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Anger at EU talks as Germany hit by Nazi jibes

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Published Date:
22 June 2007
TALKS on a treaty to replace the European Constitution got off to an angry start last night, after Poland launched an astonishing verbal attack on Germany over its Nazi past and Tony Blair threatened to walk away from the negotiations.
European Union leaders have gathered in Brussels hoping to agree an amended form of the constitution rejected by French and Dutch voters in 2004.

But the new form of the document is proving intensely controversial, particularly its proposals to c
hange member states' voting weights and enshrine a "Charter of Fundamental Rights" in European law.

Many major British employers fear that the charter would give their workers new rights to strike, and Mr Blair yesterday signalled he was ready to "walk away from a deal" that gives the charter legal force in Britain.

That is one of the four "red lines" Britain laid down before the talks began. Mr Blair also said he would refuse any move to extend EU powers over UK policy in foreign affairs, criminal justice or social security.

Arriving in Brussels for his last EU summit before stepping down as Prime Minister next Wednesday, Mr Blair predicted "tough negotiations".

He said: "We have laid down four areas where we have to have significant change and we will have to see that change - it will have to be done. The four areas we set down we do need satisfied in full."

Mr Blair's insistence on Britain's demands being met "in full" infuriated other EU leaders, who believe Britain must be ready to compromise. Jose Manual Barroso, the European Commission President, yesterday said Mr Blair was not being "sensible" about the talks.

But if Britain's position is generating tension in Brussels, it is a minor row compared to Poland's spectacular rhetorical offensive.

The draft treaty would revise the EU's decision-making process with a new voting system giving countries power according to their population.

That would reduce the power of Poland - which has 38 million people - at the expense of Germany, which has 82 million. The Polish government has reacted with fury to the proposal, threatening to veto a new treaty and badly straining relations with the German government, which is chairing the Brussels talks.

As part of the escalating war of words over voting reforms, Jaroslaw Kaczynski, the Polish prime minister, broke the greatest taboo of the modern EU by raising Germany's actions in the war.

Poland lost 6.5 million people during the Second World War, more than a fifth of its population.

Mr Kaczynski said that death toll explains the size of his country's population today. "We are only demanding one thing - we get back what was taken from us. If Poland had not had to live through the years of 1939-45, Poland would today be looking at the demographics of a country of 66 million. Germans inflicted unimaginable injury, terrible harm on Poles, incomprehensible crimes."

Despite that painful history, he claimed, "Poles like Germans, while Germans do not like Poles".

The origins of the modern EU lie in an attempt to reconcile Germany with its wartime enemies, and even to mention the conflict is almost unthinkable to many EU officials.

Publicly, the German government did not respond to the Polish provocation. As the summit began, Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, said: "Each country will be taken very seriously as regards their concerns."

But privately, German officials were stunned by the verbal assault. "This just shows the character of the man," said one. Another accused Mr Kaczynski of seeking "confrontation".

Other EU nations also criticised the Poles. Anders Fogh Rasmussen, the Danish prime minister, described the Polish position as "absurd" and Romania called the comments "a step backwards".

After the summit's acrimonious start, diplomats were last night resigned to the talks dragging on into the early hours of tomorrow morning.



Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 21 June 2007 9:05 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: European Union
 
1

,

22/06/2007 00:04:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 727598, Article id was mapped to record!
2

Senga Jean,

Edinburgh 22/06/2007 00:10:09

Did they listen to a certain East Lothian MP?

3

Senga Jean,

Edinburgh 22/06/2007 00:11:37

The chermans are blamed for the towels but we all know who is worst..innit.

4

brian mcc,

the arctic 22/06/2007 00:17:35

The deepest and oldest wounds are those that heal over with scar tissue...

5

Gregor Addison,

Scotland 22/06/2007 00:29:59

First of all, this kind of accusation is one that young Germans have to bear. It is frequently made. We all remember Berlusconi's remarks! But I'd remind people that a thirty year old in Germany today was born in 1977, more than thirty years after the end of the war. Are we really prepared to dismiss a new generation of Germans as Nazis?

Secondly, this is a kind of politicking that is extremely objectionable. Rather than deal with present issues, it reframes them in terms of a past that was outwith the control of most Germans living today. The fact that many Poles victimized people of Jewish descent living in Poland seems to have conveniently escaped Mr Kaczynski.

Thirdly, the comment at #1 from Archie MacPherson2 shows that this type of attack is a mainstay of political debate across Europe. It not only has to be borne by young Germans but also by anyone who supports the SNP here in Scotland. It is clear to me that the boorish, bigoted behavior lies with the accusers, not with the accused.

I would be more prepared to listen to reasonable examples than rhetorical excesses.

6

Ronnie W,

The Far Blue Yonder 22/06/2007 00:51:09

# 1 Archie MacPherson2

Your post is typical of the mindless garbage which we have come to expect from posters of a certain persuasion - usually from people who have nothing useful to contribute.

The old saying still holds true :

When you have nothing useful to say, say nothing.

7

Scullion,

Canada 22/06/2007 00:52:50

I remember a famous U.S. comedian suggesting that the newly reunited Germany be named "Nazichusetts". I , born almost a decade and a half after the end of WWII, was brought up thinking that Germans were the epitome of militaristic evil. My mother, when watching documentaries showing Nazi parades, would scream at the screen, "Where are you now, animals?"
Not right surely, but it shows that Europe is still too fragmented to be more than a loose confederation for some generations to come.

8

Peter Cherbi,

Edinburgh 22/06/2007 01:12:00

and to think the media fall for such things .. its only theatrics & political posturing to get national interests into the treaty (or omitted from it perhaps) .. and all the while Mr Blair in the background pulling the strings no doubt.

9

,

22/06/2007 01:38:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 727716, Article id was mapped to record!
10

I'm going for a beer,

On my high horse 22/06/2007 02:04:40

mmm, I even agree with Scullion. Trying to get this this bland-as-Belgium EU to work is like flogging a dead horse. Give up - to the pub I say!

11

donald,

weegieland 22/06/2007 04:48:36

Lying "Nazi" jibes against the SNP has long been a stock in trade clique of British Imperialsts.

12

Royster,

22/06/2007 05:32:33

#11. I'm sure Scottish nationalists would have collaberated with Hitler had he managed to conquer the UK. Ireland's De Valera was pro-nazi and lots of petty nationalists like Bretons joined the Nazi cause.

13

Mallory,

22/06/2007 05:55:09

Some interesting comments on Scotland and Nazism see
http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/royal_nazis.html

14

Cadgers,

Perth 22/06/2007 07:10:06

#13 Thanks Mallory, incestuous bunch are they not?

15

Mallory,

22/06/2007 08:22:26

Its all greek to me Cadgers

16

Cadgers,

Perth 22/06/2007 08:39:20

#15 :-)

17

Senga Jean,

Edinburgh 22/06/2007 08:46:19

~12 Royster . It really sticks in your throat how moderate and social democratic the SNP is .I saw your post against Alex Salmond on immigration. A neutral bystander would direct your nazi barb at you. However there is foul intent to smear by Labour. The old Nazi trick of repeat the lie three times and it is perceived as truth. Labour is so so so sad. I remember when my father was proud to support them.

18

Taking a Bigot's Money,

Dundee 22/06/2007 09:13:29

Where's Antifascist . . .?

19

wayne bijlyeerheid,

Teschen 22/06/2007 09:31:55

The Poles have conveniently forgotten that they were a fascist country themselves, and, as Nazi allies took part in the invasion and dismantlement of Czeckoslovakia in 1938.
Wonder if they have any copies of "Rise and Fall of The Third Reich" by William L Shirer in Polish libraries.

20

James Donald,

Crostorfyn 22/06/2007 10:16:00

Germany's casualties in WW2 (including the immediate aftermath) were between 7 and 9 million, so by Kaczynski's demographic reasoning, Germany would still be a far larger country today without the casualties of WW2. I think these comments say more about Kaczynski than it does the Germans.
Clearly he is no fan of Germany having been quoted as saying:
"All I know about Germany is the toilets on Frankfurt Airport, and that is enough anyway" - hardly suitable comments for the Prime Minister of a country that thinks it should have a greater say in the running of the EU.

21

Arrow,

edinburgh 22/06/2007 10:17:44

re #12 the crack about the Bretons; there were dutch, norweigian, polish,ukrainian and sundry other nationalities served in the SS. i am not sure that they were all "nationalists". perhaps they were socialists after all the Nazi party was supposed to be a National Socialist Party. not a french people were in the resistance despite the re-writning of French history after the last unpleasantness with Germany (do not mention the war!).

Scots gave a good account of themselves and fought against facism (and still are) although why we are sending service personell into Afghanistan and Iraq to fight the War of W's Oil puzzles me.
anyway they had nice uniforms, (black with white piping arond the collar and matching cap was sooo you,dear); they could sing good rousing songs and march in straight lines.
ps does that mean that all of the English people (punters and media) that are bumping thier gums about the Scots are "nationalists" and thus neo-nazis? l

22

Taking a Bigot's Money,

Dundee 22/06/2007 10:25:16

A large number of Alsacians, Lorrainers and Lithuanians also served in the SS.

23

New Town Resident,

22/06/2007 10:36:20

As usual, no attention on the issues that matter.

1. Bliar is signing up to giving the EU a legal entity. This means it can sign treaties in our name without our consent. This is a huge transfer of sovereignty.

2. An independent Scotland in the EU will therefore be in precisely the same position as those who now complain about Westminister signing treaties against the will of the Scottish people.

3. But not a word from the SNP, because they are run by a Euro federalist.

4. Its now being claimed up to 54 Labour MPs will rebel and honour their party's commitment to a referendum. How will the SNP vote at Westminster? If they don't insist on a referendum then isn't it obvious their demands for a referendum on Independence for Scotland is a complete sham. Salmond for European President after Bliar perhaps, two sides of the same worthless eurocent?

24

European Scot,

22/06/2007 10:36:56

12 Royster

In a Nazi occupied Scotland, any members of the SNP, Tories, Labour etc. deemed to be of Celtic origin would have been next in line for the gas chambers. All Celts and Gypsies, non Aryans, were destined for the 'showers'.
Your comment is rather sick.
Imagine occupied France, a country dominated and controlled from Berlin, the capital city of Nazi Germany. To maintain control over the French populace, the press and broadcasters were subject to the greatest propaganda effort in history. All news and information slanted in one direction, all for the glory of the fatherland. To help in this effort there were collaborators and fifth columnists, helping their masters and stirring up trouble against those that tried to stand up against the regime. All designed to undermine French confidence and national identity.
Imagine that happening here today !

25

wayne bijlyeerheid,

22/06/2007 10:39:04

#12
You can be a supporter of the Scottish NATIONAL Party without being a nationalist.
As for DeValera, conditions in Ireland were completly different, they had the largest non governing fascist party in Europe and its leader, Eoin O'Duffy was given a state funeral.
Scotland never had a fascist movement to talk about.

26

Here Today HBOS Tomorrow,

22/06/2007 10:45:10

As usual Euro fear, why dont some of you actually live a few EU countries as I have? There you will find that no one wants a single European state, rather a strong group of nations which co-operate and bring mutual benefits to one another. Although of course there are always vested interests and awful policies like the CAP.

I for one cannot see Germany, France or even Luxembourg ever wanting one EU superstate. The latter is even more nationalistic than Scotland, and yet has totally embraced the EU and migration.

27

Ronnie W,

The Far Blue Yonder 22/06/2007 11:05:13

# 12 Royster

Inaccurate information from you yet again. Brittany was one of the areas within France where the Resistance was at its strongest during World War II.

On your (again to be expected) attempt to smear the present day SNP with some fanciful re-writing of the history of 1939 - 1945, it would seem to me that the people who are "collaberating" today with the establishment of the day are the unionists.

And it is also clear to me that they use exactly the same tactics in terms of the media as those they claim to abhor from the 1933 - 1945 period. The preblem for such tactics today is that modern means of communication make newspapers less influencial than they were then, and even radio and TV have become too fragmented for the establishment to be able to depend on it as they once did. However, as can be seen from this paper, and English so called "serious" papers, that doesn't stop them trying.

I think the thought for today for unionists should be : "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

28

Shark,

New York City 22/06/2007 12:18:13

Also convient that the Polish are forgetting that the Soviets murdered enough Polsih officers to make five layers of corpses. Although, that bit would have made matters that much worse, I suppose.

Why bring up the past to solve current problems? That's only showing that you have no way of backing up a modern argument with recent facts.

29

Gregor Addison,

Scotland 22/06/2007 13:08:45

#28, Shark

I agree with you that Mr Kaczynski's remarks suggest they have no reasonable argument. He should appologise for his remarks.

30

democracy,

Selkirkshire 22/06/2007 15:09:57

Quite the contrary, #12 Royster, it would have been the pro Union Scot that would have been the quislings if
AH had been successful in his attempts, as they by nature, salute not the Saltire but the butcher's apron !!

31

wayne bijlyeerheid,

22/06/2007 15:15:41

#30
Do we have a touch of sectarianism entering the discussion?
They could just as easily be members of Monklands Labour Party, that's "What else could explain such a hatred of their own country"

32

puskas,

22/06/2007 16:11:12

No 13. Mallory.

Very interesting...

The formation of the German Nazi Party and its military machine was financed from the West, and England in particular.

As my father once said ( Scots Guardsman ) If Hitlers timing had been different the plan was to have British troops in the Soviet Union fighting along side the Nazis.

Some of the unionist debaters on these sites don't realise how some of their opinions could relate to Facisicm ideals .

The Spanish Socialist Government (elected may I add ) fought against Franco and his fascist ideals who were backed by German war planes and military supplies.. North African countries, Morroco fought with Franco's forces.

Britain at that time used the Royal navy to put a blockade on to stop supplies getting through to the democratically elected.. As the Russian cargo ships were being blocked we had many of our countrymen fighting alongside the Government forces..
Many Scots were killed in Spain fighting for the socialist ideals many of us believe in.. Our Goverment ratted on them by siding with Franco and the German Nazi's who by trial and error practised with their war machine..

Maybe we as a nation were lucky in WW2. If things had been a little different just maybe the Russian forces when they went on the offensive would have stopped in London or Manchester or Glasgow..

The Peoples Palace in the Glasgow Green on occasions have a red socialist banner with the names of the Gorbals boys who lost their lifes in the battle for Madrid.. I believe they held out for 6 months against the German Stuka dive bombers and opposition forces..
Brave lads and all young.

Of course the International brigade had many nationals fighting along with the DEMOCRATIC ELECTED FORCES...

Iraq democracy ... Don't make me laugh....Bliars ..

Worth a wee thought ............

33

Andrew Allan,

22/06/2007 16:45:39

puskas., #33.
'The formation of the German Nazi Party and its military machine was financed from the West, and England in particular.'
I think you will find there was much money going to the Nazis from a group of money men from many western countries, Britain, America, Switzerland etc..., blood on many hands there.

34

wayne bijlyeerheid,

22/06/2007 17:07:03

The Nazi party was funded by the German military machine. Hitler was sent to spy on them in Sept. 1919, while he was a serving soldier and recommended that they should be supported financially.
Not denying they impressed some foreigners, but responsibility for the NSDAP, the National Sozialist Deutschland Arbeiter Partei, its formation, growth and rise to power rests solely on the conditions in Germany following WW1.
The sectarianism of the communists, and the supineness of the socialist leaders, both with armed wings, handed them an easy victory.

35

puskas,

East Kilbride 22/06/2007 17:44:41

No 34. Andrew Allan.

I agree.

Due to the communist party being strong and spreading throughout Europe..


No 35. Wayne.

I disagree.

The rise of the Nazi's came not just from within but financially driven from the Western powers who feared as I said above...
Financially driven by the West to down communism not only in Germany but to invade Russia.. Stalin realised this from the beginning and played his cards to suit his countries needs... Buying time you may say...

36

Allan (Glasgow),

22/06/2007 23:16:41

12 Royster,

"I'm sure Scottish nationalists would have collaberated with Hitler had he managed to conquer the UK"

Words almost fail me. You are without doubt a total and complete halfwit. I give up with people like you

37

Colin B,

Bearsden 23/06/2007 10:59:51

The Poles are clearly more interested in the truth than politically correct, don't offend anyone, re-write history, appeasement types in the Centre left of UK politics( eg Blair giving away fishing access, £Bns in rebate etc ). Lets just remember Germany started two world wars for territorial/economic gain and it was not just 50 or 60 hothead Nazis but in the late 30s and 40s Hitler was supported by Germans in their millions. Everyone shoudl be wary of another nations self interest and not do things on naive christian trust as Mr Blair does.


 

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