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Published Date: 10 February 2008
A GOVERNMENT minister has prompted a fresh row over the place of Muslims in British society by warning that inbreeding in immigrant communities is causing a surge in birth defects.
Phil Woolas, an environment minister, said the issue was "the elephant in the room" which was never discussed because of its sensitivities.

But he said: "The issue we need to debate is first cousin marriage, whereby a lot of arranged marriages are
with first cousins and that produces lots of genetic problems in terms of disability."

Woolas's comments came as tensions rose yesterday over the claim by the Archbishop of Canterbury that the adoption of some parts of Muslim Sharia law in the UK was "unavoidable".

Woolas said his comments did not refer to all Muslims but only to those whose families originated in rural Pakistan. Up to half of marriages from such communities are thought to involve first cousins.

He spoke out after research found that British Pakistanis accounted for 3% of all births and they are responsible for one in three British children born with genetic illnesses.

"If you talk to any primary care worker, they will tell you that levels of disability among the… Pakistani population are higher than the general population. And everybody knows it's caused by first cousin marriage," he said.

Woolas said the practice of inbreeding was a "cultural" issue, not a religious one. He added: "The problem is that many of the parents themselves and many of the public spokespeople are themselves products of first cousin marriages."

He said that, as a result, the matter was often left alone. "It's a very sensitive issue. That's why it's not even a debate and people outside of these areas don't really know it exists."

Sensitivities over the place of Muslims in Britain are at a high this weekend following the claims by Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury.

Last night, those criticising Dr Williams were joined by his predecessor Lord Carey, and Cardinal Cormac Murphy O'Connor, the head of the Catholic Church in England.

Lord Carey said that accommodating any part of Sharia law in the UK would be "disastrous" for the nation.

However, the head of the Church of Scotland, the Right Reverend Sheilagh Kesting, promised to stand by him, claiming that the response to his comments had been tantamount to a "witch-hunt".

Kesting has written a letter of support to Williams, stating that she believed his views on Sharia law had been "wilfully misconstrued".

She added: "I am appalled by the way in which the response to your lecture has become a personal witch-hunt calling for your resignation."

Lord Carey, writing in a Sunday newspaper, said of Williams: "He has in my opinion overstated the case for accommodating Islamic legal codes.

"His conclusion that Britain will eventually have to concede some place in law for aspects of Sharia is a view I cannot share.

"There can be no exceptions to the laws of our land which have been so painfully honed by the struggle for democracy and human rights.

"His acceptance of some Muslim laws within British law would be disastrous for the nation."



The full article contains 528 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 10 February 2008 12:35 AM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Immigration and refugees
 
1

Canada,

southampton 10/02/2008 01:48:16
With Sheilagh Kesting's support of Williams it will be no time before the Church of Scotland is irrelevant as its southern counterpart. What would John Knox say?
2

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 10/02/2008 01:57:49
"Inbreeding",??
Don't know about you lot, but even that word, wants to make me...'Throw-Up'
(Where's my 'sick-bag'?)

I am NO.. 'spring-chicken' and in life, have come to tolerate much, much more than I used to.!

"Inbreeding" though.?...Where's my 'sick-bag'?
" birth defects" thats only the first problem!
3

,

10/02/2008 02:14:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
4

John Blackley,

Winter Garden, FL 10/02/2008 02:24:36
Quoth Phil Woolas, "And everybody knows it's (increased levels of child disability) caused by first cousin marriage".

Y'know, I have a problem with people beginning a sentence with 'everybody knows'. Too often in my life it's meant 'I really don't have a convincing argument or an facts'.

I don't doubt that there are first-cousin marriages in the Pakistani community. I don't doubt that first cousin marriages increase the risk of birth defects. Mr. Woolas' "everybody knows" statement does nothing to further the argument.
5

An Beal Bacht,

10/02/2008 02:47:20
The UK government is bringing in 600,000 immigrants per year. In twenty years that will be 12 million people. And of course they will have children. Get used to it - it's what you voted for.
6

!Ya basta!,

10/02/2008 03:48:27
Why has Woolas raised this issue? It is not exactly and pressing social problem. What is his agenda I wonder? However, given that it's temporarily on the agenda, can somebody first explain to me why so many arranged marriages have to be with first cousins? Surely Pakistani communities in the UK alone are large enough for this not to be the case. Or is there another cultural reason?

Williams' comments have clearly been distorted for political ends. I am an athiest and I also believe that Brits are generally a very tolerant people, it is one of our best qualities. Therefore I support his comments as multi-cultural living is the only viable future and we should, within limits, try to accomodate fellow citizens (who have equal rights) from different racial, cultural and religious origins.

And for the religious folk who will wail and cry most loudly against Williams, isn't a world of peace and harmony between all peoples what you all think heaven is anyway?

7

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 10/02/2008 03:57:33
# 6 get real ........... wake up and smell the burka
8

Whistle Berries,

Lake Stevens, Washington, USA 10/02/2008 04:02:08
There is one thing some people are forgetting. There are many “strange customs” associated with the Islamic or Muslim communities, and inbreeding might be one of them.
This is an interesting article. http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/02/08/iraq.women/index.html
It proves that many Islamic or Muslim men cannot contain themselves around females.
In the Muslim faith, women are marginalized, and treated as if they were cattle, or slaves, or maybe sex objects…
Keep in mind, the Islamic and Muslim radicals believe that if YOU are not of THEIR faith, you are an infidel. If you do not convert to Islamic or Muslim religion and belief, you should and will be put to death.
Also keep in mind, these people have a single purpose, a goal if you will, of wanting to rule the planet. It will be their way, or else.
Yes folks, it looks like it will come down to a "them vs. us" situation.
I do not believe the "founding fathers" had radical Islamic and Muslim religions in mind when establishing the concept of freedom of religion, or tolerance of other religions.
There is a distinct possibility of a religious war heading toward you, or your grandchildren, maybe even sooner than you might want to believe.
Interestingly, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, (think of it in terms as "the main petrol station"), a country where a majority of its leaders had education in the U.S. or U.K., is one of the main defenders and proponents of sharia law.
9

The Daleks,

10/02/2008 04:06:23
And er, who pays to support these disabled children throughout their lives.

Oh, that'll be the rest of us via our contributions to the NHS and Social Security funds.

You couldn't make this stuff up. The UK has gone barking mad.

10

,

10/02/2008 05:38:37
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11

fife runner,

10/02/2008 07:23:23
that is why it is illegal to marry close relatives. But in some communities i am sure due to cultural issues they get away with it.

Inbreeding does cause health problems over time, I am afraid to say as the pc brigade will shout loudest.
12

Sherly Mac Loren,

Baton Rouge 10/02/2008 07:32:20
Arch Bishop Rowen Williams public outbusrt deeeply hurt me. He is not eligible to lead church of England even One minute. He is a Bishop who does not Know Bibe. If he does not go we have to kick him out. But Violence is not our way but he has to go himself if he is a gentleman.
13

\seasider,

Saltcoats 10/02/2008 08:18:41
#7 re #6
Quite right Ross "None so blind as them that cannot see",don't know about smelling burkas though?
14

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 10/02/2008 08:50:27
The article could be refering to the condition 'microcephaly' which is very common in Pakistan. The poor sufferers are called ratboys. I think I saw an article that said up to 60% of marriages in Pakstan were between 1st cousins and that it wasn't far off that in Leeds. Just another sign that the Pakistani community doesn't do itself any favours. Its refusal to integrate is storing up all sorts of problems for all of us in the future.
15

Max Born,

10/02/2008 09:16:20
#4
Well said John. Your point is give further credibility by the comments of 3,5,7,9 and 10.no doubt we will be hearing more of the same as the day drags on when the usual suspects drag themselves out of their fleapits and Buckfast induced stupor.
16

overton,

balmedie 10/02/2008 09:18:42
How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science - the science against which it had vainly struggled - the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.
Winston Churchill 1899
17

Fairfax,

10/02/2008 09:41:33
John Blackley (4): "Y'know, I have a problem with people beginning a sentence with 'everybody knows'. "

One estimate is that some 55% of British-resident Pakistani marriages are between first cousins. See, for example,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/4442010.stm

As it points out in the same article, British Pakistanis account for 3% of all births but roughly 30% of genetic disorders associated with first cousin marriage.
18

Dismayed Old Soldier,

celle 10/02/2008 09:47:19
Enoch Powell,a very wise politician predicted much of what has come to be in UK. A few days ago Australia,s PM told his muslim immigrants to accept the country they wanted to enter,as it is - no changing of Australia,s Christian values and laws. If they did not they could do as all Australians have the right to do-GET OUT. UK now has Muslim Cousins apparently breeding deformed children. We a tax payers stump up retirement benefits for multiple Muslim wives.Latest ,we have a senior CoE Cleric,backed up by the Churh of Scotland,suggesting we take on parts of Sharia Law.There will be terrible consequences for the indiginous white British peoples if this goes further. Enough is enough.LET US ALL WAKE UP TO DANGER AHEAD!!!!! Come on Brown.Show us your mettle????????
19

Pilrig.,

Livingston 10/02/2008 09:53:55
19 - Jesus wants you for a sunbeam.
20

Pilrig.,

Livingston 10/02/2008 09:55:54
Marriage twixt 1st cousins to be made illegal ?
mair control freakery. My great aunt would have been done cos she married her 1st cousin, once removed. Too auld to have kids though.
21

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 10/02/2008 09:57:14
#18 Clarry

You very conveniently ignore facts just because they reflect badly on a minority community. If Pakistanis account for 3% of births, yet 30% of 1st cousin related birth defects then there's clearly a problem. Constantly crying racism when a minority follows some unsavoury social norms isn't doing anyone any good. Sometimes the majority can tell a minority they don't agree with the way they lead their lives. I'm sure you weren't averse to telling country people that hunting foxes wasn't an acceptable practice, although they claimed it was part of their 'heritage'.
22

Max Born,

10/02/2008 10:00:57
My first cousin was twice removed from licenced premises in one night!
23

Max Born,

10/02/2008 10:04:16
This is propagada thinly disguised as journalism,what next? "Lock up your pets before they are defiled by Muslims"
24

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 10/02/2008 10:06:49
#27 Max Born

Are the figures untrue though?

#28 Clarry

And your point is?
25

Dismayed Old Soldier,

celle 10/02/2008 10:14:57
Reference Clarry 21 You are many years behind reality about Whites Only as Aussie Immigrants (all aboard the steamer from UK to Sydney for TEN UK POUNDS) There is no colour bar in Aussie,or are these Muslims who are causing problems there white skinned? I doubt it. Their PMs point was ,accept Australia, as we have accepted you,but do not think you can bring your alien law and customs to take over. This was not racist but purely a strong voice protecting Australia own majority citizens.My point is that we who have been raised for centuries by our forefathers are in great danger of losing our rights and ways of living by pandering to a minority,ever incresing, who are new to our country and exercising more and more influence,often because of the stupidity of our political leaders and now the Church. I repeat,enough is enough!
26

albanman,

Edinburgh 10/02/2008 10:26:11
No.12 Sheryl in Baton Rouge - why should you (who are living in Louisiana) care about who leads the Church of England? He's nothing to do with you.

Sharia law is complex and far reaching and I believe it would be difficult, if not impossible, to have it working alongside Scots or English law; but that is NOT what the Archbishop said in any case. He put forward the idea that aspects of Sharia law might be brought into law in the U.K. The reality is that there are Sharia courts in all 4 countries of the U.K. and their contribution should be formally recognised. I'm not sure that it's a good idea, but it is worth debating. Whist not Anglican, I accept that Dr. Williams is a very intelligent and compassionate person; his views are well formulated - unlike much of the reaction from the media.
27

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 10/02/2008 10:43:31
#33 Clarry

The point is, this is a serious issue. It's to do with the insularity of the Pakistani community. That, given it is a signicant minority in our country, has consequences for all.
28

,

10/02/2008 10:51:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
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29

Gothic Rose,

10/02/2008 10:53:25
1#Canada.I suspect that,John Knox being, all for control and domination of women,would have something in common with,Sharia Law.Long Live Jenny Geddes!.
30

C U Jimmy,

10/02/2008 11:05:22
One law for Muslins, the thin edge of the wedge, a new law for, Rapists, Fox hunters, Trainspotters, Child Molesters, Drug dealers ? where will it stop.

For Seasider... the correct quotation is. There is none so blind as those who WILL not see.
31

\seasider,

Saltcoats 10/02/2008 11:47:45
#38
I stand corrected but you get the drift.
32

,

10/02/2008 12:21:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
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33

Vancouver,

Canada 10/02/2008 12:50:49
I feel there should be blood test before people get married like they do in some countries to prevent inbreeding, there are enough poor souls with Alzheimer's and Dementia without adding other mental disorders due to inbreeding.
I think it should be done world wide.
34

Haggis MacBagpipes,

Central Canada - ex Perth & Glesca' 10/02/2008 14:19:09
John Howard is no longer the Prime Minister of Australia...the guy that beat him has begun to change John Howard's laws of White Only immigrants for Australia. He states that was one of the promises he made when running for election and intends to keep that promise.
I have no problem with Pakistani's, etc., coming to Canada, but what I do have a problem with is that they will not intigrate...they expect us to change our ways and laws and our religions to suit them...in my meagre opinion, they can stick that idea where the sun doesn't shine!
I like the Canada I adopted and I was more than willing to abide by their laws and ways of life. I don't mind the Canadian Government opening the door for refugees, but I object to them coming here to change our way of life and living. The governments of the UK and Canada need to lay far better ground rules and laws that tell those people that we will never change to suit them, but they must change if they want to live in our countries. No if's, and's or but's.
If you are not prepared to change and integrate with us then stay where you are.
Cheers,
Haggis MacBagpipes™©
35

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 10/02/2008 14:25:38
Why are so many words wasted on these Islamic issues?

They do not listen - although they piously and pompously pronounce that they do - but merrily go on doing what they have been doing for centuries.

If they follow the Koran STRINGENTLY and according to "the book" this involves polygamy, beheadings, cutting off of hands, paedophilia, holy wars, fatwas, ritual rape of wives who are the innocent victims of adultery by their husbands, and a host of other historical rules and precedents laid down by "the prophet" that are inhumane and an abomination to civilised word and deed.
36

GMCD,

dndy 10/02/2008 14:35:11
If 1. a third of all birth defecvts are in the pakistani community and 2. this can be traced back to cousin-marriages then this guy chould be congratulated for telling the truth.
If neither 1 or 2 is true or only 1 is true then he deserves all the hassle he is getting for making an assumption based on race....
37

Fairfax,

10/02/2008 14:51:52
GMCD (44): "If neither 1 or 2 is true or only 1 is true then he deserves all the hassle he is getting for making an assumption based on race...."

His points are not new, nor is it difficult to find further corroboration; see, for example,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/4442010.stm

The key point is that some 55% of Pakistani marriages in Britain are between first cousins, and this has been the norm for several generations: the consequences for genetic disorders are then obvious. As it points out in the same article, British Pakistanis account for 3% of all births but roughly 30% of these genetic disorders.

All point concerning racism is a difficult point to answer: the problem is, after all, at root genetic. One further point is that this is primarily a problem in England, since the ethnic minority population of Scotland is tiny.
38

Fairfax,

10/02/2008 14:52:57
Fairfax (45): "All point concerning"

My typo: this should read "The point concerning".
39

\seasider,

Saltcoats 10/02/2008 14:56:32
The article states the figures came from research, Mr Woolas seems to be merely pointing that out.
40

yoric,

10/02/2008 15:41:43
This is surely an issue for the Muslim community to sort out, Muslims very rarely breed outside of their own community.
Anyway theyv'e had inbreeding in Texas USA for generations, look at George W Bush.
41

Hickory,

US 10/02/2008 16:34:03
#8 you are spot on.
42

Slasher McGurk,

10/02/2008 16:46:54
The only advantage brought by inbreeding is the fact that when the polar ice caps melt and the world floods, the spawn of inbreeding can swim with great efficiency, using their web feet and hands.
43

keystone,

eau claire wi usa 10/02/2008 16:48:07
No doubt conducting inbreeding marriages will be next on Rowan Williams agenda, as he continues to work tirelessly for the destruction of the U.K., and its replacement by an Islamic state. And the proof that inbreeding results very often in serious mental defects shoule be no problem to Rowan, for his insane rantings for Sharia law, more than proves that he himself suffers from severe mental disorder.
44

Dismayed Old Soldier,

celle 10/02/2008 17:26:20
52 clarrie. I really did not want to say anymore,however,if Brits want to drink-alcohol,smoke ,gamble and even a dad to dance at his daughter,s wedding,what is abnormal?. If Clarrie does not approve and prefers the muslim ways of life then she should feel free to go to a strictly sharia muslim country-FOR EVER,but leave we normal Brits to our own traditional ways. She could take the Arch Bishop and all the potjher dissatisfied British resident Muslims with her.
45

,

10/02/2008 18:28:00
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46

Pilrig.,

Livingston 10/02/2008 18:51:13
41 - mair control freakery.
47

Pilrig.,

Livingston 10/02/2008 18:56:38
The Church of England was created by Henry VIII's lust for Anne Boleyn.
On the subject of inbreeding, Henry's first wife, Catherine of Aragon, was the widow of his elder brother Arthur. Didn't stop Hal from sh*gg*ng Kate though.
When it comes to inbreeding ye cannae beat the Royals and the aristocracy.
48

,

10/02/2008 19:09:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
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49

Fairfax,

10/02/2008 19:29:31
clarry (53): "Professor Dawkins says that God ia a 'vindictive, bloodthirsty, ethnic cleanser in his book 'The God Delusion'."

I broadly agree with his view. However, why do you believe that it is racist to draw attention to the negative genetic consequences of generations of first cousin marriages? Pakistani medics have attempted to draw attention to these problems within Pakistan, working to provide inexpensive genetic tests to identify some of the more extreme consequences, such as microenphaly. If you wish to learn more of these cases, then geneticist Armand Marie Leroi, at Imperial College, London, has published on them in his excellent book "Mutants", as well as in several articles such as this one:

http://armandleroi.com/media/pdf/AML_journ017.pdf
50

Fairfax,

10/02/2008 19:32:32
Pilrig (57): "On the subject of inbreeding, Henry's first wife, Catherine of Aragon, was the widow of his elder brother Arthur."

She certainly was. However, whilst arguably contrary to Canon Law (as Henry argued), it is not inbreeding: Catherine of Aragon was not closely related to Arthur or to Henry. If you want to find examples of inbreeding, then it might be more useful to consider the famous Hapsburg chin, or the haemophilia cases in the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha line.
51

John Blackley,

Winter Garden, FL 10/02/2008 21:27:53
#17 Fairfax - nice misquote you slipped in there.

My comment was about the use of words chosen by this unstatesman-like politico and not at all about the likelihood of child defects arising from first cousin marriage.

Oh, and the misquote? The article does not say a thing about the number of birth defects arising from Pakistani first cousin marriages. The article says, "British Pakistanis accounted for 3% of all births and they are responsible for one in three British children born with genetic illnesses".
52

Amparo de Glasgow,

10/02/2008 21:39:51
SIMPLE SOLUTION HERE ...!!!

Shut down all the Mosques and Mad-rassas
... now
... now !!!!



If they want to be backward
... fine ...


But Britain is a secular
... democracy !!!


Integrate and become Atheists ...
... or p*ss off to Saudi or Iran !!!
53

Fairfax,

10/02/2008 22:53:45
John Blackley (61): "Oh, and the misquote? The article does not say a thing about the number of birth defects arising from Pakistani first cousin marriages."

Information on birth defects is, however, available elsewhere: I gave a reference to a relevant BBC article in the earlier quote. Since I have not misquoted you (or the article), I do not see how my reply can be described as a misquote.

I agree that this politician's words were possibly tactless, but cannot see how any public airing of this issue would be anodyne. Nor is it restricted to Britain and Pakistan. To take merely one example, here is a Norwegian article discussing consanguineuous genetic problems in Pakistani marriages:

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/145/5/439.pdf
54

Fairfax,

10/02/2008 23:02:28
John Blackley (61): "The article says, "British Pakistanis accounted for 3% of all births and they are responsible for one in three British children born with genetic illnesses"."

I now see why you have accused me of a misquote: I have attributed the excess genetic illness of Pakistani children to consanguineous marriages, which is not stated explicitly in the original article. I must admit that I thought the inference so obvious that nothing more needed to be said. Indeed, if this extraordinarily high genetic error rate were not merely due to consanguineous marriage, then it would be apparent in non-consanguineous Pakistani marriages. However, I have already provided a reference to a Norwegian study finding this to not be the case in my previous post.
55

The Daleks,

11/02/2008 04:14:47
Clarry, are you the product of a first cousin marriage?
56

Fairfax,

11/02/2008 13:19:25
Clarry (67): "59 Fairfax

No wonder you enjoy reading the Imperialist 'Mutant'
Your are one."

Leroi's "Mutants" includes accounts of Pakistani researchers looking for genetic markers for the worst consequence of consanguineous marriage, i.e. microencephaly. Are you accusing those Pakistani doctors and geneticists of fascism also?
57

Fairfax,

11/02/2008 14:27:23
Clarry (68): "I am suggesting that most Muslim cause little strife in this country and the vast majority are hard working , law biding citizens. Possibly more so than the rest of the population."

The majority of Muslims are law abiding, but their employment rate is easily the highest of any ethnic group; see, for example,

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=979
58

Sammy25,

29/02/2008 20:45:35
Why Muslims AGAIN? Go ahead, stir it up or the Muslims AGAIN! Can't anybody say anything about Buddhists, Hindus, Jews or even have a good old fashioned dig at the Catholics for a change ..

 

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