Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

 
 
Saturday, 5th July 2008

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the The Scotsman site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Sign In
Register

'Wee Frees' want their own schools



Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 31 March 2008
By TIM BUGLER
FAITH schools based on hardline Presbyterian principles should be introduced, according to the Free Church of Scotland.
The "Wee Frees" say they want their own schools to be re-established in Scotland.

Scotland's Presbyterian churches gave up their schools to be run by the state in the late 19th century.

Though the Roman Catholic Church and the Scottish Episcopal Church retained stronger ties, their schools are owned and controlled by local education authorities, not the churches.

Now the editor of the Free Church of Scotland's official magazine, the Reverend David Robertson, said it is time to return to education delivered on religious lines.

He has written to the First Minister as part of Mr Salmond's national conversation.





The full article contains 123 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 30 March 2008 9:30 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

31/03/2008 00:05:41
Absolutely not! No more abusive brainwashing of children...
2

Robert,

Kirriemuir 31/03/2008 01:52:34
Why not? The RCs have theirs and so do the Moslims, to mention but two groups, and they are also State maintained! It all helps to ensure secretarianism which adds to our boring daily conversations! At least we won't be disturbed by loud music from the Wee Frees!
3

madrab,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 07:44:07
Don't see why not, as long as no state funds are given to these schools.

None of my tax should be spent miseducating children in this fashion.
4

Boy Wonder,

31/03/2008 08:32:19
Faith schools should be discontinued. All religion should be taken out of schools and children should not be subjected to these superstitions until they're old enough to understand what they're all about.
5

Duncan in Edinburgh,

31/03/2008 08:59:04
Well done the Wee Frees. There is no logical argument against this as long as we continue to support other varieties of religious indoctrination. The more churches attempt to jump on this bandwagon, the sooner it will come off the rails. (Apologies for the mixed metaphor there.)

I'll be fascinated to hear the FM's response to this, as he negotiates his way between the rock and the hard place.
6

revenger,

31/03/2008 09:11:53
Not in favour of faith schools but how come the description "hardline Presbyterian principles" is applied to Protestants when they never refer to "hardline catholic" schools?
Are we supposed to believe catholic schools are tolerant of other beliefs?
Mind you, see the writers name now, Tim Bugler, is that a nom de plume, like Pat Roller?
7

roadstohell,

31/03/2008 10:04:31
Aye let em have their own schools. They can ignore the theory of evolution and modern cosmology & astronomy, in fact anything that does not fit in with their beliefs. No need to worry about the state funding these schools, as the Free Presbyterian church is, pro rata membership, even richer than the vatican. Thanks to the "Forsyth bequest", where the owner of Forsyths department stores left the church his fortune in his will, and the money has beeen carefully invested with typical scots prudence & probity.
"Oh my, we are all miserable sinners, the purpose of life is to prepare us for our death and the weighing of our souls on the divine scales, oh woe oh misery, oh the sin , the sin"
8

Duncan in Edinburgh,

31/03/2008 10:08:06
Of course there would be no sex allowed at these schools, as it can lead to dancing.
9

Curious Yellow,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 10:12:22
Let them have their own schools - just keep them in the outer reaches of the Outer Hebrides where they can't bother other people. Better still - make them 7 day a week compulsory....
10

Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 31/03/2008 10:14:00
#8 Duncan

You unthinking clod! You made me spill my coffee.
11

roadstohell,

31/03/2008 10:23:12
These "ayatollahs's of the north" have very strange ideas, as you say, dancing & music are the "work of the devil". I remember attending an FP marriage in Glasgow, in which the Minister explained that "even in marriage, the sin of fornication existed, sadly it was a by product of bringing forth children. However this sin would be compounded if the act were to be enjoyed" he said warningly. Oh the sin, the sin it is everywhere, prepare now for the moment of your death, oh misery oh woe. Mind you, if you drive on Sunday, that is OK, if you are going to the FP church, and if you are a Minister you have the God given right to ignore road traffic regulations, including ignoring the red lights at level crossings and putting everyone in danger as " I am doing God's work,a dn I will not be bound by the laws of man"------- this is NOT made up it was the mans defence in court, and he fully expected to be exonerated !!!!!!!
12

donald,

glasgow 31/03/2008 10:38:57
Save us. No more divisive Acts.
13

Pontificatus Maximus of Avignon,

31/03/2008 10:44:54
Perhaps there should be five main types of State school to meet Robertson's aim.
Christian schools, Muslim schools, Jewish Schools. Other (Buddhists, Taoists etc) and Atheist Schools.
By my reckoning that should produce about 20 - 30 sub-types of school to cater for the different sects and cults within each main type Each would need its own Directorate and promoted post structure within each local authority and school so just think of the jobs for the boys to be created.

Perhaps Roberston should go back to the drawing board and start again.
He could begin with twinning his congregation at St Peter's in Dundee with St Peter's in Rome. I am certain the minister of St Peter's in Rome (Rev Ratzinger, (lately Hitlerjugend) would be very interested in the undertaking which ministers of the Free Church sect have to give upon ordination / induction in regard to the Catholic faith.
Perhaps someone from that sect could publish that undertaking here as a model of inter-denominational harmony?
Pax Vobiscum!
14

roadstohell,

31/03/2008 11:08:18
#13, Mhhhh I doubt if the FP's wouuld find this acceptable, "oh the sin, the sin, misery woe & sin"
15

yolanda,

31/03/2008 12:30:19
School should be a place of education, not faith. As part of that education, they could study the differences between various religions to educate themselves about the world around them, but the schools themselves should not be preaching any form of religion. If parents want their children to follow the teachings of a particular religion, they should take the time to do it at home and through the church.
16

Guga II,

Rockall 31/03/2008 12:30:24
I agree with Cankers that such schools are purely for the purpose of brainwashing children. However, whilst I don't often agree with #5 Duncan, he has a valid point. The more of these sectarian schools we have, then the more that assorted churches and religious groups will attempt to jump on the bandwagon, and eventually the whole things will come off the rails.

Incidentally Duncan, while I was at school I must have been a wee bit backward. I got got so involved with the sex that I never progressed to the dancing.
17

Calum Crubag,

31/03/2008 12:47:04
#15 - aye, that's in the law. In Dalkeith, at the shared campus, the Catholic head forbade even the teachers in the staffroom to mix with their 'non-dom' colleagues. She said that if the children mixed in the playground the Cathlolic kids' morals would be corrupted!

Religion is a curse. Ban ALL these schools. Teach children to think and enquire, not just follow unproveable ancient folklore.
18

Alba Abú,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 13:03:06
#6 "Are we supposed to believe that Catholic schools are tolerant of other beliefs"? The answer to that is YES. In Scotland many children of other faiths and no faith attend Catholic schools without any problems.I am reliably informed that the Catholic schooling system is the best in the country and this may explain why many parents of all religions and none send their children to these schools. However I detect in your post some old fashioned Scottish anti-Catholic sectarianism.I was of the belief that this type of 17th century bigotry was on the way out of our country. Obviously not! We can only hope that people like you will grow up,and live and let live.This anti Catholic poison is a shame on our nation.
19

Alba Abú,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 13:06:09
#15 World class post!
20

roadstohell,

31/03/2008 13:25:41
"Everyone is guilty of sin and deserves to be punished in hell for ever."

http://www.fpchurch.org.uk/

Oh the sin, the sin, prepare now for the moment of your death!!!!
21

danielrober,

31/03/2008 14:10:06
I was always told it was my duty to use my talents to the best of my ability. If a school is openned up down here in London it will be flooded with Scots and Anglo-Scots kids.
22

roadstohell,

31/03/2008 14:13:33
Sin, sin & more sin !!!!!!
23

roadstohell,

31/03/2008 14:15:31
http://www.fpchurch.org.uk/congregations/UK/England/London.php
Zoar chapel Varden street E1
Sinners particularly welcomed
24

Stickman,

31/03/2008 14:17:26
Catholic schools may well be known to have better discipline and academic results, but if non-denominational schools learned what it is that works, and applied it to their own educational establishments, there would likely be an improvement in schools generally. RC schools seem better prepared to educate than some others, but this is unlikely to be due to the religious aspect of their teachings. It is more likely about common courtesy, respect, and an enthusiasm for learning. Any teaching and learning environment can achieve that if they are willing and equipped to do it. If the Catholic schools do it well, there should be lessons learned. It doesn't mean that schools have to be religious based to produce good teaching methods, discipline, and pupils who want to learn.
25

roadstohell,

31/03/2008 14:18:26
It is lawful for all sorts of people to marry, who are able with judgment to give their consent. Yet it is the duty of Christians to marry only in the Lord: and therefore such as profess the true reformed religion should not marry with infidels, papists, or other idolaters: neither should such as are godly be unequally yoked, by marrying with such as are notoriously wicked in their life, or maintain damnable heresies.
26

roadstohell,

31/03/2008 14:26:41
Church censures are necessary, for the reclaiming and gaining of offending brethren, for deterring of others from the like offences, for purging out of that leaven which might infect the whole lump,
27

roadstohell,

31/03/2008 14:28:22
Popish monastical vows of perpetual single life, professed poverty, and regular obedience, are so far from being degrees of higher perfection, that they are superstitious and sinful snares, in which no Christian may entangle himself.
28

roadstohell,

31/03/2008 14:30:10
much less hath the Pope any power and jurisdiction over them in their dominions, or over any of their people; and, least of all, to deprive them of their dominions, or lives, if he shall judge them to be heretics, or upon any other pretence whatsoever.
29

roadstohell,

31/03/2008 14:32:05
All of the above are directly quoted from the "confession of faith" of the FP church, see http://www.fpchurch.org.uk/index.htm.

I do NOT adhere to these views, but have brought them to your attention , so that you can judge the type of persons that we are talking about here
30

roadstohell,

31/03/2008 14:33:10
Do you still think the schools would be flooded by scots & anglo scots kids ? #22
Mhhh no thanks
31

danielrober,

31/03/2008 15:12:30
Yep. Though it will be one heck of an entertaining debate at the school gates. My partners Catholic.
32

Freedom for Scotland,

31/03/2008 17:37:45
It is NOT the role of the state to provide religious education. Those parents who wish to educate their children on matters of religion and faith are perfectly entitled to do so in their homes and churches.
They are NOT entitled to use the apparatus of the state to do so.
33

Vincent-W,

31/03/2008 21:11:06
#33 - if a significant proportion of taxpayers wish to have the choice, then the State might consider providing that choice?

Also there are some flaws in your stated idea that a specific moral code should only be supported in some aspects of a childs life and not all, division of home and school is a very peculiar notion, the school and home should give a consistent approach.

There are many oddities about the current Scottish system, but my experiences and those of my children have been very positive, and strangely go counter to many of the misgivings I had when I originally came to Scotland. Ho hum - sometimes imperfect systems can give exceptional opportunities.
34

Sanny,

Portugal 31/03/2008 23:18:57
Schools should inculcate factual information of the world we live in now. Not some superstitious nonsense about the next(?) world that we shall go to when we die, as die we must; no one can show a vestige of proof that it exists.
35

Jo Jo,

03/04/2008 13:24:12
Surely in this One Scotland Many Cultures that the Executive are keen to promote they cannot then endorse a system of schooling that favours one faith.
Is that not discriminatory towards other faiths?
You euther have state funded schools for all the major religions now prevalent in Scotland or none at all.

In days gone by the Education Act safeguarded the rights of the Catholic minority and served its purpose.

However nearly 100 years later society has thankfully changed for the better and we have more integration and more minority religions and cultures than ever before.

What gives the Catholic Church the right to have an exclusive teaching system funded by the tax payer that the other religions cannot have?

You either have one education system for all religions or you cater for all religions.

You cannot keep the status quo and then demand tolerance and integration whilst treating one minority grouping differently from others.
36

JackJ,

03/04/2008 13:38:09
Question to the "journalist" Tim Bugler

At which point did the "Wee Frees" say anything about "hardline"?

They didn't did they?

Now, why would you name that faith "hardline"?
37

JackJ,

03/04/2008 13:39:28
36

Indeed. If they are refused, then questions will need to be asked.
38

adam murray,

Windmillhill 03/04/2008 13:39:38
A few posters on here have stated that RC schools perform better than non-dom Do the have any statistics to verify these claims?
39

STEADFAST,

Vanguardbears.com 03/04/2008 14:00:35
#39.

Would it be this list you are thinking of Adam?

It blows the RC perspective out of the window with regards to their schooling being superior - the Nazi's tried a similar thing 70 odd years ago and look what happened to them.

It's worth noting that there is only one RC school in the top 50 of best perfoming ones dated October 2006.

Facts? Here's one. RC's lie.

1 Jordanhill School Glasgow Non Denominational
2 Williamwood High School Clarkston Non Denominational
3 Cults Academy Aberdeen Non Denominational
4 Mearns Castle High School Newton Mearns Non Denominational
5 Banchory Academy Banchory Non Denominational
6 St Ninians High School Giffnock RC
7 Anderson High School Lerwick Non Denominational
8 Gryffe High School Gryffe Non Denominational
9 Linlithgow Academy Linlithgow Non Denominational
10 Dunblane High School Dunblane Non Denominational
11 Boroughmuir High School Edinburgh Non Denominational
12 The Royal High School Edinburgh Non Denominational
13 Douglas Academy Milngavie Non Denominational
14 James Gillespie's High School Edinburgh Non Denominational
15 North Berwick High School North Berwick Non Denominational
16 Aberdeen Grammar School Aberdeen Non Denominational
17 Bearsden Academy Bearsden Non Denominational
18 Lenzie Academy Lenzie Non Denominational
19 Westhill Academy Westhill Non Denominational
20 Peebles High School Peebles Non Denominational
21 Balfron High School Balfron Non Denominational
22 Breadalbane Academy Aberfeldy Non Denominational
23 Castle Douglas High School Castle Douglas Non Denominational
24 Balerno High School Edinburgh Non Denominational
25 Glen Urquhart High School Drumnadrochit Non Denominational
26 Ullapool High School Ullapool Non Denominational
27 Gourock High School Gourock Non Denominational
28 Gairloch High School Gairloch Non Denominational
29 Wallace Hall Academy Dumfriesshire Non Denominational
30 Fortrose Academy Fortrose Non Denominational
31 Kinross High School Kinross
40

STEADFAST,

Vanguardbears.com 03/04/2008 14:01:49
To add to the list above......

32 Ellon Academy Ellon Non Denominational
33 Mackie Academy Stonehaven Non Denominational
34 Belmont Academy Ayr Non Denominational
35 Earlston High School Earlston Non Denominational
36 Turnbull High School Glasgow Non Denominational
37 Moffat Academy Moffat Non Denominational
38 Alford Academy Alford Non Denominational
39 Knox Academy Haddington Non Denominational
40 Grove Academy Dundee Non Denominational
41 Largs Academy Largs Non Denominational
42 Madras College St Andrews Non Denominational
43 Monifieth High School Monifieth Non Denominational
44 Eastwood High School Newton Mearns Non Denominational
45 Webster's High School Angus Non Denominational
46 Boclair Academy Bearsden Non Denominational
47 Oldmacher Academy Aberdeen Non Denominational
48 Greenock Academy Greenock Non Denominational
49 Kirkudbright Academy Kirkudbright Non Denominational
50 Craigmount High School Edinburgh Non Denominational
41

adam murray,

Windmillhill 03/04/2008 15:13:03
Yes Steadfast THOSE are facts Would Alba Abu from post 19 care to comment on them?
42

Jo Jo,

03/04/2008 15:22:21
#19

Propoganda and hearsay

"I am reliably informed"

Well i am reliably informed that without any facts to back up your PR statement you are indeed talking nonsense.

The poster Steadfast however has indeed provided facts which dispute your fanciful claims.

What say you to that Alba Abu?
43

Paisley Pirate,

03/04/2008 17:21:35
Let me get this right here, the very first paragraph read as follows

FAITH schools based on hardline Presbyterian principles should be introduced, according to the Free Church of Scotland.


Hardline?????

Why are they hardline? Are they any more hardline than RC schools? So it now appears the majority population of Scotland should not be entitled to their own faith schools.

Indeed it now appears to be an almost dirty word when a reporters says "Presbyterian"

I would urge the C.O.S to follow the Wee frees and demand separate schools for their children as well. If it's good enough for the children of the minority religions, then surely no one can complain if the majority follow suit...right?

Think it's about time the anti Presbyterian bigotry came to an end and parity was given to these people of Scotland.
44

Paisley Pirate,

03/04/2008 17:24:08
19 said

I am reliably informed that the Catholic schooling system is the best in the country and this may explain why many parents of all religions and none send their children to these schools.

Can you tell us who this informant was or where the information came from? If it's fact, then it should be widely available online for you to research.

Propaganda that Goebells would have been proud of.
45

,

03/04/2008 23:54:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
46

Dan22,

04/04/2008 10:11:29
Reading some of the above posts really does bring home the depressing reality of Anti Catholicism in our country.
It seems many people have not noticed the continuous moral decline of our young people in Scotland
I for one am in favour of ANY Faith School in Scotland.
Learing right from wrong,loving your neighbour and feeling bad when you have hurt your fellow man are not bad lessons to learn in a School enviroment.
Some may argue these lessons should be learned in the home, I Agree they should and it does happen in some homes, but it does not happen in enough homes.
If our children are receiveing a strong Moral education at home or school or even better both then we have a chance of address this decline.
Nothing is guaranteed however the odds will be significantly higher.
Throughout the world Catholic schools offer this as a supplement to their academic curriculum, not instead of. Lets do the same in Scotland! afterall, over the years our tax dollar has paid for at lot worse things than the education and well being of our children.
47

JackJ,

04/04/2008 10:31:26
47

Where are these anti Catholic posts?

You talk of the moral decline of our young people in Scotland, while telling us how good RC Schools are.

Are you in fact daying that it's the moral decline of Non Catholics?

If that his the case, what do you base this information on?

One should add here that schools primary function is to educate people.

Looking at your grasp of English, that aspect was sadly failing in your school.
48

JackJ,

04/04/2008 10:36:39
Posts 7,8,9, 11 and more are bigoted anti Protestant posts.
49

Dukie,

Glasgow, England 04/04/2008 10:39:52
Yes #47, our tax dollars (or tax pounds as I prefer to call them) would be better spent on separating kids at 5 years old, telling them they are different from other kids in their street and exposing them to the biggest paedophile ridden organisation the world has ever known!

You are deluded sir.

Seperate schools are fiscal madness of the highest order.
50

Jo Jo,

04/04/2008 10:45:20
What is interesting is that as per usual there is a for and against split for Faith schools.

The for argument offers NO facts to substantiate the claims that RC schools are so much better etc etc.
The for argument also descends in to petty Sectarian bating of the Free Presbytarian Faith and its followers.
Is that religious tolerance...the same tolerance we are TOLD to give to other faiths?

The counter argument funnily enough provides facts like the favouring of one faith over others.Showing school results to blow apart the myth that RC schools out perform Non denominational schools.

Like i said earlier.

A faith is to be respected no matter what it is.

However to favour one minority religion over another at the expense of the taxpayer is morally wrong.It is also dscriminatory and some would argue that it is in itself a form of legalised Sectarianism.
51

Johnny G,

04/04/2008 10:50:14
47
You state

"If our children are receiveing a strong Moral education at home or school or even better both then we have a chance of address this decline."

"In 1999 a doctoral student at Edinburgh University, Michael Rosie, showed that almost one in three of prisoners within the Scottish prison system (30%) is Roman Catholic while only 15% of the Scottish population are Roman Catholic."



"The assumption that Catholic schools are more successful is also being challenged. Last month The Sunday Times published figures which appeared to show that they actually lagged behind non-denominational schools in a straight comparison of higher results."



"An Observer article in 1989 quoted statistics which showed that although Catholics made up 16% of the population in Scotland, they accounted for 35% of the prison population."

52

Paisley Pirate,

04/04/2008 12:17:50
The anti Protestant posts here are very disturbing and to be frank, very patronising in the extreme.

The people advocating RC schooling, appear to be very anti anyone else having equal rights or parity with the minority RC population.

If it's acceptable for Muslims, RC's and the Jewish children to have their own schools, why not the majority of the Scottish children?

As for the decline in moral standards (Except RC children) that really is on a par with Goebells and the nazis.

To say that non RC children have lesser morals than RC kids is utterly disgusting and sectarian apartheid at its very worst.

Shame on the bigots who support separate schools for one religion, but deny others the same benefits.

And they say Scotland is anti Catholic, it appears anti Protestant bigotry is alive and kicking. I've have a revolutionary concept that may well work in Scotland... Why not educate all of the children, regardless of religion in the one school? You know? neighbours, black and white, Muslim and Catholic all playing as one.

Or would that upset the fascist religious zealots?
53

Paisley Pirate,

04/04/2008 14:31:01
Rather strange when presented with facts and figures, the bigots disappear rather quickly.

Equal rights and Parity should be a given in Scotland!

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
RSS Feed of this article's comments
Delivery formats: RSS, Atom, Javascript & Email
 
  

 
 


Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.