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Trams not on budget and not on time

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Published Date: 20 May 2009
EDINBURGH'S beleaguered trams system is today officially confirmed as being behind schedule and over budget.
Richard Jeffrey, the new chief executive of tram firm TIE, has conceded the mammoth task of delivering a showpiece tram line through the heart of the city will not now be completed as originally planned in July 2011.

Slim hopes that it might just be completed within its original £512 million budget have also finally been scuppered.

In his first interview since taking over the job dubbed by tram line opponents as "mission impossible", the former Edinburgh Airport managing director insisted that despite a string of unexpected pitfalls, contractual disputes and fury from businesses and road users hindered by its doddering progress, the project will be a major success.

"The situation is absolutely recoverable and I do not believe it is as bad as it's made out to be," he stressed.

"It might be appropriate to conduct a post-mortem on this and it might well lead to some public hangings – then again, it might not, but at the moment it's not helpful or productive in terms of getting the trams built. We can't gauge what, if anything, has gone wrong until the trams are up and running."

He also called on politicians to stop bickering over the project and urged them to rally together instead.

"I'm not blind to the political complexities of the project but the more that is allowed to take centre stage, the more damage to the product, to Edinburgh and to Scotland," he warned.

He was speaking for the first time since taking over the chief role at tram firm TIE last month, replacing former chief executive Willie Gallagher, who left six months earlier for family reasons.

Mr Gallagher's resignation came just weeks after it emerged that Neil Renilson, the head of Lothian Buses and the official charged with integrating trams and buses, was to take early retirement in December – plunging the management of the project into disarray.

Mr Jeffrey had just started in his new role when Edinburgh's transport chief, Phil Wheeler, was forced out of his job by his own party amid concerns over his handling of the tram project. Mr Wheeler has been replaced by former finance leader Gordon Mackenzie.

It brings a new management team into position at a key time in the project's progress: as troublesome work to realign utilities in Princes Street begins to reach a conclusion, allowing the first tracks to be laid in the city's key thoroughfare in June and the street to reopen in November.

While Mr Jeffrey is confident that target will be met – thanks to the city council's decision to lift an embargo on tram works in the high summer season period – his first key announcement as chief executive has been to confirm that the overall project is now officially delayed and over budget.

"The project will not be delivered in July 2011," he confirmed. "We are working as hard as we can to make sure we are up and running as soon as we can – I have a pretty good idea when that will be – but it's not appropriate to announce that while we are still in talks with contractors."

It is also possible that the first tram ride will be a rather shorter journey than originally anticipated. He is not in favour of a "piecemeal" opening of the line, but it has not been ruled out either.

"At the moment the plan is to stick with the original plan and open the entire route – from Newhaven to the airport – fully working, fully functional.

"However six months of training and shadow running has been designated for the route from Gogar depot to Edinburgh Park – if that goes well there's a chance to reduce that six months and open other sections. But having put the city through this level of disruption, having spent this money, we have to make sure that when it opens, everything is fantastic from day one."

Not only is the project behind schedule, it's also going to be over its original £512m budget, he confirmed.

"We're in discussions with contractors at the moment to agree on a revised programme and costs – it wouldn't be sensible to discuss figures."

Instead he points to the "risk allowance" sum built into the final funding figure of £545m – a cash pot set aside to help cover potential problem areas – adding the final amount will rest somewhere between the two figures.

Nevertheless, Mr Jeffrey – who steered Edinburgh Airport to challenge Glasgow's crown as Scotland's key aviation gateway before quitting in April 2007 – is upbeat. With a background in civil engineering along with a key role as current president of Edinburgh's Chamber of Commerce, his appointment is being seen as a major step forward in bringing together opponents of the controversial project.

Already he is pledging to improve the tram company's communication on key traffic management issues to help businesses and the public through the pain of construction.

He has also ushered in a new era of openness by conceding that disputes with the likes of key contractor Bilfinger Berger, whose disagreement with TIE led to a month's delay on the Princes Street site earlier this year, will almost certainly occur in the future. The German-based company has indicated that there are at least 100 areas of possible dispute outstanding which could push up the cost of the project.

Mr Jeffrey added that unforeseen problems have hindered work in Leith, putting most of the area's construction work behind schedule. "We are replacing infrastructure that in some places is 150 years old. You can do so much in site studies and investigations but something will always crop up – that's written into the project."

While some issues are unavoidable, others could have been handled better, he added. "I think we could have treated the city with a bit more respect. That's about how we communicate with businesses and the public in the way we plan and develop works and even about good housekeeping – keeping areas where we are working tidy and professional.

"There is huge support around the city

People have said this is 'mission impossible', but since I have taken it on I've felt so enthused about everything. There's this great sense of being part of something that will be so good."


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 20 May 2009 10:44 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Edinburgh transport plans
 
1

RubberMaid,

Edinburgh 20/05/2009 10:07:34
The trams are coming! Oh wait, no they're not.
2

Skip McClendon,

20/05/2009 11:58:00
A promising start from the new Chief Exec, who seems like a decent, forthright chap.

Looks like he has the skills and experience that some of his predecessors lacked, notably a commitment to honesty and open-ness.

We have all known for a long-time that the project was running late and over-budget despite constant spurious claims to the contrary from TIE and their cheerleaders, so it is refreshing to hear the truth from them new man at the top.

Hopefully, the strain of picking up and delivering this poorly conceived and terribly run project does not send Mr Jeffrey doolally and send him running for the hills.
3

Hibernia,

20/05/2009 12:02:13
Tell us something we didnt know!!!

All we need is Gorgie Tony to claim that the top deck is best now!
4

alfonsa pedrosa,

embra 20/05/2009 12:02:43
So whats new,a large percentage of the good people in the city forecast that when the project was first mentioned.
5

Old Cartha Boy,

20/05/2009 12:05:12
Shame this guy wasn't in place from the outset! I already miss a quoute from Cllr Dawe that "we are on time and budget".

6

TankEngine,

Uphall 20/05/2009 12:09:04
So, will Cllr Dawe know fall on her sword? As the public know, MP's, MSP's and Cllr's just lie!!
7

Buttress,

20/05/2009 12:11:13
Huge support? Which hole has he his head stuck dowm?

Apart from the costs, the poles and wires will be an eyesore.
8

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 20/05/2009 12:12:02
"EDINBURGH'S beleaguered trams system is today officially confirmed as being behind schedule and over budget" - did anybody who'd progressed beyond the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny and Gordon Brown's competence ever think otherwise?
9

cammy burns,

20/05/2009 12:12:05
really !!!!! "well blow me over".....
10

Skip McClendon,

20/05/2009 12:20:10
#3

Now that he has debunked the myths about the tramline being on-time and in-budget, how long before Mr Jeffrey addresses that Double-Decker tram issue?!?
11

Brian Ferrari,

20/05/2009 12:20:30
A good day to bury bad news.

Except they were a day late. Oh well.
12

Daudi Baldrs,

Norway 20/05/2009 12:20:34
Trams Chief richard Jeffrey also went on to say:

"Rain is made of water"
13

Bigwull,

edinburgh 20/05/2009 12:25:28
Bonuses were on time though and its not a system its 1 line, that for most of its route runs alongside an existing railway.
14

I love to eat Sellotape,

20/05/2009 12:28:24
In other news today, a pigeon crept along Lothian Road and pecked at a small piece of stale bread.
15

Paula McGuire,

20/05/2009 12:29:17
"Trams not on budget and not on time"

REALLY?
16

tog,

Edinburgh 20/05/2009 12:30:32
Whatever else you can say about the trams at least the new bloke seems to understand the importance of communicating with the public something that was sorely lacking before. If they had taken this attitude earlier they may not have alienated so many people.
17

Daudi Baldrs,

Norway 20/05/2009 12:30:58
Further wisdom of Tram Chief (aka The Bleeding Obvious):

1. Nobody wants the trams (save for tony Topdeck, who is yammering nutcase)

2. The trams are a waste of money and will serve no beneficial purpose as a replacement for the 22 bus.

3. the cooncillors who fought for this project were more interested in free buffets and air miles than they were in trams.

4. The project has been a disaster from day one.

5. If the trams project was to be cancelled today, it would save a lot of money.

6. The trams will never make money.

7. The SNP were right to try and stop the trams.

8. Auld McKay's been very quiet. What does he do all day? Watch golf DVDs and drink lemonade?

9. Jenny Dawe. Arf.

10. Referendum!
18

Liz,

Edinburgh 20/05/2009 12:32:17
"But having put the city through this level of disruption, having spent this money, we have to make sure that when it opens, everything is fantastic from day one."

Something tells me that this statement will come back to haunt him...
19

Incandescent,

20/05/2009 12:34:23
Scotsol
Foo
Julian
Duncan

So, the new CEO's first significant public communication is to announce that, for the past couple of years, you lot have been blindly defending any old piece of...spin thrown at you by those formerly in charge.

Ah, the irony.
20

Leila,

Edinburgh 20/05/2009 12:34:48
Mr Jeffrey said, "I think we could have treated the city with a bit more respect ... keeping areas where we are working tidy and professional".

I was stopped yesterday in Hanover Street by a couple of tourists who asked me where the "shopping centre" was. So I indicated Princes Street, where all that could be seen was tramworks, and then George Street, which looked almost deserted. They didn't seem impressed.
21

Dragonlord,

20/05/2009 12:35:34
So at last, what we have all been saying is finaly official. How can he claim it will be a sucsess, when we all know the proposed passengers will no longer be there due to the waterfront crash. Scrap this stupid whire elephant now.
22

Dragonlord,

20/05/2009 12:36:17
Sorry that should read " white"
23

Incandescent,

20/05/2009 12:37:23
#10 Skip

Indeed. You'd think he'd want to take the edge of the bad news by simultaneously announcing the miracle that is trams with more than one deck. Which gets me to thinking: don't pensioners usually sit at the front of the bottom deck on buses? I don't see them electing to climb a set of stairs on Tony's advice.
24

Ecto,

20/05/2009 12:37:33
How come none of these halfwits knew about the air raid shelter does no one know how to look at plans of the city before this mess started. I don't believe for one minute that the shelter or the caves on Leith Walk are not detailed somewhere on some plans. Amateur hour the whole bloody thing.
25

James (1),

20/05/2009 12:38:03
Call for Mr Foo and his three stooges!

Defence of the indefensible please!
26

Foo,

20/05/2009 12:40:08
19

I never said they would be on time or budget. If fact I remember saying that we should have them whatever the cost, or timescale.

27

Flying Upsidedown,

edinburgh 20/05/2009 12:42:09
Quelle Shock!
28

Incandescent,

20/05/2009 12:42:23
"Not only is the project behind schedule, it's also going to be over its original £512m budget"

"The situation is absolutely recoverable..."

Woops! These two statements are a tad contradictory.
29

Daudi Baldrs,

Norway 20/05/2009 12:42:57
Jenny Hjul's article in The Sunday Times (May 3rd 2009) just in case any of you missed it:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6210924.ece

Pretty much sums up what everyone in Edinburgh thinks (save for Tony Topdeck, who wears a jester's hat and keeps a sixty foot chicken called Brian in his shed).
30

James (1),

20/05/2009 12:43:28
Duncan come out, come out where ever you are! Foo needs back up!

I would have said I told you so but my keyboard is not working.
Oh wait it is! I TOLD YOU SO!

This is a win win situation for us. You will get your tram line (eventually) and I am proved right when I said all along that it will come in way over budget and no where near the time they said it would.

Are we not good?
31

I love to eat Sellotape,

20/05/2009 12:44:48
If this Tony Topdeck "wears a jester's hat and keeps a sixty foot chicken called Brian in his shed", then I think I'd like to meet him.
32

Incandescent,

20/05/2009 12:46:14
#26 Foo

"you lot have been blindly defending any old piece of...spin thrown at you by those formerly in charge"

...within which is included the business case and environmental impact assessment. Compared to these whoppers the schedule and budget are a fairly small issue.
33

James (1),

20/05/2009 12:46:21
Mind you Curly, Mo, Larry & Foo all you needed for your prediction to come true was to keep throwing other peoples money at it no matter the cost.
34

Foo,

20/05/2009 12:46:21
James, I'm happy for you mate. It's like Christmas has come early isn't it. Well done.

As it is, it's nice to see so many people that care about Edinburgh so much, pro or anti tram. Honestly, it is.

I'm not going to be living in Edinburgh for many more years. Too wet, too small and too cold for me, but that's just me.

So, you know, like, whatever.
35

Leila,

Edinburgh 20/05/2009 12:46:41
"I do not believe it is as bad as it's made out to be."

"We can't gauge what, if anything, has gone wrong until the trams are up and running."

This sounds worryingly vague. Does Mr Jeffrey know what he's talking about?
36

Bob 2,

20/05/2009 12:49:59
So the Truth is Out

at least Richard Jeffrey has been honest and not fudged the issue.

Not only is the project behind schedule, it's also going to be over its original £512m budget, he confirmed.
37

Bob 2,

20/05/2009 12:50:57
only question is , Is the £546m enough?
38

Daudi Baldrs,

Norway 20/05/2009 12:52:06
#31

Easily done. Just stand outside the Westfield chip shop (opposite Aldi site) on Gorgie Road.

After about a half hour a Steptoe lookalike in a jester's hat will walk past, followed by a hail of french fries and a gang of feral schoolkids.

Tony Topdeck will not let anyone into the shed to see Brian The Sixty Foot Chicken though, because he is afraid the authorities will take Brian away. Brian the Sixty Foot Chicken is believed to have once been an ordinary chicken. He was hatched at Gorgie Farm but escaped and grew to sixty foot after a recalcitrant schoolkid experimented on him with a can of Strontium 90 and some kolanji seeds.
39

Incandescent,

20/05/2009 12:52:44
#29 Daudi - Excellent article! Thanks for posting the link.
40

Edinburgh 100,

Musselburgh 20/05/2009 12:54:46
Its funny how it has taken TIE (and the cooncilors) a couple of years and a few hundred million quid to tell the people of edinburgh something they already new.

Is this progress when the new head of TIE says the tram will be late and over budget.

He really is justs setting his resignation up getting the blatently obvious two big issues out. So when he announces that he is leaving for family reasons he can then quote what he has said in this article and walk away with a nice big chque. I dont blame him I blame the Cooncil, politicians and other numopties at TIE who promised the world in relation to how great the tram would be but in actual fact sold us a turkey.
41

Incandescent,

20/05/2009 12:58:41
#37 Bob 2 - "only question is , Is the £546m enough?"

That question's moot considering they don't even *have* £546m! Now that the economic situation has given developers the power to blackmail CEC into letting them off with tram contributions, it seems even less likely they will be able to raise it anytime soon, without MASSIVE service cuts across the board and/or CT increases.
42

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 20/05/2009 13:02:39
Incandescent (41) - The Council has so far paid £20.8m towards its £45m contribution made up as follows:

£ 4.3m - Council land gifted to the project
£ 2.5m - Council's capital investment programme
£14.0m - prudential borrowing

As the developer contributions have failed to materialise and we seem to have a new City Development Director who is happy to let developers off their contributions altogether, it seem clear that the Council will require to borrow significantly more to meet its contribution.
43

,

20/05/2009 13:07:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
44

I love to eat Sellotape,

20/05/2009 13:09:43
I can't believe you people! A bloke on this forum has a sixty-foot chicken and you want to talk about trams?
45

Incandescent,

20/05/2009 13:11:45
#42 Sarah B

Thanks for the data. I await a response from Duncan who tirelessly argued very recently that the project was "not over budget", "how can it possibly be over budget?"

Mind you, he also suggested it would be possible for Whitehall to bypass Scottish Block funding to Local Authorities by means of a Central Government Grant to Cyclebag, er, I mean Sustrans, who would then pass additional funding to TIE. Hmm.
46

Daudi Baldrs,

Norway 20/05/2009 13:14:27

Tony - come join the thread and tell about the chicken and the shandy and the jangle of the jester hat.

Jenny MaCarthur has a lifesize cardboard cut-out of Michael Jackson in her shed.

Sometimes it escapes and moonwalks over neigbour's gardens in the moonlit drizzle, a lonely talent ostracized by his peers for being three millimetres thick.
47

Bring Back Poll Tax,

20/05/2009 13:14:39
Right so it's going to be late (but nobody knows how late) and over budget(but nobody knows how hideously over budget) but at least when (and if) it's delivered, it'll be "fantastic from day one".

Does this muppet own or use a dictionary - "Fantastic" - e.g. something that is based on or existing only in fantasy - well at least that's true.

48

Bob 2,

20/05/2009 13:15:13
Air raid shelter may stall work on tram project

Published Date: 20 May 2009

AN underground air raid shelter from the Second World War has been unearthed at a key section of the city's tram project sparking fears it may hold the project up further.

Transport officials, however, have insisted it is too early to determine whether the surprise discovery at Haymarket will delay the multi-million-pound scheme.

Pity the Transport Officials hadn't waited until tonights EN.
49

Cod,

20/05/2009 13:16:35
A sixty foot cawk on Princes Street?
What was it doing in an air raid shelter?
Has it mutated since WW2?
50

Foo,

20/05/2009 13:16:46
Perhaps the 60ft chicken could do a service from Ocean Terminal to the airport?
51

I love to eat Sellotape,

20/05/2009 13:18:27
I'm curious as to how the sixty-foot chicken came to be called "Brian".

Anyone?
52

Buttress,

20/05/2009 13:19:02
Oh, it all started out sounding so fine:-
http://heritage.edinburgh.gov.uk/internet/Attachments/Internet/Environment/Planning_and_buildings/Planning_hidden/Planning_policies/TDM_Section_3.pdf
53

Foo,

20/05/2009 13:20:23
In Papua New Guinea all chickens over 10 ft in height are called Massa-Brian, perhaps it came from that?
54

Daudi Baldrs,

20/05/2009 13:20:56
#51

Don't be stupid Foo. Only The Snowman could replace the 22 bus.

We're walking in the air
From Gyle To Ocean Termi- nal

By early April though
This transport solution will have melted
55

Bob 2,

20/05/2009 13:21:51
More worrying is the damage that the DELAYS, will now cause to Edinburgh economy and City Centre Shops.

As people will be even more likley to visit the City Centre.

Never mind the damage that is being caused to Lothian Buses.

Maybe the £3 fare isn't that far off, given the further delays announced by TIEs chief exec.
56

The Judge,

20/05/2009 13:22:36
Oh dear dear dear dear dearie me.

There is huge support around the city

No there's not. Yet still The SNP & Lib Dems will force the tramLINE to no-where upon us, they won't even be in office when it's finished(if it's ever finished)so why should they care.

Cardownies had his moment in the sun. Did you enjoy your few years of power Stevie? Was the executive bathroom all it's crack up to be? Was it worth ruining The SNP just so you could be deputy leader?

The Queen Mother & The Cheerleader have made their respective parties unelectable for decades to come & we'll be stuck with New Labour for another generation.

Well done Stevie boy.
57

Foo,

20/05/2009 13:23:42
Couldn't one of our local Mp's smuggle the extra costs of the tram line through in their next expenses claim?
58

Daudi Baldrs,

20/05/2009 13:25:44
#51

It was going to be called "I love to eat cookies wrapped in Scotch tape" or "Colonel Sanders" but it was called Brian instead, which was number 4 on the list of Domestic Fowl Names (male)1955, after Cornelius, darren, and Chris.
59

I love to eat Sellotape,

20/05/2009 13:26:37
No. They couldn't.
60

Daudi Baldrs,

20/05/2009 13:29:23
There is a local pet beagle called The Genuine Mario Antionette, it done a jobey on Decent's doorstep.
61

KTCB41,

20/05/2009 13:30:19
I heard recently that;
1) They may have to cut the number of Lothain Buses going on the North/South routes up North Bridge and Lothian Road or in from Mid/East Lothian if they don't get lot's of folk who want to go on the Occean Terminal/Aiport Tram line. That can't be correct?

2) Someone esle also suggested that, because the Government have capped their contribution their may have to be cuts to the education and social work budget to pay for any Tram overspend?

Again tell me that's wrong.
62

Daudi Baldrs,

20/05/2009 13:38:17
The trams r gony be brllyint use diny lyk it coz uze r all old n boring use dinny read the metros lttrs page n huv beebo n cule stuff nywyz y not huv trms gie uze ol bamz sum trnsprt tae the day centr LOL ill bttr any cent that toks the trms doon yz prolly all dryv a cinquecento n lisn tae suzn boil CDs LOL cri a rivr 4 the trams NAW argu aboot it on een threds NAW ma soshle worker jenny she likes the trams n aw so theres mare thn jus topdeck tony n his masseev strontium rooster LOL crakpots dinny want a trnsprt solushn fare ubuff i say what use gonny like fly tae work NAW use proly dinny even huv jobes use prolly pik stuff ooty binz n slepe oan a bench n beg fur 2.40 fur a starbux haw haw n yes prolly watch emmerdale n aw ya rajs ya totil RAJS eniwiaze they use tay huv trms bak in ole days ma granda minds them n he sez the wir barry n he's got chikkns tae mind only nomle size wans he's no a dafty so sSTICK yr antytram rantin cos yes are aw borin naebdi reeds these sept fox in mentle warrdz haw haw USE can SHut the geggie an get in the trams for the trrmz is a on its way LOL
63

Brian Ferrari,

20/05/2009 13:42:38
#60

you said...jobey.
64

scotsol,

Edinburgh 20/05/2009 13:43:27
Who cares? Not me, Foo, or Duncan, our support was never conditional on the project being on time or on budget. And not the anti-trammers either, since they'd be opposed to the scheme whatever the budget and timescale were. Trams are the future, everybody, whether you like it or not. Anybody who thinks they will still be riding around in the same old buses and cars after fossil fuel runs out is crazy. And those who think we can meet carbon emissions targets without trams are deluding themselves.
65

Duncan in Edinburgh,

20/05/2009 13:48:16
#64 Indeed, very well said Scotsol.
66

Foo,

20/05/2009 13:48:52
62

Barry post.
67

Foo,

20/05/2009 13:51:08
Does anyone else have a strange file download request when visiting the main EEN front page?
68

Daudi Baldrs,

Norway 20/05/2009 13:51:43
"MY DRUG HELL" BY SIXTY FOOT CHICKEN.

It all started with Strontium 90 and barrs Strike Cola, but then one of my mates (a mummified Elvis impersonator by the name of Elvis) said, why don't you try these, they're called Tic-Tacs, so I tried 'em and only they weren't minty pellets what he gave us but opium suppositories then I stole a Lionel Richie CD and ran along Princes Street to the sound of Iggy Pop.

Then I ran into a shed in Gorgie and did a lot of sleeping and Tony Topdeck makes me a cup of Horlicks at 11pm each day.
69

I love to eat Sellotape,

20/05/2009 13:55:18
Well, I've nothing to say after that except "pass the salt, Ethel".
70

Brian Ferrari,

20/05/2009 13:55:32
"MY NEW BURD" by Gorgie_Tony
71

I love to eat Sellotape,

20/05/2009 14:08:15
Any truth to the rumour that Sixty Foot Chicken is being hounded by a 643-foot Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall?
72

Foo,

20/05/2009 14:09:48
Instead of trams, why not install a 270mph Maglev like they have in Shanghai along the proposed route?

People from Monaco could then fly straight in to Edinburgh and be at Ocean Terminal within 3 minutes.
73

I love to eat Sellotape,

20/05/2009 14:15:45
We should have a maglev just because it's a fun word to say.

Maglev.
74

Daudi Baldrs,

Norway 20/05/2009 14:15:51
The trams will be used by prostitutes and drug addicts, pigeon-scarers, pukers, goons, thugs, mentals, randoms, chicken keepers, chicken fryers, spooks, elves, screwheads, pill poppers, moonwalkers, scum, filth, deadbeats.
75

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 20/05/2009 14:16:40
Now what did I tell you all when this project was confirmed as going ahead? I said it would come in over budget and late. All the tram supporters said I was talking rubbish.

Well eat your words now people! This is the second time today that my prophecies have been proven true!
76

Incandescent,

20/05/2009 14:18:38
#65 scotsol - "Who cares? Not me, Foo, or Duncan, our support was never conditional on the project being on time or on budget."

We know what your support is based on scotsol: green fundamentalism. I'm sure it's been pointed out to you numerous times that the environmental impact of the project, accroding to TIE's own business case, will be negative for some years to come. Hardly "the future", now is it?
77

Foo,

20/05/2009 14:19:13
Haha, that's great "my prophecies"

Maglev
78

scotsol,

Edinburgh 20/05/2009 14:29:57
#76 - Even if there will be a negative impact "for some years to come" (which I don't concede), that is better than a negative and increasingly disastrous impact for many years to come, which is all you and your petrol fundamentalist friends have to offer.
79

defendthefaith,

Edinburgh 20/05/2009 14:30:05
Surely the air raid shelter should have been picked up by the Company who did the Land referencing, if not then i would imagine that tie should be claiming against their indemnity insurance, thereby excluding the tax payer from paying for the delays associated with this particular blunder. i believe that the company was english although their name escapes me.
80

I love to eat Sellotape,

20/05/2009 14:34:48
74. What is a "screwhead"?
81

Incandescent,

20/05/2009 14:43:01
#78 scotsol - "...which you "don't concede"? That was the finding of consultants and the opinion of an expert professor. What are your relevant qualifications?

You think I'm a "petrol fundamentalist"? Oh dear. You predictably jump to a kneejerk (or simply, jerk) conclusion. In fact, I agree something has to be done. I just don't agree that a 19th century mode that is inflexible, impractical, and incurs huge transmission losses is the solution.
82

Incandescent,

20/05/2009 14:45:23
#78 scotsol

The almost laughably simple fact is that electric busses are not "world class" and "iconic" and would therefore not fulfil CEC's vanity. If you're looking for justification beyond that you're on a hiding to nowhere. Read the article linked above.
83

Daudi Baldrs,

Norway 20/05/2009 14:53:23
*LULZ* the airrade sheltr was 8 by the chikkn ha ha u noes it u fule.datsun hut 8 bya chikkn squock squoxk ha ahha LULZ seltape ha ha foo use R ALL rajs ha ha It will yes be ovr by xmas ha ha order order u sadoez coulny pull it for a pension the honrable gentelman is a cruke pur n simple sout trough like the chikkn sept wi pigfeed likes awrite am gordon brown have got sixty donkys n some bucksts n spades alter8ive profesy fur ys - NAE TRAMS ha ha lol u wish
84

I love to eat Sellotape,

20/05/2009 14:56:35
I have seen the future. And it is World Class Electric Buses.
85

Buttress,

20/05/2009 15:03:33
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6210924.ece

From The Sunday Times

May 3, 2009

Edinburgh tram sham is a warning to other cities

The much vaunted integrated transport system has never had mass approval, so maybe it’s time to put it to the popular vote

Jenny Hjul

Outside Edinburgh, town planners and transport convenors are probably enjoying the escalating chaos in the capital. Hardly a week goes by without some new disaster threatening to scupper the once-grand tram scheme, heaping embarrassment on the city fathers whose dream it was. It would take a heart of stone not to laugh.

86

Daudi Baldrs,

Norway 20/05/2009 15:16:58

Dear Jenny Hjul,

I love you.

Love

D Baldrs (32, edinburgh)
87

Daudi Baldrs,

Norway 20/05/2009 15:18:37

Dear 60FT Chicken,

I hear you're recording an ambient black metal album. Sounds class m8 but don't play it 2 Topdeck T or he might accuse it of throwing french fries at his sorry ass.

Cheers

DB
88

scotsol,

Edinburgh 20/05/2009 15:19:30
#81 - use your loaf, Incandescent. The potty little report printed in the EEN a few days ago was roundly condemned by the Green party and anybody else with a bit of common sense. It factored into the calculation the entire carbon cost of the building of the tram line, and the cost of the whole development at the Waterfront. By this method they were able to say that building a second Forth Road Bridge, a huge urban motorway which will quickly fill up with cars and lorries thundering across it 24/7, was less costly!

If this report were accurate, it would blow apart the transport plans not only of Edinburgh, but also Manchester, Sheffield, Dublin, Marseilles, Strasbourg, Amsterdam, Munich, Lisbon, Geneva, Prague etc etc, in which case I'd have expected to see it widely reported. Instead, it didn't even make the Scotsman the next day, let alone any other paper I'm aware of.

Your trust in "professors" (as long as they are anti-tram, natch) is touching. However, I think it was a similar team who not so long ago stated that there was no link between smoking and cancer.
89

Daudi Baldrs,

In A Taxi 20/05/2009 15:21:38
Need 100 comments before 4pm. Go for it EEN commenters. Julian will be on at 10pm with some earnest handwringing pro-tram concern. But for now, let's have some robust anti-tram comments.
90

Daudi Baldrs,

20/05/2009 15:22:50
#88

"Natch"...? This isn't the 60s.
91

Spanish jambo,

20/05/2009 15:26:14
Trams, SNP, trams, SNP, trams, SNP......Anti trams, anti SNP, anti trams, anti SNP.......YAWN YAWN YAWN!!
Change the record EEN!
92

Daudi Baldrs,

20/05/2009 15:34:53
The trams will be a lot less bovver than a hovercraft. That's their entire list of plus points.

Linux lentil eaters - go home. In your 2CV. And forget the trams, cos the people have spoken, overwhelmingly, against trams.
93

Daudi Baldrs,

20/05/2009 15:37:28
#90

Alright Topdeck. Is that dandruff or a bag of chips on your shoulder.

By the way your 60ft Chicken is making an ambient metal album in the shed.
94

Daudi Baldrs,

20/05/2009 15:38:46
chickchickachickchickachicken lay a little ambient black metal record for mee
95

Daudi Baldrs,

20/05/2009 15:39:07
Every time I see you, you're buying chickens.
96

Daudi Baldrs,

20/05/2009 15:40:00
Spent last night in the cells - polis arrested me when I showed my cawk to a hen night.
97

Daudi Baldrs,

20/05/2009 15:40:10
99
98

Buttress,

20/05/2009 15:40:17
Times:

Since the tram works began, the number of people in Princes Street has dropped by a quarter. A survey by the Federation of Small Businesses showed the average business affected by the tram works had lost almost £24,500 between January 27 and February 14 last year. In Edinburgh, everything that could go wrong has gone wrong.

But while the city grinds to a halt, the mood in the town hall remains resolute. Jenny Dawe, the council leader, said recently: “The tram project is the right thing for Edinburgh and in that we have backing from the Chamber of Commerce, from businesses, retailers and I think a majority of people in Edinburgh.”

If she and her colleagues thought about the city at all, rather than their own reputations, they would let the people who live there — and, in fact, the rest of Scotland since it is also footing the bill — make up their own minds about the future of the trams. Let’s have that referendum now.

99

Buttress,

20/05/2009 15:40:35
Yay!
100

Daudi Baldrs,

20/05/2009 15:48:29
Dear Buttress,

well done. And well done for quoting The Hjul.

DB
101

Incandescent,

20/05/2009 15:48:51
#88 scotsol " the Green party and anybody else with a bit of common sense..."

Oh dear, your contribution to the debate is about as valuable as Gorgie_Tony's.

Correction, at least G-Tone has a pet printer technician in the halls of power. So your contribution, such as it is, is little more than lunacy.
102

Incandescent,

20/05/2009 15:51:03
#88 scotsol

Have you considered getting yourself a war pistol? Then you just might have the gravitas to be taken seriously.
103

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 20/05/2009 15:51:26
scotsol (88) - We were told the argument that the trams and the Waterfront were inter-dependent and that one could not happen without the other. The Greens certainly seemed to accept this argument and put it forward on various occasions. In that case, the Greens should accept that it would be perfectly reasonable to combine carbon emissions from both sources.

The Environmental Statement prepared for the tram project was critical in many respects - not least for the "major adverse effect" the trams were predicted to have on every section of the line, except the Waterfront but the Green Party said nothing about that.

I used to be a supporter of the Green Party but not any more. In the case of the tram scheme, they jumped to support it without checking that it stacked up and was the best option and they have been unable to grasp the necessity of ensuring maximum benefit from limited finance. Their response to the problems facing Lothian Buses and their proposals, if any, to address these will be interesting.

104

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 20/05/2009 15:52:21
Great news, maybe this whole stupid 'project' will be dumped at last.
105

Daudi Baldrs,

20/05/2009 16:01:43
Roll on the white elephant!
106

Spanish jambo,

20/05/2009 16:15:55
#100 The FSB claim "Small businesses" are losing out on 25 grand but they're still making their profits, right? And will any of them be complaining when the trams are up and running and these same small businesses are making wads? Sure they will :o(
107

calum,

20/05/2009 16:18:21
So what all this means is that politicians have lied to us...... the citizens of Edinburgh and the rest of Scotland, around 5 million people. Not just been "mistaken", "not in possession of all the facts", but LIED! Remember that.
108

Incandescent,

20/05/2009 16:21:55
#108 G-Tone

"Extra"? Unless they've resorted to the Indian technique of vendors running alongside the buses and selling things to the passengers through the open windows, I don't see how rerouting buses will benefit trade.

Explain yourself.
109

Daudi Baldrs,

20/05/2009 16:27:00

Would you like to buy some plastic gew-gaws memsahib?

Please slow the tram, I am spilling my chai all over the pavement memsahib. It is 1885 and everybody is smelling like poo poo.
110

Daudi Baldrs,

20/05/2009 16:31:00
"But they've got trams in Dublin"

And leprechauns. All we've got is Topdeck G-Tone and a masseev hole in the ground.
111

calum,

20/05/2009 16:42:13
113 - GT is a late shift junior hack at the EN and Duncan will be visiting friends at EH11 3LN, but no doubt they'll be back later.
112

Euan,

Edinburgh 20/05/2009 16:55:10
I'm really not sure what Richard Jeffrey is on about in the article when he says 'We can't gauge what, if anything, has gone wrong until the trams are up and running'.

EH? 'If anything has gone wrong'?!

Good lord Mr Jeffrey, given that the project is now 'officially' at least a year behind schedule and millions and millions of pounds over budget, I would have said that the list of things gone wrong must be absolutely enormous.

Also, to say that 'There is huge support around the city' is nothing but plain and simple propaganda. I know of not one soul who is in favour of this disgraceful project, not one.

Common sense has to prevail, it really isn't too late to call a halt to this tram farce and get Edinburgh put back to normal.



113

calum,

20/05/2009 17:28:42
#117 - Oh yes you are. I got it straight from the horse's mouth.
114

Lang Spoon,

The Trenches in Leith 20/05/2009 17:34:00
Another open letter to our super council:

Dear Council;

Just remember one thing, which might make you see sense if nothing else- elections for your seats will happen in due course, and the citizens will have their revenge for the colossal damage you are inflicting on their lovely but fragile old city!

Just a reminder on which way to vote when the day comes:
For the Trams: Labour, Cons, LibDems
Against: SNP
115

calum,

20/05/2009 17:34:13
#121 - I told you, straight from the horse's mouth. 100% reliable information, oh yes.
116

Euan,

Edinburgh 20/05/2009 17:36:12
#118

How exactly is it 'scaremongering' Tony? I just don't think you can wrap your tiny mind around the HUGE sums of money that this tram project is devouring on a daily basis and the astronomical running costs it will incur should it ever be completed.

As a result, should the project ever be completed (which I think is very unlikely), it will be virtually impossible to expect minimum fares to be anything less than £3-£4 for a single journey. They will have to be at this level just to try and cover the drivers' wages, let alone pay for anything else.

As for 'making it up' Tony, thats rich coming from you. The bile you spout every day comes straight from cloud cookoo land.



117

Incandescent,

20/05/2009 17:36:27
Tony - I haven't been able to find the post where you revealed the calibre of your war pistol. Would you please be kind enough to repeat it?
118

calum,

20/05/2009 17:45:08
#125 - War pistol? That was his words, no such thing, which confirms his status as a fraudster. No genuine serviceman would ever have referred to it as that.
119

Euan,

Edinburgh 20/05/2009 17:51:03
#127

They are not made up Tony, they are a very realistic and very probable prediction of what the fares will actually be.

As for lost credibility Tony?

Well if you look at yourself, at least you can't lose something you never had..





120

calum,

20/05/2009 18:00:47
#129 - Little boy? Wouldn't you wish! No, just able to spot a fraudster. You're a hack, straight from the horse's mouth.
121

calum,

20/05/2009 18:18:54
#133 - Straight from the horse's mouth, reliable information.
122

Euan,

Edinburgh 20/05/2009 18:22:39
#131

It's you who speaks the baloney, you silly old fool.

Oh, and that's straight from the horses mouth..
123

Euan,

Edinburgh 20/05/2009 18:53:24
#145

What exactly have I said that makes you think I'm a liar?

Tony, you really are losing your marbles.
124

The Judge,

20/05/2009 18:55:53
Euan the project cannot be stopped now, the main players, The Cheerleader & The Queen Mother have decided we're getting a tramLINE and to hell with the costs. The only way it can be stopped is political will, and that's not going to happen any time soon.

I have more time for Dawes because at least she has been in favour of a tramLINE since day one, it was in The Lib Dem manifesto. Cardownine on the other hand is happy to play politics, "we're the only party against the trams". When in reality he's only interested in is being Deputy Leader of the council. Either he walks away as SNP group leader or The SNP group kick him out, if none of those things happen The SNP will spend another generation in the political wilderness. I can't for the life of me understand why The SNP at a national level allowed him to join a coalition that's building the tramLINE.
125

Daudi Baldrs,

20/05/2009 19:04:55


SIXTY FOOT CHICKEN GOES BERSERK IN SHED

126

Euan,

Edinburgh 20/05/2009 19:08:29
#150

Good points, but I not so sure about the way it can be halted. I really do think that this project is going to run into very serious financial problems in the not too distant future, no matter what the upper management are trying to make us believe.

There are so many things that appear to be getting conveniently forgotten about, like the 'almost 100' issues that Bilfinger Berger still have with TIE and the fact that, by running over 12 months behind schedule, Mr Jeffrey thinks it can still all come in within the £545 million budget.

Even if it is completed in 2012 or 2013, I would be very interested to see just how many aggrieved locals will ever set foot on one of the trams - and I will forever be one of those locals.

Edinburgh citizens will vote with their feet and force the tram LINE to shut down for good.





127

calum,

20/05/2009 19:09:21
GT- No, not a liar, just away walking the dog, who is infinitely more important and has greater needs than you. Anyway, my information is absolutely genuine, straight from the horse's mouth...... no rats, gristle-free, no cats, no nothing. Just genuine info.
128

Daudi Baldrs,

20/05/2009 19:09:46

If you write "trams £1.30 a fare" on a dead fish and throw it to a dolphin, what happens?
129

Daudi Baldrs,

20/05/2009 19:10:42
REFERENDUM
130

Euan,

Edinburgh 20/05/2009 19:14:21
#152 rs

'maybe Euans £3-£4 fare is OTT'

I just cannot see how that is OTT.

We're talking about a tram LINE which will be hugely over-budget by the time it may be completed, and time that may be 2012 or 2013.

I'm sorry, but I stick by my £3-£4 single fare prediction and really do think it will be a reality - IF (and it's a big IF by the way) the project is ever completed.



131

calum,

20/05/2009 19:25:57
#159 - No, not a liar, just have info straight from the horse's mouth ....... in fact a very similar horse's mouth to your top deck horse.
132

DRZ400,

20/05/2009 19:38:31
Over budget, behind time. Sounds exactly like that other waste of money known as the Parliament!!!
133

Jonfish,

Edinburgh 20/05/2009 19:55:57
Trams belong to the 19th century, and so do Edinburgh councillors. Most world cities plan to ditch them. They are fixed, smelly, noisy, crates on rails. Princes Street should have been pedestrianised but is now ruined ! Wake up everyone -- politicians have little commonsense.
134

Daudi Baldrs,

Norway 20/05/2009 20:03:15

Why do people always say Edinburgh - fur coat and no pants.


It should be: Edinburgh, Tramline and no pants.
135

Daudi Baldrs,

20/05/2009 20:06:35
#165

Some very perceptive points there, Jonfish.
136

Jonfish,

Edinburgh 20/05/2009 20:20:29
Thanks Daudi #167. Shame that the 'Homecoming' year should have been blighted by this unrealistic tram plan. Tourists I've spoken to, just shake their heads when viewing Princes Street. I still love this city though!
137

bill inch,

EDINBURGH 20/05/2009 20:20:59
Grubby toni chickenshit from the horses mouth
138

Daudi Baldrs,

20/05/2009 20:27:38
#168

Princes Street looks not unlike Manchester after it got bombed by the 'RA. except worse.

"Edinburgh, let me tell you that I love you, that I think about miles of roadworks all the time"

#169

I think G-Tone is getting the horses mouth mixed up with the donkey's dungpile.
139

Daudi Baldrs,

20/05/2009 20:45:47
Les Trams sont pour les spasmo
140

Daudi Baldrs,

20/05/2009 20:47:16
Haben sie Gute Fahrte im TopDeck.
141

Ian down under,

Musselburgh 20/05/2009 21:43:44
#165
Which world are you talking about. Been round a fair bit of it myself and I sem to see cities with no tram/light rail building new systems and ones that have them expanding it.
Perhaps you are thinking of a parallel universe where oil is plentiful and people breath CO2 and No2 in preference to oxygen.
142

trams for the tourist 2025,

edinburgh 20/05/2009 22:42:53
over budget is that a suprise!!
edinburgh is being destroyed by the council
how many buses will be left when the trams are finished
-it emerged that Neil Renilson, the head of Lothian Buses retired early- why ? the council will have ruined all edinburghs bus network and shops
bring it on
143

Peter Wyngarde,

20/05/2009 23:40:07
Ladies and Gentlemen, undercover hacks, greenies and TIE employees, to see how this story all ends, please tune into Marge vs the Monorail, a rather fitting episode of the amercian comedy series the Simpsons, and everytime you hear the word Monorail, just think Tramline...
144

taxiedin,

edinburgh 21/05/2009 07:49:14
when the festival stars the city will be grid locked
145

Big bob 79,

21/05/2009 08:29:40
No surprise its over budget, we have been shouting it for months, must be a hugh slap in the face for council to finally have to admit it.
This admission combined with Lothian Buses soon to come U -turn on silly high single flat fare in Edinburgh highlights how close to crisis the council feels transport in Edinburgh actually is.

146

New Town Resident,

21/05/2009 12:07:33
Don't forget this dreadful project was first justified on an EU air quality directive related to traffic fumes. This came from the last greenie agenda of the 1990s and predates the latest CO2 agenda.

Result; George Street, Edinburgh's finest stret is now stuffed with buses and choked with diesel fumes and you can hardly cross the road. The shopping quality is going, just like what happened to Princess Street when the council wrecked it in the 60s and 70s. But thats OK then, lets just have more bars for the stags and hens?

And it seems the Council are now "studying" keeping George Street permanently trashed because their favorite lobby group "Spokes" want to be able to pedal down Princess Street without buses!

What happened to the air quality justification - I bet you the air quality is a lot worse in George Street now than it ever was in Princess Street before this mess started - stands to reason because George St is narrower and enclosed.

We have been hijacked by a tiny unrepresentative minority and it's ruining the City.
147

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 21/05/2009 14:00:36
"There is huge support around the city"???

Ask the next taxi driver you talk to about how much support his fares have shown for the trams, bearing in mind these are public transport users.

All will tell you less than 5%, last one on Friday said he had had 1 positive comment and even that was a lukewarm, theyv'e started so probably better to finish.

Everyone reading this knew it would be late and miles over budget, how come the experts that we employ and the council didn't. Does anyone suspect that maybe they did realise it?? Wouldn't be like MPs and some element of self interest from the public sector would it?
148

Euan,

Edinburgh 21/05/2009 16:24:05
#179

Very well said and totally correct.

The fools who are in charge of this once fine city are doing their very best to drag it down to the depths of despair every single day - and they're succeeding.

I say shame on them all.


149

CAR ONLY EDINBURGH,

28/05/2009 17:25:52
Simple solution to simple problems:

BAN ALL PUBLIC TRANSPORT IN EDINBURGH! MAKE EDINBURGH A CAR ONLY CITY!

 

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