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'Welcome' rise in Scots applying to study at universities



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Published Date: 17 July 2008
By FIONA MACLEOD
MORE Scots are applying for places at Scottish universities, according to new figures.
The University and College Admissions Service (Ucas) also said 2.4 per cent of Scots were opting to study at home.

Overall applications to UK universities and colleges rose by 9.1 per cent last year.

In total, 540,108 people applied to sta
rt full-time undergraduate courses in autumn, up from 494,842 last year.

English applications rose 11 per cent, Welsh by 4.9 per cent and overall Scottish applications by 2.7 per cent.

Ucas attributed the bigger rises in England and Wales to the inclusion of nursing and midwifery diploma courses south of the Border for the first time.

The figures also showed a 6.4 per cent rise in non-UK applications, with the number of Chinese applications rising by 22.7 per cent.

Big increases in the number of applications from the newest European Union member states, such as Bulgaria and Romania, were repeated this year. However, most subjects saw a fall in applications due to a reduction in the number of choices available to applicants.

Applications to study anatomy, physiology and pathology fell by 28.8 per cent, aural and oral studies by 24.5 per cent, while archaeology fell 29.7 per cent.

A Scottish Government spokesman said: "We welcome the fact more Scots have applied for a place at university this year."

The University and College Union, which represents lecturers, claimed 2 per cent fewer English people were choosing to study in Scotland because they have to pay fees while Scots do not.





The full article contains 274 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 16 July 2008 9:16 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

AM2,

Scotland,UK 17/07/2008 01:21:47
I consider the SNP's decision to discriminate between English and Scottish students to be reprehensible, but is a 2 per cent decline statistically significant?
2

Abel Magwitch,

17/07/2008 01:38:22
How interesting that while the Scottish universities are supposed to be in dire straits (due to lack of cash,the brain drain and the like) there has been a 22.7 percent increase in applications from China, which is working its way up to become world economic leader. Can China learn something from Scotland?
3

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 17/07/2008 01:51:01
1

That's all right, lad, I consider most of what you write reprehensible as well.

More students applying for higher education and at the same time, the SNP ended the fees and made it easier to apply.

Could it be that the policy is working?

Only 2% you say, not very much you say.

Tell it to the lads and lassies who are benifitting from this policy.

By the way, lad, nothing stops those south of the border from having the same policy... other than greed and antipathy.
4

Scullion,

Canada 17/07/2008 02:02:57
What percentage actually graduates?
5

bring them on,

17/07/2008 04:45:53
Most of the courses on offer are a joke.

Might as well say, go and have a laugh for a few years. Don't worry if you don't learn anything useful, we won't let on and you can have a scroll as well.
6

fife runner,

17/07/2008 06:24:15
we also have the highest drop out rate. it seems snobbish to suggest that some are failures if they do not get to university. it demeans vocational qualifications.
7

fife runner,

17/07/2008 06:25:00
agree#5 it seems some courses are being offered just to people going to uni.
8

Guga II,

Rockall 17/07/2008 07:12:14
#1 AM Squared.

Here you go again. Why is it reprehensible for Scottish kids to get some assistance in their own country? Why is it, as an Irishman, you are always denigrating Scotland and the Scottish people? You expect us to kow-tow to your precious Union, and now you're even expecting us to discriminate against our own kids in favour of foreigners.
9

Janis B,

london 17/07/2008 07:29:22

But Guga EU students do not have to pay tuition fees at Scottish Universities, English students do. Isn't that discrimination?
10

donald,

glasgow 17/07/2008 07:57:03
You mean Anglicised Universities in Scotlandshire?
11

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 08:38:57
9

Rubbish! All Erasmus and Socrates students have to pay fees and a lot higher than the fees we pay! Where and how they get the money is open to debate but they definately pay fees!

Perhaps we should open it up further and claim that all students are being discriminated against all over the EU because they have to pay fees and Scottish students, in thier own country, don't? The SNP could be setting a precedent in that case then, which would open the gateway to all students to free uni education!
12

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 08:43:10
Also, if Erasmus and Socrates students don't pay the fees, then thier home country government is. That would, therefore, be the same as our government paying our fees, no?

Shall we claim discrimination at every quarter?
13

sm753,

17/07/2008 08:53:34
Dave from Barra and others:

The Nat policy discriminates specifically against those from England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Those from anywhere else in the EU are exempted from fees.

This CANNOT be justified on the basis of "reciprocity" as there are fees elsewhere in the EU: the German universities have been able to charge since 2005, and the French grandes ecoles have always been fee-paying.

Furthermore, if the Nats achieved their precious goal of independence then this policy would be illegal under EU rules; it is a cynical exploitation of their current devolved but not independent status.

And they "welcome" the news more Scots are studying at home, confirming my suspicion that the aim all along has been "keep the Scots at home and the rest of the Brits away". Can't have the kids finding out their neighbours are just like them, can we?

This is a crypto-racist policy and is the most disgusting aspect of this party, based on deception and the politics of resentment.
14

Fairfax,

17/07/2008 08:56:46
a proud doonhamer (3): "By the way, lad, nothing stops those south of the border from having the same policy... other than greed and antipathy."

I suspect you mean apathy rather than antipathy: a Freudian slip! However, how would Scotland react if English universities took you at your word and charged Scots students more than English students?
15

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 09:07:56
sm753

Erasmus and Socrates students still have to pay fees. Hope you understand that.
16

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 09:08:45
By the way, the English, Welsh and N Irish are the same race as us.
17

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 09:11:45
Beg your pardon, yes EU students don't have to pay fees. Apologies.

Under the Human Rights Act, English, Welsh and N Irish students can claim to be EU students.
18

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 09:14:38
I also note that we have to pay fees if a Scots student wants to study elsewhere in the UK, they have to pay fees and fees alot higher than what the English etc have to pay here.

Who is discriminating against who now?

Also, if a Scots student wants to study in the EU, they would have to fund it themselves unless they got onto Erasmus.

So really, who is discriminating against who? This is a wonderful thing they SNP have don, they have thrown the doors open to the flowers of Scotland and continetal students. Brilliant!
19

antifa,

17/07/2008 09:43:23
"I also note that we have to pay fees if a Scots student wants to study elsewhere in the UK, they have to pay fees and fees alot higher than what the English etc have to pay here. Who is discriminating against who now?"

Your brain doesn't work properly.
20

sm753,

17/07/2008 10:09:22
#18

"This is a wonderful thing they SNP have don, they have thrown the doors open to the flowers of Scotland and continetal students. Brilliant!"

...and committed an act of TARGETED DISCRIMINATION against those from the rest of the UK. Which would not be permitted if Scotland were "independent".

Why is this? How can it be justified?

Why is it "welcomed" that more Scots are studying at home? Wouldn't it be better for them to learn more of the world than their own parochial doorstep?

There are only two logical explanations. It's either discrimination on the basis of place of origin (which I call crypto-racism) or it's a calculated attempt to segregate Scots students from their fellow Britons in the hope this increases support for the Nats.

Or maybe it's both. Nice party you support.
21

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 17/07/2008 11:03:14
Save us from those undergraduates undertaking general arts, psychology, geography (unless they intend to teach), human kinetics (unless they become Olympians), and fine arts.

Useless degrees and won't get you a job anywhere except in some third-world backwater.
22

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 11:05:55
19 Tell me how my brain isn't working? The fees are higher in Enlgand than they are in Scotland. Fact.

"Why is it "welcomed" that more Scots are studying at home? Wouldn't it be better for them to learn more of the world than their own parochial doorstep?" - 20

So they Erasmus/EU/Rest of UK students get a parochial education here? Is that what you are saying? So we have an inferior uni education here?

Scots have to pay fees elsewhere in the UK to study, what is the difference? Perhaps England is discriminating against it's own students then by charging them fees?

Get a grip foolish people.

PS, who said I supported the SNP? I think you are a crypto-idiot.
23

sm753,

17/07/2008 11:20:13
#22

"Scots have to pay fees elsewhere in the UK to study, what is the difference?"

The difference (for the hard of thinking amongst us) is that the rest of the UK does not DISCRIMINATE against a particular target group - you pay fees if you are English, Scots, Welsh, Irish (north or south), French, German, Maltese, Estonian and so on and on.

The Nat administration is the only one I know of which has a policy of TARGETED DISCRIMINATION against those from other parts of its own country. It is the equivalent of Bavaria waiving fees only for Bavarians and other EU non-Germans, but charging those from the rest of Germany.

It is indefensible.

Noticeable that the usual Nat apologists who infest this place are silent. What's the matter? Struck dumb? Ashamed?

You should be.
24

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 11:23:38
Or, turning your argument on it's head,the rest of the UK discriminates against everybody by charging fees.

You are right of course, we should punish everybody by charging fees, especially Scots students that, factually, have less income behind them to facilitate uni education than other parts of the UK/EU. Yup.

I see you backtracked on your "parochial" argument. Good, it shows a modicum of intelligence.
25

sm753,

17/07/2008 11:44:34
#24 Mr Barra

I cannot believe I need to explain this. Let's take it very slowly.

It is, by definition, logically impossible to "discriminate against everybody" because if you do that you are not "discriminating"; you are treating everyone equally.

"Discrimination" occurs when you pick out one group for different treatment. Which is what the Nats have done.

Can you understand that? Hello?

And no, I haven't backtracked on anything. To repeat, why is it "welcomed" that more Scots are staying home to study? Isn't the point of university to broaden one's experience? Do we have something against them going to Bristol, Cardiff, Belfast - oh yes, and Oxbridge - mixing with their fellow Britons and discovering we're all pretty much alike?

And for that matter, why do YOU think:

"This is a wonderful thing they SNP have don, they have thrown the doors open to the flowers of Scotland and continetal students. Brilliant!"

So you yourself discriminate against anyone who isn't a "flower of Scotland" or (sic) "continetal".

Can I ask why? Do you have some sort of problem with someone's race or origins?
26

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 11:53:22
Crypto-idiot

"Can I ask why? Do you have some sort of problem with someone's race or origins"

No, why do you ask? What race am I and what is my origin?

Why stop at mixing with "fellow Britons"? Surely if we are all alike, and by your argument, by going to say Bristol or Cardiff, we are being just as parochial than if we stayed in Scotland. After all, we are all the same, arn't we?

Who have the Nats "discriminated" against? After all, if we are "all alike" then I might be the same "race" as the English Welsh and Irish, no? It cannot be discrimination on race grounds, it must be on Geographical grounds then, eh?

As for "broadening ones experience", I take it all those English, Welsh, Irish and EU students who CHOOSE to go to uni in thier own country and/or city/town are just as insular and parochial as a Scots student staying in Scotland?

Tell you what, you seem to have a problem about Scots getting into Uni without having to pay fees. You seem really negative about it. Is it possible you "hate" the Scots for getting something somebody else isn't?

Crypto-idiot, are you racist against the Scots?
27

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 11:58:55
"Discrimination" occurs when you pick out one group for different treatment. Which is what the Nats have done. - Crypto-idiot

Strangely, many countries all over the world use a form of discrimination to address a balance. It's called "Positive Discrimination". Such as free education to women, the men have to pay etc so on and so forth. Should we rally against all forms of discrimantion, real and percieved, in order to satisfy your obvious yearning for equality?
28

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 12:01:46
Wake up and smell the coffee!

If scots had to pay for university, the figures attending would be much lower than is now, giving free places to EU students reinforces the point.

To entice non eu students with a bribe of a 2 year workpermit for studying in scotland (which wasnt on offer to non eu students studying in England)again shows how bankrupt the scotch education system has become.

Scotch universities are dead in the water without British tax payers money.
29

Dave from Barra ©,

17/07/2008 12:02:11
"It is, by definition, logically impossible to "discriminate against everybody" because if you do that you are not "discriminating"; you are treating everyone equally." crypto-idiot

What an idiot! To discrimnate against everybody is called facism. Are you a facist?
30

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 12:04:15
"Scotch universities are dead in the water without British tax payers money" - well theres an oxymoron written by a moron.

If it's "British tax payers money" it is therefore Scottish money as well by proportion.

The same argument applies to English, Welsh and N Irish unis too. And for the record, N Irlenad get proportionally more spent on her than Scotland.
31

Dave from Barra ©,

17/07/2008 12:11:48
"To entice non eu students with a bribe of a 2 year workpermit for studying in scotland (which wasnt on offer to non eu students studying in England)again shows how bankrupt the scotch education system has become." the Wrong Answer

Really? It isn't to do with the fact that Scotland is a depopulating country and we have suffered the well known "brain drain" for decades and that we need bright highly educated people in the UK? (after all, the get a 2 year work visa which is for the WHOLE of the UK and invariably some Scots educated non EU students will head to other parts of the UK, so in fact, we are doing y'all a favour).
32

sm753,

17/07/2008 12:12:44
Mr Barra

The only discrimination going on here is that of the Nat administration against other British students. Under EU rules it is not allowed to discriminate against other EU citizens. If Scotland were an independent state then it would similarly not be allowed to discriminate against the UK.

Explain and justify this please. You seem to be arguing that "geographical" discrimination is OK. Mmm, discrimination on the basis of origin against one particular targeted group. You think that's acceptable?

I was asking for your attitudes because YOU said:

"This is a wonderful thing they SNP have don, they have thrown the doors open to the flowers of Scotland and continetal students. Brilliant!"

...implying you also have something against those who are not Scots or "continetal". What would that be, pray?
33

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 12:14:29
#30

"N Irlenad get proportionally more spent on her than Scotland"

Really? A link to you're source for proof that N Ireland's universities get more than Scotland would be interesting, but we both know you're talking cr*p.

34

hertscot,

17/07/2008 12:17:07
25 sm753,
You wrote
To repeat, why is it "welcomed" that more Scots are staying home to study? Isn't the point of university to broaden one's experience?

No the point of going to university is to get further education, or, at least that was the reason I went, if students are only going to broaden their experience, then they are wasting their own, and taxpayers money, and are probably the cause of high dropout numbers.
35

hertscot,

17/07/2008 12:17:16
25 sm753,
You wrote
To repeat, why is it "welcomed" that more Scots are staying home to study? Isn't the point of university to broaden one's experience?

No the point of going to university is to get further education, or, at least that was the reason I went, if students are only going to broaden their experience, then they are wasting their own, and taxpayers money, and are probably the cause of high dropout numbers.
36

hertscot,

17/07/2008 12:17:45
25 sm753,
You wrote
To repeat, why is it "welcomed" that more Scots are staying home to study? Isn't the point of university to broaden one's experience?

No the point of going to university is to get further education, or, at least that was the reason I went, if students are only going to broaden their experience, then they are wasting their own, and taxpayers money, and are probably the cause of high dropout numbers.
37

hertscot,

17/07/2008 12:18:36
Sorry about that
38

Upandunder,

17/07/2008 12:21:47
Agree #21.

Britain as a whole needs fewer universities and fewer UK citizens going to university. And more people going to shorter and cheaper vocation-based courses.

It is a disgrace that universities are raking money in from young people - leaving graduates with a) huge debts and b) a degree in a pointless subject.

The whole university system should be revamped, and degrees should be available only in vital disciplines ranging from engineering to the sciences, languages and the like.

Not "media studies" and all that nonsense. Too many degrees and too many people getting into debt. And more to the point, taxpayers should not be subsidising people who drink, smoke and eat pizza for three years and leave a red-brick with a Desmond or a Third.
39

Alan B,

17/07/2008 12:22:08
#AM2 "I consider the SNP's decision to discriminate between English and Scottish students to be reprehensible"

I really do not understand your comments, other than trying to create some daft argument against the snp.

Within the current constitutional settlement it is the resonspibility of the sp to whether to charge tution fees or not.

Westminster the parliament in charge of this for england decided to introduce tution fees for english students. That scottish mps can vote on an english matter is a democratic deficit of the uk constitution and something that should be address but not something you can lay at the door of the snp. Labour are to blame for that mess.

So the fact remains westminster raises tax to fund english education and english students and scotland gets a share under barnett to spend on scottish education.

What u seem to want is for scotland to spend part of its allocation on funding english students. This completely daft for 2 reasons.

1)a scottish student going to study in england would not get his fees by the english body and so it would be completely discriminatory and disadvantageous to scotland.
2)scotland being so much smaller than england and with about 10% of the budget being 10% of the size (i know the 10% is rough), would be expected to fund student using this english students using this much small budget. Barmy.

The solution to this is:
1)england scrap tution fees so not student in uk pays them
2)england is responsible for funding english students (this could be no matter where they study) and scotland her students out of their own budgets.

The reason english students pay tution fees it because westminster choose to bring this in. (The democractic deficit for england at westminster is a different issue).
40

Alan B,

17/07/2008 12:32:43
#38 Upandunder

Do not really agree with you regarding fewer universities and fewer students.

Most of the degrees which you advocate are vocational which i agree with. It was more the tradional red brick university degree that was meaningless in terms of the workplace and was more for educations sake.

I think most degrees in scotland are actually good and beneficial. The few that are not should be routed out. Degrees should be quite vocational tradional degree subjects like medicine or others.

In many ways the point of a degree going forward is to make a school leaver employable and allow them to get a good job and rewarding career.

One problem with you attitude of cutting the number of degree students is if others do not, scottish people that would otherwise have done a degree, will not be able to compete in the global job market with others that have even with the same underlying abilities.

You have to compete in the world we live rather than assume global companies and multinations that are big employers will suddenly decide that a scottish student on a short vocation course is the same as a degreed student from another european country.
41

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 12:36:26
#39

" 2)scotland being so much smaller than england and with about 10% of the budget being 10% of the size (i know the 10% is rough), "

Scots and % dont add up!


£7.5 billion British tax payers money to England
£1.6 billion British tax payers money to Scotland




"The Scottish Funding Council (SFC) distributes more than £1.6 billion to Scotland’s colleges and universities for teaching and learning, research and other activities in support of Scottish government priorities."

tinyurl.com/5dnp79


"The total HEFCE grant available for the 2008-09 academic year is £7,476 million."

tinyurl.com/5aruse



42

maximum,

Edinburgh 17/07/2008 12:45:05
Alan B
It is the fact that the SP chooses to charge other UK citizens a fee for attending their Universities. If they do not want to charge fees and fund higher education in another way than that is fine, up to them. But discriminating against people because of race is a little rude, is it not?
43

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 12:52:50
33 The Wrong Answer

I'll write this big so you can understand. WHERE DID I STATE THAT N IRLEANDS "UNIVERSITIES" GET MORE FUNDING?

YOU EVEN QUOTED ME AND I STATED N IRLEAND FULL STOP PERIOD END OF. NOT "UNIVERSITY".

ME THINKS YOU FELL OUT THE CRYPTO-STUPID TREE AND HIT ALL THE BRANCHES ON THE WAY DOWN.

Crypto-idiot

You seem content with your baseless views. I will leave you with one thought. Do you support the county wide discrimination that universities run insofar that they are outwith the reach of poor people? Or do you think they should NOT discriminate against poor people?

At the end of the day, if you don't like it, boycott Scottish universities. Don't go to them. Discourage people going to them. It's a "choice" not compulsory.
44

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 12:54:48
41 The Wrong Answer

Those figures are meaningless I'm afraid. We are allocated a budget every year from Westmonster and it is up to the SG on how it is spent. It is NOT up to Westmonster as it's a devolved issue and therefore not up to you either and therefore a meanigless stat.
45

sm753,

17/07/2008 12:55:05

Right, Mr Barra has gone off to struggle with the idea of basic logic and the dictionary definition of "discrimination", and we have another Nat apologist in the form of #39 AlanB. Perhaps you can help us:

Why do the Nats "welcome" the idea of more Scots students staying at home?

Why do the Nats financially discriminate against non-Scots Britons but NOT against non-Scots Europeans - something which would be barred by the EU under independence?

The only logical conclusion is that:

- the Nats see some advantage in keeping the Scots at home and other Brits away

- and/or they just hate the other Brits.

Justify this if you can.
46

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 13:00:24
- the Nats see some advantage in keeping the Scots at home and other Brits away

- and/or they just hate the other Brits. - Crypto Idiot

Where does it state that no other people other than Scots can go to university in Scotland?

It is now justified insofar as the English et al are treated here the same as the Scots are treated there i.e. pay up. Done.
47

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 13:01:01
- the Nats see some advantage in keeping the Scots at home and other Brits away

- and/or they just hate the other Brits. - Crypto Idiot

Where does it state that no other people other than Scots can go to university in Scotland?

It is now justified insofar as the English et al are treated here the same as the Scots are treated there i.e. pay up. Done.
48

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 13:01:02
- the Nats see some advantage in keeping the Scots at home and other Brits away

- and/or they just hate the other Brits. - Crypto Idiot

Where does it state that no other people other than Scots can go to university in Scotland?

It is now justified insofar as the English et al are treated here the same as the Scots are treated there i.e. pay up. Done.
49

sm753,

17/07/2008 13:01:12
Oh #34 and #38

I agree that the main point of university is a useful degree, and that in recent years we (the UK) has probably swung from having too few in higher education to too many.
50

sm753,

17/07/2008 13:04:50
O Mr Barra, still here and still failing to understand what "discrimination" is.

The Nats are the only administration in Europe to financially discriminate against students who originate from other parts of their own country, but NOT from other European countries. Something they wouldn't be allowed to do if they were independent.

Why is this? What is their motive?
51

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 13:06:35
It's called "positive discrimination" crypto idiot. And that is allowed.

Now, answer my question posed earlier. "Do you support the county wide discrimination that universities run insofar that they are outwith the reach of poor people? Or do you think they should NOT discriminate against poor people?"
52

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 13:08:27
Why is this? What is their motive? - crypto-idiot

You may see thier motive once you address the "poor" question.

And for the record, if Scotland chooses to become independant, she can do whatever she likes. If she chooses to enter the EU, then she would have to consider her position on this. Get it? Me thinks not.
53

sm753,

17/07/2008 13:09:29
One more time:

No, it is not justifiable or reciprocal.

In England, Wales, NI or the rest of the EU the rule is EITHER "pay up - done" for EVERYONE or "no fees - done" for EVERYONE.

Only in Nat Scotland is it "No fees - done; oh, except for you, you and you non-Scottish Brits".

Defend the indefensible, please. It's either prejudice or some nefarious plan to keep Scots and other Brits apart.
54

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 13:10:28
Boo hoo. Don't go to uni in Scotland then.

Now, answer the question or p!ss off defeated.
55

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 13:16:49
#54

10% of scots elect to study in English universities.

1% of English elect to study in scotch universities.

£.0 for a scot to study in scotsland

£3000 a year for a scot to study in England, seems to me the brightest 10% go south for an education.
56

sm753,

17/07/2008 13:18:43
Mr Barra

"It's called "positive discrimination" crypto idiot. And that is allowed."

It's not positive anything, because it is singling out one small group (non-Scots Brits) for worse treatment than the REST OF THE EU. Got it?

"Now, answer my question posed earlier. "Do you support the county wide discrimination that universities run insofar that they are outwith the reach of poor people?"

Ooo, a transparent attempt to avoid my question with an irrelevant one of your own. I asked mine first, pal.

"And for the record, if Scotland chooses to become independant, she can do whatever she likes. If she chooses to enter the EU, then she would have to consider her position on this."

Truer to say that with policies like that in place Scotland would be barred from entry into the EU. Because policies like that were tried out in the 30s, and didn't turn out so well, did they?
57

Janis B,

london 17/07/2008 13:18:43

Oh Poster 54 that's exactly what is happening according to the article. More EU students for Scottish Uni's, less English/Welsh students. That "discrimination' will be leading to less money for Scots University coffers.
58

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 13:19:53
55

Uh huh? And? Goes to show you that crypto-idiots argument of discimination doesn't hold fast then, does it?

10% of Scots and 1% of English, in number terms, is the same.

Again, you fail to make a point, ifact you managed to undermine crypto-idiots point. Glay va.
59

maximum,

Edinburgh 17/07/2008 13:20:58
David
I think you could benefit from some further education. Firstly it is discriminatory. Parking it under the 'positive discrimination' banner is a little ridiculous given that it applies to an entire country. Secondly, of course it would be great if all barriers to a university education were removed. However, this policy is not means tested, it is decided on race not wealth.
60

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 13:23:03
Janis

uh huh. Yes but they have to pay higher fees to study in England etc than if they were to study in Scotland. Therefore, in reality, they do themselves a disservice by not coming to Scotland.

Nobody willing to answer the "poor" question then.

PS Janis, applications are all up, so it's all good. What type of person or where they are from is meaningless.
61

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 13:24:46
59

I'm shrugging shoulders to your comment. It means little in context I'm afraid.
62

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 13:26:14
#58

"10% of Scots and 1% of English, in number terms, is the same"


10% is 10 times greater than 1%

you really are a fool!
63

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 13:27:46
The Wrong Answer

According to your stat "10% of Scots and 1% of English"

Therefore, 10% of 5 million is? And 1% of 50 million is?

Answers on the back of The Answers head, he may learn something.
64

maximum,

Edinburgh 17/07/2008 13:29:03
I shall give it another go. The issue with the policy is not about wealth. If it were means tested, i.e. poor UK residents don't pay, wealthy ones do or no one paid fees then no one would be on here discussing it. The problem is it discriminates on racial grounds, which is simply wrong.
65

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 13:31:08
64

Never said anything about a policy of wealth. But discrimination is discrimination no matter how you dress it up, no?

By the way, how is it on racial grounds when we are all the same race in the UK?
66

sm753,

17/07/2008 13:39:12
65

"But discrimination is discrimination no matter how you dress it up, no?"

Yes, and a policy which is discriminatory IN PRINCIPLE remains discriminatory regardless of the numbers of people who are, in the end, affected.

Let's try again:

- why do the Nats "welcome" more Scots studying at home?

- why do they financially discriminate against non-Scots Brits and NOT against non-Scots Europeans?

They are either prejudiced or trying to engineer some electoral benefit. Or both.

Is there anyone out there who can defend this?

I'm off for a bit. Bye for now.
67

maximum,

Edinburgh 17/07/2008 13:40:29
65
You were nattering on about the poor, hence i assumed you had a point to make about wealth in relation to this policy.
The SP has made a racial distinction, if you are from England, you are different and you have to pay. This is very simple.
68

Brian Hill,

17/07/2008 13:41:33
An excellent lesson on how to manipulate figures, in this case to make you look smarter than the rest of the country...include previous diploma course with university course....sorted!

"Ucas attributed the bigger rises in England and Wales to the inclusion of nursing and midwifery diploma courses south of the Border for the first time."

Wonder how many other English based stats have been equally doctored to make England look as if it's been subsidising Scotland since the Romans and that Scottish Oil actually ran out in 2003.....ooops, slipped up there, Smithers slight readjustment need...make that 2013...
69

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 13:43:38
Crypto idiot

When you investigate and answer the question of "poor students" and "poverty in Scotland", then you may come to an understadning at least as to what the Nats are doing for Scottish students.

Until we get concrete evidence of actual racial discrimination (which we never will as they are not and can never do so as a region of Britain), keep your conspiracy theories under wraps.
70

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 13:46:34
67

"If you are from England you have to pay". So England is an identifiable nation and the English are an identifiable race destinct from ourselves?

Really? Even though the Scots are NOT an identifiable nation desticnt and seperate but actually a REGION of the UK. So, in fact, this is regionalism, no worse than say Yorkshire offering free uni fee's to the students of Yorkshire. I see no harm in that, do you?
71

maximum,

Edinburgh 17/07/2008 13:53:21
David, When you lie in bed wondering why the majoity of us do not support independance, you need think no longer, it is of the likes of you. Until you take you blinkers off and start to use reason then perhaps you will notice that not all government policies are good, regardless of where they come from. You need to look in colour rather than black and white. Policies based on discrimination have no place in a modern society such as ours.
72

maximum,

Edinburgh 17/07/2008 13:54:53
Yes, I see harm in Yorkshire Universities offering no fees for yorkshire folk. As a society we should not discriminate, as simple as that Dave.
73

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 13:57:37
maximum

That was as funny as. Sadly you cannot see that Scotland is still a region of the UK and Salmond has used a legal loophole to get round this discrimination thing. We are the same race as the rest of the UK, this is regionalism, not racism.

"Policies based on discrimination have no place in a modern society such as ours."

Therefore, in that case, shall we remove certain discriminatory laws such as the disbility act (that entitles disabled people an automatic interview for jobs) and anything else that promotes an imbalance such as maternity leave etc?

It's regionalism, not racism. Get used to it. It has fek all to do with independance (which is not part of the question anyway).
74

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 13:59:49
72

Oh well, we will have to agree to disagree on that one then. It wouldn't bother me if Yorkshire, from thier own fudning, waived the uni fees to help increase thier education levels and earning potential for her peoples if it helped with certain historical problems such as poverty, crime etc etc.
75

maximum,

Edinburgh 17/07/2008 14:07:34
Regionalism, discrimination, bad. I cannot put it simpler. Free University Education should be the right of all, we should not discriminate against other regions and charge them. As was pointed out we should be encouraging all to come to Scotland, from all regions of the UK, learn and hopefully stay and prosper. This policy supports to worst type of bigotry and regionalism. Legal loophole, you said it yourself, it is wrong, without the hole in the law Salmond wouldn't be able to do it. hopefully someone will plug it.
76

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 14:19:08
So you think we need to unpick a whole raft of laws that "positively discriminate"?

Of course Salmond is using the loophole, we all know he's a slippery customer and of course if we became independant, we would have to consider our position on that. As it happens just now, as I believe, he is trying to address some historical problems in Scotland that of poor education, poverty, crime etc and a massive key to combating that is a good education. Surely surely surely we should be grateful that, at least, our poorest students get a crack at the whip? That can only be a good thing, no? Just like disabled people getting first crack at the whip jobs wise, no?
77

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 14:19:40
#74 Daft from a barr

10% (2,260) of Scots first degree graduates obtained there first degree in England
1% (3,240) of English first degree graduates obtained there first degree in Scotland

2007-2007 Qualifiers (first degree)

22,265 First Degree awards to Scots studying in Scotland

2,260 (10% of 22,265) First Degree awards to Scots studying in England

40 First Degree Awards to Scots studying in Wales

10 First Degree Awards to Scots studying in N Ireland


24,575 Total (9% of all first degree awards UK)

*


217,830 First Degree Awards to English studying in England

3,240 (1% of 217,830)First Degree Awards to English studying in Scotland

7,205 First Degree Awards to English studying in Wales


70 First Degree Awards to English studying in N Ireland


228,345 Total (83% of all first degree awards UK)
78

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 14:25:29
The Wrong Answer

So you managed to prove my point that 10% of Scots and 1% of English amounts, in numbers terms, to the same numbers of students? Well, in actual fact, it's more for the English so therefore, the English students that took out 1st degrees in Scotland out number the Scots in England.

Good, thanks for that. You got thier eventually and too boot, showed exactly how the English are NOT turning away from Scotlands universities.

Thanks you for that, ever so grateful.
79

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 14:30:08
#78
you're crazy

England is more than 10 times the population of Scotland.

Just accept the fact , that more % of scots need to travel to England for an education.
80

Alan B,

17/07/2008 14:31:36
#maximum

I really do not understand your point regarding the scottish parliament not funding english students.

"The SP has made a racial distinction"
That is wrong. Someone english living in scotland will get their tution fees paid in scotland. It is not racial but where you live.

The point is the scottish parliament gets funding from westmisnter via barnett that is used for funding scottish education.

Westmister directly funds education for english students (ie students living in england not necessarily where u are born).

Why should the scottish budget for education be used to fund english students ie students from england when that is what the english educational budget is for.

The fact is if scotland funded english students the only student discriminated against would be scottish students studying in england. As neither the scottish or english budget would pick up their tution fees.

It makes no sense for the scottish budget to pay for english students or the english budget pay for scottish students. Yes argue about the democractic deficits or barnett etc which are the real issues and problems.

The fact is with england 10 times the size and u wanted scotlands budget to finance english students in scotland and vice versa in england you could have major issues with the scottish budget proportional smaller than englands.

At the end of the day the reason english students pay tution fees is down to the democractically elected government as westminster.
81

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 14:32:28
Speaking of Regionlism that some people don't seem to like. Wales have free prescription charges for those living in Wales.

Should that be scrapped then? Since, for example, those living just accross the border in, say Chester, cannot benefit from them? That's discriminatory, isn't it? And a lot more serious than a wee uni fee or 2 as well since health issues effects everybody on these islands.

How far do you want to take this?
82

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 14:36:19
79

I'm giving you a big clap for stating the obvious and for getting thier in the end. Well done.

The reason why a larger "%" of Scots need to leave for uni education? Well let me see. As a % and being 10 times smaller than England, as you thankfully pointed out, our % of migrant students will always be larger than Enlgish "%". As for actualy numbers, and this is the crazy part, it's actually smaller.

Sadly, we will have to leave"%" out of this as we are dealing with a finite NUMBER of uni spaces (as apposed to percentage). Therefore, if 3,000 students from England come here, there are 3,000 fewer spaces for the Scots.

Understand the difference? Just bang thrice on the floor if you do....
83

Alan B,

17/07/2008 14:37:36
#Janis

"That "discrimination' will be leading to less money for Scots University coffers."

How? You post does not make sense.
84

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 14:38:52
BTW The Answer

Is it "need to travel" (because there are 3,000 fewer spaces because of English students) or is it "want to travel" (because they don't want a parochial education from thier home region)?
85

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 14:42:39
Alan B,17/07/2008 14:31:36

So you're happy to see British tax payers money be used to provide free education to EU students, but against British tax payers money being used to finance English student's.
86

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 14:45:17
85

When the SG recieve it's budget at the start of every financial year, it becomes Scotlands money (worked out from a long dead formula based on oil and other stuff).

It is, therefore, no longer British Tax payers money when it comes into the SG's recievership.

Is that fair enough?
87

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 14:46:52
Really, by my own and The Answers argument, it's the Scots that should be p_eed off with this as the SG is spending valuable financial resources on teaching non scots studetns instead of spending it on things like free prescriptions (like Wales) and stuff.

Now I'm angry, I'm writing to my MSP to demand that they scrap the free fees and put that money into other projects!
88

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 14:47:14
#84

1 out of every 2 eu students that apply to scottish universities get a place in scottish universities.

1 out of 3 scottish students that apply to scottish universities get a place.

Harriot Watt for example would rather give a place to an eu student over an student resident in edinburgh , because the eu student will live in the student accomadation for the first year at least, whilst the scot will most likely stay with his mum and dad.

It's about the money!

89

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 14:51:02
88

Ok, we can agree it's about the money! And that is a particularly devious image you have made there! I like your thnking!
90

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 14:51:22
dave from a bar and alan b?

Why is it that a far lower % of scotch population manage to qualify for university , when compaired against the english population , imagine how lower the figures would be if the scots had to pay.?
91

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 17/07/2008 14:57:29
Than Answer

As I have been suggesting for a while now, Scots have a historical problem of poverty and sickness. That leads to crime and more poverty. One of the recognised ways of curbing grass root levels of crime and poverty? Education.

"imagine how lower the figures would be if the scots had to pay.?" - The Answer

Absolutely, totally agree.