economically disadvantaged for a long time so they know about struggle. They are quiet religious. Obsessed about football.

I have found most to well qualified and here on a short term plan to gain experience of English language and save money to continue their studies.

I am sure there are many people who feel the polish show them up with their work ethic and attitude.

I have also met many Polish people who were tubes but none more than I would expect to find amoungst the Scottish population. Many of Polands spongers are actually still in poland.

Yes they claim for any benefits they can because everyone loves free money. It is our fault for having such a stupid policy that allows the UK tax payer to pay for Children outside the UK
60

Jock MacTamson 2,

highlands 05/06/2008 12:06:21
With reference to the BBC.

They and their Political Correct mafia make me sick. I imagine they do consider white christian europeans fair game for critism. But do not attempt to discuss Africa or the Middle East with any sort of factual basis.

I wish the would get back to making decent TV programs not promoting their New Labour agenda.
61

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 12:07:39
Actually not all British retired people who go to Spain find it a bed of roses. They can find they are completely un-entitled to free healthcare despite living there for years. Worse still for them, they then find that if they come back to the UK they have lost their rights to it here as well. I know: it's just happened to some friends of mine.

I note that you didn't offer any arguments against my proposal to employ our unskilled unemployed labour or petty criminals.
62

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 12:08:41
Woops, #62 was in reply to #59
63

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 12:13:54
#62

"Actually not all British retired people who go to Spain find it a bed of roses."

I never suggested British people who retire to Spain find it a 'bed of roses', I asked whether you thought Spain and other EU countries should also implement a points-based system, or whether you think the British should be free to go where they please but other nationalities shouldn't? (neither question which you answered).

Regarding using the unemployed and petty criminals to pick fruit etc I didn't offer any arguments to that because I think that would be a good idea.



64

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 12:19:25
To those of you who complain that the Poles and other EU immigrants come to this country and then just claim benefits and don't work etc - perhaps you should get your facts right about EU freedom of movement law before you speak.

Any EU citizens coming to the UK will only have right of residence if:

1. They are working in the United Kingdom

2. Or they are able to support themselves and their families in the United Kingdom without the help of public funds.

Personally I would much rather have Poles in this country who actually work and contribute taxes than those British people who are unemployed and live off benefits and who have no intention of getting a job.
65

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 12:24:39
#64 to continue the spirit of detente that seems to have broken out (!) I will try to answer your questions:

Yes, all EU countries should institute a points based system for both EU and non EU citizens.

British people and all other people of the world should be free to go where they please on strictly enforced tourist visas. Anyone who wants to stay anywhere but their place of birth should face a points based system within the country they wish to live in.

Cop outs like marriage and family reasons should not make any difference. You either have the points or you don't get in.
66

Defiant,

Salford/England 05/06/2008 12:28:07
Tellen1 #53, Perhaps you should go their yourself and see like I do every year. The problem with you liberal/lefties is that your all talk and no action and this comments page proves it in regards to you!

The truth hurts you which is why you just try and ignore it
67

Defiant,

Salford/England 05/06/2008 12:30:14
"Tellen1,05/06/2008 12:19:25

Any EU citizens coming to the UK will only have right of residence"

Who gave them the right Mr Liberal/left ?. I remember the UK getting a say on a Common Market but not the EU we have today so where was the governments manifesto to give our borders and laws away (plus £57 BILLION ayear)
68

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 12:40:15
#66

So your points system would allow British people to go on holiday to Spain but not to retire there?

#67

You say I'm all talk and no action but when I ask you for facts to back up your own argument you base it on your own personal views from going on holiday to Spain?...laughable.

Perhaps you don't understand. The 'truth' is not whatever you say or believe, you need to provide solid evidence to back up what you say, you can't just label something the 'truth' because that is what you believe.
69

Winters,

Glasgow 05/06/2008 12:40:55
Well said 30/31. It was the Polish division that took Monte Casino in Italy and the Polish Squadron distinguished itself in the Battle of Britain. Why do we so often get people who didn't live through WW2 commenting on it erroneously. They should realise that there are many people alive now who lived through it.
70

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 12:43:42
#69 If some British retired people have enough money and assets to prove to a Spanish government that they can support themselves in everyway until death then I am sure that can be written into a points system without much problem. Otherwise they must meet the points system.
71

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 12:45:11
#68

I'm not sure what your point is? Obviously the UK government joined the EU and agreed to EU freedom of movement laws.

The vast majority of the UK are clearly happy with being in the EU and with having freedom of movement, otherwise UKIP or the BNP (which one do you support by the way?) would have won an election or would have even a slight chance of winning a seat (neither of which they have done or have any chance of doing).
72

Defiant,

Salford/England 05/06/2008 12:45:30
Tellen1, I never expected a liberal/lefty to admit the truth and bring a points system into something I hadn't even mentioned. You guys need help and the sooner your £3,5 BILLION state broadcaster is shut down the better. I'm sure you'll get a few hundred subscribing to a liberal and proud channel lol

One of these days the British public are going to get a say in Europe and then your going to get shot down the swanny
73

Defiant,

Salford/England 05/06/2008 12:48:24
NO Tellen1 the British government signed up to a Common Market after giving the public a say but not the EU we have today. Please start giving facts intead of your liberal bias.

Say if you love the EU so much why don't you go and live in Germany or France ?
74

Findlay Thompson,

05/06/2008 12:49:48
#45

Poster you have such a blinkered viewpoint of the real world. A collective society does not single out Islamic Terrorists who reside in their country; they tend to view them as part of the whole. Since time was first recorded, small factions of larger groups who committed barbaric acts tended generally to ‘tar’ the larger group with the result of their doings. Nothing has changed!

Please attempt to get a grip on reality poster!!
75

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 12:51:20
#71

So would you also allow retired people from other countries to live in Britain, as long as they can prove they have assets to support themselves?

Why not also allow working people of all skill levels from the EU to live in Britain as long as they get a job (thereby contributing taxes), or have assets to support themselves and don't need to live off the state? (oh wait...that already happens).

What is your opposition to EU workers coming to the UK? They don't claim benefits or live off the state, they don't take jobs from British people, they contribute to the econony.
76

Defiant,

Salford/England 05/06/2008 12:54:10
#71 if they got a big fat zero from the UK government I doubt any retired people would want to come to the UK.

Ps EU workers do claim benefits so you have been proven to be a liar here a few times now. You must be proud of being a liberl/lefty
77

Defiant,

Salford/England 05/06/2008 12:56:29
#71 Government figures suggested Poles contributed £5 to the economy yet didn't mention the £5 billion that was sent back to Poland which the government has to buy back (currency)
78

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 13:00:15
#74

Are you one of those posters who goes on these things for a joke, because you are obviously not being serious?

If you read my post you will quite clearly see that I never said the UK government gave the population a say in the EU we have today, I merely stated that it was the UK government who joined the EU and that the UK population are generally in favour of this otherwise they would have voted UKIP or BNP.

As for 'please start giving facts instead of your liberal bias' you are surely being ironic? I have been asking you to provide facts for your nonsensical arguments over my last few posts, none of which you have provided, why do I need to give facts if you don't? Surely double standards at play.

And finally 'if you love the EU so much why don't you go and live in Germany or France' - why would I need to go to live in Germany or France if I love the EU? The UK is part of the EU....
79

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 13:01:26
#76 To make this easy to visualise let us hypothetically break it down to a single job. Just one job is available in the UK.

Now do we, a) make it solely available to an unemployed UK citizen or

b) throw it open to any old Tom, Dick or Harry from abroad who wants to take it (as so many of them admit) just to send the money they make overseas.

Discuss.
80

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 13:03:29
#75

What does your response have to do with my original questions?

I asked whether you think 1.5m British muslims should be put in internment camps and whether you think all Irish catholics in the UK should have been put in internment camps during the IRA bombing campain. Why don't you answer that?
81

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 13:07:06
#77

"if they got a big fat zero from the UK government I doubt any retired people would want to come to the UK."

There you go again, arguing something without any facts to back it up...such double standards.

"EU workers do claim benefits so you have been proven to be a liar here a few times now"

Perhaps you should get an idea of the EU freedom of movement laws before you start accusing people of being liars. If you go to the UK Border Agencies website you will find that EU workers can only claim residency if they either work or have assets to support themselves, they cannot claim public funds...I await an apology for you calling me a liar.
82

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 13:11:42
#80

In an ideal world the unemployed British person would be given the job, unfortunately the majority of them would prefer to live off benefits than do a menial job that the Poles are willing to do.

Regarding your point about them taking jobs just to send the money they make overseas, they pay tax, surely they are free to do what they want with the rest of their money? Or would you prefer a system where people can only spend money on what they are told, and cannot spend it on anything outside the UK (so no foreign hols, buying things from foreign companies etc).

Finally you are yet to say whether retired people from outside the UK would be able to live here under your points system as long as they have assets to support themselves?
83

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 05/06/2008 13:12:30
So MANY comments. This is a VERY vexed subject in Scotland and the rest of the UK.

The Poles have brought to Scotland and elsewhere in the UK skilled and reasonably-priced labour and do the jobs that other and lazy Scots consider beneath their"dignity".

Perhaps if these critics of the Poles got off their fat ar*es and actually worked for a living rather than being drugged and drunk all day and waking up at noon they would have a sense of self-worth and bring the cost of maintaining them and their children on social assistance.

Every Pole I have met has been gracious, extremely hardworking and willing to get ahead, and many have been extremely and highly educated and the others have an innate intelligence that is sometimes lacking in some Scots.

Scotland should bless the day the Poles decided to emigrate to your country because they have been a positive benefit to all.
84

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 13:15:57
#82 If correct then your assertion that EU workers can only claim residency if they "either work or have assets to support themselves, they cannot claim public funds" would sadly seem to put them at a disadvantage to any Tom, Dick or Harry from outside the EU who can just pitch up, claim political asylum and then get the "full English/Scottish Breakfast" so-to-speak. Free council house, plenty of benefits etc etc.

Perhaps the EU immigrants here should revolt at their second rate treatment.
85

Defiant,

Salford/England 05/06/2008 13:16:09
#79 if the uk public are in favour of being part of the EU then the public opinion polls which have been extremely accurate in the past are a complete farce. Now you know the public aren’t for the EU but it wouldn’t be in your liberal/left favour to be honest here would it!

Again the public never gave the government the nod to drag us into the EU so we aren’t a legitimate part of the EU although yes we are part of Europe (the two being very different)
86

Defiant,

Salford/England 05/06/2008 13:18:52
Tellen1 has no intention in talking reasonably here because he knows what people really think about his opinions (yes that’s all they really are) so he just does the job of his pay masters at Common Purpose

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3664960863576873594&q=common+purpose&ei=RtpHSO36E4aIjQLikty-DA&hl=eN

Yes past dictators have nothing on these people
87

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 13:20:22
#83 In answer to your last paragraph. Yes.
88

Findlay Thompson,

05/06/2008 13:22:19
#81

Attempt to look a bit further than the end of your nose. Can't you see my point?
89

Findlay Thompson,

05/06/2008 13:24:28
#84

Timothy, when was your last visit to Canada?
90

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 13:35:27
#89

Attempt to answer my question.