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Party love-in has air of uncertainty



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Published Date:
08 November 2007
NORMALLY there is little love lost between Labour, the Liberal Democrats and the Tories. But faced with Scotland's first SNP Government, the three parties are eager to make the most of the one issue that unites them - opposition to independence.
Senior figures from each of the parties came together in Edinburgh this week to agree on setting up a review process to "strengthen devolution". Their hope is that they will be able to reach some kind of consensus on Scotland's future which offers an
alternative to the SNP's aim of an independent nation.

The parties have had several meetings over the past few months, but Monday's gathering seemed to give new weight to the project, with the attendance of Scottish Secretary Des Browne.

Lib Dem and Tory Westminster representatives were there too, and a joint statement said the next stage would be to confirm the endorsement of all the parties at a UK level. Any agreed scheme to "improve" devolution would have to include more powers for the Scottish Parliament - and that would almost certainly have to mean some degree of increased control over taxation.

The parties admit it will take time to reach an agreed position and that it's far too early to guess what shape any consensus might take. But is there really enough common ground between these parties to expect any kind of agreement on Scotland's constitutional future?

There have always been voices in the Tory Party calling for stronger tax powers for the parliament in order to make the Scottish Government more accountable, but it has never been party policy.

The official Tory line is that the party is willing to look at the options, but sources say leader Annabel Goldie is still cautious about the idea of more powers.

Labour was opposed to extra powers before and during the Holyrood election campaign. Since then, new leader Wendy Alexander has made it clear she is ready to back the transfer of some responsibilities from Westminster. But crucially, there is no sign at all that Gordon Brown is willing to accept such a move. Meanwhile, Liberal Democrat leader Nicol Stephen - whose party has long backed increased powers for Holyrood - has gone much further than the other parties and argued for Scotland to get a share of North Sea oil revenues.

A Tory insider says there is probably a narrow majority among the party's MSPs in favour of more financial powers although grassroots members would remain to be convinced. Lib Dems have taken heart from an article by the Scottish Tories' deputy leader Murdo Fraser, talking about federalism.

A Labour MSP insists the party is serious about reviewing the constitutional settlement, and argues Des Browne would not have been part of the talks without Gordon Brown's approval. "You can't say what's going to come out of it, but people are seriously looking at appropriate devolved powers within the UK," the MSP said.

Extra tax powers could take various forms - from Scotland assuming responsibility for all taxes north of the Border and paying an agreed amount to Westminster for joint services such as defence and social security, to certain revenues being assigned to the Scottish Government.

Other areas seen as ripe for being devolved include broadcasting and control of the Holyrood elections.

The joint statement issued after Monday's meeting was vague about what form the "review process" would take. But insiders say options include establishing a Holyrood equivalent of a Speaker's Conference, where politicians work together on a non-partisan basis; setting up a special committee of the parliament, or creating what might be seen as a Scottish Constitutional Convention Mark II, involving not just political parties but also local government, civic Scotland, business, the unions and other groups.

This last option was the model which saw a sustained cross-party effort draw up a blueprint for devolution that became the basis for the creation of the Scottish Parliament. But that convention was born in very different circumstances, out of a deep frustration at years of Thatcherite policies being implemented in Scotland, despite the Tories' repeated rejection at the ballot box north of the Border.

The latest cross-party project can be painted by the SNP as a panic reaction to the new government by parties who have little in common. The Nationalists try to patronise the other parties by saying any contribution to their "National Conversation" is welcome.

The SNP's victory was more about people wanting a change of government than a surge of support for independence. A recent survey found support for a go-it-alone Scotland at its lowest for a decade.

Although opinion polls repeatedly show a majority in favour of "more powers" there is little evidence of people clamouring for such a move.

It may be the Labour-Lib Dem-Tory talks will produce a convincing scheme for more powers at Holyrood which captures the imagination of the nation.

But there is also the danger that if the parties cannot find a consensus, the exercise will serve merely to emphasise how divided they are and hand the advantage to the SNP.



The full article contains 854 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 08 November 2007 9:47 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Ian Swanson
 
1

Dorian,

08/11/2007 12:25:21

"Scotland to get a share of North Sea oil revenues." Scotland should get all of the North Sea Oil Revenues

2

Talorthane,

08/11/2007 12:58:15

"The Nationalists try to patronise the other parties by saying any contribution to their "National Conversation" is welcome."

This isn't very objective stuff, Mr Swanson.

It sounds as if it could have come from a Labour or Lib Dem foot soldier.

3

karin m,

08/11/2007 13:31:13

I want independence but if we in scotland cant have that at the moment then i will happily settle for more powers. These of course are the more powers that all the other parties said we didnt need before the election. More devolution is a good thing i think. I think it allows government to be more responsive to the needs of the scottish people. So the sooner the better i say. However i actually dont see it getting that far as the coaltion of unionists will probably kick it into the long grass until the next election or at least until 2010.

4

Reekin' Lum,

08/11/2007 13:41:52

What a pathetic bunch these so-called London led parties. The though of being separated from Mother England has them sweating with fear. No matter that the Marshall Island, Jamaica, Trinidad and Tobago to name a few are totally independent- the though of being set loose to fend for themselves has them wetting their beds. God how the English must laugh at all this.

It's a sad indication of how far this country has plummeted to a state of total subservience by so many to Mother E.

AS has one heck of a job on his hands if is to change the hearts and minds of these whiners.

5

Merouane,

Edinburgh 08/11/2007 13:57:14

#3. Indeed. And he finished up with more of the same, talking about the 'danger' should the unionist parties fail to agree. Danger to whom exactly?

He also picks up on the one poll that shows support for independence at a low level, choosing not to mention the two more recent polls that should a bounce back up to previous levels.

I think Swanson is one of the better journalists at the News, but he doesn't seem able to look at the independence issue impartially.

6

Grandson of Winged Messenger,

08/11/2007 13:58:19

The unionist parties are putting themselves in a further position of weakness by seeking to "strengthen devolution" between them.

Stronger devolution would simply act as a further step towards full independence. We would, and most likely will, reach a point where maintaining the hindrances of devolution become a pointless exercise which necessitate the need for dispensing with them.

In the meantime, the people of Scotland want more powers for devolution which the unionist parties have to respond to in order to survive.

By responding to them, then, they merely facilitate the movement towards full independence which will come as a consequence of stronger devolution.

The only long-term solution for the unionist parties and their supporters is to abandon unionism. Such is the contradictory nature of the position they have found themselves in.

7

Peter,

The fly on Bendy Wendy's wall 08/11/2007 14:19:01

OK, for me the one survey Swanson and his ilk constantly fail to acknowledge is the one they use as an anti independence statement. In the survey people were asked to pick one from three: Independence, more fiscal powers or status quo.

The results were: Independence 23%, more fiscal powers 55% and status quo 22%. Not actually a ringing endorsement for the Unionists or Swanson's position as 78% of the sample wanted change.

The problems for the unionists are:

1. What is the tipping point when the 55% start shifting towards independence as the logical way to create change the current relationship under the Union Treaty?
2. Will a Federated UK be enough to satisfy this group?
3. Will Westminster be willing to risk creating a Federated UK in an attempt to 'stop' the SNP?
4. How will this current cabals actions to stop the SNP effect their support amongst the floating Scottish voters?

The reality is, what ever happens, Wee Eck is still sitting in a win/win situation.

8

Allan (Glasgow),

08/11/2007 14:33:49

Peter (8)

Spot on. I support independence but would be quite happy with more powers for the Parliament now. The result would be de facto independence which would then be accepted as the norm; the final steps to full independence would no longer be the leap in the dark that perhaps they were perceived to be previously.

You are right - either way Salmond wins.

9

Andrew Allan,

08/11/2007 14:33:58

'Senior figures from each of the parties came together in Edinburgh this week to agree on setting up a review process to "strengthen devolution". Their hope is that they will be able to reach some kind of consensus on Scotland's future which offers an alternative to the SNP's aim of an independent nation.'

I had to laugh at this statement, as what else would three unionist parties do but oppose independence.
What will this mean for future elections, but to squeeze out at least one of the three parties represented, in the same way as the even smaller parties were squeezed out in the May elections.
This will not be a alternative in the end but an attempt to create a two party Scottish Parliament by creating a system which will bring forward a programme of tactical voting.

10

Andrew Allan,

08/11/2007 14:36:52

#9.Allan(Glasgow).
The problem with the SNP doing so well, is that people might like the feeling they are experiencing right now, and so be frightened off from full independence, we are in a bit of a catch 22 situation here.

11

The Master,

08/11/2007 14:40:19

The article states:
But there is also the danger that if the parties cannot find a consensus, the exercise will serve merely to emphasise how divided they are and hand the advantage to the SNP.

Sorry, but it’s the SNP who are way out of step with opinion in Scotland when it comes to their independence policy. Since support for independence is at a ten year low despite their best efforts, surely it’s time to ditch the policy! Did I say “it’s time”? Well, it is, but not in the way that this ridiculous SNP rallying cry is meant to imply. A constitutional convention mark II might well be a sensible way forward, as there does seem to be a genuine demand for additional powers to be devolved to the parliament.

At the time of the original constitutional convention, it was the Tories who were so far out of step with public opinion that they were unable to contribute. Well, now it’s the SNP (and they wonder why they were called “Tartan Tories” before they became “the Tartan Taliban” on account of their constitutional sectarianism!) How many others barely suppressed a giggle at the SNP’s suggestion that a second constitutional convention could be seen as a contribution to their ludicrous and completely discredited “national conversation”? I wonder how many have actually heard of this exercise? I know that I myself wouldn’t go near the national conversation website (or whatever it is) for fear of doing something stupid to my computer! The Tartan Taliban need to ditch all this extremist talk of independence and attune themselves to the centre of gravity of public opinion in Scotland if they’re stance is not to look as ridiculous as the Tories’ disastrous anti devolution stance under Thatcher and Major!

12

Andrew Allan,

08/11/2007 14:53:04

#12.the master.
'Sorry, but it’s the SNP who are way out of step with opinion in Scotland when it comes to their independence policy.'

If you think what you say to be true follow the link, and read, and see if you can go against what is said with all honesty:

http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=1413562007&b...

13

The Master,

08/11/2007 14:56:21

8. Peter, The fly on Bendy Wendy's wall / 2:19pm 8 Nov 2007
The problems for the unionists are:
1. What is the tipping point when the 55% start shifting towards independence as the logical way to create change the current relationship under the Union Treaty?

There isn’t one, Peter! How many years of stagnant support of about 23% for independence will it take you nutty nats to twig this?

2. Will a Federated UK be enough to satisfy this group?

Yes, it will. The current amount of devolved powers already seems to satisfy most people. If this weren’t the case, there would surely be far greater support for separatism. The only reason that there is strong support for unspecified extra powers for the parliament is that it’s a “do you want jam” type question.

3. Will Westminster be willing to risk creating a Federated UK in an attempt to 'stop' the SNP?

No, because Westminster are well aware that the SNP’s ridiculous separation policy is enough to “stop” the SNP, even if the electorate fails to see through their other policies.

4. How will this current cabals actions to stop the SNP effect their support amongst the floating Scottish voters?

The actions will have no effect on floating voters. If they’re that wishy washy and undecided, they’re hardly likely to opt for the unchartered rapids of independence!

You are well named: you are indeed a vexatious and swift footed vector of disease and I can just hear your annoying buzzing every time you one of your posts lands on a thread! Now, where can I obtain some cyber fly spray?

14

Sideshow Bob,

08/11/2007 14:59:54

#14 The Master: what a post! I think you've done us all a service here! That cyber fly you just swatted is as irritating to us unionists as kimba is to the nutty nats! I just hope that its small cyber corpse doesn’t continute to pollute the threads for some time to come!

15

Alan B,

08/11/2007 15:00:06

I cannot see how the tory plan to have english mps only voting on english matters can be introduced without some sort of fiscal autonomy.

16

Alan B,

08/11/2007 15:06:06

#14 "The current amount of devolved powers already seems to satisfy most people."

That is not what opinions polls show.

"The only reason that there is strong support for unspecified extra powers for the parliament is that it’s a “do you want jam” type question."

That is really a ridiculous assertion. It is what u want to be true. People can easily decide what they think is best. The fact the both the tories and labour have opposed this position makes it more remarkable that people are actually thinking for themselves.

Personally i cannot understand anyone who believes in devolution can really think that the current settlement is adaquate. It is simply a fudge. One reason many in the labour party supported the SP was to stop the snp not to improve the constitutional arrangements for scotland.

17

The Master,

08/11/2007 15:09:15

13. Andrew Allan / 2:53pm 8 Nov 2007
#12.the master.
'Sorry, but it’s the SNP who are way out of step with opinion in Scotland when it comes to their independence policy.'
If you think what you say to be true follow the link, and read, and see if you can go against what is said with all honesty:
http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=1413562007&b...

I presume that you were referring me to your own post #54 on the link. Well, that is all about the usual “them and us” nationalist mentality which is completely out of step with trend towards the creation of wider entities in the modern world. Forgive me if I’m as slow as Peter (the fly I swatted at post #14 above), but what exactly is your point?

18

The Master,

08/11/2007 15:18:17

Good news! Following my successful fly eradication at post #14 above, I’ve agreed to promote the following:

www.PPCsupplies.co.uk/flies Fly Spray Products For Home Use Fast Delivery- Wipeout Flies Today!

19

Rasputin 2,

08/11/2007 15:23:44

#19 The Master: are you any good with Red Mosquitoes? There again, how about offering your services as a ghostbuster to see off the persistent drivel of “The Spook in Leith”? I know that you’re a master fox and have completely slaughtered “Hen” Broon several times in the past!

20

Reekin' Lum,

08/11/2007 15:27:21

#14 AND #15 see post #5. I rest my case.

21

Raoul Duke,

08/11/2007 15:37:39

The 3 London parties getting into bed with each other can only strengthen the support for the SNP imo.

Sickening stuff, given their supposed opposition to each other in Westminster, and backed up by the usual suspect lab/tory posters on here who can only come out with their usual drivel. Let go guys, its over, and very very boring.

22

The Master,

08/11/2007 15:37:59

More fall out from my post at #14: I’ve just received several pages of representations from an organisation called “the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Insects” who I’m convinced are a front for a bunch of Tories in league with the Tartan Taliban!

#22 AM2: point taken.

23

The Master,

08/11/2007 15:47:34

21. Reekin' Lum / 3:27pm 8 Nov 2007
#14 AND #15 see post #5. I rest my case.
I’ve reread your post and the salient paragraph seems to be:

AS has one heck of a job on his hands if is to change the hearts and minds of these whiners.

You are therefore admitting that AS is on to a loser with his independence agenda. Surely it’s only a matter of time before he quietly gives it up for a bad job then! There’s only so much banging of the head against a brick wall that the human body can withstand. What happened to Plaid Cymru’s independence agenda, by the way? (This has now, I believe, metamorphosed into a form of devolution max, although I’m no authority on Welsh politics, so do correct me if I’m wrong about this!)

24

The Master,

08/11/2007 15:49:31

#25 AM2: I have my style and you have yours! I am of the personal opinion that the SNP are so extreme and foolhardy that they are full deserving of the term "Tartan Taliban".

25

Walter Ego,

Durness 08/11/2007 16:21:35

This is all very well but what about the Council Tax freeze?

26

Walter Ego,

Durness 08/11/2007 16:22:34

I came on to this forum to escape from the Scotsman regulars and lo and behold ...

27

Banana Skin,

08/11/2007 16:37:42

#31 The Dark Side: the only reason for that is that you more often than not post as “The Master” or under God knows how many other monikers! Where have the Winged Messenger and associates got to, by the way? It’s like turning up to the pub and not being able to find a whole clutch of old drinking buddies who are in the habit of drowning their sorrows well into the wee small hours!

28

The Master,

08/11/2007 17:11:37

#38 The Apoclaypse: if there’s a problem with pests such as the spookie numptie, then let me deal with him – if you look at the Ian Swanson “Party Love In” thread, you’ll see that I did a complete hatchet job on Peter the Fly with my post at no 14! It was so bad that he hasn’t buzzed since! Indeed I am thinking of starting a business known as “Master Pest Control”!

http://news.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=1775182007#comme...

29

Andrew Allan,

08/11/2007 17:39:49

#18.The Master / 3:09pm 8 Nov 2007
‘I presume that you were referring me to your own post #54 on the link. Well, that is all about the usual “them and us” nationalist mentality which is completely out of step with trend towards the creation of wider entities in the modern world. Forgive me if I’m as slow as Peter (the fly I swatted at post #14 above), but what exactly is your point?’

Unfortunately I wasn’t here to witness you putting your foot firmly in your illogical mouth, and yes you were slow enough to of made it even more unfortunate still. The link was actually a work of logic that would identify with any people it identifies in that position, and has no ‘them and us’ considerations in it, as it is a general consideration and not a specific one. My point, which should have been obvious, is most people would wish to have control of their own affairs given the right set of circumstances.

30

Andrew Allan,

08/11/2007 17:47:12

#27.The Master / 3:49pm 8 Nov 2007
‘#25 AM2: I have my style and you have yours! I am of the personal opinion that the SNP are so extreme and foolhardy that they are full deserving of the term "Tartan Taliban".’

I expect when you are talking about style you mean the mode in which you write, and not some pretension of writing with finesse, as I should expect we would find it particularly difficult to trawl wide enough to find you a large enough audience. ;-)

31

Andrew Allan,

08/11/2007 17:50:08

#28.AM2, Glasgow / 4:04pm 8 Nov 2007
‘...whereas, try as I might, I can't *quite* imagine summary executions of Labour, Liberal and Tory “traitors” at half-time at Hampden Park. ;-)’


I think AM2, by the very existence of the thought you used to write what you have, you did indeed imagine it for at least an instance. ;-)

32

Andrew Allan,

08/11/2007 17:59:19

#26.The Master / 3:47pm 8 Nov 2007
‘There’s only so much banging of the head against a brick wall that the human body can withstand.’

As someone who has much sympathy for the inflicted, and those who find themselves reading your posts, I must ask you how long it took you before you couldn’t take anymore banging of your head against the wall, before you came onto this site? ;-)

33

Peter,

The fly on Bendy Wendy's wall 08/11/2007 20:26:29

26. Master of baits ... your pal Arrgmaaahtool's post on survey %'s agrees with my original post. There is little support for the status quo.

Us flies know crap when we smell it and you are clearly full of it, as is this Des Browne lead cabal.

78% do not want the Union in its current form, i.e. nearly 3 in every 4 think the Union is dead or dying.
1 in 4 does not represent the 'majority of Scots' as you claim.

My wife will be along shortly to lay another 10,000 eggs to clear up all the crap you routinely deposit.

34

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08/11/2007 21:01:01
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08/11/2007 21:01:23
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44

Graham Simpson,

Vancouver Canada 08/11/2007 21:22:20

It would be a great idea for the anti-independence parties to combine and form a 'Scottish Unionist Party' as an attempt to deny independence to the Scots.

We would have then a very clear, deep but honest political division that will allow we Scots to choose our future path.

On the one hand... an English based and financed political machine with a core philosophy to keep Scotland down, and on the other...a native born, national and financially independent front with as its sole interest..the advancement of the Scottish interests.

Unfortunately, the three principle branch-office parties that currently oppose Scotland's independence are terrified by the the massive defection that would occur, not just from their ranks, but from sitting members.

Roll on the next election!

45

watcher4,

East Lothian 08/11/2007 21:34:11

Less than a quarter of people in scotland want independance, what is the issue. The numpty Nats will be sent homeward after the next election.

46

Ayrshire Scot™,

08/11/2007 21:56:24

53 Maltese Tranny, changed into another of your monikers? If only you changed your women's lace knickers as often. Begone you sad sack. Bring out Janis again.

47

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09/11/2007 01:10:23
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48

donald,

weegieland 09/11/2007 08:02:15

That's what Unionism means: putting Scotland last.

49

Red Mosquito,

East Kilbride 09/11/2007 09:49:17

#20 Rasputin 2

"The Master: are you any good with Red Mosquitoes? "

Not sure what I posted that seems to have offended you so much, maybe you can direct me to the actual topic as this is my first post on this story.

I don't think anyone can doubt that polls show a majority in support for more powers for Holyrood. I also find it hard to imagine the thre Unionist parties and the SNP joining together to debate this issue, though I hope they can.

In that case it seems to be a case of waiting to see what the three Unionist parties come up with and what the SNP come up with. The SNP we know will forward Independence with probably more powers as a secondary option.

The three Unionist parties will have to propose more powers for the Parliament.

Hopefully, both the three Unionist parties and the SNP will publish a list of these powers and detail why they are needed and to what benefit Scotland will gain by having these powers. Once we get to that stage we then get the chance to debate the finer details and maybe then when people are asked by pollsters we will have a better understanding of the question 'status quo ? more powers ? independence ?'.

Instead of the insults flying around people should spend time trying to get all four main parties round the table, a novel idea, i know.

50

Queen D,

Glasgow 09/11/2007 11:07:03

The problem as I see it is that the lib/lab and tory parties are seen to be representing the Westminster branch and not their own electorate.
The more they skulk around together the more suspect they become.


 

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