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Refinery strike: battle for hearts and minds

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Published Date: 28 April 2008
IN THE half-light of 6am, the silent, flag-bearing workers emerged from a place where dawn mist met industrial steam, their faces set like the steel of the refinery behind them.
This was not a day of celebration for union members caught up in the pensions strike at Grangemouth oil refinery. They were workers weighed down by the knowledge that this has become a battle for hearts and minds – and who realise if the effects of their action tip over into fuel shortages or rising petrol costs, any public support they have will quickly ebb away.

The dispute, being played out on a very public stage, stepped up a gear as Unite launched an advertising campaign in national newspapers revealing "The Truth About Ineos", the chemical firm which owns the site. The cost of the adverts will run into tens of thousands of pounds, while Ineos is combating the union view by adding to its in-house media team with the expertise of a London PR agency. Media Zoo includes HSBC, the Arcadia Group and Argos among its clients. It is also a production company, with other firms such as Marks & Spencer and Prudential using them for commercials.

It looks increasingly like a question of who will blink first. On the ground, grim voices employed fighting talk, describing the firm as "liars" and its chairman, multi-billionaire Jim Ratcliffe, as a coward. If anyone was expecting compromise, they were disappointed.

Last night PR experts said the stand-off was increasingly developing into a battle to win over public opinion. Nora Senior, managing director of Weber Shandwick Scotland, said: "Public opinion will be affected once this starts to hit practicalities, such as shortage of petrol. We can't have small businesses suffering and people not getting to work. If this has a major impact on the economy, the unions will lose support.

"The employers are in a different position. Their position is to ensure they are seen to be trying to establish an open dialogue."

With no end in sight, overseas fuel was shipped in to combat panic-buying and a summit involving Alex Salmond and Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, may take place as early as today.

The closure of the plant means the vital Forties pipeline, which supplies a third of the North Sea oil, sputtered to a standstill at a cost of £50 million a day.

As sunrise reflected off the plant's huge chimneys, Mark Lyons, the co-convener of the Unite union, paused to say: "It's just extremely, disappointing. This refinery has operated for almost 80 years without any industrial action at all. Within two years (since Ineos bought it from BP] the country is in deadlock and we had to take this course of action we are reluctant to take."

Mr Lyons said the union had insisted on maintaining safety at the plant during the shutdown and workers were providing unpaid cover.

On the edge of the refinery, which takes in about 750,000 barrels of oil a day, BP's Kinneil plant, where the majority of the oil is stabilised for shipment, was quiet. It runs off Grangemouth's utilities and Ineos has blamed unions for not providing enough power to keep it going. But Mr Lyons said: "The company asked us for an amount of steam for safety. As part of Acas talks, this is the only agreement we reached. This is not enough for Kinneil."

He led his members, armed with flags and placards blaring out condemnations, to the union offices.

There, Michael Grant, a 29-year-old safety representative, said: " It's a serious matter, it's about our pensions. No-one wanted this, but the fact is (Ratcliffe] has and flexed his muscles. It's bully boy tactics."

Cars hooted what workers took to be support for the action – but it is clear that public support is on a knife-edge. Kirsty McGrellis, 29, another safety representative, admitted there was a "mixed bag" of opinion nationally, but said: "I think there's lot of support locally. A wee thumbs-up keeps you going. It's not the union bringing the country to a standstill."

She said under the pension proposal, she would have to work an extra five years and lose £1,600, but added: "It's not about our pensions. It's the future generations of pensions. We are fighting for the future."

Ineos has said it has to end the "Rolls-Royce" non-contributory final-salary pension scheme to ensure the future global competitiveness of Grangemouth. It also wants to close the scheme to new members and replace it with a defined contribution plan.

Petrol prices remained fairly static, according to The Scotsman snapshot survey of stations. A number reported stocks drying up, while others did not know when the next delivery would be. One station in Winchburgh, West Lothian, said it had run out of both diesel and unleaded on Saturday and was not expecting to get supplies until the end of the week. Petrol prices ranged from just over £1, to a high of £1.10, with many garages saying their charge had not changed despite demand.

At an 11am rally in front of the union offices, Michael Connarty, MP for Linlithgow and East Falkirk, said Ineos was "telling lies".

He issued a direct plea to Mr Ratcliffe to meet him, pointing out that he had been very keen for discussion when he wanted to buy the plant. "Where are you hiding, Jim?" he demanded.

Pat Rafferty, Unite regional officer, told a crowd of family members: "It's a bitter battle, but with your help and support we've had all the way along, we will win this.

Earlier, he told The Scotsman: "This is not a joyful occasion for our members."

Richard Longden, of Ineos, agreed it was "a very sad day for Grangemouth", but insisted: "We have done everything in negotiations and meetings to bend over backwards to provide concessions to the unions to prevent strike action."

He said the firm was "trying to ensure the long-term future of Grangemouth as a site" and had ploughed in more than £100 million since buying it.

SO WHAT HAPPENS NOW? THE OPTIONS

Back to Acas talks


Both Ineos and Unite have said their respective doors are open, but they have not resumed discussions since the Acas talks broke down in the middle of last week. If they were to enter talks, industrial action should be suspended for their duration, meaning the plant could get up and running. The Scottish Government has offered both sides the services of the president of the Faculty of Actuaries, Stewart Ritchie, to come up with a fair pensions package.

Union capitulates

If Unite were to accept the terms offered by the company, it would mean an eventual end to the final-salary pension scheme. Such a non-contributory scheme is rare now and the union says its loss would give other firms the green light to lose theirs. Tens of thousands of Scots still enjoy the benefits of final-salary pensions. Under the original proposals from Ineos, existing employees would also have to start contributing to their pensions.

Company capitulates

If Ineos gives in to the union's demands, the plant gets up and running again, the oilfields reopen and fuel supplies to Scotland and the north of England return to normal. However, Ineos says that if it continues to pay out as it has been - with claims that pensions account for 25 per cent of its spending on employees - the firm will not be able to invest in Grangemouth to improve its profitability. It claims this will lead to job losses in the future.

More strikes

Because the union has gone on strike within 28 days of balloting its members, it is now free to take more action as and when it wishes. It has to serve seven days' notice on the company first. However, Unite officials yesterday insisted they had no plans for further, or escalated, action - although they did not rule it out in the future. Depending on when it happened, a further walkout would hamper the process of getting Grangemouth back up and running.

The full article contains 1362 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Angus Ogg,

27/04/2008 23:20:05

Alex Salmond, has said nearly 65,000 tonnes were due at the Forth over the strike period.

We're now in the strike period. Just checked the AIS Sat System and no signs of 65,000 tonnes of fuel being delivered. In fact no signs of even anything with a couple of jerry cans on it.

http://www.shipais.com/currentmap.php?map=Forth

Deserted, just deserted.
2

Dileas,

28/04/2008 00:16:20
Time for the workers to get real - they are lucky to have their final year persnion scheme retained other than for new recruits. This shop steward seems to be trying to make a name for himself like Arthur Scargill, and it was Arthur's workers who suffered!

Get back to work - ditch your shop steward!
3

Padraig,

28/04/2008 00:19:48
These well-paid workers don't know how lucky they are. Get real and ditch this useless strike, otherwise we will have not time for you, just as you are less than concerned for us. And don't tell me you are doing it for the future workers - they can join or refuse to; it's their choice.

There are very few final salary schemes now open to new entrants, even in contributory pension schemes.
4

Senga Jean,

Scotland 28/04/2008 00:40:53
This dispute has an unintended consequence. It confirms that pace McCrone Scotland is being shafted and we are not being subsidised. Scotland must become INDEPENDENT.
5

Laird o' Glenrothes,

28/04/2008 01:37:05
Sorry guys, I'd love to support you in the fight against pension changes. My own pension was changed recently, and if you look at what's being going on over the last 10 years (since Gordon Brown changed tax laws on pensions), most people's pensions have changed too.

This strike will do nothing for you. Your salaries are well above the norm in Central Scotland. Eat humble pie, guys.
6

Manila,

Makati 28/04/2008 02:24:35
Nobody wants to give up a benefit they have been used to getting. However, I suspect this very generous pension scheme really is unsustainable. Just look at the U.S. car industry as an example of how unsustainable retirement benefits (heathcare in their case) will eventually cause serious problems for all employees of the company.

Whether Ineos can get creative in offering some sort of on-off payment, or whatever, is another question. However, I think the Union needs to get its head out of the sand.
7

Edward,

28/04/2008 02:46:40
Interesting snippet from the Dail Mail
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=562289&in_page_id=1770

'In March last year, Ineos received £9million from the Scottish Executive to safeguard 410 jobs at Grangemouth'

By all accounts Jim Radcliffe the majority shareholder of Ineos is a complete bar steward who like to manipulate and get his own way
He has a record of hold the UK government to ransom, which he did over the ICI plant at Runcorn, when he threatened to close it unleaa the government gave him millions.

After watching an interview last night with an Ineos spokesman, I also get the strong impression that Eneos are trying the same thing with Grangemouth with vague threats of closure (permanent closure that is) unless this dispute is settled to Eneos satisfaction. Its about time Gordon Brown got off his fat backside and started making threats of his own against Eneos, or is he willing for Grangemouth to be used as a pawn by Radcliffe
8

subrosa,

28/04/2008 02:52:28
# 1

Thanks for that site. There are quite a few tankers round Aberdeen right at the moment.
9

subrosa,

28/04/2008 02:56:57
# 7

'Its about time Gordon Brown got off his fat backside and started making threats of his own against Eneos, or is he willing for Grangemouth to be used as a pawn by Radcliffe'

Gordon Brown will do anything to bring Scotland to book right now.

Hopefully Alex Salmond will look into how this type of thing can be stopped by the likes of Radcliffe. Tells you a lot about his strategy doesn't it when he's subsidised by the taxpayer.

It's been quite an eye opener this strike in many ways. Not least that our oil should be privatised plus of course the amount of money it makes for the UK Treasury.
10

W Smith,

Middle East 28/04/2008 03:53:38
So the SNP voters think this strike is an issue for Westminter then eh?

You mean like Trident and the Iraq War?

Muscovy Duckman has spent most of his time meddling in issues that were outside his authority as First Minister.

Now we have lazy militants bringing the nation to a standstill and Salmond has decided, very conveniently, its Gordon Brown's problem.

YOU'RE NOT ON DUCKMAN!
11

W Smith,

Middle East 28/04/2008 04:00:13
In the early eighties, President Ronald Reagan sacked every air traffic controller that went on strike.

He brought in the military and got the air traffic going again.

These lazy gits at Grangemouth have a 'right' to go on strike but don't have a right to bring the nation to its knees.

BTW
In the Soviet Union it was illegal to form or be a member of a Trade Union.

Is that what attracted Salmond to the radical left wing 79 Group then?
12

William of Liberton,

EDINBURGH 28/04/2008 04:09:50
4 Senga Jean,

You are quite correct: this dispute reveals just how much of Scotland's oil is pouring into Grangemouth, earning masive profit for global conglomerates, and huge taxation revenue for Westminster (to pay for illegal wars and the purchase of weapons of mass destruction).

Now that we are being governed in Scotland by Scots for Scots, it is high time we were given independent control of our fiscal economy and foreign policy too.
13

Trade-wind,

USA 28/04/2008 05:59:16
To all of you who are telling these guys to give up because they already make a good living, blah blah blah.
If it weren't for guys just like them years ago standing out in the cold and rain to make gains for future workers and insure a decent living wage and pensions all of you would be living less well. Unions have brought the standard of living up for all. Oh yes!
The preasure of rising wages on non union employers has forced up wages for all over the years. There used to be the wealthy and the poor. Unions forced a change to that and provided for the wages that made a middle class. Quit crying and surrendering and and asking these guys to give up. If you don't support them, all Scots will suffer more than the inconvenience you are feeling now. Everytime a company takes away some thing like pay or pension benifits, other companies look at it and use it as a wedge the next time their company negotiates with workers. Who do you think will suffer when they take these things away. Not just the union worker. Every employer union or not will ask, no demand that their workers take a cut as well. These guys are trying to secure a better future for your sons and daughters or grandchildren who will follow them into the jobs they leave. Act like men and women who have a little backbone. Support these guys and your future.
I hear a lot of talk about independance, well to get it you will have to suffer a little in the process. Will you have no more stomach for that fight than you do for your future.
14

,

28/04/2008 06:01:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
15

SeriouslyAmused,

Ayr 28/04/2008 06:19:27
#1 - That site doesn't always have the data. It will depend on others with equipment supplying it. At the moment my own AIS shows a number of vessels in the Forth whilst theirs only shows one. BRO DEVELOPER, named in the Scottish Govt press release, is one of the vessels showing.
16

Itchy,

28/04/2008 06:36:11
#13 "Unions have brought the standard of living up for all. Oh yes!
"

Rubbish.

Unions are always calling for more tax, more spending and more government which lowers living standards for the country but gives them more power.
17

,

28/04/2008 06:55:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
18

Aesop,

Edinburgh 28/04/2008 07:32:53
An English billionaire versus Scottish workers? It's a no-brainer who to support. Get stuck in Unite, and bring this greedy moneygrubbing speculator to his senses.
19

GP,

28/04/2008 07:39:07
I can't believe what I am reading here.
Jealous spineless people the no hope left brigade want these guys to give up a hard fought right for future generations. You are pathetic and are probably the types who stood by and allowed your final salary schemes to disappear without as much as a wimper.

These hard fought for benefits are not to be given away lightly. We should all be demading the same schemes not lowerring our standards to accommodate the rich who already have even better benefits.
Grow some hehaws you guys every worker in Scotland should have the same basic pension scheme, one like the ex BP staff. The civil service and local and national politicians. Why do you think you do not deserve this?
UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!

The current pemsions for sale are nothing more than 40 year endowments and could perform exactly the same.
Don't be taken in demand a better structure for your retirement and you kids and on and on.

You forefathers would be disgusted by your statements.
20

C.,

28/04/2008 07:43:31
with almost everything i have read in the press and heard on the news, i think Ineos is offering a fair deal to these guys, and following the line which most other big companies are doing and closing the final salary pension schemes. i have never been lucky enough to have a final salary scheme so i don't know what i'm missing, as would most for the 'FUTURE' people who join Ineos will do. I think these Union reps and the shop steward are just out to make a name for themelves and in my view, all the are going to do is ruin it all for the long term of present staff, future staff and the future of the site. Salaries above the normal, they should all get with the real world and be happy that they actually have a job. I for one do not support this strike at all.
21

Non!!,

East Britain 28/04/2008 07:45:29
Public sympathy is going fast and will not survive inconvenience to the public let alone damage to the economy.Back to work!!Now.

This is a throwback to the Scargill days and is just not acceptable.
22

conservative,

Fife 28/04/2008 07:46:05
So these jerks think that they should get wonderful pension schemes paid for by the rest of us eh? They should all have joined the local council where you don't even need to turn up for work to get your bullet-proof publically-subsidised free lunch.
23

bbbadger,

28/04/2008 07:59:17
#7
your right INEOS took money from the scottish taxpayer to build a bio diesel plant and did not build it.Dont hear them telling the media that story.Is that FRAUD.
24

bbbadger,

28/04/2008 08:03:38
The multi billionaire owner is not for negotiating,he has just imposed his will telling the employees the pension scheme is closed to new workers and he dosen't plan to close it to existing workers unless market conditions change....thats reassuring
25

Langenburger,

28/04/2008 08:05:30
Lions led by a donkey.

The new Arthur Scaqrgill will sell his boys down the river on his quest to become famous!

Unite against him guys!
26

brownlie,

28/04/2008 08:10:40
Having watched the Politics show yesterday some facts became apparent.

The non-contributory pension was agreed between management and unions to compensate for lower wages.

When Ineos took over they agreed with the unions and the local MP that the previous agreement would be adhered to.

Ineos claimed that further investment could not go ahead under present conditions.

Their spokesman repeatedly refused to put a figure on the savings their plans would generate but it is clear that this was tiny compared to the money they claim to need for investment. The spokesman, however, was implying that this action prevented further investment.

Ineos have a track record of trying, and often succeeding, in forcing subsidies from the government.

As far as the union's position is concerned they are obviously reluctant to give up wages in order to prove a point but they, obviously, see this as the thin edge of the wedge and that, if the company are able to adversely affect their conditions in this instance, it follows like night after day that they will further erode pay and conditions.

It appears that the company hope to gain in two ways. If their actions are successful they will be able to ride rough-shod over the union and the work force. If the strike really begins to bite on the public they will be able to hold the government to ransom for compensatory funds and funds for future investment.

It also raises the question of why one of the richest men in the country can claim grants for the government. It is doubtful if any of the workers qualify for government largesse of this nature.
27

carrottop,

Dumfries 28/04/2008 08:11:57
Is LINDSAY McINTOSH sleeping with a Grangemouth striker?
28

Roy,

28/04/2008 08:12:30
Seems to me like Ineos is holding everyone to ransom. How does a situation arise where one company can have so much power? Had anyone ever heard of them a week ago?
29

GP,

28/04/2008 08:14:17
25# can you even read?
The pension changes will not affetc the existing employees so how can this be selfish?
Typical of the modern spineless voter.
30

hibbydoug,

edinburgh 28/04/2008 08:21:29
Ineos are obviously not fit to run such a plant-nationalise it !!! and give them nothing.
31

Nebulous,

Aberdeen 28/04/2008 08:29:19
Of course people want a final salary pension. The reason many people have lost them though is that the liabilities are very difficult to quantify.

To the person who says that a defined contributions scheme is like a 40 year endowment - yes it is. However a final salary pension is also like a 40 year endowment for the company - with them being obliged to top it up if there is a shortfall. Many local authorities were paying 11-13% of salary into pension schemes 10 years ago. The employees were paying 6% Now many local authorities are paying 20% + and employees are still paying 6%. Ineos claim the pension costs could rise to 50% on top of the wages bill.

I am absolutely convinced that as huge numbers of baby boomers retire many final salary pensions will never be paid at the rates expected. Public sector employees will be paid out at a percentage - say 70% of expected benefits. Either that or the state pension will not be paid on top as it is at the moment. This is exactly the same as endowments, private pensions and property prices. The promises given to and expectations people have is unachievable.
32

Phil C,

28/04/2008 08:41:52
The vast majority of the pensioned UK working population has accepted far greater changes to their pensions, with reason and without hissy fits, than those proposed to these pampered pooches. They seem to see themselves above the rest of us. I wish the workers would realise the error of their union's ways and ditch them.

Thanks to the lack of negotiation skills of these self-seeking union representatives we now have stalemate. The employer has given up practically all their correct and fair proposals. The dinosaur union has budged not one inch!! They know they have muscle, given the need for fuel. They have abused that and should be punished for it. Salmond might do something were he not just leader of Scotland's talking shop. At present all he can do is dispense wise words to this Labour union. Are they for listening...come on! They want to cause as much trouble and nuisance for everyone as possible.

So it comes down to the man who, as prime minister, does have the authority to act against these unreasonable bandits. Will he! The Sahara will freeze over before old rubber jaws does something, so we'll all just have to sit it out and hope that Labour and all their out-dated practices get voted out very soon.

33

kennyy,

disbelief 28/04/2008 08:46:19
The real story for me here is that there are estimates of loss in revenue to westminster of £50mil/day! If this is 30-40% of the flow from the north sea then are we not looking at the very least roughly £100mil/day i.e. £35 billion/year! These are rough figures but surely in getting a budget of £30bil/yr to play with we (scots) must be getting taken for a ride here by london.

God knows how scots still vote for the union with this blatant p*ss taking. We must be the most stupid or gullable people on the planet.

Can't wait for Alex salmond to get stuck in.

34

Braesbear,

28/04/2008 09:02:21
Connarty is having a laugh with his "where are you hiding Jim" the same could be said about him as I doubt if there was ever a more anonymous MP.

At the end of the day this dispute must stop. In todays real world pension schemes like this are unheard of. They staff at Ineos need to realise that and accept that you must pay for part of your pension like the rest of us and new employees should be offered a modern style pension scheme.

its a tough old world out there.

35

JimC,

Kilmarnock 28/04/2008 09:06:18
The whole senario is quite interesting. Are the company hoping for a hand-out from government? Therefore to negotiate a settlement with workers would not be in their favour at this time. As for the workers, I note no one mentions the 6% contribution workers are being asked to make to their pensions (can't remember where I read that). Agree or not that is a change in T&C in effect a wage cut. I also note the figures quoted by many about how much oil is worth each day to the westminster government, no wonder Brown does not want Independence for Scotland, wake up folks and look at the bigger picture here.
36

Farmernot,

28/04/2008 09:13:13
#38 Spot on......an outdated approach to tackling todays real issues on pensions........Where does Wendy stand on this..........the Mooth is awfy quiet right now
37

Phil C,

28/04/2008 09:27:32
#41 JimC

The 6% thing is away. The company has removed it and all the other conditions, apart from their proposal of not allowing new employees to join this non-contributory final salary scheme.

All the arguments have been gone over a hundred times, so there's no point starting again. As ever it comes down to the entreched situation between those who support the workers and those who don't. In this case the workers have little support because they are being unreasonable. Unfortunately the union has too much power in a situation like this and we will all be made to suffer, unless Gordon Brown removes his digit from his posterior and does something constructive. I won't hold my breath!
38

Scotish Exile,

28/04/2008 09:29:44
strikers get real and plese come down from cloud cuckoo land "non-contributory final-salary pension scheme"...do you realise how lucky you are, I ahve to contribute a % of my salary every month into a pension scheme and I hope that when I retire there is enough for me to live on. Oh to have the luxury of knowing what you will receive when you retire and you contributed hee haw to it in the first place. Get abck to work now!!!
39

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 28/04/2008 09:34:02
#12 William of Liberton "Now that we are being governed in Scotland by Scots for Scots, it is high time we were given independent control of our fiscal economy and foreign policy too"

Your statement gives a profound insight into the narrow bigoted world of nationalism and its xenophobic obsessions. Firstly - the job of a government is to represent ALL the people - and there are many, many people who live in Scotland who are not 'Scots'.

Secondly, the profound crisis we are facing in the UK has been largely brought about by 'Scots': Blair, Brown, Cook, Darling, - all of them 'Scots'. The entire UK has been ruled by the tartan mafia since 1998 and just look at the state we are in: illegal wars, robbed pension funds, collapsing banks, runaway inflation, union strikes.

Can you not get it through your heather-filled skull that in a multi-ethnic society - anyone who demands that government be run upon 'ethnic' or 'nationalist' lines for the benefit of one group is heading down the same road as Somalia, Kosovo, Serbia.
40

Sedov,

Scotland 28/04/2008 09:38:43
Workers do not go on strike because they feel like it but because they are forced to by ruthless corporate decisions which are designed to maximise profits at the workers expense. Well done and victory to the Ineos workers -you are fighting for all of us.
41

mike3,

midlands 28/04/2008 09:44:09
#45

well said, some people don't understand what they wish for.
42

Edward,

28/04/2008 09:45:40
No sign of the supposed convoy of tankers, only three showing
‘Border Tartan’, ‘Alsterstern’ & ‘Bro Developer’
43

brownlie,

28/04/2008 09:47:53
25 Happy english

You must be the boss of the company if it's you that pays the employees. The workers do not get paid from taxes. They get paid from the exorbitant money that they earn for their employer. You contradict yourself in saying in one posting that they are paid more than the rest of us and then you say they are PROBABLY paid more.

Perhaps we should go back to the system where hard-working people will do what they are told by their employers and accept, with a tug on the forelock, the worsening of conditions imposed by the fat-cats.

Do you really think that workers who have never involved themselves in industrial action for over 50 years take this step lightly.

If it was not for the hard fought for conditions negotiated by unions we would all be existing on far less than the ridiculous minimum wage with no security of employment.
44

cat1903,

scotland 28/04/2008 09:58:23
#43

The 6% thing is not away,nor are any of the other changes the company want to make to existing employees. When Ineos say they have taken these changes off the table, they forget to add they have only postponed them for 3 months.

The arguments may have been gone over a hundred times but it seems the true facts still aren't reaching some people.
45

David Eyesdale,

Melbourne, Australia 28/04/2008 09:59:21
I know a guy who worked there and resigned because his workmates told him to slow down, he was going too fast at his job and management would expect them all to do as much.

They need to get back to work. To have a dispute over the rights of future workers seems silly to say the least.
46

Hamish Simpson,

Leith 28/04/2008 10:01:00

Very Simple:
1. Unions are behind the times and need to recognise what is going on in the big bad world
2. Staff are being hoodwinked by the unions and being very greedy. Their ill-informed arguments are damaging a number of Scottish businesses.
3. Demonstrates why Scotland annot go it alone
4. If the staff do not want to work then just replace them with staff down South
47

David Eyesdale,

Melbourne, Australia 28/04/2008 10:03:08
One point of interest is that South and North of the border are now seeing the true worth of Scotland to both the union and the economy.

This one's got legs and it's going to run all the way to the top.
48

,

28/04/2008 10:06:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
49

Venachar,

28/04/2008 10:11:51
Sedov

Who exactly forced the Unite members to go on strike? Did anyone push them out the door? Are they still being paid? Has the consultation period finished?

If BP were so wonderfull why did they sell it?

If Ineos had not bought the plant 1200 and more workers would have no job and be waiting for their pensions now.

This plant has had cost of living increases and pay rises over the years. The oil price is high at present but there is no guarantee that it will always be. How can any company agree to downside which cannot be quantified and is justified on the current oil price.

So, Sedov next time you get benefits say thanks to the poor workers who are paying for your welfare state lifestyle.

And as for Tradewind from the USA

When you manage to organise and run a health service for all your citizens and stop blasting all and sundry with you 50 calibres I may just listen to what you have to say.


50

donald anderson it's me,

28/04/2008 10:14:37
The oil companies no more have the hearts and minds of the people of Scotland than their Labour numpty pals in Westmonster. They have done nothing fr Scotland
51

David Eyesdale,

Melbourne, Australia 28/04/2008 10:18:16
Wrt future workers pension conditions, here's the mail:

If they're not satisfied with the terms and conditions, they need not accept. I'm tipping that for the salaries on offer, they'll fill the posts no worries.
52

Fairfax,

28/04/2008 10:27:25
interstellarmince (62): "The BBC URL is propaganda crap."

Have you read the URL? The article by Davies is fairly positive for Scottish economics post-independence: he estimates a small, but easily managed deficit, and the advantages of a smaller defence budget and lower corporation tax. Not the nirvana of some estimates, but definitely an economic plus.
53

Sedov,

Scotland 28/04/2008 10:33:26
#57 Venechar the days of doffing your cap to the bosses because you are so grateful to have a job are gone. Its the market and profit that dictates peoples lives and if Ineos had not bought it from BP them some other company would have. I can smell the fear that you and the bosses at Ineos have that strikes like this will spread - but then you can go down to the picket line and tell them how wrong they are - won't you!
54

brownlie,

28/04/2008 10:35:26
52 David

So you know a guy who worked there who was told to slow down.

Strange that the Sun head-lined that about the steel workers and head-lined exactly the same story about the miners during their strike.
55

bluehead,

edinburgh 28/04/2008 10:40:46
it would seem that even some of the brittish people will critisise workers who have the courage to stand up for themselves,if more people had supported the people who were fighting to keep their pension rights/the employers would not have got away with closing there final pension.
it would seem that many brittish people have become as diseased as the labour goverment,who have destroyed this country,any day now this, once great country,will be flushed down the toilet bowl.
it would seem that is their final direction!!!
56

Pomodora,

Gravesend 28/04/2008 10:41:17
Grangemouth workers, do try to ignore the Union bashing that dominates in above comments. Scottish workers are the backbone of Industrial Democracy and you are following in the tradition. Stay with it and don't give up your right to strike and unlike many of your critics who believe that half a loaf is better than none show them that it isn't. In Solidarity with Digniy!
57

TrevorD,

Ipswich 28/04/2008 10:53:05
"Under the original proposals from Ineos, existing employees would also have to start contributing to their pensions."
-------------------------------------------------------

Wake up guys - this is hardly an ourage ! The world has changed since your fellow countryman Prudence Brown made his tax raid on all of our pension funds.

There are virtually NO non-contributory final salary pension schemes remaining now.

The employers want YOU to contribute to YOUR pension scheme like most other people ? YES, so you damned well should. (Even Local Government and Civil Service employees pay towards theirs!) Because if you don't pay towards your pension, WE the other taxpapers, will pay your share in the form of higher prices.

And frankly fellas, we just ain't up for that.

Get back to work and enjoy your above average salaries.
58

ValdasTheMan,

Edinburgh 28/04/2008 10:53:10
1200 workers who are on a final salary pension should not be capable of bringing Scotland to a standstill. Their pension is not at risk, so why are they striking? The majority of people working in the private sector do not have a pension scheme as generous as they have. Sack the lot of them, there are plenty others willing to do their job.
59

Sanny,

28/04/2008 11:01:24
This would seem to be a return to the “ugly side of capital" in the shape of Mr Ratcliffe!

The record shows this man to be ruthless and prone to bullying both workers and governments. If he gets away with changing the pension rights of the Grangemouth workers then perhaps the taxpayers should insist on similar action on public service and MP’s pensions! If the most profitable business can’t afford a final salary scheme then how are the taxpayers to afford these INDEX LINKED final salary pension?

Our government needs to tell Ratcliffe that he must return the money given to him to fund a project that he has scrapped. They should also tell him that either they will nationalise his plant or fund an alternative plant in competition.

The only way to deal with this kind of bully is to hurt his pocket and hard!
60

Koffindodger,

Edinburgh 28/04/2008 11:01:52
It's difficult to support the unions on this one as none of their actual members are suffering on this.

They will get to keep their excellent pension which contrary to what some of the posters have said here will still be excellent when they retire.

As for the pension being offered to future employees being somehow substandard to industry averages when taken in conjunction with salaries there, thats probably drivel.

Lets however assume that is true, what usually happens when a skilled, mobile candidate is offered a below par package for a job?; they don't take the job!

The company then either chooses not to hire or it ups the salary.

Problem solved, no sensible need to strike other than to "do a Scargill".

61

,

28/04/2008 11:02:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
62

Koffindodger,

Edinburgh 28/04/2008 11:03:35
68 interstellarmince,

I tried to post things on the Herald and they never appeared; turned out to be the settings on my laptop as opposed to a CONSPIRACY.
63

Sanny,

28/04/2008 11:06:58
71 ValdasTheMan
Obviously you were brought up in the school of “Pull the ladder up Jack, I’m inboard”.

As you so rightly point out these workers are not fighting for their own selfish gain. NO! They are putting their money where their mouth is and fighting to protect the interests of future workers.

If ever a strike could be described as altruistic this is it!!
64

Fairfax,

28/04/2008 11:09:30
interstellarmince (68): "I read it, yes. Still pure propaganda."

It seemed rather positive for the Scottish economy to me, and not too different from several SNP estimates. Still, each to his own. I agree that the BBC heavily moderate their forum, but that's because they're so tediously political correct.

"The English Broadcasting Corp and all the other media channels are controlled from London (New-Troy)."

If only that were so! Still, I'm more interested in your view of London as New-Troy -- surely almost nobody reads Geoffrey of Monmouth in Scotland? Perhaps you should read "1066 and All That" instead.
65

Mikey,

28/04/2008 11:10:37
Amazing to note the jealousy on this board. Just because you don't have something, you don't want anybody else to have it? You're all bl00dy Stalinists! Stalin's USSR functioned the same way as all these jealous posters would like to see Scotland. Jail for strikers and if your neighbour had something you didn't have, then contact the secret police!

As I said, what a load of Stalinists.
66

Sanny,

28/04/2008 11:10:45
70 TrevorD
Trevor how much does your MP contribute to his pension?

67

redpadds,

norfolk 28/04/2008 11:19:13
#3 the workers may get paid a high amount, but many of them work with carsonagenics and the cancer rate is higher than most other industries, so a good pension is only fair as many of these workers may not survive as long as other industries, so they may get less in total
68

Venachar,

28/04/2008 11:31:47
#64 Sedov

In case you've not noticed a lot of jobs have gone too, shipyards, steel, coal and other manufacturing.

You can bet your bottom dollar the the rest of Scotland will still have fuel when Grangemouth closes.
The only people that Mr Ratcliffe and Ineos answer to are his bankers and finaciers. Wake up and smell the coffee!

Instead of going on about your class struggle try answering some of the questions. I think the Unite members are wrong. Neither do I see the need to waste fuel to drive to Grangemouth, I can do what you suggest quite easily here.

69

NorT,

Edinburgh 28/04/2008 11:33:48
Sack all those on strike.I wish I had a pension packet like those workers have. They are as bad as the miners thinking they have a job for life and for their children. Get real and into the modern world.
70

Walter Ego,

Durness 28/04/2008 11:38:11
What a bunch of Thatcherites.
71

bbbadger,

28/04/2008 11:42:21
These billionaires should be able to sack workers who will not accept inferior terms.Furthermore they should be allowed to impose minimum wage, maybe even hire poor immigrant workers on less than minimum wages. Then the present workers can go on benefits and live off the taxes of all their detractors on this site. At what point is it justified to stand up to your employers whims.
72

Dumb Eye @,

28/04/2008 11:44:05
This matter has demonstrated that Scotland has a high proportion of small-minded, mean-spirited, self centred individuals.
Just because some of you don't have something, you see no reason for others to have it - for the record, I am in a private sector non-contributory, final salary pension scheme, should I give this up just to keep the moaners happy? I also earn more than the average salary, should I also give all the extra away?
BTW, applying a little bit of thought (doesn't seem to happen on these boards very often) will bring the realisation that in any situation where an average exists, some figures will fall above it, and some below.
73

bbbadger,

28/04/2008 11:56:35
I wonder if these billionaires will be on the front line of any future wars they engineer to protect their interest or will it be some worker they have stolen a pension from.
74

Nippy sweetie,

28/04/2008 12:09:12
If it wasn't for all these big businessman a lot of this mob wouldn't have any jobs to go to, end of story. And I don't think BP would've kept this ridiculous pension scheme either.

Get real. The man built Ineos from nothing. What do you all contribute? How many jobs have you created?

Why can't we get over this rich man jealousy, and focus on the issues of the unsustainable pension scheme.

It is no coincidence other companies have stopped schemes. We cannot run a competitive economy with this sort of attitude.
75

pwd,

Hawick 28/04/2008 12:09:53
*45 Tweedmouth

Well spoken, but I fear it will fall on stony ground; rational thought is not at a premium among Nationalist ranks.
76

bbbadger,

28/04/2008 12:10:59
#87
Your right and with the recent trend of selling private pensions to the likes of L+G or the PRU,once the fund managers have taken their bonus and lost some of it in sub prime SIVs there won't be a lot left for the working man. Because make no mistake once this Jim Ratcliffe closes these workers scheme it will be sold for a tidy profit to the likes of the above.
77

Padraig,

28/04/2008 12:16:33
Interesting to see a number of "pro" striker comments emerging now. (Strikers got out of bed now?)

Interesting too to see how many "pro" comments refer to billionaires and class warfare, "working man's rights" etc - this strike is Left-politically motivated, inspired and executed - even to the banners and workers' marches, all intended to whip up strong feeling!

Interesting too, to see the repeated references to envy of the grangemouth workers' pension rights, as though the rest of us want them to do without something we can't have. As though these benefits, removed by Gordon Brown's annual tax raids on pension funds, aren't something just not achievable in today's tax environment.
78

Venachar,

28/04/2008 12:35:14
Padraig

Yeh funny that, shift sleeping patterns, remember them well.
If Unite were that good as a Union why have they had to amalgamate with many others to be where they are today.
Could it be that the majority of people in non unionised facilities are getting better deals.

BTW have a look at the Unite site in particular the "Ineos Pensions Rip Off".

Who's telling the lies General Secretary Simpson!
79

brownlie,

28/04/2008 12:38:54
91 Nippy

Tripe he did not build this from nothing. He took it over with the help of government funding and is looking for more of your money and my money to keep him in the style to which he has become accustomed. At the time he agreed, under TUPE regulations, not to alter the workers conditions of service. If he employs worker without the benefits of pension he will have to pay them more as compensation and this will lead to a two tier divided work force. Manager love a divided work force.

Industrial relations history shows that if he is allowed to trample over employee rights others will surely follow.

80

Calum Crubag,

28/04/2008 12:39:10
#10 W Smith- I agree. This plant should be nationalised asap. The company's profits can then be used to provide good public services as not just very rich shareholders.
81

Doh,

28/04/2008 12:47:22


I only hope that this bad publicity doesnt put Trump off making a zillion pound investment in a driving range.
82

Huvnaea,

Dunfermline 28/04/2008 12:58:45
Isn't it strange that when the going gets tough or perhaps controversial how the silence from the Alex Salmond is deafening. Strikes are obviously not a populist issue.
Come Alex & SNP show us you really can govern and take on the real issues of the day other than nice but ultimately unimportant issues.
Or have you sold out to big business as well just like New Labour did?
83

Venachar,

28/04/2008 13:05:44
Huvnaea

For the umpteenth time, this is a reserved issue for London.
The Scottish Government has offered the facility of an arbitrator which has been rejected - please see both parties websites.
Alex Salmond does not have to do a thing! This suits Alex - see what happens Mr Brown when you behave in a small minded way to the country's duly elected leader.
It comes back and bites you on the bum.

Huvnaea please ask your question to Mr Brown and the Labour Party. Whur's Wendy!
84

Huvnaea,

Dunfermline 28/04/2008 13:34:43
Venacher

Quite! You made point in a slightly different way.

Since when has being a reserved issue stopped Alex Salmond sticking his oar in if he thinks that there is a chance it will boost his popularity?
Clealry no good poll ratings in this one for him.
85

Walter Ego,

Durness 28/04/2008 13:44:32
Did anybody see John Swinney on TV at lunchtime? The last time he looked as bad was when the SNP ditched him as leader. Salmond needs to act.
86

JG,

Fife 28/04/2008 13:56:27
#76 Sanny
You are entitled to hold the opinion that the union are right in this dispute, flying the flag in the face of the capitalist oppressors that are the managers but don't kid yourself that there is any altruism involved.
87

Quiet John,

Tinley Park 28/04/2008 14:10:03
I see what Unite's plan is. To make the site unprofitable, and force production to an English site.

That will really help the cause of a free Scotland.
88

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 28/04/2008 14:23:39
The company and their billionaire owner can afford the pension scheme. They are just trying it on. The union gets my full suoport.
89

The Strategist,

28/04/2008 14:30:34
It's astonishing how easily people will come to believe things simply because of who says it.

It's a bit like the 80's myth where people were told that actually ownership of companies wasn't important and of course neither was manufacturing.

I learnt many years ago that where even the slightest hint of a vested interest was detectable then there was a big fib in the making.
90

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 28/04/2008 14:50:10
The Ineos Grangemouth strike is symptomatic of a much greater problem. I, and most other people, can accept that up to a certain extent salaries for qualifications, skills, and experience must vary so as to match supply-and-demand. By definition retired people are not working, and I fail to see why retired people should receive greatly different pensions for not working in the same way. There should be just one flat-rate pension for everyone with just one tax-deductible contribution rate: a rate that guarantees a comfortable but not luxurious retirement. If those who are highly paid wish to receive larger pensions, then they must pay from their own after-tax savings. The pensions nonsense must stop.
91

Marcus Fenix,

The Valley 28/04/2008 15:10:54
As I look out my window just now and see those guys picketing about their final salary pension scheme I can also see the two hundred Hertel guys picking up their bags and going home after getting told they have all been laid off because the refinery has no work for them and the company can't afford to pay the wage bill while their not earning.

Similarly Watson Norrie have had to send half their work force, a hundred men, to differnt sites, and the other hundred have been sent home. These guys are lucky - they might have a job on Monday; then again they might not.

In my opinion, which I know wont go down well with the Union supporters, is that the Ineos workers are lazy, greedy and care little for the real consequences of their actions.

Unions are archaic and full of dinosaurs who wanted to be in a management position but never made the grade.

P.S. I hope it keeps raining and they all catch the cold!
92

Nippy sweetie,

28/04/2008 15:27:22
MP's are corrupt big shocker. Ask Salmond how he spends his 2 wage packets.

Members of the Scottish Parliament are calling for Alex Salmond to stand down from Westminster after he spent more than £130,000 in expenses and staffing costs as an MP during a period in which he visited the Commons six times.

‘Cheaper at the Ritz’

Flat rental £13,988.98
Parliamentary staff £84,664.94
Incidental expenses £18,591.34
Travel £1,480.80
Staff travel £2,081.85
Wife’s travel £293.50
Communications £2,221.84
Stationery £1,017.37
Postage £4,768.25
Computers £1,255.46

TOTAL £130,364.33

From the Times.

Look around people.

Job losses at Shell, JVC, RBS and so on. Having the energy workers strike will do nothing to attract businesses to invest in Scotland when we need them most.
93

Venachar,

28/04/2008 15:34:55
Methalions

Why do you think George Orwell wrote Animal Farm.

Before the first world war, it was only government ministers who were paid. What is your point?
94

Koffindodger,

Edinburgh 28/04/2008 16:13:05
81 interstellarmince

"self-imposed mind-prison"
Nice turn of phrase
!
I should have read your other postings before I posted my comment; that way I would have realised that either english is your second language or that you are possibly barking and just ignored you.
95

A Voice From Scotland,

28/04/2008 16:55:31
#25. The fuel has been ordered and is being delivered from Europe and has buger all to do with Ingerland you pig ignorant shyte stirring AArrsehole
96

Thistledhu,

28/04/2008 17:51:00
The last offer ineos made stated that present pensions would be left as they were only . only those who apply for new positions would be under the new pension provisions.

grangmouth is a job for life its pretty much dead mans shoes to get a job in there
so basicly the whole country is being held to ransom and faceing economic ruin over a handfull of employee's who as yet do not exist

unbeleivable!!!
97

Ineos worker,

28/04/2008 17:59:07
Number 188.
The pension does not change for EIGHT WEEKS. Please know your FACTS before you comment.

Unbeleivable
98

Thistledhu,

28/04/2008 18:09:32
~Ineos worker 119, get to work regardless how you dress up your actions they can not be justified

if you dont like the conditions your offerd go elswhere
i find it hard to beleive that you are protesting at paying for your own pension how can you justfy that?

answer you cant
99

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 28/04/2008 18:30:34
I'm not sure what 'Happy English'is trying to say. He is either a wind-up merchant trying to bait serious posters or else a subtle nationalist who is playing devil's advocate to highlight the merits of independence. Either way they are a bit of a laugh.

Back to reality. Up here we are now awash with fuel from the continent. Panic over now that everyone is running on half tanks instead of re-line tanks.

The economy has not collapsed. Thanks to John Hutton and Alex Salmond, who have both shown statesmen-like skills, and who I'm sure have done lots behind the scenes in keeping Scotland on the road. At least Mr Hutton is not a ditherer thank goodness.

One unforseen outcome is the revelation of the value of oil and the tax take that has got stuck in the pipeline from Cruden Bay to Grangemouth. Rest assured folks it's not milk. It won't go off. It won't curdle in the pipeline. I think it is quite apparent now to the Scottish electorate how much it is worth and how much we pump in to the UK exchequer. Subsidy junkies we certainly are not. No doubt 'Happy english' will be a wee bit unhappy to be reminded of that.

100

Miss H,

28/04/2008 18:31:22
118 The whole country is not being held to ransom. That's a silly thing to say. This has been a week of hysterical over-reaction in the press while normal people aren't that bothered. Suggest you stop reading the papers and get out more.

There is no panic and no-one is being held to ranson.

The worst that can happen to you is that you may be mildly inconvenienced.
101

Thistledhu,

28/04/2008 19:11:53
Miss H, the economy being down 50 million a day at a minimum isent holding the country to ransome? shuting down the power plant hence closeing down a neighboring plant and pipeline that supply's this country with 40% of its oil is a minor inconvenience?

the bottom line is the grangemouth workers are abuseing there position there strike is unjustifiable
102

Thistledhu,

28/04/2008 20:22:19
124Col. Blimp­IV lets not confuse the sight of short queue's at petrol stations and the real issue here.
a strategic facility that has a major part to play in the economy of scotland has been allowed to close down over a pension scheme that is financaly untenable(thanks to brown)

yes plenty of fuel stocks have been brought to scotland but at what cost? who will pay that cost? you and me
103

Jamsyke,

Edinburgh 28/04/2008 20:56:02
Public support is going fast? I don't understand why it was there to begin with.

The issue is irrelevant. The concept of employers holding their employer to ransom is unacceptable. They don't deserve to keep their jobs. They have a job because of their employer.

Employees don't dictate financial terms, employers do! An employer is entitled to do whatever it wants financially, just as every worker is entitled to either accept the conditions or find a job elsewhere.

These workers are being paid double what many consider to be a decent salary. Why should we sympathise?
104

Astarte,

Giffnock 28/04/2008 21:19:39
@67 Pomodora, I agree with your excellent comment. Scottish workers "were" the backbone of Industrial Democracy but I am afraid hat now they are in a dwindling minority. The workers that you refer to fought in World War Two and returned to fight at home for Union Rights and Civil Rights and Human Rights which resulted in giving us a NHS and other progressive programmes but unfortunately did not rid us of pro-American, right wing governments that subsequently followed. The Grangemouth workers are showing traits of tradition but in the main the Scottish mentality, worker and others, is not that which put fire in the bellies of these hero's of post war years. The average Scot today is a wimp who could never survive among real fighters and Solidarity is a word from another age. This is not the land of our fathers and I agree with you that most of the men today will settle for half a loaf.
105

Thistledhu,

28/04/2008 21:24:21
127 utter b****ks
if there was solidarity from the grangemouth workers where were they when the public service unions agreed to a pension deal where there members pay more receive less and work longer.
or when the armed forces pension scheme was changed for new entrants
take your red tinted glasses of
106

Astarte,

Giffnock 28/04/2008 21:27:29
#126.. Jamesyke...of course you don't understand! To do so you must have intestinal fortitude and not leave us women to be the "visionaries of a backward future" to paraphrase Proust.
107

Il Penseroso,

Inverurie 28/04/2008 21:48:18
I laugh with uncontrolled glee at all those detractors of the decent work force at Grangemouth.They castigate the workers selfish greed and high wages.Nothing of the kind! Jealousy rings more clearly. How pathetic their bleats for "we would like the same conditions". Why did you not apply for a job there in the first instance.As for the owner? A brutal exploiter of market forces who bought a company that for over thirty years had a stable record of good relations with the work force. A workforce that had accepted the progress of technology and lost half the number of workers. The company gave acceptable terms for those no longer needed. No strikes, no disruptions and the company, BP, made millions.Now along comes a pathological monetarist and wants the workers' pension fund (in surplus) to fund an investment of £750 million to make him and the shareholders more millions. Just like the New Labour P.M.! Take from the less well off to add more riches to the already mega rich. Maggie Thatcher would be proud of both!
108

Pro Libertate,

Life on the moon would be easier 28/04/2008 21:54:07
What I like about these Hootsman forums is the ‘Care in the Community’ aspect they provide, certainly not the accuracy or impartial reasoning.

Where to start? Well it was nice to see over the weekend that many people in the media, and the politicians, have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. (Nothing unusual in that I hear you say)
Poor old John Hutton, didn’t seem to know that BP Kinneil is not part of the Ineos Refinery, and actually said it was part of the Refinery. Similarly, the scare mongering reports in the Hootsman that these bad workers were preventing tankers from off loading diesel at Houndpoint, the BP terminal in the Forth, is nothing short of farcical.

Add to this the fact that EVERYBODY in the media is still reporting it as ‘the refinery workers being on strike’ when in actual fact it is the whole of the Ineos site: Chemicals and Refining.

Also, I see a lot of people cannot put finger to keyboard these days without letting the green-eyed monster, and quite obvious self-interest, out of the bag. Envy is a terrible thing and the ‘we don’t have such a good pay deal so neither should you’ brigade have not been slow to vent their spleen. As for the bangers promoting firing all the workers, would that not mean you would have even less fuel in the short term or certainly more expensive fuel in the long term? You work it out.

I’m really quite surprised that both governments took so long to take an interest in this dispute, or appreciate the effect that it could have on the Kinneil facility and North Sea oil. Doesn’t surprise me about Gordon Brown, with all the other problems he has on his plate at present, but Alex Salmond’s crew really missed an opportunity to make political capital over Westminster. Surprising as it is North Sea oil too!

Hopefully talks will get underway in the next few days to solve this dispute, but there is ‘rumour’ circulating that workers at Kinneil have just voted in favour of going on strike because their
109

Pro Libertate,

Life on the moon would be easier 28/04/2008 21:57:46
Hootsman, you need to make your pages larger!

Continuing . . . .

Hopefully talks will get underway in the next few days to solve this dispute, but there is ‘rumour’ circulating that workers at Kinneil have just voted in favour of going on strike because their pension terms were changed.

Ah well, let’s hope it’s a nice summer.
110

Il Penseroso,

Inverurie 28/04/2008 22:00:05
Jamskye Edinburgh Are you one of those pathetic wimps who would kiss the backside of your EMPLOYER for a penny less than your fellow worker for the same job? We are fortunate to have many good employers who maintain and retain a good work force. Alas there are many of the opposite inclination. The new owner of BP seems to me to be a glowing example of the latter. Remember Gordon Brown is a recent subscriber to those who have raided pension funds in support of their financial aspirations.
111

Astarte,

Giffnock 28/04/2008 22:05:43
#128..WOW! So that is what this is all about, TIT for TAT. Where have all the flowers gone?
112

Astarte,

Giffnock 28/04/2008 22:05:44
#128..WOW! So that is what this is all about, TIT for TAT. Where have all the flowers gone?
113

Astarte,

Giffnock 28/04/2008 22:10:04
#128..Thistledhu..if you can't spell the word then don't codefy..
114

Jamsyke,

Edinburgh 28/04/2008 22:33:00
#133 I'm not intelligent enough to understand your "penny less" comment. Are you saying that I shouldn't kiss the backside of my employer? Are you saying that I shouldn't be grateful for having a job?

I'm the kind of employee who is motivated to make money FOR MY EMPLOYER TO MAKE THE COMPANY MORE SUCCESSFUL because my employer rewards its staff when profits increase. You could say that's what all companies should do.

Sorry but I can't get past the soundbite (if it's true) that the average salary of the striking workers is 40k. That's a middle class salary. I'm not interested in the pension issue, I just don't agree with striking no matter what the cause.
115

Glyndur,

Calgary, Alberta 29/04/2008 02:07:54
The strike at Grangemouth has finally hit the Canadian papers - I can't wait for big oil to cite that as a reason for raising prices yet again in Alberta ( and the stuff is in our backyard ! )
116

mr angry,

ayrshire 29/04/2008 08:33:38
#65 Rather proves the point , can you point out how many steelworkers and miners we now have in UK. Their strikes did them a lot of good. The sheep following the morons that run the unions lost us all those jobs. This lot are heading the same way , Ratcliffe has lots of personal money , however it is the company that needs to survive , and if it don't make enough he will shut it down and do it elesewhere. These clowns will beout of a job and not need to woryy about their own pension never mind some fictitious future persons one. Scotland will then be importing 100% of its refined fuel requirements.
These sheep being led by donkeys need to wake up , they show their true colours by shutting down the supply of steam to BP pipeline , that should be illegal and government should send in people to run it, pipeline has nothing to do with these guys grievance but it helps bring the country to a halt and so aids them in blaxckmailing their employer. Bunch of lowlifes, they better prepare for dole or burger flipping as thats where they are heading.
117

mr angry,

ayrshire 29/04/2008 08:37:35
#76 Aye right they are sacrificing just for us , what a load of codswallop. These clowns are out for no-one but themselves. They are greedy and stupid and will pay for it with their jobs.
118

mr angry,

ayrshire 29/04/2008 08:45:56
#108 What a load of drivel, its been proven that communism/socialism does not work. Why should someone work hard all their life and save their money and then have to give it to lazy gits so that everybody is equal. Take your medication.

 

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