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Schools 'crumble as SNP fails to deliver funding system'



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Published Date: 14 November 2008
ANGER is growing at the way Scottish schoolchildren have been left in crumbling buildings caused by the SNP's failure to fund new projects.
Pupils at hundreds of schools across the country are having to learn in buildings with little or no heating, leaking roofs, deep cracks in walls and gaps between window sills.

Councils say they have not been able to press ahead with commissioning new schools for the past 19 months as the Scottish Government tries to set up its Scottish Futures Trust to fund major projects.

And the delay in setting up the SFT has also been pinpointed by the building industry as one of the major reasons that 20,000 jobs are likely to be lost in that sector before Christmas.

With 832 schools in Scotland designated as poor or bad, meaning they need replacing or refurbishment, the issue of failing to commission new projects has reached crisis point, according to councils.

However, the government insisted it would be able to commission new school projects from next year and councils could still approach it for funding under the old method.

Under the previous administration major projects were funded by private finance initiatives or public private partnerships, but the SNP has stated its opposition to this system.

Instead it has pursued the SFT as the way forward, but as yet this has not led to any new commissions, leaving schools needing repairs in limbo.

Neil Fletcher, the Liberal Democrat vice-chairman of the local government body Cosla, said: "The Scottish Government does say councils are able to come forward with new PPP projects and the form is still on the website, but the fact is that the current governing party has a stated aim of opposing PPPs.

''This means that councils will not take the risk of spending millions of pounds on a bid when there is a serious doubt of it being accepted. This has forced them to wait for the Scottish Futures Trust to start operating, but we don't expect that to happen until 2010-11 at the earliest, but more likely 2011-12."

One of Scotland's most senior council officers told The Scotsman: "It is an open secret that we are all queueing at the door desperately waiting to find out what is going on. We don't know the details of the Scottish Futures Trust, what the funding mechanism actually is and when it will start."

Ministers at a debate on the SFT yesterday said that they were keeping their promise of matching Labour's promised school building programme "brick for brick" but were told by opposition speakers that all of the projects currently under way had been commissioned under the Labour/Lib Dem Scottish Executive.

A spokesman for the First Minister said that 250 new schools would be built in the lifetime of this parliament, but was unable to say if he meant all of them would have been commissioned by the SNP.

The Lib Dem MSP Jeremy Purvis said of the SNP administration:

"They have got themselves into that zone where they genuinely believe that the schools they are opening were conceived, were built, designed and financed by them."

Meanwhile parents and staff at Scotland's 832 crumbling schools are becoming increasingly frustrated.

Mike Robb, deputy chairman of the parent council at Portobello High School in Edinburgh, said: "The problem is that a two-year delay is long enough in itself in a child's lifetime in a school, but in reality this is made worse because it takes six or seven years for a new school to be available from the point of conception."

The Wick High Action Group is led by Professor Iain Baikie, head of the parents' association. Prof Baikie, a former pupil at the school, said: "The state of the school is terrible. Until recently there were two toilet cubicles for 440 boys. There is also no soap in the toilets.

"Younger pupils pretend to be unwell so they can go to the loo at home. Some go the local supermarket to use the toilets.

"Some of the conditions are appalling. If anyone tells you that it is a category 'C' school, they are lying. It is definitely a 'D' rate school. It is sad because the children are the ones who are missing out."

At Lasswade High School in Midlothian, headteacher Albert Jaster said: "Our pupils are a great bunch and they just get on with it. But they deserve to be educated in a better building. We need a facility that is based on 21st-century designs, not those of the 1950s.

"We really need a new school, not just for the pupils, but for the parents, the staff and the community as a whole."

FACT BOX

THE Scottish Government is attempting to recruit a new chief executive for the Scottish Futures Trust on a six-figure salary.

It has already recruited a chairman, the former investment banker Sir Angus Grossart, and two non-executive directors.

The SFT is proposed to use a variation of private finance initiatives, called not-for-profit distribution (NPD). This means that the profit on a contract is set early. It is uncertain whether it will work out any cheaper than public private partnerships.

The SFT will then act as a commissioning body and a central point for expertise using this funding mechanism.

It has yet to commission any projects but John Swinney, the finance secretary, claims it will next year.

In the meantime he has announced that it will be involved in two projects in the south-east and north of Scotland.

Delay over SFT 'to cost 20,000 jobs'

THE delay in getting the Scottish Futures Trust ready will lead to the loss of 20,000 jobs in construction by Christmas, it has been claimed.

The Scottish Building Federation delivered the grim assessment for the industry in a briefing to MSPs this week.

And it was one of the central charges laid before the finance secretary, John Swinney, in a debate on the trust yesterday.

However, with the help of the Conservatives and Greens, the SNP staved off a bid by the Liberal Democrats and Labour to cancel the SFT and return to previous funding methods.

The federation said: "The Scottish construction industry is losing capacity at an alarming rate. Our members estimate that over 20,000 jobs will have been lost across the whole industry by Christmas."

One main cause of the loss of work was the delay in public procurement projects caused by the wait for the SFT, it added.

Labour finance spokesman David Whitton said: "If the SFT is not yet ready then the Scottish Government should recognise the crisis affecting industry and be bold by allowing councils and health boards to use existing PFI models to bring new schools and hospitals forward now."

But Mr Swinney insisted that the government was bringing forward new projects totalling £3.5 billion this financial year.

Tory finance spokesman Derek Brownlee accused the SNP, Labour and the Lib Dems of not acting in taxpayers' interest. He said: "The only issue should be developing best value for taxpayers."

Labour leader Iain Gray pointed out that every school opening attended recently by Fiona Hyslop, the education secretary, was for a school commissioned by the previous Labour/Lib Dem Scottish Executive.

"What is Ms Hyslop going to do when she runs out of Labour schools to open?" he asked.

He asked when the Scottish Government was going to commission any new schools.

But First Minister Alex Salmond said that since May last year there had been 11 projects signed off involving 55 schools planned for 30,000

Heating bills and leaking roof eat into the budget

NAME: Lasswade High School

COUNCIL AREA: Midlothian

PROBLEMS: Roofing consistently leaks, with water spilling into the sports centre and technology and science areas. Maintaining the roof and heating costs the school £30,000 to £40,000 per year more than the standard £25,000 maintenance budget.

The long horizontal shape of the school means it takes the building a long time to warm up. Children sit cold in classrooms on one side of the school while the other end is warm.

The school recently obtained a new cafeteria and toilet facilities, but Albert Jaster, the headteacher, says the new areas just illustrate the gulf in the facilities.

REASON FOR DELAY: A Midlothian Council spokesman said: "We are waiting for the details of the Scottish Futures Trust."

Lack of sports facilities and a too small dining hall

NAME: Mearns Academy, Laurencekirk

COUNCIL AREA: Aberdeenshire

PROBLEMS: One of four priority schools in the area, it is overcrowded, has toilets designed for primary school children, lacks sports facilities and the dining hall is too small.

Changing rooms only have capacity for 30 children. The small dining hall means that 300 children leave the school at lunch time which has raised safety concerns. The school needs to be replaced with the cost estimated at £30 million.

REASON FOR DELAY: A spokesman for Aberdeenshire Council said: "The problem is the same as it was last year.

"We cannot proceed with any of these school projects until we know what is happening with the Scottish Futures Trust. We cannot put forward any PPP projects as things stand."

Broken boilers and toilet trouble

NAME: Wick High School

COUNCIL AREA: Highlands

PROBLEMS: The boiler regularly breaks down, creating heating problems throughout the school. Cracked pipes make classrooms unusable, with water spilling in, and broken windowsills let cold air in during the winter months.

The stairwells and walls are covered in deep cracks, which parents and staff alike find deeply concerning.

There are virtually no social spaces for the children to congregate in. The dining room holds about 100 people, but with a population of 840 pupils it is not big enough.

Some children eat their lunch sitting on the floor in nearby hallways, unable to find a seat in the canteen.

The school's corridors are too narrow and are not big enough to accommodate the flow of traffic as the pupils move between lessons.

The swimming pool had some sharp tiles which forced its closure.

There are also major problems with the toilets.

REASON FOR DELAY: Wick High School's rector, Alister Traill, said: "Funding of £1 million was promised to the school a number of years ago to improve facilities. The money was previously allocated but is tied up in a backlog. The Scottish Futures Trust has left schools waiting. I hope that funding becomes available from the government."

Pupils failed by unusable lifts and floods

NAME: Portobello High School

COUNCIL AREA: Edinburgh

PROBLEMS: The school has a 1960s eight-storey tower block where the lifts regularly break down. One is now almost unusable, and if the second lift goes it will mean the school may have to be shut.

The heating system regularly fails. The power system is also in danger of failing. In the past, school inspectors have said that poor heating and ventilation were affecting the performance of students.

In May this year, police were called and hundreds of pupils were sent home as the school was plagued by floods.

Parents blamed the crumbling buildings for contributing to the damage. At the time, the head boy, Declan Slaven, described going to school there like "learning in a prison".

REASON FOR DELAY: Mike Robb, the deputy chairman of the Parent Council, said: "The school was due to be part of the next wave of PPP projects commissioned last year, but when the SNP came in the project seemed to go into limbo."pupils.


The full article contains 1936 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 13 November 2008 11:38 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish National Party
 
1

Steve,

Bo'ness 14/11/2008 00:00:55
Who cares who commissioned the new schools?
Another day, another Labour smear presented as news.
2

TommyKaye,

UK 14/11/2008 00:18:14
Growing up in Edinburgh I used to think that people who bought and read the Scotsman were serious and educated people - Now 35 years on they may as well have been buying the Beano or The Dandy.

Every day is like a battle between the Daily Record and the Scotsman to see who can reach the Labour or ga sm climax first and to be honest it is difficut to tell them apart.

Are the papers actually proofread in Labour HQ first before going to print.

Labour 50+ years in power in Scotland the SNP 1+ years in power and attacked every day.

The poverty in Scotland can be directly linked to being governed by Labour while their MP's sucked out as much as they could for themselves - Glasgow East MP for example.

3

,

14/11/2008 00:20:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
4

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 14/11/2008 00:26:07


You see this is the point!

More the interest in, 'ridiculous nonsenses', such as stopping the under 21s, from purchasing the 'Booze'!

More the interest, in 'ridiculous nonsenses', such as telling shop keepers, they will have to hide the cigarette's, under the counter!

The lists go on and on, while our Children Suffer!

If one could forget the, 'ridiculous nonsenses' one would 'win votes' and have the intelligence to make Scotland truly Independent.

Unfortunately for us, this will never happen, when the 'ridiculous' is made more 'ridiculous' with stupid proposal's of legislations, rather than dealing with important issues to make us,...
...'Proud of Scotland'!


5

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 14/11/2008 00:28:46


NO WONDER! GLENROTHES WAS LOST!!

It did not take 'Einstein' to see that one coming!


6

PC Caledonia,

14/11/2008 00:41:19
The Barclay brothers bailed out when it became clear the management were incapable of keeping in touch with the readership.

Digital publishing is probably the future but JP is not getting the model right.

Dwindling print sales and anarchic Comment boards are not a recipe for success.
7

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 14/11/2008 00:41:28

#2,

"SNP 1+ years in power and attacked every day."

They will get attacked, "every day" until the 'nonsenses' stop

Why expect anything more?

Fail! It is quite evident, why we Fail!





8

Rasco,

14/11/2008 00:43:33
All these problems in schools have happened in the last 18 months????,regarding Wick High School it has been in a run down state for a very long time so its a bit hypocritical of Lab/Lib to blame the SNP for the state its in.
9

,

14/11/2008 00:52:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
10

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 14/11/2008 00:55:45



From this papers 'Health Page' today!

"SNP boost as study claims higher taxes mean fewer drink deaths"

More 'ridiculous nonsenses'! People do not like being told how to live, and be controlled!

Vote 'SNP', Vote for a 'Bull in a China Shop'

While our Children Suffer!

Who wants to live in a Scotland like that?, not many, hence,...

"SNP 1+ years in power and attacked every day."
Now! does it take,...'Rocket Science' to see that?

I Think Not!



11

qohldr,

14/11/2008 01:07:16
These problems with the school buildings may have been inherited by the SNP.
The problem lies in the fact that any project that had not commenced under PPP/PFI when the SNP took power were cancelled.
If projects had been allowed to go ahead under PPP/PFI most of the repairs would have been finished by now.
The SNP promised to match Labour brick for brick under SFT but not one brick has been matched, SFT has not even been introduced yet.
The worsening state of these schools inherited by the SNP since they took power lies squarely on their shoulders as they cancelled all projects and have done nothing to rectify the problems themselves.
12

Billiam Wallace,

14/11/2008 01:09:09
#13 Well Charles, you are certainly pretty peeved about the SNP but is that because of the issues or because you are a trough snuffler yourself? (MSP?, MP?, cooncillor, or common or garden serf?) After all, posters above have pointed out New Liebore's many failings on these issues during their time in power, were you protesting then too? I think not. I haven't voted SNP yet, (wait til the GE though), but I can see what they have managed to accomplish, despite the best efforts of the New Liebore establishment to scupper them. Perhaps if Scotland were given the money that it is owed, we could afford new schools. Why don't you petition your pals in the PARTY to realease the funds? (Oh, that's right, they've frittered the money away on themselves and enriching their chums in big business).
13

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 14/11/2008 01:12:05

Nobody in the SNP is promising to wave a magic wand and correct everything at once .

We have 300 years of Unionist neglect to be dealt with in all areas so one bit at a time is all that is possible .

IF YOU WANT THE MAGIC WAND APPROACH GIVE US THE OIL AND WHISKEY REVENUES currently being stolen by the UK from Scotland AND THATS JUST A START

14

Guga II,

Rockall 14/11/2008 01:13:36
Here we go again, another New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party (North British Branch) press release by David MadDog.

The SNP have been in power for 18 months. The crumbling schools, on the other hand, did not suddenly start crumbling 18 months ago. What were the Sleaze and Corruption Party doing for the crumbling schools before they were voted out? In fact, what were the Sleaze and Corruption Party doing for Scottish schools before devolution? Answer, bu66er all.

Maybe it's time the Hootsmon started employing journalists, rather than Labour Party placemen.
15

Edward,

14/11/2008 01:25:22
Its unfortunate that these two 'journalists' who seem to lik providing Labour with free PR (then is it really free?)failed toi mention that Labour were in power for 10 years and kept promising to do something about the schools. The SNP have been in power since LAST year and get attacked because there not working fast enough to do something about the schools, now thats rich!
16

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 14/11/2008 01:27:43


Billiam Wallace ~15,

The SNP were voted in, to make a better Scotland to live in!,..am I correct?

It does NOT matter the previous Histories of the Labour Party, but then one always wants to blame others, on ones 'Failures'!

Facts ARE Facts!, the SNP's thoughts of 'Grandeur' and 'Fame' costantly lead them away from the,..

'Real Issues at Hand'!

"Real Issues" being our "Schools" and the likes!

And not one of, "Ridiculous Nonsense" to Stop a 21year old, with a good job, mortgage, married with children, and wife, who 'Just had a Baby', from going out to purchase a 'Bottle of Wine' to celebrate!

THE WORD,..'MUPPETS', Come to mind!


Loose Public Popularity? NO-WONDER!


17

Breezy,

Argyll 14/11/2008 01:35:14
Any schools that were built under the Labour administration were built under P.F.I.
Our grandchildren will still be paying for these long after we've gone, and most probably long after they've been demolished.
18

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 14/11/2008 01:39:07


Marky Bhoy ~16,

"WHISKEY REVENUES"


Yer Havvin a Laugh!!!

Like HBOS, this WILL be History soon!, it will be,..

"Made in China"!

There is NO SCOTLAND ANYMORE! we let everyone take it, from,..'Under Our Nose'!

BURN YOUR KILTS!

AND FLY THE 'POLISH FLAG' From Edinburgh Castle, more the likes!

If we will NOT appreciate our Country, Others WILL!

My admiration is for them, and the best of luck to them!

While the best our 'Leader' can offer is,,

"Ban The Booze", "Ban The Cigarettes"!!


19

Edward,

14/11/2008 01:40:14
#20 Charlie
Can you state here and now, just how many schools were built within the first 18 months of Labour coming to power in Holyrood in 1999? or before that under Tony Blair from London upto 1999? Take your time, no rush
I will give you a clue, it was under 10, actually under 5
If your still having a problem think of the figure that comes before 1
20

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 14/11/2008 01:45:00



Voted in! and now we see the SNP can only deal with,..

..Two Subject Matters, Drinking and Smoking!

LOST ALL RESPECT? 'OF-COURSE', THEY DO!!

21

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 14/11/2008 01:49:50

Edward ~23.

I see your point, but don't blame others, fact of the matter IS!, If 'Salmond' had any 'Guts' he could,..

...'Move Mountains' this is why He was elected, is it not!?

He has failed us all!,..'Pure and Simple'!

22

Billiam Wallace,

14/11/2008 02:44:55
Charles, Charles, I don't want to appear to be insulting you but you have all the traits of a pro-Labour, unionist troll. You completely ignore any attempt at debate and simply rant and rant your illogical nonsense. The issues of alcohol and tobacco abuse are not minor matters in Scotland, they are a blight on our society and should have been addressed long since. I doubt that there are many 21 year olds with a profile as you describe and if there were, they would be able to have a relative obtain wine for such a special occasion. The fact remains that when the SNP took control at Holyrood, they never imagined that they would be denied the funding they required to carry out their manifesto pledges. If New Liebore had similar constraints placed upon them, they ouldn't have been able to mount an illegal war in Iraq, bail out the banks or otherwise waste OUR money.

Please stop ranting and tell us what the benefit of the union and New Lieboring have been over the past ten years of misrule, mismanagement and trough snuffling.
23

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 14/11/2008 02:53:53


Also!! Comment all you want!, and ignore the 'Headline',....

...."Schools 'crumble as SNP fails to deliver funding system"

Blaming 'Labour' IS NO OPTION!, The Subject matter is clear!!!..

"SNP fails"!! This IS Fact, and NOT Fiction!

And with most of the above,..comments wanting to ignore this fact, is it of,...'Any Wonder' Labour do well! and 'Win Votes'!

'Stupidity'! has no place in 'Politics', likewise this is why, we do not have a,...


'Independent Scotland'!,,,,'FULL-STOP'!!




24

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 14/11/2008 03:04:13


Billiam Wallace ~26,

Contrary to what you say!,...

"I doubt that there are many 21 year olds with a profile as you describe"

I think we have many 21year olds in this position today, as I was!

WHY!, Like the "SNP" Do you want to dismiss this 'Fact'?



25

Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 14/11/2008 04:14:07
Scotland used to be all about education - then came the socialists...

Aren't we ALL sick tae the back teeth of nae government but slogans - first the red n' yellow socialists and now the Gnat socialists.

Slogans, slogans, slogans. (And that's not even a good slogan!)

Away an mend a school for heavens sake!
26

Bluevoice,

Dubai U.A,E. 14/11/2008 04:16:49
#2 made sense, whereas, this head-line did not.

WHO built Porty High, anyway? This school was built in my lifetime and I am not ancient. Why is a building which is less than 40 years old crumbling???!!!

27

frank mcbride,

lusitania 14/11/2008 04:17:45
#2, Col. B.

PPP/PFI was nothing to do with keeping spending off the account sheet: it was to do with keeping the "subjects" in their place.

Keep the punters paying high taxes while pretending to look after the less well-off - means test (tax credits, supplemented old-age pensions etc.).

The problems associated with infrastructure in Scotland, and indeed the rump of the UK, date back at least 50yrs; one could say, during the hegenomy of the Unionist Alliance.

The Unionist apologists will forever say that, outwith the Union, Scotland would be a poorer place.

I would say that history shows that Scotland in the Union is a poorer place.
28

frank mcbride,

lusitania 14/11/2008 04:23:37
#30, Stephen.

When you waken up to the nightmare maybe, just maybe, you will waken to the light that Capitalism is not the answer.

Or perhaps you're a Unionist politician?
29

Pilrig.,

Livingston 14/11/2008 05:43:05
30 - a tory
30

calum,

14/11/2008 06:25:06
Politicians would rather squander our money on a needless tram system while the rest of Scotland is falling about our ears.
31

Nebulous,

Aberdeen 14/11/2008 06:39:29
#14

Projects that had not commenced were not cancelled. Aberdeen is currently spending over £100 million on schools, including several new ones and these were signed off under the current administration.

Also did you read the article? Since May last year 11 projects totalling 55 schools have been signed off.
32

steve 1511,

aberdeen 14/11/2008 06:41:24
the snp must not adopt the liebour sleaze and corruption partys method of building on the tick and hide the debts from the voters until next year,this is one of the reasons britain is bankrupt and works out at over 30 times the original cost to be paid back over 30 years .
WE ARE DOOMED WITH BROON ,DOOMED
33

Nebulous,

Aberdeen 14/11/2008 06:42:16
Just changing tack slightly - Gordon Brown has announced a big school building programme in England to tackle recession- does anyone know the detail of how it will be funded? Will it generate a Barnett consequential?

If not, surely the real story is yet again one of Labour starving Scotland of funds?
34

possum,

West Australia 14/11/2008 07:00:44
Portobello High was a crumbling mess when I was there in the late 70's early 80's but nothing was done then. Winter we had to just layer more clothes on and sometimes the teacher would have a bar heater in the class room. Summer, if the windows could open then they were. Seems to me it has just been poorly maintained and managed to get into - what the same state it was when I was there?
35

The Online Scot,

.. not The Herald !! 14/11/2008 07:01:40
The SNP should stick to their guns here, PPP/PFI is a goner, the debt that it produces is simply too great.

These companies that have hitherto laped up the obscene profits from PFI will now no longer be in a position to do so.

With a global financial crisis and Brown's compounding of the same through his mishandling of the economy now is the time to look for best return for money.

Rushing headlong back into the PFI mess introduced by Labour is not a long term solution for anything. Let's hope the Scottish government take their time and do not shackle future Scots with the burden of debt that Labour would have us do.
36

drunken proffet,

Tassy 14/11/2008 07:15:37
You could try a different approach. If all the pupils can read, write and count by the time they are eleven, you get the roof leaks fixed. If a high percentage of the pupils finish year ten, a coat of paint, new floor coverings and free condoms. Excellence in year twelve gets the headmaster and teachers new cars. Just an idea.
37

Dave,

Western Isles 14/11/2008 07:45:23
Yes yes. Heard all this before. It's the same funding that Labour didn't deliver either. Different party, same undelivered promise - nothing new.

Remember, SNP have the same funding pot as Labour did and are now begining to realise that Labour was more concerned with dishing out benefits to the junkies to keep votes than investing into Scotland (plus the odd backhander fae Westminster to keep us sweet).

Catch 22.
38

tassiestag,

rosebery 14/11/2008 07:54:32
charles linskaill.........are you the one that sells viagra online?............check it out google up charles linskaill
39

Gdgy,

dndy 14/11/2008 08:12:18
Where are the new schools?

The SNP mantra....we can't be held responsible if we do nothing
The delay is probably due to having to explain the new funding system to John Swinney.....this could take years......
40

pressure,

Scotland 14/11/2008 08:13:21
SHAME!

but don't say we were not warned. they wouldn't right off all student debt, they wouldn't give every home owner 2k to buy a house, and they woudln't be able to build 50 new schools every year with sine daft SFT policy.

For those above who say this is some Labour smear - if you read it carefully - it is actually a lib dem smear. But when did the truth mater to a cybernat.
41

tartan army 2222,

14/11/2008 08:17:30
Maybe if Labour had concentrated on replacing our crumbling schools, rather than perfectly good rural ones then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Furthermore, it says that the SNP are to replace them within the life of this parliament - 2.5 years left methinks.
42

Boy Wonder,

14/11/2008 08:24:03
#45 ... What's this?? I googled Our Chuckles name and there it was ... are you doing this to fund private IVF,Chuckles?? How penurious are you??

Should've stayed at school back in the 30s, mate. Crumbling or not!
43

gus1940,

Edinburgh 14/11/2008 08:27:17
That's right - it's all The SNP's fault.

It's only 18 months since they were elected and the schools have started to crumble since that date.

I don't suppose it's anything to so with previous administrations of both Labour and Tories and the jerry building and lack of maintenance over many years by their politicians and incompetent officials.

Take Portobello School for example - built about 40 odd years ago but now considered unfit for use - WHY?

Was it intended to last for such a short time?

If so - WHY?

If not - either the design was faulty, the construction quality was rubbish or the maintenance was inadequate or lacking over the years.

How can this be the fault of an administration elected only 18 months ago?

If the so-called journalists on The Scotsman stopped accepting the c--p emanating from The Labour Party and thought about things before repeating the Labour Lies and Distortion they may realise that blaming The SNP for the state of our schools is unjustified and in fact barefaced hardline unionist propaganda.

Just how naive do you think Scotsman readers are? - they don't all live in Glenrothes.
44

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 14/11/2008 08:29:23
SNP = all mouth and no trousers.

Role on INDEPENDENCE then SNP can close all the schools and rely instead on missionaries from Malawi.

Vote SNP. You know it makes (non)sense.
45

,

14/11/2008 08:38:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
46

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 14/11/2008 08:45:13
832 schools are crumbling !
All started to crumble since May 2007 ?
The SNP inherited a mess from 60 years of Labour domination of local authority with so called ring fenced allocation of funding in education.
47

Queen D,

Glasgow 14/11/2008 08:46:46
50 years of Labour and they have the cheek to attack the SNP building programme after 18 months in power.

Congratulations to Nicola Sturgeon for winning Politician of the Year, not that the Scotsman newspaper appears to have noticed.
48

Dave,

14/11/2008 08:48:46
Rules

Steady now. Labour didn't do anything in the last 10 years of power, so why would you think the SNP would magic new schools in thier incredibly short tenureship?

Labours answer to this? PPFI. Now that was very successful, wasn't it?
49

Dave,

Western Isles 14/11/2008 08:50:20
british and proud

I have three jobs at present, 2 pensions and private savings and I'm not an MP/MSP or any other political and/or publically employed type (anymore - in the forces).

Got a problem with me?
50

Vincent-W,

14/11/2008 09:01:48
Dave,

Actually it was - in my locale we had been promised a new PS for decades. PFI gave us a fantastic new school.

I agree there were serious flaws in the PFI system, but they are being exaggerated for political effect, at least PFI provided some momentum. Scottish councils could not or would not do anything for years for lack of capital.

This momentum is being lost - the SFT or other funding system needs to be invoked as soon as possible. Councils nee to look at which PFI projects have been delivered well and learn how those projects were run and emulate the good practices.

One of the big problems with PFI is attitude. Two years on my new PS looks better than it did when it was built - why? Because our teachers, kids, parents, jannies and other users are proud of the school and look after it and improve it. Ten miles down the road a PFI school built at the same time looks tatty and dirty - NOT the fault of PFI - but IS the fault of ungrateful, sloppy, lazy users.
51

nostress,

grangemouth 14/11/2008 09:12:56
Yet more anti-SNP propaganda masquerading as journalism from this blatt.

There has been underinvestment in Scotland's infrastructure since World War II - who've been in charge for that length of time? Why the unionists of course.

Now the SNP minority government, in "power" for a mere 18 months, saddled with an unneccessary waste of valuable resources by the unionists who voted in the Edinburgh tram line, and coping with the lowest financial settlement from a bitter London Labour government, is doing its utmost with one hand tied behind its back, to make sure Scotland's major projects are properly funded and not left to our children and their children to pay for.

What happens? Instead of trying to work with the SNP on this for the good of the country, all the unionist parties, out of spite and bitterness, do their utmost to block everything. They oppose purely for cheap political reasons and have nothing constructive to bring to the governance of Scotland. Shame on them all!
And shame on Scotland's media, who are complicit in this. Is there any other country in the world which suffers from so much hatred from within?

52

qohldr,

14/11/2008 09:17:07
#36
These 11 projects that have been signed off (IE completed) were commissioned under the last administration.
All projects that were in the pipeline to be funded under PPP/PFI but had not been signed up to were cancelled.
These schools that the SNP inherited have continued to deteriorate, they are in a worse state now than they were 18 months ago.
This administration has not signed up to(commissioned) any new work on these school.
No one can deny the SNP inherited the problem but at the same time no one can deny that the problem is worsening as the SNP has done nothing to rectify the problem either.


53

Vincent-W,

14/11/2008 09:18:41
ploughmans lunch,

Let's get a bit of balance.

The Tories had an ideological avoidance of public spending; it can be argued that this was needed at the time because councils needed a reality check on how they spent our money. However it went too far and stopped essential spending too.

Labour had no mechanism for raising the necessary capital until PFI. PFI provided the kick-start needed but has faults. For one the infrastructure wasn't there - councils and companies were simply not geared up and competent to deal with going from 0 - 60 in four seconds.

The SNP have recognized this but has been slow to implement their alternative - there's a danger of the baby being thrown out with the bathwater.

I wish we could get away from this stupid Nat/Unionist politicking in this country and concentrate more on improving the lives of our fellow citizens. This polarization is counterproductive and pointless.


As with Guga - why are you insulting the very people who you want to vote for your cause? It is precisely because of your kind of silly, belligerent and bombastic statements that your candidate’s message was not listened to!
54

salmondella,

UK 14/11/2008 09:19:28
The apologists for the SNP are once again in denial over the fact that their beloved party is failing the people of Scotland " Its all a Labour conspiracy" they shout. Waken up you NATS, the schools you are charged with looking after are crumbling, your party is crumbling and your policies are crumbling - Stop blaming the press and everone else and get your leaders into line!
55

Guy Wersh,

Ekky Byde 14/11/2008 09:22:32
Vincent:
"I agree there were serious flaws in the PFI system, but they are being exaggerated for political effect, at least PFI provided some momentum. Scottish councils could not or would not do anything for years for lack of capital."

So would you have a school at ANY price? How was PFI exaggerated? Is it not a one for the price of three after all?

Labour allowed schools and hospitals to deteriorate for years just so that they could push PFI through as the only deal on the table and it was just incidental that the profits generated were absolutely enormous for the private companies.
56

Vincent-W,

14/11/2008 09:28:48
Guy Wersh,

I view your comment as silly politicking - it took years for the PFI concept to come to the table, there was no deliberate delay. Labour did not deliberately allow buildings to deteriorate - that's plain rubbish.

Where does your figure of three times cost come from? What I know is that I personally went up to my kids old school at weekends with my toolkit to make the hut-classrooms watertight for Monday school - cost the taxpayer nothing!

A company I know which is involved heavily in PFI generates approximately 10% PoT - that's not excessive.
57

sonofhamish,

edinburgh 14/11/2008 09:33:25
Yes the schools were problematic under Labour but they were being dealt with, albeit slowly. What is happening now is essentially NOTHING for 18 mos, with probably another 18 mos of nothing to go.

Its certain that in that period under the old system some work would've been done and quite a few schools built or at least refurbed.

Hopefully now the SNP have realised how easy being in opposition and promising the earth is. Delivering is a lot harder...

58

Arn av Gothia,

Gothia 14/11/2008 09:36:06
# 10 Exactly Wick High School has been in a sad state since the 1970s Local Labour councillors and propective MSPs had their kids there at that time and said or did nothing about .Now suddenly its the SNPs fault ...
59

Calum10,

14/11/2008 09:38:09
Just more scaremongering Unionist propaganda by the Hootsmon.

Take a good look at the PFI schools from the view of official reports.

1. PFI schools represent shoddy workmanship at rip off prices.

2. PFI schools are costly to run and maintain.

3. PFI schools don't meet the requirements of the pupils, teachers and parents.

4. PFI schools demotivate pupils and teachers due to poor design and the use of poor materials.

5. PFI schools represent such poor value for money that it directly impinges on health and safety.

PFI and PPP is dead because in 2009 all PFI and PPP projects will have to be put on the UK government's balance sheet.

...and here is the clincher, even Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling are seriously looking at copying SNP plans for introducing a whole raft of Not-For-Profit models including an UK version of the Scottish Futures Trust.

Here you have it folks Labour are to introduce their own equivalent British Futures Trust to build schools and hospitals in England and Wales.
60

Paul Spencer,

Glasgow 14/11/2008 09:38:21
Couldnt agree more about the fact that previous tory/labour administrations allowed the school estates to deterioate. My children went to a Grade Two listed victorian school round the corner from us, it had an increased school role, excellent HMI reports and is a v happy school.

A week before the Scottish Election, it was decided that the building was unsafe and the children were decanted to a portakabin site for the new school year. (incidently the school was so unsafe it was used as a polling station on Election Day!!!!). Reports obtained from Glasgow city council show that they were aware of the problem for 11 years and in that time spent £3000 to address the problem. My youngest is still at the portakabin school and is quite happy, at a cost to council tax payers of £750,000 pa as opposed to £250,000pa at the original site. Meantime we the parents were told we were to be consulted on the future of the school, well in the last 18 months we have heard.................. nothing. There is a rumour that it is going to cost £9 million to fix the school, or £14 million to build a new one....... but these are all rumours.
Now the funding for this will come from either SFT or some other bastardised form of PFI. However there is a local primary school some 3 miles away with a 50% capacity so it's not beyond the wit of cynical parents that Glasgow City Council will blame the SNP administration and put our kids some 3 miles away, meaning that working parents will have their days disrupted even more as they have to ferry their kids along busy roads as opposed to walking to school.
Its about time councils started listening and not pandering to their special interest groups and got on with delivering the services that they say they will.
61

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 14/11/2008 09:47:40
No capital projects can start at the moment as the Scottish Government is waiting on a response from the UK Treasury as to what will happen with the existing PPP/PFI projects when they go on the books in April '09.
If the Scottish Government has to provide the necessary financial guarantee for these projects then there will be precious little investment over the next few years.
Hamstring the Scottish Government and then let loose press releases blaming them for not dealing with the problem.
Gordon said "I will do whatever is necessary to maintain the union."
62

Alan B,

14/11/2008 09:47:44
It is silly to say schools are crumbling due to the snp. If schools are crumbling it is becuase of what they inherited. Schools do not start crumbling in just over a year.

There is also the issue that the scottish parliament was granted under brown the lowest ever increase in the scottish budget since the snp has been elected. As such the only way for future capital expenditure like this given the refusal of the labour government in wesmtinster to allow the scottish government to borrow is to use tools like pfi which effectively defer payment to others in the future.

Labour did in their time have a huge program of capital expenditure for schools etc but it was not paid for. It was simply paid by mortgaging the country to the hilt so that future generations will be paying of that debt.

So we have got to consider if one government spend massively by mortgaging the country to the hilt for building programs when do we say we should pay off that debt before engaging in even more spending and debt.

It is actually very difficult and we really need the parties to stop playing games.

The real reason that building are crumbling is either they have not been maintained or the orginal building was off poor quality. I have a house built about 100 yrs ago and it is not crumbling so why is a school or hospital built in the 60/70s. Also some of the replacements under labour were not replacing crumbling buildings but to create a new building to replace old classical buildings of better quality. As such if their is crumbling buildings why were they not replaced rather than good but old fashioned buildings.

So the real problem with crumbling building is poor builds, poor maintenance and the fact the uk economy has been so poor for along time. for instance in the 70s britain was virtually bankrupt. As such it is no surprise that maintenance was not good. In the 80s there was mass unemployment as the mess of the economy inherited from decades of decline was dealt with
63

Marian,

14/11/2008 09:47:58
What we are seeing after 50 years of municipal socialism being in power in Scotland, is the legacy of their complete neglect by underfunding, of proper maintenance of our public buildings and playing field facilities. This is because funds were routinely diverted into political projects instead of being spent on basic services.

New Labour's answer to this was the discredited PPP which they claimes was better than its discredited Tory predecessor PFI, but was in fact the same thing.

Someone once put it that paying by PFI is like putting the costs of renewing our public buildings on to a credit card.

Those who have worked with it say its worse than that.

Fact is that PFI is only popular with the developers and builders who see very rich profits from being involved with it.

New Labour are only "greetin" because the SNP have come up with a better way.

64

Dave,

14/11/2008 09:48:39
Vincent

Fair enough if you think it's value for money. Here's the rub though with PFI.

Under the current financial climate, what private company will invest into a PFI? This would be regardless of whatever political party is in power.
65

Alan B,

14/11/2008 09:48:48
...in a very painful manner. As such money went to welfare and not building programs and maintenance. We then had another recession in the early 90s as a result of mismanaging the stock market crash of the late 80s and the subsequent inflation.

It is only realy over the last 15 yrs that the economy has been robust enough to start sorting out the lack of maintencance and poor building qualities of the 60s. Although building practises to day seem pretty poor also.

The only problem is over the last decade while big investment has been made it is alll on the never never. And it was based on an economy built on sand as we see Brown economic incompetence of running an economy on debt fall like a pack of cards.

66

highlander2008,

Thurso 14/11/2008 09:49:13
No money for Wick High but council have given the go ahead to build 2 Gaelic Primaries!! Maybe Wick needs to go GAELIC!!!!!!!!!!
67

Calum10,

14/11/2008 09:49:23
#71 sm753

PFI is dead, get used to it.
68

Vincent-W,

14/11/2008 09:49:46
Calum10,

1. My PFI school represent excellent workmanship and quality.

2. My PFI school is well run, with motivated and hardworking jannies.

3. My PFI school meets or exceeds every requirement placed on it by the pupils, teachers and parents. (I'm sitting here with a post occupancy report)

4. My PFI school motivate pupils and teachers as they were directly involved in the design and materials.

5. My PFI school represent a major improvement in the health and safety compared to the old school.

PFI and PPP is dead because in 2009 all PFI and PPP projects will have to be put on the UK government's balance sheet.

...and here is the clincher, the BSF project is up running and flying in England and currently keeping hundreds of Scots in jobs that would have been lost with the demise of PFI in Scotland.

There were serious mistakes with PFI but get a bit of balance will you?
69

Warden An' All, Reborn,

14/11/2008 09:52:07
Alex Salmond and his nats see things different than the majority us, when we buy into a service such as supermarkets we like to know they can deliver. Salmond needs to learn a thing or two from the supermarkets about how to deliver what they promise.
70

Vincent-W,

14/11/2008 09:54:52
AlanB -

Thank you for making some excellent points reminding us how poor the UK was until recent times. People's memories are very short.

Being in Government is a lot harder than it looks irrespective of your political hue. That's why it's not always a good idea to go OTT when criticising other administrations - They were children of their times, often piddling with the apparatus they had available at the time.
71

noswod,

Honestas 14/11/2008 10:01:55
Vote SNP get Thatcher Tory cuts. The chances of the Scottish Future Trust getting going in this financial environment are low to very weak. Who is going to buy a Scottish (Iceland) Public Authority Bond ? The two former co-operative banks HBOS and RBS that could have come up with the cash are bust and now controlled by Mandleson so no chance. The SNP displayed its complete naviety about how UK financing for capital spend works in trying to change it it has put back schemes that are desperately needed and may never get built now. Cancelling the building of a new Waverley railway interchange at Edinburgh Airport, trying to stymie the rebuilding of the Borders Railway, replacing PFI with the Scottish Futures Trust. It is common knowledge that the PFI is a rip off but if it is the only way of getting the capital to build Schools Hospitals etc you take. The elite St Andrews and RBS trained economists time would have been better placed in negotiating tough new PFI deals with his former banker friends than trying to invent the wheel with a new form of funding that the UK Govt i.e Mandleson will ban. To veto the first substainial rebuilding of a Railway Line in the UK and to cancell the first planned manline railway interchange at a UK airport beggers believe. The Borders had been sufferring a slow death since the line was ripped up in this depression there is there any hope ? These two building projects would have been starting just about now, guess what in the middle of a recession, very convienent. This dogmatism is carried forward into the propsals for the Local Income Tax which loses Scotland £400m worth of funding and is political madness because anybody with a middleclass income will pay more and will vote Labour vey much shades of Mrs Thatcher. Pragmatism and a feel for what is in the interests of teh people of Scotland is whats needed. 2 years have been lost by the SNP by going down dogmatic political philosopy of we can take on the British Govt and win we'll do it
72

Nikostratos,,

14/11/2008 10:02:16
#80

It isn't just the schools that are 'Crumbling' The snps ability to govern is falling fast. And their predictable and futile response is everybody is lying unfortunately they are the Self proclaimed Government of Scotland and the people have the proper expectation that what the Government of Scotland promised they should deliver.
73

Alan B,

14/11/2008 10:09:17
#Vincent-W

I am not against pfi in principle but do have worries about one government committing future governments to expenditure which it would not otherwise make. By effectively committing the country to enough pfi projects which have to be paid for by future governments make high public spending irreversable. But there is a balance.

I would like the terms of pfi projects to be publicly available as i simple do not agree with hiding the figures as part of commercial confidentiality.

We have to stop this political party football. Labour slag the tories for using pfi. The labour in power do much the same. The snp slate labour for the same practice and sft will be pretty similar to pfi anyway (unless the uk government allow the scottish government is issue bonds ie government debt).

There is also the issue about economics. Labour spent alot on capital expenditure programs funded by pfi in economic boom times. It is economically better to carry out this work when the economy is going into a downturn, both from a cost and job point of view. Although that has to be balanced with waiting for schools and hospitals to be built until the boom ends and slump hits. But we have the converse sitation now. We have a slump but the cupboard is bare as we have spent far too much money in the good times.
74

G,

dndy 14/11/2008 10:11:26
The SNPites say this story is a Labour/Lib Dem/tory/green things from the planet Zharg smear....

That doesn't change the fact that the SNP haven't even worked out how they are going to replace the PFI scheme, let alone implement their scheme...so they DO NOTHING.....they cannot blame their inactivity on anyone else!!
75

danielrober,

14/11/2008 10:13:09
I was worked in a bar, the beer was good, the wine was good enough and the food absolutely 'normal'. The owner was making a fortune or to be more exact another fortune. I asked him what the secret of his success was - he said 'poor time keeping'.

His food was always late, always. So people drank another pint. The idea though was not to make people drunk, other wise they could not drive to his pub. The idea was for them to enjoy their meals.

Keeping people waiting not did not only make them angry, it made them grateful when the food arrived. The quantities were suitable to the time scale of a last minute rushed lunch.

The long waits reduced peoples expectations and established a low expected experience. Then when large amounts of 'normal' food arrived - with suitable ceremony. Gratitude and profits flowed.

I do believe the waiting approach is been applied to school repairs. Gratitude and votes, should flow from the delivery of the normal.

The speeches by Chef were great though, so we can expect suitably great speeches when the normal schools are at last delivered.
76

Alan B,

14/11/2008 10:15:47
#noswod

Disagree with you. I think the borders rail link and the edinburgh airport scheme are flawed and there is far more important rail schemes.

The borders scheme is uneconomic and only agreed by labour to buy of the lib dems who wanted to deliver something for their supporters in the borders.

Scotland would be far better having fast links between Glasgow and Edinburgh, linking our central belt towns to both of these cities, improving journey times and capacity of rail to alievate overcrowding than diving into white elephant schemes.
77

The Strategist,

14/11/2008 10:24:07
PFI is a system that will involve the children that attend these schools ending up paying for them through taxation when they start work (assuming they can find a job of course).

It's classic Labour "vote for me now but pay for my decisions later" politics.

The credit crunch caused by overborrowing and overlending is what is killing the economy right now. PFI is no different.
78

Porty Nat,

Edinburgh 14/11/2008 10:28:39
For the benefit of the gramatically and logically inadequate Charles Lindskail, G, Nikostratos, and all the other unionist trolls depriving their villages of idiots this morning:

*Scottish councils can still use PFI to build schools if they like.*

There. So if councils are not bringing projects forward, why might this be?

Is it because they know that HM Treasury is about to bring PFI debt back on balance sheet, thus eradicating any accounting advantage it ever had over other funding methods?

More than likely. Could it also be that they believe the SNP Government when it states that the Futures Trust will reduce the costs of contract negotiation and capital, so they're holding out for the cheaper (and better) method?

If its the latter, that hardly suggests that they regard the SFT as a bad thing. In fact, it suggests exactly the opposite. If your school's been crumbling due to lack of investment for years, then what difference is another few months going to make in the scheme of things, anyway?

Now, away and lick some windaes, the lot of you. Just don't pick a PFI building to do it in - they might fall out under the pressure and leave us with a £500 to get the contractor to put them back in again.
79

Vincent-W,

14/11/2008 10:30:51
The Strategist,

I didn't have the capital to buy my house outright so I am now mortgaged for most of the rest of my life. I think that applies to many people. The concept of get now pay later is not intrinsically bad.

I totally disagree with the use of the highly emotive term 'mortgaging our children's future' as in principle I see nothing wrong with the concept - if it's entered into correctly and managed properly.
80

Ally,

London 14/11/2008 10:34:32
#16 - "whiskey" revenues? There aren't any. There are in Ireland, and indeed the US, but up here we have "whisky". Labour-run education system... :-)

So am I to understand from the article that we have some sort of timebombed school system which only started to fall apart when the nationalists came to power? What a lot of drivel.

The Scotsman - please hire some journalists while you still have a shred of credibility left. This is like a Labour press release.
81

bluehead,

edinburgh 14/11/2008 10:39:03
schools are not the only thing that are crumbling,we have a goverment that is in the same state,in fact is there anything in Britain that is not crumbling ?
with a goverment like this labour pile,you can only expect a great deal of suffering.
82

Calum10,

14/11/2008 10:40:09
Here is story that highlights the problems with PFI schools.


"PFI schools 'designed like jails', say experts

The Scotsman, Date: 13 September 2008, By FIONA MACLEOD

NEW school buildings are like prisons because of high fences and CCTV cameras, according to a study.

Researchers at Edinburgh University compared a school built in the 1930s with a new public, private, partnership (PPP) school in the same city.

The academics found the design of the playground was a major concern at the PPP school, which was not named, with one teacher describing the small outside space, surrounded by a high fence and monitored by cameras, as "like a prison courtyard".

Another issue some raised with the new school playground was that the space was too open and very noisy, with no "nooks or crannies or semi-private spaces", making it difficult for groups of pupils to find a quiet spot.

A lack of transition space, such as a corridor, in the new building also meant there was no area to signify an expected change of behaviour going into the building. That meant it is often difficult to get pupils to settle down into lessons once they return from breaks.

There were also ventilation problems and hot, stuffy classrooms, with pupils feeling ill at the end of the day.

Dr Jane Brown presented initial findings from the research at the annual conference of the British Educational Research Association at Heriot-Watt University in Edinburgh.

She described the new school as "cheap" to build at £20 million and said school design was increasingly being influenced by business.

She said: "People who don't know anything about education are influencing some design now."

The older school, also unnamed, had a variety of private spaces and a choice of playgrounds, but it, too, was monitored by cameras.

Dr Brown added: "There seems to be evidence that we are now experiencing a new era of surveillance in our schools."

PPP schools have been controversial because of the q
83

Calum10,

14/11/2008 10:42:13

PPP schools have been controversial because of the quality of their design and last year pupils at Rosshall Academy in Glasgow took their complaints to the Scottish Parliament's education committee.

They said they needed chiropractors due to the heavy bags they had to carry as the school had been designed with no space for pupil lockers.

Audit Scotland in March said it would take 20 years to bring Scotland's school estate up to 21st century standards.

The independent watchdog's report Improving the School Estate also warned that private funding initiatives saw high maintenance charges which could leave non-PPP buildings crumbling as they slip down the maintenance priority list.
84

Celyn,

Sighthill, Glasgow 14/11/2008 10:46:06
"With 832 schools in Scotland designated as poor or bad, ... "

Who was in charge while these schools were becoming poor or bad? Did they all become bad since last May?
85

Matt there,

Somewhere 14/11/2008 10:46:14
"Good heavens, Holmes!" I shouted in alarm.

"What is it Watson, old chap?"

"All the schools in Scotland have started to crumble within months of Labour being forced out of power! Tha't remarkable, is it not?"

He put his copy of The Scotsman down, sighed, and replied: "No, old fellow, that is alimentary."

"Surely you mean elementary, Holmes?"

"No, Watson, I mean alimentary, as Maddox, Bailey and Labour are talking out of their bottoms."
86

Mrs Broon,

Dunfermline 14/11/2008 10:47:35
Funny, Portobello High School was finished the year I left the old School. It was built as a slum. If I remember the Tories were in then, I should say tories mark 1. After umpteen years of Tories Mark 2 it is falling to bits and it is all the SNP fault, Ha Ha. right.
87

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 14/11/2008 10:48:11
94 Vincent. All public buildings are necessarily mortgaged in effect. But the mortgage that PFI gives you is the equivalent of the worst in the market for a gerry-built flat that will fall down before you've paid for it. PFI is a huge waste of money - don't take my word for it, visit the UNISON web site, they are Labour affiliated so are hardly likely to be uber critical of PFI for partisan political motives. They are against it because their members who work in the public sector know it doesn't work and is a huge waste of money.

The Scottish government should not be bumped into making the same disastrous decisions as the Labour Party did to get shiny new schools that are not worth half of what they cost and are held together with cellotape. I was taught quite a few of my lessons in a portacabin, it didn't hurt me. That is not to be complacent about crumbling schools, but that should not be used as an excuse to jettison the commitment to jettison PFI.
88

Miss H,

14/11/2008 10:53:16
Councils are at perfect liberty to fund new projects through PFI. The Scottish Government has not prevented a single council from proceeding with a PFI contract.

Councils don’t want to use PFI because it is expensive.

But the majority of MSPs have supported PFI. Labour, Tories, Lib Dems – all big fans.

However as of April next year PFI will no longer be off the balance sheet because the UK will be adopting International Financial Reporting Standards (IRFS).

That will add billions of pounds of debt in Scotland onto the balance sheet at one stroke. So all in all it is a right old mess.

We clearly have an impasse, councils don’t want to use PFI but the majority of parliamentarians do not support an alternative, and the Scottish Government can’t really do all that much about it as it has no borrowing powers.

People can throw around accustions as much as they like but the reality is that we are up sh~t creek as far as I can tell.
89

danielrober,

14/11/2008 10:54:22
# 89 Alan B

If I was been cynical I would think that the SNP were repeating the exact same mistake the Labour party has just spent ten years trying to do. Control the engineering industry, by delaying building projects. It has been a disaster for the Labour party and it most likely will be a disaster for the SNP.

Delaying projects such as the borders rail-link, will just make the small - remaining/surviving private sector look great when we deliver.

PFI/SFT whats the difference? Labour/SNP capital projects whats the difference? Answer to both is none because its the same people, who just jump from one party to the next.

Why not give up controlling engineers and just award local contracts to real local engineers, instead of parachuted professionals.
90

T-bone,

14/11/2008 10:57:27
Very poor article, we expect more from a supposed national institution like The Scotsman. A cheap way to make political capital!

It is nonetheless, true, and there is going be no easy way for any Scottish government, of any political persuasion, to raise money for capital spending projects without some kind of funding strategy (PFI, SFT, whatever..) behind it. Spending public money is never popular - NOT spending it (aka Tories 1980's) is even less popular!!

I'm not an SNP supporter, but let's get behind them on the school building project for the sake of our childrens future.
91

Alan B,

14/11/2008 10:57:31
#Vincent-W

The cheapest form of debt is government debt ie bonds. The advantages of pfi is the government hold the debt off balance sheet.

We then have Brown parading around telling us about the level of government debt and does not include this new form of debt.

I think in some cases it is also a lease agreement and as such the government does not even own in the building at the end of the day. As such it is not even like a mortage where you own the building. Maybe another poster to could clarify if that is the case.
92

Miss H,

14/11/2008 10:58:04
14 That is complete rubbish. The SNP Government has not stopped any contracts from going ahead - they can't do that even if they wanted to.

Some PFI contracts have run into trouble - well, duh, we're in the middle of a recession. Where projects involve the use of private finance, the current lack of availability of funds for borrowing from the banking sector obviously affects that. It's not rocket science.
93

Alasdair,

14/11/2008 11:07:32
Damn the SNP!

They've been in power for a year and a half, and haven't yet solved the previous 50 years' worth of under-investment!

What scum.
94

Alan B,

14/11/2008 11:08:53
#danielrober

My point about rail expenditure was that i do not believe the border rail link or the EARL proposals were the best ones.

The border rail line as I understand it has not economic basis. It will rely on a massive house building programe to get enough people to live there to make it work.

I would prefer to improve and build rail links were we have alot of people and we could improve the lives of travellers and economy at large.

It seems silly to me not to prioritise
1)increase capacity so that their is not over crowding. That means more services etc
2)better relability. Travelling regularly by train the last 5 weeks have been a shambles.
3)high speed links between glas and edin (25 mins max)
4)they are currently opening a new southern link between the 2 cities. it is meant to have journey times of about 1.5hr. That is ridiculous. I would like to see a new southern link that runs every 10mins take not more than 1.2hr and stops with 9 stops only stopping at 3 of them. So each intermediate stop is catered for every 1/2hr.

It is ridiculous our central belt towns are not linked to both cities. Economic madness as they are the 2 big job sources.



We also have to consider how we want our future econmic strategy to be. By putting money into remote towns that are not viable to prop them up would we not be better encouraging a demographic shift towards our main job centres ie the cities. Scotland has traditionally had the labour attitude of trying to prevent decline rather than building success.
95

Vincent-W,

14/11/2008 11:10:06
AlanB,

In the schemes I am aware of, ownership of the schools goes to the councils in 30 years time. It is a stipulation of the contract that the school must be handed over in the same state that it was built.

Calum10,

Most of the problems you refer to are not intrinsic to PFI funding, rather they refer to the inability of the clients to specify and manage projects adequately on our behalf.

Projects are not diabolical creations because of the evils of capitalistic private companies - rather the problems are due to lack of project management skills in councils.

Why is it that the same contractors and subcontractors are quite capable of delivering high quality projects on time and at cost in some regions and in the Independant School Sector? Why is it that two years on my kids school is actually better than teh day it was built and yet the one 10 miles down the road looks scruffy and poorly maintained?
96

Alan B,

14/11/2008 11:11:51
sorry should have been

"take not more than 1/2hr" not 1.2hr
97

Alan B,

14/11/2008 11:16:09
#Vincent-W

What do you see the advantage of pfi being, if it is costlier than government debt via bonds now that according to posters such as Miss H pfi will no longer be off balance sheet.

The only advantage of pfi surely was that it was off balance sheet.

Governments by having the private sector holding their debt would then appear to have less national debt which when excessive has traditionally caused a run on the currency.
98

Alan B,

14/11/2008 11:17:20
#Vincent-W

"In the schemes I am aware of, ownership of the schools goes to the councils in 30 years time. It is a stipulation of the contract that the school must be handed over in the same state that it was built."

Good to know cheers.
99

Embra Don,

14/11/2008 11:18:14
The SNP's reluctance to allow local Authorities to write huge blank IOUs to the banks is responsible for the collapse of the international banking system.
So far that's about the only lie the Scotsman's Labour propaganda machine has not tried.
100

Embra Don,

14/11/2008 11:29:00
It is almost impossible, as far as I can see, to find out the level of legal and financial arrangement fees involved in a PFI project as they are deemed to "in commercial confidence".
We may however deduce whether they represent good value for the public from the fiasco of the Skye bridge where buying out the remaining years of the extortionate finance contract cost many times more than the construction cost of the bridge.
101

Vincent-W,

14/11/2008 11:30:02
AlanB,

Probably the biggest positive effect of the PFI/ppp scheme was to remove the inertia of no spending.

I am not a financial expert and do not claim to know what accounting method is best.


What I do know is:-

that we had near zero spending for too long,

that we did not have the capital available,

that we needed to 'borrow' in some way,

that projects need to be properly managed,

that politicians do not work together effectively for the good of citizens,

that PFI/PPP is neither as good or as bad as many posters would have us believe.


Is the strategy of 'off the balance sheet' sound? It seems there are some advantages.
102

Miss H,

14/11/2008 11:31:54
111 Vincent-W. The core problem with PFI is the finance.

We could all talk a lot about that but the most pressing issue is what will happen after April of next year.

I don’t know what the combined debt of PFI projects is in Scotland but safe to say it will be billions, as it has been the preferred method by which the Tories and Labour funded capital spending.

That debt will be added to the balance sheet when new reporting rules are adopted.

What should happen is that the UK Treasury will cover that debt. But given current economic circumstances who actually knows if that will happen? The worst case scenario is that the debt will not be covered and therefore the PFI debt will have to be loped off the Scottish budget.
103

Florence,

Edinburgh 14/11/2008 11:55:07
It's absolutely staggering the number of crumbling schools with leaky roofs etc. that have developed in the last 18 months and that they had all withstood the ravages of time and neglect until the SNP came into power. Wise up Scotsman and don't be such a mouthpiece for the Labour Party. Show a bit of grit and make an attempt to have at least a modicum of even-handedness.
104

Cramondo,

Edinburgh 14/11/2008 12:05:00
#2 Tommy Kaye

Sorry to go back to the beginning of the thread everyone but Tommy has repeated one of the SNP's favourite lines of Labour having been in power for the past 50 years.

Well, 50 years is a long time, but I don't think Labour were in power from:

1958 (and earlier) - 1964
1970 - 1974
1979 - 1997

I make it that Labour have been in power for 22 of the past 50 years.

And why would we want decent schools when we can have deregulated buses and toll-free bridges, which are much more important.
105

Warden An' All, Reborn,

14/11/2008 12:05:06
The new best bond ever: Daniel Craig- the snp's second best.
106

Alan B,

14/11/2008 12:11:05
#Vincent-W

Yes but if the argument for pfi must be it is value for money for the tax payer. ie it is the best way of raising capital.

As such if we are going to argue that pfi/ppp is a better way of financing capital projects it needs a good financial underpining.

I am not ideologically against pfi as i said before. But i think we all know that issuing governement debt via bonds is a cheaper approach and therefore most cost effective for the tax payer.

I think argument that the benefit of pfi/ppp is that government spent money is misguided. Governement spend money as the economy over the last 15yrs was doing better and labour are more likely to spend public money than the tories. So it political and economic rather than anything to do with pfi/ppp per se.

Also consider why the international accounting rules are being changed to include pfi debt in government debt. It indicates that governments were using clever ways to avoid accounting for their debt. ie they were using loopholes that are now being closed. It is seen as bad practice.

For instance the eu as part of the stability pact put in place foundations for good economic management say that government debt should be no higher than 60% of gdp. A government moves debt to pfi and off balance sheet and hey they have met the eu debt criteria.
107

Warden An' All, Reborn,

14/11/2008 12:11:55
Scots used to believe in education, and that included the kids. It is the kids who are rejecting education. As a country we are too stupid to go it alone, and I'd bet many of those kids couldn't even spell independence. Education will set you free, but again as the kids don't want the education they must in turn be rejecting their country's freedom into independence.
108

Alan B,

14/11/2008 12:15:23
#Cramondo

"And why would we want decent schools when we can have deregulated buses"

That is one of the most daft things i have read in these posts.

What has deregulated buses to do with decent schools?

Were schools better when buses where regulated. Were schools bad under labour as buses continued to be deregulated.

Sorry to insult you, but with logic like that, I would expect you support labour.
109

Yes We Can,

Ayrshire 14/11/2008 12:15:52
I work for a Local Council and if you ask any Council Officer about PFI / PPP they will all admit that it is an undesirable and inefficient way to fund capital investments, but it was used because it was "the only game in town" under the Lab/Lib coalition.
110

Warden An' All, Reborn,

14/11/2008 12:16:53
124-Hoots" Fandango- You find yourself in the minority on this subject, you only have to look around in the media to see what most are saying.
111

Calum10,

14/11/2008 12:20:11
The Treasury will be forced in 2009 to bring onto the UK government books over £170 billion of current PFI debt.

As thing currently stand public sector debt stands at 48% of national income, a 11% increase on 2007. With PFI debt coming onto the books in 2009 public sector debt will be at 60% of national income, a further 12% increase on 2008.

The last time public sector debt was at 60% levels, in the 1970s, investors took flight and the Labour government of the time was forced to go to the IMF to bail out the UK economy.

The sheer folly of PFI will harm everybody, whether you are a pupil, teacher, patient, nurse, doctor, workers in the private sector, small and medium size businesses..... and all we will have to show for it are a whole series of slap-dash buildings that are unfit for purpose.
112

salmondella,

UK 14/11/2008 12:22:02
Do I detect a strong smell of fear among the loyal ranks of SNP supporters as it begins to dawn on them that their party is crumbling like the very schools that they are supposed to be looking after? Whither independence
113

Cramondo,

Edinburgh 14/11/2008 12:23:22
#127 Sorry to appear daft - I was attempting to comment on the priorities of the current Scotish government. Anyone can see the increase in school and hospital building that there has been across the UK since 1997. In my opinion, some of the SNP's immediate priorities were utterly trivial (bridge tolls) or downright odd (changing their policy on buses whilst getting significant financial support from Soutar; is it wrong to point that out?), compared with what was needed.

For the avoidance of doubt, yes I vote Labour.

114

no-name,

Edinburgh 14/11/2008 12:24:27
Buildings don't get into this state over a period of 18 months.
Labour - New & Old - need to learn some humility and realise that they are the cause of the great majority of problems in Scotland and the UK
115

Miss H,

14/11/2008 12:26:56
131 I'll admit to feeling a certain amount of fear. If you are not nervous at the very least you have not really thought things through.

Read AlanB's post at 125

Who knows how high the UK government debt is going to be when PFI projects are added on to the balance sheet? And it will be getting added on in addition to the extra borrowing to finance the bank bailouts.

It’s like the perfect storm.

Ploughing on full steam ahead adding even more PFI debt to the mix would be madness.
116

Green,

Dundee 14/11/2008 12:29:12
Alan B

would like the terms of pfi projects to be publicly available as i simple do not agree with hiding the figures as part of commercial confidentiality.


Very good point, this is a scandal of huge proportions, hiding as it does so much public spending from democratic scrutiny.
117

,

14/11/2008 12:30:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
118

Cramondo,

Edinburgh 14/11/2008 12:32:26
#136 I thought we had established that they weren't in power for decades
119

Queen D,

Glasgow 14/11/2008 12:33:12
As a rather vulgar friend once said , " No Salmondella, your shirt front must be open"
120

Vincent-W,

14/11/2008 12:34:01
Jwil,

40% PoT - who? even the most profitable manufacturing companies I know can't even sniff at that.
121

Alan B,

14/11/2008 12:37:32
#132 Cramondo

Labour ran a deregualated bus service. The snp rightly or wrongly continued with what they inherited. What has that got to do with anything regarding pfi and school building.


If removing bridge tolls should not be done and trivial why did labour remove them in other parts of the country eg Erskine Bridge.

I am abit on the fence regarding whether tolls for bridges are good or not. But i think it was totally wrong to play east against west. It was policies such as this that Wendy said labour needed to be a party for the whole of scotland and not just the west. I am come from Glasgow but do not want parties playing one area of against another.

So either have bridge tolls or not. Not only for some areas.

Also while you think it trivial many might think it is good economics to encourage the fife economy which could and should benefit much more from the wealth of edinburgh.


But this article is abouot pfi. Whether it is better to use the higher cost mechanism of private finance to pay for capital projects rather than government bonds particularly now this practise of off balance sheet debt has been pulled up by international accounting practices and forced to be on balance sheet.

For me while it is desirable to have new good quality schools etc it must not be at the expense of bankrupting the country. By labour spending more than was coming in, in taxes despite all the rises, and Brown making a mockery of his own golden rule not to borrow over the economic cycle we are now in complete fiscal mess at the worst time when the economy is collapsing.
122

Alan B,

14/11/2008 12:39:16
#137 Green

I expect it hides corruption aswell. Openess and transparancy can only be good.
123

Calum Crubag,

14/11/2008 12:40:45
SNP VICTORY CAUSES SCHOOLS TO CRUMBLE
say MacPravda
124

Calum Crubag,

14/11/2008 12:41:48
MAY 4TH 2007 - THE DAY THE SCHOOLS STARTED TO CRUMBLE
by David Mad-as
125

Calum Crubag,

14/11/2008 12:42:31
SNP TO TEAR DOWN THE SCHOOLS AND EXECUTE KIDS
writes Bend Bay-lie
126

Green,

Dundee 14/11/2008 12:43:36
135 Miss H

Ploughing on full steam ahead adding even more PFI debt to the mix would be madness.

Quite right... and, excellent posts
127

Mr. Richard C. Normuss,

14/11/2008 12:44:20
20

You seem well versed on how much damage the SNP are doing to Scotland with their incompetent, incorrectly prioritised policies. How long, prey tell will it take any elected group, let alone the SNP to make a solid attempt at repairing the damage inherited from the Labour Party…A tad longer than 18 months.

You could even be mistaken for a labour party employee.
128

Alan B,

14/11/2008 12:48:35
#139 Cramondo

You really are a labour supporter no matter the situation.

It is silly to say the snp are responsible for crumbling schools when labour have been in power for the last 10yrs. Schools do not just crumble in a yr. Labour councils for the last 50yrs have been responsible for maintenance.

At the end of the day schools crumble becuase they have not been maintained that is then labour as they have dominated scottish councils over the past 50yrs.

And/or poor orginal buildings particularly in the 60/70s. Probably again labour has schools buidling were a council responsibility.

But labour have invested alot in the last 10yrs on new buildings (so cannot blame them for crumbling schools), but at the risk of putting the fiscal health of the country at risk in doing so. As they spend more than was coming in breaking even Browns own rule of economic competence. They have also done it in an expensive off balance sheet way,as it allowed excessive debt they could not simply have shown on the balance sheet. To a large extent it is labour all over, good at spending money not very good at generating the wealth to underpin it.
129

Vincent-W,

14/11/2008 12:48:51
147 Calum Crubag,

SNP TO TEAR DOWN THE SCHOOLS AND EXECUTE KIDS

You know I disagree with many of your posts, but that one is genuinely funny!! Thanks
130

Shug,

14/11/2008 12:55:06
Amazing that our schools have suddenly started to crumble after all these years being so well maintained by previous Labour governments!
131

Arfur,

14/11/2008 13:04:09
David Maddox and Ben Bailey - Labour lackies of the highest order.

What about the 11 years of shoite from Labour David and Ben? Grow a pair and try help Scotland improve instead of working for the tired party that have been in charge of this country for yonks and done hee haw donkey.
132

Russell339,

Edinburgh 14/11/2008 13:04:26
#150 You clearly have no idea of how the PPP or old PFI funding schemes work at all. The government and/or the council's are not putting fiscal health at risk at all, nor have they done in the past. The vast majorty of the proposed new schools are funded under the aforementioned schemes, and the problem lies with the SNP putting a stop to this funding source (against all educated advice), and not having a suitable replacement available.

You can harp on about Labour failings all you want, but if they had remanined in power, these buildings would still be scheduled for replacement in the near future with the PPP delivering where required. It doesn't take a genius to see that the SNP should have delivered an alternative funding source before cutting PPP monies.

What is putting 'fiscal health' at risk is the huge uncertainty of the maintenance liability of these ageing properties. Under PPP the council simply pay a fixed monthly rental for the building for 30 years, regardless of what maintenance is required.

Also, PFI does not exist anymore, and has not done so for some time. Get some factual information before you sound off in future.

133

Vincent-W,

14/11/2008 13:15:56
Russell339,

You seem to know your facts.

What is the actual cost to the tax payer?

Given that the school is owned by the council after 30 years what would be a typical monthly payment?


ploughmans lunch, wrote

"PFI PPP the truth.
http://tinyurl.com/5qpt2s and it stinks as much as labour."

Hardly an unbiased and definitive source of information, probably as well sticking to teh Scotsman if that's your source of data.
134

Shug,

14/11/2008 13:17:20
159. PFI is alive and well. I have worked in that area. It is very wrong to say that the majority of projects are PFI/PPP etc. The majority of projects are still capital funded by the government.

The histroy of PFI/PPP is intersting. At the end of the 70's massive investment was needed in UK infrastructure. The problem was that the UK was broke (sound familiar?). The reason we were broke was because of WWII! The winners didn't take it all. WWII brought us to our knees and the USA bailed us out finacially. I think it was only in the late 1990's that we finished paying the USA back. Germany and France got rebuild essentially for free.

As there had been no serious infrastructure investment since the war the government had to come up with the cash. One option was to borrow. Borrowing generally is perceived (or was then) as a bad thing (put interest rates up) so privta efinacne was regarded as the best way forward to get the schools, hospitals etc built. People may not like PFI/PPP but it produces more immediate results, the schools get built.
135

Calum Crubag,

14/11/2008 13:17:56
Vince - se do bheatha/ you're welcome
136

Raygn,

Stirling 14/11/2008 13:24:21
A shoddy piece of journalism, something that is becoming far too commonplace in this paper. This isn't reporting anymore and headlines such as this are more suited to the Record or Sun. No wonder the circulation figures are so poor.
137

North Enclosure ER,

HUNGERFORD 14/11/2008 13:25:55
Schools fall apart in 18 months! Never mind the year's of neglect by Labour goverments Westminster & Holyrood its' all the fault of the SNP - I think not!
Poor journalism by The Scotsman newspaper.
138

seanie,

14/11/2008 13:30:23
Under PFI projects are still built on borrowed money. But that borrowing was contracted out to the private sector to take it off the public sector balance sheet.

It was primarily an accounting scam.
139

Sumlogic,

Bias 14/11/2008 13:34:02
More biased headlines from the Scotsman, however I don’t think they are the only so called newspaper to resort to this nonsense.

Lets face it, Scotland have had a Labore gov for donks and look at the state the Schools were allowed to get into, now its not all their fault, the Tories were the real culprits, selling off the family silver and grossly under investing in public services.

Now we have an SNP government that (according to some) are supposed to clean up decades of underinvestment in one term with a budget that received the smallest increase since devolution, and at a time of Global financial uncertainty brought on by greedy, foolhardy almost fraudulent investments in products that were not worth the paper they were written on, except to the bankers who received massive, often Tax Free bonuses based on their fictitious, conjured value!

“The Centre for Policy Studies argues that the real national debt is actually £1,340 billion, which is 103.5 per cent of GDP. This figure includes all the public sector pension liabilities such as pensions, and Private Finance Initiative contracts (Northern Rock liabilities).”

Yes SNP have a mountain to climb, and that’s just to get passed the rogue reporting and bias, never mind the real issues of how to try and make ends meet in a country (UK Plc) which is getting deeper into debt by the minute.

Maybe the 'Union' is not the marriage people still believe it to be?
140

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 14/11/2008 13:34:12
128 absolutely right. And the National Audit Office has highlighed PFI as a particularly poor way to fund public sector building. But why let the truth get in the way of a good story ?
141

AJM,

14/11/2008 13:36:00
Miss H and AlanB I agree with you assessments of the situation. There have been some good posts on here about the story.

In my opinion the mistake that the SNP made, for whatever reason, was to flail around trying to find an alternative in power when their model appears to have been not in a state that it could be slotted straight in to get working. Or brought in after a year. Arrogantly work was put on hold for political reasons, a niaive view, as it turne out.

As a result there has been a delay, and the economic downturn was not seen by anyone. The result is now very little room for manouvere and open to a charge of dither and incompetence. They would have some buildings underway and the charge would have been negated.

However AS insisted the other night that the forth road bridge toll removal was part of a economic stimulus package. Which is such rubbish that know apart from him or ardent NATs will believe.

AS came in with an objective to appear to be trusted on the economy, he had plenty of things going for him on that front. This part has been frittered away and leads him with a mighty challenge.

The pfi on of books is a red herring as it was always going to be the case irrespective of the SNP changes or not. I am also sure that the UK government are not the only one playing the game.
142

steve52,

Kinfauns 14/11/2008 13:46:09
You really have to laugh at the audacity of Labour and the Libliars, oh and not to mention Labours backers and supporters working at the Scotsman.

For how many years have Labour run councils neglected our schools? They only complain now because they are not running the country.

The worse run councils in Scotland are all Labour controled. Look at Abberdeen....up to their ears in debt and a Labour councillor states that this is the fault of the previous administration and, wait for it, also the current one!!!

The schools will be repaired but as with everything else money does not grow on trees and Westminster Labour is making sure the SNp do not have all they are entitled to in order to run Scotland as it should be.
143

Vincent-W,

14/11/2008 13:46:19
AJM,

I agree, the quality of posting has been refreshingly high.
144

Alan B,

14/11/2008 13:53:02
#Russell339

The fiscal health of the country has been put at risk over the last decade by labour spending more than they are taking in, in taxes.

Brown wisely put in place a golden rule of economic stability to say he would not borrow over the economic cycle, he has broken and fudged that rule and been warned about it since 2004.

It is pretty basic rules about economic management. You do not spend everything in the good times and leave nothing spare when there is an economic downturn.

Brown has been fiscally irresponsible. Have you actually seen the deficits that we have been running and are expected to run up.

Also if you read my posts you would actually see that i am not against pfi ideologically. But do not let what i actually post on a threat get in the way of your rant.

I have however questioned why pfi is secret and do not believe that commerical confidentiality is a good enough reason. I also question the advantages of pfi when government bond debt is a cheaper way of finance. The only advantage I can see of pfi is it off balance sheet. But now the international accounting rules apparently mean that government can not longer use that loophole to put government debt off balance sheet. Meaning even without this current economic crisis official government debt will soar.

As you have raised the issue of me critising labour. My main critism of labour is over their economic incompetence. In a similar way to brown breaking his golden rule over fiscal prudence by spending more than the economy was taking in, he has built an economy based on government spending and even worse consumer debt.

Brown said in opposition he would control house prices. He has failed. In fact he did not even try. While he wisely made the BOE independent to control inflation he set them a target of cpi which does not include housing costs. Unlike the european central bank he did not set a target to control the money supply ie credit. And at the same time did not brin
145

Alan B,

14/11/2008 13:53:32
... And at the same time did not bring in any quantitive measures to control mortgage debt. Did he lie? Hard to come to any other conclusion.

This whole economic crisis in the uk is made far worse as we have built the economy on debt. Unlike the slump of the late 90s we cannot use consumer debt to get us out of this one. Pumping public money into get us out this crisis is also difficult as we spent too much in the good times. As such we are in a complete mess of browns making.

We are coming at this from different points of view. I want the economy to be run prudently putting wealth generation and stability at the front. You are putting the typical labour agenda of spend money until the country is virtually bankrupt as your way.
146

Alan B,

14/11/2008 13:57:51
#AJM

I think the snp have made a few mistakes.

I think they thought that if they won the momentum would mean that Brown would change the rules and allow the scottish government to borrow. They put all their eggs in one basket.

They have also followed the labour policy of attacking pfi when in opposition but have little alternative but to repackage the same thing in power.
147

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 14/11/2008 14:02:53

Boy Wondern now @#48, was @#50,

I see some comments must of been removed, with no trace.

Anyhow your use of the word "Penurious" has many meanings, to which meaning do you use it?

148

The Strategist,

14/11/2008 14:04:12
94 Vincent-W

Sure but taking out a mortgage was your choice. PFI deals are set up without you voting for them..
149

Alan B,

14/11/2008 14:07:05
#AJM

"As a result there has been a delay, and the economic downturn was not seen by anyone."

I think it was seem by many outside the political arena. But no-one knew the timing, or the severity or that so many different factors would contribute and combine at the same time.

I also think so many have been predicting a crash for so long and it never seemed to happen that the calls for caution and action were pushed away.

I know many people told me there would be a housing crash and that all that personal debt was not sustainable. People not interested in politics or economics but people interest in investing and business. Many could just not understand the sustainability of such an inflated housing market.

I was also worried about the high levels of public expenditure more than we were taking in, in tax and an economy built on consumer debt, delivering artificial levels of high growth that masked what the true level of our underlying competitiveness and economic strength was.




150

Alan B,

14/11/2008 14:14:59
#Russell339

Question for you.

Why do you think labour have failed to transform the scottish economy, continuing it on the path of slow economic growth?

Scotland has grown at less that 2% over 30yrs. We have grown at 2.2% compared to the whole uk of 2.8% over the last decade. And 3.6% for the group of small european countries economists refer to. And we did this during a good global economic climate. Now the global climate has changed and is going to be more difficult the chances of a transformation are even less likely.

I understand you supported labour. But in 10yrs with Brown as chancellor they had their chance to show what they could do. They failed us and i find it difficult to see why we should stick with a party that does not seem as if it recognises its own failing and no idea how to put it right.
151

Maurice the Dolphin,

swimming the seas 14/11/2008 14:21:57
Alex Salmonds new crusade. Never mind the schools, the bricks and mortar, lets build better canteens!!
152

danielrober,

14/11/2008 14:22:38
# 110 Alan B,

Firstly I'm not really bothered what the name is so long as money is been spent on schools and hospitals.

These are the infrastructure projects that has served our country through the difficult years. Sure some people ignore exams, qualifications, some even veto stuff and plagiarise. But these guys are the real weaklings of our society, who often need protection from self harm and excessive self indulgence. Schools and hospitals add real value to a country.

So why not get the program moving again under what ever name - who's cares.
153

AJM,

14/11/2008 14:23:40
#AlanB, absolutely right. Many factors have come together to create a situation that is worse then we and commentators thought it would be.

There are always doom sayers and when they get their timing right we can invest them with more insight than they deserve.

I also thought that the house market would slow to a standstill and allow wages etc to catch up. Probably would have done if the banks did not stop lending.

It is difficult not to profoundly disagree with Bush and previous to that Thatcher that the markets are the best place to decide value etc.

The pfi is unless I have got this wrong a philosophy that was spawned on the era of the free market is king and always right and will always drive down cost.

My meagre experience currently of approved suppliers to in this case Energy savings trust is that they are considerably more expensive than the market. Government money seems to create a new market.
154

danielrober,

14/11/2008 14:24:53
# 110 Alan B,

As for 25 minutes between G and E. The only functions that would do is create a 'twin doughnut' transport route. Blending two cities into one to indulge in someone's fantasy, is a waste of time (but a very common idea). I know it sounds good center to center in 25 minutes, but its an expensive waste of money, for a commute route only taken by a few people.

Or to put it another way you could have a second shinny bridge and a shinny railway paid for by generations of Scots, yet used by a few. Working their guts out in rubbish schools and decrepit hospitals.

Mmm that's sounds familiar, should there not be a porsche 944 in that picture.
155

Miss H,

14/11/2008 14:39:12
159 That really is nonsense. The SNP Government has not put a stop to PFI or PPP. It does not have the power to do so even if it wanted to and millions of pounds worth of PFI contracts have gone ahead since May 2007.

The well is starting to dry up – of course it is. For two reasons – firstly because local authorities do not like PFI and are waiting to see what the Scottish Futures Trust can deliver. Secondly, because it is becoming increasingly difficult to borrow in the private sector. More banks or financial institutions would need to be involved in order to fund large PFI projects, as each of them will now be much more cautious about the level of risk they are willing to take. This pushes up the cost of borrowing making PFI even more expensive than it was before.

No matter if you think PFI/PPP was a good idea in the past it will not serve us now. It was the capital funding mechanism of choice in the boom years but now we are bust.

Until Scotland’s other parties are willing to engage with that reality we will not get any further forwards.
156

Alan B,

14/11/2008 14:40:06
#AJM

"It is difficult not to profoundly disagree with Bush and previous to that Thatcher that the markets are the best place to decide value etc."

Few point regarding Thatcher.

1)Thatcher believe in controlling inflation. House price inflation has been growing something 15% a yr.
2)Early thatcherite economic policy was based on monetarism that meant controllng the growth of the money supply ie credit. It is the uncontrolled growth in credit that has fueled the housing market boom.
(she however undermined her own economic policy of controlling the grown of credit using interest rates by subsidising credit with miras).


I do not know anyone that predicted the timing. Just more that it would happen. I think it took alot longer than most predicted.

The problem with allowing the house market to get over inflated and the corresponding levels of debt is the correction is very painful. Also so much debt here and in the US has brought the banking sector to it knees. The banks would simply not be in trouble today if they had only funded mortages out of deposits and not the global credit markets.

We really should have learned from the negative equity crisis in the early 90s recession.

I mean some of the prices and house price inflation was ridiculous. Even back in the mid 90s i knew a girl who bought a flat in london for 52G and sold it about 18months later for 150G.

Another friend of mine sold 2 flats in london for about 650G each a few yrs ago. The lending practises were silly as he did not earn alot.

If we had enforced rules of only borrowing as a ratio of salary then we would not have had the huge housing inflation. Housing would have been more affordable. They would not be seen as a commodity but a home. And we would not have created the huge buy to let market where people finance variable only mortages by rent and make a killing on the capital growth.

157

AJM,

14/11/2008 14:45:12
#185 Mr George

There is no smear campaign, only political parties doing what they do best rubbishing the other. Please ignore the smear campaign against T Blair by the SNP that wasted millions of pounds rightly or wrongly. If you do not like people having a go over your policies stay in opossion.

50 yrs ago most of the schools would have been either up to the standards of the time or new, it is 50yrs of wear and tear that is the problem.

And no the SNP can and will be blaimed for labours failure if either Labour Libdems and the Tories are smart enough.

It is very arrogant to suggest that the SNP are above politics, especially when the leader is such an artist of the bandwagon and smart sarcastic response.
158

Miss H,

14/11/2008 14:46:06
AlanB/AJM

I agree the SNP have made mistakes over this. Main mistake was to try and turn an independence policy into a devolved one.

The reality is that without the normal financial powers of independence there is little the Scottish Government can do about PFI/PPP except try and tweak it into a more non-profit making model. That should be supported but it’s not really an alternative as other ideas would be e.g. infrastructure bonds and incentives to invest in them.

The problem for the SNP is that if they had said we think there is an over-reliance on PFI/PPP people would say OK what is your alternative. If they then say there is nothing we can do unless we are independent then they would just be slated for having no policy. So they have tried to come up with something that could conceivably be made to work in he devolved context but it is proving quite tricky and the crisis of capitalism is making matters worse.

159

Alan B,

14/11/2008 14:50:30
#186 danielrober

I think you are confusing what i said.

I said that I think their are better priorities from rail than EARL and the borders link. That is nothing to do with schools etc.

I explained what i think these priorities should be.
1)dealing with the lack of capacity
2)dealing with reliability
3)and having good fast transport links between edin and glas and our town in between.

Alot of people travel by train every day and as such have a reliable service with adaquate capacity is important.

I believe a good transport system is one thing government can do to improve the econommic performance of the country.

Why are most of our central belt towns not linked to both cities. I think that is silly.

The only reason i moved to where i did was it was one of the few links between both cities. When i came back from london i knew the job market in scotland was such that you cannot rely on one city and as such you need to open up both.

It makes sense to me to have livingston with fast links to glasgow and say other towns say motherwell/east kilbride/aidrie (much of what the new line will do but far too slow) with fast links to edinburgh.

To me getting people access to our big job markets is an economic fundamental. But one that has been ignored.

I would also like a fast train service between ed/glas and london. No more than 3hrs would do the trick. Scotland needs good access to wealth centres.



160

Miss H,

14/11/2008 14:56:29
191 This is going to hit you guys as well. The UK's combined PFI debt is calculated to be £181 billion. That figure is from a House of Commons briefing. It will all be added to the balance sheet in April next year.
161

Cramondo,

Edinburgh 14/11/2008 15:09:12
In response to several of you:

1. Forgive me for being a bit glib on this message board - everybody else here only makes serious remarks

2. This "Labour in power for over 50 years" stuff is nonsense. Ultimately, the party in power at Westminster is "in power" (devolution, which I firmly support, changed that to some extent)

3. There was serious neglect of all kinds of public buildings / amenities in the Thatcher/Major era, a period that I still (silly me) think of as being "Labour not in power" (I worked in different parts of the public sector in Scotland for much of that era; it did not feel like Labour were controlling much)

4. Since Labour got in in 1997, that has been significantly reversed but much more remains to be done

5. Of course, the SNP are not to blame for crumbling schools. But since they got in, they appear to have dithered over this, and the progress that was being made has stuttered.

6. Meanwhile, they rushed to implement headline-grabbing populist stuff such as bridge tolls

7. The point about bus-deregulation is not about a comparison with Labour, it is a comment on the SNP policy-making process and how policy can be changed in line with the interests of their (second-biggest?) benefactor.
162

Ian G,

EDINBURGH 14/11/2008 15:13:54
Are we truly to believe that after 17 months of SNP rule all Scottish schools are falling down?
What the heck did the labour/liberal Government do when they were in power?
Of course silly me all those schools were in good order but suddenly after 17 months they suddenly need repairs.

OH PLEASE GIVE ME A BREAK!!

How come this paper is NOT BLAMING THE LAST ADMINISTRATION?
163

MoClana,

14/11/2008 15:31:48
Quote ' With 832 schools in Scotland designated as poor or bad '

Now, did these schools start 'crumbling' in the last 15 months since SNP took power? could you even build a school in this time?

What the hell were Liebour doing for all these years for schools to be left so long is such dis repair?


164

Alan B,

14/11/2008 15:35:26
#Cramondo

If school buildings are crumbling do you put that down to

1)poor maintenance
2)poor original buildings say in the 60s.

As such can you really absolve the councils from blame?


"There was serious neglect of all kinds of public buildings / amenities in the Thatcher/Major era"

" Since Labour got in in 1997, that has been significantly reversed but much more remains to be done"

Looking at these 2 quotes i would say:

1)Major actually released the purse strings considerably from the thatcher period.
2)Labour accepted tory public spending levels, kept to them, even the tories said they would not have been so strick.

As such your quotes are move labour party propoganda than fact.

Also why do you limit "neglect" to the tory years and not before under labour.

Remember for all the labour lies about the tories cutting the nhs spending. The truth is labour in the 70s are the only party in this history of the nhs to cut spending in real terms.

That was due to labour vitually bankrupting the country in the 70s when we had to turn to the imf for banana republic type emergency bail out loans. Labour also managed to have an inflation rate hitting 25% during this period.

I find the word neglect also abit misleading. The tories for most of the 80s actually had to divert so much public spending to welfare as the economy was in a complete shambles.

While i am no tory supporter they inheritted a complete and utter economic shambles from labour with the global economy moving into a deep economic recession. As such it is not surprising that new schools etc were not the priority. Keeping the country afloat was.
165

Miss H,

14/11/2008 15:40:16
195 195 Scrapping bridge tolls cost very little in the scheme of things – not enough to build even one decent sized school or hospital so that’s a daft argument. Having said that, the abolition of tolls has made life considerably easier for individuals and businesses in Fife. It also corrected an injustice in that tolls had been abolished everywhere else in Scotland. The argument was made that tolls were necessary to regulate the traffic and prevent congestion. Having spent much of the past month driving to and fro Glenrothes over the bridge I can assure you that was rubbish.

If your argument is that the SNP has signed off less capital investment than Labour did, I don’t think that is technically true. The SNP has signed off over £1billion of capital investment including new schools since taking office.

But even if it was true the underlying issue is the financing of capital investment and what impact the change of accounting rules will have when PFI/PPP debt becomes part of public debt. The House of Commons Library says that the total amount of PFI debt in the UK is £181 billion. We don’t know what share of that is Scotland’s. If you assume it is a population share – around 8% - that would mean £14.48 billion which is half the Scottish Parliament’s annual budget. The UK Treasury is hopefully finding a way in which to finesse this so that we don’t have to suddenly find billions of pounds worth of cuts to service the PFI debt. Because if that happened crumbling schools would be the least of our worries frankly.
166

MoClana,

14/11/2008 15:48:40
# Happy English - you dont sound very happy.

# Crammando - where does one start with your points or rather lack of them....i take it you are a fully paid up member of the Liebour party then?

Criterea: Someone who repeats themselves, perpetuates myths and lies, insults other countries,supports illegal wars, rejoices in anything negative about Scotland, corrupts the democratic process and drones on about us all being ' Brittish' ? even though nobodys listening.

Coming to think of it 'Happy English ' (more like 'irate time of the month English), if you are anti independence , should you not be Happy Brittsh'?

And if you pride yourself on being English, why do you have a problem with those of us who are happy Scottish ?

167

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 14/11/2008 15:55:32
what a lot of rot, schools were crumbling way before the SNP took office, That's one of the reasons Labour were ousted at the last election. It will take a long time to clear up the mess left behind by Labours past councillors and MSP's. Our town centres schools and hospitals were in an awful mess yet the SNP have dilligently been rebuilding as best they can and will continue to improve and build on the positive improvements they have made. The people of Scotland aint daft and their memories are longer than Labour and the Scotsman give us no credit for...Except of course in Glenrothes...I'm seeing some memory loss and daftness around that area...
168

lodger,

Highland 14/11/2008 16:36:16
Our local school has been crumbling for the last 35 years. It is quite obviously the SNP's fault!
They should have won 35 years ago and things would have been very different nowadays.
The same can be said for the state of our killer roads From Inverness south and between Aberdeen and inverness. Its all the fault of the new SNP government.
NOT!!!
If this country is in its present state, then it is not for the want of neglect by the Tory and the Labour misadministrations
169

Shaken,

14/11/2008 17:02:43
Word of hope to the SNP supporters.

Fox news and NBC in the US ran a smear campaign on Barrack Obama - everything from alledging terrorist links to underhand dealings and how much BO looked like Osama Bin Laden

Johnson Press are guilty of media bias; headlines like the one above just fuel idiots like Charles who think labour are doing agreat job!

What makes me laugh is that Nicola Sturgeon got voted scottish politician of the year and this rag doesn't even mention it.

Desperation of Labour Party - that should be the headline
170

danielrober,

14/11/2008 17:43:09
# 192 Alan B

In Scotland schools and railways are the same subject. The SFT is breaking down one of the primary innovations of the PFI, admired around the world, separate funding functions. PFI has 'tried' to copy private sector funding, with school roofs paid for by one loan and hospital car parks paid for by another. The SNP SFT looks set to melt them into one fund.

So, if you continue down this track you are just going to announce every year x amount of government funding to be moved according to your desires. That's taking power away from the local authorities and firmly placing it in the hands of the Scottish Executive. Which is a shame, as the SP could do so much more than a simply power grab, from LA's.

BTW your dead wrong about the borders rail link.
171

Islandboy2,

Isle of Skye 14/11/2008 18:17:59
So in 18 months the SNP are meant to fix decades of under investment in schools?

Quite simple....A pile of Hypocritical p**h!


172

P Rayner.,

Latin America. 14/11/2008 18:18:15
I hold no brief for the SNP,regarding it as comical, limited and ludicrous. However,to blame it for problems in Scottish schooling is stupid and unfair That blame, if blame is to be apportioned, lies primarily with the Labour Executive and national Westminster government. That the anti English SNP is blind and incapable of improving the lot of Scots, in education or anything else, I have no doubt but thats quite another thing from blame now.
173

John H,

edinburgh 14/11/2008 18:19:14
SNP
Simply Negligent Failure.
174

,

14/11/2008 18:57:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
175

P Rayner.,

Latin America 14/11/2008 19:05:59
217. I very much doubt ¨the media,¨whatever that is, is controlled by Labour. But even if it were, so what? People can think for themselves, can´t they? You evidentally do, since despite Labour control you think the SNP is doing a good job. Personally I think when the raison d´tre of a party is anti Englishness I´d steer clear. Evidentally the people of Glenrothes agree.
176

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 14/11/2008 19:46:59
Am I wrong in assuming that councils are the ones who are hindering the progress on school construction affairs?

According to the report PP Longstocking can be applied for.

Hmmmm? I reckon cooncils are beginning to learn the hard way about budgeting and blaming the government.
177

chico y,

14/11/2008 19:51:55
Blah blah "anger at SNP" blah blah "SNP failure" blah blah "brown bounce" blah blah "blow to SNP". Can't be long till this rag goes out of business.

C'mon the SNP !

Raison d'etre of SNP is pro Scottish not anti anyone.

Liebore are anti scottish.
178

Scotish Exile,

14/11/2008 20:13:10
Scottish Schools have been crumbling for decades, due to a complete lack of investment by local councils, the majority of which are labour run. Do not blame the SNP, they inherited this debacle
179

Brian S,

Edinburgh 14/11/2008 20:31:49
Another title that reminds me why I stopped buying the Scotsman.

My mother works in a school and I can tell you this, it was crumbling under Labour just as much as when the Tories were in power.

The SNP has it's faults but this isn't something you can blame them for.
180

P Rayner.,

Latin America 14/11/2008 20:40:10
220. If you are able to arrouse a smidgin of objectivity you´ll see ample evidence not only of SNP anti Englishness but your own. For myself I regard the SNP and those who follow it as irrelevant. As Winston Churchill wrote 60 years ago, if the Scots want independence they merely need to vote for it. Whatever SNP claims, or yours, that is a self evident truth.
181

danielrober,

14/11/2008 20:59:35
# 225 Scotish Exile

"Scottish Schools have been crumbling for decades, due to a complete lack of investment by local councils,"

True, so why have you guys put the breaks on the rebuilding program? I know a ten year, to date program, seems a long time but its not. The schools need at least another ten years just to catch up with our EU competition. The EU is a great opportunity that has benefited the UK more than we have lost, but you need to compete and keep working.
182

,

15/11/2008 00:18:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
183

Wee Fred,

15/11/2008 10:30:40
Labour spent years blaming Thatcher

The SNP are going to spend years blaming Labour

Anyone see a pattern developing?
184

Ian from Gala,

16/11/2008 23:18:00
Having assumed power in May 2007, and lacking an overall majority, I think that the SNP are doing well to make the progress they have done on a new capital projects funding scheme which won't be like handing over blank cheques to developers. This deserves time and consideration - or my school-age sons will be paying the price! Let's stop laying the blame for the poor state of some public buildings on the SNP. Remind me which Westminster-centred parties have been in charge for decades.......... and who was unltimately responsible for the poor quality construction of many schools in the 1960's.

 

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