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'Black cloud' of methadone use that threatens the welfare of children

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Published Date:
24 July 2007
WHEN Sandra is taking methadone she lives her life under a "black cloud". She closes the curtains and cannot muster the energy to take her eight-year-old twins to the park or play with her two-year-old son.
The 37-year-old from Glasgow has now been off the heroin substitute for 25 days thanks to the help of an innovative rehabilitation project in Glasgow.

And the mother-of-three believes coming off methadone and support from the Aberlour Child Care
Trust has helped her become a better parent.

"When you are on it there is a black cloud hanging over you, whereas when you are off it, it starts to lift," she said.

But Sandra is one of the lucky ones.

A report released yesterday revealed almost 7,000 people using methadone have dependants under the age of 16, prompting fears for childrens' welfare.

Meanwhile the number of people using the opiate overall has reached record levels. At more than 21,000 it is 10 per cent higher than previously thought. But a separate study also revealed there are not enough alternative treatments, including help to come off drugs completely, available.

The Aberlour Child Care Trust is the only charity in Scotland to provide rehabilitation to both mothers and children.

The reports on methadone were ordered by the Executive as part of a review following the death of toddler Derek Doran who found the drug in his family home. They were conducted by experts from the Scottish Drugs Forum and NHS Scotland.

An estimated 40-60,000 children in Scotland are affected by drug abuse according to Executive statistics. And yesterday experts and politicians said it was imperative to wean parents off the drug.

Children's charity NCH Scotland said offering a diversity of treatments would help tackle the problem.

"A range of treatment options are needed in Scotland to help get people off drugs, and not just for people convicted of offences," said a spokesman.

And Annabel Goldie, the leader of the Scottish Tories, said the number of families affected by drug addiction was horrifying.

"Methadone has a role to play as one of a range of options. But we need to dramatically expand these options and that includes more rehabilitation. Let's be clear about this. Tackling drugs abuse and putting in place a programme that eradicates, rather than manages, the problem is a long term aspiration. But we cannot wait any longer," she said.

Yesterday all the reports concluded methadone is a good way of stabilising drug users and preventing further harm to society through crime.

More alternatives, such as abstinence programmes or other substitutes such as buprenorphine, are also needed.

A total of £9.08 million was spent on residential detoxification and rehabilitation services in 2005-6.

Drug workers say the recent rise in people taking the opiate is due to more people coming forward for treatment.

But the reports found therapy offered by rehabilitation centres remains more effective.

Just 7 per cent of drug users on a methadone programme are drug free after three years. But around a third of drug users on residential programmes become drug free.

Fergus Ewing, the community safety minister, promised to improve service provision to get people off methadone.

"Methadone must come with genuine rehabilitation to help addicts find a route out of drugs. We need to be more than just a prescription service," he said.

• THE number of rehabilitation places available to drug-addict mothers who want to stay with their children has been slashed by a third, despite Scottish Executive support for the programme.

Former first minister Jack McConnell praised the rehabilitation service offered by Aberlour Childcare Trust, which offers mothers residential treatment with their children.

The charity used to operate one centre in Edinburgh and two in Glasgow, each catering for up to six families at a time. But Brenda House in the capital has been closed in the past few months.

Edinburgh Council said it would be replaced by more community-based projects, but critics said a range of services were needed.

Bruce Thomson, assistant regional director of Aberlour, said yesterday's report highlighting the number of children being brought up in methadone-using households supported the need for services aimed at drug-addicted parents. He said: "Working with families affected by parental substance use is not just about tackling the drug use itself, but also reducing risk for children, promoting positive parenting, and working directly with children's own issues."



The full article contains 755 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 23 July 2007 8:19 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Heroin , Drugs policy
 
1

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 24/07/2007 00:28:38

Methadone is a substitute not a treatment, its like giving an alcoholic booze on prescription and patting them on the back saying "that will cure you".

How about real treatment encouraging abstinence and giving people support to put their lives back in order?

2

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 24/07/2007 00:32:51

Either I'm going senile or just "don't-get-it"
The Health Authority, who are meant to-be big time looking after our children are complaining the methadone they are giving out is affecting the children of the methadone users they prescribed methadone to??
So why prescribe it?
Don't want to say remove the child! But is that what they are saying? after them condoning methadone!

3

zenith,

USA 24/07/2007 01:58:25

I am absolutely appalled and sickened by the insinuations and ignorance in this article. Methadone treatment is IN NO WAY like giving alcohol to an alcoholic! Many long trem opioid users sustain permanent damage to their brain chemistry, resulting in an inability of the brain to produce natural endorphins--the body's natural opiates. Yes, unlike alcohol and many other drugs of abuse, our brains have opiate receptors because we naturally produce opiates (endorphins). These chemicals enable us to feel pleasure and happiness. Without them we suffer from severe depression, anhedonia, anxiety, exhaustion and cravings. No amount of traditional treatment can "cure" this--it is a biophysical condition and cannot be prayed, meditated or group therapied away.

Methadone, properly administered in adequate doses (something very unusual in the UK, sadly), replaces the missing endorphins without making the user "high" or euphoric. Stabilized mmt patients who are not using other drugs are just as able to care for children, drive, work and carry out responsibilities as anyone else--studies bear this out. But they don't make very exciting news stories. Much better to dig around until you find some neglectful parent that leaves a drug out where a child can get at it (which by the way happens every day to all kinds of people with all kinds of drugs and cleaners--not just with methadone patients), or some random woman who says methadone is "a black cloud" and do a story around that! Would anyone here care to hear about the woman who spent 20 years cycling in and out of 13 traditional rehabs, prison, jail, etc and had given up all hope, only to get on MMT and within just a few weeks have a full time, responsible job that I have kept for years now, am supporting my seriously ill husband and 2 children, volunteering my time to help others, am on numerous boards and groups to educate patients and the public, pay all my bills on time, have never misse

4

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 24/07/2007 04:24:41

# 3 that is the point when properly administered and controlled, ........... not supped in the pharmacy and sicked up outside and sold to deliquents ........ your story is wonderful yet atypical.

5

Citylocal Fife,

Citylocal Fife News Room 24/07/2007 06:49:25

# 3

I'm sorry to hear of your plight, and happy to hear that you are now OK, but I'm not sure that you are a typical example of a methadone user.

May I ask - with all the help and counselling available - why did it take 20 years to get the correct treatment?

6

eric,

24/07/2007 06:51:15

My younger brother has been on methadon for 9yrs ,he says its more addictive than heroin and more difficult to come off,he says the help is not there,And hes tried to come off it and failed.he dumped a baby on my 63yr old mum who died 18mth ago,She done a brilliant job bringing the kid up with help from myself and small bits of help from my brother,he has the kid and he has been doing a great job since mums gone,And he got her into a great school to start this august.I cant fault him.Hes not looking for sympathy because he doesnt get it from me ,he just need that supoport to come off mathadon.

7

Black Five,

edinburgh 24/07/2007 06:57:28

We pussyfoot about with this bunch who are a scourge on our society.The children grow up in this terrible enviorment.I`d have capitol punishment for the dealers and cold turkey for the users.Let`s sort this now.

8

IanW,

Germany 24/07/2007 07:03:27

Giving drugs to a junkie is plain wrong. The use of illegal drugs is a crime and the state should not replace one criminal act with an immoral one.

Cold turkey all the way!!!

9

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 24/07/2007 07:24:30

Methadone should be scrapped.

10

eric,

24/07/2007 07:33:44

My brother says the only way is cold turkey ,If he gets the help to guide him throught it,

11

KTCB41,

24/07/2007 07:43:18

Methadone is provided on the NHS because lots of medical professionals think it helps in some way.

The real problem is that the NHS is particularly incompetant at explaing to the public the benefits of the treatment.

Lots of people work in the NHS/Voluntary Sector/Poverty industry and get their pay on the back of drug addiction. If they want to keep their jobs they should consider improving the Public Relations of their effectivness and the money we spend on their industry.

12

Tinkerbelle,

Edin 24/07/2007 08:17:17

#3 I am really glad you fought your corner here, we just need more people like you with the determination to help themselves and then go on to help others.

It's not that 'junkies' want to be trapped in this world but sometimes it's easier just to stay put no? Some have come so far down they really do not have the strength to come off even with support.
However there most deffinately is not enough support out there. My heart goes out to all the little ones but the people who are trapped in this horrible downwards spiral also.

13

eric,

24/07/2007 08:32:57

One doent know who lives next door!

14

Jimbo Lochend,

Edinburgh 24/07/2007 08:36:35

The whole "Drugs Problem" must be looked at .
Like the alcohol problem it will not go away and must be looked at in an adult manner with no hysterics,myths or irrational comments.Drugs are here to stay and our reaction must be sensible, logical and effective.We have created in our Society two Empires - 1.Drug Barons,Users etc and 2.The different Law Enforcement Agencies, both are generating Big Money and Employing thousands.
We are losing the battle not winning it.

15

'Hezza,

24/07/2007 08:59:28

I read elsewhere that there are around 51,000 people addicted to heroin in Scotland. I don't know if the above figure of 20,000 methadone users are included in that, or over and above, but, think of it this way:

Scotland's population = c.5,000,000.

51,000 therefore represents c.1% of the Scottish population being addicted to heroin!!!!

To me, that figure is enormous - why are we not jumping up and down, puring money in to stop/alleviate this??? I think how many people I must've walked past this morning whilst walking the dog. 100s of folk off to work...statistically (though probably not actually), I must've seen dozens of heroin addicts.

More than ever, i'm convinced that we should be making these people the centre of our drugs policy, and i'm sure the knock-on effects of less crime and more cohesive society will follow.

16

Petroleum Head,

Edinburgh 24/07/2007 09:06:01

"WHEN Sandra is taking methadone she lives her life under a "black cloud". She closes the curtains and cannot muster the energy to take her eight-year-old twins to the park or play with her two-year-old son"

So are we supposed to be sorry for her then? The idiot took heroine in the first place did she not? She made the choice to ruin her life. She also appears not to have the strength to simply stop taking the stuff ans has to rely on a crutch in th eform of methodone. I have absolutely no sympathy for her at all.

The kids on the other other hand, I do have a great deal of sympathy for. They are missing out on a part of their lives that should be great fun. This is purely because of their mother's stupidity and selfishness. Let's just hope that they don't end up going down the same path.

17

eric,

Lothian 24/07/2007 09:16:55

My brother is in the same situation ,And he would agree with you as myself.His kid has a happy life and loves school and he puts her 1st at all times .he hasnt done crime in 9yrs since hes been on methadon,But he does need some help to take him to the next level,he doesnt get any sympathy from me ,It is totaly their own fault,

18

mjhaynes,

nc 24/07/2007 09:19:42

We are the families of victims and those yet to be victims of methadone. We have come together with other families throughout the United States who have lost loved ones to methadone. We would like to prevent any other family from the devastation we have experienced when our loved ones went to a doctor they trusted to relieve pain, went to a methadone clinic for help with an addiction, was given a "pain pill" from a trusted friend or just experimented with drugs.

We are asking government agencies to enact stricter guidelines in prescribing methadone for any reason. It must be mandatory that all doctors be certified and trained in the pharmacology of methadone; inpatient stays must be required during induction to methadone; all staff be extensively trained in monitoring methadone patients for symptoms of toxicity. Clinic patients should be tested for legal and illegal drugs that are taken with methadone to get “ high” or experience “euphoria” such as benzodiazepines, alcohol, cocaine, heroin etc… and face severe consequences / mandatory detoxification from methadone program when presenting inebriated at clinic, clinic should also document such activity as well as prevent client from driving. Take home doses for all patients receiving methadone should be eliminated thus preventing the risk of diversion or precautions such as pill safe should be implemented. http://www.thepillsafe.com/

Current statistics show that nearly 4000 people a year die from methadone. These deaths are mostly happening to pain management and detoxification patients within the first 10 days of taking initial dose. Most of these deaths are related to methadone prescribed with other medications that react as additives with methadone. Diversion of methadone is a serious problem because it lands this most deadly drug on streets. Statistics also state that methadone is contributing to more deaths nationwide then her

19

eric,

Lothian 24/07/2007 09:22:30

20 Well done .

20

rebdan,

Highlands 24/07/2007 09:29:26

What about all the g/parents - relatives who are left to take care of the children belonging to drug users who do not get any help either financially or emotionally from the local authorities or government - which still leaves the children in the poverty trap and the relatives struggling to bring the children up - no mention of this in the report.

21

GP,

24/07/2007 09:37:26

Cold turkey and no social benefits.
Sterlise them all.

22

Carel,

Isle of Skye 24/07/2007 09:39:21

Heroin itself is more effective than methadone at doing the good that methadone is meant to do.

Dragonhead, posting from China, says his wife recommends the state providing heroin, and that he is still laughing. But his wife is right, and we have over 50 years experience in Scotland that proves it. Till '71 that was the policy here, heroin addiction was treated with heroin and this led to almost univerasl survival with most addicts coming off when they were ready.

Those addicts who didn't ever come off were those who simply coudn't - they had either been born unable to produce the neurotransmitters that keep misery at bay, or overuse of heroin had destroyed them, or a combination of the two.

And there was no incentive for addicts to commit crimes to get money to give to gangsters. As a result there were no addicts willing to deal in heroin. There was therefore no illegal heroin to speak of - in the whole of the UK there were only five thousand addicts - Scotland alone has ten times that amount now. Your wife, Dragonhead, is the one with sense.

23

Just Gordon,

24/07/2007 09:40:53

What about the old people who have been mugged by some of these junkies to get their fix? Are they going to get anything out of it?

What's wrong with this country?

We're giving out methadone for free, and yet asthmatics, diabetics etc are all paying for their treatment. Junkies are the most manipulative pieces of scum, and I'll never forget my sister and her 4 year old sons angst, when two junkies had broken into her house on December 23rd and stolen all the Xmas presents.

Luckily one of them died of an overdose three weeks later. Sorry, but I have no tolerance for these people.

24

old soldier,

Black Isle 24/07/2007 09:47:00

They all took the drugs in the first place either let them get on with it or supply them with a bullet to end it. There is no answer so stop nannying them about it is them that have wasted thier life's and now cost the health service a fourtune which in the end is just throwing good money after bad. Then we can start with the dealers take back the death penalty for them and we would soon reduce this problem

25

Miss H,

24/07/2007 10:14:43

It is 1% if the population either on heroin or methadone.

Which is bad but not as bad as the number of people who are problem drinkers which also has a dreadful effect on children.

The people advocating capital punishment etc for people who are substance abusers are just plain stupid.

You are advocating murdering literally hundreds of thousands of people. Do you realise that, you plonkers?

26

conservative,

24/07/2007 10:15:42

#26 Old Soldier
what a nasty, cruel, uncaring sod you are. I couldn't agree more. No time for any of these wastrels who do nothing for themselves but guzzle the money that could be spent on better deserving cases. Well Done!!

27

Miss H,

24/07/2007 10:16:25

24

Yes quite right but we will need to wait a few decades yet I fear before it happens.

28

conservative,

24/07/2007 10:17:11

#28 - Miss H

If you read again you'll see that it is the dealers who are being referred to. But why let accuracy get in the way of a good PC campaign eh?

29

Miss H,

24/07/2007 10:19:03

26]

You want to take a look at how many old soldiers have addiction problems old chap.

Way, way higher than the civilian population.

Ex-services also have much higher suicide rates, so clearly many of them do bite the bullet so to speak.

30

Miss H,

24/07/2007 10:21:31

31

So would you string up every licensee who sells alcohol to alcoholics?

How many would that be so you think?

You could do a Spartacus style line of crucifixions across the whole country I would reckon.

31

Terrorist or Freedom Fighter?,

Scotland 24/07/2007 10:27:52

For all of you advising that 'cold turkey' is the way to go - have any of you ever been through it? Do you all think it's just like a bad flu? Because it's not!

People who come off cig's get help, people who come off alcohol get help. but screw anyone on heroin!

32

yolanda,

24/07/2007 10:28:49

The amount of methadone scripts given could be greatly reduced if the expertise and resources were put into providing it as one of several options in drug treatment instead of the only widely available one. Some users benefit from methadone and in such cases it is a useful treatment, providing stability into otherwise chaotic lives, however substitiute prescribing is NOT the only answer. It is overused because it is the easy and cheap option for service providers.

33

freehaggisallyear,

Dunbar 24/07/2007 10:53:38

Dragonhead

I love the way your mind works! Think I will sleep tonight and dream of my new alter ego!
Would be a good plan but goverment would use the tax for pension funds, theirs!

34

lp,

24/07/2007 11:29:50

in a way prescribing heroin and or methodone does save money. heroin addicts have tunnel vision and want to get their next fix no matter what. if they don't get methodone and can't afford heroin they will steal to feed their habit, which results in courts being full, the cost of prosecution, the costs of defence (usually if not always legally aided) and then the cost of running prisons. the costs mount up.

the drug problem will not go away by saying "go cold turkey". these people need help. i say that not because i believe the drug users deserve help but the benefit to society as a whole means that it is worth it to tackle the drug problem.

35

Alf K.,

24/07/2007 13:02:31

Some seem to think the best way to get rid of addicts is by not spending money on them. OK lets do the same to all who use up NHS cash with cancer brought on by smoking, liver damage by drinking, injury caused by careless driving, health damage caused by over eating, sports injuries etc etc.
Back to reality methadone would seem to be a great halfway house but it seems that when patients are put on methadone that is the end. What is needed is a proper planned withdrawal program with counselling so that in a pre-determined amount of time the addict will be a clean and hopefully useful member of society. The timescale may be 2 or 3 years but surely the long term savings will be worth it

36

Sedov,

Scotland 24/07/2007 13:17:46

Whatever the reasons for becoming an addict its not easy coming off drugs. those who think its all down to will power, like giving up smoking do not know what they are talking about. Methodone is another wee sticking plaster to ease our minds that we are doing something to help. Punishing addicts is like giving fish a bath - totally useless and counterproductive. Drugs ruin lives and cause heartache and despair among famillies and loved ones. Drugs, like vanadalism, alchohol abuse and programmes like big Brother! are all symptoms of a system in decay and terminal decline and its time to change the system. Wake up everyone capitalism is not working for the majority of the world's population and like the climate things are gonna get worse unless we act.

37

Stickman,

24/07/2007 13:36:02

Methadone, as others have said, is just one option when it comes to treating heroin users. The problem though is that, while it should be used as a means to stablilise the user prior to helping them to achieve abstinence, health workers find it easier to stick them on a script on a maintenace basis, without ever providing the other options which could help the user towards becoming drug free. This makes it more manageable for the health service, not to mention a huge earner for the drug companies supplying methadone. I'm quite convinced that someone somewhere is getting a big fat bung from the drug companies to keep addicts ON methadone for years rather than using it as a short term measure.

38

GP,

24/07/2007 13:42:09

35# try some cold turkey on these postings and give us all a break.
Too soft on petty criminals who can think up a million reasons for not doing anything possitive for themselves.
giz a brek

39

mixi,

24/07/2007 14:52:54

cold turkey, cranberry and brie is lovely - i've never understood why they are such fussy eaters.

40

melissa,

24/07/2007 15:02:03

Methadone is now the #2 Killer Drug in the U.S. This is a legal drug that has been thought to be safe for the past 40 years. Only recently when its use became approved for pain management patients has the cardio toxic risks emerged. Previously methadone has been used exclusively for replacement therapy for heroin patients and death was thought to be an effect of the accumulation of many years of drug abuse. With the surge in pain medication misuse and abuse more patients are being referred to methadone clinics and physicians treating pain who believe the myth that methadone is safer or non addictive because of it’s use with weaning addicts from heroin. Methadone is more addictive then any other pain medication including heroin and because of it’s extremely long half life, cardio toxic risks, numerous fatal drug interactions, dosages based on tolerance, and small margin of error. Up until Nov 2006 the government and pharmaceutical companies have been suppressing the numerous health and fatality risks related to methadone.

there are between 800,000 & 900,000 (some stats give diff numbers) heroin addicts in the U.S and 1,881 people died from heroin in the U.S. in 2004.

there are 200,000 people on methadone for drug treatment and I don't have the number of people on it for pain but even if we double the 200,000 and assume it's 400,000 total people on methadone there were 3,849 deaths in 2004

It looks like the "gold standard" is killing more then the drug its supposed to save people from!!!!

Every day 10.9 people die from Methadone (according to 2004 stats)


The whole methadone maintenance system needs an overhauling. We cannot continue to allow a legal medication to be killing more people then the illegal drugs. Our government cannot be allowed to use tax dollars to fund their legal drug dealing operations.

Current statistics show that nearly 4000 people a year die from meth

41

Listen Ear,

24/07/2007 15:34:14

Drugs use is exploding due to drug users becomeing dealers to feed their habits.. This then creates more dealers and more users... a vicious circle.

We need to Build HUGE Prisons and lock up all pushers..

1st Offence 5 Years
2nd Offence 10 Years
3rd Offence 25 Years

In possession of large quantities.. immediatel life in prison for drug dealing and attempted murder.

If a person dies due to drugs, the dealer should go down for murder.


For Users..
even in Posession
1st Offence 1 Month Rehab
2nd Offence 3 Month Rehab
3rd Offence 3 Years Nick
4th Offence 5 Years Prison

Generous reductions in prison sentences would be given to people that grass and testify aginast the person that supplied them.

My younger brother couldn't beat it, so he OD'd to be free of his drug habit.

42

Midnight Caller,

Wester Hailes 24/07/2007 16:03:50

As you can imagine living in a place like WH with the above average amount of addicts with not only methadone addiction, but various other drugs and drink problems. Life can look a bit bleak at times. The statistics prove that every family has at least one addict in the family and for some more than several addicts in the family.

For the cretins in society to comment without actually using their brains the way they were meant to use them and come up with ridiculous concepts of what should or should not be done is DENIAL. These people with the attitude of Dickensian measures shouldn't be allowed to comment on anything let alone other peoples misfortunes.

I agree that the initial onus lies on the person who decided to indulge in the filthy habit of drug abuse in the first place, but lets not forget the other filthy habit of drink abuse, which causes more carnage to life and society than any of the self harming substances we encounter daily.

The Government as our spokesperson and whom we elected to make the country a better and safer place to live and in should take more responsibility for its citizens.

Alf K#39 has a valid point, most of the patients who go through the doors of hospitals and clinics do so through some kind of self abuse whether deliberately or not.

Alcohol and Tobacco taxes should be directed towards the NHS and completely forfeited for the NHS. The government are supposed to be a responsible body who can determine the funding to keep our country a socially economic one. But they are not!

They come up with ridiculous by-laws about not smoking or drinking in public places etc.

Put notices about the damage you are doing to yourself on packs of cigarettes and advertisements about the pitfalls of drunken behaviour, then think that they can get away with saying that they are being a responsible body.

THE HYPOCRISY!

43

Carel,

Isle of Skye 24/07/2007 16:25:48

Listen Ear, 45.
So your brother never sold any heroin? If so he was a very unusual heroin addict!! And if other ways of raising the money hadn't occurred to him do you think he would have refused to deal and become one these otherwise non-existant people, people wh's only offence is that they buy illegal heroin?

The stern policies you're talking about have been tried and sterner ones = at one stage Iran had capital punishment for possession of any amount whatsoever. After several years the WHO organisation reckoned opiate consumption had droped by 20 % and the agitation from the families of people running foul of this was reducing the policy to a dead letter. Your recommended strict policies are not working now in the US, in Mexico, etc etc..

It can be looked at very differently. Poppies are plants that have been around since before neolithic times. In the twentieth Century, after thousands of years of only being a small problem, we made it illegal for anyone other than a practicing doctor to supply opiates to anyone. - - - - Who's responsibility then were the people who'd become dependent on self-medication with this drug that had been legal for the whole of human history?

(A)In the US they decided the suddenly illegalised addict were responsible for resising this need by themselves - result - addicts started trading in it and it spread through the population like fildfire. (B)The UK decided that addicts should get garaunteed maintenance prescriptions of heroin - result - addicts keep this stuff to themselves and heroin addiction levels are tiny. (C) The Uk changes to a more US approach now centred on a much less enjoyable alernative that is in itself much worse for you, so that heroin is suddenly only available on the black market - result - heroin addiction levels in the UK go up to US levels and worse.

Duh?

44

FelixNera,

The North East Of Scotland 24/07/2007 16:42:59

18. Petroleum Head

You said

"She also appears not to have the strength to simply stop taking the stuff ans has to rely on a crutch in th eform of methodone"

The Article said

"The 37-year-old from Glasgow has now been off the heroin substitute for 25 days thanks to the help of an innovative rehabilitation project in Glasgow"

45

Richardinho,

24/07/2007 17:24:59

What I've never understood is why it is acceptable for the state to become a dealer in this very dangerous drug- methadone?

How is it doing users any good by replacing one drug with another equally bad?

46

Richardinho,

24/07/2007 17:29:32

Melissa-having read your post, can I make a small point?

The figures you give for greater death rates under methadone than with heroin are under the circumstances of heroin being illegal. Many of the deaths attributed to heroin will most likely be due to other factors, such as overdosing and infected batches, both of which are largely due to the drug being illegal.

It is therefore fair to conclude that on a level playing field, methadone is a far more dangerous drug than heroin.

47

Alec,

24/07/2007 17:30:16

As a pensioner, I'm sick of having my taxes used to support these self-inflicted wasters. I see them every day, cheerfully visiting the local pharmacist, swallowing their "fix" and happily going on their way. Junkies should be locked away and subjected to cold turkey treatment - it's far more effective.

48

Pharmacy perspective,

24/07/2007 17:55:44

I'm a bit shocked that not many who get to see the 'treatment' has really spoken up.

I worked in a retail pharmacy for 6 months until I had enough.... You spend a large portion of your day getting the methadone ready and hours of time trying to make time for the required supervision of methadone. This does not take into account the watching to make sure you don't get robbed blind in the process.

There is nothing that really will make you feel better about your job that watching someone's Gran be scared silly while waiting for her blood pressure pills as she listens to the queue of junkies swapping phone numbers for their dealers!!!

Would anyone be surprised that your local chemist has likely either been assaulted by one of these 'poor sad souls' or have been held up by these folks???

We were also 'lucky' enough to have a needle exchange and worked with the local harm reduction team (for those of you who are so anti-methadone...you should REALLY look into that idea!!!) which aims not to get them off the stuff, but to supply methadone and injecting supplies to make it so they just have to inject less....and to inject more safely. This includes EDUCATION ON HOW TO INJECT!!!!

Methadone is a good drug for it's intended purposes if it's used properly. If someone thinks they need to take enough to keep a 'high'...then yes, there will be side effects. In the lower doses to keep the body from going into withdrawal, it is shown to be safe and works in conjunction with the desire to stop heroin.

If the desire to stop is not really there...nothing will work. Not high dose Methadone. Not throwing more benefits at them. Not even treatment centers can give someone that desire.

Education the youth! Let them know it's a bad thing. Show them the consequences before they have access to someone who wants to 'share'.

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zenith,

USA 24/07/2007 18:06:38

Someone asked why it took 20 years for me to be directed to the right treatment. The answer is because in the USA, methadone treatment is almost never suggested to anyone no matter how badly they may need it. The only option offered is 12 step based rehabs. You might say oh that's wonderful! But consider this--the success rates vary from 10-20% for these paces, with most being on the lower end. In the USA, many addicts are treated just the way so many of you seem to advise--locked up and the key thrown away for even minor posession crimes, and abstinence being the only treatment offered in 97% of treatment facilities. Has this been successful at curbing our drugs problem? Not at all, as anyone can see. The "war On Drugs" is a useless waste of tax dollars that politicians espouse because it makes them look good to a conservative public.

So, tell me--would you rather have "locked me up" and thrown away they key in prison for life, paying for my upkeep and the sterilization procedures you recommended and also for the government care for my existing children--or, would you rather I had access to methadone treatment that I paid every last red cent for out of my own money earned at a regular 8-5 job, paid my bills, cared for and supported my seriously ill husband and children who otherwise would have been burdens on society, volunteered my time to help others, recovered my health and happiness, and became a valuable, contributing member of society once again, at zero expense to you?

In our country, the VAST majority of methadone patients pay their clinic fees out of their own pockets--often upwards of $150 a week. The majority of private clinic patients are employed, not sitting around drooling, shooting dope and stealing. Perhaps you might consider that our country's adequate dosing policies may have something to do with this--the UK average dose is over 50% lower than the MINIMUM effective dose for most patients, leaving most of your p

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'Hezza,

24/07/2007 18:09:39

I'm sometimes astonished by the attitudes in these forums; this is one of those times.

We need to stop treating drug addicts as criminals and start treating them!

I'm sorry, but how many people on this forum sneaked a drink of alcohol before they were 18, or a cig before they were 16? Well, if you did it is little different to the kid who was told not to smoke some brown. Problem is, by the time you understand why it is wrong, you are hooked. Then there are those who are poorly educated (about drugs or otherwise), the mentally ill, the abused, the list goes on.

We need to treat these people and try to view their criminality/prostitution/etc as a symptom of their disease, just as we don't lock up tourettes sufferers for foul and abuse language. Yes, some heroin addict are scum, but so are some business men I deal with. Many are not though.

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'Hezza,

24/07/2007 18:24:28

Well, Pharmacy Perspective, you are exactly who I am talking to...if someone came in with a sore head looking for an aspirin, do you judge them? Sore head? Dehydrated? Flu? Hang over?

Do you tell them how to take it? No more than 2 every 4 hours at 600mg? Why should people who will inject anyway not receive instruction? They inject because the drug pushes them into it.

Are you a pharmacist? If you are, you are highly educated; most of the pharmacists I knew took an 'active' interest in their subject. You will understand that drugs ban be massively addictive - it just happens that some are socially acceptable.

Right, Hezza Rant over! I'm off for my fix...of mince, tatties, peas, and just possibly a nice glass of cabernet shiraz.

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Miss H,

24/07/2007 18:27:31

We also need to look at why we have such high addiction levels in the first place - whether legal or illegal drugs. The fact that for many years mental health services have been the 'Cinderella of the NHS is important I think. A lot of people who end up as addicts start off 'self-treating' because of underlying mental health problems.

The Tories made a big play of improving mental health services as well as acess to rehabilitation during the election and I hope they continue to press for that as they are absolutely right. Not often I agree with the Tories but I do on this one.

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Richardinho,

24/07/2007 18:44:37

'Well, Pharmacy Perspective, you are exactly who I am talking to...if someone came in with a sore head looking for an aspirin, do you judge them? Sore head? Dehydrated? Flu? Hang over? '

Hmm, so some dishevelled aggressive junkies come into your shop demanding drugs, scaring your decent customers away, and you 'wouldn't judge them'?

What a saintly fellow you are.

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melissa,

24/07/2007 20:10:51

Richardinho / 6:29pm 24 Jul 2007 Melissa-having read your post, can I make a small point?

The figures you give for greater death rates under methadone than with heroin are under the circumstances of heroin being illegal. Many of the deaths attributed to heroin will most likely be due to other factors, such as overdosing and infected batches, both of which are largely due to the drug being illegal.

It is therefore fair to conclude that on a level playing field, methadone is a far more dangerous drug than heroin.


I would say methadone is much more dangers...methadone is legal and a pharmaceutical...heroin is cut with who knows what and still kills less people!!!!

This methadone epidemic and deaths associated with it are not going away. It's only getting worse; I get contacted by families on a daily basis who have lost someone to this drug. At what point do we value human life over the convenience of others? Methadone patients, whether they are pain or clinic pose a risk to themselves and society as a whole if they are not monitored, dosed, and assessed correctly. Clinic patients getting into cars after being dosed who are using benzodiazepines, alcohol, or other opiates are killing innocent people on the road. This type of harm reduction is not saving lives it’s taking them. The government cannot continue to be a legal drug dealer in order for its citizens to “behave”. Many MMT patients claim that they have been able to maintain sobriety for long periods of time (several years) but are unhappy and depressed therefore seek out MMT and describe the "high" they get from this is what makes them happy. They describe this phenomenon Endorphin Deficiency which is another "off-label" use of methadone. I have yet to be able to find this "diagnosis" listed in the DSM IV but I'm am sure there is a large percentage of the population that suffer from this as endorphin deficiency is precipitated not only by opiate abuse

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LillyT,

Chicago, IL 24/07/2007 21:18:58

Methadone is not the #2 killer in the U.S, or anywhere else for that matter. This is one of the worst examples of blatant "false advertising" and hysteria than I have EVER seen.

Would you guys be saying this about people who take Tylenol for aches and pains? Or diabetics who need insulin?

Every day now there is more and more science coming out proving that addiction is indeed a disease of the brain - and that when treated with medication like a "normal' disease, the success rates skyrocket upward, from a dingy 5% with normal rehabs, to over 75% IN CASES where people are properly dosed.

Do you realize that THE ONLY reason why ANY OF YOU have even heard of methadone is because of the Oxycontin craze? Doctors became afraid to prescribe it anymore, so they switched to methadone. As a result of the fact that many of them were not educated on proper dosing and in turn didn't educate their patients, methadone started to become a more household name. Not from people dying, but because methadone clinics became the norm.

They were moved out of the ghettos and into "normal" neighborhoods because they started to finally realize that addiction strikes ANYWHERE - even in the most complacent and "nice" of neighborhoods.

I guarantee that if any one of you had a loved one suffering from this disease and you you had an opportunity to get "them" back with this drug, you would be singing a different tune.

This drug has saved thousands upon thousands of lives, and the statistic speak for themselves. There is a solid reason why it has been in use for over 40 years - and that is because IT WORKS.

I'm all for education. I believe the general public who gets prescribed this drug needs to be responsible and not divert this drug at all. (Which, btw, a lot of diversion does come from pain patients and not those being treated for addiction) I feel bad for anyone who lost their child or loved one for

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zenith,

USA 24/07/2007 22:07:13

While it is true that methadone related deaths have risen in the past 3 years, it is not due to any kind of major increase in clinic diversion, but instead is due to diversion from methadone prescribed for pain relief. Many large studies have shown this--howeverm it is much eaier to point the finger at clinic patients and claim the fault is theirs and theirs alone, whether or not the claim is accurate, because people are much more likely to blame and stigmatize an addict than pain patients. You could stop methadone maintenance tomorrow and close down all the clinics and the rising death rate would just continue on, because it is NOT coming primarily from there!!!! It's coming from pain patients who are overprescribed medication, who sell their medication, whose medication is stolen out of their med. cabinets, whose meds are diverted from the pharmacy, and are diverted from the manufacturers. Clinic diversion exists as it always has, but the increase in diversion came about only when physicians began Rxing methadone for pain in lieu of Oxycontin. Prior to that it had rarely been prescribed for pain, and people are slowly learning that it makes a very poor "party drug" due to it's lack of euphoria and unpredictable nature in opioid naive individuals. Education is the answer, not gestapo tactics, blame and hate.

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Richardinho,

24/07/2007 22:10:49

Quite frankly Lilly, though, the only advantage of methodone would seem to be that 'it's not heroin'-which seems pointless to me if, as has been suggested, methodone is actually more addictive than heroin and more potentially poisonous. a quick search on the internet provides many sources backing up this suggestion.

Not much of a 'cure' that kills you is it?

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24/07/2007 22:17:16
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Carel,

Isle of Skye 24/07/2007 22:17:22

Lilly T - you prove these discussions can after all be instructive. Thanks.

People are different from each other. They react diofferently to different drugs because they have more or fewer functioning receptors to this or that neurotransmitter. Someone may be defficient in producing in his own body thr chemicals that bind to certain receptors; they may be deficient in certain receptors; the distribution of receptors round parts of the brain that govern/process decision making, panic, appetite, mood, perception - . This means that some people are going to experience some particular drugs as if these drugs are correcting something that had been wrong.

Mostly, the poor sods would have been far better accepting that this corrective does more harm than good really (enter education) - but someone who does not feel that without a certain substance he cannot ever feel happy is lucky. And I wish such lucky people the added luck of not having excessively judgmental temperaments.

These are as much doled out by the receptors and neurotransmitters as a taste for opiates is.

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24/07/2007 23:14:20
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zenith,

USA 24/07/2007 23:35:13

Melissa, I agree with your last paragraph completely.

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Clive R,

USA 24/07/2007 23:35:54

>>It is therefore fair to conclude that on a level playing field, methadone is a far more dangerous drug than heroin.<<

Isn't that the truth. And of course most young people going on methadone today are addicted to hydrocodone pills, not heroin. These kids swallowing pills are not going to die of an overdose or contract HIV,

So the claims that "methadone saves thpusands of lives" are untrue. Methadone is no longer "harm reduction" in the same way it was back when most addicts were shooting heroin and commiting serious crimes to support their habit.

Nowadays, it's just more convenient to go on methadone than to have to leave your job, and your girlfriend, and go away to a detox and rehab. It's so much easier to just sign on a methadone clinic and tell yourself that the rehab would never "work" anyway.

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zenith,

USA 24/07/2007 23:35:57

However, what is being done to stop the diversion from other sources?

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zenith,

USA 24/07/2007 23:51:40

And Clive--did you even READ my other posts? The purpose of methadone is NOT to just avoid withdrawals!! It is to correct permanently damaged brain chemistry. You can go through traditional detox and rehab over and over but it will never correct a PHYSICAL, chemical problem.

Addiction and dependence are two different things--ask almost any trained doctor or scientist. They have different symptoms. If addiction is defined solely by becoming ill when the drug is withdrawn, that would make addicts out of a lot of people, including diabetics, epileptics, cardiac patients, etc. Addiction is defined by manipulative behavior, increasing the amount of the drug, taking it more often than prescribed, seeking ways to get more than you need to treat your condition, lying to medical personnel and family members, being obsessed with the drug and unable to take care of normal daily responsibilities, etc. Dependence, however, merely means that your body is habituated to the medication and you would suffer withdrawals were it withdrawn abruptly. While I am still an addict, I am NOT addicted to methadone--I am dependent on it. I take it exactly as prescribed to correct a chronic physical condition and it enables me to live a normal, law abiding, decent and productive life. 20 years of desperate attempts at these wonderful rehabs you say are so great left me feeling absolutely miserable and wretched with depression and cravings and a hideous sense of failure. Now, in just 3 years on MMT my life is completely back on track, I have the respect and trust of family and co workers, I have pride in myself, and I am a productive member of society. Don't fool yourselves into believing Iam unusual, for I am not.

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zenith,

USA 24/07/2007 23:59:39

And Clive, it is in no way "easy" to sign onto a clinic. In my country, many people travel several hours every day for years to get to the clinic. They wait in huge lines that make it nearly impossible to hold down a job. They must deal with endless stigma, judgement and ignorance. They have to meet many requirements to get even one take home dose. (some clinics are closed on sundays but I agree with Melissa that this is wrong). They have to go to groups, to counseling sessions, etc. If they miss paying for even one day--no medication. Most of them pay for their treatment out of their own pockets at very high rates--$60 to $150 a week. A lot for a minimum wage worker. They have to worry that their employer may find out and fire them. They have to listen to grief from uninformed family members. They have to pee in front of opposite sex clinic workers. They may lose all their takehomes if they have a false positive urine screen, thus endangering their jobs. It is NOT an easy solution, despite your beliefs. Maybe it is different over there, but here it is one of the toughest choices you can make. Even though it has saved my life, the fact is that I deal with stigma and prejudice every single day, and with people who would much rather I went back to the way I was than be on this medication, simply because of the many false assumptions about it.

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rozzelle,

88th flr. 25/07/2007 00:24:48

Addiction is a disease, the brain does not produce the proper chemicals in the proper amounts so that the person can function properly. Methadone is like many other medications it works well for some and not for others. I hope that Sandra can find the method that will give her long lasting relief from addiction.
I have seen lives ruined by untreated addictions, people spending thousands and thousands of dollars to spend a month in a "re-habilitation" center and doing it time and time again, all with the same results, failure with in weeks of completion of the "program" Failure!!
Many of the abstinance based rehabilitation programs have very low rates of recovery, less than 10%.
Methadone has given me a quality life that I was unable to have without it. I was able to attend college, took a position in my field, and have been continuously employed. I am able to support myself, take care of my responsibilities and help others in my community. I have a full, rich life and there are many others just like me, but you would never know it , we are your neighbors, your Children's teachers, your Attorneys, your Dr.s, the clerk at the local store. We are responsible citizens and are just like everyone else, but because of the stigma many are reluctant to speak out.
beth

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Animal Doc to Be,

Edinburgh 25/07/2007 00:48:33

I believe methadone has a role, but only a role along with other drugs in detoxification. I firmly believe that if only our goverment would save money in the long run if it would invest in more real drug treatment, residential treatment which involves getting someone off drugs as soon as is feasiblr, psychotherapy and an approach of which the importance of abstinence is paramount. Such an approach for high success takes a minimum on average of 35 days of intensive in patient treatment and at least a years follow up of regular counselling including weekend inpatient visits.

For those advocating cold turkey, it is often the case, that the worse a person's experience, the harsher the effect on the body and brain chemistry the more likely relapse is. However detoxification outpatient has a poor success rate. And however they got there, by the time someone is seeking treatment, I do not believe the majority are in control of their actions. I know there are people in this life who manage to cope with severe psychological distress without resorting to drugs, but for some they haven't exactly had great role models in life. I'm not saying that excuses them, but the pain these individuals are in is excruciating. I know everyone associates the addict with the granny mugger but that is not always the case.

Many people become addicts through doctors. Even tranquillisers like diazepam are many times more addictive than heroin. However, when these people request rehabilitation, they are often knocked back by the very doctors who got them hooked in the first place rather than providing proper counselling, which they just don't have access to.

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Animal Doc to Be,

Edinburgh 25/07/2007 00:56:58

I should add that I am not saying maintenance methadone is never an option that should be offered, just not the standard treatment.

No 71: I acknowledge your point regarding rehabilitation centres. Any centre is only as good as the staff within it, and short term treatment on its own is useless, it needs to be followed up with ongoing counselling, regular weekend residential stays, a mechanism for 24 hr trained telephone support and an ongoing recovery plan. There also needs to be flexibility for longer inpatient treatment where required. I do disagree with your success rate figure for the right centres, however one of the problems is they are few and far between and being the most promiment and famous does not mean they are the best. However, yes success rate even with inpatient rehabilitation has a low success rate, however the same is true with any method. Again, I am not saying that maintenance methadone is for nobody, if it works for you, great. I just feel it should be by far not a first, second, or even third line treatment.

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zenith,

USA 25/07/2007 01:09:53

I had twenty years of "proper counseling" by everything from substance abuse trainee counselors to phychiatrists with years of experience. I spent YEARS of my time in treatment facilities, went to THOUSANDS of 12 step meetings and did all that was asked of me and more, went to every type of class available, learned all there was to know about substance abuse biophysics, took every available antidepressant--as prescribed--went to inpatient, outpatient, therapeutic communities, jail rehabs, prison rehabs, court ordered rehabs, posh rehabs, not so posh rehabs, learned all about my "triggers", got my "toolbox" filled with the "tools of recovery", called my sponsor, meditated, prayed, went to church, I did it ALL. And, like Rozelle says, IT...DID...NOT...WORK!!!! Because it DID NOT FIX what was wrong with my brain chemistry, any more than all that would help a diabetic who needs insulin! Some people may be able to use it as a sort term detox aid because they have not sustained permanent damage, but others HAVE, and no amount of traditional therapy will help THAT without the assistance of proper medication. This is a chronic, incurable disease that can be managed with medication but not cured--I speak not of addiction itself but of the brain chemistry derangement that occurs in some long term addicts. For this subset, methadone treatment will likely need to be long term. I know of MANY people who have been on methadone for over 20 years and are active, healthy and responsible citizens, not hulking crippled wrecks "poisoned" by this "horrible drug".

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zenith,

USA 25/07/2007 01:16:17

And about it not being a "first line treatment", I do agree. But, had someone offered me MMT before I spent 20 YEARS bouncing from one wonderful long term rehab to another--with years of aftercare, follow up care, etc--I might have been saved no end of despair and loss. One reason why many MMT patients are so "down and out" is because their disease has been allowed to progress so FAR before REAL medical treatment is offered. Traditional rehab is almost always based on 12 step treatment, which insists that the only way to recover is to ask god to miraculously cure you, and then seek to pass that along to others. If any other physical or psychiatric disease were treated in this was and ONLY this way, there would be a public outcry--but for addicts, it's all there is.

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Clive R,

USA 25/07/2007 01:24:30

>>And Clive--did you even READ my other posts?<<

Oh yes, but I believe hardly any of it. Addiction, different from dependence? Well maybe so, but your defintion is baloney. According to you, someone with a steady supply of heroin is not an addict at all.

You seem to say there is nothing wrong at all with abusing drugs, it's only when you can't get your drugs that you have a problem. Tell that to the children and families of addicts and alcoholics.

And the claim that methadone replaces chemicals that your body is lacking is even more farfetched. People go on methadone not because they're short on endorphins, but because they've gotten themselves addicted to heroin or oxycodone. Clearly, methadone does not replace "natural" chemicals, it replaces the heroin or oxycodone you've been abusing. If the former were true, you would have been walking around in acute withdrawal your whole life untill you got on methadone.

I believe there probably is a biochemical predisposition to addiction. But to try to claim that taking huge doses of opiate drugs puts you back into your normal state is pure rubbish. Methadone is given to chronic pain patients for one reason, because it provides analgesia. It is this analgesic effect that you're replacing because you've gotten used to it. It's not "normal" the way you used to be. Having no sex drive and being chronically constipated is not the way we used to be.

These theories you push to promote methadone are not believable.

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aonghas,

Malaysia 25/07/2007 02:21:17

Zenith

I admire you - nobody goes to the careers officer at school and says I don't wnt to be an architect or an doctor or a saleswoman - I would rather be a junkie.

I wonder how many "bad choices" the social cleansing" critics here have made in their lives - maybe not so obvious huh!
Think about it when you are scooping back your drug of choice at your local on Friday night.

Zenith you have been to hell & back - and YOU ARE NOT AN EXCEPTION - there are over 3 million recovering opiate addicts in the world - now theres a statistic to play with!

Well done zenith for telling us its DO-ABLE and never mind the scribes, pharisees and hypocrites.

DENIAL IS NOT A RIVER THAT FLOWS THROUGH EGYPT (on all aspects of our lives) - you that are perfect!

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zenith,

usa 25/07/2007 03:52:50

Clive--you are so wrong, and your comments show that you did not carefully read what I wrote at all and totally misunderstood me. But don't listen to me--why don't you check out HBO's recent 14 part documentary on addiction? There you can hear medical and scientific experts--the best minds in the field, and see CAT scans of the addicted brain. Perhaps you might want to speak with Dr. Edwin Salsitz, of Beth Israel Medical Center in New York, or Dr. Payte of San Antonio, Texas, or even some writings by M. Scott Peck MD (of the Road Less Traveled fame). This is not "blarney", it's medical science. And those who are born with endorphin deficiency syndrome DO go through much of their life in a condition not unlike withdrawal, though it is more similar to post acute withdrawal than acute withdrawal, and involves the lingering severe depression, anxiety, sleep disturbances, pain and lethargy that characterize that phase.
Frankly though, what alarms me most is the sheer meanness and viciousness and obvious hatred with which so many of you post. I would much prefer to be an addict, and be on methadone forevermore, than to be a non-addict and be like that. I don't think they have a medication to treat that kind of self righteous hatred and ugliness.

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zenith,

usa 25/07/2007 03:53:30

By the way, thank you, aonghas, for your kind words.

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Clive R,

USA 25/07/2007 04:32:48

Zenith,
The Dr.s you mention, are longtime members of the methadone business. They are not impatial researchers.

I can't speak for anyone else but I take no issue with methadone patients as parents, and certainly have no hatred of you or anyone. If being on methadone is OK with you, that's OK with me.

I take issue only with the justifications and pseudo-science that are used to promote the drug. People never *have to* use drugs.

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25/07/2007 08:38:54
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Animal Doc to Be,

Edinburgh 25/07/2007 09:28:54

Zenith, I just wanted to say, I am glad you perser
vered and have made a life for yourself. It takes a lot of courage to come out even with some anonymity on the internet and admit to what you have. Addiction has a horrendous stigma and there is no doubt as you say that it is a disease. defined as such by the WHO and the BMA since the 1970s, with known biochemical and microanatomical changes and a horrendous disease at that. Well done for making it. And yes you are right, a lot of people would be amazed at the closet sufferers, priests, doctors, lawyers, veterinarians, all human beings. Addiction has a prevalence estimate of 10 - 15%
It is very likely people know someone with this disease.

I agree, it is a huge problem that a lot of rehabilitation centres insist on the 12 step approach when it is clearly not working. However I do not feel it is without value. Like any other disease, for some it works, for some it doesn't, for some when it works it works fantastically well, for some when it works it leaves them clean but miserable and doesn't work so well. The problem is that a lot of counsellors are in recovery themselves and cannot see past the 12 step method which worked for them (While at the same time preaching open mindedness.)

It is necessary however that it is recognised early whether a particular approach will work or not. Unfortunately I only knew of two rehabs which would divert from this approach where it was clear it wasn't working and one is now closed. It had the minor problem that it would accept individuals on the promise of payment later and the director while a caring man was slightly naive in this respect and the place folded.

You may have gathered that I have more than a passing interest in the subject of addiction and its treatment. I am always delighted to hear of people that have fought addiction and won, I know only too many people that didn't including some within my family.

Zenith, I would like it if y

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zenith,

usa 25/07/2007 11:01:34

Not sure what you mean, Digory, but I appreciate what he said. I'll drop you a line, Darkest.

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Animal Doc to Be,

Edinburgh 25/07/2007 14:37:45

lol Diggory. I don't bite.


 

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