Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


Forth tanker crisis looms as experts warn there will be spillages

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 06 March 2007
Plan to allow Russian tankers to transfer crude oil in Firth of Forth Executive powerless to stop the scheme due to privatisation under Tories Concerns voiced for marine life in the area
THEY'RE known as the "motherships".
Weighing in at 500,000 tonnes and the length of three football pitches, they are the largest vessels to sail the seas.

Such tankers could soon be a regular sight in the Firth of Forth, making stops to allow Russian crude oil to be pumped on board.

There are many objectors to the scheme. They are big and small but have one thing in common - they cannot stop it going ahead.

Even the Scottish Executive is powerless to act against Forth Ports, which is considering whether to allow 7.8 million tonnes of Russian crude oil to be transferred from ship to ship each year.

Critics have raised concerns about the wisdom of allowing such activities in one of Britain's most important areas for marine life and waterfowl.

The Firth of Forth is home to dolphins, porpoises, seals and minke, fin, pilot and killer whales. It is also an internationally important breeding colony for up to 400,000 seabirds, including puffins, gannets and guillemots that arrive each year to nest.

Everyone agrees a major spillage on the Forth would be an environmental disaster.

Even the company behind the proposal to transfer oil between tankers about four miles off Methil, Fife, can identify little advantage to the wider Scottish economy: SPT Marine Services of Sunderland, formerly called Melbourne Marine Services, estimates the business would create only 15 new jobs.

Under the proposals, up to 105 supertankers would enter the Forth each year.

Forth Ports, which controls all shipping movements in the estuary, stands to make about £6 million from the operations if they go ahead - a position which critics claim should exclude it from being the decision maker.

But due to the way the harbour authorities were privatised by the Tories, it is the only body which can make the ultimate decision to approve or reject the transfer plan.

Working with the guidance of Scottish Natural Heritage, the company is in the process of assessing any potential impact the proposals would have on protected species in the Forth. But unless they flag up potential environmental risks, the Executive will have no chance to get involved in the process.

It was described last night as a "conflict of interest" and there were demands for new legislation to ensure ministers have their say in every such application.

Mark Ruskell, the Green MSP, said: "Publicly accountable ministers should make the final decision on ship-to-ship transfers, and not a private company. The big issue is about why and how government has allowed a private company to be put in this situation - why has Forth Ports been given a statutory environmental regulatory role?

"Assessing the potential impact on killer whales, grey seals, Bass Rock and the Isle of May really shouldn't be their role."

Most of the proposed transfers are expected to involve Russian export-blend crude oil, pumped from small tankers originating from ports in the Baltic into "ultra large crude carriers" for onward transport.

However, Russian export-blend crude is very dense and thick - and particularly persistent in the event of a spillage.

Mr Ruskell said that, if there was political will, it would be possible to have "subordinate legislation" in place by the end of this year establishing a licensing regime that would give the final say to the Executive on all ship-to-ship transfers.

He added: "There is no way that such a dangerous and unnecessary activity should be allowed to go ahead in the Forth."

The Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) has already approved plans for transfers in the Forth, leaving the decision with Forth Ports.

Officials with KIMO - the local authorities' international environmental organisation which represents more than 6.5 million people in nine countries - have expressed great concern over the proposals.

Angus Nicolson, a Western Isles councillor and the group's international president, said: "This is a disaster waiting to happen - and one that is going to happen sooner or later."

He questioned allowing Forth Ports to have the final say over the matter. "It means you've got the gamekeeper and poacher being the same person, and they're not exactly going to turn themselves in," he said.

Mike Rumney, environment convener with Fife Council, said his local authority - along with Edinburgh and East Lothian - would seek a judicial review if Forth Ports claimed there was no risk to wildlife and approved the plans.

He did not believe the firm's contingency plan for an oil spill - which has already been approved by the MCA - was "adequate".

Due to their size and mass, supertankers have very poor manoeuvrability - their stopping distance is typically measured in miles. When operating close to the shoreline, they are vulnerable to running aground, experts say.

Last month, it emerged that a vessel owned by SPT had been involved in a 1995 collision in the Gulf of Mexico in which 35,000 gallons of oil was spilled. The revelation came despite assurances from the firm that it had an "excellent" safety record.

Darrell Echols, the chief science and resources manager at Padre Island National Seashore in Texas, where much of the oil washed up, warned: "If you do ship-to-ship oil transfers, there will be oil leakages.

"When you have two vessels sitting side by side in the ocean transferring one to another, the risk is very high. It might just be a gallon of diesel, or five gallons of crude, but there will be spillages, I can guarantee you that. If someone thinks you are never going to have spills in that environment, they are not aware of the reality. You just hope you never have to deal with a large spill."

Ian Laws, a director with SPT Marine, was unable to comment last night.

A spokesman for Forth Ports said: "Forth Ports is not setting a timeline on this. It's going through the appropriate assessment and that will take as long as it takes."

A spokesman for the Executive said: "The Executive will examine whether there is a need to make improvements to legislation under the habitats directive in relation to ship-to-ship operations."

Ecosystem devastated after collision

ELEVEN days after two tankers collided, sending 35,000 gallons of crude oil spilling into the Gulf of Mexico, balls of tar began washing up over several hundred miles of the Texas coastline.

The pristine white sands of Padre Island National Seashore - the world's longest undeveloped stretch of barrier island and home to dolphins, pelicans and endangered loggerhead turtles - were soon covered with oil and tar. Dozens of birds were killed and the delicate ecosystem was devastated.

SPT Marine - which owned one of the tankers and now wants permission for ship-to-ship oil transfers in the Firth of Forth - settled out of court four years after the Skaubay collided with the Berge Banker in 1999. Over £725,000 in compensation was paid to Texas.

Concerns remain over Shell's record in North Sea


SHELL, the oil giant, was served with ten improvement notices relating to its offshore operations last year by the government's Health and Safety Executive (HSE) - the highest of any of the North Sea's main operators, it emerged yesterday.

The HSE said the number of notices reflected continuing concerns over Shell's need to improve its performance, two years after it was fined a record £900,000 for safety failings which led to a massive gas escape in 2003 on the giant Brent Bravo installation in which two men died.

It was revealed yesterday that one of the improvement notices served on Shell last year concerned the maintenance of oil export pipework related to a platform in the Brent field.

A spokesman for the HSE said: "The number of notices we have served on Shell reflects the fact that we have had concerns about their performance offshore. We will continue, wherever our inspectors judge it appropriate, to serve notices requiring improvements to be made, or stop activities we think give rise to unnecessary risk."

The spokesman said the situation involving Shell was far from unique and some 12,000 improvement notices were served every year in the various industries regulated by the agency.

A spokeswoman for Shell declined to comment, but a company source said none of the notices concerned platform-critical equipment.

Page 1 of 1

 
1

Jack the lad,

06/03/2007 09:42:36

Its not going to improve the lives of anyone around the Firth of Forth or the people of Scotland.

We don't need it.

We don't want it.

We shouldn't have to put up with it.

2

Age of Reason,

on board 06/03/2007 09:47:01

I think we should make a proposal to transfer a lorryload of fueloil from two small tankers to one large road tanker on the driveway of the directors of this enterprise. We will make assurances that nothing will be spilt and offer compensation from our account in The Cayman Islands in the event of damaging his garden.

And every time a drip of oil enters the Forth, an equivalent drip will be placed on his doorstep, for him to step in. and his kids to roll in. Geddit?

3

Flash67,

Edinburgh 06/03/2007 09:54:50

Contingency plan?
Have SPT, MCA or Forth Ports consulted the Scottish SPCA, who run Scotland's main oiled bird cleaning centre in Fife about this contingency plan?
Have they diddley.

This is a disaster waiting to happen - even with the best care in the world, small scale spills happen all the time. How come these projects ALWAYS seem to end up in our most environmentally sensitive areas?

I think the Scottish Exec are bottling it. They may not have any say in this at the moment- but if they wanted to push it, then I'm sure emergency legislation of some kind could be passed. Our MSPs don't seem to have a lateral thinking bone in their body.

4

jim lad,

the capital 06/03/2007 09:59:59

I don't know what the draught of a fully laden mothership would be, neither do i know the depth of the Forth and wonder if the two are compatable, because if not this is pie in the sky.

5

siusaidh,

06/03/2007 10:04:50

I do wonder ,if this is just the Scotsman trying to find a headline to report or is it really something to worry about...?

6

Falsyde,

HIGHLAND SEP 06/03/2007 10:14:50

This is utter insanity and the fact the Executive has no control is simply a disgrace.

The Scottish people are sleep walking into another diaster zone. It is almost like the wild west Mk 2 when we have our landscape trashed with wind mills, mega pylons and now dodgy oil movements.

A nice wee energy colony for exploitation, the meagre benefits are massively outweighed by the costs and risks of serious environmental damage.

The two sizes of ships involved carry frightening risks, the smaller because they come from russia where monitoring of their sea worthyness is negligible and the larger operating under flags of convenience where pursuit of compensation may or may not be possible.

The Executive may have no control but guess who will have to face the consequences when, not if, it goes wrong, the folk who will have to pay for and organise the clean up. Who does have control?

And then we get some fools telling us about the risks of being independent!!!!!!.

7

Privateman,

East Lothian 06/03/2007 10:15:12

As I look at tankers in the Forth every day, I can say that this is something to worry about. The point is, why are they contemplating it if it provides few jobs and is inherently risky? I don't wish to be accused of nimbyism, but considering the danger to wildlife, why can't transfers be carried out in deeper water?

8

Gordon, Canonmills,

06/03/2007 10:21:47

It's not April Fools day yet, is it?

"But due to the way the harbour authorities were privatised by the Tories, it is the only body which can make the ultimate decision to approve or reject the transfer plan."

A private company decides whether to authorize operations (by Russians, who have an abominable environmental record - e.g. think Prestige off the NW Spanish coast) which could endanger the entire Scottish North Sea coastline.

The country stands to gain nothing by this, and even the company only £6M.

How could it ever have come to this?

There used to be a country called Scotland!

BASTA!!!!

9

Pomona man,

Orkney 06/03/2007 10:22:38

This has been going on in the environmentally sensitive Scapa Flow for many years, so far without any significant problems. The world first inshore transfer of LNG was also safely completed here just a couple of weeks ago.

So, if nobody wants it in the Forth I'm sure Orkney Harbours won't object to a bit more much needed business in an area where £6 million and 15 jobs really would be a massive boost to the local economy.

10

Bitsy,

Edinburgh 06/03/2007 10:30:45

The thing about Scapa is that all revenue goes to the local council and therefore back into the local community ensuring a real economic benefit. Furthermore, Scapa is far more sheltered than the Forth. Most importantly, Scapa Flow is not a European Protected Site. Scapa have said they will take the trade if it is offered and SPT already operate there so there really is no reason to risk the internationally important environment of the Firth of Forth.

11

Robin,

06/03/2007 10:34:55

Not saying that I agree with this proposal to have oil transfers in the Forth, but what about Hound Point off Queensferry?
Has this not been an oil tanker loading terminal for the last 20 years or so?

12

TheGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 06/03/2007 10:35:21

#2. Spot on.
You can bet your mortgage that you'll not see any Forth Ports directors/investors getting their wellies on and mucking in to help out when the accident happens - they'd be too busy counting their filthy lucre...

13

Bitsy,

Edinburgh 06/03/2007 10:43:23

#12
The problem wrt risks to the environment arises because this is a new project in an area previously little used by tankers. Also, transferring oil between ships at anchor is more risky than ship to shore transfer. However, the giant mother ships can't make it as far as Hound Point!

14

Captain David,

Rotterdam 06/03/2007 10:51:34

Must be a slow news day.
Ships always get bad press - even when they are not at fault. We are an island nation in spite of the fact that we are connected to Europe by a tunnel. I agree with the transfer - STS (Ship to Ship) transfers have been done for years in all parts of offshoreUK - Lyme Bay, Tor Bay, Scapa, Irish Sea etc. Who are the experts who have warned about the crisis - a tree hugger on Padre Island? Galveston Bay off Texas has at least 10 daily STS with few problems. By the way the photograph is of a shuttle tanker that takes North Sea oil and loads over the front (bow) of the ship, it is about 80,000 tonnes maximum, it is not a ULCC of 500,000 tonnes - ask your experts!

15

adhara,

st monans 06/03/2007 11:15:28

The Firth of Forth environment is clearly, hugely at risk so why not take the tankers to Scapa where SPT already operate?

16

morris,

edinburgh 06/03/2007 11:17:45

10
Scapa does sound like an eminently sensible alternative.Perhaps you should impress this upon the Liberal candidates locally and remind them they serve the people who elected them into office
(in this case Orkney/Scotland ),not the Westminster party who dictate to them.
Theres little doubt that provided we ensure safety as much as possible and do this where it will cause least people to be upset ,then it must be the lesser of evils.
I dont know enough about it to argue whether its neccessary to use these huge mother ships in the first place, but it does suggest that cost is the driving force here rather than saftey.No surprise there then.

17

Ted,

06/03/2007 11:20:27

adhara, see, that would take one more day of trans-shipment, which would mean slightly less money for Forth Ports and SPT directors to roll around in.

Forget just legislating to remove some of Forth Ports' powers, they should just be renationalised again. There, I said it!

18

Dayvan Cowboy,

06/03/2007 11:23:11

Let me get this right , there has NOT been a disaster , this is a report about the fact that - possibly - in the future - there may be one.

And youve all been suckered in to commentabout a possible (not probable) spillage which may or may not happen in the future IF this goes ahead ?

Are you lunatics ? This is not news !

19

the droothy neebur,

06/03/2007 11:28:13

#20, tell you what Cowboy Joe, just bookmark this page for future reference because one day it will be read as news. Hyndsight is a wonderful thing, but foresight is even better.

20

Dayvan Cowboy,

Rotterdam 06/03/2007 11:34:53

Fine.

You have a dead river with the exception of the ferry to ZeeBrugge and handful of Jetskiers.

Do you want an economy or do you not ?

21

just,

06/03/2007 11:35:11

#20
'we'll cross that bridge when we come to it' style thinking is exactly why there are horrific oil spills and why, when they do happen, they means to deal with them are not in place.

putting the clean up procedures in place is seen as an admission that disaster might happen...so better not do it.

the point is if this goes ahead, then spillages will be highly possible and by then it will all be a bit late.

do you walk out in the road on the basis that you haven't been hit by a car yet...or do actually look before you walk out?

22

TheGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 06/03/2007 11:35:55

#20 ever heard of risk?
put thes words in order:-
risk unnecessary high benefits positive no with

23

Mike ex England,

Fife 06/03/2007 11:36:25

I would have thought that if the Scottish Parliament is not able to stop this project but are making 'noises to indicate to the voters that they do not want it' - the answer lies with them.

A law making Forth Ports pay the total costs of each and every clean up after a spill would probably make them totally lose interest in the project.

24

Privateman,

East Lothian 06/03/2007 11:36:54

Yeah, #20, do you just sit and wait for your roof to fall in on your head, or do you take preemptive action? (because, one day, it will)

25

Neil,

9% Growth Party 06/03/2007 11:38:52

The headline says "experts" are warning but in fact the only people mentioned are Mark Ruskell, the Green MSP, the local authorities environment group & a guy from Texas who appears to be responsible for some sort of wildlife reserve.

None of them "experts" in oil transfer & all, I suggest, part of the "usual suspects" who have never supported economic growth or technological progress in their lives.

At the very least heavily slanting what I suspect is likely to put less oil into the Forth than having garages where oil is changed, in Edinburgh.

26

Commuter,

Aberdeen 06/03/2007 11:39:01

The draft of a Tanker of this size would be in the region of 25m which would be suitable to that side of the Forth. When a vessel of this size is fully de-ballasted, the structural steel area exposed would be at the mercy of the prevailing winds which blows down the Forth valley from the West. The only thing that would prevent a disaster would be sufficient Tugs to hold both vessels on place as well as the vessels anchor.
Then there is the de-ballasting operation, no pollution now with segregated ballast, but it has introduced foreign marine growth into areas which have done this of disastrous consequence to local marine life.
Then there is the problem of discharging hydrocarbon gas into the atmosphere, do these vessels have a scrubbing system on board to remove these gasses before they are discharged, I am sure all these things have been looked at, this is over and above any oil pollution.
A £6 million bond should be placed on this operation, refundable at end of contract, should there be no incidents, such as Oil pollution, collision, and atmospheric discharge of gasses or changes in local marine life.

27

Privateman,

East Lothian 06/03/2007 11:39:32

#22, it doesn't look dead to me. Plenty of shipping going to Grangemouth and Braefoot, not to mention inshore fishing. Or are Forth Ports merely a leisure service?

28

Guga,

Rockall 06/03/2007 11:41:43

Whether or not there is a potential for a disaster, the fact remains that the Scottish Executive have, apparently, no powers to control what goes on within Scottish waters. If this is the case, then it is a disgrace, and something should be done about it as soon as possible.

We can't rely on wee Joke McConnell to do anything quickly as he would have to await instructions from his masters in Westminster, so, presumably, we will have to wait till after the elections.

Control over all Scottish waters is, or should be, within the sovereignity of the Scottish people, and should be exercised on their behalf by the Scottish parliament, and no one else.

29

IWright,

Edinburgh 06/03/2007 11:42:51

If you don't control your country or have a spineless government don't complain if people take advantage. Vote SNP in May and see what a real Scottish government can do, even with the limited powers of Holyrood.

30

Gordon, Canonmills,

06/03/2007 11:44:35

The alaming part of the story (or even the non-story, if you prefer) is that the decision-making for an environmentally sensitive issue is in the hands of a bunch of pirates, whose only criterion is the profit motive.

Yes, we want an economy, but not in the hands of cowboys!

31

Brian - Naval Architect,

Wokingham 06/03/2007 11:46:25

Gordon #9 is shooting from the hip. Some facts about the Prestige. Built in Japan, Classed by Americas, flagged in Bahamas which is a 'Red Ensign' country and follows the UK flagging principals. The owner is in Greece, she sailed from Latvia to Singapore with about 80,000 tonnes of fuel oil. No mention of Russia anywhere.

Any ships that weigh 500,000 are not built - any that were have been scrapped and were of a design that is not permitted on the seas any more. New ships will have double hulls thereby limiting any pollution from contact damage.

The ports have the authority to ban any ship which they think is a risk. Ask the operators at Sullom Voe.

I agree that people may be concerned but so many are talking from total ignorance!

32

Dayvan Cowboy,

Rotterdam 06/03/2007 11:51:56

Your analogies are awful.

Im well aware of risk management, but in order to have risk management a precursor is having a risk in the first place.

Here, there is no roof or road.

A Roof or a road may be built sometime in the future. We just dont know.

33

jim lad,

the capital 06/03/2007 11:54:24

#28 Commuter.
Thanks for your interesting post

34

Gordon, Canonmills,

06/03/2007 12:05:30

Brian - naval architect #33

Not so.

The Prestige was in San Petersburg awaiting scrapping, when it was brought out of "retirement" and taken to Latvia for loading by an impromptu multinational consortium of bandits - "Swiss" money, Greek captain, Bahamas flag, etc.

The rest is (horrific) history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prestige_%28ship%29

As to Forth Ports PLC being responsible for safety, check out this article from these very pages:

http://business.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=1409&id=1...

which includes these very pertinent questions regarding the ownership of the company:

"What happens if a foreign buyer is only interested in the land bank and wants to sell the pilotage on?

"Or say they are interested in the pilotage, but want to maximise revenue and risk public safety?

"Is it right that the regulation of what is a critical matter for much of Scotland is left to the whim and fancy of a foreign buyer?"

I totally suscribe Guga's comment at #30.

35

Privateman,

East Lothian 06/03/2007 12:10:36

#34 Dayvan Cowboy: you evidently don't understand the meaning or use of analogy. Sticking to the precise situation, are you saying that there is no risk of a spill whatsoever but, if there is one, then we deal with it then? If so, then stable doors and horses bolting come to mind if you can grasp that concept.

36

the droothy neebur,

06/03/2007 12:28:07

#22 - We 'have a dead river' ??????????

If this plan goes ahead, there will be oil spillages and the river will then be truly 'dead', you numpty.

Right now, it's teeming with life.

It's wrong to assume that the river and all that lives within it is there to be exploited by mankind for purely short-term commercial gain.

That's precisely the attitude that has got the world into the damn mess it's in today.

37

Navvy,

06/03/2007 12:37:40

#1 seemed to be a glitch this am so could not post

38

petrol head,

Edinburgh 06/03/2007 12:41:18

If an oil spill would cause environmental damage then the answer is simple---don't spill any oil.

I'm quite sure that Forth Ports have thought of this and have adequate measures in place to prevent spillage and also to deal with it should it occur.

Politicians who know nothing about this subject should keep their noses out of it and their mouths shut---as should anyone not directly connected with it.

Involving people who know nothing will not only make a spill more likely by imposing stupid proceedures, but will probably double operating costs into the bargain.

39

the droothy neebur,

06/03/2007 12:49:35

#40, we are ALL connected to it, it is all of our business. Have you ever heard of democracy? If the politicians are being lobbied by their constituents to stop this going ahead they have a duty to speak up.

It's not 'if' and oil spillage happens, it's 'when'.

40

David Robert,

06/03/2007 12:50:12

This is surely another case of the inmates runnig the asylum. What is in it for Scotland. Even if the Tories mishandled the privatisation, is that any reason why the law cannot be amended. We don't want it in the Forth. Is not Scotland OUR COUNTRY.
Let these gigantic ships go to Scapa.

41

doris d,

06/03/2007 13:16:05

I live in East Lothian. The Forth is tidal-why on earth would anyone want to risk putting these monster tankers up a narrow, tidal waterway other than to make even more money for themselves?
It's bad enough living in a county which has an inept cooncil without having an Executive which cannot stand up for the rights of its people.
All we can hope for is that travelling people colonise one of the islands in the middle of the Forth and claim that the tankers are invading their privacy. That would galvanise the Executive into taking avertive action against the tankers!!!

42

Alex Plode,

all over the EL beaches 06/03/2007 13:17:54

#40 - I'm involved. I will have my say. Just who do you think you are?

I live in East Lothian and I'm a Fifer by birth. The local economy on both sides depends to a large extent on tourism - Seabird Centre, Aberlady Bay, Bass Rock, beaches on one side and beaches, holiday resorts, East Neuk villages, golf etc on the other.

It only needs one spillage for this to be a huge disaster to both Fife and Lothian communities. Stop it, now.

WHat about an organised midnight traffic jam at the Forth Road Bridge tolls? Direct action, now!

43

petrol head,

Edinburgh 06/03/2007 13:26:18

#44:

OK, point taken. Now what is your experience on the following:-

1. Supertanker navigation
2. Managing large ship ports
3. Transferring oil between large vessels
4. Managing ship to shore oil transfer facilities
5. Risk assessment in the context of hazardous cargo handling involving large ships
6. Oil spill containment
7. Meteorology
8. Effect of wind and tide on oil spills
9. Dispersal of oil spills

If you can provide evidence of experience or in-depth understanding in the above then you are qualified to comment on this.

Otherwise is it not best left to those who DO know what they are talking about---ie Forth Ports?

44

Scots Man,

06/03/2007 13:30:27

This is too much of a risk to go ahead with. Can the government really do nothing? Surely the parliament's reserved environmental powers?

45

U. Lukenatmepal?,

Oil Beoffnow 06/03/2007 13:37:39

Let the kneejerk nimbies have their say. Ignorance is bliss - why spoil it with facts.

46

TheGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 06/03/2007 13:41:04

#40 Petrol head - who are you to tell people what or not to discuss?
What makes you think this is good idea?
(Is it becuase it involves oil do you immediatly link it with your confused manhood extension i.e. your car or bike? Is that it? Or are you a director or invester in Forth Ports? Do you work for Forth Ports?)

47

Navvy,

06/03/2007 13:42:10

I think that 28 is either english or brain washed Forth Valley!! @#^&* There is no valley till well beyond Stirling where it is a big flat wide carse. the correct term is firth.

#10 Pomona - Such transfers are probably better managed in Scapa where the sea state is calmer than the Firth out by the bass rock and where it is more practical to surround the ships with a containment boom

#12 Robin - you have not been reading my posts on this. Hound point may not take ships of this size.
Moreover, in about 1981 there was an accident at Hound Point. A tanker unberthing became out of control and swung round and hit a dolphin and was holed - luckily in a ballast tank - and ran aground on the flats. Well you should have heard the chatter on the VHF - panic, how to lock out another tug from leith at low water? Call the navy at Rosyth, woops they're long gone. Well the navy tug ran out of (air - change from ahead to astearn) starts. The press, prompted by PFA miss-reported. Finally, FPA lied - they stated that tehy always have 2 tugs in attendance at Hound Point but that day ther was only one. Also the Pilots are not to be trusted.
I wa building the gas jetty behind Inchcolm and had to take a compusory 2500 HP Water Tractor tug from FPA to tow my bare into Burntisland. First teh tugs call up the Office "how do we get there?" Gas tankers were due in 6 months! Then the tow set off at heading east across the Meadulse Shoal to the NE of Inchcolm. I asked the Pilot how much the tugs drew? He replied - I forget exactly- 4.5 m to which I responded Hmm, interesting, ther is only 3m on the Meadulse at this state of the tide. What! He exclaimed, I said would you like to see the chart. He saw, he shouted into his radio and the tugs turned hard aport.

Moral DO NOT TRUST FPA

48

AJ,

Fife 06/03/2007 13:46:42

Since the value of this operation is negligible to the local economy, surely it's not worth the risk. Even if the risk is minimal, it's simply not worth it!!

49

Snakey Eyes,

Blackburn, Lancs 06/03/2007 13:56:22

#42 David Robert

Succinctly put, well said.

50

TheGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 06/03/2007 14:00:01

#50 Exactly. What does the local economy gain from this? Nothing. Why should we risk an environmental disaster simply to make a handful of rich people even richer?
I could see the point if it meant £100Million per year being paid into the Scottish public purse for example.

51

petrol head,

Edinburgh 06/03/2007 14:10:35

#48:

No, I don't work for Forth Ports.

There are far too many major decisions being made and influenced nowadays by people who don't fully understand the subjects in hand.

Let me draw you an analogy. If you had tooth-ache, you wouldn't phone the plumber and ask his opinion. If you had a leaky pipe, you wouldn't phone the dentist.

You certainly wouldn't argue against the dentist's opinion on your tooth, based upon the plumber's assesment of the situation and neither would you argue against the plumber's diagnosis of your leaking pipe on the basis of what your dentist said.

What is happening here is that people are arguing against the decision of Forth Ports that was based upon sound knowledge and analysis by experts. In the main, those who are arguing against it frankly do not understand the factors involved properly.

52

Neil,

9% Growth Party 06/03/2007 14:12:06

Well according to the Greens this will be worth £120 million a year & the fees to us will be "considerable". It is unfortunate that this article doen't give figures.

I have already said I think the risk miniscule. If those so concerned about it are really concerned they should suggest tax rises for themselves to pay for what they want. Since £120 million is about 1p on income tax a voluntary extra 1p tax on all those concerned about this would, if it is genuinely a widespread concern, replace the fees. Indeed an awful lot of environmental costs could be treated in this way. Just let everybody who wants massive "environmental" costs on everything register that they would be equally keen to pay their share & let the rest of us get on with life.

53

Andrew Allan,

06/03/2007 14:16:00

###Snakey Eyes###, This is an answer from a few days ago.
Phlegmatically speaking, Alex Salmond is an adequate figure to take us into independence. He doesn’t act like an egotist, and he really doesn’t have to be a William Wallace figure to do the job. As far as the intelligence of his party is concerned, well up to now they have been able to put one over the other parties, which is a good start. The rest will be shown after one or two years running the Scottish Parliament, before an independence vote.
The Scots industrialists and merchants did start off with great intentions due to the Enlightenment, and things went reasonably well for around eighty years or so after. It was when Scotland lost its influence by the 1880s due to changing trends in education, and the influx of cheap labour that things hit the skids.
‘Also, don't knock the Chuckle Brothers, we wrote most of Tony Blair's speeches for him!’ Surely you are being too modest, Tony Blair would not be where he is today without your intellectual guidance, and you know it. Your missionary work, as you call it, leaving your country for the betterment of all, could only have been an inspiration for those you left behind. Don’t feel you must return until your goal is achieved, as we have enough independently minded people living here to cope.

54

Jack the lad,

06/03/2007 14:17:41

I was in at post 2 saying we wont get any benefit from it so why should have it.

Those who profess to know something about this in previous posts have not said a disaster is impossible, in fact most have suggested the opposite to some degree or other.

Of all the people who have come on and there's no reason not to have it so we should, can anyone please explain why and what the benefits might be; to me; to the Firth of Forth area; to Scotland?

Just because we have the capacity, technology or the ability to do things doesn't mean we automatically should - like road pricing, cloning, nuclear bombs for example!

Just because some foreign company thinks it can save money by doing transfers here doesn’t mean we automatically have to let them.

55

Gordon, Canonmills,

06/03/2007 14:19:15

#44

"Otherwise is it not best left to those who DO know what they are talking about---ie Forth Ports?"

No.

Read this:
http://business.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=1409&id=1...

PS - you want to stop sniffing that petrol - it can produce paranoia/megalomania and you may end up telling other folk what to do/not do!

56

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 06/03/2007 14:25:12

Well they should allow the transfer as far as I'm concerned. No real reason not too, irregardless of the nationality of the companies doing so. It's not as if they are recieving public funding on doing so.

57

Snakey Eyes,

Blackburn, Lancs 06/03/2007 14:36:42

#55 Andrew Allan

And here was me thinking that my country was a broad church?

Seems that you're looking for too many 'yes' men Andrew and that a contra view or an attempt to open up a debate, leaves you cold. Scotland prides itself on free thinkers, has done for centuries and not yes men, WHATEVER the question.

And like most other Scotsmen, exiles or not, my enthusiasm is rarely dampened by others, even by my fellow Scots. So start playing with your worry beads because I'll be back.

Oh, and if I ever did write a speech for Blair it would begin with two simple words,...."I resign"

58

Snakey Eyes,

Blackburn, Lancs 06/03/2007 14:38:11

:)

59

TheGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 06/03/2007 14:42:08

#54 Did you read the article?

It clearly says that FP will make £6million (although is not so clear to point out that this is per annum ).

The bottom line is Scotland will get very little in return for taking this risk.

#53 Petrol head - so don't talk about football tactics if you are not a professional football manager. Don't talk about politics if you are not an elected politicain. Don't talk about nulcear power stations if you are not an engineer or physicist. Don;t talk about hte NHS if you are not a doctor or nurse. IS that it? With all due respect, Forth Ports are not oil tansfer experts.

60

Andrew Allan,

06/03/2007 14:45:30

Snakey Eyes,#60. So what is your view of Adam Smith, author of the wealth of nations.

61

christopher,

06/03/2007 14:48:51

can i ask this............. they have been transferring fuel between planes flying at over 500mph for a number of years now, they experience turbulence and extreme danger every second it is happening for.

surely moving oil from one ship to another could be done, in this day and age, safely and quickly? these big refuellers in the sky can transfer enough fuel to keep our cars running for over 8 years in 15 - 20 seconds, surely there is technology that can transfer this load quicker with a shut off emergency system so if pressure falls or a leak is detected then all transfers are automatically ceased until repairs are carried out, or would it be to far from the realms of possibility to build 'docking' stations for these transfers to stabilise the boats while they are transfering oil reducing the very clear risk involved? i live on the coast and look out the window in the morning to some beautiful skys and sights i wouldn't like to see these views ruined by this, on the other hand if has to be done, then do it, but do it properly.

62

morris,

edinburgh 06/03/2007 14:49:46

45
The problem is we have had oil spillages in the past,and will continue to do so,until the people who are "in the know "supplement their reassurances with performance".
For "expert" read the cretin who screwed up last time (and knows not to do that again)Great ,now all we have to worry about is what else does he not have a grip of.
There is no suche beastie as safety,there is only acceptable risk factor,and this is not even close to being acceptable . WE dont want reassurances we want guarantees,and that means move it out of the Firth of Forth.

63

Andrew Allan,

06/03/2007 14:49:56

Snakey Eyes,#59 I found your 'And here was me thinking that my country was a broad church?' I take it this was an ironic statement, given your reasons for leaving it.

64

Andrew Allan,

06/03/2007 15:03:25

Snakey Eyes,# Will be back after five.
When you say'Oh, and if I ever did write a speech for Blair it would begin with two simple words,...."I resign"' I take it you mean it to be your own resignation speach for all the good work you have done for Tony Blair.

65

Jock From Belfast,

Belfast 06/03/2007 15:45:43

I come from Fife ,Tell me, when these Big mother--------ships come into the forth and lay of Methil to unload this bunker oil, you say that there could be as many as 105 of these ships a year out there what will happen if one of these ships during it`s transfer operation with another ship along side got caught in a sever storm that is common up at the mouth of the forth and they started to drag there anchors, you would be praying that those wee tug boats have the power to hold them or you will have one hell of a situation out there. MESSY, VERY MESSY, and who would hold there hands up and say it`s our fault, I`m dammed sure the port authorities wont, but it will be left to us (JOE PUBLIC) to watch the environmental disaster unfold in front of us and we cant do a damm thing about it, MONEY TALKS especialy when you have share holders to look after and to hell with the feelings of the populace around the firth of forth who will suffer for years IF there was a disaster during the fuel drop off.
from Jock

66

Helmslee,

Round and about 06/03/2007 16:04:37

Headline.......Forth Ports to be scrapped, Fife Council to take over river management.

All objections to STS dropped, first ship due next Thursday - Suckers

67

Gordon, Canonmills,

06/03/2007 16:08:10

"Money doesn't talk, ... it swears!"

Bob Dylan

68

Snakey Eyes,

Blackburn, Lancs 06/03/2007 16:18:52

#62,65, 66 Andrew "back at five" Allan

This is the wrong forum for a private chat but it seems churlish to leave your questions unanswered.

I think everything in Society has to be balanced. Newton's (3rd?) Law "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction" applies to everything.

I admire and agree with Adam Smith up to a point regarding state interference or rather the lack of it. Free enterprise drives an economy. However, it has to be balanced against the 'wealth' of Society as a whole and not the given 'value' of a Society where few high worth individuals hold the majority of the wealth. Fine for banking and currency but state welfare (the good bits) evolved after Smith (not his fault-just evolution).

I think you took the broad church comments slightly out of context as I was referring to great minds having the ability to differ rather than always agree.
Was the comment ironic? Partly. I was referring to you.

When you originally wrote about the Chuckle Brothers, I played along with the joke, hence the original retort about Blair and writing his speeches because I think he has the Chuckle Brothers writing them sometimes.

If you had me down for "my inspiring work" with them, then de facto I would have been writing his speeches. However, I am more likely to write speeches for Carlos the Jackal (that's irony) than Blair and if forced, I would write his resignation speech, nothing else, because he, like most other major politicians, 'gies me the bile'.

What's the issue with being an exile Andrew? I won't be the last but I wouldn't be on this forum if I didn't give a toss.

Having been made redundant (& thoroughly sickened by sectarian issues that would take too long to explain), and instead of sponging off the state, I took myself off to where I could find work. A rather endearing, if old fashioned, working class, Scottish trait, don't you think?

69

Alex Plode,

sifting through the sludge 06/03/2007 16:19:39

Petrol Head

I'm no expert on nuclear warheads either but I'm fairly sure that in the wrong hands, they're not safe. You don't need to be a subject matter expert to be allowed to have a valid opinion on this. You just need to be a stakeholder. I'm a resident and council tax payer of East Lothian and therefore a stakeholder. It's our beaches that are going to be messed up by this. It's my childrens lungs that are going to be affected by gaseous hydrocarbon pollutant emissions. So how dare you tell me I have no right to an opinion.

FPA are literally making up the rules as they go along. They are responsible for what happens in the Forth estuary, and yet they are allowed to run commercial operations in it. As Kenny Macaskill pointed out the other night, we wouldn't allow Eddie Stobart tu run our roads, or Ann Gloag to run out rail infrastructure.

DIRECT ACTION NOW

70

Helmslee,

here and there 06/03/2007 16:36:40

Maybe getting Eddie Stobbart to run our roads would be a good thing. If there were any problems their share price would be hit, thus ensuring the highest of standards.

71

Alex 2,

Edinburgh 06/03/2007 16:44:42

Worked on STS in Lyme Bay for years, not a problem. never heard any outcry from Scotland when The "Lyme bay" operation was passed. This operation is happening all over the world.

72

Alex 2,

Edinburgh 06/03/2007 16:55:21

And did you know the "Exxon Valdez" is a common visitor to Hound Point (Under a new Name)

73

Neil,

9% Growth Party 06/03/2007 17:05:41

TheGlaswegian you are right - i had missed the figure that the £6 million a year fees for this is in the article. This is not a world shaking sum but it is not to be sneezed at either. It could be the equivalent of 2km of Norwegian tunnels or 1,500 Norwegian prefabricated houses (or the cost of SNH catching 5,520 hedgehogs) per year.

On what do opponents of this propose cutting spending, or raising taxes? My cynical guess would be not on "environmentalist" spending or on taxes they personally disproportionately pay.

74

Alex Plode,

robbing on Lyme bay 06/03/2007 17:30:08

Alex 2 #75

Can't quite believe your use of Lyme Bay as some kind of byword for marine safety. I think the MSC Napoli is still on the beach, is it not?

Try googling "Lyme Bay Accident". Or try looking at newspape headline of, oooh, all of 6 weeks ago.

Must try harder.

It (STS) can happen all over the world if it likes - but the Firth of Forth isn't the place to do it, as any fule kno.

75

Andrew Allan,

06/03/2007 17:57:33

Snakey Eyes,#70
‘This is the wrong forum for a private chat but it seems churlish to leave your questions unanswered.’ Yes I know, had to leave you on Friday, just used this forum to catch up.
‘I think everything in Society has to be balanced. Newton's (3rd?) Law "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction" applies to everything.’ Morally, on principle, I’d agree, but philosophically, I find I must be more flexible than that.
Adam Smith’s work ‘The Wealth of Nations’ was really in support of the consumer, and not the businessman, though clearly it teaches good practise too. It also teaches the evils of the market economy, and warns of the effect on the ordinary working man, and suggests state intervention to help.
‘I think you took the broad church comments slightly out of context as…etc.
Was the comment ironic? Partly. I was referring to you.’ Sorry, yes I did take your comments here out of context, as clarification of your presumption has done too.
.
As for issues with exiles, I don’t really have any fixed ones, it all depends on the exiles response to a question.
‘Oh and on the question of irony, are you saying that you wouldn't welcome exiles back to an independent Scotland, because if you weren't there to create it, you're damned to eternity?’ I would welcome any Scot who will roll up their sleeves and make a difference.

76

Andrew Allan,

06/03/2007 18:05:41

Snakey Eyes,#59 & 70. I generally find those stooping low enough to site the use of the ‘yes’ men argument, without adequate evidence to back it up, are unsure of their own evidence, and position. Next you will be saying I make you laugh. Personally I find one ‘yes’ man is one ‘yes’ man too many. Where is the fun in trying to argue, when the outcome is a done deal?

77

petrol head,

Edinburgh 06/03/2007 18:06:47

#71: I can see your point and in some ways I agree, however there is a fine line between ensuring that all angles have been covered and downright obstructiveness.

There are people around now who are never happy regardless of what is done/thought/proposed and these few sucessfully manage to stir everything up so that it's impossible to get anything done.

Examples of this are "We want mobile phones but not transmitter masts". "We want to conserve fossil fuel but won't allow wind farms to be built". "We want our area to look nice but we don't want you to knock down that eyesore, old, decrepit block of flats". In this case it is "We want oil and all the industry etc it brings but not in our back yard"

Yes, there is a potential issue if something went wrong but we need to trust the people who know what they are talking about. Do you honestly think that Forth Ports haven't bothered to do a comprehensive risk asessment? Do you honestly think that they will not be taking all precautions to ensure that not incidents occur?

Sure enough, there is a risk but there is a risk with everything. The risk of large scale pollution in this case is probably negligable.

People who are objecting to this are either blowing up the risk out of all proportion or simply don't fully understand the processes involved. They are working on the assumption that a large scale spill WILL occur, in the same way that "speed kills" assumes that you WILL crash your car.

THAT is why I say that people who don't understand these things should stay out of the arguement. There are far too many people sticking their noses in on every issue under the sun nowadays and as a result, getting anything done is fast becoming like trying to get the committee of the Popular Front of Judea (or is it the Judean Popular Front) to make a decision.

This sucks and is destined only to get worse in the future unless those who know abo

78

Snakey Eyes,

Blackburn, Lancs 06/03/2007 18:28:56

#78, 79 Andrew

Let's wrap up our chat then.

We both take different things out of Adam Smith and The Enlightenment. None of them negative but different.

We see things with different eyes (mine snakey)

We both like a poke at what we see as entrenched positions.

We both love our country but from differnet perspectives, and we can't stand idle wasters.

That's good enough for me, maybe we'll get to argue some other points in due course.

In the meantime, I don't think we should be using the Forth to transfer oil between ships. What do you reckon?

79

Snakey Eyes,

Blackburn, Lancs 06/03/2007 18:36:39

#79 Andrew

What I was trying to get across is that on any debate, but particularly the one on independence, I think there needs to be a broader debate beyond simply, do we want independence or not. What happens when we get there? Which was where a lot of my original points on the previous forum were coming from.

I probably worded it badly.

80

Andrew Allan,

06/03/2007 18:39:37

Snakey Eyes,#81. There are ways and means to transfer oil, and from ship to ship is by far the most unsafe, unless it is an emergency. In general one of the parties needs to be stationary and fixed. At the very least a go between tank on shore could be used, with safety equipment incase of an emergency in the transfer process.

81

Andrew Allan,

06/03/2007 18:45:15

Snakey Eyes,#82. For a good time now I have been trying to get a debate going on the preperations needed before independence, and a forum similar to the old oyster houses of the Enlightenment times, so those from across the range of views could air them.

82

Andrew Allan,

06/03/2007 18:45:51

Tomorrow

83

IWright,

Edinburgh 06/03/2007 19:19:03

#80
ph "Do you honestly think that Forth Ports haven't bothered to do a comprehensive risk asessment? Do you honestly think that they will not be taking all precautions to ensure that not incidents occur?"

I think you are being naive in expecting the above.

84

the droothy neebur,

06/03/2007 19:51:23

Hope you all bookmark this article and debate, or cut and past it onto a word document to see what your thoughts are when we are faced with the challenge of a big clean up from The Forth River Oil Disaster.

85

the droothy neebur,

06/03/2007 19:58:12

#68, If Fife Council take over the responsibility it'll be renamed The Black Sea!

86

the droothy neebur,

06/03/2007 20:01:26

#75, It's painted green and called S/R Mediterranean, it's here a couple of times a year.

87

Neil,

9% Growth Party 06/03/2007 20:05:03

Droothy will you be coming on here on March 6th 2009 when it hasn't happened?

I have seen an enormous number of false Luddite scares from oil running out in 1980 to everybody having to move inland to get away from the stench of all the dead fish in 1990 (really - Paul Ehrlich said it) to Y2K. I have yet to see a single Luddite come along after the non-event & apologise for being an asshole.

88

Snakey Eyes,

Blackburn, Lancs 06/03/2007 20:08:57

# 84

When you do, count me in!

89

Tim,

Perth, Scotland 06/03/2007 20:11:07

The trouble with the talk of moving it to Orkney is there's also an environment up there...

90

Tim,

Perth, Scotland 06/03/2007 20:15:44

You can also have an industry / economy without having to risk polluting the environment. In fact, if you *can't* have a tourism industry where it's unsafe for people to go for a swim slightly offshore.

91

Sambo,

The deep south 06/03/2007 20:29:44

Abraham one of the oil tanker captains was doubtful about where he would park his big ship. He spoke to the lord, and the lord said.

Go Forth.

92

Graham Simpson,

Vancouver 06/03/2007 20:42:34

So no Scottish elected authority has the right to give or withhold permission to an English company to manage the transfer of Russian crude oil between Bahamian tankers in the Firth of Forth. Instead such a decision now rests in the hands of a private company (FPA) who has full authority to 'manage' these ports and waters for their own benefit.

Does this astonishing situation exist throughout all of Scotland's ports and waters?

Furthermore...do all of you Scottish unionists out there accept this? I would be intrigued to hear of your reasons for not only tolerating this but promoting it's continuation.

#53 Petrol Head...you are quite right! The STS transfer of crude oil is a highly technical subject that few of us fully understand. All the more reason to remove all decision making power from those who engage in this practice for profit and place it in the hands of our own elected representatives.

93

,

06/03/2007 21:51:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 423034, Article id was mapped to record!
94

Paula,

06/03/2007 22:19:46

Here is a vote winner if ever I saw one. Whoever stops this insane idea gets kudos by the bucketload for his/her party. I cannot believe that Forth Ports can override not only all those organisations listed on the front page today but also the Scottish Executive voted for by us lot. This is ridiculous on so many levels, Forth Ports should be ashamed of themselves and if this is their idea of a good business scheme perhaps they are not the best to be looking after such a large part of Scotland.

So do you think we will get independence when the Forth is full of oil spills and we are all Ready Brek glow-in-the-dark from Blair's shiny new nukes?

It is a Tyneside company, do the transfers off that coast!

95

Malky in Dorset,

Poole 07/03/2007 00:12:33

Recently down here we have seen the mess even a container ship can make

Let the Russian mothership fill up in Murmansk

96

Jack the lad,

07/03/2007 00:29:32

I was there at 2 and 56.

Still no one can give even a reasonable reason why we, me , the people living around the Forth Estuary, in Scotland should put up with this.

Come on, there must be a reason why?

No benefit. NO WAY.

97

Navvy,

07/03/2007 01:08:32

Petrolhead and others

Did you read my post #38 Forth Ports are not, in my experienced, to be trusted with pilotage, the use of tugs or honest reporting. They have admitted to not knowing about a spillage by their proposed partner.

Apart from the fact that the entrance to Scapa Flow is in the Pentland firth I see it as a better place. Shorter voyages too.

Some other thoughts
Forth Posts is a quoted PLC, how many of your pension funds have money in Forth Ports? Buy a share and go to the AGM

If we accept this business maybe we will have some leverage with Russia over gas supplies for our central heating

98

The Wizard,

OZ 07/03/2007 03:04:49

#80 Petrolhead

Just picking up on you mention of wind farms.

We have a wind farm despoiling our coast. It was touted as the answer to electricity supply in town. Now they want to build more because their original estimates were far too high but the figures given were probably only meant to fool the public until the furore settled down.
How anyone can support the 180 turbines proposed for Lewis is beyond me. They are costly, inneficient and the infrastucture required is another aid to pollution.
I think the proposal for huge ships in the Forth requires very careful thought and people have a right to express their opinions whether or not they are world experts on the subject.

99

Lori-Mark,

St Andrews 07/03/2007 10:30:10

if you will excuse the analogy - but sounds like Forth Port are to keen to play Russian Roulette.
If the executive can not voice their opinion on this - maybe they should set up a form of safety procedure that stipulates for every "drop" of oil spilled clean-up cost, and heavy fine will be sent to forth ports - I suggest fines set at £1 million per "drop" - then see how keen forth ports are to sell the souls of Edinburgh and Fife for £6 million.

That a company can give serious consideration to this - it is not nimbyism, it is care for the environment - I would be as unimpressed if this was suggested in any world-wide popular tourist AND environment spot....

100

Lori-Mark,

St Andrews 07/03/2007 10:42:23

Also - Petrol Head -
With regards to your analogy of dentists and plumbers -
another one might be - If I see a juggler on the street, I might very well be impressed by the things he can juggle, and how many things he can juggle, and with who he can juggle.
And I'll grant that he knows more about it than me - however - when he juggles with chainsaws, knives and flaming things, I dont think he has place to complain if it all goes wrong - and I dont see why the people in the street should be expected to mop up and deal with his blood, especially when he is lying with £6 million in his back pocket and the street objected from the start to his juggling such things.....

101

Neil,

9% Growth Party 07/03/2007 13:03:43

Lori if we assume that they have public liability insurance (a legal requirement of all companies) then nobody else will have to pay for an improbable mopping up.

102

motorcal,

michigan U.S.A. 07/03/2007 17:30:37

I agree with #8 The transfer should be made in deeper water ,like the Baltic sea off the coast of Russia.

103

seanie,

07/03/2007 19:02:15

The Baltic is fairly shallow and awkward to navigate. The Forth isn't all that deep either but it's broad, relatively sheltered and fairly easy to navigate. There are aspects that make sense for STS transfers, if STS transfers are acceptable.

104

Marag,

Stornoway 07/03/2007 21:57:17

#106 Neil, the problem is that they DON'T all carry insurance, and no-one checks until after an accident happens. It took 8 years for the Scilly Isles to sue for compensation after the sinking of the Cita, and they still got nothing, despite their enormous costs to clean up.

105

Graham Simpson,

07/03/2007 22:37:07

#80 Petrol Head your quote " People who don't understand things should stay out of the argument"...
Really!...You think that only the experts can safely predict the danger of spillage..and therefore decision making on STS oil transfer, should not be in the hands of the general public through their elected representatives.

Have you forgotten so soon, that when the Exxon Valdez slammed into the Alaskan foreshore destroying hundreds of miles of marine habitat and killing thousands of shorebirds and mammals...that the captain was drunk!

Where where all the experts then? I urge everyone who feels socially responsible, and in particular you... Petrol Head (an excellent name by the way) to study at length the website www.valdezscience.com ...and think again!

106

tonywatson58,

france 08/03/2007 04:17:28

A second generation Scot

107

tonywatson58,

france 08/03/2007 05:30:29

Agree with No.16's comments; to unfairly block such ships which actually have an excellent safety/pollution record, is a pure "knee jerk" reaction.

Accidents do happen, people are human after all, but as long as preventative measures are in place, then any damage to the envi

108

tonywatson58,

france 08/03/2007 05:31:14

I agree and concur with No.16's comments; to unfairly block such ships which actually have an excellent safety/pollution record, is a pure "knee jerk" reaction.

Accidents do happen, people are human after all and will make mistakes, but as long as preventative measures are in place, then any damage to the environment from such accidents should be prevented or minimised.

All the previous (negative) so called “green” contributors to this site should consider when they next fill up their cars with petrol and about from where it comes from – it comes from Hound’s Point or Grangemouth- and such ships sail past you every day without any problems.

I also note comments about “a dead river”; the whole of Scotland is dead nowadays from a shipping point of view is it not?

Did I not read today in Lloyd’s List that the last Clyde shipbuilder has gone “pear shaped”?

The Swedes, Italians, Finns, Germans, French apparently can built Cruise ships any comments editor ?


 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 

Featured Advertising



Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.