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SNP's budget hangs in the balance as opponents refuse to strike deal

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Published Date: 28 January 2009
THE Scottish budget was on a knife-edge last night after opposition parties threatened to vote it down.
Meetings were taking place late into the night and were due to continue today as John Swinney, the finance secretary, tried desperately to reach agreements with enough parties.

As the heat was turned up, Mr Swinney's spokesman went on the offensive, accusing the other parties of "playing politics", and he warned that Scotland would lose out on £1.8 billion of public spending if the budget did not go through.

He said: "Ministers are determined to get this budget through for the good of Scotland."

And – on the day the third-quarter GDP figures for the UK will be published and are expected to reveal more bad news – he warned that the budget failing to go through would seriously affect the chances of Scotland exiting the recession quickly.

But late yesterday, he had failed to win the definite support of any party, with the Greens possibly holding the crucial votes.

However, they made it clear that they were unhappy with the response to their demands for a £1 billion scheme of providing free insulation for households over the next ten years.

A Greens spokesman last night confirmed that unless they are offered more than the £10 million a year believed to be on the table, the party's two MSPs will vote against the budget.

They believe a second budget brought forward before the deadline at the end of March might prove more profitable.

Even the Conservatives, who are still expected to back the budget, were threatening that if Mr Swinney did not give in to their £200 million of demands then they would vote against.

Annabel Goldie, the Conservative leader, said: "If the SNP government meets our demands this year, then tens of thousands of businesses will see rates scrapped altogether. But more needs to be done. That's why the Scottish Conservatives are calling on the SNP to support our proposals … to help town centres with a regeneration fund."

The SNP has claimed it has made a substantial offer to Labour to win its backing.

However, the Scottish Labour leader Iain Gray yesterday insisted his MSPs would vote against the budget, which he said was not good enough to tackle the current economic problems. Labour MSPs were due to meet before the debate at 12:30pm today to decide their final position, but the final vote will take place at 5pm.

Mr Gray said: "Unfortunately, Alex Salmond has stuck his head in the sand. Despite a series of meetings, we regret that the response from finance secretary John Swinney continues to fall short of what needs to be done."

He added: "Nonetheless, our door remains open in the sincere hope they will now consider their decision and act in the interests of the Scottish people and the economy."

A Labour spokesman added that "no games were being played" and that Labour would act in Scotland's best interests.

A spokesman for the Scottish Government last night refused to discuss the possibility of having to prepare a second budget.


More horsetrading or downfall of government? How row could pan out

IF THE budget falls, then the Scottish Government will have to come up with a new one. The budget does not need to be passed until the end of March, which is the completion of the financial year.

It is believed that this can be done in a truncated way because most of the discussions have already taken place.

In addition, it could allow opposition parties to hijack the budget in the new first stage where they are allowed to put down amendments. However, this would require them to come to an agreement between themselves which most observers believe is unlikely.

If nothing can be agreed by then, the current financial year's budget will continue for next year, potentially taking £1.8 billion out of Scottish spending and forcing a pay freeze for public sector staff.

At this point, the lost money from previous months will be put back into the Scottish budget. The SNP has also hinted at repeating last year's threat of resigning if it cannot get its budget passed. In this case, there will only be an election if parliament cannot decide on a new government within 28 days.

Labour has already indicated it would be willing to put up Iain Gray as an alternative First Minister.


So what does each party want?

Labour


LABOUR has put forward a 15-point plan which it says must be significantly met before it backs the budget.

The headline item is money for 23,400 new apprenticeships, which Labour believes are essential to prepare Scotland for the years after the recession.

On top of this, Labour wants more money for Pace schemes, designed to go into companies where redundancies will take place for training and support.

It is also asking for £50 million to be spent on regenerating town centres.

Added to that, it wants the NHS to get its full allocation of £3.9 billion, instead of the £3.25 billion the SNP plans to give health boards.

Conservatives

THE Conservatives have been coy about what they want from this Budget, insisting that their first priority would be to save measures on extra policing and business rates cuts that they won last year.

Yesterday, they claimed that they are pushing for £200 million worth of measures, including last year's concessions, plus money for town-centre regeneration and guaranteed week-long outdoor education trips for schoolchildren.

They have also briefed that they want the Scottish Government to adopt a bed-by-bed checking system to stop major outbreaks of hospital-acquired infections, such as C difficile and MRSA.

Lib Dems

THE Liberal Democrats want a reduction in income tax of 2p, using the "tartan tax" variable powers of the Scottish Parliament.

The SNP have always ruled this out, not least because it would mean an £800 million reduction in the budget.

They have also claimed that it is too late to introduce a 2p cut for next year's budget because it takes almost a year to get the collection changes required in place.

The Lib Dems have maintained that the only measure available to MSPs that can really help Scotland out of the recession is an income tax cut. Negotiations between the two parties has been restricted to one 20-minute meeting.

Greens

THE Greens have put in an ambitious bid for a £1 billion programme spread over ten years for free insulation for every household that needs it across Scotland.

The scheme takes away all the boundaries for people applying for insulation schemes, saves them money and reduces household carbon emissions.

Independent

Independent MSP Margo MacDonald wants special capital city funding for Edinburgh. She has also been holding out for more cash for affordable housing for both Edinburgh and Glasgow.

Page 1 of 1

 
1

webwise,

Scotland 27/01/2009 21:52:53
Should prove interesting tomorrow, will Labour and the Libs both vote against?

Watch out for a 'slip of the finger' as one of their MSP's makes a 'mistake' and supports the budget!!

Incidently, does anyone really know why the Libs are voting against?
2

,

28/01/2009 00:23:47
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3

,

28/01/2009 00:29:24
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4

SNP hypocrisy,

28/01/2009 00:33:32
Since making threats of resigning if their budget wasn't passed, the SNP have since stopped mentioning this. Could it be that they finally realised just how stupid and child-like they sound?

It would be interesting to see how the SNP would squirm and weasel out of such a promise if the other parties 'called their bluff' and voted their budget down.

With this level of SNP childish blackmail it is really quite astounding that Swinney's spokesman accused the other parties of "playing politics".

Come on Annabel, kick them in the pants...
5

SNP hypocrisy,

28/01/2009 00:39:14
2 Flywheel, Shyster and Flywheel, WS, SSC & NP,Rufusville 28/01/2009 00:17:59
"I hope that the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party has the guts to abstain.

It's time for a vote of no confidence at the Ballot Box."

All it takes is guts which would earn the Tories a lot of respect across Scotland. There comes a time when the good of the nation has to be put first. Although I think it would be preferable if the Tories voted against the budget rather than simply abstain. No one respects abstainers.
6

UK007,

28/01/2009 00:45:05
#5 You are spot on with your comment:- Come on Annabel, kick them in the pants.......but you forgot to add and Iain Gray is waiting to become an alternative First Minister.
7

,

28/01/2009 00:50:30
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8

frank mcbride,

lusitania 28/01/2009 00:53:44
#2, Flywheel.

I, for one, would be pleased to see the SNP Government go to the country to achieve an endorsement of their performance on behalf of the people of Scotland.

There is no doubt, in mind, that the SNP would achieve a better result than they did in May 2007. I believe the NuLabTory/LibDum Alliance know this also.

However, I despair of the Unionist Alliance because, being so blinded by their hatred of the idea of Independence, they may, through wishful thinking rather than through logic, believe that they can styme the movement towards Independence, by either winning a GE (extremely doubtful) or returning Scotland to full Westminster control through another NuLabTory/LibDum Coalition.

NuLabTory has no interest in the welfare of Scotland, as has been adequately proved by its actions on finance, nuclear, infrastructure, CT inter alia. And, their hatred of the idea of Scottish Independence is paramount in all they do.

The NuLabTory/LibDum Alliance may well be perverse enough to vote against the Common Weal of Scotland in the deluded notion that they are saving the Union.
9

frank mcbride,

lusitania 28/01/2009 00:58:44
#5, Hypocracy.

Stop your childish dribbling.

When did the SNP Government threaten to resign?...........oh yes, 2008.
10

,

28/01/2009 01:10:43
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11

Brian Hill,

28/01/2009 01:17:46
The Greens are playing with fire here. Siding with Labour to bring down this budget and possibly this Government is not likely to go down well with the voters.

Their job is to pressure then support this Government anything else is too risky for them at this stage.
12

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

28/01/2009 01:28:55
It's pretty simple: do we want a budget or not? The parliament is elected by proportional representation. It's not like Westminster where the government has a majority and it's budget can only be brought down if the opposition gets the government's own MPs to vote against it, which would only happen if there was something really objectionable about it and there was something really important at stake.
at Holyrood, the opposition could vote the government down every single week if they wanted-but what would be the point? They would be much better negotiating and getting their ideas into the budget.
Labour created this system, you'd think they'd know this.
13

subrosa,

28/01/2009 01:36:17
# 5
'Since making threats of resigning if their budget wasn't passed, the SNP have since stopped mentioning this.'

You stuck in a time warp? That was last year you know c 365 days ago. Honestly, can't even have a decent argument with you at all because your facts fall down at the first fence.
14

subrosa,

28/01/2009 01:37:20
Will be interesting to watch the debate. I expect it'll be on holyroodlive.
15

subrosa,

28/01/2009 03:18:46
I see the Times have written another article about the Alex Salmond/Kofi Annan stushie. Red faces all round for the Times and the unionists. No apologies though.

http://subrosa-blonde.blogspot.com/
16

Ewan Randall,

28/01/2009 04:44:28
Why doesn't the SNP call the other parties bluff and resign?

Wouldn't it be better for Scotland if a single party had a clear mandate for running this dedvolved administration?
17

Angleland Isover,

28/01/2009 06:31:47
The liblabs have had their day putting together a budget that's why no one takes them serious now.
18

steve 1511,

aberdeen 28/01/2009 06:32:30
can you just imagine the gibbering eejit gray of the lybour sleaze and corruption party as first minister,a headless chicken runs around westminster,and we would have another headless chicken running around holyrood
19

Longdirk Maceth,

NZ 28/01/2009 07:10:29
Looks like the English are hacked off that we get to much money, so if they don't like it........???

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotland/Scots-get-too-much-cash.4919257.jp#3695076
20

Longdirk Maceth,

NZ 28/01/2009 07:13:22
SO it's ok that English MP's and PM's run Scotland into the ground, but it's not fair that Scots get to hold office and pass laws concerning England?


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/simonheffer/4325471/Scots-have-brought-Britain-to-its-knees.html
21

Longdirk Maceth,

NZ 28/01/2009 07:16:37
And how much did this cost Scotland???

http://www.propertycommunity.com/property-in-the-uk/110-is-new-wembley-the-great-hope-for-the-future-or-a-great-white-elephant.html
22

Longdirk Maceth,

NZ 28/01/2009 07:20:43
3 Sam the man the snp LAUGH AT most,
Hey sh!t for brains, care to comment?

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/scotland/Lord-Foulkes-caught-in-54000.4825769.jp
23

Angleland Isover,

28/01/2009 07:25:22
If Scotland had been Independent it would have been great to see a so called Scott returning the favour and running england into the ground. You couldn't buy that kind of irony.
24

Duncan in Edinburgh,

28/01/2009 08:02:42
The SNP oppose a 2p cut in income tax because it would cause an £800m hole in the budget - yet that is almost exactly the size of the hole that will be created by their idiotic LIT plan!

The SNP are exposed - their entire policy set is designed simply to drive wedges between Scotland and the rest of the UK to further their aims of independence by making people think we are being badly treated.

Shame on the SNP.
25

TWC,

28/01/2009 08:03:27
This is close enough to result in an election after they fail to chose an alternative FM.
I think it would be a good thing to try for a majority party.
It would also give us a chance to comment on the UK economy, Calman and Scottish policies. I'm all for it.
26

Longdirk Maceth,

nz 28/01/2009 08:15:00
Duncan, B@llocks!
27

Longdirk Maceth,

NZ 28/01/2009 08:24:24
Duncan, Shame on the SNP, why is that exactly, could it be because of the following?

Freezing Council Tax
Introducing a Local Income Tax System based on ABILITY TO PAY
Local Government Agreement giving Greater Accountability
Forth & TA Bridge Tolls Scrapped
Making a decision on the New Forth Road Bridge
More Police on the Street
Record Funds to cap Public Transport Fare
Carbon Index on Future Budgets
New Drugs Rehabilitation Bill
Cutting Small Business Rates
New Money for Community Climate Challenge Fund
Extra Captial Spending for Edinburgh
New Health Screening Programmes
Phasing out prescription charges
Reducing hospital waiting times
Tackling Poverty Fund of £145m.
Dealing with Alcohol Misuse with tough new measures
Dealing with Smoking, Obesity & Heath in Scotland's Young
Promoting Europe's Largest Wind Farms & New Hydrogen Plant
Giving the go-ahead for Scotland first commercial Tidal project.
Increasing Energy Efficiency Funds
Reduced class sizes in Early Years
50% more nursery places for 3-4 Year Olds
Extending Free School Meals Pilot
Universities and Colleges Investment of £1.7bn
New Partnerhsip between Universities & Government
Grant Support for Students of £509m.
Scrapping the Endowment Fee
Improved Rail Links, Giving the Go Ahead for the Borders Railway
Dualling Sections of the A9
Increasing Social Housing through HomeSTAKE
Control over Fisheries Conservation Measures
Supporting the Scottish Fishing Industry with Action Plan & Funding
Extending NHS Screening Programs for Men
Setting up the Scottish Futures Trust
Reducing Classes for P1-2 to 18
Introducing PiP's, saving Buyers £7M annually
Reforming Health Boards
Introducing tighter Smoking Advertisement Rules

let's compare that with Labour shall we

100% increase in basic rate Income Tax
Pensions obliterated during a series of raids by Brown
Pension Stocks annihilated by a Crisis exacerbated by Brown's Polices
£12Billion squandered on a 2% VAT cut on Party F
28

Longdirk Maceth,

Aberdeen 28/01/2009 08:25:08
2

100% increase in basic rate Income Tax
Pensions obliterated during a series of raids by Brown
Pension Stocks annihilated by a Crisis exacerbated by Brown's Polices
£12Billion squandered on a 2% VAT cut on Party Frocks....
Bailing out the Fat Cats
Illegal Wars
Backroom Deals on Abortion Rights
Sky High Council Tax
Prison Population out of control
Methadone Programme instead of proper Rehabilitation
Binge Drinking out of Control
Abject Failure to deal with anti-social behaviour
Airguns remain a serious threat in Scotland
Welfare Reforms welcomed by Tories
Privatisation of NHS and City Academies
Post Office closures and expected Privatisation
Party Sleaze / Dodgy Donations / Cash for Honours
Dodgy Arms deals with Middle East
Abolishing Scottish Regiments / Poorly Equipping our Soldiers
UK Government withholding over £1BILLION from Scots.
10 year Transport Plan Total Failure
New Nuclear Power at expense of Renewables
£250 BILLION on renewing Trident System
Humiliating defeat over 42 pre charge detention
Actively deregulated Financial Services
Presided over the biggest Personal Debt crisis ever known.
Poverty Gap Trend Increasing
29

John Cameron,

St Andrews 28/01/2009 08:31:05
I think it is terrible so many Scots do not trust nice Mr Salmond and will not pass his jolly clever budget. Don't they know he was once a very important economist with the Royal Bank of Scotland? With such a pedigree, his every notion should be passed on the nod and all doubt should be dispelled.
30

TWC,

28/01/2009 08:45:19
Well I think it is great that there could be an election in Scotland to stop all the bickering on the posts about who is winning the battle between the Nats & New Labour.
BTW I think the Nats will do better and improve their standing but will they do as well as they need to?
Still it would be an improvement if they had a less formidable opposition to defeat to govern without making too easy for them.
31

john z,

edinburgh 28/01/2009 08:49:17
The budget is a very important matter, especially considering what is happening to the Scottish economy, and people losing jobs.

I do hope that EVERY MSP who votes against it has a very good reason for doing so, as the people involved will be held to account by the people of Scotland.

The reason of "we dinnae like the SNP" is not adequate.

Not sure why the Lib Dems are going down the road of voting against it - other than so they can side with the London Labour Party. I just hope they can justify bringing down the Scottish budget.
32

brownlie,

28/01/2009 08:50:48
34 John Cameron

Excellent post which outlines the position perfectly. I'm sure most intelligent Scots will agree with you. Well done!
33

SNP hypocrisy,

28/01/2009 08:57:35
UK007, No doubt Iain Gray would be the alternative First Minister (but not necessarily in a power-sharing deal).

Annabel Goldie and the Scottish Conservative and Unionists however currently hold the power to say whether the SNP budget makes it or not. I for one hope they do the decent thing and kick the SNP in the pants.

Besides which if a coalition government came out of this, it might be quite different to what we are all used to. Nothing and no pact, should be ruled out when the SNP aim to damage the very fabric, structure and constitution of our British nation. Sometimes things have to be done for the good of the nation, and in Parliament to allow bills to pass. Salmond's had his shot, time he stepped aside.
34

,

28/01/2009 08:58:48
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35

Boab1,

28/01/2009 08:58:52
#33, yes, you're right enough. We should thank London for our pocket money. We should thank them for being able to spend future money in England now to boost the economy but denying the same right to the Scottish government. We should thank London for compensating English farmers for the damage done during the foot and mouth and bluetongue but refused to give equivalent amounts to Scottish farmers despite this being a reserved matter.

I could go on. We just have so much to be thankful for. Meanwhile we hear Labour are going to vote against the budget because they don't believe it will be of benefit to the economy. Having seen what a hash they've made of the UK one, I think we can ignore their concerns.
36

SNP hypocrisy,

28/01/2009 09:00:15
10. frank mcbride, actually the SNP repeated their threat to resign about 3 or 4 weeks ago. Google it why don't you, because I can't be bothered bringing you up to par. Nor can I be bothered reading about your child-like political party.
37

Boab1,

28/01/2009 09:01:26
If the government is brought down the aftermath would be interesting. I'm sure the Tories would never support Labour forming the government. I don't know if the Lib Dems would be willing to power share with Labour. Again we could find the Greens and Margo McDonald holding sway.
38

,

28/01/2009 09:03:47
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39

,

28/01/2009 09:03:51
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40

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 28/01/2009 09:04:38
#34 & #37
Alex Salmond was an oil economist with the bank long before the days when they started dabbling in derivatives, etc.
Maybe if he had still been there they would have listened to his advice as he still seems to have little truck with the gambling involved in their new style of trading, which brought about the present disaster.
Scottish banks were respected for their prudent management and when they deserted that to follow the herd they lost it.
If they return to prudent independent banking for a few years then their good reputation will return.
We still need strict regulation of gambling, whether in the City or casino, there is no difference between them. Countries which have strict regulation in the banking sector are not suffering from the so called global credit crunch as much as the UK.
41

Daveunderwater,

28/01/2009 09:12:23
#32

Unlike Gordon Brown whos only economic experience was his post as treasurer at the student's union I believe..
42

SNP hypocrisy,

28/01/2009 09:17:07
32. Aye, and pigs will fly, Elvis can be found selling Pizza's in Morningside, and Kofi Annan is now at Salmond's beck and call.
43

SNP hypocrisy,

28/01/2009 09:20:30
44. No Gordon Brown was Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Britain prospered under his leadership in that role.

Are you completely ignorant, foreign, or just reluctant to give the man his due? My money is on you being all three.
44

Miss H,

28/01/2009 09:22:04
5 If the Budget is not passed the SNP have no option but to resign. I don't think they would do that immediately - they would probably take a second go at getting it through but if the other parties vote against it the Government will have to resign and a new Budget would have to be put together by whoever formed the administration by the start of the next financial year. It would be disastrous if that did not happen. Local authorities, health boards and other public agencies would stand to lose almost 2 billion pounds if they had to work with last year's allocation and we would lose all the accelerated capital spending as well.
45

Daveunderwater,

28/01/2009 09:22:34
Bailout Brown is at it again bailing out the Motor Industry

Pity Labour didn't do the same with Hillman a few years back
46

Miss H,

28/01/2009 09:24:29
40 Well that's the point isn't it? What other administration could be formed?
47

SNP hypocrisy,

28/01/2009 09:29:06
49. Almost any coalition you like. Since the SNP have only one more MSP than Labour, Labour could go into coalition with any other party or parties and form a government. The SNP currently only hold the power because the other parties tolerated/allowed them to, but the SNP only have 47 seats out 129. They never did have a mandate to govern, and never did represent the majority.
48

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 09:35:19


36. HEADLINE: TORIES& GREENS VOTE LABOUR INTO POWER

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Patrick Harvie supporting the party that will build a third runway at Heathrow

The Tories supporting Labour 1 year out from a General Election.

gee us peace ya numptie
49

SNP hypocrisy,

28/01/2009 09:35:24
51. I have only one thing to say Glenrothes! Don't count your chickens. The SNP's days are numbered.
50

SNP hypocrisy,

28/01/2009 09:36:31
52. Pardon?
51

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 09:37:25

32. Are there ANY economists in Scottish Labour's ranks?

Is it any wonder they've been pisssing block grant increases against the wind for 8 years

52

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 09:38:13
54. Esenpee Hippo

Yes I will this time, but isn't it time you had your weak bladder seen to?
53

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 09:42:05

57. They themselves make a mockery of what they did in office.

It's also becoming abundantly clear that they haven't move don with policy changes as promised by Grey, I suspect they're waiting to after 2010.


54

Rodster,

Glasgow 28/01/2009 09:43:04
The Scottish government should stick to its guns , it has done well by us so far in its tenure.
The Unionists , so hate Scotland and the SNP that they crave the power at any cost.
Let Labour and a Unionist cabal take over till 2011 ,let us remind the Scottish electorate how compliant to Westminster our Labourite and Liberal members are .
Then wait for the benefit at the next election.
While Maddox and all the other Unionist puppet journos write about the SNP picking fights with Westminster , the Scots are not as stupid as they think they know exactly who is picking the fights and it is not the SNP government
55

salmondella,

UK 28/01/2009 09:44:52
The present balance of power within Scottish politics demands compromise from all sides. But nationalism and the aspirations of independence, with the modest programme of the SNP ( even the Lib Dems are more radical) means that the SNP are not offering policies that are that much different from Labour and the Tories, its dullsville really.
56

Ewan Randall,

28/01/2009 09:45:51
(#43) – (Auld Twa) – What position is an oil economist in the hierarchy of a banking organization to tell or even advise the board or managers on how to run their banks?

Do you really believe the banks would have listened?

Do you not think that short selling should be the aspect that should be banned from trading on the stock exchange, as both our big banks suffered from this practice?

Are they considered Scottish owned banks anymore?

A part from banning short selling and maybe bailing out banks who loan to those who don’t have collateral, what would you like to see being stopped in the city?

In the long term which countries have done better in their development and creativity, and have had the most influence globally, nations like Great Britain and America, or those other countries you talk about?
57

SNP hypocrisy,

28/01/2009 09:46:51
59. Nonsense. The SNP have not delivered on just too many election promises, and Salmond could not even bring himself to commit to his own promises when pressed by Jeremy Paxman.

As for the recession that is currently going on worldwide, the SNP might like to blame it all on so & so, but it's just pathetic and no one in the world is kidded on with that rubbish. The SNP are very child-like and even in 'government' all they can do is play opposition politics. Frankly it's rubbish.
58

SNP hypocrisy,

28/01/2009 09:49:03
BTW, for anyone who doesn't realise it yet, several of the posters in the last few messages are actually the work of the same person. It is very sad that the SNP supporters have to play this game of switching ID's and talking the same nonsense.
59

Grahamski,

Falkirk 28/01/2009 09:51:06
62
'...the SNP have acheived more for Scotland in the past 20 months than the previous Lib/Lab administration did in their whole term in office.'
So, it's not just the leader of the SNP who suffers from the Walter Mitty complex.....
The sad truth of the matter is that after all the big bills have been paid the Holyrood administration have a miniscule amount of money to spend at their discretion. The budget will go through and this administration will lumber on until one of Mr Salmond's lies catches up with him...
60

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 09:52:53

64. It;s all unravelling esenpee hippo.

Your narrative of global recession isn't borne out when we have The European Commission predicting a deeper recession in Britain than that in most other EU countries. It suggested British growth of minus 2.8 per cent in 2009 compared with minus 1.8 per cent across the whole EU.

Can you explain that to us?



PS

“I want us to do even more to encourage the risk takers”

That was Gordon Brown in 2004 talking to City Bankers
61

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 09:53:37

65...It is very sad that the SNP supporters have to play this game of switching ID's and talking the same nonsense.....

Cue Grahamski
62

Rodster,

Glasgow 28/01/2009 09:54:04
Grahamski the horses ass welcome ,how many monikers are you using today?
63

SNP hypocrisy,

28/01/2009 09:54:19
62. On the back of the utter humilation that Alex Salmond and the SNP recieved in the Glenrothes byelection, the opposition parties are likely to be relishing the chance to go to the ballot box and take the SNP on. By tactical voting and party deals the SNP could in fact be wiped in Holrood.

Next time there will be no 150,000 legally cast votes going uncounted or boxes of ballot papers disappearing over the side of a boat into the sea.

If you believe otherwise then you are either considerably self-deluded, misled, or just plain out of touch.
64

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 09:54:26


66. HEADLINE: GRAHAMSKI ARGUES FOR FULL FISCAL INDEPENDENCE

65

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 09:57:02

70. esenpee hippo

"...Glenrothes byelection, the opposition parties are likely to be relishing the chance to go to the ballot box and take the SNP...>"

Eh the Liberals and the Tories were wiped out, the SNP got soemthing like a 7% swing.

Labour got a load of posters form frightened pensioners being promised the world form a Primeminister on the edge of collapse.

I wonder how those pensioenrs will vote the next time once the Post Office is privatised and Labour refuse to spread the cost of the forth road bridge....

There may be trouble ahead.


66

Grahamski,

Falkirk 28/01/2009 09:57:49
71
The nats get their wires crossed......Again!!!!!
67

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 09:58:30


70. Labour got 5000 votes more than they did in 2005.

Electoral Fraud or scare tactics and frightening old ladies?

68

SNP hypocrisy,

28/01/2009 10:00:47
72. You lost. Salmond claimed the SNP would win.

The SNP lost, and Salmond ran off before the scheduled Newsnight interview. :-D

There were actually 3 byelections that day (two council), and Labour won all three. Bring it on!
69

Vivas,

Edinburgh 28/01/2009 10:01:37
Part of me would love to see SLAB take over the reins for the next 2 years of Scottish government, with Gray taking his orders direct from Superman.

Fast forward 2 years to the Scottish elections. By that time Superman has been dumped out on his ers by Cameron, Scotland is stuck with a Conservative government it didn't vote for ... and Gray and co. have had 2 years to pheck up royally.

Go on SLAB, I dare you...in the words of Wendy "bring it on" :-)))
70

SNP hypocrisy,

28/01/2009 10:03:21
Wardog, you are a very bad loser. I have reported your unsubstantiated accusations of electoral fraud. Have a nice day.
71

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 10:06:13


77. Esenpee Hippo

What has Lindsey Roy done so far to 'save the post offices'

There may be trouble ahead.


72

John S,

28/01/2009 10:09:57
Has Iain Gray got any bottle or is he all mouth ?
Iain Gray or any MSP can present a motion of no confidence in the First Minister, if the First Minister lost a vote of confidence by a simple majority (ie. more than 50%), he must then resign.
Parliament would then have 28 days to elect a successor. If no new First Minister is elected then the Presiding Officer would ask for Parliament to be dissolved.
73

A Crofter,

Western Isles 28/01/2009 10:13:05
'As the heat was turned up, Mr Swinney's spokesman went on the offensive, accusing the other parties of "playing politics" ....'

They're all just "playing" at Stonyrood!

And why, exactly, are the Greens still supporting any of these Trumnplicking Phillistines?
74

Vivas,

Edinburgh 28/01/2009 10:14:13
Well it's an interesting prospect :-)

From the perspective of high-stakes poker...Gray and co. can certainly win this hand if they really want to. But if they do, then they won't even have their underwear left to gamble with in 2 years time.

...Gray takes his order from Superman, and having saved the world and saved the banks, then saving Scotland is surely a doddle !!!!!
75

salmondella,

UK 28/01/2009 10:16:35
#75 Yes, bring on a referendum, the sooner the better. And the result, which I am sure, will be against an "independent" Scotland will stop the present devisive programme of the NATS which is dragging down Scotland during a time when we all need to be united.

After the referendum is out of the way we can unite with the rest of the UK in fighting for socialist policies under a new leadership for Labour which is the only way forward now and will combat the rotten system that we all now suffer under.
76

Vivas,

Edinburgh 28/01/2009 10:18:18
#83 LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-)))))))))))))
77

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 10:19:30

83. essenpee

"...which is dragging down Scotland during a time when we all need to be united. ....""

ha ha haha ha ha

Can you tell us one scottish labour 'socialist' policy?

Privatising the post office and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan don't count

78

Elethiomel,

Edinburgh 28/01/2009 10:21:03
#59 Good grief you're daft, a vote of no confidence?

280 for 340 against and a handful of abstentions, motion falls (and that is the best it could go).
The people have spoken! We are talking about a democratic parliament after all.
79

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/01/2009 10:31:47
This is a VERY BORING article. Why is anyone bothering to comment. The budget will pass because if it doesn't pass then Labour and the Liberals will need to set in place an alternative budget, they will need to have one up their sleeves, and they will need to present it within 28 days. Either that or we lose 1.8 billion quid and/or have a GE.

It is time for Labour and the Libs to put up or shut up, unfortunately they are unlikely to do either.
80

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/01/2009 10:35:23
The Scottish budget is not really the issue is it ? It's the UK budget that is the problem. Let's be honest, they are bankrupting us.
81

salmondella,

UK 28/01/2009 10:36:57
#85 Wardog - Yes I agree entirely -which is why we must get rid of the present Labour leadership which is a million miles from being socialist and reform the party.

By the way, Wardog, I am taking pratical action to stop the sell off of our post office - and have taken part in every major demo against the wars including the Gaza demo last weekend in Edinburgh -what are you doing?
82

Elethiomel,

Edinburgh 28/01/2009 10:38:06
#89 I don't know how you can say they aren't putting up, they will both vote against.

I admit it will pass because the tories and the greens will support it but Labour and the Liberals will have done all they could.
83

Vivas,

Edinburgh 28/01/2009 10:40:07
SLAB have only one slight medium-term hope. And that is to dump the blame for the Scottish recession on the SNP at the ballot-box in 2 years time. Never mind the veracity of that, it's what they would try to do ... common-sense for any party of any hue to do that of course.

Or they can try and grab the reins from the SNP now and take all the blame themselves in 2 years time, all against the backdrop of a deposed Broon and a UK wide conservative government.

I guess Gray is just waiting now for the call from Superbroon to tell him which way to jump. And Broon is insane enough to land Gray right in it.

Delicious !!!
84

Boab1,

28/01/2009 10:41:11
For crying out loud #83, 'dragging Scotland down'. How is reducing prescription charges, freezing council tax and reducing rates for small business bringing Scotland down?
85

salmondella,

UK 28/01/2009 10:47:44
#93 oab b- although I agree with the reduction of prescription charges and a fairer council tax system
( but not the SNP version) and as a small business man, have had more help from central government than the SNP - have any of these quite modest policies been adopted and how will they "radically" change the lives of the Scottish people?
86

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/01/2009 10:50:07
91 Really ? They have an alternative budget to present ? They have been seeking support from the other parties ? They are serious about challenging the SNP budget ? Nope, don't think so. That is what a serious opposition would do if they were seriously wanting to be rid of a minority Governemnt.

Draw your own conclusions.
87

Grahamski,

Falkirk 28/01/2009 10:55:09
96
Aye you're right enough Observer, a serious opposition would do that. Just like the SNP did when they were in opposition, eh?
88

Patrick O'Reilly,

Coatbridge 28/01/2009 10:56:41
The game is up for Swinney - and a few of his SNP colleagues are not disappointed.
89

Grahamski,

Falkirk 28/01/2009 10:57:40
94
Oh lummy, aren't you just the bitter one?Understandable really, what with the SNP leader being exposed as a sad Walter Mitty (or should that be Billy Liar?) figure and their flagship 'policies' collapsing quicker than an MSP at a free bar.....
90

,

28/01/2009 10:58:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
91

alanh,

ek 28/01/2009 11:02:00
"So what does each party want?

Labour

LABOUR has put forward a 15-point plan which it says must be significantly met before it backs the budget.

The headline item is money for 23,400 new apprenticeships, which Labour believes are essential to prepare Scotland for the years after the recession.

On top of this, Labour wants more money for Pace schemes, designed to go into companies where redundancies will take place for training and support.

It is also asking for £50 million to be spent on regenerating town centres.

Added to that, it wants the NHS to get its full allocation of £3.9 billion, instead of the £3.25 billion the SNP plans to give health boards."

ok nice mealy mouthed words from the nu liebores but can they give us any indication of WHAT CUTS from the budget they will do yo pay for there "priorities"?
In time of many job losses can they tell us where these apprentices are going to work? ( or how much that it will cost?)
92

ecosseman,

facts not propaganda 28/01/2009 11:03:33
WHY DO LABOUR HATE THE SNP SO MUCH,IS IT BECAUSE ALEX&CO HAVE DONE SO MUCH FOR SCOTLAND IN SUCH SO LITTLE TIME.THE FACTS ARE THERE FOR ALL TO SEE.SO COME ON LABOUR GROW UP AND STOP BEHAVING LIKE SPOILT CHILDREN,IF YOU CAN DO THAT THEN MAYBE THE LIBS WILL FOLLOW.SCOTLAND NEEDS EVERYONE TO THINK POSITIVE IN THESE TIMES.
93

salmondella,

UK 28/01/2009 11:04:46
#97 Peter. I hope that you are right about the Scottish economy although no one really knows what the situation will be in a few years time. Despite the mess that Labour are making of things here, we have aworld crisis of global capitalism which cannot be ignored.

The talk now is of protectionism, tariffs, trade wars and the drawing up of national boundaries as countries in panic try to protect their national interests and the Scottish economy itself would not, even under independence be able to sustain these indistries.

The companies and industries that you mention may well be affected by protectionism, which incidentally is the other side of the same coin as nationalism.
94

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/01/2009 11:08:12
98 Labour and the Liberals had a formal pact. No the SNP didn't try and bring down the government - neither did they bluff about doing that on an annual basis.
95

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 11:12:23


90. Esenpee

"..I am taking practical action to stop the sell off of our post office..."

So your not voting for Labour then.
96

Elethiomel,

Edinburgh 28/01/2009 11:12:51
#96 You don't seem to understand how these things work.

Of course they are not seriously trying to get rid of the Government; no-one can afford or be bothered with an election and the budget falling would not automatically trigger one.

It's all gesture politics however it is also official gesture politics, they are genuinely going to vote against it. That’s how politics should work, on votes in the chamber placed by democratically elected representatives. That is the only official avenue of objection they have.

It’s also not the opposition’s job to come up with a budget if the Government’s fails; it’s the Government’s job to come up with a new one. It only becomes the opposition’s job if the Government resigns and the opposition become a new Government. You can’t just pretend to be the Government when you feel like it (well you could but it would look really bad).

If voting in the chamber is no longer a valid form of expressing political opinion the system really is a wreck.
97

Grahamski,

Falkirk 28/01/2009 11:13:10
105
Well, they couldn't bluff about bringing down the government - they didn't have the numbers did they?
But I'm sure even if they did they wouldn't, oh no, not them......
98

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 11:14:30


90. Esenpee

"...have taken part in every major demo against the wars including the Gaza demo last weekend in Edinburgh...."

But you'll keep voting for Labour right?

No doubt your anti-nuclear, against pre-detention and want to see asylum laws changed in scotland.....


Isn't it time?

Time for the SNP?




99

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 11:15:07

108. Your particularly odious today, have you had a shower?
100

salmondella,

Uk 28/01/2009 11:15:42
#106 - I take it then, that you are doing nothing. Same old SNP always cheating.
101

Elethiomel,

Edinburgh 28/01/2009 11:17:23
Also, just as a side note, gesture politics or not if the Lib Dems or Labour vote against the budget tonight they will be the first parties ever to do so.

Neither the SNP or the Tories ever have, an interesting 8 year exercise in putting up and shutting up.
102

Grahamski,

Falkirk 28/01/2009 11:19:18
110
Oh dear, not taking your great leader being exposed as a fantasist very well are you? I would have thought the cybernats would have been used to trying to spin their way out of all his lies by now.....
103

Miss H,

28/01/2009 11:19:21
I don't see how any of them can vote against the budget because no-one has put in any amendments. How can you vote against something when you have no alternative? Labour are demanding a number of things but have not identified funding. Anyone can produce a wish list as long as they don’t have to say how they will pay for it.

Someone has just given me some interesting information on how much council tax would have to increase to fund the shortfall for local government if they get last year’s spending allocation instead of this year’s – which is what will happen if the Budget falls.

To make up the difference, council tax (band D average) would have to go up by 23% in Glasgow, by 17% in Aberdeen, by 19% in Dundee, by 15% in Edinburgh, by 19% in Highland, by 19% in Perth and Kinross or by 26% in the Borders.

What a laugh eh?
104

Miss H,

28/01/2009 11:22:48
107 If they all genuinely vote against it and continue to do so the Budget genuinely falls and the SNP genuinely resigns.

105

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 11:26:24

111. esenpee

Let's get this straight

Your against the Wars in Iraq & Afghanistan
Your against the privatisation of the Post Office
Your probably again new Nuclear
Your certainly against Trident
Your likely to be against Asylum Detention and pre-Charge custody extension



Can you name one single Labour Party MP or MSP that agree's with you on these points?

Are voting Labour because 'yer faither did and we're aw Labour'

How pathetic and hypocriticl is that.

You should be ashamed of yersel






106

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 11:27:16

113. Still a soap dodger then, I'm not clear did or didn't Brown 'SAVE THE WORLD'



107

Elethiomel,

Edinburgh 28/01/2009 11:29:03
#115 That's correct but only two parties will.

They aren't all the same you know, not everyone thinks in terms of unionism vs. nationalism. Some other people try to get things done.

In exactly the same way as not putting forward their own the opposition don't really ammend a budget either, again that hasn't been done by anybody in 9 years.
108

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/01/2009 11:29:38
107 If they are not trying to seriously get rid of the government then what are they doing voting against the budget ? Making a gesture. They don't have another budget to put in it's place. Now if they did, then I would take them seriously. But they don't. Voting against something is most definitely not the only official avenue of objection they have. The SNP are a minority govt. If they are so objectionable I would expect the opposition to remove them.
109

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 28/01/2009 11:33:52
#107

It’s also not the opposition’s job to come up with a budget if the Government’s fails; it’s the Government’s job to come up with a new one. It only becomes the opposition’s job if the Government resigns and the opposition become a new Government. You can’t just pretend to be the Government when you feel like it (well you could but it would look really bad).


Surely you can't just pretend to be an opposition when you feel like it. It's the opposition's duty to make clear to the public what they oppose and how they would make things better. What exactly do Labour oppose? What are their alternative policies? If the Government feel that these policies are too expensive, such as the Green's 100 million a year over ten years, then the Government have a right to say no.

The prospect of this labour shambles in power doesn't fill me with joy.
110

Grahamski,

Falkirk 28/01/2009 11:34:04
117
I share your pain...how embarrassing is this? First the Norwegians tell Mr Salmond to stop lying, then the presiding officer, then Kofi Annan.
What a sad wee Walter Mitty our so-called first minister is........
111

Elethiomel,

Edinburgh 28/01/2009 11:34:52
#119 No it really is the only official avenue.

Blocking the budget and removing the Government aren't the same thing, they might become the same thing if all the opposition parties were the same and thus voted the same way but that's not the case.

It's not us vs. them union vs. nat opposition vs government, that's not how multi party systems work, everyone is trying to represent themselves.
112

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/01/2009 11:35:44
118 I think you'll find the SNP are trying to get things done. Things that were in their manifesto. It's what they are supposed to do. Let's be in no doubt, the other parties can wreck that if they want to. Today is their chance. I don't think they'll take it.
113

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/01/2009 11:37:42
122 see 123.
114

Elethiomel,

Edinburgh 28/01/2009 11:38:58
#120 I don't support Labour and don't feel I have to answer for them or anyone else for that matter, politicians propose policies and I decide whether to support them or not, they can defend them for themselves.

For your convenience however there is (somewhat truncated) what each party wants section in the article above.
115

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 11:39:11

121. Grahamski, still believing everything Labour says....

Reported today in the Times as aprt of Gus Macleod's erm...'climbdown'....

"...Mr Annan's office said in a statement: “This has all been blown out of proportion. Mr Annan wrote to Mr Salmond saying that he could unfortunately not accept his kind invitation to attend the dinner on January 24, but he informed him that he would like to visit Scotland later in the year to deliver a speech. There is really no more to it than that. Mr Annan loves Scotland, and there is absolutely no row....."

A spokeswoman confirmed that Mr Annan is considering dates in September for a visit.......


Egg Face Grahamski Splat


116

salmondella,

UK 28/01/2009 11:41:25
##116 dug - Yes Tony Benn who is respected for similar views than mine across the political spectrum also speaks at anti war rallies and is also against the privatisation of the post office and all the other things that you have listed, but apparently still votes for Labour. - But I am flattered that you spend so much time on my posts -why? is it cos you have some doubt and fears that your dream of independence is fading into the distance and that some fibres in your tiny little mind actually agree with me? Goodbye.
117

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 11:41:49

121. Funny that how both the Norwegians and Icelanders have actually told the UK Government where to get off..... Jim Murphy has been a complete embarrassment to the UK and Scotland.

Oh and did I mention the German Chanceloor's denouncement of Gordon brown's economic policies of the fact that the EC have stated they expect Britian (yes that land of hope and glory) to be the longest and deepest in recession despite Brown's splurge on VAT cut price frocks.

I wonder how the additional tax rises will play form Brown in 2010.


118

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 11:48:30

127. Esenpee

TB isn't a Labour MP or MSP you buffoon..... "but apparently still votes Labour"

That doesn't surprise me that your living in the past however, like I said your voting for a party because of it's history and sweet FA to do with it's current policies.

That is really pitiful and you do our children a great disservice

My dream of independence will be voted on democratically by the Scottish people.

Unlike your favoured party, the party I support chooses to consult people and listen.



Are you even aware of TB's view's on Scottish self determination and localised democracy?


119

Elethiomel,

Edinburgh 28/01/2009 11:49:30
#123 You see though the other parties have manifestos too and they are trying to get what they were elected on done. If more members from other parties want something different to the Government done that's what will get done, and it's democratic.

It's not irresponsible to oppose the Government's budget, in fact if it goes against your manifesto it is your responsibility. If the Budget falls it will be no one’s fault but the SNP’s – it would show that the majority of the Parliament, and therefore (by our system) the majority of the Scottish people think the budget is inadequate.

Today is not "their" chance to get rid of the Government, I say again "they" are not an amorphous blob but different and often opposed political parties. Sometimes they agree with each other, and sometimes they even agree with the Government but on this a lot of them don't.

Today is every different parties' chance to stand up for what they think is correct regarding Scotland's finance, it looks like Labour and the Libs will do that and the other two parties won't.
120

,

28/01/2009 11:53:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
121

Miss H,

28/01/2009 11:56:17
130 But you see the other parties are not actually they are trying to get what they were elected on done.

They have not submitted any amendments to the budget - yes or no?

If you don't submit any amenendments what are they voting on exactly?
122

salmondella,

UK 28/01/2009 11:56:40
#129 dug - Touched a raw nerve there I think. You really must learn to read properly, -- where in my post did I state that Tony Benn is a Labour MP. What speech did TB state hat he supported the KIND of independence that the SNP stands for?

As a socialist like myself, TB supports self determination for nations which is a far different concept and issue than the bourgeois nationalism of the SNP -you really do have to do some research and self education before spouting off at a tangent.
123

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 12:03:33

133. essenpee tangent

So you don't or won't explain why you vote for Labour.

You can't name a single Labour MP/MSP that shares your views.

You see a vote on Scottish Independence as 'different' from other nations




You really need to stop reading the ladybird book of anarchism and get with the real world my friend, sooner or later you will graduate. from your course.

You can't remain a student forever.






124

frank mcbride,

lusitania 28/01/2009 12:07:05
#107, Elethiomel.

The effectiveness of Democratic government lies with the effectiveness and integrity of the opposition.

NuLab and the LDs are lacking in both these attributes. Why?

1. Their opposition is directed against the SNP, as a Party, and particularly A. Salmond, not the SNP Government.
This has weekened any policy position they have taken because it is perceived as petty politicking rather than serious politics.

2. As, Observer and Miss H. have averred to, it is a constitutional responsibility, encumbent upon the opposition, to state where any funds will come from from any amendment it wishes made to the proposed SB; this the NuLab and the LibDems are clearly not prepared to do. This is an unethical stance.

If the NuLab and/or the LD opposition is not prepared to either put forward an alternative budget or costed amendments, and choose to vote against the SB, then they are showing a lack of integrity on a collosal scale, and utter disdain for the people of Scotland, especially those who voted for them.
125

Elethiomel,

Edinburgh 28/01/2009 12:08:42
#132 They are voting on the Governments programme, that's their responsibility to hold the Government to account. They have said what they want (and by extention the people who voted for them) want, they don't think the Government has satisfied their needs so they are voting accordingly.

If they become the Government they can have their own programme, until then it's the Government's job to propose legislation and the opposition's job to keep representing their vote by saying what they want. If there is consensus among enough MSPs sometimes a party will put down an ammendment and more MSPs will support that, it's unusual though and has never happened for a budget which is always billed as the Government's opportunity to put forward it's financial programme for scrutiny.

It's not too tough.
126

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 12:11:17

133. esenpee easy as 123

Let's make this simple for you.

Did you vote for your MP?

Do they stand for what you believe in?

Do they vote in the UK Parliament for those same ideals?

You Benito Mussolini also started out as a radical unionist firebrand and Marxist agitato, something he was often jailed in his youth.

However, like you he was coming to the belief which was soon to dominate his life — that the existing order must be overthrown by an elite of revolutionaries acting in the name of the people.......

Like you he'd rather do that without asking the people in a referendum

Are you afraid of Scotland joining Europe?

127

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 12:15:50

133. Esenpee

"...bourgeois nationalism...."

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

What's really scary is that the latest crop of swivvel eyed f New Labour supporters actually believe that New Labour are socialists.

Here's some of their socialist policies.

100% increase in basic rate Income Tax
Pensions obliterated during a series of raids by Brown
Pension Stocks annihilated by a Crisis exacerbated by Brown's Polices
£12Billion squandered on a 2% VAT cut on Party Frocks....
Bailing out the Fat Cats
Illegal Wars
Backroom Deals on Abortion Rights
Sky High Council Tax
Prison Population out of control
Methadone Programme instead of proper Rehabilitation
Binge Drinking out of Control
Abject Failure to deal with anti-social behaviour
Airguns remain a serious threat in Scotland
Welfare Reforms welcomed by Tories
Privatisation of NHS and City Academies
Post Office closures and expected Privatisation
Party Sleaze / Dodgy Donations / Cash for Honours
Dodgy Arms deals with Middle East
Abolishing Scottish Regiments / Poorly Equipping our Soldiers
UK Government withholding over £1BILLION from Scots.
10 year Transport Plan Total Failure
New Nuclear Power at expense of Renewables
£250 BILLION on renewing Trident System
Humiliating defeat over 42 pre charge detention
Actively deregulated Financial Services
Presided over the biggest Personal Debt crisis ever known.
Poverty Gap Trend Increasing
128

frank mcbride,

lusitania 28/01/2009 12:16:48
#121, Grahamski.

I worry for your sanity.

The Norweigan Ambassador put your 1st accusation to bed by rebuking Westminster ministers.

Your 2nd accusation was put to bed by the Presiding Officer, who said that he was neither refering to Mr. Salmond nor Mr Scott when he made his referal.

As far as your 3rd accusation goes, we will have to await the outcome of the SG's dialouge with Mr Annan's Office.

Please try to avoid using smears as they normally come back to bit you on the bahooky.
129

Elethiomel,

Edinburgh 28/01/2009 12:20:51
#135

1. That's your opinion which in my opinion holds very little water given the insult Salmond throws around the chamber every week.

2. I don't see why that is so difficult to accept, they are not voitng on their own programme nor do they have to, they are not making any ammendments, it's the Government's job to bring forward the programme.

All they are saying "This budget does not reflect the parliamentary programme we were elected on by our voters, we are voting against it." That's very basic democracy.
130

Elethiomel,

Edinburgh 28/01/2009 12:27:30
And don't get me wrong I know all this is gesture based, that's what I meant earlier when I said that someone didn't seem to realise how these things work, they work on gestures, sometimes well backed up, like when they do it officialy today, sometimes not. After todays vote people will be able to say that Labour wanted such and such from the budget and voted against as a result.

They are designed to force little concessions and leave the big battles to another day. If you don't get what I'm talking about see the SNP's programme for their eight years in opposition.
131

Miss H,

28/01/2009 12:34:33
136 Nope - you said they are trying to get the priorities in their own manifestos included. No they are not - they may have said what they want to the press but they are not giving the parliament any opportunity to vote on that. If they vote no it's a vote to bring down the Government. Which is fair enoigh if that is what they want to do.

You are right to say that a budget falling will not automatically trigger an election but nevertheless it will trigger one because Labour have no support to form an administration of their own so an election is the inevitable outcome.
132

Miss H,

28/01/2009 12:35:52
142 The SNP did not vote against Labour's budgets.
133

Ewan Randall,

28/01/2009 12:36:46
(#59) – (Peter) – Are you so desperate you would rather position yourself in an untenable position than face any fact which is not conjecture?

Did the SNP do so well in the last Scottish Elections that they were able to hold on to that poll lead which would have given them a majority at Holyrood?

Did the SNP do so well as to win the Glenrothes by-election which they told the world was in the bag a few days before Election Day?

Are the followers of the SNP now scared a coalition government might do more for there majority voters in Scotland than the Scottish government is delivering right now?

Why is your position so easy to overturn if you are so much in the right?

134

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 12:39:50

145. What coalition government?

Your getting a wee bit ahead of yourself aren't you.

Are you seriously suggesting that the Liberals will reform pact with labour?

That ship has sailed my friend





135

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/01/2009 12:41:06
142 complete cop-out. If they want to vote against it, they should have an alternative to put forward. They don't.
136

frank mcbride,

28/01/2009 12:45:54
#140, Elethiomel.

Are you just being obtuse, or do you genuinely not understand the SB procedure, as layed out in the Parliamentary rules?

1. The SG puts forward its Budget.

2. It goes to committee stage; the Committee can propose Amendments. All Amendments must be costed and shown the different distribution of monies - within the limited pot. Remember, Constitutionally the SB must balance.

3. It goes to the full Parliament for ratification.

If the opposition have laid no Amendments, how can they ethically vote against the budget? Please don't bang on about gesture politics. Gesture politics are the politics of "Do nothing"; they, most certainly, are NOT the politics of representing those who voted for you.

Also, regardless of your opinion of Mr Salmond's behaviour, my pt. 1 is still valid.
137

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 12:53:50

145. Ewan

So let's get this straight, your saying that the Liberals may form a coalition with labour, that would mean that Labour would need to accept the Liberals £800Million tax cut surely.

But Labour want more money put into apprenticeships?

eh?

The budget will be passed, the Greens and Tories will get nearer to what they want.

That will include some of things that Labour want so their principled position is compromised already i.e. apprenticeships for energy efficiency measure nd town cente

The Liberals are locked out and Labour are simply playing games with their own shakey policies from last year

end of.
138

frank mcbride,

lusitania 28/01/2009 13:09:27
#145, ER.

I will leave you to your crowing about NuLabTory's least bad disaster, over the past 2yrs. However you seem blind to the 7% swing TO the SNP.

As far as a Coalition Government is concerned, I would suggest that this holds no fear, whatsoever for SNP supporters, except in that they are aware that it will be a disaster for the people of Scotland.

Do the people of Scotland want to return to DIRECT WESTMINSTER RULE, for this would be the result of a NuLabTory led Coalition? I think not.
139

Grahamski,

Falkirk 28/01/2009 13:10:25
126
Oh dear, Wardog, you really should learn to stop digging. On Saturday night Alex Salmond claimed that Kofi Annan had contacted him to ask if he could come to Scotland because he wanted to give a lecture on Burns.
Salmond :“I'm able ... to annnounce tonight what I think is something quite special, because I have a letter from Kofi Annan in which he requests, if it would be appropriate, that he could come and deliver a lecture during the Year of Homecoming in tribute to Robert Burns."
That's not true is it?
Pinnochio Salmond slides on that big tartan banana skin again....sad wee Eck McMitty, caught making things up again to make himself look important on the world stage, any answers from the dictators and despots he was sooking up to by the way?
140

frank mcbride,

lusitania 28/01/2009 13:37:39
#153, Grahamski.

I've already advised you against using smear as a political tool. You seem not minded to take that advice.

So be it. But remember, it serves only to make you look foolish.

Is, or is not, the SG in dialogue with Mr Annan's office?
Did, or did not, Mr Annan express a wish to make a speech, in honour of Burns, in Scotland during the Homecoming?

Oh! And watch yer bahooky, Grahamski. You wouldn't want it bitten, would you?
141

The Tin Man,

28/01/2009 14:11:10
#157 Peter

At least the SNP charge more for favours to their friends. Although the latest nepotism is a bit cheap-skate. Any idea how much policy reversal currently costs donors?
142

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 28/01/2009 14:13:25
Would Labour's efforts not be better spent lobbying Gordon Brown to pass through the correct share of the Barnett consequentials rather than cooking the books to deprive Scotland of its full block grant?
143

Grahamski,

Falkirk 28/01/2009 14:13:56
155
This has nothing to do with the Labour Party or Maddox. It was The Times who broke this story, foaming-mouthed nats immediately blamed The Labour Party and England.
In the meantime Mr Salmond has announced that Barrack Obama has contracted him to see if he can star in a musical about the bard. The concert is due to be held in Brigadoon......
144

brownlie,

28/01/2009 14:20:47
160 Grahamski

I think you're telling porkies! Nothing new there then!
145

Grahamski,

Falkirk 28/01/2009 14:23:23
161
No no no....the proper natspeak for telling porkies is 'I got my wires crossed'. In the meantime Alex Salmond has announced that his great friend, Nelson Mandela, has applied for SNP membership. He's got a letter about it, apparently.......
146

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 14:25:40


160. Dear oh Dear, Grahamski, is that the best you do, even after the times has today printed further confirmation form annan's spokespeople that he is indeed coming.





147

Grahamski,

Falkirk 28/01/2009 14:28:34
163
Never get tired grimly puming out that government propaganda, Wardog?
Alex Salmond claimed: "I have a letter from Kofi Annan in which he requests, if it would be appropriate, that he could come and deliver a lecture during the Year of Homecoming in tribute to Robert Burns."
Salmond is lying.
148

Grahamski,

Falkirk 28/01/2009 14:29:47
How many more international statesman is Mr Salmond going to embarrass?
149

brownlie,

28/01/2009 14:31:05
162 Grahamski

Your wires are so crossed it inhibits your ability to think for yourself which is the main reason you and I are unionists.
150

The Tin Man,

28/01/2009 14:35:54
#163 Wardog

Not that the whole business is of much consequence, but even the SNP PR machine has admitted that Salmond was confused when he made his speech announcing Annan's intentions. Fair enough - we all make mistakes.


151

Grahamski,

Falkirk 28/01/2009 14:37:31
163
Here's the first couple of pars from today's Times:

The Scottish government said yesterday that “wires had got crossed” as it attempted to explain its side of the Kofi Annan Homecoming dispute.
The government sources were commenting on the disclosure in The Times that the former United Nations Secretary-General's representatives in London had said that Mr Annan had not, as Alex Salmond had claimed, agreed to come to Scotland as part of the Year of Homecoming to give a lecture on Robert Burns.

Aye, yer right enough, a real mea culpa fae the Times....
152

The Tin Man,

28/01/2009 14:39:52
#158 Peter

1. There was the bus re-regulation policy.

2. There was the donation from the owners of Stagecoach.

3. They voted in favour of bus de-regulation.

None of which is illegal - buying policy is perfectly legal, as long as the donor lives in the UK. It is underhand, and makes a mokery of party conferences, though.
153

alanh,

ek 28/01/2009 14:40:48
#169

what did the letter from Annan say?

and any chance of a link to it?
154

Miss H,

28/01/2009 14:56:17
170 Er - buses were deregulated two decades ago. What vote are you talking about?

155

The Tin Man,

28/01/2009 15:01:45
#173 Miss H

Just prior to coming to power, bus re-regulation was voted in as a SNP policy at their party conference. The policy has been reversed.
156

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

28/01/2009 15:08:14
Grahamski, Seems Koffe Annan does not seems to Cringe about burns. Why do you and you Labour mates?

Here is his speach from 2004 UN.

"SG/SM/9112
15 January 2004

Delivering Inaugural Robert Burns Memorial Lecture, Secretary-General Annan Calls for Brotherhood, Tolerance, Coexistence among All Peoples

NEW YORK, 14 January (UN Headquarters) -- Following is Secretary-General Kofi Annan’s Inaugural Robert Burns Memorial Lecture, “The Brotherhood of Man”, which he delivered at United Nations Headquarters on Tuesday, 13 January:

It is a great pleasure indeed for Nane and me to be here with you to celebrate the great Scottish poet Robert Burns and to help you inaugurate what I hope will become an important series of lectures.

Emyr, I realize you have inherited this event from your predecessor. Since you are a quintessential Welshman now joining in tribute to a renowned Scot, I think it only right to congratulate you for your broad-mindedness, which is truly in the spirit of the United Nations -- and of Burns, too, of course.

Let me also say that my own presence here tonight is not because I can trace my roots to Scotland. Yes, as we all know, there is a town of Annan there, whose founding dates back many centuries. And yes, the town even has a walking club and festival, and that is one of my favourite pursuits. But my name has a quite different origin. Let’s just say, as Burns himself would, that we are all brothers.

But then, you might well ask why a United Nations Secretary-General was eager to take part in this event. At first glance, one might think there is an ocean of distance between the hard-nosed give-and-take of international diplomacy as it is practised here in New York, and the lyrical verse that emanated from rural Scotland two centuries ago. But look closer and I think you will see why I am here."
157

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

28/01/2009 15:09:50
Continued

#176

To take just one example, Burns was born into poverty, and spent his youth working on a farm. Burns’s poems dignify and illuminate the struggle faced by the vast majority of the world’s population today. Ralph Waldo Emerson once said that Burns had, and I quote,

“given voice to all the experiences of common life; he has endeared the farmhouse and cottages, patches and poverty, beans and barley; ... hardship, the fear of debt...”. End of quote.

Burns has also been described as a poet of the poor, an advocate for political and social change, and an opponent of slavery, pomposity and greed -- all causes very much supported by the United Nations. He was even, as a tax collector, a civil servant of sorts, though I should stress the United Nations has no interest in that line of work.

But it is one of Burns’s most famous lines -- “a Man’s a Man for a’ That” -- that I should like to serve as the touchstone for my remarks tonight. And in particular his prayer, in the same poem, that “Man to Man, the world o’er, Shall brothers be for a’ that”.

Living together is the fundamental human project -- not just in towns and villages from Scotland to South Africa, but also as a single human family facing common threats and opportunities
158

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

28/01/2009 15:13:47

So the SNP first minister invited a world famous humanitarian to give a speech in Scotland on a poet Koffi Annan holds in very high regard.

Good old Eck, Putting Scotland in the light after so many years of unionist darkness.

159

Miss H,

28/01/2009 15:31:53
175 Tin Man. Oh right - I get you I thought you were talking about a parliamentary vote.

Yes Conference voted for bus re-regulation. I'll tell you some of the other things we voted for at that Conference:

Upgrading the A9 between Inverness and Perth and the A96 from Inverness to Aberdeen to dual carriageway status. Ending the tolls on Forth and Tay Bridge. Introducing elective time in the school week. Including a requirement to utilise a high proportion of sustainable materials in new housebuilding. Trialing the development of individual budgets to extend the flexibility and choice of services available for people with a disability and who have an assessed need for care support. Introducing a local income tax to replace the council tax.

I will refrain from regurgitating every resolution that was passed. Some of what was passed went into the manifesto, some of it didn’t. Some of what was in the manifesto has been achieved by this point, some of it hasn’t. Some of what went into the manifesto probably shouldn’t have gone in. Maybe some stuff did not make it into the manifesto that should have. I am pretty glad that re-regulating bus services was not in manifesto. You could not ask local authorities to ensure that bus services were provided without funding that. And how would we fund that? It is still SNP policy to support local authorities having control but there is a difference between what you might want to do and what you can do. Apart from anything else don’t you think if it had been a manifesto commitment COSLA would have made signing the concordat dependent on not having to take control of bus services for at least another twenty years.
160

Miss H,

28/01/2009 15:43:41
Anyway back to story. This is latest on Budget:
John Swinney has offered £22 million in the first year to start off the Green's insulation scheme. He has given the Tories the credit for a new town centre regeneration fund of £60 million for 2009/10). Has agreed to be flexible over where money for new affordable homes.

Should be enough to get votes from Tories, Greens, Margo.
161

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 15:45:25

180. Aye, smee was banned for racist abuse, the kind that he rails against.... all that chatter about scots picking on English with posh accents and then he's on here denigrating Scot's as a language......

AM2's campaign suffers yet another setback.

162

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 15:46:44

182. Aye, though I expect the greens will abstain.

Labour & the Lib Dems are going to have a hard time making any claim on the new affordable housing coming forward....

163

brownlie,

28/01/2009 15:48:48
174 Fur Foulkes sake

Yes, pretty fair and balanced summing up of our unionist policies and attitudes.
164

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 15:49:04


175. Tinman

I'ma afraid you wrong there.

Bus re-regulation was voted for by that conference, it was never included in any SNP policy documents or manifesto's.

Specifically, it never appeared in the 2007 manifesto on which the SNP were elected.





165

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 28/01/2009 15:50:00
Anyone know if the Budget debate is live on the TV or radio ?
166

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 15:54:25


187. Parts of it just finished on BBC2

167

Ewan Randall,

28/01/2009 16:08:58
(#146) – (Wardog) – Am I getting a wee bit a head of myself?

If I am getting a wee bit a head of myself is there still a chance there could be a coalition government in the offing?

Do I seriously have to suggest anything other than the possibility of a coalition government?
Couldn’t any coalition partners make new arrangements?


(#151) – (frank mcbride) – Did I suggest I was unaware of fluctuations in the polls, do you remember Glenrothes?

Can you prove a coalition taking the SNP’s position will definitely be a disaster for sure?

Would the people of Scotland really believe they would be under direct rule from London, or do you think they realize what really goes on at Holyrood by now?


(#152) – (Peter) – If I indeed needed to overturn anything you addressed wouldn’t I have to first to discount all of your conjecture?

Wouldn’t discounting all of your conjecture leave me with very little, if anything, to overturn?

In that case I have overturned your perception of fact over conjecture haven’t I?

Have you got anymore proof than usual on whether Cameron is not taking any opportunity he can to further the Tory cause with any proof of wrong doing?

Have you got any evidence on results from the next general election that the rest of us don’t have, and does it come from the same source the SNP used for predicting their win in Glenrothes?


Is the perception of the Labour party being corrupt popular, or accurate?


If you were correct don’t you think I would back you up all the way?


Don’t you think Cameron is much smarter than the ignorant who would mistake conjecture for fact?
168

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 28/01/2009 16:11:13
Cheers 189 found it
169

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 28/01/2009 16:22:38
175 Very weak argument, made weaker by the fact that your claims are totally wrong. Never mind, it can only get better for you.
170

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 28/01/2009 16:28:41
Oh heavens Mr Purvis is on his feet.

I tried to listen to the labour member from Kirkcaldy, the lady needs a wee bit of work on her communications.

I couldn't work out were she was going.
171

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 28/01/2009 16:33:00
Hello I am Andy Kerr take me to your leader!
172

Miss H,

28/01/2009 16:41:02
Seems Patrick Harvie threw a flakey - has demanded £33 million per year. Maybe he will get it.

I think the SNP will win vote.

46 Labour plus 16 Lib Dems vote against.

47 SNP plus 16 Tory vote for.

2 Greens and Margo abstain.

of course I could be wrong ...........
173

frank mcbride,

lusitania 28/01/2009 16:45:10
#190, ER.

I made no comment on fluctuating Polls. What I did was that Glenrothes was NuLabTory's least worst disaster; by no stretch of the imagination can a swing of 7% TO the SNP be seen as positive for NuLabTory.

Furthermore, taking all Elections, since June 2008, into account (including Glenrothes day) there is a stron swing TO the SNP - this swing is in actual, not Opinion Poll, votes.

As you will try to say, this is indeed conjecture, but conjecture based on evidence.

NuLabTory/LibDum - Disagreement on almost all major policy platforms:

CT/LIT
LD's 2% reduction in IT.
Calman Commission.

NuLabTory/Tory - Fundamental. Proximity of Westminster Election. Stated Tory policy of No Coalition.

Therefore, based on the above, a NuLabTory/LibDum Coalition would be a DO NOTHING Administration, and a NuLabTory/Tory Administration is a non-starter.

To your last point, the only option left is a Minority NuLabTory Administration which, even you would have to agree, would be, to all intents and purposes, a return to DIRECT Westminster rule.

174

Miss H,

28/01/2009 16:45:19
david Whitton getting very agitated about SNP brinksmanship - Alex Salmond seemingly skulking about the chamber trying to do deals with folk and John Swinney pulling rabbits out of hats. Exciting stuff.
175

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 28/01/2009 16:46:12
What did David Whitton have for his Lunch?
176

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 28/01/2009 16:48:59
Go John, you stick it to them pal!
177

Miss H,

28/01/2009 16:54:06
199 he did
178

Miss H,

28/01/2009 16:59:31
OMG Greens voted it down.

One more chance - and then they resign.
179

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 28/01/2009 17:00:16
Are labour are about to push the nuclear button.
180

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 28/01/2009 17:01:01
201 They did, jings.
181

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/01/2009 17:07:02
what happens now ? I know what I want to happen but.....
182

Miss H,

28/01/2009 17:07:18
203 As Wendy said Bring It On!!!!!!!!!
183

Miss H,

28/01/2009 17:10:33
204 Labour want to bring in motions of no confidence.

46 Labour plus 16 Lib Dems vote for that we assume.

47 SNP plus 16 Tory plus Margo vote no.

John Swinney brings back budget - hopefully having sorted out Greens.

If that is voted down Government resigns.

labour and Lib Dems attempt to form administration - same numbers work it out. Cannot do it.

Election.
184

AM2,

Scotland,UK 28/01/2009 17:11:08
Good evening folks. Isn't this interesting?

You were saying, #182? :-)
185

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/01/2009 17:11:17
206 I think the opposition are duty bound to try and form a Government first. They knew what they were doing. Now we shall see what they are made of. If they faff around like a bunch of fennies after pressing the nuclear button, then let's make sure the voters understand that.
186

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 28/01/2009 17:12:23
204,205,206 Do Labour have the hunger for a fight right now?
187

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/01/2009 17:13:15
208 Yes you're right it is interesting.
188

Daveunderwater,

28/01/2009 17:13:54
Iain Gray is considering a vote of no confidence in the SNP goverment, which in Liebor speak means he is waiting on a call from Bailout Broon and disnae ken fit tae dee



189

,

28/01/2009 17:14:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
190

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 17:14:40
What Labour, the Liberals & the Greens voted against....

Increase in Public Expenditure of £1.8BILLION
£300Million Accelerated capital expenditure
£60Million High Street Regeneration
£22Million Energy Efficiency measures for 100,000 homes.
Increase & Support for further apprenticeships
191

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 28/01/2009 17:15:47
#207 You forgot the Greens. If they're stupid enough to vote down the budget, they're stupid enough to force an election.

(Would the Presiding Officer vote for the status quo in the event of a tie again?)
192

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/01/2009 17:16:12
207 I don't think 'we' need to compromise any more than has been done. Let the Labour Party and the Liberals justify themselves to the electorate. If the dice is cast it's cast.

210 do they have the resources and the bodies for an election never mind the hunger ?
193

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 17:16:57


208. Gloating at massive potential job losses, higher council tax and a slower recovery out of recession.

Well I never.
194

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 17:18:09

216. Agreed, compromises have been made, no costed proposals have been forthcoming from Labour or the Lib dems.

195

frank mcbride,

lusitania 28/01/2009 17:19:28
Looks like we may be facing DIRECT WESTMINSTER RULE.

Minority NuLabTory (Colonial) Administration, anyone?
196

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 28/01/2009 17:20:37
216 Obs I don't know if they do. I agree those who voted against it have to explain why, they also have to put there budget on the table fully costed of course, that should be interesting.
197

,

28/01/2009 17:20:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
198

AM2,

Scotland,UK 28/01/2009 17:21:24
#217 Wardog

No, I'm not. That's your take on what would have been the result of the budget and your wanton misrepresentation of what I actually said. Nothing new there!
199

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/01/2009 17:21:49
219 I've been saying all day you don't vote down a budget without having another one to put in it's place. This is grown up politics. The ball's in their court. Those MSP's who voted this down have to put something in it's place or vote for the second reading of the budget. Or call a GE.

Simple as that.
200

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 17:23:26

223. Don't lie AM2, we all know you were 'punching the air'

201

TWC,

28/01/2009 17:25:24
let the people decide.

This is no way to run a Scottish Government. I think the parties were very silly to vote this down because I think the out come will be that the small parties will disappear but it suits me
202

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 17:26:06


Hari Kari by the Opposition, I can this backfiring spectacularly.......

Wait and see the story's that will come out regarding local authority budgeting, volunteer services, charities, council taxation etc.

This will be very interesting indeed.

203

Daveunderwater,

SNP Heartlands 28/01/2009 17:26:31
This could be the final nail in the coffin, Bailout Browns Bully Boys have gone too far this time

Thousands of jobs will now be at risk due to £1.8 Billion of expenditure being shelved

More shops to close on the high street
More small business go under (especially insulation companies)

Meanwhile the lights will be burning late at Bailout Brown's Bunker, lets see him dig his party out of this yawning chasm they are racing towards

IT'S TIME FOR AN ELECTION WHERE THE SNP WILL WIN WITH A CLEAR MAJORITY!!!

BRING ON BAILOUT BROWN'S BULLY BOYS
204

AM2,

Scotland,UK 28/01/2009 17:26:40
#225 Wardog

Who's "we"? Your SNP Rapid Response Team?
205

livilion,

livingston 28/01/2009 17:27:02
#212 Daveunderwater,

Ian Gray, you know if you put a ten gallon hat and a beard on him and gave him a two legged horse he'd pass muster as wee Loby Dosser wi his wan good eye. Gray aye shuts wan eye when he tells porkies.

Ian Gray has no confidence, who can blame him?
Like his famous bendy predecessor said: 'bring it on!'

An early Holyrood election, an early Westminster general election? Back to more Labour's 'no more Tory boom and bust'?
You decide... Ya dancer!
206

Daveunderwater,

Balmedie 28/01/2009 17:28:00
This will finish the Lib Dems in Aberdeenshire for good
207

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 17:28:22


229. Your wit is duller by the day, best move over and let your young disciples, rufus, smee and the like take over the reigns of your creaking blog.

208

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 17:29:27


231. Agreed, they were in meltdown, this is going to obliterate them....
209

Miss H,

28/01/2009 17:29:46
221 We know why labour and Lib Dems voted it down - they hate the SNP.

Greens voted it down because they were not offered enough.

What will happen is this.

SNP will give Greens more and pay for it by scrapping stuff they had put in to appease Labour. Can anybody remember what that was? I can't.

Budget will be brought back next week and pass.

Labour will have to move vote of no confidence because they have raised it. They will lose. Lib Dems might vote with them - Tories won't, Margo won't, Greens won't.
210

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 28/01/2009 17:29:58
Labour about to commit seppuku

Let's got to the polls.
211

AM2,

Scotland,UK 28/01/2009 17:30:05
#229 Wardog

It's only creaking under the weight of your leaden diatribes.
212

frank mcbride,

lusitania 28/01/2009 17:30:29
Welcome back, AM2!

I say this, only, because you are more polite than your other personalities.

However, your message and dissembling is no different.

But, as I said, you are more polite.
213

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 17:33:00

234. Miss H - Better still focus the apprenticeship jobs in energy efficiency and renewables.

The Green's figures are wrong however and based on a very odd generalisation, 2/3 of Scottish homes can't take cavity insulation, Swinney referred to it in his speech and a good reason why this need sto be piloted to find solutions to these predominant properties

Insulate Cavity walled House - £1000

Insulate mid floor Tenement Flat - £4000

The greens figures are base don the £1000 figure.
214

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/01/2009 17:33:09
234 So Labour lose, the Greens gain, and we carry on as normal. I'll live with that. The other option is that we go to the polls. I'll live with that too. The other option is that the opposition come up with a fully costed budget and ......oh, silly me, of course. They don't have one.

215

Miss H,

28/01/2009 17:34:13
235 Won't happen. Voters don't want another election.

I am almost developing a kind of mad admiration for the Greens. SNP took it to the brink and they took it further.

If the outcome is more money for home insulation I will not be unhappy.
216

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 28/01/2009 17:34:29
234 That's probably the most likely scenario has Mr Gray by raising the question about the mechanics about a vote of confidence shot his bolt too soon, as you say by raising it they have raised the stakes if they back down they have egg on their face if they proceed who is going to back that motion?
217

AM2,

Scotland,UK 28/01/2009 17:35:23
#237 Frank

Thank you, but I have only one "personality".

Anyway, enough of this. Hello and goodbye.
218

Daveunderwater,

SNP Rapid Response Team 28/01/2009 17:35:41
The word cam doon frae Holyrood
The budgets deen an dichted
A dead heat a status quo
Michty Am flabbergasted

Broon sits in London toon
His jowls are locked and doon
While up the road in Holyrood
Wee Eck is laughing the hoose down

A certain Mr Cameron must be dancing in the aisles


219

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/01/2009 17:39:22
242 Labour don't want an election. They will be panicking big time, they're not ready and don't have the funds. They were probably more stunned when the kamikaze greens voted against it than Swinney was. I guess the greens are going to get their insulation, you don't expect such a daring game of brinkmanship from the greens. Kamikaze hippies, that's a new concept to me.
220

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 17:39:44

236. It's creaking under the inconsequential topics you chose to post about, I'd have thought a man of your considerable intellect and wit would be posting on more meaty subjects than petty diatribes on 'name calling' ' flag waving' ' who said what behind the bike sheds' and ' burns wiz a unionizt'

You haven't posted anything on the economy of consequence for over two months.

Have you got an agenda of aggravated grievance?

Or have you got your head in the sand over the state of the economy.
221

john z,

edinburgh 28/01/2009 17:43:02
Labour , the lib dems and the greens think they are still playing student politics. Time for them to grow up.

As for the greens - look patrick you have 2, and only 2 MSP's in the Scottish Parliament. You cannot get exactly what you want.

If I were John Swinney, I'd completely remove the concessions for the greens, as they clearly don't understand grown up politics and the word 'compromise'.

Councils, educational groups, charities and community groups are waiting (literally) on the money from this budget, and with the economy in recession, it beggars belief that Labour and the Lib Dems choose now to play silly b*ggers with the Scottish budget.

This is not a silly wee game, Labour. Grow up.

Swiney and the SNP should not give another inch on this, and should cut the money offered to the infantile Patrick Harvie too. The greens should get NOTHING.
222

TWC,

28/01/2009 17:43:27
229 AM2

Labour made a mistake here this budget was desperate for some Councils and Voluntary Organisations.
Everybody else can claim they tried while Labor have only one proposal which they've been shouting for 6 months

Make every body an apprentice, Apprenticeships who will employ all the journeymen?? and where will they go when their time is out?
I hope SNP resigbn and let us vote on it.
223

john z,

edinburgh 28/01/2009 17:47:08
And by the way, Iain Gray has today shown the people of Scotland exactly why he should never be in a position of power.

Labour should be ashamed of themselves. It seems Labour will do anything to betray the people of Scotland.
224

john z,

edinburgh 28/01/2009 17:50:53
249,

That's the point regarding apprenticeships, who is going to employ all these people.

The fact is, that there are a higher number per head of population in Scotland than in England. This does not stop Labour continually trying to mis-lead, by saying there are fewer in Scotland. The reason the total is lower in Scotland is because it has about a tenth the population of england.

But good old Lying Labour never let facts get in the way of their nonsense whinging. Labour is bad for Scotland. Period.
225

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28/01/2009 17:53:15
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frank mcbride,

lusitania 28/01/2009 17:53:42
#251, john z.

Would that it were as deliberate as that, but it's not.

NuLabour is so self-serving that nothing else is considered.

They are as amoral as their banking friends.
227

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/01/2009 17:59:22
253 Yes, but in the real world the SNP want the budget passed. So they probably will give the Greens something to pacify them, and Labour and the Lib Dems will get nowt. The Greens have played a blinder here they seem much better at this politics lark than Labour and the Libs are.
228

New Town Resident,

28/01/2009 18:06:50
In terms of the big picture, accident or plan?

Here's the plan theory.

If the Lib Dems and Labour want to go back into coalition government now then they can and they will because they will simply offer pretty well everything the Greens want. Its clear that the SNP has mishandled the Greens and relationships have broken down.

So have the Lib Dems changed position? I would guess they have signalled they are open to negotiation with Labour, and that's what will now happen. So it's more plan than accident, and Labour could well decide to cut income tax by say 1p to position for the Westmister election.

I don't think that the Scottish Unionist parties take orders on a day to day basis from what the SNP calls Westmidden. However in this case I would have thought the Scottish Tories will also now check with Cameron because there are upcoming UK general election implications. Do you think it's in Cameron's interest to have Salmond out now before the national vote? If Cameron thinks so (arguments both ways), then its bye bye Salmond and the Tories will abstain on the Lab/Lib Dem/Green budget so it passes.



229

Miss H,

28/01/2009 18:15:34
258 Lib Dems and Labour cannot go into coalition as long as Lib Dems hold to their insane policy of 800 million cuts in public spending which is why they voted against the budget .. on the other hand it is the lib dems we are talking about so they probably will agree to anything Labour say.

So - 46 Labour MSPs plus 16 Lib Dems. Not enough.

They would need the Tories to back them or the Greens. Neither will.

The Greens certainly won't. They are not going to support Labour who are pro nuclear, pro Trident, pro GM, pro ID cards, pro Iraq war etc. It's not going to happen. Even if Labour offered them a place in Cabinet they won't do it.

What will happen is the SNP will increase the amount for home insulation and the Greens will vote for the Budget.

Everyone just got a bit overheated today.
230

Miss H,

28/01/2009 18:19:25
259 Should have made clear - the Tories will back the SNP because they got what they wanted. They want to claim credit for the 1000 extra police, extra drug funding, business rates cut, town centres funding.

None of that will progress under labour/Lib Dems. Then what do the Tories have to campaign on?

Also Labour would not agree to any income tax cuts. Far from it - first thing they would do is end the council tax freeze.
231

Nevsky;,

Moscow 28/01/2009 18:23:38
It will be voted through and there is no chance the second bill will be defeated.



232

New Town Resident,

28/01/2009 18:27:40
#259.

I bow to your much greater knowledge as I'm sure you know these people. I'd assumed the Greens would go into at least tacit coalition because all the issues you mention are not Holyrood issues and the Greens would prioritise their domestic Scottish programme. If everyone who is in the know concurs with your rock solid opinion of where the Greens are coming from, then it looks more like accident or overheating as you say.

However it was this very SNP view of the Greens having nowhere else to go which has just led to the train wreck - there is such a thing as human nature too you know?

Why are you also so convinced about the Tories? Can you not at least consider that some of the things the First Minister says tend to upset people and there comes a point where they change their mind? I must confess that the only people I know who are politically active are indeed Tories who aren't very comfortable about keeping the SNP in power. (Please note I'm not a Tory member and only now vote for them at Westminster elections because of the EU issue.)
233

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28/01/2009 18:28:03
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Nevsky;,

Moscow 28/01/2009 18:29:14
260 Miss H#

At least the tories have a somewhat mature attitude towards the Scottish Parliament.

Labour have never forgiven the SNP for winning the election and will continue to do what they can, even every dirty trick in the book to bring the SNP down...they are a disgrace and quite clearly not fit to govern in Scotland (neither will they for 10 years at least).

Lib Dems are a non-entity who are falling apart and are not credible as anything other than a sympathy vote!
235

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28/01/2009 19:09:32
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FrankyB,

Alba 28/01/2009 19:19:24
What can I say?

Labour continues to show all the venom and malice normally only displayed by today's monolithic religions and their death-grip on Scotland is slowly but surely slipping as this nation's confidence in her own ability grows.

The Liberals are reduced to political Uria Heeps skulking in the background humbled and browbeaten by in their fatal attraction to Labour. The things parties do for power. How embarrasing for them.

The Greens turned down 22 Millions for their projects. How very silly!

Cons? They are still the devil we know but at least they continue to leave us under no illusions and we know where we stand with them.

The unionists will be routed at the next Scottish election. Bring it on!
237

Eve,

Scotland 28/01/2009 20:27:18
#263 G Laird: It's the MSP's you should be telling this too!

We'll need to buy the news papers before they start loseing the biasum towards the unionist parties.
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28/01/2009 22:58:09
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28/01/2009 23:33:34
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28/01/2009 23:41:25
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Ewan Randall,

29/01/2009 06:37:17
(#195) – (frank mcbride) – Where is that I said I didn’t know of the good work the SNP had done increasing their share of the vote?

In your estimation how much of a swing was there in the last few days of the Glenrothes by-election to take the SNP and their self confessed expectations from their lead in the polls to the position they eventually ended up in?

If you are talking about a swing to the SNP, and you have proven evidence, why would you believe what you say to be conjecture?

Isn’t proven evidence proof and not conjecture?

Why do you think those parties wouldn’t put their differences a part to show the SNP, and Scotland, what a coalition government is capable of when they put their minds to it?

Do you not say these unionist parties are all the same?

Do you not think they could so without any outward sign of interference being shown to work from Westminster?








 

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