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Organ donor opt-out scheme 'treats body like spare parts'



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Published Date: 21 March 2008
AN opt-out system for organ donations risks treating people's bodies like a "collection of spare parts akin to a used car lot", according to the Kirk's official magazine.
Senior politicians, including First Minister Alex Salmond and Prime Minister Gordon Brown, have indicated they support a change from the current opt-in system for donations to one of "presumed consent" where doctors work on the basis that organs are
available for transplant unless the individual has specified otherwise.

But an editorial in the latest issue of Church of Scotland Life and Work says: "There are many who feel that government interference in our lives is already excessive and ownership of the body with its Orwellian undertones is a step too far.

"The prospect of our bodies which have been 'the temple of the soul' being a mere collection of spare parts akin to a used car lot and wholly owned in death by the government is abhorrent."

But Lothians Labour MSP George Foulkes, who has led the campaign in the Scottish Parliament in favour of the move to an opt-out system, said the magazine's comments showed a complete lack of understanding of the issues.

He said: "The proposals would include comprehensive safeguards for those wishing to opt out and also give surviving relatives the final say. It is really sad that if the Life and Work view were to prevail, many people would die needlessly."

In a separate contribution in the magazine, Edinburgh elder and former Kirk Moderator Alison Elliot also voices reservations about the opt-out idea.

She writes: "To gift your organs, probably to a stranger, is a solemn and important decision for anyone to make and a person should be enabled to make it with dignity and after due consideration. If we begin to think of people as a useful source of transplants, this could cast a shadow over the trust that is a key element in the relationship between doctor and patient."

But Kate Milne, an Edinburgh grandmother, who had a liver transplant almost 18 years ago, writes in the magazine in favour of presumed consent. She argues families should not have to be asked to give permission for a transplant at their most vulnerable moment.

"The family of the young man who were asked and who gave permission for their son's liver to be donated, which enabled me to have the gift of life, are above and beyond any praise or gratitude, but all families who are asked the same question don't give the same answer. This is why I believe presumed consent must be the way forward."





The full article contains 444 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 21 March 2008 10:46 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Duncan in Edinburgh,

21/03/2008 12:14:54
Why should a stranger's irrational belief system impact on what happens to my body parts after I die? "Temple of the soul", aye right. What about the benefits of saving human lives? Or are we seriously to submit to the notion that the "soul" is more important than life itself?

It's all very well to personally hold such irrational beliefs, but they have no place in public policy. We should be past all this.
2

Jams,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 12:27:51
Kate Milne would have us ignore the wishes of others in our own interests - I'm sorry but that is selfish. I don't underestimate how serious the issue is and for the record I am a registered donor.

It does not ease the burden of grieving relatives if rather than saying "Would you consider donating his kidneys to help someone else live?" you say "We couldn't find an opt out from him so we have taken what we want and there is nothing you can do about it."
3

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

21/03/2008 12:29:10
'Temple of the soul'...right okay...well if ye believe in the soul...it'l be long gone whin yer pan breid right?..and whits left behind is as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike...so lets get sensible...use the noggin...if there's a useful organ in there...fish it oot!....nae point in it gaun tae waste eh?...that way yer wee 'temple' kin help perform a miracle for some other poor 'soul'...
4

Duncan in Edinburgh,

21/03/2008 13:07:34
#2 But it actually does ease the burden of relatives if the decision is not theirs to take. Often the most challenging part of such a decision is that families believe the person was in favour of donating but have to explicitly make the decision themselves.

Polls suggest that the majority of people who do not carry a donor card are not actively against donation, they just either haven't addressed it or haven't got around to getting a card. So presumption of opposition is usually wrong, and the interests of the majority can be better served by presumption of agreement, with a robust opt-out scheme to catch the minority who are opposed.
5

Fi,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 13:17:13
With either an opt-in or an opt-out system errors or chages of belief can occur. The only check is the next of kin's consent. That is why this is a vital step in the process and should never be removed. Unfortunately, an opt-in proposal would greatly reduce the efficacy of obtaining next of kin's consent.

By assuming that everyone is a donor, families will be faced with having to come up with a good reason to say no. They will be under incredible percieved peer pressure to say yes, as if everyone else's families are saying yes.

This goes against the principal of donation. Donation is a gift. Presumed consent is not donation it is statutory body snatching.

We do not herd up healthy adults off the streets and force them to give blood, despite shortages of this vital medical commodity.

(I am a blood donor and registered organ donor, through informed consent.)
6

Labradoodle,

21/03/2008 13:48:49

"But an editorial in the latest issue of Church of Scotland Life and Work says: "There are many who feel that government interference in our lives is already excessive and ownership of the body with its Orwellian undertones is a step too far."

Well I feel that the church interference in our lives is already excessive.

It is not rocket science if you don't want to donate - opt out, simple.
7

Duncan in Edinburgh,

21/03/2008 13:49:42
#5 I understand your argument, but to me the flaw in it is that consent is the right of the individual, not their next of kin. Families can fundamentally disagree on such moral issues. We need to find a way which best captures the view of the individual in life, and opt-out appears to do better than opt-in on this basis.

Peer pressure on families is unwelcome, but it would be false to suggest that it does not already exist, and as I pointed out above, the difficulty is often in trying to guess what the person would have wanted, and we can take away some of that difficulty with an opt-out scheme.
8

THE BPRENTICE,

21/03/2008 14:09:45
An opt-out system for organ donations makes perfect sense - if someone doesn't want their bits donated to help others live - they can act accordingly.

I've been carrying a donor card (for all parts) and have registered years ago - I personally like to think that parts of my body maybe helping prolong other people/s lives is more important than the sentimentality of keeping my corpse intact.

My wife and family know how I feel about it and they are cool - nobody else seems to want to think about it though.
9

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

21/03/2008 14:13:11
2...I can understand where you are coming from but put the shoe on the other foot...the same relatives are standing by the bedside of a loved one who has just been in a major car accident....they badly need an organ that is not available...the clock is ticking...
10

tomias,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 15:39:58
No one see the TV programme on spare parts the other night. Now that is a scam dying to happen.
Transplant surgery etc is a great skill and a life save- it will take a lot of carefull inbetweens to ensure that the criminals are kept out/
11

jdships,

21/03/2008 17:01:40
In a democracy , we do live in one I believe, I reserve the right of choice whatever that may be re donation of organs or any other personal matter.
We should fight tooth and nail to preserve that right if not we give in to an Orwellian situation .
It matters not if I carry a donor card and/or am a blood donor it is our right to choose.
UK has become big enough "Nanny State" already.
12

Kipling,

21/03/2008 17:03:48
Certainly people need transplantable material, but would you want your body parts to help someone like Tony Bliar to live, should the occasion ever remotely occur where he might need a transplant? Or an alcoholic a liver, when you've controlled your own drinking? This is more to do with christian sacrifice for others than the anti-religionists above might give credit for.
13

Janice,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 17:22:07
#'It is not rocket science if you don't want to donate - opt out, simple' ........... How about 'It is not rocket science if you DO want to donate - OPT IN - even more simple!!!!

No-one has the right to think they can use our bodies as spare parts.
14

Duncan in Edinburgh,

21/03/2008 17:30:46
#11 No, you don't. There are thousands of instances of situations where we as individuals have surrendered our individual right to choose in favour of a social model of governmental control, intended to be beneficial to as many as possible, and harmful to as few as possible.

Many personal choices are regulated by the state, from the right to ingest drugs to the right to end our own lives. And we were a democracy 50 years ago when we had the death penalty, which exercised the ultimate state control over personal freedom. Democracy doesn't mean personal freedom - it means the right to choose the government which constrains us!

This is not an Orwellian plot. It is an attempt to improve the common good, to save lives.
15

Duncan in Edinburgh,

21/03/2008 17:33:52
#13 The problem, as has been explained, is that many people when asked will express a willingness to have their organs and tissues used to help others to live after they die; but many of those never get around to "opting in".

Those who have strong feelings about not wanting their body parts to be reused (and I have to say I've never heard a logical argument against it) would be motivated to opt out. The point is to shift the unmotivated majority to a supposition of agreement - supported by survey results - rather than a supposition of opposition - which has no grounds at all.
16

Paul Voltiare,

21/03/2008 19:10:08
You opt out unless you express a wish to opt in.
That's the way it stays.
Too many "dead" people have shown signs of pain during organ removals from their bodies.
Surgeons have expressed concerns that "brain dead" donors can still feel pain during such organ removals, even though they are unconscious & heavily sedated.
Organ donor transplants have to be taken when the body is still alive - & the process involves removing tissue from an "unconscious", but still living person.
17

Paul Voltiare,

21/03/2008 19:16:18
#15 Duncan, #13 is quite right & as for your admittance that you have never heard a logical argument etc, you really need to get away from behind your computer keyboard & get out more. See #16 for enlightenment.
18

Evia,

21/03/2008 20:19:44
My body belongs to me and the State should not have any say in what happens to it at any time. Whether one wants to donate organs is a personal matter but I fear that surgeons could be so desperate for donor parts that they would not care whether I suffered any pain.

Smacks a bit of Burke & Hare.
19

Duncan in Edinburgh,

21/03/2008 20:30:00
More irrational comment in #16 and #18. Why would "brain dead" patients feel pain under the sort of anaesthesia which is used successfully in tens of thousands of operations every day? You are just searching for a justification, and you haven't found one.

And I see Mr Voltiare is stalking me today. How unpleasant.
20

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 20:47:35
I really think, the biggest problem that will take place, is when you have the,

'Trigger Happy Doctor'! as in the scenario below,

"We could save this patient, but it would take loads of drugs, care and effort"

"Hmm" "me thinks I need their heart and kidneys for that patient next door"

"NURSE SWITCH OF THEIR LIFE SUPPORT"!

"What a Hero I Am"

__________________

Patient near dead, organs removed, now very dead!

And DONT say it wont happen, IT WILL! humans being humans and all that!
21

Duncan in Edinburgh,

21/03/2008 20:56:25
#20 Apart from the dreadful characterisation of the medical profession as amoral and callous, your post doesn't stand up for the simple fact that intensive care staff would have no knowledge of patients waiting for organs for transplant - the two specialisms are usually, both medically and geographically, miles apart.

If an organ becomes available, the chance that it will match someone in the same hospital - or even the same area of the country - is often remote. The scenario of doctors hovering over dying patients like ghouls is not only offensive, it is completely unrealistic.
22

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 21:03:56
Duncan @#21,

Appreciated, but what if the NHS put the intensive care unit under pressure to collect Organs,?

Just like the Social Services in England, put pressure on inspectors to take children away from their Mother and foster them out (targets and money involved)

So Don't say it cant happen, because it will!

But I am open to Argument as Usual, and never fall out with anyone.
23

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 21:06:43
'Honey-Pot', run me a bath so back soon!
24

Duncan in Edinburgh,

21/03/2008 21:15:03
#22 Well you might as well ask "what if the NHS put the maternity unit under pressure to kill newborns?". It's just as offensive an idea. And just as monumentally unlikely.
25

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 21:40:32
Duncan @#24,

Had to giggle at you pulling that one out the hat, you know it would bring reaction as in, re our situation.

Beg to differ though, maybe under a 'Hitler' regime it could be the case, but in this instance, it is quite different.

BTW I am not against Organ Donation, but the word for its meaning, as in 'Donation' then becomes redundant, call it Organ Stealing, from the dead or near dead as this page went before I got here.

BTW does this mean we are free to 'Dig up Graves' for fun,?
As the Dead have NO Rights,?
I think under Scottish Law they may have Rights!
26

Duncan in Edinburgh,

21/03/2008 22:05:39
#25 Deliberately chosen example, indeed! But both suggestions are equally horrific as far as I am concerned. I would be aghast if any doctor contemplated the sort of exploitation of the "near dead" that you are suggesting could happen. I guess the difference between us is that you can believe that one of those scenarios could happen in today's Scotland - I consider them both to be outrageously unlikely.

I think the presumption issue - whether we presume that people would want their organs donated in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, or we presume that they wouldn't unless they have explicitly said so - has to come down to prevailing public opinion. I have seen surveys which suggest that a majority of people would be happy to have their organs reused despite them not having registered or carried a card.

A well-publicised opt-out scheme would allow those who felt strongly about what happens to their bits after they are dead and gone to exercise their rights. But more importantly, it would save many lives, by giving many more opportunities for life-saving operations to people currently destined to die for the lack of a donor.
27

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 22:25:51
Duncan re 26,
You carry good argument, to which I cant wrong, whereas I look for 'loop-holes' that may become a reality.

I don't have a Religious viewpoint, nor as I said against the word 'Donation', but on a Moral viewpoint, I do have many!

You only have to look back History to see how a perfectly sounding implementation, was implemented and was abused to more than we could ever imagine.

Look at Jersey Children's Home, that seems to be Press blacked-out,

Yes it may of sounded the right thing to implement for the Authorities at the Time, not though having the "imagination" to see past GO! and what happened there.

So you-see that's why I do the, loophole imagination part,

I DONT Believe in the 'Rose Garden'..life ain't like this is it,?

Hence this Organ Taking scheme, will be Abused unless strict, very strict, ground rules are put in place.
28

Evia,

21/03/2008 22:38:45
19 Duncan in Edinburgh

I don't think I am being irrational. The things that bother me can happen. I am not against organ donation but would want safeguards in place to make certain I was properly dead. There still seems to be some difference of opinion as to whether one is dead when heart stops or when brain stops.

I would also like to know what safeguards are in place for the recipients of organs. What would happen if someone received an organ that came from a donor who wasn't aware of having a disease such as cancer, or an auto-immune system disease? I am aware that I cannot donate, but if I should die as a result of a road accident or sudden illness when away from home, who would know that I should not donate?

I still think that the state has no business deciding what happens to our bodies after death. As far as I am concerned it might be better to target people through setting up stalls in shopping centres, libraries and other places. This could be done from time to time and might help register more donors.
29

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 22:54:30
Evia, good-evening, yes,
"I would also like to know what safeguards"

Is a Key Question!

"I still think that the state has no business deciding what happens to our bodies after death."

YES as in re my comment, NO RIGHTS and digging grave for fun!

OR is the state saying a Dead Body Belongs to them,?

In my Books and probally in Scottish Law, that would be classed as theft!
30

Duncan in Edinburgh,

21/03/2008 23:05:41
#28 I suppose the difference between us, Evia, is that I have a high opinion of UK medical staff, and you seem to think that they lack the ability to discern whether someone is alive or dead. In any case, that challenge, were it real, would apply whether we opt in or out.

You raise a very good point about those unable, by virtue of a medical condition, to be a donor. I believe, though I may be wrong, that before someone is considered as a donor their full medical history has to be available. If a medical history cannot be obtained, I think donation isn't possible except in cases where the tissue itself can be tested in situ.

People unaware of existing conditions would pose a problem whether we have opt-in or opt-out, so one would assume that either the risk is small, or the testing regime is effective, since it doesn't seem to be an issue of concern just now.

I think I recognise another difference between us in your final paragraph, and that is that I have absolutely no interest in what happens to my body after my death, because I will be dead!
31

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 23:38:55
Duncan @#30,

"I have absolutely no interest in what happens to my body after my death, because I will be dead!"

OK this may be the case, but you appear not to take loved ones and relatives feelings into account!

(Sounds a bit self-centered, unless you discussed before hand)

32

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/03/2008 00:07:44
#31 It's a fair point, and one I have considered.

Slightly off-topic: I used to be very concerned that my body would not be made part of a Christian burial service, or any other form of ritual incantation or the like, because I have strong atheist convictions and felt it would be hypocrisy and misrepresentation. Talking to my partner and family about it, I realised that actually, what happens after I am dead, whether or not they choose to do such - to me - ridiculous things, is a matter of complete indifference to me. I will be dead.

The idea of people's memories of me being clouded by an entirely inappropriate ceremony used to bother me a great deal. But as I have aged and mellowed, I realise that all such constructs are relevant only to the living, and if it helps people to pretend that I was something that I wasn't, then let them do so! It's not like I'll be looking down from the great beyond shaking my ghostly fist. I'll just be decomposing. I'll be done and dusted.

Unless parts of me have been re-used, that is. In which case I suppose there's an outside chance that my pancreas might get a bit narky about it.
33

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 00:37:03
Duncan @#32,

On a close note, yes we all hopefully learn and "Mellow" with age.

"When your Dead Your Dead" is the case as far as I can see, but don't know any ghosts I can ask!

The main thing for me in all of this, your nearest and dearest, loved ones and relatives, must not be put in a position of being told the State now owns a loved ones Body, who Died under the presumption that because they did not opt out means, 'I signed my Body to the State'

And getting back to our 'Baby issue', how can a BaBa opt out,?

Who decides then,? State or Greiving Parents,?
34

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/03/2008 00:51:23
#33 Charles, presumably since children cannot opt out, it would always be the parents' decision. That is the case currently (children cannot opt in either, I think the minimum age for a donor card is 16?), and it would almost certainly remain the case in an opt-out system.
35

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 02:45:02
Duncan, very good! enjoyed the discussion!
36

The Phantommmmm,

22/03/2008 10:30:10
My body is not the property of the state. I carry an organ donor card presently, permiting the use of any part of my body, but if the state presumes ownership of my body I will opt out.
37

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/03/2008 10:55:04
#36 You should be fine then, since no-one is proposing that the state should presume ownership of your body.

You should be aware that in countries with presumed consent systems already - including France and Spain - the system works well, relatives still have the right to say no, and transplant waiting lists are much shorter than in the UK. In other words, lives are saived by this approach.
38

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/03/2008 10:55:22
#35 Charles, so did I!
39

Matt there,

somewhere 23/03/2008 01:14:37
If all bodies are viewed as organ banks, what is to stop a doctor not bothering too hard to save one patient if he or she knows the kidneys will save one person, the liver another, the heart another and the eyes will grant sight to someone else?

I remember an article some years ago when a patient was in intensive care and another doctor spoke to the surgeon in charge of the case and said: "I want an organ from him for transplant." The surgeon told him that wasn't going to happen as the patient would not die. And indeed, he did not. He recovered. But if everyone was considered as an organ bank, why bother to use intensive care on seriously injured people?

Worthwhile sacrifice, one life allowed to ebb away and so many others saved.

An opt out system may have more dangers than we have been told about.

 

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