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Council calls in the experts to quell row of Gaelic cuts

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Published Date: 17 February 2009
By John Ross
HISTORIANS are being brought in to help decide whether modern-day residents of Caithness have more in common with the Norse or the Gaels.
A debate is continuing within Highland Council on the relevance of Gaelic to the far north. Last year some Caithness councillors sought to exclude the county from a Highland-wide policy of erecting bilingual English-Gaelic road signs.

The move wa
s defeated by 36 votes to 29, but a number of local councillors said there was no demand as the area had more Norse influence than Gaelic.

Councillor John Rosie has now proposed a cut in the council's Gaelic budget as part of a £13 million savings package announced last week.

It comes as Caithness is preparing to host Gaelic's main festival, the Royal National Mod, next year.

Mr Rosie said: "Every department has to make cuts except Gaelic … There is also money being spent on Gaelic signage. I just wanted Gaelic to come under the same scrutiny as every other department."

The national Gaelic development agency is being invited to a meeting in Caithness to explain the area's Gaelic heritage and the benefits it can bring.

Six historians and intellectuals have also been asked to provide information about the history and culture of Caithness.



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  • Last Updated: 16 February 2009 9:42 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Gaelic language
 
1

BLMac,

Highlands 17/02/2009 07:37:38
This doesn't need experts.

The census info from 1841 on recorded the language of the population. It's there in black and white, no expensive opinions needed.

That a proportion of the current locals claim there is no Gaelic heritage is proof that the genocidal and clearance policies that started in Stewart times and continued ever since, have worked.

Obviously there is a Norse heritage too. Why not a case for that language on signs too?
2

,

17/02/2009 08:14:46
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3

Stan Butler,

17/02/2009 10:18:47

Surely the road signs should also include place names in the 'Scots language' too.

Or is the 'Scots language' to be discriminated against?


4

eamon,

17/02/2009 10:22:26
The reason the funding is not being cut is that gaelic is underfunded anyway, and has been for centuries. My grandmother was from Caithness and she spoke gaelic. All my other grandparents spoke gaelic as their first language too, as do my father and mother, myself and my kids. The language has been persecuted for centuries, its time to right a few wrongs, and if people like vincent get upset, then they will just have to get used to it, gaelic is coming back.

#2 vincent

I want gaelic signs, Just because I am able to speak other languages should not mean that I should not be able to use my own language in the area of my birth. Everybody in Norway speaks english too, should they have english signs instead of norwegan ones.
5

eamon,

17/02/2009 10:25:06
#3
The scots language placenames are probably the same as the english ones anyway. No gael wants to persecute anybody, quite the opposite, we are sick of being persecuted in our own lands.
6

bill-alba,

ffife 17/02/2009 11:10:59
I want gaelic place names in Fife for the most part they make more sense than their english names.
7

,

17/02/2009 11:19:01
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8

cuthbert,

Barabhas 17/02/2009 11:23:27
"Surely the road signs should also include place names in the 'Scots language' too."

Scots has never been spoken in Caithness. Or perhaps it would be more accurate to say that Caithness English speakers have never felt the need to rename their dialect as "Scots". According to wikipedia anyway:

Historically, the Anglic language of Caithness has been defined and named, usually, as English. There is little[5] or no evidence, predating the late 20th century, of Scots being used as a name for Caithness dialect, but there is now, in some quarters, a tendency to see and name it as a form of Scots language.
9

cuthbert,

Barabhas 17/02/2009 11:24:31
Caithness was historically Gaelic speaking everywhere - as is clear from place names and other historical records. See Dr. Donald Stewart's report on the issue here:

http://www.bratach.co.uk/bratach/archive/Jun08/jun08_caithness-gaelic.html
10

eamon,

17/02/2009 11:37:08
#7

How many times have I been lost because I understand the roadsigns? Not sure I understand this question.

As to cost, it will be a fraction of the amount that buying a painting from the ancestor of the sutherland butcher did. That was also during this cash crisis you talk about. Surely saving the mother tongue of the scots is more important than a painting. More money should be made available for encouraging the growth of the language, and making it a part of our everyday life once again. Most of us see roadsigns every day so they should be bi-lingual. I dont hear too many complaints on here about welsh road signs costing money, or is it only gaelic that should suffer.
11

Jacqueline Hyde ,

On the shelf 17/02/2009 11:37:54
This bilingual road sign lark is quite absurd and the money wasted on them should be spent on more effective ways of supporting and promoting Gaelic. Why on earth couldn't they simply replace the old signs with the bilingual versions as and when they needed replacing instead of this hell-for-leather blanket approach?

And, while I'm on the subject, if it's so important to have bilingual road signs shouldn't the signs for road works, etc be bilingual too? It is doubly ludicrous that the warnings for the bilingual sign erection should be in English only!
12

eamon,

17/02/2009 11:48:42
#11

All forms of promoting gaelic should be used to try to make up for, in some way at least, the mistakes of the past. They should have been in gaelic in the first place, thus removing the need to replace them now. And yes, roadwork sighs should be in gaelic as well.
13

,

17/02/2009 12:07:42
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14

Akerbeltz,

Glasgow 17/02/2009 12:26:42
If only they knew how many people across the globe would fall over laughing at the suggestion bilingual roadsigns are problematic. In fact, English speakers would be the first to scream like teenagers on seeing a pig being slaughtered if the Japanese and Chinese reverted to monolingual signs. Closer to home, the Irish, Welsh, Basques, Galicians and scores of other countries have had them for years. Sadly, driver stupidity remainds the biggest killer on our roads.

Secondly, can we remember that Scotland's economy depends hugely on tourism? Tourists go places for a variety of reason but ask any expert and they'll tell you that "a strong sense of place" is very important. As in, something that makes a place special. The language landscape is part of that, tourists don't go "oh look, Highland Council wasted money on a bilingual sign", they go "oh can we stop and take a picture of that? It looks so different". So Gaelic signs at the cost of X have a tradeoff in many ways, even though it may not be that easy to gauge on paper. And I dare anyone to tell me that financially Caithness does not rely on tourists and could not do with some Gaelic related cultural tourism events that bring in extra people... Remember what the Sabhal Mòr did for the economy of south Skye? Or Oideas Gael in Glencolmcille?
15

eamon,

17/02/2009 12:49:03
#13

I wont get lost in either language, maybe there is just a type error. Even without signs I know my way about my native land. Gaelic roadsigns will promote the language, an example of how can be seen by reading the well thought out post at #14. It shouldnt matter how much is spent, it is only making up for what wasnt spent in the past and should have been. I wonder how many complaints there were in the scotsman regarding the money spent on the genocide that was supposed to eradicate the language and people from the face of the earth. I wonder if the sutherland guy will give any of the 50 million from his sale of that painting to make up for his ancestoral evils. May they rot in hell.
16

,

17/02/2009 12:54:44
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17

eamon,

17/02/2009 13:07:21
16

I am not the victim, my culture is. And its not pretended. You ask about the cost, well I think the cost of putting up a few signs in gaelic is nothing compared with the country giving 50 million for a painting. For centuries no money has been spent on gaelic, not positively anyway, and now some meagre scraps come our way people complain as if its some extravagant expense that should be stamped out at once. Well I for one will not tolerate this any longer.
18

eamon,

17/02/2009 13:15:29
#16

You say 'waste the money, but dont dare come bleating when cash is required for pratical things', you make it sound as if us gaels are inferiour to you monoglots, and once we have spent our pocket money we shouldnt come begging for more. Now there.
This is not the case, we demand, yes demand the right to exist in our own native lands, and i include Caithness in this, as equals. We wont go begging for extra from anybody. Modern Scotland owes us at least this, because without us it would not exist.
19

Akerbeltz,

Glasgow 17/02/2009 13:31:54
... if Gaels were native Americans or Aboriginals demanding land rights and restitution, everyone would be on their side. Well, almost. We'd return their "ghost shirts" and hold ancient ceremonies to appease the spirits of the ancestors whose skulls were on display in our museums. We wouldn't be quibbling about whether the massacre of the Tasmanians was committed by 100 or 500 years ago. We're demonstrating against the Israeli landgrab and the put up Tibetan flags... yet when Gaels point out that many a rich "noble" has wealth built upon old genocide, we feel they're being childish, illogical and backward facing?

Somehow it is so much easier to see the injustices committed righted by other people than to deal with those in our own backyard.
20

,

17/02/2009 13:33:18
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21

eamon,

17/02/2009 15:24:47
#20

You think spending money on gaelic is a waste of money? And you are right, its not the playground, its the survival of my culture we are talking about. These people who talk about not wanting gaelic road signs also deny gaelic ever existed in the area. They are wrong. gaelic was widely spoken in the area until well into last century. A quick check in the history books tell us that. If not gaelic, which language was?

There is no doubt that the majority of people in Scotland are never going to speak gaelic, I am not stupid enough to think otherwise. But without the contribution to modern Scotland made by the gael it would just be north england. The language of the south may be english, but the people mostly have gaelic ancestors. As to latin, lots of languages owe latin a big thanks. And latin owes greek the same. gaelic owes its modern alphabet to latin. English has its origin more to german than latin though.

I am not playing victim, certainly not a victim of yours. but it was you who said we shouldnt come back bleating for more money, as if its all yours to hand out! Its not, and we want our share.

#19
Yet another good post. I maybe get too emotional about these things, but it matters to me. Thanks for keeping a sensible head on things.
22

,

17/02/2009 16:20:04
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23

,

17/02/2009 17:22:17
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24

eamon,

17/02/2009 17:32:34
23

The 36 voted for gaelic, not against. The mod will be in Caithness soon, bring much needed investment to the area, this includes road signs in gaelic. Will these anti gaelic people turn away our money during the mod, dont think so. And if some local people are influenced into discovering their gaelic roots after the mod, then part of the infrastructure is there. One of my main priorities is the survival of my culture.

50 million on a painting=200 teachers=200nurses.
25

eamon,

17/02/2009 18:07:34
It seems this is now a non story as other more up to date scources are reporting that there will only be 4 gaelic signs in caithness anyway. Surely not even vincent can complain about that. Maybe the mod should also realise the lack of interest in the area would be bad for their festival and pull out due to lack of interest. Take it these people dont wear the kilt or drink whisky either. Half of them have gaelic names and still think the language has nothing to do with their area. sad deluded people.
26

,

18/02/2009 06:30:24
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27

,

18/02/2009 06:31:25
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28

eamon,

18/02/2009 09:50:36
vincent

going to stop talking to you now. you make no sense. Your hostility and prejudice to my heritage is really strange, maybe there is a deeper rooted reason than just cost. what do you mean thatI havnt come up with a cost? cost of what? keeping my culture alive! And how is my comparison irrelevant? Any country that can afford to spend 50 million on a painting can also afford a fraction of this to keep its native tongue alive. Gaelic culture gives more to our economy than a stupid picture surely. Where do you think whisky comes from. Or kilts and tartan. What cost not supporting gaelic

As for pulling the mod, no point holding it in a place so obviously hostile to gaelic. Better off going where people enjoy their culture. Falkirk for a start.
There are questions you left unanswered . Which language was spoken in caithness before the recent introduction of english. My grandmother left Reay in the 40s after meeting my grandfather. She was fluent in gaelic, as were her parents, sisters and brother. Her niece, whom I visited recently, was a kilt maker before retiring, and spoke gaelic perfectly.

Finally on the voting. You were happy to state that people obviously didnt want gaelic due to the result of the vote. Now you know that the vote was for gaelic and not against, are you prepared to do the decent thing and accept the result, or are you only prepared to use the democratic system when you think its in your favour.
29

,

18/02/2009 11:53:19
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30

eamon,

18/02/2009 12:24:17
vincent

And how the hell am I supposed to know that! Do you think I have access to these figures. I also resent a person who cannot read properly referring to me as dumbo. The question you asked was 'how much will this cost'. As I had been discussing the ehole gaelic issue I wasnt sure if you were referring to the whole gaelic vision, part of it, or just the road signs. You should learn to communicate in your own language properly before insulting others who view it as their second. But as it seems that the only way you can hold a debate is by trading insults then so be it. Maybe trading insults over the net is the only way a weed like yourself can vent his fury safe in the knowledge he wont get a smack in the mouth for his trouble.

You say there is no hostility to my culture, history tells a different story, once you learn how to read properly you should maybe think about purchasing a book about it.
31

,

18/02/2009 13:08:59
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32

,

18/02/2009 13:10:25
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33

BLMac,

Highlands 19/02/2009 00:04:24
Interesting.

In any other land or with any other racial group trying to protect its heritage and culture, such attacks would be clearly seen as racism.

The worst of it is that most of it comes from anglophilic quislings.

34

,

19/02/2009 06:28:04
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35

Lianachan,

Highlands 19/02/2009 15:54:05
The only question really is whether it's a useful allocation of funding. That claim that Gaelic was never widely spoken in Caithness cannot be substantiated through census evidence, placenames and various historical accounts. That there is a Norse heritage is also correct, although most of the evidence for this is only in placenames (surprisingly little, archeaologically). The modern Caithness dialect is almost certainly a variety of Scots, not Norn.
36

,

19/02/2009 16:10:41
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37

yaryar,

19/02/2009 17:20:35
Should not the point be how many people in Caithness use this as a primary written language and do not understand written English? Spending money at this time on signs seems to be out of touch. Could probably save a few people's jobs with out them. I realize people are proud of their heritage but how will signs change perception or anything else? Very few people will even understand what they are. So does that mean the next step will be to put up a sign explaining what the first sign means?
38

Lianachan,

Highlands 20/02/2009 10:09:41
#37 I don't think Gaelic signs are generally used for navigation as much as for interest, and their cultural value. For somebody like me (member of the Scottish Placename Society), it's always nice to see them - especially when the English name is completely different, not a translation or botched phonetic variant (example - Beauly). No need for translations, as anybody sufficiently interested will either know already, or be motiviated to go and find out.

 

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