Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


Entry to EU 'automatic' for Scotland, says Deputy First Minister

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the The Scotsman site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 12 December 2007
AN INDEPENDENT Scotland would "automatically" become a member of the European Union, the Deputy First Minister maintained yesterday.
Nicola Sturgeon told MSPs that both political and legal opinion supported the SNP government's position that there would be no need to renegotiate EU membership after Scotland broke away from the UK.

But opposition MSPs last night warned that Ms Sturgeon's assertion "did not hold water" as it contradicted the recently expressed view of one of Europe's most senior officials.

The new dispute over membership of the EU was prompted by evidence Ms Sturgeon gave to Holyrood's Europe and external relations committee. Ms Sturgeon told MSPs on the committee: "It is the very clear view of the SNP and of the Government that Scotland would automatically be a member of the European Union upon independence.

"There is very clear legal opinion that backs up that position. I don't think the legal position, therefore, is in any doubt."

She said that the political position was "clearer still". As the EU was expanding, "the idea that Scotland would somehow be cast out is incredible and does not bear any sensible scrutiny".

Asked whether an independent Scotland would be required to renegotiate the terms of membership, Ms Sturgeon replied: "No."

Ms Sturgeon said that under international "law of successor states", Scotland "would assume the rights and responsibilities of the UK and that would include automatic membership of the European Union and the overwhelming weight of legal opinion backs up that view".

She said that she could not find credible the argument that the EU would not "enthusiastically" want to have "oil rich" Scotland as a member.

Ms Sturgeon's claims were last night attacked by Labour, which cited a recent interview given by Joe Borg, the EU fisheries commissioner, to The Scotsman.

In September, Mr Borg stated unequivocally that in his view, an independent Scotland would remain outside the EU until it had completed the formal application process - in the same way as eastern European states have done in recent years.

He added: "If we were to assume that Scotland gained independence and therefore is eligible as a new member state for the European Union, I would see that, legally speaking, the continuation of the membership would remain with the rest of the UK, less Scotland.

"And, therefore, Scotland, as a newly independent state, would have to apply for membership."

Jackie Baillie, Labour's shadow minister for parliamentary business, said: "The SNP's assumption that Scotland would immediately get a place at the European table just doesn't hold any water.

"The EU's fisheries commissioner said earlier this year that Scotland would be forced to apply and that means there's no presumption of membership being granted.

"It's about time the SNP were honest enough to admit that our place in Europe is in jeopardy if Scotland is wrenched out of the United Kingdom."

The Scottish Government was last night unable to supply details of the legal advice that Ms Sturgeon said she had on the issue of EU membership.

However, in the past the SNP has cited the late Robin Cook who, the party claims, said when he was foreign secretary that an independent Scotland would remain a member of the EU.

A spokesman for the EU said: "We do not comment on hypothetical situations."

AN UNPRECEDENTED SITUATION


THERE is no precedent of a member state breaking up, which means the issue of an independent Scotland's position within the EU is under speculation.

Greenland, a dependency of Denmark, left voluntarily in 1985 over a dispute about fishing rights. International case law favours the notion that the larger entity in a political break-up is usually designated the inheritor of all treaty obligations. This would therefore leave Scottish ministers having to negotiate not just membership of the EU, but of the United Nations and the WTO. However, many argue it would not benefit the EU to fracture borders, at a time when it is engaged in enlargement.

The full article contains 667 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Karin M,

12/12/2007 00:44:34

the article says however many argue
it would not benefit the EU to fracture borders, at a time when it is engaged in enlargement.

who said this who are the MANY.

why no source.

2

Karin M,

12/12/2007 00:45:14

1 dont you make me get my mccrone out.

3

druidh,

12/12/2007 00:45:44

"Joe Borg, the EU fisheries commissioner"

Ah yes - the well known constitutional expert.

4

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 00:48:51

1. AM2 - are you quoting the Fisheries Commissioner, who prefixed his remarks with a statement of his non-expertise in the area, and the fact it is nothing to do with his remit? What a solid basis for your opinions, as ever.


I wonder, is Jersey part of the EU?

5

TommyKaye,

UK 12/12/2007 00:48:58

Time for your medication AM2

6

druidh,

12/12/2007 00:49:35

I can just see the "negotiations"...

Scotland: policy of accepting immigrants, large oil producer, massive potential for wind/wave energy, EUs largest fisheries.....


England: racist europhobes, net importer of energy, in back pocket of USA . . .


Which one do you think the Euros will want?

7

Karin M,

12/12/2007 00:49:43

how about westinister saying europe would be foolish to not let scotland join. in the mccrone report.
"As the
major producer of oil in Western Europe, however, Scotland would be in a key
position and other countries would be extremely foolish if they did not seek to
do all they could to accommodate Scottish interests."

8

,

12/12/2007 00:50:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1222581, Article id was mapped to record!
9

Karin M,

12/12/2007 00:51:21

5 i dont know ayrshire its certainly not part of the UK for electoral purposes like erm donations to political parties.

10

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 00:52:03

9 AM

it doesn't matter if the UK is a signatory, the UK will not be adjudicating.

Are you saying they will oppose a democratic vote by Scots? I happen to have a higher regard for our our EU partners belief in democracy and self-determination.

11

Karin M,

12/12/2007 00:52:24

9 and it wouldnt be britain that would be signing up according to you it would be scotland.

12

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 00:53:01

11. Karin - you would think Jackie Baillie should study UK electoral law before pronouncing on EU treaty law? Or perhaps her grasp of both is a little, "unwitting"?

13

,

12/12/2007 00:54:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1222596, Article id was mapped to record!
14

TommyKaye,

UK 12/12/2007 00:56:00

Oh dear AM2 more labour money stories maybe time to invade another country for a bit of deflection:

Tories Call for an Inquiry into Balls' Bung
Tories are calling for a Civil Service inquiry into the circumstances surrounding a 2005 payment of nearly £100,000 to Ed Balls from the already under statutory investigation Smith Institute. The payment was allegedly for his work on two pamphlets published by the Institute. Ex-employees confirm that he was never seen at the Institute's offices during his 8 month tenure despite being paid an unheard of monthly salary of over £10,000.

The Smith Institute was used as a slush fund for the Brownies. It functioned effectively as Gordon's policy and political secretariat in his long putsch for the premiership. Once Gordon Brown was installed in No. 10, Konrad Caulkett moved seamlessly from his executive position at the Smith Institute to become a Special Adviser in Downing Street. During Konrad's time at the supposedly non-political charity he assisted Ed Ball's 2005 election campaign in his Normanton constituency whilst still drawing a salary from the charity.
up for Ed Balls' generous payments package? Could it have been wealthy property developer John Milligan? Pictured here with Brown, he is a trustee of Gordon's charity, the Smith Institute, has given tens of thousands to the Labour party and even made a personal donation of £25,000 to Gordon's leadership coffers.

For some strange reason Ed Balls failed to properly declare his income from the Smith Institute or get the necessary Treasury clearance required for a Special Adviser before taking the sinecure. The rules were designed to prevent conflicts of interest. It also turned out that the Treasury had made undeclared payments to the Smith Institute, by mistake of course, which were only discovered when Guido succeeded in pushing the Charity Commissioners to investigate. They were the result of a mix-up according to yet another Smith Institute

15

Lianachan,

Highlands 12/12/2007 00:59:40

#1

Two links to The Scotsman - that well known, totally balanced and unbiased guide to the state of Scottish politics.

16

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 01:01:00

18. The idea of the Scottish Labour party, with their little "international" confusions recently, are an authority on international law is, to say the least, less than credible.

Are you suggesting there would be a legal bar to Scottish continued membership? The only legal precedent is Greenland, which WANTED to LEAVE the EU, but on gaining dominion status had to negotiate out from a basis of continued membership.

Please explain why Scotland would be different and how the EU, at a time of spiralling oil prices and middle East instability, would benefit from expulsion of 80% of it oil?

17

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 01:02:38

18. AM2 - could you point to the relevant part of the EU treaty where expulsion of a member state, or part of a member state, is an enumerated part or described process?

18

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 01:04:09

21 (where there is no material breach of human rights conditions of membership, of course - as Scottish Labour MSPs who may potentially face prison over illegal donations will be treated humanely, this should not be a concern)

19

,

12/12/2007 01:10:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1222629, Article id was mapped to record!
20

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 01:18:09

23 AM2 - agreeing with the SNP are 2 Former Directors General of the Commission, a head of the EU Commission legal department, and one of the most esteemed experts on constitutional law. You omit of course Robin Cook, as Labour Foreign Secretary, who also agreed that Scotland would be a member.

Greenland is a close to a precedent as exists, and supports very strongly the view expressed by Ms Sturgeon.

You have ommitted Jackie Baillie and Wendy Alexander, noted experts in "international" law (and postage rates) in the anti list....

21

subrosa,

12/12/2007 01:18:39

I've decided all the unionists are concerned about is the money received from our oil. They have no interest as to whether we sink or swim otherwise. The rest of the arguments are just smoke and mirrors to keep the Scots in line with the requirements of the UK government.

Now AM2 don't start on about the oil will run out etc. It's not even running in Iraq and we're STILL in there putting our service personnel in extreme jeopardy just for the sake of greed.

22

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 01:19:17

21 Ayrshire Scot™

"There is no mechanism to eject a member state, but you're wrong to append “or part of a member state” as if it's in the same category"

Is there a mechanism to eject part of a member state or a successor state then? Please point to the EU treaty which describes this?

23

walter,

12/12/2007 01:25:06

The EU will make the decision on Scotland being a automatic member or having to apply and then negotiate membership.
Sturgeon does not have a clue what she is talking about she is waffling a heap of rubbish and the vast majority of comments that will be posted here will be the exact same.
Until such times as Scotland votes for independence and that does not look like it will happen at any time in the near future no one can say what the situation will be reference EU membership.
If and when and only when Scotland vote for independence will the EU even bother seriously looking at the situation.

24

Senga Jean,

Scotland 12/12/2007 01:29:47

Utter brainwashing. The EU are desperate to make sure resource rich states like Scotland are retained. I am not so sure about England however.

25

The Strategist,

12/12/2007 01:52:11

Of course there's the question as to whether Scotland would be better being a full member of the EU or being a "semi detached" member like Norway.

One of the reasons - I'm told by a Norwegian friend - that Norway has held off being a full member is that they get some form of exemption from the rules on State Aid. Here of course the civil service apply all EU rules to the letter whereas other full members seem to only adopt those rules that suit them and bend the other rules to suit their national interest.

Anyhow, I would hope that when it comes to it Scotland will hold a referendum on the issue.

26

,

12/12/2007 01:55:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
27

Mercutio,

Falkirk 12/12/2007 02:11:03

#32 That is one alliance that did not benefit Scotland.

28

sjs,

Edinburgh 12/12/2007 02:14:19

If the EU were stupid enough to take Scotland out of the EU and make them re-apply then Scotland would simply join the European Economic Area - and the European Free Trade Association. These instiutions - including countries like Norway - allow countries to trade freely with Europe without being part of the European Union proper.

That way Scotland would get the benefit of trade with Europe without the downside of being bossed about by the EU. By doing this in fact, the EU risks LOSING Scotland from the EU altogether!! Because Scotland might decide it loves the EFTA and decide never to apply for the silly EU. Surely the eurocrats in Brussels are not stupid enough to lose part of the EU just because they'd want Scotland to go through the lengthy (it'd take years) process of re-applying?

Really what Salmond and Sturgeon MUST MUST MUST do is speak to the European Union and get a proper answer. ""We do not comment on hypothetical situations."" is not good enough, the EU should give Scotland a straight answer on what would happen if we became independent because it is VERY important and is actually damaging the cause for independence by not answering. Have the balls and owe up to it; or are you scared your own countries will fragment?

This is an unprecedented scenario, but for one area of the EU to suddenly become not an area of the EU just because of a slight change in the powers of the Scottish Parliament (i.e. complete fiscal powers and defence) is diabolical, and the rest of the EU and world would laugh out loud and ridicule the European Union for such stupid idiotic eurocracy.

29

JB2003,

12/12/2007 02:29:02

5 - the channel islands and the Isle of Mann are not part of the EU. They have a lesser relationship with the EU which I think entitles them to certain benefits (more akin to a trade treaty if I recall correctly by virtue of a protocol to the EC Treaty) but the big difference is that their people are not considered EU citizens and are not entitled to free movement of people and entitlement to work etc.

I think the bottom line is that Channel Islanders are entitled to live and work in the UK but can't do so in other EU countries.

30

Darryl Matheson,

Elgin, Morayshire 12/12/2007 02:36:39

Well it is fine for her to say that, but she is lying. She knows what she is saying is not correct.

31

LETS DISCUSS WENDYGATE....,

Because the Scotsman wants it buried 12/12/2007 02:37:44

How many times are they going to drag out this hoary old chestnut. It's been done to death over and over again on these boards. stop it already.

This "report" is about one thing.... and one thing only....... deflecting attention from WENDYGATE.

Crude tabloid stuff..... but it's a good measure of how low The Scotsman has sunk.

Dont let the Labourman suppress Wendygate.
Keep the fire burning here on their boards.

Poetic justice.

32

Royster,

12/12/2007 02:50:23

I'm sure Scotland would be allowed in but it wouldn't be automatic. This is SNP posturing. Oil would become a common European resource as with fishing now.

33

Royster,

12/12/2007 02:53:18

#32. Ah the Auld Alliance. Of course, the French have always been reliable allies as much as I love them.

34

,

12/12/2007 03:03:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
35

The central scrutinizer,

SCOTLAND 12/12/2007 03:03:53

How childish,your not getting into our gang,and at the end of the day europe is becoming one big peice of sh#t anyway.

36

LETS DISCUSS WENDYGATE....,

Because the Scotsman wants it buried 12/12/2007 03:05:15

This report is just one more part of the Scotsman smokescreen to divert us from the real political issue of the day....WENDYGATE.

WENDYGATE..... WENDYGATE..... WENDYGATE......

Why is the Scotsman suppressing all discussion of the illegal fundraising activities of Wendy Alexander and the Scottish Labour Party???

The silence from the Scotsman on the biggest political scandal currently discrediting the Labour Party in Scotland and their leader Wendy Alexander is disgraceful. This is no less than partisan political activity in support of the Labour party by The Scotsman.

They have also been removing most posts criticising their suppression of Wendygate.

Labour are in meltdown over their illegal money deals and the Scottish Party is ripping itself apart internaly. Forget this nonsense of full support for Wendy.... just watch what's coming. Wendy is finished. The knives are out. There is no SNP mole feeding sensitive Labour documents to the press.... the leaks are coming from Wendys enemies within Scottish Labour. And she has many.

It's the biggest political news event currently on the go.... yet from The "Scotsman",..... silence......

37

Julian,

12/12/2007 03:09:20

#37 LETS DISCUSS WENDYGATE

You must be joking. This isn't about deflecting attention from Wendygate. This is all about Sturgeon trying to give credibility to the notion that we might become independent despite the fact only 28% support it. I bet when she picks up today's Scotsman she'll be more than happy to have attention on this issue rather than Wendygate.

38

,

12/12/2007 03:10:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
39

,

12/12/2007 03:16:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
40

,

12/12/2007 03:18:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1222834, Article id was mapped to record!
41

Julian,

12/12/2007 03:20:57

#45,

When exactly is the coming independence?

I seem to recall something about "free by '93"

I assume they must have been talking about 2093'-)

42

Exiled Scot,

New York 12/12/2007 03:21:01

Using this logic wouldn't the rump UK also have to re-negotiate entry? It is independence from the UK that is under question not from the EU. BTW I don't remember Yugoslavia being part of the EU so I don't follow that reference.

43

Julian,

12/12/2007 03:22:12

#24 Gnasher

I doubt we could form a union with Slovakia since they are already part of the EU.

Serbia perhaps?

44

Edward,

12/12/2007 03:23:42

#36 Darryl Matheson, Elgin, Morayshire
Why dont you come up with some words of wisdom and state why Scotland would not automatically become a member of the EU
Remeber try and stick to facts and not hear say!
Please dont quote either Labour politicians who are just a bunch of crooks anyway, nor quote some idiot Maltese polician who is clueless on constitutional matters (even he admited that)
Clocks ticking

45

Happyhibee1956,

Southampton 12/12/2007 03:24:43

AM2

Do you actually do any work over there or does your houseboy do it all for you?

All I ever seem to to see is your right wing drivel on any subject that takes your fancy, whether you know what your talking about or not.

46

,

12/12/2007 03:26:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
47

Edward,

12/12/2007 03:27:28

#42 LETS DISCUSS WENDYGATE
I understand the latest count on illegal cheques to the Scottish Labour party is now at TWO
Funily enough squeaky Wendy denies knowing about them, despite the fact that her husband is known to have pointed out the questionable payments to her at the time
Think its about time Wendy was taking in for questioning

48

,

12/12/2007 03:38:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
49

Auckland Arab2,

12/12/2007 03:48:01

This whole EU thing is a non story. All the former Soviet colonies are being ushered in, Malta, Cyprus et al; and The Hootsmon is trying to create a story out of Scotland not being able to join, again. Yawn. Automatic or not no sane person can seriously argue that this will be an issue when the time comes.

50

Julian,

12/12/2007 03:50:53

#52 Macalba

Thanks for that, and I'll have my Kodak ready.

One small innaccuracy. The majority of our population did not vote SNP. Of those that voted, only 39% voted SNP, so by your logic that will be the referendum result as well.

Unfortunately, it's not as good as that. Only about 65% who voted SNP actually support independence and the latest polls show support for independence at it's lowest ebb (28%) for 10 years.

Sorry to say that the reason Salmond is in Bute house is that he has a strong, likeable personality. But more important was the disillusionment with MacConnell/Blair/New Labour.

51

Julian,

12/12/2007 03:54:16

#55 Auckland Arab.

I agree, it would be a non-issue. However, if I were Nicola Sturgeon I would be dancing with glee at today's headline as it gives credibility to those who want to break from the union. It is being given the spotlight as if it is something that is going to happen.

52

scotleag,

12/12/2007 03:55:47

The SNP ranters seem to forget that all member states have to sign up to EU treaties.

The SNP opposes the Lisbon treaty. It wants a referendum on it and a rejection of it. This policy was adopted UNANIMOUSLY at the recent SNP conference.

Ergo an independent Scotland which rejected the Lisbon treaty would be ineligible for EU membership.

Nicola Sturgeon knows this.

Darryl Matheson at 36 is correct. Sturgeon is lying.

53

scotleag,

12/12/2007 04:00:43

56 Julian. The SNP didn't get 39%. They actually polled just under 33% in the constituencies and 31% in the 'additional members' vote

54

Ian MacBeth,

12/12/2007 04:03:13

'In September, Mr Borg stated unequivocally that in his view,'

Yes Peter, in an interview with this newspaper. He also said that he was not an expert on EC law and it was only his uneducated opinion.

Why didn't you write that in your article?

55

williamx,

delta,Canada 12/12/2007 05:15:37

The EU party in Brussels would be too rich for Scotland. Keep your independence and do bilateral trade deals with individual nations like the Swedes,Norway and Denmark. Do you still want to be throwing away perfectly good fish under EU rules?

56

EWB,

UK 12/12/2007 05:42:14

An independent Scotland in the EU is an illusion as 70% of all UK legislation already comes from Brussels. The present Union (since 1707) is being overwhelmed by the European Union.

Scotland will have to accept the CFP just as the UK had to accept existing EEC legislation back in 1973.

As the EU becomes the federal state of Europe as a consequence of the ratification of the EU Reform Treaty, so Scotland will have to concede that her oil will become an EU resource.

#61's suggestion is better. Scotland should model herself on Norway, not Ireland or Denmark, and become an associate member. Her fish and her oil would be under her control and she could trade with the EU.

The alternative for Scotland in the federal EU superstate will be to become "the best wee region in Europe". You cannot be in the EU and independent at the same time.

57

Auckland Arab2,

12/12/2007 06:12:30

#62

Nice to see the isolationists out in force. Whatever your British national views they certainly don't apply to Scotland. Better if you and the rest of the Europhobes down south did us a favour and left the EU.

58

,

12/12/2007 06:55:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1222985, Article id was mapped to record!
59

McNasty,

Edinburgh 12/12/2007 07:14:47

Julian

If you stick a couple of fingers down your throat you will feel an awful lot better.

60

Queen D,

Glasgow 12/12/2007 07:30:59

Labour donation stories in the Telegraph,have a look!

61

Royster,

12/12/2007 07:31:57

This is a total non-issue. a) Nicola Sturgeon is a waste of space b) Independence is still pie-in-the-sky (actually better make that 3 pies just for Salmond) and c) even if Scotland did have to apply as an independent country, its application procedure would probably amount to little more than a formality ie "Describe in 500 words or less why you wish to be a member of the EU."

62

eddylongshanks,

12/12/2007 07:36:57

lol, so you get toyr independence by leaving the UK to immediately hand over sovereignty to the EU !! Is that because they will make up the loss of the Barnett cash ?

63

conservative,

Fife 12/12/2007 07:43:36

It doesn't matter anyway. Independence will never happen because most people (over 75% at the last count) are opposed to it. Once the Labour backlash has died down things will get back to normal and the SNP will go back to being another protest party like the Greens.

64

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 12/12/2007 07:47:21

While it's all very well the SNP saying we'll get in to Europe autommatically - isn't that up to Europe and surely until some with authority from Europe actually says one way or the other, is this actually worth debating?

Parties in Scotland can argue all they like over this - it means nothing.

65

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 12/12/2007 07:48:56

Even if it weren't automatic - I doubt it would take long for them to join as Royster says - "Describe in 500 words or less why you wish to be a member of the EU."

Marks off for poor spelling and grammar.

66

Stanley Unwin,

Jackies Comb Over ate my Hamster 12/12/2007 07:49:59

JB's dis-qualifications.

Born Hong Kong.
Went to private school.
Was a social worker.


Scotland should 'know its place'.

67

John S,

12/12/2007 07:52:30

We are already citizens of the EU and by default via the UK, Scotland is also party to the existing agreements and treaties.
It doesn't matter what the SNP say about the Lisbon Treaty if the UK Government plus the other 26 EU countries accept this treaty it will be law and merge into the existing agreements and treaties.
The EU will find it simplier to let the UK keep the name and Scotland to become another country within the EU and as long as both accept the existing agreements and treaties up until the time of their application this would mean automatic entry for both the UK and Scotland.

68

Royster,

12/12/2007 07:53:09

#66. You have a look. We're reading The Scotsman.

69

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 12/12/2007 07:56:32

Well if when we leave we are not in the EU then we will have to detain all those all those European Fishing Vessels that would now be fishing illegally in Scottish waters. Not to mention all the EU nationals working in Scotland who would now be illegal migrants. Don't let any tell you the EU would deny Scotland full membership from the outset.

70

eddylongshanks,

12/12/2007 08:04:26

#75 - how will you do that without a Navy ?

71

BMeister,

12/12/2007 08:11:19

#76 And why wouldn't we have a navy?

72

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 12/12/2007 08:21:45

Being totally ignorant of the law and having read all the above is it not the case that if the UK broke up all the bits would technically no longer be in the EU ?

73

eddylongshanks,

12/12/2007 08:21:52

Just wondered who would man it if you get your % of ships - I cant see the SNP allowing English sailors to be the dominant personnel on a ship, be a bit like the French manning the RN ?

74

Iain fae Elgin,

London 12/12/2007 08:22:49

"She said that she could not find credible the argument that the EU would not "enthusiastically" want to have "oil rich" Scotland as a member."

I may have been an SNP voter all my life, but short term blinkered attitudes like this make me despair.
The SNP unfortunately seem to think that oil is an infinite resource. Come up with some long term financial plans that DONT involve the decreasing revenue from oil please.....

75

Roy,

12/12/2007 08:24:33

I've asked this question before. If Belgium splits, would both Flanders and Walloonia be expelled from the EU? This would leave the European parliament sited in a non-EU country. Would the Eurocrats then be served eviction orders?

76

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 12/12/2007 08:25:25

#76 I seem to recall a lot of Trident armed subs in Holy Loch. I am sure eddy that the English will happy to trade 5 or 6 Destroyers for them.

77

eddylongshanks,

12/12/2007 08:26:46

#82 they would be moved to the Thames just outside Westminster

78

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 12/12/2007 08:30:43

#83 The lads at the Finsbury Park Mosque are overjoyed at your suggestion.

79

mr angry,

ayrshire 12/12/2007 08:31:39

#67 Royster you are a buffoon

80

Alex.,

12/12/2007 08:44:36

If Scotland is not part of the EU the EU fishing boats would have no right to fish in Scottish waters. Funny how things can cut both ways. The Spanish would hate it and push Scotland's case. You would think an EU fisheries commissioner would have thought of that. Not that one man makes the decision.

81

Pugsley,

12/12/2007 08:44:48

Just wait til Belgium splits into three (as is a more of an immediate possibilty right now than Scottish independence) and see if the newly independent Brussels Region, gets kicked out of the EU. I think not !

82

Pugsley,

12/12/2007 08:47:01

And whilst I'm at it - why is independence OK for Kosova (backed by USA and the EU) but not for Scotland ?

83

Mercutio,

Falkirk 12/12/2007 08:47:47

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

84

BMeister,

12/12/2007 08:48:01

79 eddLS

and likewise I can't imagine the Scots sailors remaining in the English Navy, so they could man them.

85

Rob,

12/12/2007 08:49:19

Ms Sturgeon clearly harbours ambitions of emulating Mrs Thatcher swinging her handbag around in Brussels. Does she really think anyone will bother to listen to her?

All she would get from Brussels is a bill!

Clearly not much news today to carry this drivel.

86

Paul Morant,

12/12/2007 08:49:52

Scotland can only become independent by agreement with the rest of the UK via the Parliament at Westminster.
Any such agreement would have to resolve the issue of EU membership of Scotland and of the new UK, and these would have to be negotiated with the EU before independence.
Otherwise Scotland would be acting unilaterally and illegally, precedents being Rhodesia and the United States.

87

Alex.,

12/12/2007 08:53:23

#76. Do you really think Scotland won't be entitled to its share of UK assets such as the navy? You obviously think England owns everything. Wrong! And believe me, enough Scots are in the navy to man a Scottish navy.

88

bornNbred,

Perth 12/12/2007 08:54:35

The question should not be "will we get automatic entry to the EU?"

The questions hould be "Do we want to be in the EU?"

It like many outdated useless institutions fails to be truly representative and is to the majority of nations harmful to their interests. There seems to be a common opinion that if it harms everyone a little bit it must be ok! What tosh!!

See
http://www.scottishenterpriseparty.org/

for a more appropriate suggestion of our place in the union!!

89

South Ayrshire Sanny Hossack,

12/12/2007 08:54:40

who cares, its a total no brainer for Scotland to become independent, tell me when its going to happen and my tribe will move south, it will be like the highland clearances again only on a bigger scale who would want to stay in a place full of tartan clad nutters talking about when we had oil, and how cheap whisky is without paying the Chancers tax, no thanks not for me, scotland could well become a muslim state when we all move out!

90

Pugsley,

12/12/2007 08:55:25

Sorry - didnt see #81 ! But if Belgium did spilit it would be into three new states - four if you count the German-speaking area of Eupen-Malmedy.

91

Bobo,

12/12/2007 08:58:24

Oh no, it's like the 3rd of May never happened. These ludicrous scare stories are starting to appear on an almost daily basis.


We'll be back to getting a daily dose of the chaos, conflict and whatever the other c was that Wendy was always banging on about in the election campaign if this carries on much longer.

Really, how can any serious newspaper in Scotland really believe that our country would be expelled from the EU if we left the UK - for goodness sake grow up and treat your readers with some respect.

92

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 12/12/2007 08:59:48

#94 Do you mean "become a muslim state" like England?

93

Catina,

12/12/2007 09:00:24

Independence would be the worst possible thing for your ecomony. Why on earth would you want to lose the power of the pound??

94

pppink,

12/12/2007 09:10:29

What a bonnie clever lassie she is. Makes the ugly sisters look and sound gross.

The question is rather would Scotland accept the EU's offers. Although it would all have been decided before in a vestry in Linlithgo with no Englishmen present.

I'm off to the Telegraph to read about WENDYGATE
;-))))

95

Proud2Be,

Scotland 12/12/2007 09:11:10

My question is simple:

why are we talking about this now? Lets get independence first and then decide if the EU is worthy of our patronage?

seems we are putting the cart before the horse!

Also if, as some on this thread believe, we have not a hope of getting our freedom from English rule why are our ministers wasting our time discussing it?

96

Bad Yin,

All at Sea 12/12/2007 09:12:03

The EU would accept Bangladesh as a member if it could get away with it. Who says we want to be members? I think we need to vote on this.

97

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 12/12/2007 09:13:13

#98 The Pound was at 1.48 Euros 12 months ago, it is now at 1.39. Hardly what I would call strength.

98

pppink,

12/12/2007 09:18:12

And before I go - please don't let the 'him' divert things - just ignore him, he is your arch troll.

Just posts stuff to get noticed and divert from legitimate discussion and invite argument to feed his ego. Classic troll stuff.

99

Sgritheall,

Switzerland 12/12/2007 09:19:06

Many contributors seem to think that the EU ought to join Scotland - and be grateful it it is accepted!

100

Catina,

12/12/2007 09:21:36

still stronger than the euro isnt it?

101

gus1940,

12/12/2007 09:23:28

#98

The Euro seems to be doing not bad on the international currency markets.

102

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 12/12/2007 09:23:34

#98 Besides Scotland does not have real pounds anyway just try and change your Bank of Scotland notes overseas and see what rate you get.

103

BMeister,

12/12/2007 09:24:33

#96 Bobo

'chaos, conflict and whatever the other c was that Wendy was always banging on about in the election campaign'

Was it cheques?

104

Gtj,

Dundee 12/12/2007 09:25:30

AM2 you say there is only 23% support for independence, and yet there is 100% support for independence in my household which seems a dramatic contradiction to your figures.

The bottom line is that no one knows how much support for independence is out there, not even you. The only way to determine the exact figure is to hold a referendum.

Unfortunately this may take some time as the opposition parties are too scared to let the peolpe of Scotland decide for themseves.

The reason for this is clear, they fear the people just might say YES.

105

Logician,

Brussels 12/12/2007 09:25:42

What desperate stuff from Labour and the Scotsman

How would Borg know? Is he speaking for anyone but himself. Has he consulted the Commission3s legal service-no. Its just makey up stuff from Labour and a few pals, crazy. Of course Sturgeon is right.

Finally just for AM2s benefit, the fact that the UK has not signed this or that convention has nothing to do with the operation of the law of state succession. It will operate because that is the law. How do you imagine the Brits would stop that. A Gunboat perhaps to theFlanders coast. !!

The last remark in the article is tosh. It does not turn on size. If the law does not apply we have a total legal vacuum for everyone, not just the successor states. It would allow a rogue state anywhere to abrogate every international commitment.

the Labour party is intellectually bankrupt if this is the kind of "argument" they now deploy. As to the Scotsman...

106

Paddi,

12/12/2007 09:26:09

#103, Have you ever considered that it might be Euro strength and not £ weakness that has led to the current rate??? Orang Kayu!

terima kasih

107

victor meldruid,

st ronans 12/12/2007 09:38:30

Is this not a divorce we are talking about?

Are we getting independence or is the rest of the UK?

Does this mean that England will have to re-apply?

So many questions - so little confidence.

108

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 12/12/2007 09:40:04

#112 Thats Orang Kaya not Orang Kayu, since my contract is in Euro's.
Translation: Orang Kayu: Wooden Man. Orang Kaya: Rich Man

109

Doug Douglas,

Brisbane 12/12/2007 09:42:20

Slips @ 99

can you explain, in economic/fiscal terms, 'the power of the pound'?

110

Catina,

12/12/2007 09:45:13

#108 my bank of scotland notes fetch the same rate as the bank of england notes overseas.

111

Doug Douglas,

Brisbane 12/12/2007 09:48:19

#113

Exactly

The UK as we know and understand it would no longer exist.

If one of the constituent parts was booted out of the EU all would.

No weight can be given to Borg's views on this matter , he is an ex Fisheries 'expert' (some expert given the perilous condition of Europe's fisheries)

Another non-story from the Scotsman, what is quite disturbing is that this is just a re-hash of what they wrote in September.

112

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 12/12/2007 09:49:26

#93 If one looks at when the South seceded from the Union they had to purchase the federal military bases and equipment.

I doubt the UK or former UK as it would be, would be any less inclined to hand over military assets so easily.

113

Chris.J,

12/12/2007 09:50:52

An interesting parallel, and possible future precedent, is Belgium - where there is a very real possibility that Wallonia may split away. Nobody is being stupid enough to suggest that this would require either of the new countries to leave the EU and reapply - it would mean that the principal capital of the EU (Brussels) would be outside the community! Of course the real politics of the mean that this isn't going to happen, just as there is no question that Scotland would be ejected from the EU as the Scotsman/Labour scaremongers are suggesting.
And as for Borg..... is this rag really implying that the EU's fisheries man would like to see the Scottish fleet and territory disappear from his control? Err... that'll be a no.

Anyway, isn't this just desperate rehashed rubbish? I take it that the Scotsman's co-ordinated attempts to make Wendy popular (or even likeable) are floundering?

114

Steve,

Bo'ness 12/12/2007 09:53:22

Absolutely inconceivable that Scotland would be denied very quick, if not instant entry to the EU.
Slovakia, Bulgaria, Romania, Malta, Lithuania, what do they have that Scotland is lacking?

115

Former opponent,

12/12/2007 09:54:29

#92 has it right.

Whatever may be said, this isn't a settled issue.

Scotland's position post-independence would have to be settled before independence, both in terms of (1) What people in Scotland would like the position to be (membership of the EU, membership of the EEA, etc); and then (2) what the position would actually be at one minute past midnight after independence.

Leaving this question unanswered or unaddressed until after independence, or assuming the answer, is simply stupidity.

The reason NS and the SNP want to say that Scotland would "automatically" be a member of the EU is that it makes the SNP and independence "safer" - i.e. - "independence won't make any difference to the vast amount of stuff that is now controlled by the EU, so let's have independence for control of the rest" rather than "independence would change everything".

I accept that many supporters of independence would be more than happy with the latter proposition but the SNP does use continued mambership of the EU to argue that all that would happen would be "independence-lite". That cannot be taken for granted.

116

JimC,

12/12/2007 09:56:27

Thought I was dreaming, I was sure I had read all this before and commented on it in the past on these pages. Or is it the hootsmon jumping at every chance to bash any comment from the SNP - so tiresome its getting I refuse to comment.

117

Alan B,

12/12/2007 09:58:48

It always amazes me that unionist want an independent scotland to be refused automatically entry into the EU. It just seems so desparate. Surely as UK government should be ensuring that all component parts of the UK can remain within the EU, so that the people of the UK can choose there democratic destiny, without fear.

Also why can unionist not say something positive in regard to the UK. It always comes down to a fear agenda. Uncontrollable deficits, economic meltdown and ejected for the EU.

118

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 12/12/2007 09:58:57

#118 Nick Byrne, what are you talking about? The American Civil War? The South Declared their Independance buying firing on Union Military bases. (Fort Sumter) not purchasing them. Are you sure your in Glasgow mate. Look outside, if you see a canal you are probably waking up from a Night in Amsterdam.

119

Stephen101,

WENDYGATE ... keep going 12/12/2007 10:04:07

The good news is that ANYTHING SNP say or do is going to get massive coverage from the Scotsman in the quest to keep the Wendy story quiet.

If Alec Salmon picks his nose, it will merit a 2 page spread in the Scotsman with a choice of photographs.

And of course AM2 rises to the bait of the irrelevant and the nonsensical again. (He really comes across as a miserable sod with a personality bypass).

I know, you know, the SNP know, everybody bl**dy knows that independence is off the table AT LEAST for the next 5 years or so.

So let's wave flags by all means we don't have to believe it. It just keeps the Unionists on the back foot and scrabbling around for more and more unconvincing arguments.

120

Paddi,

12/12/2007 10:05:04

#114, I don't think a translation is necessary as my Bahasa will be better than yours, Orang Kayu is an idiom as well you know. Well done for being paid in euros, you must be hartawan .

121

Jambo Number 1,

12/12/2007 10:11:09

It is quite ridiculous for any sensible person to suggest that the EU would kick an independent Scotland out.

Scotland not only meets the criteria for joining but would be a net contributor to the Union.

To suggest that the powers that be (who I seem to remember coming to the Edinburgh Summit??) would deny us that is nothing but Unionist scaremongering.

What possible logical reason can AM or any other Unionist give for the EU denying us?

?? Please, you Unionists do not help yourselves some times!! You will argue black is blue!! It doesn't help your case that you chose to argue ANY point, no matter how imprudent.

122

McTalk,

12/12/2007 10:16:09

An EU region seeking EU membership as an independent country. Yes, that is going to be non-controversial and not require any negotiation.

Since Salmond has appointed professor Sir Neil McCormick as his European advisor, why doesn't the SNP get McCormick to stand up and say "I think this is completely non-controversial and membership will be completely automatic". McCormick is a professor of public law, and for many years served as SNP MEP. People across Europe would listen to his opinion. But perhaps the accepted wisdom about Scottish membership isn't as simple as the spin doctors want to make out.

123

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 12/12/2007 10:16:20

#116 Slips When we are talking overseas we don't mean Carlisle. The only place in South East Asia that will accept Scottish Bank Notes is Singapore and their you will get 80p on the pound.

124

Catina,

12/12/2007 10:22:04

#129... i live in africa so if they can accept scottish notes for the same rate anyone can..

125

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 12/12/2007 10:28:58

#130 That would be South Africa? which along with Canada, Australia and New Zealand you will get the same rate as English Notes. As for the rest of the world good luck.

126

Gregor Addison,

Scotland 12/12/2007 10:29:17

This is just another example of Scotland's "add-on" status as part of an unequal union; a view supported by many of the unionists on this site. If Scotland and England are equals, after independence both would surely remain outside of the EU until their applications had been granted. Why is it only Scotland that would have to apply? Has England some status in Europe that Scotland hasn't?

127

Senga Jean,

Scotland 12/12/2007 10:31:09

#129 The world and his auntie are buying the Euro so Scotland would be fine .Independent in Europe. Much prefer being an equal partner than a patronised pup.

128

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 12/12/2007 10:35:47

#124 The Confederacy siezed federal property - forts etc - tried to pay for it and the Union refused and demanded that all federal property remain in Union hands - I would expect the UK to do the same - what's unclear about that?

129

DaveK,

Edinburgh 12/12/2007 10:36:31

What is it with SNP women and their eyebrows? I think sometimes they have the wrong kind of pluck now they are in government!

130

Rasco,

12/12/2007 10:38:55

Questions.If Scotland is not going to be a member and has to negotiate entry it must mean that within that time Scotland will have control of its fishing rights and oil coming from its waters could it also do what Iceland did and put a 200 mile limit on.the people who say we would have to renegotiate can't have it both ways.

131

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 12/12/2007 10:39:27

#124 and the South declared Independence well beofre the incident at Fort Sumpter.

The states seceded in January 1861 - War was declared in April.

And I'm fairly certain I am in Glasgow - the weather a giveaway for a start.

132

subrosa,

12/12/2007 10:45:12

#135. Oh scathing! At least they are tweezing out the inadequacies of 8 years of labour incompetence.

133

Maisie from Morningside,

Morningside 12/12/2007 10:47:53

If the EU wants Kosovo then I don't think Scotland would have much trouble.

Having said that - there's an assumption that it's England that's the member and Scotland is just tagged on , can anyone prove this?

134

Allan (Glasgow),

12/12/2007 10:48:16

Long sigh.....

We are the largest oil producer in the EU, possess the largest renewable capacity in Europe and have the 5th largest financial centre. Yeah, the EU wouldnt want Scotland.

However, the point is worth debating about whether we really want full membership. Norway sits outside and whilst it has to comply with a fair number of regulations it seems to prosper quite happily.

135

Dr. James Wilkie,

12/12/2007 10:51:09

Of course the formalities of applying for membership of the EU would have to be gone through, and of course the EU would be falling over itself to ensure that these went through as swiftly and smoothly as possible, but that is not the same thing as an "automatic" entry. Scotland would still be in the position of a new applicant and would have to go through the routine.

it is a very good thing that the issue of EU membership by an independent Scotland will not be decided by the SNP, but by the Scottish electorate. The SNP is deplorably deficient in foreign policy expertise and above all strategic diplomatic know-how. It is running Scotland's head into a noose with its naive and dogmatic attitude towards the European Union.

Scotland in Europe does not have to mean full membership of the EU, which for a number of reasons would be highly undesirable and a disastrous strategic error in the immediate aftermath of independence. To take only one example, it would irresponsibly throw away the one and only chance of killing the EU Common Fisheries Policy.

There is much more to foreign policy than holding an opinion on Iraq and similar issues. We don't need a political party for that. The SNP is still a babe in arms in this field of diplomatic warfare; in the relevant jargon, they would be "pulled over the table" in any contest with experienced negotiators. What are they going to do about the EU's Lisbon treaty, which in practice strips member states of the last vestiges of sovereignty? Fundamental constitutional instruments like Magna Carta and the Declaration of Arbroath are unequivocally subordinated to EU legislation, as the EU Court of Justice has already made clear in the case of Portugal.

All the other, much larger, European organisations are harmless by comparison with the EU. In the political sense, EU membership for an independent Scotland is by no means "automatic", but must be decided in the ligh

136

pwd,

Borders 12/12/2007 10:51:52

7 Druidh

The pot calling the kettle black!

137

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 12/12/2007 10:56:05

Of course a new country will have to negociate. The number of MEP's is already set, but the country's monerary contribution to the EU WILL have to be negociated. The same goes for farm subsidies etc, etc, etc. As the SNP claims that Scotland is subsidising the rest of the UK, Scottish membership contributions to the EU would increase while England/Wales/NI's contribution would decrease.

The list of things that would have to be negociated at the same time is almost endless (eg. BBC licence fees yes/no?, fees for the use of government apperatus that would have to be used that lie outwith Scotland, pounds or euros etc, etc).

138

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

More dodgy donations for the ???? party 12/12/2007 10:59:17
139

Stuart MacWatt,

Isle of wight 12/12/2007 10:59:43

If Scotland is to be a member of the EU, better surely that she should be so as a sovereign state like Ireland, rather than as than a peripheral region like Cornwall. Better still, perhaps, she should join Norway and Iceland as an independant member of the European Economic Area (EEA). This would provide Scotland with most of the benefits of EU membership while enabling her to manage her own Agriculture and Fisheries policy.

141

Highland Mighty,

12/12/2007 11:04:18

Is there any chance of the SNP concentrating on running Scotland instead of constantly ranting on about independence?!

The vast majority of us don't want to be an insignificant little country, how many polls are needed to get that to sink into Salmond and co's little heads?!

And before one of you little SNP bairns asks me why I'm happy for Scotland to be "ruled by a foreign power" or an equally immature question, my country is the UK and so I see myself being ruled by my own.

142

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 12/12/2007 11:07:11

#149 Duck and cover!

143

Karin M,

12/12/2007 11:07:39
144

Karin M,

12/12/2007 11:08:10

149 just one. A referendum.

145

"Super" Mario Antoinette,

12/12/2007 11:08:43

Give this a REST.

Will it be automatic , will it not, will we ever be in a position where this is any more than sheer conjecture ?

This is not news.

146

Karin M,

12/12/2007 11:12:20

149 why are you not happy to have the issue settled once and for all by a referendum.

147

Karin M,

12/12/2007 11:13:09

non story move along folks the area has been cordoned off nothing to see.

148

Highland Mighty,

12/12/2007 11:14:18

152. Yawn. Yawn! YAWN!

Begone tedious, tiresome, pathetic, embarrassing, childish, pointless and ridiculous SNP drone!

149

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 12/12/2007 11:16:30

Karin M

I see you have dropped the 'Now's the Time' slogan. Are you toeing the Official Party Line with the new slogan:

'A Decade from now is the Time'

?

150

Wriggler, Editor,

12/12/2007 11:20:31

Well, if Scotland had to renegotiate entry to the EU, then clearly the remaining part of the UK would have to do the same thing (since they would have fewer voting rights, etc etc).

But, really, this is the latest in a long line of pseudo-stories from the Scotsman.

151

Highland Mighty,

12/12/2007 11:30:43

154. Because it will divide Scotland!!

Or are you naive and ignorant enough to believe a referendum on independence will not cause any rifts among friends, families and communities?

Maybe you actually believe your fellow SNP members that politics has never provoked conflict, anywhere, ever.

152

Karin M,

12/12/2007 11:34:54

157 i think you may be confusing me with someone else. I have never had a slogan. Now can i ask you a question why dont you want the feeling of security that independence would bring.

153

Karin M,

12/12/2007 11:35:52

159 so right now we are all united are we just like you and I right now. We are not arguing over the way forward for scotland

154

Karin M,

12/12/2007 11:37:24

159 is it not better to do something that will resolve conflict by reaching a decision one way or the other.

155

Karin M,

12/12/2007 11:38:22

is it not better to discuss everything that concerns us to communicate our concerns to see if we actually do need to be concerned rather than keep up a continual argument that never ends

156

Alex Salmond, C U Next Tuesday,

12/12/2007 11:41:57
157

The Busman,

Edinburgh 12/12/2007 11:44:10

What is the regional support for Scottish Independence?

As a non-EU national, I am left with the strong impression that there is little support for independence in the Edinburgh area; more in the West of Scotland; much more again outwith the Central Belt.

I would be grateful if someone could confirm (or otherwise) this view, because I think it would have a lot of impact in any independence referendum. There is no way Edinburgh would vote for independence if it meant being run by the west of Scotland.

158

thinking,

Scotland 12/12/2007 11:47:32

#149
I agree with you.
Also, I can't understand why the SNP want independence and entry into the EU. They are opposites.
Independence means self rule. Entry to the EU means being ruled by France, Germany etc!!!
I want neither.
I would prefer that the UK had trade agreements like Norway as the 'EEC' was originally intended

159

Karin M,

12/12/2007 11:47:52
160

"Super" Mario Antoinette,

12/12/2007 11:48:42

I'm past caring, As far as I can gather no-one on this thread actually understands EU entry so I would suggest waiting until it actually becomes a possibility to even begin to care about it.

161

Karin M,

12/12/2007 11:49:14

166 well the only way you are even going to have a chance now of not being in the EU according to unionists is indepndence

162

Bagsy,

Dubai 12/12/2007 11:49:21

Wull wi no be able ti eat our deep fried mars bars if wi becum part o this yoorup thing? a wis wunderin if the yoorupeans will stope aw that kind eh stuff cause they eat aw that garlic and sowerkrowt. help ma boab what wull ah dae wifoot ma deep fried mars bar! an anuther thing wull wae huv tae saw the land between engerlund and scotland if wae are tae becum indapendant? ma uncle boaby has goat his own digger wae a big bucket oan the front and the back - he could dig it and ah could watch oot fur the engerlander trying tae jump over the ditch and shout at thum that they needed tae show thur pasport if they want tae cum in tae yoorup! Ah jist dinnae ken whit tae dae aboot it - ah fink i'll just dae the votin for the green party cause thats what colour ma eyes are! good luck aw yoo intelijunt people sortin this oot ah wooldnae like tae be havin tae make the disishin aboot this one. cheerio now

163

Highland Mighty,

12/12/2007 11:50:17

161. EXACTLY!

Even an online discussion about a referendum has caused immense friction, so what will you think would happen in the months/years building up to a referendum?

What about after the result is out? Do you think the matter will just fade instantly away? No anger, bitterness or resentment from anyone?

Maybe you should consider the problems Northern Ireland have had with independence issues. Or is it your opinion that anything like that surely couldn't happen in Scotland.

The SNP are driving a bitter and vicious wedge between Scots and no good will ever come of it, and Scotland as a whole will continue to suffer while this rages on.

How many companies will consider Scotland as a potential investment location with such political friction and animosity present?

164

Karin M,

12/12/2007 11:50:44

165 the only way to find out for definete what the electorate thinks is a referendum. But the unionist parties are blocking this because the are scared of the answer.

165

Duns Scotus,

London, SE 12/12/2007 11:51:21

When Algeria ceased to be part of France on independence in 1962 it ceased to be part of the European Economic Community too.

Obviously you can't have two successor states and this woman is a fool for implying that you can or that Scotland will be the successor state.

The SNP can hardly expect to be taken seriously in Europe now. Maybe they should take lessons from a small country - the Croatian fascists might give them some pointers about how to claw your way into the EU.

166

"Super" Mario Antoinette,

12/12/2007 11:51:36

I suggest a United Kingdom of Scotland, Haiti , Iceland and Transnistrian Moldovan Republic for no better reason than the snappy acroynm.

167

Karin M,

12/12/2007 11:52:55

171 the problem in ireland can not be compared with scotland. Did you know that in the republic of ireland before independence people were not keen then the biriths government stepped in and killed those who staged the uprising in dublin.

168

Karin M,

12/12/2007 11:54:01

171 after that people were very much keen. look at nothern ireland now that they have their own parliament. the rev ian paisley and martin mcguiness work so well together.

169

sweet76,

Coventry 12/12/2007 11:54:06

Can anyone answer some questions?

How would Scotland be 'independent' within the EU?

Would an post independent Scotland be getting married on the rebound?

Why is it assumed that if you are anti EU then you are some sort of bigot? (i'm anti EU. I'm also anti corruption, pro democratic and a humanist)

If the Nats are so confident of the desire of all Scots for independence then why don't they have the vote next week? It's just a case of running up to the printers and then handing out the ballot papers isn't it?

How long will it be before someone calls me a Unionist bigot and an English thief/liar/racist/rapist/murder/(add other insult here)?

170

"Super" Mario Antoinette,

12/12/2007 11:54:13

Karin , Why would unionists who are

1) In Power and

2) obviously against independence

Want a referendum ?

Its not going to happen unless scotland votes pretty much en masse for the SNP

Which isnt going to happen, not in our lifetimes.

They have four years to make an arse of themselves. Human nature is fairly petty, unlikely they will be back in in 4 years time in sufficient numbers.

It's democracy.

171

Karin M,

12/12/2007 11:55:28

173 the westminster goverment agreed over 30 years ago that europe would be foolish to not let scotland in if she was independent do you disagree with westminster.

172

"Super" Mario Antoinette,

12/12/2007 11:56:07

177. The EU is more important to Mainland Europe as it was formed primarily to stop France , Germany kicking ten types of crap out of each other.

Being and island nation , i can see why its not so important to you.

173

Karin M,

12/12/2007 11:56:39

178 to settle the matter once and for all. I would have thought that if they are so sure that scotland does not want independence that they would jump at the chance to show the snp up. Yet they havent. Why is that.

174

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 12/12/2007 11:57:42

#157 Karin M

Personaly I am not bothered one way or the other about Scottish independence, as i have a feeling that at the end of the day, very little would change.

But to answer your question, no I would not have a feeling of secuity when all these issues were being negociated by people in suits outwith full public scrutiny. There are only so many public debates that you can have at one time, and the idea of the Scottish currency, membership of international organisations, border control, RAF search & rescue, DVLA etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, all having to be negociated at the same time does not fill me with a sense of security.

175

Karin M,

12/12/2007 11:58:39

177 no sorry sweet its not that simple the scottihs parliament has to agree to a referendum. If alex thought he would get it through parliament right now you can bet he would. he is waiting for the general election and the increase in the snp mps.

176

"Super" Mario Antoinette,

12/12/2007 11:59:15

you misunderstand Karin, WHY would unionists SANCTION a referendum ?

I could batter my cousin , probably. I dont have to actually batter my cousin to prove that point.

177

Karin M,

12/12/2007 11:59:51

182 would you then prefer a gradualist approach to independence.

178

Worried Scot,

12/12/2007 12:00:48

The SNP say there would be a gap of 4 years after a "yes" vote in a referendum before we become independent do they not?

Given that we're already part of a Member State, we could easily negotiate EU membership in 4 years as we'll already fulfill all the criteria for membership. This isn't an issue.

177 - This is the SNP dream, pull out from being a G8 nation to become an insignificant fringe European nation, why wouldn't we want to do that???

179

Karin M,

12/12/2007 12:02:36

184 the fact you say probably shows you have a degree of doubt as to wether you could as you put it "batter your cousin" why you would want to do this rather than ask them something i have no idea but it is not like actually having a referendum. Like settling the matter once and for all. Giving people the security of knowing exactly where they stand.

180

Karin M,

12/12/2007 12:03:22

To be honest i am quite glad they are not having the referendum at the moment as i think it would be close far better to wait till 2010.

181

Karin M,

12/12/2007 12:04:03

187 so are you happy to be in the eu then.

182

Karin M,

12/12/2007 12:05:59

190 well its kind of the same why bother with subjagation in britain when we have subjagation within the eu. instead of having two entities telling scoltand how it should be run we will have one. its not often that you get rid of a raft of politicians with one referendum

183

Ananurhing,

12/12/2007 12:14:47

It's irrelevant whether Scotland's EU membership would be automatic or not. The EU would be rolling out the red carpet for Scotland to join the fold. It would be desirable for the EU on many levels, not least of which would be access to our resources. Of course our membership would have to be renegotiated. Especially fisheries. The one that was traded away to preserve westminster's "red
lines"
Joe Borg, the FISHERIES commissioner, who confessed to opening his mouth without being informed on the matter, has just thrown back an undersized red herring. He knows it, Jackie (no credibility left) Baillie knows it, and so do we.
The article says that Borg stated " unequivocally".
No he didn't. He said it was his personal opinion, and that he was ignorant of the official, or legal position on the matter. Otherwords vested interest and fishy hot air.
Desperate attempts to make independence scary.
Like not being able to visit your granny in Bournemouth, and Lidl having to close down. Same old shock 'n' awe tactics, but increasingly feeble.

184

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 12/12/2007 12:16:54

Is the numbering difeerent on other peoples' computers - I am sure my commnet "duck and cover" was #149.

So why are am I being asked to justify Highland Mighty's comments?

185

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 12/12/2007 12:21:19

#176 Did you actually say Ian and Martin (aka the chuckle brothers) work well together. That's a laugh.

Politics in Northern is becoming more and more of a farce and the public by and large and getting restless about it - watch the DUP's vote next election - they wil be seriuosly hurt.

186

,

12/12/2007 12:21:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1224109, Article id was mapped to record!
187

Reckless,

Fife 12/12/2007 12:27:26

That's right, Scotland gains its independence from England (which is governed by Scots MPs), then goes and loses it again when it comes a member state of the EUSSR.

The SNP have buried their heads in the sand over this issue. The flaw is so obvious that even a child can see it. The SNP aren't interested in Scotland's best interests. They just want to do what ever they can to 'hurt' England, even if it means cutting their own noses off.

http://www.worldaffairsbrief.com/keytopics/EU.shtml

http://www.prisonplanet.com/neoconservatives_push_for_a_n...

188

,

12/12/2007 12:30:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1224176, Article id was mapped to record!
189

,

12/12/2007 12:30:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1224178, Article id was mapped to record!
190

Scotsman in Dublin,

12/12/2007 12:32:12

#1, AM2, your comments beggar belief sometimes, to think that less people support independence than support the SNP is moronic and to keep posting reference to one poll and ignoring all the others shows that you live in a shed with the lights turned out, if you would be bothered looking for them you would find polls showing 50% and more supporting Scottish independance. At the end of the day polls dont matter, a referendum is the only thing that will tell and our supposed democratic unionist parties wont allow us that privelage.

This argument on whether or not Scotland would automatically enter the EU is also a little bit pointless. Anyone who is too blind to see that everything that Scotland has to offer would give it the option of joining the EU or being just as succesful on its own is sitting beside AM2 in his little closed world.

191

,

12/12/2007 12:35:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1224219, Article id was mapped to record!
192

connaughtboy,

12/12/2007 12:38:44

We should stay out of the EU in any case. Norway does well enough without membership and all the hassle it brings with it.

193

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 12:40:47

Hello All,

So let me get this straight: you Scots are currently doing your best to free yourselves from the Yoke of London, but are all too ready to take on the Yoke of the EU?

I see, you wish to replace one Taskmaster for another.

Slaves now and slaves you continue to desire to be.

How very interesting: in the near future, you wish to subordinate your newly won sovereignty to the bureaucrats of the EU: the very Organ which has debilitated the Scottish Fishing Fleets, caused tens of THOUSANDS of families to lose their livelihoods, put further THOUSANDS of families out of work in supporting industries, and all to SOON, you wish to SUPPORT the very organization, which has caused all this horror to be FORCED upon Scots.

Remind me again as to just what happened to Scottish Intelligence?

Cheers from the Rockies

194

Highland Mighty,

12/12/2007 12:40:52

190. You really are reaching there. We are hindered by our geographical location of being to the north of major trading routes.

Shipped freight enters the island of GB in Folkestone and Southampton as they are on the US-Rotterdam/Europort shipping route.

Air traffic will always favour London's airports as that is the major business centre for this part of Europe. We can shout and scream about the strengths of Edinburgh and Glasgow but London's supremacy as the prinicpal trading centre in the British Isles is an inescapable fact.

And Salmond doesn't want a referendum until 2017 as he knows our economy needs to match the growth rate of the rest of the UK if we want to maintain current taxes and services post-independence.

When the nations of the world are moving towards regional politcial/economic/military/social blocs such as the EU, NAFTA/NAU, AU, Arab League etc. it makes no sense for us to break from a leading world economy and go it alone. No sense at all!

Currently Scots are part of (and running!) one of the top political/economic/military/cultural/diplomatic nations in the world - Why would we want to break away from that and become one of the world's 200 small, insignificant and uninfluential nations?

The SNP would have us all believe that their goal of independence would cure all our social and economic 'ills'...I (along with many others) see it as causing far more problems than it would solve.

And 203..."Subjugation to a colonial power"?? GROW UP!

195

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 12:46:31

Hello All Again,

How about that idea in post 204? Staying out of the EU has worked well for Norway and Switzerland, and if Scotland joined in an economic confederation (NOT political) with Norway, the two countries could be a strong counterbalance to the vagaries of the EU bureaucrats and their vindictive policies toward both countries.

Wake up and smell the paperwork people!!!

The EU will control you like a bunch of poodles at the end of a lace leash: with titanium strands tying it all together.

"Live Free or Die" is the motto of the US State New Hampshire: I strongly suggest that you Scots consider the wisdom and validity of that motto.

Cheers from the Rockies

196

Shave,

Edinburgh 12/12/2007 12:47:41

#203 Ayrshire Scot

So, 'centuries of subjugation' must be halted but decades of subjugation in the EU is alright?

It seems like an indefensible position.

197

connaughtboy,

12/12/2007 12:48:03

#202 AM2

Also from the 19th August poll:

74% favour a referendum on independence.

Other parts you failed to highlight from the same poll:

"YouGov did however ask what would make people who didn’t favour independence change their mind, 13% of people said they might support independence if Alex Salmond did well as First Minister, 12% said they might favour it were the Conservatives to return to power"

That would take your 23% up to between 36 - 48% in favour.

AM2, I have warned you about this so many times before, be careful what you quote because the devil is always in the detail.

198

Alex Salmond, C U Next Tuesday,

12/12/2007 12:49:45

Entry to the EU would be automatic because Sturgeon says so? I think not. Plus she's ugly.

I've yet to meet a nationalist who wanted independence for sensible reasons and not merely through ignorant, narrow-minded patriotism and who didn't consider themselves more Scottish than I am because they support the SNP. Im Scottish. And British. Proud of both, and doing quite well thank you very much. Until I can be convinced otherwise, why change this?

The SNP: we'll mortgage your childrens futures, but hey, at least we'll be independent. Grand work!

199

Shave,

Edinburgh 12/12/2007 12:53:25

#209 connaughtboy
"13% of people said they MIGHT support independence if Alex Salmond did well as First Minister, 12% said they MIGHT favour it were the Conservatives to return to power"
And yet you assert that they "WOULD"? Well, you're ambitious!

200

Karin M,

12/12/2007 12:56:26

210 what does being british mean?
Is that where you live or is it a part of who you are? If its a part of who you are would you not still be british even after independence because like ireland you are likely to have dual nationality. Also the area is called britain ie like the continent of europe this island is called the british isles that is not going to change its a geogrpahic location. So you would still be scottish and living in britain is that your only argument agaisnt indpendence.

201

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 12:56:51

Hello Highland Mighty,

Your 206 is forgetting one key factor:

The realization of the ever sought after, but never found (until the near future), Northwest Passage.

Everyone is screaming about the negative effects of Global Warming (and the human impact and supposed foundational causation for it, which has just recently been DEBUNKED by THREE major US universities), but almost no one is talking about the POSITIVE effects of GW!

The real and available Northwest Passage is just such a real world FACT which will come into play politically, financially, and geographically, in the very near future!

Scotland is in the MOST opportune place to make a LOT of money one the NWP is opened to sea traffic!

Further, you state that an independent Scotland would become 'only one of 200 small nations' virtually devoid of power.

May I remind you of a few facts: Standard Oil has proven that payable wells as deep as 28,000 feet can be economically and environmentally drilled and operated.

Secondly, oil deposit exploration hasn't even been touched in real world technological terms, in the North Sea!!!!! There is, statistically speaking, BILLIONS of BARRELS of oil within reach of Scotland.

Looking at the glass as half full, rather than half empty, would be a much more constructive place to start, rather than doing the opposite.

The Enviro-Whackos make a lot of noise, tell a lot of lies, and create a lot of hoopla, but the FACTS refute their idiocy.

I suggest that the 2017 timetable be brought up to 2010-2012 and that Scotland realize that neither London nor Brussels are places to kowtow for ANY Scot.

Cheers from the Rockies

202

Karin M,

12/12/2007 12:57:33

214 same quesiton to you are you then UKish what does that mean?

203

loose cannon,

Bellshill,Scottieland 12/12/2007 12:59:29

Like most I don't know enough about the EU to say aye or no but I do know I am totally opposed to being represented by twice ejected from Cabinet slimeball Mandelson and Tony's crony jumped up Lords.

204

The Green Goblin,

12/12/2007 13:00:04

209. connaughtboy

So, support for independence was closer to 50% when the Tories were last in power, was it? Funny that, I thought that support for the SNP hovered around 14% then and that Scots increasingly turned to Labour. As for the extra 12 % if Salmond does well as FM, why hasn’t this been added to the figure already, given his (admittedly inexplicable in light of all his broken promises) current popularity amongst the electorate?

205

Karin M,

12/12/2007 13:01:04

219 did you know that the EU wants to give temp workers the same rights as permanent and this is being blocked by gordon brown.

206

Karin M,

12/12/2007 13:03:35

212 so the unionist coalition is blocking the will of the scottish people for a referendum on this issue. 3 quarters want a referendum but wendy et al refuse.

207

Alan B,

12/12/2007 13:03:38

I find it weird that unionist cannot get there head round the idea of why people would support EU membership and not support the uk. Firstly most countries are independent nations within the EU and do not find they have to have some union with its neighbours before joining the EU.

The way i see i would like the scottish parliament to assume much more powers starting with fiscal autonomy, but also over issues like energy and its regulation, transport, economy, law and order (id card, detention times (90, 40days etc), firearms) together with powers to run the SP (civil service, naming itself and running its elections.)

I support the EU with the main pillars being the single market for the economy and aid to it poorer components, common environmental standards, the freedom of movement of people to live and work throughout the EU, and would also like it to develop foreign policy to use it huge economic and polical power to resolve some of the worlds bigger problems. Wether that is looking east to help democracy and prosperity in the old eastern bloc, to the balkans, to its neighbours in north africa and the middle east. I would support common (not single) eu defence forces to help resolve conflicts.

As such it would move Scotlands position with the Uk to one were Westminster is responsible for defence, foreign policy, eu membership and currency.

I would like to see scotland joining the euro because i believe it is more appropriate for the scottish economy. Sterling have traditional imposed higher interest rates that is good for the scottish economy.


i want scotland to my country with sovereignty with her people, not westminster overuling us because of the sizes of the component countries. While i could support scottish membership of the uk. As such the UK would have to be like the EU and be conferderal.

As such scotland could be a member of the EU and of the UK. Scotland better representing her interests than the UK.

208

,

12/12/2007 13:04:12
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1224409, Article id was mapped to record!
209

Alex Salmond, C U Next Tuesday,

12/12/2007 13:05:27

The reason I don't support independence? No-one has tried to convince me that I should.

Alex Salmond ran his election campaign trying to convince people there was more to the SNP than independence. Fine. It worked, good strategy.

But since then I've heard no reason why I should support independence apart from, similar to articles like this "it'd be better because we say so".

If I could be convinced that independence would be better for both myself and the country at large then I would support it, but unless that is the case, why bother?

Prove to me that independence would improve things and I'll join the SNP tomorrow (or maybe Monday, the office might be shut on a Saturday), until then, in the words of Mr Duncan Bannatyne "ahm out".

210

Karin M,

12/12/2007 13:05:30

222 the united kingdom is not a country its a political construct. Also the correct term is the united kingdom of great britain and northern ireland.

211

Karin M,

12/12/2007 13:06:13

northern ireland is not part of britain.

212

Highland Mighty,

12/12/2007 13:06:47

216. Is the North West Passage on the main global shipping route that is Panama-USA-Folkestone-Rotterdam-Suez-...? The main shipping hubs are in NY for the US and Rotterdam for Europe!

What exactly do you think will open up here if that sea route gets used? Another Europort to supply whom? Or, at the very best, a small container port to supply Scotland?

This is a non-matter!

And don't start ranting on about the ****** oil again! EVERYONE (governments, oil suppliers, oil markets, reserach agencies etc) expects the NS oil supply to rapidly start dwindling away. Oil is nearly over and there is not going to be a miracle find that will sustain an independent Scotland for generations.

Accept that!

213

Karin M,

12/12/2007 13:07:12

226 i dont want to convince you that you should only you can make that decision. its nothing to do with me.

214

connaughtboy,

12/12/2007 13:07:25

#212 AM2 - This is your "avoid the issue" strategy which you deploy when you have been found out. Your post #202 is misleading. Please be big enough to accept my points.

215

Karin M,

12/12/2007 13:08:14

229 why will it be devisive. is that because they wont ask about indpendence because they are too scared fo the answer they will get.

216

Karin M,

12/12/2007 13:10:04

229 how is not asking about independence settling the issue. I want to know once and for all do we want independece or not. If we dont fine. I just want everyone to be asked.

217

connaughtboy,

12/12/2007 13:11:26

#229 AM2

"The campaigning will be brutally divisive to society, but this issue needs laid to rest."

Such a drama queen!

218

Ex-pat observer,

12/12/2007 13:12:27

The bottom line is that nobody knows what will happen and that has to be the only honest answer for any politician of any party asked about this issue. There is no such thing as the "EU", it is a body made up of individual countries - if EU member states want Scotland in, then Scotland will be in. If they do not, then it will not happen. As I understand it, the entry of new member has to be agreed unanimously. Under French law, the French have a referendum as to whether a new country should join.

But let's knock a couple of things on the head straight away:

1. Norway does not have the best of both worlds. orway has to implement all European legislation into its own laws as a condition of trading freely with the EU. It sets its own policies to the extent that the EU allows it. If the EU did not like Norway's fishing policy, then Norway would have to change it.

2. Scotland will need the EU far more than the EU will need Scotland. We are a country of 6 million, an insignificant market. The EU gives access to a market of 500 million. Like Norway, we will be in no position to dictate terms to the EU, we will have to take what is ofered. Once a member, an independent Scotland will have as much clout as Ireland - ie, very little or none at all.

People fantasising about oil giving us leverage are living in a fantasy world. Scotland may own the oil fields, it does not own the oil itself - companies do and they are free to trade with who they like.

219

connaughtboy,

12/12/2007 13:14:47

#213 Shave

Just presenting the "for" case in the same way that AM2 presented the "against" case. Mine was more honest in the presentation of the actual results though. The rest is my analysis of the results which I also happen to believe. I suspect that support for independence is currently sitting somewhere between 45 and 50% and is moving up. IMO.

220

Alan B,

12/12/2007 13:15:31

#226 Rather than anyone convincing u about independence, why not look at the relative economic performances of scotland compared to the other small european nations over the last 30yrs and see how well we have done in comparison. If u look at the richest nations in the world u will see the small european ones are some of the richest and have been outperforming their larger neighbours.

A simple google gave me - http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:S09GMavIRagJ:www3.im...


While there are never any guarantees in all probabliltiy we would have had a richer economy now if we had made the jump to independence.

221

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 12/12/2007 13:15:44

#205 wrote:
>>So let me get this straight: you Scots are currently doing your best to free yourselves from the Yoke of London, but are all too ready to take on the Yoke of the EU?

I see, you wish to replace one Taskmaster for another.

Slaves now and slaves you continue to desire to be.

How very interesting: in the near future, you wish to subordinate your newly won sovereignty to the bureaucrats of the EU: the very Organ which has debilitated the Scottish Fishing Fleets, caused tens of THOUSANDS of families to lose their livelihoods, put further THOUSANDS of families out of work in supporting industries, and all to SOON, you wish to SUPPORT the very organization, which has caused all this horror to be FORCED upon Scots.

Remind me again as to just what happened to Scottish Intelligence?

Cheers from the Rockies<<

Can't fault your logic there.

#204 wrote:
"We should stay out of the EU in any case. Norway does well enough without membership and all the hassle it brings with it."

Agreed.

As the UK gets pulled further into the EU without any choice, the argument for Scottish independence is strengthened. Scotland, as independent, can make its own decisions as regards how far to integrate into the EU.

222

connaughtboy,

12/12/2007 13:17:36

#242 AM2

Still unwilling to debate the real issue I notice. Your tactics are so transparent.

223

Former opponent,

12/12/2007 13:17:43

#225 - Ayrshire Scot

I have posted on this, I do not believe it is cut and dried in the way that NS suggests and I am a lawyer (in fact, I do international disputes, including treaty related work).

224

,

12/12/2007 13:19:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1224522, Article id was mapped to record!
225

Karin M,

12/12/2007 13:22:51

240 so everything but independece then. seeingas how the other parties are running away from asking the question because they are scared of the answer

226

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 13:24:01

249 Former - 225 is fakey (. after name)...

227

Karin M,

12/12/2007 13:24:19

250 Am2 did it mention anything about this in the recent survey that showed the snp 11 points ahead?

228

tartan army 2222,

12/12/2007 13:25:28

AM2 (or should I say Arthur)

I've always tried to argue my point against you in the past but I've come to the conclusion that it really just isn't worth it. It's like banging one's head off a brick wall. You are so wrapped up in retaining the union that the important political decisions pass you by. You rip into the SNP on issues that you wouldn't turn your head to if implemented by another party. When they implement something that you actually agree with you simply spin it to rip into them on a related/unrelated issue. It starts to get boring ... very, very boring. If you were objective people wouldn't mind so much (I, for example, have no problem with unionists espousing their beliefs) but with you it's just an endless stream of anti-SNP bile and all objectivity goes out the window because you see the union crumbling before your eyes. Anyway, I await your link to prove what a dumpling I am, whilst you, of course, will bask in being correct once again.

229

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 13:25:31

253 AM2 it was your spurious accusation "brutal division" I was commenting on. It is clearly tinged with fanatacism. I suggest you withdraw it or correct it to a less hysterical expression of your view point

230

Shave,

Edinburgh 12/12/2007 13:26:28

#243 connaughtboy

First you assert that it "WOULD", now you "SUSPECT that support for independence is currently sitting somewhere between 45 and 50%".

I'll wait and see, and not speculate wildly.

231

Can't see the wood for the trees,

Edinburgh 12/12/2007 13:26:59

There are some very insteresting constitutional questions here - EU membership aside. For Scotland to legally leave the UK, the 1707 Treaty of Union would have to be repealed. This would dissolve the United Kingdom of Great Britain, and, as some constitutional historians might argue, may necessitate a renegotiated treaty between England & Wales and Northern Ireland. Both the 1801 and 1921 Irish treaties have the UK as a couterparty, and to the best of my knowlege there are no provisions in the 1707 Treaty of Union to cover which country should inherit the various treaties or agreements signed the the British state. As such Scottish secession would not necessarily result in a new state and a rump United Kindom, there is an equally convincing argument that secession would in fact result in two 'new' successor states. Certainly, if ongoing membership of the EU is not guaranteed to the secessionist part of the UK, I see no reason why it should be guaranteed to the remaining part. Incidentally, the EU Commission felt obliged to point out that the views of Dr Borg on this matter were his own and not the official view of the EC. Only one thing is certain - the lawyers will have a field day.

232

Karin M,

12/12/2007 13:27:46

258 i beleive its higher.

233

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 13:27:49

253 Why are these, self selecting, forums a "micro-cosm" but the anti-Scottish bile on display daily at the Mail and Telegraph you dismiss as non-representative?

234

David MacVicar,

web 12/12/2007 13:27:51

5. Ayrshire Scot™

Inded the Scotsman falls down badly again by presenting Labours view that the Fisheries commissioner is a constitutional expert where he clearly prefixed and put his comments as non exper personal opinion.

Why did the Scotman not mention this? Is this anpother daily axample of what the Scotsman considers as non bias.

It should be clear also that the Fisheries commisioner has a clear and major conflict of interest in his professional role in that the UK represents Scotlands fishing interests which nobody denies was sold out to the EU for concessions elsewhere.

Given that his conflict of interest is clear he should not have made any comment in the first place.

Labours use of him as the cornerstone of their argument shows how weak their case is and how incompetent they continue to be.

SNP not backing up their claims without credible expert witnesses is also unprofessional imo. Such a contentious announcement should have this in place already.

235

 Meths,

12/12/2007 13:29:21

Fisheries Commissioner speaks off the record.

A spokesman for the EU said: "We do not comment on hypothetical situations."

...but the fisheries commissioner did, so no story here.

It's ALL hypothetical.

236

Karin M,

12/12/2007 13:29:25

261 how was my question insulting all i asked was if there was anything in the recent poll that showed the snp 11 points ahead in the polls this was a poll last month

237

Former opponent,

12/12/2007 13:35:08

#254 - Ayrshire Scot - fair enough. I wasn't having a pop at you - 225 raised a reasonable question at the end.

I think the independence debate can go on (may even be improved) on the basis that EU membership will be a political question or issue, not cut and dried (and virtually no PIL question ever is cut and dried). If it is not cut and dried then a post-independence Scotland would have more options open to it. If it is cut and dried that Scotland would be a member, then by the same token a post-independence Scotland might have no choice but to be a member, at least on day one, unless it subsequently sought to leave the EU.

238

tartan army 2222,

12/12/2007 13:35:16

AM2

What part was insulting?

Your lack of objectivity?
Your constantly spouting anti-SNP bile?
Your belief that you're always correct?
Calling you by your true name?

Does the truth hurt son? Well if you can't do the time and all that! To be honest, if that's all it takes to get rid of you then I might stay up till the papers are put online and repeat that post every morning.

239

Tepid Mouse,

oN sAtUrN's RiNg 12/12/2007 13:36:06

Does this affect the Christmas Islands? Retention in comparison? Likely?

240

,

12/12/2007 13:39:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
241

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 13:40:09

Hello again Highland,

RE your 216:

Firstly, have you heard of the PRC (People's Republic of China)?

They seem to be doing a gang buster biz with both North America and Europe.

Currently, their goods have to go the LONG way round, to get to Europe. The NWP would ALLEVIATE all of that nonsense, and allow for greater profits and lower costs to be made by all involved, by using the NWP.

Same thing for Russian goods and goods going to Russia.

Then of course, we have all the oil fields which are yet to be tapped UNDER the current ICE FIELDS of the Arctic. Oil, gold, and diamonds, are the goals for all the Arctic Countries, and unless Scotland gets in on that rush, it will lose out on the direct profits, but indirectly, it can still earn economic benefits (read jobs).

Pertaining to the whole Oil in the North Sea business: you can use all the asterisks you wish, but your finger punching that key will NOT change the FACT, that ALL the extent reports about the NSOF are WORTHLESS because they are based on OLD TECH.

We are using New Tech which delivers heretofore untold potential AND real world yields, that provide us NOW and will provide us, with vast quantities of oil (until we can pull our heads out of our you know wheres, and put alternative fuel tech to real world mass scale use, thereby telling the Islamic Oil Magnates what they can go do with all their oil).

I know this for a fact, because I literally live in the middle of an oil patch: the company uses CO2 to pump out the oil which the old wells could get out of the ground.

10% to 25% of oil in most wells cannot be extracted with conventional well tech. CO2 pumping is the feline's meow in getting more oil out of the ground:

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2005/12/69711

It also can help the environment:

Report Unsuitable

242

,

12/12/2007 13:41:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1224646, Article id was mapped to record!
243

Highland Mighty,

12/12/2007 13:44:20

269. An SNP drone whinging about someone's lack of objectivity, argumentative bile and belief that they are always correct???

This is precisely what SNP drones do ALL THE TIME!

244

,

12/12/2007 13:44:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
245

Ananurhing,

12/12/2007 13:46:21

244# Alan B

What a surprise! Norway second highest GDP in the world. Just shows you what can be done with proper management of resources. From outnegotiating oil companies in the early days, re revenues and working conditions, to the creation of a Sovereign Wealth Fund that's out there playing with the big boys. Competing with Hedge funds globally, and reaping enormous profits.
What does westminster do? Spends as it gets on illegal wars and bailing out failed banks. Ach well, there's always the union dividend I suppose, and do you really think we could look after ourselves?
Irrelevant! Fact is we don't.

246

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 13:48:25

268 Former Op

indeed. A pots-independence Scotland, like Greenland which wanted to exit the EU, would, if it chose to leave the EU, negotiate its way out.

Why does the Unionist position on continuation of treaty obligations reverse precedent and reverse itself on this. Unionists have argued that the SNP policy of leaving NATO is weakened by automatic treaty continuation, meaning no immediate exit from NATO, but then do a cartwheel as say the opposite is true for the EU. Please explain?

247

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 13:49:19

274 Thanks for that objective and bile free, incisive intellectual contribution. You have differentiated yourself from your target admirably.

248

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 13:53:00

264 David. Indeed, Mr Borg issued a clarification the next day, saying his comments (non-expert and outwith his area of competence to assess, in his own words) had been taken out of context anyway.... this was not covered in the Scotsman.

Why Mr Borg's views, as Fishing Commissioner, are given more weight than the opinion of the two previous heads of the Commission Legal Service, 2 Directors General of the EU, A UK Foreign Secretary and experts in constitutional law is perplexing.

His views were actually totallly self-contradictory, as he went on to say Scotland would have to accept current common fisheries policy - this just after he said we would not be in the EU???

249

,

12/12/2007 13:55:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
250

Former opponent,

12/12/2007 13:57:32

#273 - presumably the fake "Ayrshire Scot." in view of the "."

I have no interest in coming out to play with a troll like you. You can't begin to afford me.

251

,

12/12/2007 13:58:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1224735, Article id was mapped to record!
252

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

12/12/2007 13:58:54

This old ground.

Any negotiations for independence will undoubtedly include negotiation with regards terms of entry to the EU. Therefore if Scotland were to become independent it would happen on the same day the country acceded to the EU.

What can be challnged is the notion that some Nats have (like the Eurosceptic Tories) that they will somehow manage to change the terms of entry and obtain opt-outs. Personally, I think they are living in cloud-cuckoo land if they think that they are going to get any leverage with the existing EU members.

If an independent Scotland joined the EU it would be on a take it or leave it basis.

253

Highland Mighty,

12/12/2007 14:01:48

272. Russian goods come into Europe by land, I think. Why would they need to go on a ship via the Arctic?

And you think Chinese shipping will bypass N America? How will they get goods to them in that case? Trade shipping is NOT point-to-point, as you seem to believe, as that is uneconomical unless full return loads are guaranteed, which they usually aren't. The preferred method are fixed round-the-world routes stopping off at various regional hubs such as Singapore, LA, NY, Rotterdam etc. with smaller ships then taking the good to more local ports.

And again, why would ships need to stop off in Scotland except to deliver to our domestic market? A modern large container ship is far more economical per individual load than road and rail, so they will unload as near as possible to the main markets....which in the UK is the SE with it's road/rail transport infrastructure to then deliver inland.

Any port that is developed because of the NWP is not going to make any significant contribution to our economy!

254

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 14:02:12

281 Former - yes, the fake. Same enlightened chap who is "Alex SAlmond" at 282. A credit to unionist argument and debating skills.

255

,

12/12/2007 14:03:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
256

Highland Mighty,

12/12/2007 14:03:56

280. Thank you for proving my point.

257

,

12/12/2007 14:11:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
258

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 14:14:07

159 A unionist refers to "division and conflict". Not like unionists to cause such, say in Iraq or other places....

259

Walter Ego,

Durness 12/12/2007 14:19:29

Is there a Council Tax freeze in the EU?

260

Sane,

Scotland 12/12/2007 14:25:03

I am sorry i did not bother reading past post number 25, during that time a few people mentioned that the EU would not want to lose 80% of its oil or the major Oil producing country in western europe.

Letting Scotland in or not they would still be buying the oil as the Oil Companies Own it!!!! The UK just taxes its sale

SNP still adamant that it would be Scotlands Oil Everyone else is saying no it would'nt be.

It is all Hypothetical anyway!

Time they all got on with running the country!

I also noticed that the SNP are starting to play around with the idea of centralisation of specialist care within the NHS.

They should leave it alone these essential services are leading their field where they are at the moment. They do not need to be sent to Glasgow to improve as they are currently the best anyway!

261

Highland Mighty,

12/12/2007 14:25:25

It is all but transparent now that the SNP's goal is purely a romantic and sentimental matter.

Someone posted a chart comparing Scottish GDP with the rest of the world's other small nations. Fine, but when we have the same economic policies and taxes here as in England, also ask why our per capita is so much lower than theirs? $45,000 and $34,000 according to various net sources.

And DO NOT BLEAT they're stealing our oil as, even if that is included, it is still a drop in England's trillion pound GDP.

I am very happy being part of a rich, powerful and influential UK. Our total economy is strong and stable (can the SNP guarantee this will be the same come independence?) and our collective voice in the EU and the world is a loud shout, not an insignificant whisper which is what the SNP want.
Who in the world cares when Ireland speaks, or New Zealand, or Singapore, or Portugal?

I am not one of the SNP's Little Scotlanders, I want to be part of something important and influential and not some little speck.

Cue: "But we'll be independent though!"

Begone, mindless SNP drones.

262

Ayr-Swipe Scut™,

12/12/2007 14:28:34

The SNP do like Unions - they just hate the English.

They are a mixed up bunch. Hopelessy contradicting themselves every tother day.

263

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 14:29:08

291 AM2 - you must learn to tone down your fanatical zeal enough not to accuse posters of lying - it a constant and depressing refrain which does nothing for an exchange of views. When you talk of "divisive" debate I wonder if perhaps a look in the mirror and some honest introspection might not be in order for you.

Are you saying that Mr Borg, by personal acumen or by dint of his commission appointment, is an expert in the area he was commenting on?

264

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 14:30:13

293 Paragraph 2 would suggest that the union is not delivering for Scotland's economic potential?

265

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 14:34:02

291 A clarification did indeed appear on page 2 of the Mail, and was also quoted by Miss H. If I recall you said it was too rainy for you to acquire that paper, and prefer simply to accuse me of dishonesty. For shame, AM2.

266

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 14:34:12

300

267

,

12/12/2007 14:35:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1224922, Article id was mapped to record!
268

tartan army 2222,

12/12/2007 14:36:15

295

Ask yourself which is the most inclusive of the Scottish parties. I think you'll find (by a large distance) it is the SNP. We have at least one English MSP (possibly more) and a Muslim MSP. On a local level the party is filled with English folks and people of a wide range of backgrounds - all of whom are warmly welcomed. The accusation that the party is one filled with racists is a lie put about by the unionist parties, the unionist press and people like yourself who scoop up all they throw out and believe it without question.

269

Duncx,

12/12/2007 14:37:24

I would vote for independence, not for swapping one form of imperialism for another.

Its time we had a new Declaration of Arbroath.

270

Alex Salmond, C U Next Tuesday,

12/12/2007 14:37:43
271

tartan army 2222,

12/12/2007 14:39:06

#298

Arthur, I thought you were away?

272

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 14:39:10

Hello again Highland,

Firstly, you misunderstood the Russian point: Chinese and Russian Goods being exchanged, Russian and American goods being exchanged; all without the LONG and dangerous Trans-Siberian RR usage.

Last time I checked, the PRC does NOT drop ship containers bound for Europe, into the USA, thereby incurring TAXES, which add to the COST of the items and LESSENS PROFITS!

The PRC would use the NWP to take the short route to Europe with all their goods, and thereby avoid the dangerous Southern Cape Route.

Ships break down just like anything else, crew get sick, and England and Wales could get items needed via rail from Scotland, after the PRC Container Ships dropped their loads in Scotland; rail is faster than shipping for short runs and much more economical.

I must also point out that you made a WIDE SIDESTEP in avoiding answering any of my points about modern technology and Oil Exploration.

Now why is that?

I even provided you with citations for your perusal-to make it easier to understand that the North Sea Oil Fields are NOT done, are NOT empty, and are STILL a strong source of WEALTH for Scotland.

All you Scots have to do is to stop listening to the Enviro-Whackos and other Nay-Sayers, and invoke some of that historical Scottish Innovation, for which Scots are world famous.

Step back from your preconceived biases and look at the evidence from a fresh perspective: you'll like what you find.

Cheers from the Rockies

273

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 14:39:22

303 AM2

Are you saying that Mr Borg, by personal acumen or by dint of his commission appointment, is an expert in the area he was commenting on?

274

Highland Mighty,

12/12/2007 14:39:49

297. Putting SNP spin aside for once....ask if it is more likely that despite having the proven successful economic policies in place, we are failing to produce because of our own failings and nothing more.

You hear the English bleating on about low education standards, crime, foreign ownership of companies etc. but they DO NOT blame anyone but themselves. You get some idiots blaming the EU for anything and everything (just like you SNP lot blaming the UK for anything and everything) but the majority know it's their own fault.

We need to look at ourselves too. For starters, we have low productivity which is our biggest failing but we also have far too many welfare scroungers. We need to get off our collective backsides and earn success instead of doing nothing but blame the 'union' for "holding us back".

275

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 14:40:48

303 AM2

"Mr Borg said: "On the issue concerning Scotland's independence, that's not my competence to assess or to evaluate but if...."

276

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 14:41:39

303

Mr Robin Cook, as Foreign Secretary "'It's in the nature of the European Union, it welcomes all comers and Scotland would be a member'."

277

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 14:43:38

303 "Mr Borg also expressed severe doubts about Scotland's ability to withdraw from the common fisheries policy - an approach that used to be advocated by the SNP. He said it was "not legally possible".

AM2, please explain how does this square with his position that Scotsland would be outside the EU?

278

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 14:49:18

315 Not good enough AM2. Mr Borg said Scotlsand would have to apply (therefore be outside the EU) then said we would be inside the Common Fisheries Policy. Please explain how we would have to adhere to fisheries policy while outside the EU?

On the Vienna Treaty, you gave the impression that the Uk had opposed it. In fact the Uk was one of many countries that voted to adopt and approve it, but has not formailly ratified it.

279

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 14:50:39

317 AM2

remarkable, when Mr Borg said.....

"In an interview with The Scotsman, Mr Borg said: "On the issue concerning Scotland's independence, that's not my competence to assess or to evaluate but if"

280

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 14:52:14

319 Cheery Bye

281

tartan army 2222,

12/12/2007 14:52:21

#319 AM2

He says 'bye' but our Arthur doesn't mean it. He'll be back - and sooner rather than later I suspect!

282

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 14:56:54

323 Lets hope he ups the standard of his game before he returns. The usual pathetic mish-mash of contradictory, free-wheeling, Kafka-esque, distortion from unionists like AM2 does the debate on our countries future a grave disservice.

283

Banffshire Scot,

Portknockie 12/12/2007 15:00:41

Mouthwatering as the prospect of an independent Scotland is, who would want it to be shackled to the EU? An analogy to that would be to spend 6 months tunnelling your way out of D block in Barlinnie Prison, only to find you'd emerged in E block

284

Tepid Mouse,

oN sAtUrN's RiNg 12/12/2007 15:00:42

But does this affect the Christmas Islands?

Retention in comparison? Likely?

285

tartan army 2222,

12/12/2007 15:05:16

324

I agree. I like an argument, but AM2 just makes me want to give it all up. Maybe he's hoping to bore us nationalists into submission. If that's his ploy then he's doing a good job. Just after 3pm. I reckon we'll see him before Mrs Midwinter serves up his fish and chips at 5pm.

286

World View,

12/12/2007 15:05:31

#325

Ha ha. Just goes to show, does it?

None of us give a damn about the UK or Britain or what ever you want to call it. We don't even know what it is. How can it even been a country if nobody knows what it is?

What a farce.

287

David MacVicar,

web 12/12/2007 15:06:06

291 AM2

Your contradiction, that it is not a contradiction is also a contradcition ;)

you said:
"That’s not true. He said only that Scotland “would have to apply for membership”, not that we wouldn’t be in the EU."

Not that we wouldnt be in the EU means we are in the EU.

Tell me, why would scotland need to apply for membership and 'not that we wouldn’t be in the EU'.?
CONtradiction QED.

My oh my, how the wheels within wheels logic of unionist arguments based on half truths, supposition, comments out of context by people not qualified to make them that are intentenionally or non intentainally legal or illegal seem to trip them up on an increasingly frequent basis.

288

David MacVicar,

web 12/12/2007 15:07:43

P.S. I obviosly cannot type intentionally correctly :)

289

Alex Salmond, C U Next Tuesday,

12/12/2007 15:11:49
290

Chris.J,

12/12/2007 15:11:58

#314 ... AM2 even with your (grudgingly impressive) use of statistics to prop up an arguement surely you have to admit that the Scandic countries enjoy a high, if not superior, quality of life in return for those extra taxes....

291

 Meths,

12/12/2007 15:12:43

274. Highland Mighty / 1:44pm 12 Dec 2007

269. "An SNP drone whinging about someone's lack of objectivity, argumentative bile and belief that they are always correct???

This is precisely what SNP drones do ALL THE TIME!"

...but this is your first visit. How would you know?

(unless it's just a new moniker as you know you'd get the p¡ss ripped out of you for your crap posts if you used your other moniker).

He he he "newbie"

292

The Master,

12/12/2007 15:12:55

304. tartan army 2222 / 2:36pm 12 Dec 2007
295
Ask yourself which is the most inclusive of the Scottish parties…The accusation that the party is one filled with racists is a lie put about by the unionist parties, the unionist press and people like yourself who scoop up all they throw out and believe it without question.

It’s the grass routes supporters that many of us find disturbing. Take any thread on this very site and it won’t take you long to find the bigoted anti English attitudes which the leadership seek to gloss over. I won’t name specific posters, but you know who you are. However, perhaps I am being unfair, given that such sentiments are an almost historical corollary of nationalism. I know that the SNP’s brand has been praised for its inclusivity, and it is commendable that the party has nothing like the negative image of Sinn Fein, but negativity and bile are necessarily at the root of any kind of nationalism.

293

tartan army 2222,

12/12/2007 15:13:46

#331

Or 'obviously' ;-)

294

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 15:14:16

330 Apply for membership while being a member I think is what it means. Its the only way to sqaure Borg's views on adhering to the CFP.

However Professor Emile Noel, former head of the EU legal service and DG, and Gallagher, former DG, say we would continue in membership without application.

It seems everyone agrees on continued membership at least.

Whether Scotland chooses to keep that status should be up to the people of Scotland in a referendum, but we have established all sides agree on the legal continuity in the mean time.

295

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 15:15:35

331 Spare a thought for Wendy and Jackie. They have to keep typing "unintentionally" and "unwittingly" and "unknowingly" 20 times a day at the moment.

296

Ex-pat observer,

12/12/2007 15:17:56

#320 - It's very simple. If a Scotland outside the EU did not adhere to the Fishing Policy, Scotland would not have unfettered access to the EU's markets. The EU makes the rules because the EU is the biggest player.

297

 Meths,

12/12/2007 15:18:38

318. AM2, Glasgow / 2:48pm 12 Dec 2007

#312 Ayrshire Scot™

"Is that all Robin Cook said?"


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/845039.stm

298

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 15:19:04
301

tartan army 2222,

12/12/2007 15:21:30

#335

But it's a very small root, and decreasing in size all the time.

On the other hand I would argue that the negativity and bile of the unionists is growing every day - albeit aimed mainly at nationalists (we're not all that bad you know). I would also say that I've heard the way that Labour members (not just at the grassroots) speak in regard to those who do not fit their cosy wee WASP criteria - and it's not nice!

302

tartan army 2222,

12/12/2007 15:25:02

342

You can call me British, you can give me a British passport, you can even make me compete for Britain at the Olympics - but it doesn't make me feel British. And therein lies the problem with the union - the vast majority in Scotland don't feel the supposed unity. We are second class citizens. You, my Northern Irish friend, are a fourth class citizen, so I would have thought you could see through it.

303

The Master,

12/12/2007 15:25:06

309. Ayrshire Scot™ / 2:39pm 12 Dec 2007
303 AM2
Are you saying that Mr Borg, by personal acumen or by dint of his commission appointment, is an expert in the area he was commenting on?

Ayrshire old chump, I’ve not had time to trawl through the plethora of posts on here, but imagine that AM2 is rightly highlighting the uncertainty which surrounds this complicated legal question. Let’s just stand back from all the mud slinging and admit one fact: there is a degree of uncertainty. Given this uncertainty, imagine that Scotland is a business which has to plan for the future. Would any cautious and sensible business proceed with a policy which could have such unpredictable consequences? I would draw one of my analogies with Northern Rock: didn’t the directors of that esteemed institution destroy their whole business plan by taking an unreasonable gamble on the wisdom of borrowing on the wholesale financial market.

Btw, I just love the way that the Scotsman always highlight the fact that the SNP invariably draw on the opinion of that well known legal expert, the late Robin Cook! Keep it up, Scotsman: we love you!

304

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 15:27:46

348 " the SNP invariably draw on the opinion of that well known legal expert, the late Robin Cook!"

As opposed to the legal expertise of Wendy Alexander and Jackie Baillie, quoted in the article? We all know their expertise of matters relating to international law.....

305

Alex Salmond, C U Next Tuesday,

12/12/2007 15:30:32

342

The vast majority in Scotland don't want independence either, did you forget that?

Let's have a referendum tomorrow: Independence, Maintain the status quo, or more powers for the Scottish Parliament, put the debate to bed for a while.

306

Alex Salmond, C U Next Tuesday,

12/12/2007 15:30:57

I meant 347 sorry.

307

,

12/12/2007 15:33:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1225202, Article id was mapped to record!
308

 Meths,

12/12/2007 15:34:37

350

Agreed. Let's have a referendum tomorrow.

309

Highland Mighty,

12/12/2007 15:35:06

#334. ?

I've posted under two previous monikers over the past 4 months and only changed because I got bored with the names.

Who am I then?

310

Highland Mighty,

12/12/2007 15:36:33

The British Isles? Note the plural.

With the biggest one called 'Great Britain'.....eh?

311

 Meths,

12/12/2007 15:36:43

355

Don't really care. You are who you are...a pillock by any other name.

312

Highland Mighty,

12/12/2007 15:37:54

334

Aah! The old multi-faker accusation! Got me!

313

tartan army 2222,

12/12/2007 15:43:43

352 TBU

I agree with you in that you are more British (can I call someone from NI British?). But in English eyes you are nothing more than the tail-end of an afterthought. I thought we had in bad in Scotland, but I really pity you (although I'm sure you don't want me to). Just check out poverty levels - that doesn't just happen without a high degree of neglect.

I do disagree with your assertion that you gave more during the wars than Scots or Welsh. I think you'll find the facts do not back up that argument one bit. Scots, Welsh, Irish and English died in both those wars. No death was more pertinent than any of the others.

314

The Master,

12/12/2007 15:44:16

Ochone, ochone: where art thou? You promised us a saucy episode of your gripping AM2 saga and it’s yet to materialise. I do hope you haven’t given up on it, in view of the indifference which it has stirred up. What self respecting troll would persist with such a project if it caused about as much of a stir as…let me see…the SNP’s much touted referendum, if it ever sees the light of day.

315

BMeister,

12/12/2007 15:44:49

#348 The Master

As you say, there is a degree of uncertainty about whether Scotland would have to reapply and whether we would want to.
The only certainty is that Scotland would not have problems becoming a member if necessary.
So it would appear both sides are wrong if they assert their opposing opinions as fact.

316

World View,

12/12/2007 15:45:40

#350
]
Why do people like you and AM2 (apart from your stupid biases) keep saying that most Scots don't want independence when recent polls have shown that more than half of Scots want independence?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news....

A poll right now would certainly put the figure much higher, given that labour have sunk into oblivion.

Independence is coming as a matter of course, which makes it less necessary to waste time arguing with whinging unionist freakoids like you.

317

World View,

12/12/2007 15:51:03

#348

As Roosevelt said:

"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself"

I think that answers your question of uncertainty, Master.

The days of scaredy-cat unionist ploys are well and truly done.

318

Ex-pat observer,

12/12/2007 15:51:52

#353 - Thus speaks the moderate voice of Scottish nationalism. Such sweet reason.

Should unionist collaborators be shot?

319

Ex-pat observer,

12/12/2007 15:53:16

#362 - Scots want independence so much they have never given a majority of their votes to the party that wil deliver it.

320

BMeister,

12/12/2007 15:55:00

#362
Ah because ofm the perfidy of the poll commissioners and the disingeniousness of self-styled statisticians like AM2. The more options you give people the more diluted the outcome. If there are several options then it's unlikely any one will get a majority. Have 2 options and there is an inbuilt majority.
Hence the keenness of the unionist parties to push a poll with at least 3 options (and more if their commision can think of them) as opposed to the nationalists who would like a simple yes/no as given current poll results this would be pretty even and , if they can show good governance, will most likely increase.

What polls do seem to indicate is that the status quo is increasingly unpopular, hence the Labour party's about turn on that issue.

321

 Meths,

12/12/2007 15:55:53

358. Highland Mighty / 3:37pm 12 Dec 2007

334

"Aah! The old multi-faker accusation! Got me!"

Correct. I accused you and you admitted it in 355 "I've posted under two previous monikers over the past 4 months and only changed because I got bored with the names."

Nuff said.

322

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 15:57:27

365 Ex pat

353 is a fake (check the "." after the name) - it is in fact the voice of a Unionist troll. Thoughts on unionist tactics?

323

Alex Salmond, C U Next Tuesday,

12/12/2007 15:59:32

362,

You say that, yet you're still arguing aren't you?

363,

So what was the 3 option 1997 referendum then as, in your opinion, it wasn't a referendum?

Many Scots, such as myself, want more powers for Holyrood rather than full independence, making any referendum excluding this option ridiculous.

You claim unionists are scared of a referendum, but the nats only want one on terms to suit themselves? Hardly a pinnacle of democracy that is it?

324

BMeister,

12/12/2007 16:01:45

#366
'Scots want independence so much they have never given a majority of their votes to the party that wil deliver it.'

No, but that does apeear to be becoming increasingly likely.

325

Ex-pat observer,

12/12/2007 16:05:45

369 - If that is the case, I apologise. And the person doing it is a nobheed.

326

Julian,

12/12/2007 16:06:41

Scotleag # 59

Thanks for that. I actually took the 39% figure for the SNP on theur percentage of MSP's at Holyrood. 31% and 33% suits my argument better.

It's funny how SNP supporters use the fact that the SNP are in govenment as evidence that we are on the verge of independence when they are actually there on a third of the vote and latest polls show support for independence at a 10 year low of 28%.

As I said, we've heard it all before. The words "free" and "93" spring to mind.

327

tartan army 2222,

12/12/2007 16:08:47

366 ex-pat

One recent You Gov poll gave close on 50% of Labour voters as not being averse to independence. The numbers from the Tories and Lib Dems is also high, certainly in the high 20%s. I don't have the linking skills of old Arthur Midw, sorry AM2, but you can find it on the YouGov website (p29 of the report if I remember correctly).

And if it's so clear-cut then why don't they call our bluff?

328

Former opponent,

12/12/2007 16:09:42

#302 - "Ayrshire Scot." the troll.

"What caused you suddenly to start supporting all those lefties in the SNP? Do you want to pay the higher rate on an even greater proportion of your income? Don't believe what they say about the SNP being Tartan Tories."

Actually, I don't support the SNP, I have no wish to pay even more tax than I do at present and I don't think that the SNP are Tartan Tories.

329

World View,

12/12/2007 16:11:08

#370

Not arguing. Just explaining the truth behind your lies.


#366
So perhaps you can explain why the SNP (the pro-independence party) are in Government? And don't give me any crap about what YOU mean by a majority. They won. Simple as that. And you will find (and admit it, too, if you have any sort of decency, unlike AM2) that this majority WILL increase in the coming years. This is inevitable, especially now that Labour have blown themselves off the face of the political map.

But, as I said before, it is becoming unnecessary to argue about all this because independence is getting very close to being a foregone conclusion. You know this yourself but are unlikely to admit it simply because you don't want to.

330

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 16:12:36

372 No worries - is the same chap who posts as "Alex Salmond" - sad relflection on unionist debate.

331

Julian,

12/12/2007 16:13:49

#370,

The 1997 referendum wasn't really a 3 option one as people have been referring to.

It was actually 2 questions.
(1) Do you want a Scottish Parliament
(2) Should it have tax raising powers.

Therefore a majority was guaranteed. on both questions.

332

,

12/12/2007 16:17:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1225385, Article id was mapped to record!
333

Julian,

12/12/2007 16:18:40

# 374 Tartan Army 222

What exactly does "not being averse to independence mean"?

If I had a plate of cabbage and a piece of cheesecake in front of me you could say I was not averse to the cabbage but it doesn't mean that's the one I want;-)

334

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 12/12/2007 16:19:02

A lot of hot air about hypothetical situations. We'll see what happens with Belgium, which looks like it'll beat us to it.

335

BMeister,

12/12/2007 16:20:43

#382
Indeed, and makes good chocolate and refreshing continental strength lagers to boot.

336

Ayr-Swipe Scut™,

12/12/2007 16:29:14

Why does the SNP want to join the European Union?

I thought Scotland was to be independant. Barring militiarily of course as the SNP will rely on the goodwill of NATO to defend us while giving not a penny back in return. Pathetic.

Admit it. You just hate the English and learned your history from Mel Gibson's pathetic film.

If only the SNP on here could acknowledge at least to themselves that the reason they have low paid - crappy - jobs is because they are thick and think aspiring to waiting tables for golf tourists is the best they can get.

337

,

12/12/2007 16:30:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1225448, Article id was mapped to record!
338

Tepid Mouse,

oN sAtUrN's RiNg 12/12/2007 16:32:43

Does this affect the Christmas Islands? Retention in comparison? Likely?

339

Karin M,

12/12/2007 16:34:06

breaking news police are too ballot on strike action.

340

The Master,

12/12/2007 16:35:36

374. tartan army 2222 / 4:08pm 12 Dec 2007
366 ex-pat
One recent You Gov poll gave close on 50% of Labour voters as not being averse to independence. The numbers from the Tories and Lib Dems is also high, certainly in the high 20%s.

“Not averse to independence”! Is this sorry desperation or what? Can you Nats soften the question any further? You really are plumbing the depths here, or are you on the march with the ghost of Ally McLeod?

341

BMeister,

12/12/2007 16:39:15

384 Scut
To paraphrase Ex-pat Observer
'Thus speaks the moderate voice of unionism. Such sweet reason'

If you have to troll try not to be so obvious or bigoted.

PS. Still believe 40% of all Scots females are on the pill?

Or that tampons are a common prescription item?

342

Ex-pat observer,

12/12/2007 16:40:37

#377 - They are in power because they got more seats and votes than Labour.

It just seems strange to me that if the Scottish people are yearning for independence they never give the majority of their votes to the one party in a position to deliver it.

343

,

12/12/2007 16:42:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1225497, Article id was mapped to record!
344

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

12/12/2007 16:43:27

#388 It is to be expected from a party whose leadership are not fundamentalists when it comes to the question of independence but gradualists.

One wonders what will happen when their fundamentalist supporters wake up and smell the coffee?

345

Sideshow Bob,

12/12/2007 16:56:32

377. World View / 4:11pm 12 Dec 2007

Believe it or not, I agree with you that the SNP’s majority in the Parliament looks like increasing in coming years. However, what you have failed properly to grasp is that it’s the SNP’s non independence policies which form the basis of its bedrock of support and that the independence policy will almost inevitably languish on the back burner as the other policies come more and more to the fore. Ever heard of goal displacement, World View? I do hope you don’t lie awake at night worrying that the independence policy will some day go down the plug hole completely, much as it has in Wales. Unless I’m very much mistaken (and it has been known), haven’t Plaid Cymru now thrown their weight behind a form of “devolution max”, or are they sponsored by Coca Cola, unlike the SNP who are supported by the reactionary and unlovable Brian Souter?

346

Julian,

12/12/2007 16:59:18

#385 Ayrshire Scot,

"The most recent polls I’ve heard of put support for independence at 23%"

I can't quite work it out. Was that a typo or just plain sarcasm?

347

BMeister,

12/12/2007 16:59:41

395 EV
Calm yourself. There was nothing in my post which was bigoted, nor was it trolling.

Scut made these statements the other day when there was a debate on free prescriptions and these were 2 examples he gave of how the NHS would be brought to it's knees once everyone began clamouring for them free.

His post on the other hand was just a litany of insults which contributes nothing to any debate.

348

Earnst Blofeld,

12/12/2007 17:00:37

380. Alex Salmond, C U Next Tuesday

Is it me you are referring to as posting as other people?
I joined and posted on this site for the first time last night, why do you think I am also other people?

And you never had sex with that woman!

349

BMeister,

12/12/2007 17:01:24

395 EV
Also I am not pro-SNP per se but rather pro either independence or fedaralism.

As I said, calm yourself.

350

BMeister,

12/12/2007 17:06:06

397 Julian
It's not Ayrshire Scot, it's an impersonatorl, note the . at the end.

351

,

12/12/2007 17:09:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1225600, Article id was mapped to record!
352

Geoff,

South Africa 12/12/2007 17:11:01

Evening Guys-this is a non story! If Scotland ever becomes Independent(Heaven forbid!) it will have no problem getting into Europe and ceding sovereignty back to Brussels. This is all same old,same old stuff. Come to the Scottish attitude to Muslims blog-much better and needing of your grey matter AND much more pertinent with regard to Scotlands future.

353

ochone, ochone,

Sauchie, clack's 12/12/2007 17:11:11

The Master 360, Hi there Master, if it's such a bore for you, why bother to ask about it? incidently, it's received responses from Edinburgh to Michigan.

Perhaps you could explain a couple of things, first why are you unionists so shy? If you don't come out mob handed you don't come out at all.

Also if your partys are so certain about a referendum then why don't they push one through, they out number the Government or Westminster could do it, it has the authority, so you tell me why they don't and why unionists like you don't push them to do it.?

354

HEN BROON 5,

12/12/2007 17:15:05

#396.YOU SAID: "unlike the SNP who are supported by the reactionary and unlovable Brian Souter?"


Why does not wanting children to be taught that having sex with someone of the same gender get some one branded as above in your world.

The antics of the GLF at the time could certainly be branded as "reactionary and unlovable ," and also violent, I have no problem with what they do to each other in the privacy of their own homes. But to actively seek to indoctrinate young impressionable children into their life style is sick.

Brian Souter is a very successful business man who is a shining example to Scots. And like Sean Connery does a lot of unrecognised charity work among Scotland's disadvantaged using millions of his own money. More than can be said for the bitter and twisted perverts that try and discredit him.

355

Ex-pat observer,

12/12/2007 17:21:24

#403 - Whatever system is contrived, it would not stop Scots from voting SNP. But the majority don't and never have.

356

Geoff,

South Africa 12/12/2007 17:21:46

359 Tartan Army-can u call someone from NI British??? Absolutely! Many Northern Irish people are of british descent and proud of that fact! Others prefer to be called Irish which is also OK.

357

Geoff,

South Africa 12/12/2007 17:27:04

352 True Blue Unionist Newtonabbey-greetings from SA-No Surrender!!

358

Former opponent,

12/12/2007 17:34:57

#392

My "moniker" is entirely accurate but refers to something other than my position in relation to independence. I adopted it for my first post on these boards and have posted under it since then. It is only your own assumption that it refers to my views on independence that mislead you.

My occasional posts have, I think, been consistent on future membership of the EU by an independent Scotland; the idea that the Unionist parties should have forced a straight yes/no referendum on independence immediately after the election; that Salmond is in fact doing a very effective job in advancing an independence agenda (whether or not I agree with that agenda); and that I think a federal UK or independent Scotland may now be inevitable.

Try reading posts rather than making assumptions based on "monikers". And try replying substantively rather than with irrelevant invective.

359

First Minister,

Hanoveria 12/12/2007 17:41:51

AM2
please deny or confirm this< when Scotland becomes Independent, will the EU welcome Scotland(peaceful) with it's 75% of Europe's oil, largest coastline, whisky, tourism, Agriculture and a debt of say £60 billion, or will it kick out England for having too high a debt? (600 billion and counting)Would England(warmongering aggressors with Trident) nearly become bankrupt as they would have No resources they can secure the debt against? Also they would have to spend 100's of millions on building somewhere to store Trident.
will AM2 answer?

360

HEN BROON 5,

12/12/2007 17:45:59

#409.. Give it up you shape shifting saddo, you are to transparent, to fanatical, to ridiculous, to predictable. The union is finished and it's thanks to fanatics like you, so your 24/7 madness has achieved zilch. Have you not got a few more flies to pul the wings of. I hate you better when you are in your Ulster Unionist garb.

361

Geoff,

South Africa 12/12/2007 17:50:48

413-IF Scotland(peaceful yes but you forgot to mention defenceless!) ever becomes Independent then no doubt the EU would accept it. To say the rest of the UK have no resources is absolute rubbish. Scotlands oil is but a small fraction of the UK's current and future wealth/earning power. As to Trident, it doesnt need "somewhere to store it.." It is housed in existing Nuclear submarines.

362

The Master,

12/12/2007 17:50:53

405. ochone, ochone, Sauchie, clack's / 5:11pm 12 Dec 2007

Glad your literary efforts have been met with some kind of a response. I think that AM2 is laid back about the whole endeavour because he knows that there’s no such thing as bad publicity and that you are only encouraging a wider audience to sample his cogently argued posts. I myself was only attracted by your promise to add a touch of raunch to the usual dry political rants which pollute this site.

We unionists come out mob handed because you Nats have no real appeal to the Scottish public and so only need a good beating down every now and again. As to your referendum question, the reason the mainstream parties don’t push this through is that to do so would play right into Salmond’s hands by shooting his duck for him What I mean by this is that Alex is only too well aware that he’s going to lose any referendum and that this is what he actually wants. The reason he wants this is that he will then be able to develop his power base, free of the deadweight of the independence policy. Wake up and smell the cookies, Ochone!

The other reason for opposing a referendum is that no-one, apart from the SNP fanatics, is all that interested. It could therefore happen that the result is skewed as a result of a low turn out, and we both know that your party wouldn’t be slow to put a positive spin on any result achieved in the face of voter apathy, even if you still failed to achieve outright victory. Anyway, it’s nice to have the opportunity to bandy words with a famous author: usually I have to content myself with a few words with Iain Banks at book signings (yes, I’m a fan despite his nationalism, just as I’ve never even considered boycotting Sir Sean films!)

#414 Hen Broon: are you a unionist troll who deliberately tries to pose as a "way out there" Nat? If so, keep up the good work!

363

ochone, ochone,

Sauchie, clack's 12/12/2007 17:51:33

I guess the Masters mammie must have called him for his tea.

Aw well I'll be back later to read his reply, presuming of course that there is one.

Master, wonder what his surname is?

364

Andrew Allan,

12/12/2007 17:54:58

#413., First Minister.

First, is it ok of me to call you first, the more things change, the more they stay the same, and in this case with joining the EU automatically post independence, we already have a foot in the door as long as we at least stick with the royal family we already have until everything is finalized. This would mean us sticking with calling ourselves either UK:Scotland or Scotland:UK.

365

,

12/12/2007 18:04:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1225770, Article id was mapped to record!
366

Andrew Allan,

12/12/2007 18:06:42

#415,Geoff, South Africa / 5:50pm 12 Dec 2007
‘413-IF Scotland(peaceful yes but you forgot to mention defenceless!) ever becomes Independent then no doubt the EU would accept it. To say the rest of the UK have no resources is absolute rubbish. Scotlands oil is but a small fraction of the UK's current and future wealth/earning power. As to Trident, it doesnt need "somewhere to store it.." It is housed in existing Nuclear submarines.’

Geoff, you seem to be under the misapprehension that Scotland’s oil is the total resources at Scotland’s disposal; otherwise you wouldn’t have made such a ridiculous assumption it made so little difference to the exchequer, and for Trident and the submarines, they need deep water to be housed, which it doesn’t have in any English port at present, but does exist in Scotland.

367

The Master,

12/12/2007 18:11:43

417. ochone, ochone, Sauchie, clack's / 5:51pm 12 Dec 2007

She only cooks my tea when I relocate my TARDIS to my second home in Edinburgh at weekends. Rogue Timelords don’t have surnames, Ochone: as an author, it’s important to do proper research, you know! Also, I'd quite literally fear for my safety if some of the Nat crazies on here found it out.

368

Warden An' All, Reborn,

12/12/2007 18:13:22

420/Andrew Allan - Trident doesn't need to be based at sea, but it is also possible to create deep a water base at sea if required.

369

Andrew Allan,

12/12/2007 18:20:08

#422, The Master.

I would of thought the greatest danger to your person would have been the ridicule and baiting you would have received.

370

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 18:25:15

421 Scotland has 62% of the EU's proven oil reserves

423 - The reference to Tibet is from a uninist troll.

371

The Master,

12/12/2007 18:32:23

#426 Andrew Allan: there are people who know me who are aware that I post on here (including one or two Nats), but they are resoundingly loyal. Anyway, my views are far more mainstream than yours. When I expostulate, no-one is particularly taken aback by anything I say and the few Nats of my acquaintance quite happily agree to differ with me.

On the subject of all the anti English graffiti which English Voice has highlighted, I was recently in a pub in Leith with a group, one of whom was English and who got punched in the face for no good reason. There were no dissenting voices when I subsequently laid forth on the evils of nationalism and the rise of the SNP.

372

David MacVicar,

web 12/12/2007 18:34:03

Trident and the whole Nuclear debate:

Of course Trident can be moved to Englend, I certainly dont want it Scotland (like the majority who live in Scotland). The issue is _ who wants the 950 direct jobs that come with it badly enough and how much will cost.
Many areas could be glad of the jobs but the UK doent want the £M100s that go with it.

The thing is should Gov UK bite the bullet and move now and have Scotland pay its part or wait until we vote with our feet and rump UK foots the Bill in one way or another AND gift Scotland a major bargaining chip?
===========================
Nuclear Power.
I had quick look at hansard over Nuclear power responsibilities, decommissioning and waste management.

As the Scottish Secretary announced: UK has Control over Nuclear power and generation sites and waste sites. Devolved government has planning powers.

However one thing I did not know was that waste treatment costs is also the responsibility of the devolved governments. Can anyone seriously expect the devolved governments to accept the UK forcing through a New Nuclear plant in their jurisdiction and have the devolved government foot the bill for the resulting waste, all this while the government still doesnt even have an official disposal plan or idea of the costs involved or burial sites after over 30 years of looking?

373

Andrew Allan,

12/12/2007 18:37:42

#421,An English voice... / 6:09pm 12 Dec 2007
‘75% of Europe's oil?? Where did you get that from?? Now, you're just being silly!’

Though the percentage of oil is a little on the high side it shouldn’t be too much of a surprise Scotland has such a high quantity, who in European union has that much of a supply? You really need to take your head, with its tiny mind, out of your personal space where the sun doesn’t shine, looking for that English voice of yours.

374

Earnst Blofeld,

12/12/2007 18:39:04

#428 The Master: you’ve met the Spook in Leith then!

375

 Meths,

12/12/2007 18:39:15

428

Maybe he got punched because he was just an annoying wee get! We've ALL been punched in our lives. Don't make this into an SNP thing now. After all, the minority of Scots voted SNP so it was probably a non-SNP thug.

(Well it makes about as much sense as your post)

;-)

376

David MacVicar,

web 12/12/2007 18:40:21

428. The Master.

I am shocked! Punching a guy in the face as a pretext to launch an anti SNP diatribe is low even for you ;)

377

,

12/12/2007 18:41:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1225904, Article id was mapped to record!
378

 Meths,

12/12/2007 18:42:48

I'd rather take an orbital sander tae ma PILES than be stuck in a pub with EV.

379

Andrew Allan,

12/12/2007 18:43:36

#428,The Master / 6:32pm 12 Dec 2007
‘ #426 Andrew Allan: there are people who know me who are aware that I post on here (including one or two Nats), but they are resoundingly loyal. Anyway, my views are far more mainstream than yours. When I expostulate, no-one is particularly taken aback by anything I say and the few Nats of my acquaintance quite happily agree to differ with me.
On the subject of all the anti English graffiti which English Voice has highlighted, I was recently in a pub in Leith with a group, one of whom was English and who got punched in the face for no good reason. There were no dissenting voices when I subsequently laid forth on the evils of nationalism and the rise of the SNP.’

I use my own name here, and people would be hard pressed to prove who I am, so what is your point. On the anti-English issue, If you had read me for long enough you would find that I am not anti-English, seeing my English Mother wouldn’t like it.

380

 Meths,

12/12/2007 18:44:06

I'd rather give a ...ach forget it. You get the message.

381

 Meths,

12/12/2007 18:45:18

436

...and others take their place. Away an' bile her heid man.

382

Cairn,

12/12/2007 18:45:44

Interesting to suppose what would happen if Belgium splits?? ( Well as tensions rise between Flemish and French regions fueled by the media, it seems probable) Would Flemish and French areas require to reapply for EU membership ?? Dont think so somehow so why should Scotland?

383

David MacVicar,

web 12/12/2007 18:46:00

436. An English voice...

If there is SO LITTLE oil left in the North Sea why does it occupy so much dedicated space in the UK budgetary reports and a fiscal country all of its own into the bargain?

384

 Meths,

12/12/2007 18:46:19

Time for tea. The floor's yours EV.

ps...what pub do you frequent of an evening?

385

 Meths,

12/12/2007 18:47:31

441. An English voice... / 6:45pm 12 Dec 2007

"Ah, Meths. You know you've lost the argument when you have to resort to abuse and threats.

The shame."

Not really lost ANY argument. I just don't particularly like your style OK?

I'd rather gargle with glass than etc etc etc

386

The Master,

12/12/2007 18:50:26

#438 Andrew Allan: my surname is far more unusual than yours. Glad to hear that you’re not anti English – I was not referring to you specifically, as you are one of the more rational and grounded Nats.

387

David MacVicar,

web 12/12/2007 18:54:08

446. An English voice...

There was a question in the commons about how many jobs at Faslane are directly dependant on trident, the answer was 900 and something. Dont have a direct link, cant be bothered.

388

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 18:57:56

434 I wonder if it was Kimba's boyfriend? Master, did they write SNP on his head after in blue biro?

389

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 18:58:44

446 Why, will they stop building the ships? Strange.

390

ochone, ochone,

Sauchie, clack's 12/12/2007 19:00:48

Master, I have seen some daft answers to questions etc on these pages but the one you just posted takes the prize.

The majority of those commenting on my little saga have gone out of their way to make it clear that they do not agree with AM2 and far from thinking his arguements cogent they have all said quite the opposite, several on these very pages.

As for your arguement regarding why unionist partys dont want a referendum please!!!

There are unionist supporters on here all the time banging on about a referendum so I take it the partys they support would be after the same thing, perhaps you should get together and discuss it!

As for beating us down, perhaps you didn't notice the result of the election in May.

Alex Salmond doesn't want Independence does he not, the first power base Alex Salmond and All SNP councillors, msp's and mp's have is the power or the support they get from the party, ie it's members.

now whilst members of othe rpart's have had their democratic rights taken away, that is not the case within the SNP, where all the high heid yins have to be resellected every year by vote fromthe members up.

Alex knows full well, that very popular though he is, if he were daft enough to drop independence then the party through it's membership would drop him and any other who might support him.

He, if he wished to continue, would be an independent, his political supporters would slaughter him if he tried this, but the reason he won't is because he believes in independence for Scotland, which if you are half as bright as you try to make out you should know.

I have already commented on your beleif that no one else is really interested in a referendum. I guess you havn't covered all todays scotish media yet.

As for skewed results etc and the SNP's reactioni gues your too young to remeber the first dodgy referendum on devolution and the way it was mis-handled by Westminster or you wouldn't be so quick t

391

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 19:04:59

455 Why no contracts. If the yards were good enough to win them? Would the existing contracts stop on day 1 of independence? Strange.

392

David MacVicar,

web 12/12/2007 19:06:51

EV, why are you still here? OK for the benefit of homo sapiens who frequent the site the official figures from hansard and Geoff Hoon is:

"On 21 February 2005 Geoff Hoon said:
‘The number of civilian jobs which directly rely upon the Trident programme is
estimated to be 936 in Scotland, with an additional 6,640 in the rest of the United Kingdom"

STUC details of direct employees at last counhjt are listed as:

Security, Health & Safety 400
Engineering & Science 60
Logistics 30
Other 60
Babcock Naval Systems
Technical & Supervisory 70
Clerical 70
Manual – outfitting 200
Manual – steel work 40
Manual – other 10
Total 940

393

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 19:10:24

458 What a great argument.

394

cataibh,

Bo'ness 12/12/2007 19:33:35

AM2 The party supporting independence recieved the largest support at the May election, All of the the London based parties failed to gain a majority.FACT

395

Displaced Scot,

UK 12/12/2007 19:36:26

While all of this academic, why not get independence and keep control of all of your fishing grounds. This will generate more income for Scotland, which will mean more jobs for Scots. If the Spanish and overs want Scottish fish they can buy it

396

Breezy,

Argyll 12/12/2007 19:43:47

#457. David, your figures are of course correct, although there are a number of redundancies in the engineering sector taking place.

397

,

12/12/2007 20:13:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
398

connaughtboy,

12/12/2007 20:17:46

#261 AM2

The debate between you and me descended into insults purely becuase you chose to get personal rather than debate the issues. For the record nothing I said was "distasteful" or insulting.

399

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 20:19:13

456 LOL. Farmfoods...LMAO...nice one

400

connaughtboy,

12/12/2007 20:23:37

#294 AM2 really, its time you grew up. If you are going to take a mega huff every time someone challenges you then you may as well stop coming on here. You are very often deliberately contraversial just to get a response ie being first to post on a story pre-empting the Nat hysteria. Goading is part of your style, but like most bullies you hate people using the tactic against you.

401

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

12/12/2007 20:27:44

#467 Agree about the mince bit - it is Cameron's party and its policies that have been the driving force of nationalism - he just can't see it.

402

connaughtboy,

12/12/2007 20:31:02

#409 English Voice

So let me get this straight. A referendum should only be held if the majority of the potential voters would vote in favour of independence. That seems like circular reasoning to me.

Also, you believe that unless people march on Westminster they don't feel strongly about a particular issue.

You are making yourself appear ill-educated and a bit silly. I am sure this is just an act.

403

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 20:32:18

470 Honestly, as if I would goad AM2?

404

connaughtboy,

12/12/2007 20:34:39

#421 English Voice

Wrong, if you include PFI (PPP) off balance sheet debt, our national debt is over £1,000 billion. If you don't believe me, research it.

405

connaughtboy,

12/12/2007 20:35:04

#421 or is my last post too subtle for you?

406

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

12/12/2007 20:45:45

#476 Never been a fence-sitter in my life - as you should know by now - I have an opinion on everything!!

;)

As for Camera-On standing in the gorbals - would love to see the "welcome" he got doing a doorstep!!

:D

407

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 20:49:00

476 Ooops Poos

408

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 12/12/2007 21:26:59

"Like the poor old prostitute she really is at heart, the City of London is running out of her aging financial tricks."

It's time for an appropriate quote rather than advocating what Independence means and what it will INVOLVE. But think about it!

409

 Meths,

12/12/2007 21:34:12

Where's the big story? We were promised one yesterday. I want a big story. I don't want a golf story or an EU story. I want MEGASTORY........

(MEGASTORY DOES NOT = TRAM)

410

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

12/12/2007 21:36:09

Huns lose 3-0 and a man sent sent off.

Shown up for the poor team they are.

411

 Meths,

12/12/2007 21:45:30

Spookie who doesn't like Scottish teams in Europe

May the curse of a thousand trams keep you awake in the lonely hours.

412

 Meths,

12/12/2007 21:46:24

Spookie

May the curse of a gated community keep the likes of you outside peering in.

413

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/12/2007 21:46:55

486 Depends if they are blue nosed huns or not :-)

414

 Meths,

12/12/2007 21:49:26

488 Ayrshire mate who resurrected the Meths

I'd want them to win for a Scottish voice. The fans are a different story.

May the curse of a thousand Wendys dip into yer cheque book.

415

 Meths,

12/12/2007 21:51:41

Eve. Are you the Eve who wanted the colours in the web pages a while back?

416

 Meths,

12/12/2007 21:54:22

I'm away tae ma kip. G'night all.

417

wisdom,

Edinburgh 12/12/2007 22:23:40

Perhaps it is not in the long term best interests of the Scottish people to have 'AUTOMATIC' entry to the EU.They should slowly chew over the pros and cons and make their decision known in a referendum.