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Fresh blow for city as St James Centre tram tax falls by £6.5m

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Published Date: 10 June 2009
THE city's tram scheme has been dealt a new blow after council chiefs only managed to secure a £1.4 million "tram tax" from the planned £850m redevelopment of the St James Centre – around £6.5m less than expected.
The deal leaves the council still needing to bank another £40m towards its £45m share of the tramline's costs.

The Evening News understands council officials were originally expecting an amount closer to £8m for the massive St James revamp when t
he tram project was first approved in 2006 but negotiations with developer Henderson Global Investors (HGI) and the onset of recession have seen that figure dwindle.

The news comes just weeks after it was revealed the council has settled for a £2.5m tram contribution from the firm behind the planned Morrison Street goods yards development, instead of the £4m it had originally demanded.

A developer also recently dodged paying a £500,000 contribution for a 103-bedroom hotel on Princes Street after threatening to pull the plug on its plans if forced to pay the tram tax.

City leaders – who are now turning to borrowing the money they need for their share of the tram scheme against the developer contributions they expect to net over the next ten years – today insisted there are no concerns over raising the money for the council's part of the deal. However, opposition politicians today raised fears over city taxpayers being saddled with more debt.

The city's Tory transport spokesman, Mark McInnes, said: "I am very concerned about these very low levels of contribution at this stage of the project.

"I am most concerned that council tax payers will be saddled with the extra costs. The council has failed to properly calculate what it will get from the contributions and it will be ordinary residents who will suffer."

The developer contribution – or "Section 75" – deal struck with HGI also includes building affordable housing away from the St James site, though the location and number of new homes will be dependent on how many homes within the St James development are granted planning permission

HGI has also agreed to buy three cars for the City Car Club and contribute £25,000 towards air quality monitoring initiatives in the city centre over the next ten years. St Thomas of Aquins High School will also get £8,480 towards improvements.

Myles White, a fund manager for Henderson Global Investors, said: "We are pleased that the Section 75 measures have been approved so quickly by the city council, allowing us to progress swiftly to the next stage of our ambitious plans.

"It once again shows the benefits of taking a partnership approach with the council from the start."

Transport leader Councillor Gordon Mackenzie today insisted the St James contribution was "appropriate". "I am confident that overall sufficient funds will come from other developments as the tram route is clearly a significant factor in attracting investment to Edinburgh," he said.

The new St James Quarter development will create up to 90 shops, a new 150-bed, five-star hotel and 250 homes.


Workers find themselves in deep water

THEY are perhaps more used to battling against the tide of public opinion, but tram workers on Princes Street faced an altogether more pressing problem yesterday after bursting a water main.

Just 24 hours after celebrating the long-awaited arrival of the project's first set of tracks, contractors were seen frantically pumping out the water after damaging a pipe near the Scott Monument.

Passer-by Stefan Karpa, 39, said: "It was just outside Marks & Spencer and looked fairly major. It looked like it was a canal they were constructing, rather than a tram line."

Mike Connelly, a spokesman for tram firm TIE said: "I can confirm that a water pipe was damaged. However, it was reported to Scottish Water by us immediately on two occasions before 9am in order for them to make the repair. We are working closely on site with traders as well as with Scottish Water to resolve the situation."

Scottish Water said engineers were on site to make repairs. Only one property – Clinton Cards – lost supply. All other properties were unaffected.


Your Say: Are you happy with the council borrowing money to pay for the trams?

Christopher Day, 54, choreographer, Dundas Street: "It would depend on the terms of the loan. I think it's reasonable to take out a loan for a piece of capital investment.I'm not generally in favour of loans to meet running costs."

Charles McAllistair, 22, IT consultant, West End: "I don't mind them taking out a loan – I think they will get the money back at some point."

Anna Richardson, 29, project manager, Bruntsfield: "Not really, but I'm not sure what the alternative is. I suppose it is better than cutting other services to find the money."



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1

Dragonlord,

10/06/2009 11:51:38
So along with the big black hole that's already there, we have another big black hole that is the trams. The council will bankrupt Edinburgh, just to see a wee train set run to no-where. Come on there must be someone with the balls to say it. Scrap the trams now before the town is ruined beyond redemption.
2

simonp,

10/06/2009 11:57:49
excellent well done Jenny and Co I knew you would(n't) let us down
3

LUVMACITY,

IN THE LOBBY 10/06/2009 12:00:24
Whilst I am in favour of the Trams I find it wrong that firms are being asked to donate before planning consent is given. Surely that is a form of blackmail.
4

Padraig,

10/06/2009 12:02:03
No chance of the City's town hall councillors and officials seeing the writing on the wall - they would sooner bankrupt the city (and even lose office) than cancel this ineptly designed and planned white elephant. The Germans call town halls "rathaus" - seems appropriate, somehow!

Meanwhile we shall be saddled with even more debt than Labour left us with, the city's economy will be destroyed, the trams will not pay their way and only the voters will pay the price - the sacked councillors will get their "resettlement" allowance and the officials will get generous redundancy. Just like Westminster, actually, where the Trotskyist Labour "representatives" have also been busy!
5

Foo,

10/06/2009 12:03:04
Are there 200,000 council tax payers in Edinburgh?

Why not just charge a one off £50 to everyone? That'd be £10m in the bank, enough for a nice wee party for the opening ceremony.
6

,

10/06/2009 12:13:22
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7

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 12:13:26
#6 - More a wake than a party.

Time to fill in the holes, mothball the plans and sack for gross incompetence all associated with this disgraceful project.
8

Eric The Archer,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 12:15:48
It is about time the names and parties of the councillors who voted for this tram line to be named. I can't get the information from the city chambers. Can anyone help?
9

Foo,

10/06/2009 12:15:52
Make trams, not war.
10

Skip McClendon,

10/06/2009 12:16:46
You mean this fiasco isn't going to pay for itself?!? I am SHOCKED, I tell you, SHOCKED!!!
11

Eric The Archer,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 12:22:36
#13. Shocked? You are being way too polite!
12

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 12:25:09
"cooncil officials were originally expecting to throw £8m from the St James revamp into the bottomless pit of their vanity tram project but negotiations with developer Henderson Global Investors (HGI) have seen that figure dwindle". Yet again, the 3rd-raters in the cooncil are shown up as total eriswholes by the private sector.


13

Hector the Red,

10/06/2009 12:25:42
Reverse the descision on TRAMS and do the SMART thing!

See what I did there TRAMS - reverse - SMART!

you kill me greevsy!
14

totally indecent,

10/06/2009 12:30:13
Foo - Why don't we ask everyone who supports the trams to chip in £50 each?
Oh yeah - not much you can do with £100 eh?
15

Trams shams,

10/06/2009 12:31:05
#6 You are an arrogant twit aren't you! Please take yourself and your tram hugging cohorts along to the nearest tram hole and throw yourselves in as a sacrifice... I'd pay to watch that!!
16

,

10/06/2009 12:32:39
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17

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 12:33:24
Foo (6) - an interesting suggestion but the Council would likely have to spend more than £50 per Council taxpayer to deal with refusals to pay.
18

Eric The Archer,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 12:33:59
This farce demonstrates just how arrogant and distant the political class is from the elecorate. That is why I want to know the names of the councillors who voted for this fiasco in the first place. Then I shall be able to vote accordingly at the next local elections. Surely someone out there has the where-with-all to create a website to put all that has happened online so that Edinburgh citizens can see when it started, who was involved, the costs, 'consulations', tendering etc., etc.
19

,

10/06/2009 12:37:27
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20

Big bob 79,

10/06/2009 12:43:04
Jenny and Co may have to re-think not selling shares in Lothian Buses to fill the massive funding black hole. Either that or the shortfall should be paid for by the people and businesses that live within a mile of the line.
21

Hamish B,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 12:52:31
I for one am sick and tired of hearing about all these visions for Princes Street and The St James Development. When is something going to be done?All we ever hear is discussions and all these theories when absolutely anyone can come up with them. When are we going to see work commencing?

1)Demolition of the St James Centre
2) Prohibiting any high street name to open more than one shop in Princes Street. Why do we need 3x carphonewarehouses, 2 x phones 4 u, 2 x o2 , 3 x boots, 2 x waterstones, 2 x t-mobile ? WE OUGHT TO FORCE ALL THESE COMPANIES TO ONLY HAVE ONE BRANCH IN THE CITY CENTRE(ESPECIALLY PRICNES STREET)OR THEY MAY HAVE TWO ON THE CONDITION THAT THE SECOND BRANCH MUST BE IN ANOTHER STREET IN THE CITY CENTRE BESIDES PRINCES STREET!. THAT WAY WE WILL GET THE MIX OF SHOPS AND NOT HAVE TONS OF THE SAME TYPES OF SHOPS IN ONE AREA OF THE CITY. THE SOLUTION IS SIMPLE!!

22

Road Raga,

EDINBURGH 10/06/2009 12:52:52
#22 - The Edinburgh tram project was voted for by ELECTED members. That is a fact.
What we have here is a tiny group of anti council, anti tram yobs, who DAY AFTER DAY AFTER DAY moan and try to force their OPINION on everyone else. And they have the nerve to DEMAND elected members; do this and do that. Sounds like you want to live in a dictatorship.
23

Foo,

10/06/2009 12:55:29
#19 Trams shams

I'm arrogant? Says the idiot that supposes his backwards lookout on life represents everyone in Edinburgh.

They should line all the anti-trammers up and have them shot, then organise a conga line to dance across them in celebration of the trams...I'd pay for that.
24

P I Staker,

10/06/2009 12:59:33
#27 ".....this is a god transport system......"
as you seem to have some inside information here, can you PLEASE ask Him to get the mess sorted out sooner rather than later. Oh yes, and within budget too if He could do that as well.
25

Foo,

10/06/2009 13:00:42
Laughable Butane Soapy Soutar

Sellotape?

Brian from accounts?

Mario?
26

hibbie,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 13:04:49
A tram tax, what a bunch of ferking idiots, it is not enough they started this white elephant project they want everybody else to pay for it, shoot the idiots next to the biggest tram hole, then fill it with them and tar over it.
STOP THE TRAMS NOW BEFORE THEY CRIPPLE THE CITY ANY MORE.
27

scotsol,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 13:05:18
#21 - Great, then all the anti-trammers will end up in jail. A superb and unexpected by-product of the excellent tram scheme.
28

,

10/06/2009 13:05:23
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29

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 13:09:39
#6 Foo,

You are of course aware that originally it was promised by TIE and CEC that the Council Tax would not be used for or affected by the trams 'project'. Now none of these ne'er-do-wells will confirm or deny Council Tax increases to cover the shortfall.

Are you just a 'Devil's Advocate' (as I have long suspected) on the use of CT for the trams, or are you really in favour of rises (almost certainly a lot more than £50)? You can be sure of one thing, that is that the Labour, Lib Dems, Green and SNP Councillors are all going to be out off office at the next local authority elections.

Developers inn sites around the proposed tram line should tell CEC to get lost.

Cancel the trams NOW.
30

Rap,

10/06/2009 13:11:00
#11 I think you need to look at the Scottish Government since it was an act of Parliament that granted permission for the trams.

#4 Developers are not asked to donate before their planning application is considered. They are told they must pay up as part of the planning conditions. This £8m / £1.4m will be part of the Section 75 conditions in the planning approval, under planning gain. The Council has always been able to demand money to cover any required changes in traffic systems, ie traffic lights, roundabouts, etc caused by the new development.
Now however, you do have to question whether the group of people who are considering planning approval should be seen to gain financially when approval is given.
31

Big bob 79,

10/06/2009 13:12:08
No worries, the £6.5m shortfall can be easily met; CEC will just have to invent a few more reasons why they should close a few more schools. Wonder what will be left if they ever finish this pointless project
32

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 13:14:18
scotsol (21) - it would almost be worth it. I wonder if the Council would dare if they thought a counter suit for its negligence and gross incompetence would be raised against it.

33

,

10/06/2009 13:18:57
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34

Foo,

10/06/2009 13:19:24
41

Did you support the Iraq war? The re-purchase of a nuclear arsenal? I bet you still paid your taxes even if you didn't.



35

Yonthing!,

10/06/2009 13:19:55
Roll Up, Roll, Up - Buy A Tram

There are plenty of wealthy people and businesses in Scotland. Why don't we ask them to buy a tram each? A bit like Cow Parade, but on a bigger scale.

There's 27 trams, so £2mil each will more than cover Edinburgh Council shortfall :) Or perhaps we reduce it to per carriage,

OK, I'll get my coat :(
36

,

10/06/2009 13:20:24
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37

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 13:20:30
Rap (39) - the Scottish Parliament granted permission but the decision to proceed was taken by the Council.

I would say responsibility and accountability will rest with both bodies, although responsibility for financial shortfall rests with the Council alone.

Eric (22) - all the councillors approved the business case except the SNP and Councillor Kate McKenzie (Tory), who abstained.

Councillor McKenzie did, however, vote in March 2009 in favour of sending council officials away to find a method of paying the new cost of £125m for Phase 1B.
38

,

10/06/2009 13:24:33
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39

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 13:26:39
Foo (41) - no, I didn't support it but, to my shame, I did not voice my concern to decision-makers prior to the decision being made to proceed.

In the case of the trams, I repeatedly raised the issue of the laughable business case, prior to the decision being taken to proceed, with many politicians and officials and pointed them to the relevant documentation. Therefore, the those parties knew very well the extent of the risk being taken but proceeded to mislead the public, until fairly recently, by insisting that the business case was robust.

Their decision was led purely by political stubborness and has left the public open to significant ongoing risk and Lothian Buses with a very uncertain future indeed. For that, they should be held accountable.

40

,

10/06/2009 13:27:21
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41

Foo,

10/06/2009 13:29:48
48

Uh huh

However, the point I was making is that if people refused to pay council tax, they wouldn't have a leg to stand on.
42

Big bob 79,

10/06/2009 13:29:48

The city has grount to a halt, people on Princes street has dropped by a quarter, Federation of Small Businesses showed between January 27 and February 14 almost £24,500 had been lost because of the tramworks. Nearly every week we hear of a new disaster heaping embarrassment on the city, is it not time for Jenny Dawe and her colleagues to put their city before their SHATTERED reputations and let the people of Edinburgh show their voice

referendum now






43

Statsman,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 13:30:03
It's about time the council made a statement about the funding of this scheme, its true cost and the liability to Edinburgh council tax payers. We never wanted this scheme bar a few far left extremists. We should at least be told how much money the council are wasting on this scheme on our behalf.
44

Statsman,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 13:31:01
50 Foo

You pay East Lothian council tax. Butt out.
45

Statsman,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 13:35:45
31 Road Raga

Come on now! The only people that want dictatorships are Marxist greens like yourself. We just wanted a vote on this scheme. You want to ban everything and set up some communist green 'utopia'.
46

Foo,

10/06/2009 13:37:09
53

No I don't.

47

NorT,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 13:40:43
What does a contribution of £8,480 towards improvements at St Thomas of Aquins High School got to do with a development miles away at the East End? Is this a case of the council officials trying to squeeze every last bit out of the developer.
48

Foo,

10/06/2009 13:46:17
I remember the days when a tram story could easily pull in three hundred comments along with a fair amount of death threats/pre-arranged fist fights.
49

Eric The Archer,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 13:52:36
Sarah, #46 Thanks for this:
Eric (22) - all the councillors approved the business case except the SNP and Councillor Kate McKenzie (Tory), who abstained.
However, I need names as there has been a great deal of change in the council since that vote was taken and I want to know if those responsible are still councillors or not so that I can decide how to cast my vote come the next election. Why is it that I can't get a list of NAMES of those who voted for and against?
50

,

10/06/2009 13:56:27
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51

Big bob 79,

10/06/2009 14:02:49
#58

Who would want their name dragged through the mire? A crumbiling business case, unaccountable middle managers with no relevant expertise, shocking admissions about productivity bonuses, abysmal accounting, Pleas for bailouts, not on time, not on budget, frightening amounts of taxpayers cash hanging in the balance, it well be money to a hopeless cause as even if it is built it will not make money

Now why do you think you cannot get names?, the arrogance in local government is shocking who on earth would want to put their head on that chopping block



…… yeh appart from Jenny D
52

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 14:08:23
Eric (58) - try www.edinburgh.gov.uk, click on "find your local councillor" on the left of the screen, then click on the "complete listing" of councillors.
53

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 14:09:44
Eric (58) - sorry - should have added that these are the councillors who were in situ when the tram final business case was approved.
54

,

10/06/2009 14:19:36
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55

Way Out West,

10/06/2009 14:27:21
#51

There will be no referendum, remember the council got one hell of a red face when their much-trumpeted congestion charge got put to the vote and the answer was a resounding "NO"... do you honestly think they will risk it a second time??
56

Eric The Archer,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 14:27:56
Sarah, (61) and (62. Many thanks. These were the councillors who voted for the final business plan and that is helpful. However, there were a number votes taken before the 2007 election (which made the adoption of the final business plan more or less inevitable) and I am interested in those involved before the last election. Sorry, I should have been clearer. All the more reason for a web site dedicated to a 'time line' (as opposed to a tram line!!) so that everyone can see, in detail what happened and then make up their own minds rather than simply adopting a for or against stance. Is there a benevolent webmaster out there???
57

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 14:33:45
Eric (65) - hmmm, that's more tricky, although it may be on the Council's website under their find a document section, which will offer minutes of previous full Council meetings. I know that the initial decision to proceed to lodge the Tram Bills with the Parliament was taken in December 2003 and was supported by every councillor at that time.

Why don't you request the information under the Freedom of Information Act from the Council?

58

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 14:37:06
#45 Mr Victor Ngumbo,

Wait and see Ngumbo, Jesus has absolutely nought to do with it that's for sure. Anyway, you'll no doubt be laughing on the other side of your face when it happens.

Council Tax is probably going to be the only remaining source this bunch of pirates can call on to pay the shortfall however large or small that may be.

59

Old Cartha Boy,

10/06/2009 14:45:38
re#22/31/various from Sarah B - let's not forget that residents of Edinburgh DID reject the tram scheme since it was to have been funded from the equally ill-thought out congestion charge scheme. It was turned down as a package but certain Councillors chose to be selective and kept it afloat through other, now expensive means.
60

sceptic,

livingston 10/06/2009 14:46:11
All this negativity about the trams. Sell Lothian buses to Brian Souter(Stagecoach) for £50m then pay Souter a couple of million to take on the tram white elephant. Problem solved, unless the Scottish parliament want their money back!
61

Gina Gibson,

Wales 10/06/2009 14:53:16
Oh dear, not enough money to pay for the tramLINE!

Who would have believed such a thing would happen!!
62

The Judge,

10/06/2009 14:54:37
Given the councils recent history of collecting money owed to the council tax payers from developers, Applecross/Mountgrange I don't think we'll even see a 10th of this money.

At LEAST a year behind schedule and many millions of pounds over budget.

63

Eric The Archer,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 14:55:17
Thanks, Old Cartha Boy (69) Thank you. I think we are getting nearer to who is at the heart of the decisions made regarding the tram line. Do you know the NAMES of the "certain Councillors chose to be selective and kept it afloat"?? Many thanks.
64

,

10/06/2009 14:56:27
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65

Big bob 79,

10/06/2009 15:01:44
#70
They cannot sell Lothian Buses to Stagie or the monopolies and mergers commission will go nuts, try CEC or TEL (as they are getting given the shares as the new operating company) may well approach the likes of Arriva, a company with no stake in this area of Scotland to bid for the shares to fill the funding black hole
66

Eric The Archer,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 15:02:43
Sarah, (66) That is a good idea! Not sure how to go about it though? Again all the more reason to have a website dedicated to the history of this whole matter. It would also make a very interesting historical document for furter generations.
67

Eric The Archer,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 15:04:35
Sarah, (66) Another thought. Perhaps an investigative journalist could do this and publish it in public domain - I am sure that more than just I am interested in this information.
68

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 15:12:34
Eric (77) - on the Home page of the Council's website, there is a Freedom of Information option which provides the e-mail address to use.

I would start by saying that your request is made "Under the terms of the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002", and go on to detail exactly what information you seek. The Council would then have 21 working days in which to respond.

From previous experience, your request should be as precisely-worded and as comprehensive as possible as, if you require further information thereafter, the Council will likely take another 21 working days to produce it.

69

Old Cartha Boy,

10/06/2009 15:13:01
Re 74 - of course I know who they were! I'll e-mail them to you privately - you still at

Imaknob@hotmail.com
70

Eric The Archer,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 15:16:08
Old Cartha Boy, (81). No you've got the wrong e-mail address. It would be a great service to the public if you would post the details here.
71

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 15:18:21
Eric (78) - I have been disappointed at the lack of investigative journalists who exist these days - particularly in Scotland. Most simply seem to convey day-to-day incidents with little background investigation.

I certainly doubt that any such journalist works for the EN given that the EN flatly refused to investigate the business case and has lent its weight wholeheartedly to supporting the project at all stages.

It is only recently, as details of the funding issues and impact on Lothian Buses, etc, have come to light that this paper has started to express slight unease but, as stated to me some time ago, its reliance on the Council for many of its stories makes it unlikely to want to rock the boat too much!
72

Eric The Archer,

10/06/2009 15:18:47
Sarah B, (80) and Old Cartha Boy (81) Many thanks for your help on this - I am a complete novice at this computer stuff and I have had more help today on this article than unteem telephone calls to 'officialdom'.
73

Eric The Archer,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 15:21:38
Sarah, (83) Cynical or what? But I think you are probably correct. No wonder the voter is no longer voting! No wonder that newspaper sales are in decline!!
74

Old Cartha Boy,

10/06/2009 15:29:11
Here is a blast from the Parliament's website, column 24238, where Tavish Scott is citing the RBS HQ as a justification for the tramline:
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/officialReports/meetingsParliament/or-06/sor0322-02.htm#Col24232

Last para in 24240 re anticipated SAVINGS by CEC and TIE are also belters!

But best is in col 24241 from one Kenny Mcaskill saying this should not be approved since there is no business case and the trams would undermine a successful bus route.

Sarah B and I ought to get together to write "Trams - the Inside Story".

75

Eric The Archer,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 15:33:19
Old Cartha Boy, (87) Thanks for the links - I shall follow them up. A book is a great idea! How about it Sarah? You seem to have a lot of information at your fingertips. Who knows it could be a best seller. I could supply photographs of the roadworks (tramworks?)
76

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 15:47:55
#75 Mr Victor Ngumbo,

"I cannot laugh on my other face side."

Why, as a tram supporter don't you have two?

77

simonp,

10/06/2009 15:49:44
#87 perhaps Private Eye would be interested?
78

Dunaskin,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 15:50:32
Old Cartha Boy (69) - I don't think you are correct re the congestion charge scheme being a rejection of the entire tram scheme. Tramline 3 (to the Infirmary) was linked to the CC scheme, but TL1 (and TL2) were already set to be bankrolled by the Scottish Govt (or Executive, as I think it then was).
79

Foo,

10/06/2009 15:54:58
Eric The Archer
Old Cartha Boy

Thanks guys, comedy gold, the pair of you!
80

Eric The Archer,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 15:56:08
Foo (92) I am pleased that you are pleased.
81

Alice in Embraland,

10/06/2009 16:02:09
In 2011, I look forward to sharing the first tram with the ever-popular Prime Minister Gordon Brown and his loyal Chancellor Alastair Darling, following their re-election in Labour's 2010 landslide.

Nurse, can I have my medication now?
82

Foo,

10/06/2009 16:02:20
Eric The Archer

Nice one mate, honestly, as I'm pro-tram, I wouldn't see much value in writing a book about Edinburgh building the tram network.

Every large scale project has problems along the way, it's in there nature. I suggest you just roll with it until the whole system is up and running, then enjoy it!

It'll be a damn sight better than those diesel spewing buses that clog up our roads.

ps. Old Cartha Boy will no doubt be along in a minute to warn you of the dangers of talking to me. He doesn't like me much ever since I disagreed with him one day.
83

,

10/06/2009 16:07:56
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84

tumshie heid,

10/06/2009 16:11:47
Foo, the funniest thing on here is you and your sidekicks defending the tramline as if your jobs depended on it.
85

Foo,

10/06/2009 16:19:10
tumshie heid, the funniest thing on here is you and your sidekicks hitching up your skirts and crying about the tramlnetwork as if your jobs depended on it.

86

,

10/06/2009 16:21:55
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87

Foo,

10/06/2009 16:22:09
#100 Laughable Butane Soapy Soutar

Well done
*claps*
88

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 16:22:20
#98 Mr Victor Ngumbo

Victor, is it true you wear bones through your nose?

89

I love to wax with Duct tape,

10/06/2009 16:22:35
Don't be unkind to Foo, tumshie heid. Becoming a complete and utter laughing stock takes real effort.
90

,

10/06/2009 16:25:01
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91

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 16:25:30
Old Cartha Boy/Eric - it might be worthwhile the torment if I though for one moment that our decision-makers would read it and learn from their mistakes.

Unfortunately, they would not and will proceed to blunder from one shambles to the next as they have done for over a hundred years all over the world (Professor Bent Flyvbjerg - various academic studies).

Perhaps they could do us all a favour in future, though, and not try to use seriously flawed business cases/environmental statements, etc, to justify their decisions. I would have more respect if they just came out and said, "We know this scheme doesn't stack up and is based on highly dubious assumptions but we want it anyway"!
92

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 16:25:49
#102 Mr Victor Ngumbo,

Victor, I have put Mumbo on your trams.

Tomorrow your Council Tax will have trebled (puts on grass skirt and proceeds to dance around large metal pot containing combined staff of TIE and CEC)
93

,

10/06/2009 16:26:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
94

Foo,

10/06/2009 16:26:49
#102

Well said.

#1 Recession
#2 Iraq war.
#3 Afghan war.
#4 Nuclear Weapons.
#5 Banking Crisis.
#6 North Korea
#7 Iran
#8 Middle East crisis
.
.
.
.
.
.#9,456,324,765,897,432 Holes created by tramworks.

95

,

10/06/2009 16:28:13
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96

,

10/06/2009 16:29:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
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97

Foo,

10/06/2009 16:33:44
#105

Urusai, Kono Bakayaro
98

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 16:34:51
#112 Mr Victor,

Well, that's the breaks, sounds like bad jungle medicine for your old man - him sit on well?
99

Crazy Horse,

10/06/2009 16:35:46
I used to be Crazy Hearse until I joined the Green Party.

Nick Griffin is a pudding than can not be over-egged.
100

eric,

lothian 10/06/2009 16:38:23
Trams are boring ,Wow thats quite a shortfall!wish we had a subway like Glasgow,
101

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 16:46:46
"A developer also recently dodged paying a £500,000 contribution for a 103-bedroom hotel on Princes Street after threatening to pull the plug on its plans if forced to pay the tram tax."

Well done, call their bluff.

All developers should do the same and leave TIE and the arrogant CEC holding a very expensive white elephant.
102

I love to wax with Duct tape,

10/06/2009 16:49:55
What's up, Foobar? Can't find enough shemale porn to keep you busy today?
103

Old Cartha Boy,

Newhaven 10/06/2009 16:50:04
Re #107 from Sarah B - couldn't agree more but at least our consciences are clear that we tried to send out the message - not our fault if the masses are idiots and do not heed our clarion call!

The likes of CEC and TIE rely upon the Foos and Eric the Archers of the world to support their schemes through a mix of ignorance and indifference - we know we are right and that is enough for me!
104

Crazy Horse,

10/06/2009 16:55:19
#166

I told you in post #187 that rectilinear sausage filters are not the answer!
105

Foo,

10/06/2009 16:57:56
#119

No, there's plenty. Your wife/husband (what do you call him/her) has been quite busy of late.

Urusai, Kono Bakayaro

#120

Well at least you admit it is indeed the masses that want the trams.
106

Crazy Horse,

10/06/2009 16:58:56
What? This thread is going forwards in time?

!lausunu woH
107

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 17:02:50
Old Cartha Boy (120) - it will be a very grim satisfaction if, as I strongly suspect, our public transport fares rise substantially and our bus services deteriorate.

The realisation that this was never about improving public transport but simply about politicians liking trams is incredibly galling and gives me no comfort in relation to the competence, intelligence or foresight of the majority of our decision-makers.
108

I love to wax with Duct tape,

10/06/2009 17:05:50
so you have been looking!
109

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 17:11:01
"The city's Tory transport spokesman, Mark McInnes, said: "...........I am most concerned that council tax payers will be saddled with the extra costs."

This must be the first time that a member of the Town Council has actually had the courage and honesty to come out with a comment of this kind and proves what many of us posting on this ridiculous 'project' have been afraid of all along. The Council Tax payers of Edinburgh are going to be clobbered!!
110

tumshie heid,

10/06/2009 17:21:38
Foo/ Tony = troll
111

Crazy Horse,

10/06/2009 17:23:00
I regret to inform you that Guido has been unable to rent a cellar beneath the tram line.

Now it is up to Von Stuffingbagg and his briefcase full of avocado shrapnel at the next council meeting.
112

Euan,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 18:18:44
Once again we are seeing the absolutely laughable way that those who are in charge of this debacle are desperately trying to find the money to actually pay for their vanity project.

They can apply as much spin as they want to the tram project, but the £40 million deficit the council still has against it's own tram 'contribution' shows just what a perilous state the entire project is in.

So, as a result of their complete failure to raise the necessary funds, they now seem quite happy to pass the cost on to Edinburgh taxpayers - while at the same time trying to 'save' enough money to make up a £92 million council budget deficit over the next three years!

This effectively means the council is now around £132 million in the red with no possible way of trying to raise these funds other than to borrow (at huge interest rates), close schools, cut services and amenities and now, almost certainly, increase council tax by huge amounts - all to help pay for a totally useless and very much unwanted tram LINE.

Enough is enough. This disgraceful tram project has to be halted NOW.

Edinburgh's citizens simply do not deserve to be treated like this.










113

Euan,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 18:32:28
#132

Tony, you're acting like the total fool we all know you are.

Don't even know why you're looking forward so much to the completion of the tram project. If and when it even gets finished, you'll have been pushing up the daisies for years beforehand.


114

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 19:05:59
Euan (131) - I gather there was an article in Monday's EN about the Council borrowing £70m to bail out Waterfront Edinburgh Ltd, PARC and something else, although I can't find the item online.

If this is correct, then the Council will actually have a £92m black hole, and around £110m of borrowing.
115

Road Raga,

EDINBURGH 10/06/2009 19:06:49
#133 doom gloom eh. No doubt you will be hoping and preying that the whole thing fails. Strange sad little man.
116

Euan,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 19:14:44
#136

Here he is, the No.27 bus man who thinks the tram project is good value for money.

Doom and gloom eh? Ha!

At least I can spell 'praying'.

Ignoramus..
117

Euan,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 19:22:23
#135

Hi Sarah. Good to see you back on the forum.

I didn't actually see that article. I forgot that the council were proposing to borrow around £50-£70 million to kick start the Waterfront development.

So the figure rises to a staggering £202 million...

Not good news is it?
118

calum,

10/06/2009 19:32:28
Here he goes again at #137 with the "little boys" again! Deep fixation there methinks.
119

Euan,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 19:33:47
#138

Who in their right mind would support a project that is largely responsible for plunging Scotland's capital city into decades of crippling debt?

Who in their right mind supports a project that has caused untold disruption and is responsible for putting established local traders out of business?

Who in their right mind supports a hugely inflexible transport project that may very well end up costing this country over £1 billion?

Who in their right mind supports a project that is slowly driving a perfectly good and profitable local bus company into the ground?

Oh, one of these people is you Tony.

Says a lot about you that does..





120

bumf,

10/06/2009 19:49:11
>119. I cannot sit here and let your scurrilous unprovoked and inaccurate remark go unchallenged! It is well known to regulars on this site that Foo spends almost as much time at www.bulkmale.com drooling over pictures of Fresian and Duncan in Edinburgh.
121

Euan,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 19:55:27
#142

What you say in this particular post shows you up for exactly the type of person you really are.

You simply can't handle the truth - it hurts so bad doesn't it?

Tony, you're a sad, decrepit and ignorant old fool.





122

Euan,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 20:01:05
Ha!

You just simply can't handle the truth!!

Ha!

Off you go and pick your plot Tony, you'll be needing it soon..
123

Euan,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 20:08:25
#147

I think you should be more concerned about the arrival of the Grim Reaper than the trams Tony.
124

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 20:23:37
Euan (139) - I rarely miss an article but don't always comment.

It is quite hideous but, if nothing else, it goes to show that no matter how patronising or arrogant councillors can be when discussing the robustness of a business case before approving it, when the faced with the reality, they would rather add to the city's financial woes than admit that they were inept in the first place.

Of course, the situation is made infinitely worse by our new Director of City Development, David Anderson, who sees no problem with supporting speculative private development whilst the public picking up the tab and bear the risk.
125

Gina Gibson,

Wales 10/06/2009 20:27:06
Gorgie tony keeps rabbiting on that "Top deck is best"...


The trams, according to the manufacturers website, are SINGLE DECKED VEHICLES!!.

In this case, putting him on the "top deck" would be a good idea as he could hold onto the power cables!!

It is probably the only chance that such a senile old dodderer would get to be a CONDUCTOR!
126

tumshie heid,

10/06/2009 21:18:17
Tony is a horses ar#e.
127

Ian down under,

Musselburgh 10/06/2009 21:38:02
There are no plans for double deck trams but they would not be a mjor problem. The pantograph, that's the angled bit on the roof which collects the power, is at a fair stretch on single deck trams. double deck does not mean double height as the lower floor can be lower than a single deck tram.
Lots of places have double deck trains which happily share the same lines as single deck ones. So no problem if they decide to go double deck.
128

tumshie heid,

10/06/2009 21:56:16
So is Ian, (and a bit of a tram nerd)
129

Foo,

10/06/2009 22:13:43
tumshie heid

Its funny and a bit sad seeing you slagging all these people off. You're always quick to claim I abuse people; take a look at yourself.
130

Eric The Archer,

Edinburgh 10/06/2009 23:02:26
If only 5% of the population can directly access a tram (when and if the tram line is operational) that means that 95% of the population will need to catch a bus to catch a tram - good for the bus system! May be that was the plan all along!
131

Julian.,

edinburgh 11/06/2009 01:26:56
Euan,

Well I've been doing a bit of homework. Do I detect a change in emphasis from,

"I predict that the project will never be completed at all."

compared to,

"the tram project's future is looking very precarious indeed and that it may never be completed at all."
132

Ian down under,

Musselburgh 11/06/2009 05:29:30
Tumshie heid.
Always amazes me that being knowledgable about anything that runs on rails confers nerdship but driving clumsy 4x4s or reproductive organ substitute sports cars does not.
If you must know my knowledge comes professionally from many years in the rail industry in 2 hemispheres.
That experience is what makes me amazed that light rail /trams are a success everywhere they have been developed but apparently uniquely for the whole world will be a failure in Edinburgh.
This could actually be a reflection about Edinburgh's ability rather than the transport mode.
It is a bit like football. All over the world there are great teams who play magnificent and entertaining football and winning major trophies and then ther are teams in Edinburgh.....................
133

Ian down under,

Musselburgh 11/06/2009 05:30:58
Tumshie heid.
Always amazes me that being knowledgable about anything that runs on rails confers nerdship but driving clumsy 4x4s or reproductive device substitute sports cars does not.
If you must know my knowledge comes professionally from many years in the rail industry in 2 hemispheres.
That experience is what makes me amazed that light rail /trams are a success everywhere they have been developed but apparently uniquely for the whole world will be a failure in Edinburgh.
This could actually be a reflection about Edinburgh's ability rather than the transport mode.
It is a bit like football. All over the world there are great teams who play magnificent and entertaining football and winning major trophies and then ther are teams in Edinburgh.....................
134

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 11/06/2009 10:46:39
Ian, if you are such an expert can you please provide a list of new build tram systems that have met their original objectives, because according to the National Audit Office no new build system in the UK has done so.
135

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 11/06/2009 12:43:56
WHY is there a tram tax????

The tram was a stand alone scheme that was to cost £570M. Covering up overspends by grabbing money off developers to subsidise it means it is costing more than that and that was never agreed.

If developers can pay a 'fee' to the council for developments then surely it should go to the causes the need it, schools and policing?

What is the real cost of trams if council are selling off family silver and allocating other revenues to it?
136

Ian down under,

Musselburgh 11/06/2009 23:54:06
#144
Try Manchester Metrolink, successful and expanded and expanding again, ordering more trmas to handle the traffic. Don't forget that originally Manchester was to have had an underground system linking the 2 main stations, Victoria and Piccadilly but the 1980s Tory government baulked at the cost and Metrolink was built as a compromise along with the BR Windsor Link rail line, which incidentally is proving so successful they are looking at ways to increase its capacity.
Nottingham Express Transit_ passenger figures higher than expected and being extended
Croydon Tramlink, ordering more trams and extending network to handle the passengers.
Sheffield supertram has been less successful but there were questions about its routing and even it is growing.
Just a short distancve from UK is the Dublin Luas tramway which has been a roaring succes and is expanding along with extension and expansion of suburban rail.

 

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