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Hotel will 'enhance' city skyline

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Published Date: 02 June 2009
By BRIAN FERGUSON
A TOWERING hotel development earmarked for a long-running gap site next to Edinburgh's Haymarket railway station will "enhance" the city's skyline and create a major new landmark for the capital, a senior council official claimed yesterday.
Design expert Lawrence Dowdall told a public inquiry into the controversial £200 million scheme that it would have little or no impact on the most significant viewpoints around the capital.

But he clashed with the lawyer representing the city's main heritage body over how the most important views were judged.

He also rejected suggestions the council had ignored its own rules by approving the scheme when it emerged that a local plan for the area suggested a new landmark in the area should be no more than six storeys high.

Mr Dowdall, an architect for 27 years, was the key adviser to the council on whether Irish developer Tiger's controversial five-star hotel development would affect the city's historic skyline.





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1

Buttress,

02/06/2009 06:21:35
Design 'expert'?

Try reading the comments here:-

http://www.bdonline.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=426&storycode=3141536&channel=426&c=1

It's no wonder Edinburgh gets such dreaful new developments, if this is the advice it receives!
2

Buttress,

02/06/2009 06:48:57
And the tram contributions will be enhanced also.
3

Kate,

Zurich 02/06/2009 07:07:44
Of course it would enhance the city skyline, if that city were Chicago, New York, Hong Kong or so...NOT EDINBURGH!
4

dba,

HAYMARKET 02/06/2009 08:00:11
'Design Expert' EH?.... X = the un-known factor: spurt = a drip... UNDER PRESSURE.

'27 years as an architect'... and HE knows best?

'Little or no impact on the visual skyline' what has this witness, been inbibing, inhaling and/or injecting?

Does this 'expert' realise that (a) the citizens of the city PAY HIS WAGES (b) He is supposed to listen to and take cognisance of the wishes of the 'citizens' as
opposed to 'big buck' developers and (c)HIS personal opinions and feelings must be secondary to what will be the best for the city and it's inhabitants in FUTURE generations.

Has this man had any form of relations with the present archictects or developers in the past or any expectations of the same in the future?
5

Buttress,

02/06/2009 09:05:05
If he's such an expert, and an architect, then why is he working for CEC?!

What makes him such a proclaimed 'expert'?
6

noswod,

Honestas 02/06/2009 10:07:00
Another monstrosity forced on the beautiful toon by greedy short term developers.
7

Seb,

02/06/2009 10:23:10
What makes anyone expert on a subject? Experience and possibly qualifications presumably. You'd prefer that CEC planning dept to be staffed by numpties?
8

Buttress,

02/06/2009 10:30:18
You mean it isn't? I think many will be surprised if you say not...
9

Seb,

02/06/2009 11:11:40
They may not be as dab hands as you at googling, copying and pasting ;)
10

Buttress,

02/06/2009 11:26:51
Oh, but that allows the wider world to read and understand certain things. You have to know what you are looking for, too.

It's not all I do ;-)
11

Buttress,

02/06/2009 12:09:35
Still, you can read more about the proceedings here:-

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Hotel-39will--cast-West.5324238.jp

Here's abit of cut n paste from that:-

'Armed with local skyline charts provided by the association, Lord McLuskey showed that the sun would not rise above the 17-storey hotel in the winter months, consigning Grosvenor Street – home to the exclusive Hilton Grosvenor Hotel – to shadow.

Mr Dowdell, who was giving evidence at the two-week public inquiry into the plans for the disused Morrison Street goods yard, conceded that such an outcome was "likely".'



12

Arfur,

02/06/2009 13:18:52
will it buggery
13

Jaded1,

Edinburgh 02/06/2009 13:22:00
What's happening to our city?
14

Jonesy,

hollandski 02/06/2009 14:46:05
How can lawrence dowdall claim that such a high rise hotel building will enhance the city skyline? Does he want mediocrity in architecture spread to Edinburgh as well? The only thing that is likel;y to be enhanced is dowall's bank balance.
15

Buttress,

02/06/2009 15:11:18
He's employed by the council. That's the council which sold the site to the developer.
16

Andrew Scalloway,

Edinburgh 02/06/2009 16:07:40
You're all a bunch of gits. I live near Haymarket and a hotel of this sort would be great. Just a pity it's not 25 or 30 stories high.
17

Buttress,

02/06/2009 16:09:25
Nah, it will be rubbish and look dreadful. Far too tall, poor design. Bunch of gits? Well, such sophistication!

18

allan58,

edinburgh 02/06/2009 16:22:46
Surely the last thing Edinburgh needs is yet another hotel!! One of the fatuous arguments put forward by the developer was that the hotel "would attract vistors to Edinburgh that might not otherwise come"!

How many visitors I wonder will actually USE this 5 star carbuncle? If that is the best argument that can be put forward then surely this plan is in dire straits ?
19

Kitti Kat,

Newtown Square 02/06/2009 18:50:17
Enhance? Just like that dreadful thing that reminded me of a grenade or pineapple that sits sit the Tower of London! This kind of building will not attract too many on the grounds that it is "attractive to the skyline". As a frequent visitor (and at a four or five star hotel) I will not be booking a room there. Give me the older hotels with mod-cons and character any time. Boo to the designers of this future eye-sore!!
20

Rap,

02/06/2009 21:44:48
Don't worry, he was outclassed today by a real expert, Herb Stovel.
21

Rap,

02/06/2009 21:57:11
#1 Buttress
Metzstein was asked to comment on the 3* hotel (the grey monolithic thing to the right of Tiger Tower) and he said was without context and style. So, he can't be totally wacky.

Dowdall was a piece of work though.
22

Buttress,

02/06/2009 22:03:43
Well, maybe not totally wacky, just Murphy and he are,let's say, close.

Yes, masterstroke getting Prof Stovel along! I can't see CEC having that sort of expertise at hand. Aided a little by the UNESCO report, which I supect CEC wasn't quite expecting.

23

Buttress,

02/06/2009 22:05:23
"Dowdall was a piece of work though"

Well, yes. But not exactly anyone important, eh?
24

Rap,

02/06/2009 22:08:42
It was made clear he was there as a favour to Murphy (in fact Murphy was all aflutter, rushing to move seats for his wheelchair to get in, etc to made his guru happy)
25

Rap,

02/06/2009 22:11:17
Neither Tiger nor CEC were expecting the UNESCO report. CEC woman said she had not seen it and as far as she knew it was still marked as confidential in CEC. So, no-one in CEC has yet admitted to seeing it apart from Lowrie in the Scotsman article :-

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotland/Unesco-slates-Caltongate--scheme.4986093.jp

Stovel was not speaking on behalf of ICOMOS or UNESCO, just a very experienced man. He was in complete control, a really interesting 6.5 hours.
26

Rap,

02/06/2009 22:14:57
The CEC put up three people, none of which admit to being involved in the original planning application or decision (nice slopey shoulder move by CEC there). Apparently everyone involved no longer works for the Council.

Transport man was unbelievably ill-prepared, Principle Planner was inexperienced and just said ask the other two, and Dowdall was ill-tempered and really grated. But didn't come across as an expert. Lord M gave him a cross-examination worthy of a high court judge and it turns out Dowdall doesn't live in Edinburgh and felt his worthy experience trumped anyone who lived in Edinburgh.
27

Buttress,

02/06/2009 22:23:38
I think CEC really has not a clue about the clout of UNESCO; really, not a clue about anything much, which explains a great deal.

Yes, so many mess it up and then move out!

But the UNESCO report will be public domain very soon, and then it will be the DCMS which will be involved, not simply CEC or HS.

"A World Heritage Conversation with Professor Herb Stovel

What makes Edinburgh distinctive and how does it compare with other World Heritage cities?

These were the issues addressed by Professor Herb Stovel, one of the world’s leading authorities on conservation matters, in discussion with the EWH Chairman Professor Charles McKean.

In 1995 Professor Stovel completed an evaluation of the city which led to the inscription of the Old and New Towns of Edinburgh on the UNESCO World Heritage List."

From EWH website. Frankly, there could have been no-one with more clout appearing.


28

Rap,

02/06/2009 22:28:24
Stovel was up for 6.5 hours and a lot of the X examination was about whether Edinburgh had sufficient policies in place (Stovel said both law and policies were not fully in place to cover WH status). But the point is whether the policies were sufficiently dealt with and they weren't. CEC had no heritage person to deal with WHS which is a real weakness if they are trying to claim they met all the criteria when considering the application.
29

Buttress,

02/06/2009 22:34:29
No of course it hasn't the policies in place, but that's a UK wide WHS problem which the DCMS is not really addressing either. Can of worms.

The 'gentleman's agreement' of management plans are so easily ignored.

We are supposed to rely on existing listed building and conservation area legislation, which CEC is quite happy to ignore also. I don't know if it is wilful, or simply because the planners are not up to the job.
30

Rap,

02/06/2009 22:48:21
As an outsider it comes across as wilful. They are breaching so many of their own policies with no justification. Individual planners may be inadequate but you'd sort of assume head of planning / city dev would be up to the job - obviously not. Big responsibility.
31

Buttress,

02/06/2009 22:56:47
It's the same all over. Big developers can run rings around them all, and many are happy to have it that way. History is all very well, they argue, but if it gets in the way of making money... short term, short sight.

32

Rap,

02/06/2009 23:09:37
Exactly, developers get to bend their ear for months. There is a letter from CEC to Tiger before the planning application ws submitted and after saying heights were exceeded across the board, landmark building doesn't have to be tall, blah blah. The existing Local Plan says tall buildings won't be allowed if they adversely affected the skyline. Now the yet to be adopted local plan mentions landmarks can be built if the CEC say so. So, they have changed their Local Plan to fit the planning permission they have granted. And now they think this landmark building isn't too tall. And yet apart from a bit of squishing here, and tilting the daft collar on Tiger Towers nothing has really changed. So, what happened bteeen Oct and June to persuade CEC it was all suddenly okay? No-one is present to account for the volte face and we will never know.
33

Buttress,

02/06/2009 23:17:40
"Now the yet to be adopted local plan mentions landmarks can be built if the CEC say so."

Yes, developers have bent ears, along with architects with egos. This is the test case, if it is passed, then the rest will follow.

One man's landmark is many another's eyesore.

!Don't underestimate the pernicious influence of the Chamber of Commerce either!)
34

Rap,

02/06/2009 23:32:36
I know, very worrying case. It would be very entertaining to watch if it wasn't so scary to consider the wrong outcome.

Mr Birse did an okay job. Not as ranty as I expected. He was questioned on whether the 1600 jobs he bandied about were really new jobs or redistributed and he couldn't say. And he conceded the figures were from Tiger. He was also asked by someone what the scheme would do to sustain existing business in the area and he didn't answer, just waffled about how new business would go to site.
35

Buttress,

02/06/2009 23:44:36
Oh yes, it's so easy to make sweeping statements in press releases, but the claims of developers are so rarely ever properly investigated.

Moral:- don't attend a public inquiry unless you know what you are talking about, or you can be made to look very foolish.

Where is this new business to come from?

Well, it will soon be the witching hour, another news report - Herb Stovel's six plus hours in essence, courtesy of the Scotsman!
36

Rap,

02/06/2009 23:57:19
Brian Ferguson only stayed for 3 of the hours. But should still make interesting reading.

37

Buttress,

03/06/2009 00:07:45
http://news.scotsman.com/edinburghplanningissues/Hotel-would-39obliterate39-city39s-heritage.5327538.jp
38

Rap,

03/06/2009 00:08:20
3 hours was enough for the key points

 

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