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It's Princes Street v George Street in battle to ban traffic

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Published Date: 15 April 2009
IT is already shaping up to be one of the city's great transport debates.
While the idea of banning traffic permanently from Princes Street is taking hold among traders on the famous thoroughfare, businesses on nearby George Street say it is this road that should be pedestrianised instead.

The Evening News reported yesterday that city council chiefs are set to explore the possibility of reserving Princes Street only for trams and cycles in the wake of the successful traffic diversions for tram works. The idea was backed by deputy council leader Steve Cardownie.

And today the chairman of the Princes Street Traders Association Rob Winter said: "We feel it would bring the whole city centre together.

The transport issue would have to be worked out, and thanks to publicity by the council and Lothian Buses most people seem to be in the groove with it as it is just now."

However, the feeling a street away was completely different.

George Street, which was used to a more sedate level of traffic before the diversions were put in place, has taken on much of the bus traffic from Princes St.

Denzil Skinner, treasurer of the George Street Association, said: "George Street would be far more suited to pedestrianisation, and there's no way both streets could be. It would just be a tremendous public space, with Charlotte Square and St Andrew Square at each end.

"I don't think we (George St businesses] would want the level of buses that there are now going down the street."

Motoring groups also raised questions about the scheme.

Neil Greig, a spokesman for the Institute of Advanced Motorists, added: "Princes Street probably should be pedestrianised.

But there is no way Queen Street could cope as Edinburgh's main thoroughfare for traffic, in places it goes down to one lane, and some innovative ideas would have to be brought in at both ends to make it work."

Tom Campbell, chief executive of Essential Edinburgh – a group dedicated to improving business viability of the city centre – added: "

There is no clearly defined right or wrong answer – there are people in retail who would fall on both sides of the argument."

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 15 April 2009 12:06 PM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Traffic issues
 
1

Statsman,

Edinburgh 15/04/2009 11:37:50
How about pedestrianising neither of them? This council is overstepping the mark. It's bad enough we never got a vote on the trams. Now they are trying to change Edinburgh with no consultation using trams as an excuse.

The thing that needs changed is the council - a complete clear out of the Beggites and other extremist lunatics.

2

WallaceJohn,

- www.juryteam.org 15/04/2009 11:45:16
I'm with you Statsman on all counts.

With Carclownie's track record, he could be in the Tory party next week if the money is good enough so would he move his policies lock, stock and barrel to them. This seems like his old Liebore past coming back to haunt him. The SNP councillors on the council follow on his every word as though he is Jesus not knowing that he really is Edinburgh's Damien McBride being followed round by a complete set of Drapers.

P.S.
We have detected some potentially unsuitable words in your post:
Lie-bour
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3

,

15/04/2009 11:56:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
4

Liz,

Edinburgh 15/04/2009 12:01:22
I agree, a pedestrianised George Street would be a far more attractive proposition than Princes Street. The architecture there is far superior than most of the cheap looking buildings we have now on Princes Street. Theres is also far more potential to have for shops and cafes on both sides of the street and it is wide enough to even have some outdoor cafes/bars down the centre.
5

jonnythejambo,

Edinburgh 15/04/2009 12:03:43
I agree that George Street is most suitable. Apart from anything else, it's not pedestrianised if trams are on it anyway! As for traffic control, have princes street going one way, I would suggest west end to east, queen street going the other way and allow traffic to move between and access mound through Hanover Street. Would mean George street pedrstrianised in two parts but should work, IMO.
6

Statsman,

Edinburgh 15/04/2009 12:10:27
Pedestrianising George Street isn't even on the cards. This is misdirection by the EEN. The parking fines from George Street are worth a small fortune to the near bankrupt council.

This is a false choice. It's not George Street or Princes Street. It's Princes Street proposed by the Judas SNP leader.
7

DistroHype,

15/04/2009 12:19:46
Reroute the trams along George Street.
8

nSyratzcGlaw,

15/04/2009 12:20:26
And its all conjecture anyway. Did you know that they are planning to build a giant snail on top of the castle. Allegedly.
9

nSyratzcGlaw,

15/04/2009 12:21:10
7 actually thats a great idea. Or it would have been about 3 years ago.

I wonder why this wasnt considered?
10

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/04/2009 12:22:37
#6 Got any dubious stats to back that one up, Statsman - like yesterday's "75% of people oppose the tram" which was in fact a self-selecting click-poll on a web site which drives its traffic by publishing inflammatory anti-tram stories - i.e. this one?
11

Harry Callahan,

15/04/2009 12:26:24
#4 Liz

I agree with your comment "The architecture there is far superior than most of the cheap looking buildings we have now on Princes Street".

However, if Princes Street is pedestrianised, there would be plenty of space to have tables and chairs outside cafes etc and the view of the gardens and Edinburgh Castle would be a much better view.
12

Arrow,

edinburgh 15/04/2009 12:26:58
Great idea. having wrecked Princes Street they now want to have every bus going along the best street in Edinburgh for shopping and visually attractive. is it only to enable the great unwashed to see stuff in the shops they cannot afford?
pedestrianise Princes Street with a tram going along it with limited stops? it is therefore not a pedestrianised street but a one-sided shopping(?) street with a public transport link. get real. more proof that the loonys have taken over the asylum.
13

I love to eat Sellotape,

15/04/2009 12:27:28
86% of inflammatory anti-tram stories are made of Emmenthal cheese.

Allegedly.
14

adogcatcherwearsauniformto,

musselburgh 15/04/2009 12:28:44
Dear Neil,

Sometimes I dispair of you I really do. Do you not yet comprehend that having a reduction to a single lane makes it a sure-fired idea that CEC will push through with all the resources they can muster to justify their existence, and even then it will become a bus lane.

Will you still be pontificating when the IAM go bust ?
15

Mallory,

Edinburgh 15/04/2009 12:31:13
How about NuLabLie
16

Brian Ferrari,

15/04/2009 12:34:28
#11

Except trams will be trundling by on a regular basis. Each hour. Every hour of the day.

I think George Street would be great if it was pedestrianised.
17

Brian Ferrari,

15/04/2009 12:35:05
PS you can already sit in the gardens and see your castle.
18

Starkravingsane,

Edinburgh 15/04/2009 12:36:12
George Street is too narrow - Princes Street has the width. Anyway, how can they pedestrianise Princes Street - it'll have trams running along it - that's traffic!
19

I love to eat Sellotape,

15/04/2009 12:39:00
I think Brian Ferrari should be pedestrianised. That would be awesome.
20

nSyratzcGlaw,

15/04/2009 12:40:56
I would like to see dundee turned into a big bowl of Granny soup.
21

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 15/04/2009 12:42:44
Statsman:

Spot on.

It's time for the bulldozer.

For christs sake lets go back to the way it was in the 1980s. Things worked then and Edinburgh was alive. No trams. No oversized CPZ. Parking allowed on saturday afternoons. No un-neccessary parking restrictions. All roads open to all traffic.

Why did we ever let Begg & Lazorowicz ruin it all?
22

Big bob 79,

15/04/2009 12:46:14
#13 also

94% of all statistics are made up!
23

Harry Callahan,

15/04/2009 12:46:24
#19 Go and spend a weekend in Amsterdam if you have not been.
24

nSyratzcGlaw,

15/04/2009 12:48:08
A good point Harry, You can get trams up a danish pastry if you try hard enough.

25

Edinburgh 100,

Musselburgh 15/04/2009 12:52:26

1. If any one is niave enough to think that pedestrianising Princess Street has only recently put forward as an option then you need your heads looked at.

2. The likelihood of Shandwick Place being opened up again to general traffic is also very dubious.

3. The COONCIL NUMPTIES are using the tram LINE (not network) as an excuse to impliment policies on traffic that would not be supported by the general population of Edinburgh. Hence no referendum on the tram line.

4. The reason why Edinburgh is working at the moment is purely because people are ignoring the diversions and signs that have been put in place.

5. try getting into Coates Crescent if you obey the signs then you cant.
26

Brian Ferrari,

15/04/2009 12:53:50
#26

If anyone has more than one head, then I would agree.
27

nSyratzcGlaw,

15/04/2009 12:57:34
I am in coates crescent now. What do you want me to do now.
28

HughB,

Edinburgh 15/04/2009 12:58:59
This has always been on the cards.

The plan is really to ban all traffic right along the tram route, so that it appears to be super efficient at getting from the expensive new flats in Leith out to the airport to catch their daily flights to London.

Howeverm with only one tram stop on Princes Street, it is unlikely to attract many shoppers, who will all have to drag their purchases up to George St or Queen St, where all the common people go to catch buses, not trams.
29

Big bob 79,

15/04/2009 13:00:40
#28 drive as fast as possible to the end of the road and see if its possible to get through the traffic at the junction without getting T-boned

let us know how you get on..
30

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/04/2009 13:00:49
#28 Put up a sign saying "if you lived here you'd be home by now".
31

nSyratzcGlaw,

15/04/2009 13:02:00
29 and dont forget those who only have one arm.
32

Bill MacD,

15/04/2009 13:02:02
Ignore the loudmouth car lobby. Their heads are too full of fumes to think beyond their own lazy slob-world. Pedestrianise the whole city centre and let's turn this back into a city for all the people rather than the mean-minded few.
33

nSyratzcGlaw,

15/04/2009 13:03:20
Big Bob and others.

I cant get out of coates crescent. can someone let my mum know.
34

Big bob 79,

15/04/2009 13:03:52
LOL
Thats what you get for selling fish door to door in the city centre!...
35

Jams,

Edinburgh 15/04/2009 13:04:49
I agree with #26 - not sure if his grammar is 100% correct but I get the message. Mebbe Mr Ferrari is too slow (hence the complaints in F1).

This is long term 'head in the clouds' thinking by people who say they have our best interests at heart, but then decide what our best interests are. They will look back in wonder at the ghost town they have created and fail to see how any of it could be their fault.
36

notonimbies,

Central 15/04/2009 13:08:54
Am all in favour of pedestrianising Princes Street. There is no other shopping street in the world that has that wonderfull asset of the gardens on the other side of the road from retail hell. The gardens and the street need to be easily accessible and not separated by a bus motorway. Trams do not belch deisel and rattle and roar to defening levels. Before anyone says it, they are not silent either to the danger of pedestrians. All you anti tram nimbies should visit civilised cities where they work superbly, with a far superior service than any bus that crashes and bangs into every pot hole.
37

thehitmaster,

15/04/2009 13:14:01
Another day, another story about changes and another load of moans & groans - should Edinburgh be renamed the capital of miserable folk!
38

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/04/2009 13:15:07
#34 Your mum says she's not in the least bit surprised, that you should have listened to that nice man from Musselburgh, and that its sausages for tea and you're not to be late.
39

Spondoolicks,

location location 15/04/2009 13:17:01
Edinburgh is a working city so there should be cars in the centre of town.

Open up the streets!
40

Pilrig,

Livingston 15/04/2009 13:17:29
It's time the SNP chased Cardownie back to the Labour Party where he belongs.
41

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/04/2009 13:18:29
#40 Brilliant argument. Presumably Glasgow is not a working city, which is why their main shopping street is pedestrianised?
42

Hmm ...,

15/04/2009 13:19:49
... sounds to me as though the main effect of the trams will be to build a barrier along its line with no other traffic along it, limited opportunities to cross it and a general refusal to permit general traffic to enter the city centre.

And hitmaster #38 - the reason that Edinburgh folk are miserable is the twenty years of Begg-ite policies that have closed and narrowed roads, introduced unnecessary bus lanes often all day (now a s a "quality bus lane"!) and now shut out the traffic altogether.

Never mind the city's flaging economy - just look at the line of buses and trams (one of these will do at 120 feet long)!
43

Pilrig,

Livingston 15/04/2009 13:21:22
22 - Begg is a "traffic expert" after all. : )
44

nSyratzcGlaw,

15/04/2009 13:22:15
43 The reason edinburgh people are miserable is "just because they are".

Take my advice. flee.

OR go and look at how trams operate in other cities.

Generally, things work fine.
45

Pilrig,

Livingston 15/04/2009 13:22:43
Save the planet (contd. page 94)
46

Why can't I just choose a name!,

Edinburgh 15/04/2009 13:24:19
Are these articles made up?

How coule they pedestrianise Princes Street, people would get run over by Trams!

Edinburgh's problem is that all east/ west and north/ south traffic seems to have to cross the city centre which is a recipe for congestion.

The only sensible option is to build proper roads around the centre, widen Ferry Road, a decent route through the New Town and tunnel under the city centre. Should guarantee another 20 years of roadworks and mayhem!
47

Pilrig,

Livingston 15/04/2009 13:24:33
45 - like Blackpool, for instance. Embra's trams will have much in common with the 'Pool cos they will be confined to a single line.
48

Padraig,

15/04/2009 13:28:09
Sorry Pilrig #44 - Begg was an inadequate economics lecturere before he got his traffic "expertise" in the City Council.

And close George Street to traffic? Better to keep smelly buses in Princes Street where the open side of the street has the best chance of clearing the diesel particulates. And the parking in george Street both enables drivers to visit the shops conveniently AND provides the highest level of parking income foa any local authority outside Central London!

The City Council can't afford to give that up!

But what we really need is a new City Council, one which will bite the bullet and get rid of the Trotskyist officials who are pursuing their own dogma-driven agenda for a socialist paradise where everyone has the same - nothing!
49

jimson weed,

pluto 15/04/2009 13:28:38
Which street would be better off being car free?
There's only one way to find out.....fight!
50

Voice o reason,

Innerspace 15/04/2009 13:30:57
"While the idea of banning traffic permanently from Princes Street is taking hold among traders....."

Erm, Banning "TRAFFIC"?

"Traffic is formally organized in many jurisdictions, with marked lanes, junctions, intersections, interchanges, traffic signals, or signs. Traffic is often classified by type: heavy motor vehicle (e.g., car, truck); other vehicle (e.g., moped, bicycle); and pedestrian."

So in other words, NOTHING will be able to access Princes St. No Cars, No buses, No lorries, No Bicycles, No Trams, not even People.

Blimey, they've not thought this through very well have they?
51

Padraig,

15/04/2009 13:31:21
YES Pilrig #48 - and another similarity between Edinburgh and Blackpool trams is that neither is intended to meet local travel needs - both are intended only as novelties for tourists!

And the fantasy folk who aren't going to live at the Waterfront for the foreseeable future!
52

nSyratzcGlaw,

15/04/2009 13:34:04
Hmm I was thinking more of european cities rather than blackpool but thanks for letting me know where you all go for your holidays.
53

nSyratzcGlaw,

15/04/2009 13:36:05
51 are you a complete ass ? Cant you see this is just complete conjecture ?
54

I love to eat Sellotape,

15/04/2009 13:40:24
Better a complete ass than an incomplete one. An incomplete ass is a hideous thing.

55

nSyratzcGlaw,

15/04/2009 13:41:50
escpecially if its the orangey bit in the middle.

anyway, you are all tinkers and I'm fed up with this.
56

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/04/2009 13:43:39
#54 Are you still in Coates Crescent? Could you pop into the Cavalry Club and see if they can fit in a table of politicos this evening? Sarah Brown just rang to say the lamb's off and she hasn't got enough raspberries for the lemon tart. Ta.
57

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/04/2009 13:45:09
I had to change n-i-p to "pop" in that post, because apparently n-i-p is an offensive word in Scotsmanland.
58

Ron D,

Enybru 15/04/2009 13:51:58
Pedestrianise both of them.
59

nSyratzcGlaw,

15/04/2009 13:53:33
We need to nippon this in the bud, anyone got a photocopier ?

To cheer you all up , recession has finally hit supermarioland ( i am to get a 20% reduction in pay).

60

Voice o reason,

Innerspace 15/04/2009 14:15:32
54: No only a part of me is an ass, and a juicy double it is too....
61

Starkravingsane,

Edinburgh 15/04/2009 14:19:01
#29
That'll be to match the one shop that'll be left by the time it's finished.....
62

Enemy ninja kayaku foo ,

15/04/2009 14:40:58
Who cares? Can anyone honestly say there's anything interesting in Edinburgh worth driving to see?

Let's just pedestrianise all of Jockland and dance.

:D-<
:D|-<
:D/-<
63

Mr Fuzzy,

Edinburgh 15/04/2009 14:42:00
#9
There are more residents in George Street than on Princes Street. The parking spaces are for residential use at nights and commercial use during the day.
64

totally indecent,

15/04/2009 14:46:17
60- Aw ma puir wee lamb! You'll just have to sell some shares while the price is so high.
65

JFW,

15/04/2009 15:26:09
George St being pedestrianised would get a thumbs up from me, if everything else is planned properly. I think the city would benefit greatly, not just the George st businesses. Obviously with some consideration for resident's parking requirements it could become a very attractive street with real potential for a proper summer-time cafe culture. Princes St will be much improved without a large amount of bus traffic but I still think some buses need access to it alongside the tram to keep shopping on Prince St viable. George St is not suitable for any bus traffic at all IMO.
66

Steinbuhl,

Loanhead 15/04/2009 15:28:58
We know that design for trams is an issue between TIE and the contractors. But how can the Council now propose pedestrianisation within days of tracklaying starting in Princes Street? The design as I understand it is narrowing the shopping pavement, then tram tracks, buses and taxis and then the gardens pavement. Take out buses and taxis, and the question is why narrow the pedestrianised shopping pavement and have the trams hard up against it? If the Council is serious the whole street should be redesigned. But that would be several months work no doubt! I see another cocked-up scheme looming! Steinbuhl
67

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 15/04/2009 16:00:17
"George Street is this road that should be pedestrianised instead."

Agreed, compared to George Street, the shops in Princes Street (other than Jenners and the bookshops) are at best non-descript and at worst nothing more than tacky. George Street is now the home of Edinburgh's best shops, shopping-wise, Princes Street is a thing of the past.

Leave Princes Street as the main throughfare for buses and trams travelling East and West, divert cars along Queens Street (both ways) and forget about pedestrianising Princes Street.
68

The Judge,

15/04/2009 16:18:55
Lets put things into perspective shall we.

A single person who:

Is a failed New Labour politician.

Is a failed businessman.

Has a violent and aggressive personality.

Who possesses no interpersonal skills.

Who has failed to keep control of a tiny company called Tie who are building a SINGLE LINE.

Who has been subsidised from the public purse his whole adult life.

Wants to reorganise the city centre to create a cafe culture on one of the most iconic streets in the world. With no thought to how he is actually going to archive it or better still pay for it.

I wouldn't trust The Cheerleader to organise my sock drawer let alone the capital of Scotland.

When the SNP are kicked out of Edinburgh and we're stuck with New Labour for another decade, I hope the people at the top of The SNP realise Cardownie was one of the biggest factors why people stopped voting SNP.
69

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 15/04/2009 16:33:50
#69 The Judge,

With respect, Judge, Cardownie might be be one reason why most of us won't be voting SNP at the next Holyrood/local elections, but there are a number of other reasons:-

* Their reluctance to stop the trams (a flagship policy).
* The u-turn on Coucil Tax (another flagship - sunk).
* Promises of extra police.
* Reduction of class sizes.
etc etc.

Re Princes Street via George Street, George Street should now be the main tourist shopping attraction and pedestrianising it would greatly help. Princes Street, as such, has been scuppered by the trams and the tacky shopping environment now in that street. Princes Street is yesterday's street.

70

Realist,

Edinburgh 15/04/2009 16:44:46
I was in a european city last week where they had a 'tram' line and one thing that i noticed was that they had removed all the buses from the city centre to accommodate it. Great you might think - lots of pedestrianised streets and no hold ups for the shiny trams. But you could not buy a through single ticket from the buses on to the trams (or from the other seperate tram lines for that matter) and had to pay twice for a through journey.
Do you think Mr Souter when he owns Lothian Buses will wnat anything to do with the trams? Not only will we have to walk from Princes St to George St if we do not live on the tram 'line' we will also have to pay twice.
This is all part of the hidden agenda and implications that TIE et al have known for ages but never told anyone about
71

Enemy ninja kayaku foo ,

15/04/2009 16:45:54
* Their reluctance to stop the trams (a flagship policy).

A brilliant transport initiative, well done.

* The u-turn on Council Tax (another flagship - sunk).

I'd have been £9 better off. I can live with that so meh.

* Promises of extra police.

Every single politician since politics began has promised this one. And every single person since time began hasn't believed them

* Reduction of class sizes.

Average class size in China 66 million.

Quit complaining Peter.
72

Enemy ninja kayaku foo ,

15/04/2009 16:47:50
#71 - It's already been confirmed that one ticket will allow you on both the trams and the buses.

You fail at research.
73

Realist,

Edinburgh 15/04/2009 17:00:25
#73 more fool you for believing anything they say.

They can only 'force' through fares if they own both the trams and the buses. There is no way that Lothian Buses will be in public ownership at the end of this, they need the cash to build their white elephant
74

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 15/04/2009 17:10:15
#68 Peter

Absolutely. Princes Street is fast becoming as much of a national embarrassment as the Lawnmarket, like a tartan Blackpool without the irony. Who the hell wants to sit with their latte and listen to the piped muzak coming out of the tat shops?
75

,

15/04/2009 17:16:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
76

archie12,

15/04/2009 17:32:08
#58 Apparently homosexual is also moderated in Scotsmanland - how mature!
77

Arfur,

15/04/2009 18:12:32
pedestrianise Princes street out to the west end direction (2)lanes which will have the trams.

(rip down half of Princes Street and rebuild)

pedestrianise George street and Rose street

Build a underground tunnel under the lot as part of the St James centre build so lorries can bring the shops stock

Widden Queeen street to 2 normal lanes each way, 1 in the centre for turning into the various opposite side streets and one each way for lorries/buses/taxis/future trams?

east end side of charlote square 3 lanes (1 way) all down to east end of princes street from queen street and round to lothian road etc.

west end side of charlote sq 3 lanes to queen street (1 way) through where the current bollards are stopping you get through to queen street
78

Arfur,

15/04/2009 18:13:14
oh and make the trams free if you park at the park and ride.
79

The Spook,

15/04/2009 19:54:21
The major arteries of Edinburgh are being cut. How long before she bleeds and is no more.
80

Ian down under,

Musselburgh 15/04/2009 21:25:09
Debate is great isn't it. First it was oh woe trams and pedestrianisation will kill the city and now the streets are queueing up to be pedestrianised.
It's all coming true even before the rails are laid, the trams will help to revitalise the city.
Be really adventurous and make George St buses only and cars with disabled badges. Put car parks under Charlotte Sq and St Andrew Sq maybe 3-4 levels each and that would make up for no spaces on George St except for a few disabled ones.
We're going to join the 21st century!!!
81

Ian down under,

Musselburgh 15/04/2009 21:25:53
I would like to see Arfur appointed immediately as the city planner. Can you start Monday next week?
82

Julian.,

edinburgh 15/04/2009 22:39:32
Could a spokesman for the anti-tram brigade answer a question please?

Why are the Princes Street traders wanting to effectively pedestrianise the street if, as you all claim, they are suffering so badly with the street closed to traffic at the moment?
83

Julian.,

edinburgh 15/04/2009 22:48:34
#80 Arfur,

I've got an even better idea.

Instead of doubling the national debt spending billions saving car companies and reducing VAT by 2.5% why doesn't the government invest the money in something useful...like underground trams/metros in all our major city centres. Would have a triple benefit of putting people back to work, saving money long term and helping the environment.

Then again, I suppose we don't really think long term in this country. We're all too busy thinking about what disposable consumer good we can spend our money on next.
84

easts_mat,

Sydney 16/04/2009 01:08:56
#38 - soooo true lol
85

COLINTON.MAINS,

Oakville Ontario 16/04/2009 02:18:10
this.city.council.has.been.EDINBURGH.AND.SCOTLANDS.pure.nightmare.they.destroy.every.thing.they.touch
86

Ian down under,

Musselburgh 16/04/2009 03:07:51
#80 Arfur and #87 Julian
This is starting to look like a renaissance of common sense and practicality.
Could you do the planning as a job share?
#88 easts_mat if you are from Sydney then you know a bit about a decent public transport system, you even have one ticket to cover all modes. mind you I don't think the Forth lends itself to your kind of ferries but it could be worth a try. The big Sea-cats that go to Manly from Circular Quay could get to Kirkcaldy in less than half an hour from Leith.



87

Hibee Kev,

Corstorphine 16/04/2009 08:36:12
I wondered at the outset of the tram debate how they intended for trams and buses to be running in parallel, and here's the answer, they don't. They're making it up as they go along!
88

eric,

lothian 16/04/2009 09:23:35
its like Glasgow 30 yrs ago.
89

GJS,

27/05/2009 13:25:35
#92 did you mean to post this comment to the Baghdad Evening Telegraph instead?

 

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