Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

 
 
Sunday, 7th September 2008

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the The Scotsman site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Recession threat: Bank of England economist warns drastic action is needed



Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 30 April 2008
BRITAIN could follow America into a full-blown recession unless there is an urgent and aggressive cut in interest rates, a member of the Bank of England's monetary policy committee warned last night.
Economist David Blanchflower gave the ominous warning – including a prediction that house prices could fall by up to a third – after setting out the similarities between the UK and the US economies.

In a speech in Edinburgh, Professor Blanchflower said the UK was following the pattern that had led to recession in America and was set for a substantial decline in growth, a rise in unemployment, little real growth in wages and falling consumption driven by similar declines in house values.

Prof Blanchflower told his audience at the Royal Society of Edinburgh: "More bad news is on the way. I think it is very plausible that falling house prices will lead to a sharp drop in consumer spending.

"Developments in the UK are starting to look eerily similar to those in the United States six months ago.

"There has been no decoupling of the two economies: contagion is in the air. The US sneezed and the UK is rapidly catching a cold." And he said: "The credit crunch is starting to hit and hit hard."

Prof Blanchflower's speech will reinforce his reputation as the most "dove-ish" member of the MPC – he has voted twice for a 50 basis point cut in interest rates this year.

He told his audience that the Bank's recent injection of liquidity into the markets – known as the Special Liquidity Scheme – had been "an important first step forward" in avoiding recession. However, the part-time professor at Stirling university added: "Monetary policy in my view still remains restrictive currently, and we need to take action to loosen policy sooner rather than later.

"I do feel that the slower rates fall, the further they will eventually have to go down to boost the economy."

In a closely argued lecture, Prof Blanchflower set out his view that inflation was not the threat to the economy that many of his fellow MPC members seem to think it is.

The Bank has been set a target by the Chancellor – originally Gordon Brown now Alistair Darling – of keeping annual inflation at 2 per cent.

According to official Bank forecasts, the rate is set to rise above that in the short-term, which has led to some MPC members being more cautious on interest rate cuts for fear of stoking further inflation.

Prof Blanchflower said he was "not too worried about the recently reported increases" in inflation expectations. He told his audience: "I hope that it is clear that this is not me being complacent about inflation; I have been inaccurately referred to as a 'dove'."

He said he had simply not seen evidence of domestically driven medium-term inflationary pressures, particularly in the labour market. If he had seen those pressures, especially on wages he would have voted for increases in interest rates.

However, Prof Blanchflower said evidence from the housing market in particular led him to conclude that this was less of a threat and that a failure to cut more aggressively could lead to something "horrible" happening to the economy.

Part of his evidence included what he saw as "a correction of approximately one third in house prices", in other words a cut of that amount. That "does not seem implausible", he said.

The economist, who also teaches in America, has been consistent in voting for interest rate cuts on the MPC.

Speaking about his MPC role he explained: "Our main priority now is to ensure we conduct monetary policy in such a way that the UK doesn't slip into recession, causing us to significantly undershoot the inflation target. It isn't too late."

UP OR DOWN? THE NINE WHO DECIDE WHAT WE PAY

THE direction of homeowners' monthly mortgage bills largely lies in the hands of nine members of the Bank of England's monetary policy committee (MPC).

Set up by Gordon Brown when he was chancellor, it sets interest rates according to inflation targets handed down by the government.

Members include Mervyn King, governor of the Bank of England, who chairs the committee, the two deputy governors, the bank's chief economist, the executive director for markets and four external members appointed directly by the Chancellor.

American David Blanchflower, left, who joined the committee in 2006, flies in from the US for about 11 days a month at a cost of nearly £80,000 a year.

The MPC is split between "hawks", who tend to push for rate rises, and more cautious "doves".

Q & A: TRIALS AND TRIBULATIONS AT THE BANK OF ENGLAND

Why is David Blanchflower in favour of a further cut in interest rates?

He has argued that the two recent rate-cuts have not been passed on to borrowers because banks are eager to bolster their balance sheets.

He has also expressed fears that the UK could see the same degree of economic slowdown as the United States.

According to the minutes of the monetary policy committee, he had pressed for a half-point cut to 4.75 per cent, instead of the quarter point cut, to 5 per cent, which was agreed by the committee earlier this month.

Was it significant that the monetary policy committee was split?

Yes. The six-strong committee, headed by the Bank of England governor, Mervyn King, was split three ways for the first time in almost two years. The disclosure surprised many analysts, who had been forecasting a unanimous decision.

Why is the interest-rate level so important?

Policymakers are walking a tightrope between balancing the risks to the economy and a mandate to keep inflation pegged at 2 per cent.

Latest figures show Britain's economy is growing below trend, potentially giving the Bank more leeway to cut interest rates. However, some policymakers have insisted some slowing of the economy is necessary to curb inflationary pressures.

Recent signs of consumer resilience are adding pressure on the monetary policy committee to hold fire on aggressive interest-rate cuts.

The Bank is meant to keep the annual inflation rate close to 2 per cent – a target set by the government. But in February it rose to 2.5 per cent, from 2.2 per cent in January.

Where is further pressure on the Bank of England for interest rate cuts coming from?

The British Chambers of Commerce branded the most recent interest-rate cut "long overdue" and demanded another cut next month to 4.75 per cent. However Richard Lambert, director-general of the CBI, recently warned the Bank against risking runaway inflation by making big interest-rate cuts.

What other factors is the Bank wrestling with?

While lower interest rates are aimed at stimulating the economy by making it cheaper to borrow, they can make sterling a less attractive investment compared to other currencies where rates are higher – threatening other parts of the economy.

What other action has the Bank taken?

Earlier this month it launched a £50 billion intervention in the banking system to try to free-up the credit crunch.

It came as mortgage lending fell to a series of historic lows in recent months as high-street banks and building societies tightened their criteria for customers.


The full article contains 1223 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 30 April 2008 7:57 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Economic indicators
 
1

Angus Ogg,

29/04/2008 22:57:27
Is it "Quote-A-Professor" season at the Scotsman or what?

"Prof Blanchflower said evidence from the housing market in particular led him to conclude that this was less of a threat and that a failure to cut more aggressively could lead to something "horrible" happening to the economy."

Come on Prof., something "horrible" is when you visit the Proctocologist.

What exactly is your definition of something "horrible" ?

You are being a little vague, or at least the story is?
2

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 00:13:45

Something "horrible" happening to the economy."

'AYE' Its called,,'Realism'!
3

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 30/04/2008 00:14:04
The following is accurately researched and two hours long, in three parts.

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
4

Evolution in action,

St andrews 30/04/2008 00:18:15
Right on the money Mr Blanchflower. Did you also mention declining North Sea oil output (although temporalily compensated for by higher prices), the deindustrialization of Scotland, financial house layoffs surely weeks away, prohibitive taxation and a goverment whose stimulation plan is Trump, trams, drams and stick your head in the sands.

A 30% drop in house prices is about right, dont worry it will crawl back to todays prices by 2015.
5

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 00:31:46
#4,

:)...:-DD

Brilliant comment!...'Trump,,Trump'!
6

Senga Jean,

30/04/2008 02:02:04
#4 Slick,sleazy innuendo. Are you a Labour Party spin doctor. As for the article...DO NOT PANIC...DO NOT PANIC. The reality is the world will return to fiscal probity once the current "leaders" of the Western world are replaced by sane leaders.
7

,

30/04/2008 03:02:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
8

Royster,

30/04/2008 03:22:18
The market went up for 10 years. It will now go down for at least 5. At least, unlike Ireland, we have an independent central bank which can set interest rates according to economic conditions in the UK. Ireland is going to get hammered as interest rates will be soon be too high for its economy after having been too low for too long.
9

W Smith,

Middle East 30/04/2008 04:58:15
#7
Yup - life under 'warmonger' Bush isn't so bad then?

The folks in Alaska will get the annual oil revenue cheque PLUS Bush's tax rebate cheque.

Considering Scotland is full of goody two shoes socialists politicians who claim to believe in the 'fair distribution of wealth' how come I have yet to recieve ONE friggin' cheque never mind an annual cheque?

SHOW ME THE MONEY YOU COMMIE B@#$%#$S!

BTW
Leftie Moira Salmond should be okay during a recession.

As a retired senior civil servant her monthly pension will be more than the monthly salaries paid to some Scots reading this comment.

Fair distribution of wealth my a#$e!
10

Pender Paul,

Pender Island 30/04/2008 06:14:25
Why cut the interest rates? Why not put strict profit controls in place? Why should sleazy capitalists always have their collective bottom lines protected by the public purse?
11

Nebulous,

Aberdeen 30/04/2008 06:49:33
Recession and a drop in house prices is coming - whether the Professor likes it or not. Without intervention it will be quick and nasty. Attempts at intervening, like oh - drops in interest rates or injecting liquidity will simply drag it out over years and years.

The 125% mortgages and people driving around in the equity "released" from their houses, while the cash needed to buy a house increases as a multiple of earnings simply had to stop.
12

FedUpTaxPayer,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 07:11:13
I'm confused - "no return to boom and bust" promised our splendid previous chancellor, Mr Brown. How can there possibly be a recession?

Oh, yes, I now remember, he is completely useless, and Labour wouldn't know economic competence if it hit them.

Looks like we'll all be paying the price, again, of the country having voted in the socialists.
13

John S,

30/04/2008 07:32:55
#10 W Smith,- Cabinet funds — Tony Blair and his Cabinet colleagues will enjoy retirement on final salary pension packages worth £25 million
The Cabinet pension pot will fund annual payouts of more than £50,000 for senior ministers, with the Prime Minister set to receive £123,000 a year
At present Gordon Brown can expect a pension of at least £53,000 a year, which would more than double if he becomes Prime Minister.Times - April 2, 2007
Gordon Brown on the day he became PM his expected pension more than doubled.

An MP with 20 years' service can expect to receive around £30,000 a year in today's prices after they retire. The MPs themselves make a contribution of 9.5%. -Jan 2008
These are final salary - fully indexed pensions.
14

donald,

glasgow 30/04/2008 07:33:38
Alaska, like all the State legislators, has more power than Holyrood has.
15

,

30/04/2008 07:44:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
16

conservative,

Fife 30/04/2008 07:44:53
The only people who will suffer if house prices fall are speculators (and builders of course who are coining it just now). Your house is still the same to you no matter what other people think it's worth. House prices are simply unsustainably high just now - first time buyers have no hope - of course they will fall. Only a matter of time.
17

,

30/04/2008 07:50:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
18

Unimpressed one,

30/04/2008 08:11:15
"The Bank has been set a target by the Chancellor – originally Gordon Brown now Alistair Darling – of keeping annual inflation at 2 per cent."

Well he's taken his eye off the ball in recent months. With oil prices, power and now food going through the roof, seems like he's trapped between a rock and a hard place. Interest rates need to come down to 1% or less, but in the current climate even that's unlikely to help. Like the US, we have depended on a raft of cheap credit to finance our economy. Welcome to the world of stagflation.
19

Scotish Exile,

30/04/2008 08:13:09
tighten your belts people, its going to be a bumpy ride!
How come things have turned around so quickly, are these not the same financial institutions only a short time ago that were posting huge profits and giving their staff massive bonuses....so what has happened...fraud, deceipt, incompetence, greed, a mixture of them all??
20

carrottop,

Dumfries 30/04/2008 08:16:22
With the wages paid in this area I am surprised to see all the kids at my daughters school wearing shoes. The problems are far more deep rooted than house prices. Nobody in politics seem much inclined to plan for the future, eg worthwhile jobs for school leavers, a planned business to population ratio, transport (how can we ditch cars without good public service?), farming (surely better to pay compensation and overproduce than risk shortages), fishing (why our boats tied up to allow others in?), rail (still stuck to two rails system when others are progressing to overhead, single rail, magnetic etc) a land full of coal and nobody being seen to work on ways to use this natural resource that would employ tens of thousands if a clean use could be found.
The list goes on and on, our problem is unimaginative and forward looking politics. Get the publicity, get the vote, get the money, then get out seems the norm.
21

11+failed,

the pans 30/04/2008 08:34:09
I wonder what Mr Blanchflower thinks a reduction in interest rates will achieve? We have had 3 rate reductions and mortgage costs have increased. Are people going to invest funds in building societies and banks when the return is already less than real inflation, if rates are further reduced? A reduction in rates will just mean that money is better spent stockpiling food and goods resulting in even more inflation. In simplistic terms the after tax yield on a building society investment for the past year has been about 3% while an investment in rice would have been 75%.
22

11+failed,

the pans 30/04/2008 08:46:06
Surprised Mr Blanchflower should say such things in Edinburgh where house prices only go up and are immune to any national or international events! Only kidding - We currently have 8,840 properties for sale or to let. Up 350 from last week.
23

danielrober,

30/04/2008 08:51:32
I don't think a resession is on the way. More a case of slower growth in housing as prices return to a more sensible price. Though many sellers have priced themselves out of the market. How is a young couple with kids going to afford a £350,000 mortage. It's silly.

In a year or two the market will re-adjust. People taking out credit is relativly low in my generation. After all our parents and friends parents all had credit cards, so we know the reality of credit - you have to pay it back.

AS usual a few mega-borrowers will have to change habits, but most of us will not need to. Cheaper housing could actually benefit the economy with new families buying houses and all the goods that go in them. This is a re-adjustment, not a resession.
24

interstellarmince,

outer-space 30/04/2008 08:54:24
More financial clap-trap...
25

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 30/04/2008 09:23:27
Rip off prices in the stores are gonna affect consumer spending. Disgustingly high utility bills are gonna affect consumer spending. Lower than inflation wage rises are gonna affect consumer spending.Ridiculous levels of taxation by our own governments are gonna affect consumer spending. a butterfly farting in the congo is gonna affect consumer spending.
26

pwd,

Hawick 30/04/2008 09:29:16
*20 Unimpressed one

"Welcome to the world of stagflation."

Yes, you're right and the last time it took higher interest rates (amongst other things) and Margaret Thatcher to get us out of it. Where is the next Thatcher?
27

Liz,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 09:33:45
He may be an economic "expert" but he seems to be a bit too readily dismissive of the inflation we currently have here in the UK. The official Government figure of 2.5% is a lie (how many things have risen "above the rate of inflation" and interest rates have to rise to stop the Pound becoming even more devalued.

Mr Blanchflower also seems to be forgetting the millions of people in the country for whom interest rates going up would be a good thing and the millions who would also benefit from more realistic houseprices that will result when prices fall further.

And I also take issue with this:
"American David Blanchflower, left, who joined the committee in 2006, flies in from the US for about 11 days a month at a cost of nearly £80,000 a year. "
So he spends 11 days a month here at a cost to us of £960,000 a year - what idiot is responsible for this.

I could sit on that rate setting commitee and probably have a more constructive input. My travel expenses a sandwich and a cup of tea would be enough compensation.
28

Liz,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 09:34:49
#29

Ah, sorry, I miss read the figures - my querying of the costs is unfounded. Ooops!
29

Citylocal Fife,

Citylocal Fife News 30/04/2008 09:37:23
Much of this is pointless, *real* inflation is much, much higher than Gordon Brown's various inventions, which seem to have been worked out on a calculator supplied by Del Trotter.

The 'market' will re-adjust, and Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling et al, have very little control over it!
30

brownlie,

30/04/2008 09:44:12
10 W. Smith

Even for some-one whose postings are noted for crassness, stupidity and irrelevance, you have really excelled yourself here.

What on earth has Moira Salmond got to do with this article and what do you base your attempted "leftie" smear on?

Mrs Salmond is sensible, intelligent and dignified and these are attributes that you will never be accused of possessing.
31

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 30/04/2008 10:03:54
Anyone who believes that 'inflation is currently running at 2.5%" is seriously out of touch with reality. The thieves and criminals who masquerade as politicians and 'government' in the UK are simply -thieves and criminals.
Ditto the banks. Ditto the lawyers. Ditto the oil companies. The idea that any of these people has 'the national interest' at heart is just a myth. They are only in the game for as much money as they can cram into their suitcases on the way to the airport.

32

Angus Ogg,

30/04/2008 10:08:57
#7,

Morning Jammy Dodger.

You are very lucky being on holiday. Wish we were there too.

I think it is a custom with precedent that whoever is the President, avoids saying the "R" word as if his (or her) Presidency depends on it. The reason being that his (or her) Presidency may in fact depend on it, such is the importance of the economy to voters in and of America.

JD, if you bump into the Galactic Cannibal when you're over there, don't accept any cigarettes off of him. Especially if they are big fat cigarettes wrapped in Rizzlas :@)
33

Nellie,

Liverpool 30/04/2008 10:10:22
#10 You forget that all Scots (also read English, Welsh and Northern Irish) are
EQUAL!
Some some are more equal that others.
(With apologies to George Orwell.)
34

Jimmy the Pie,

30/04/2008 10:12:58
#32 Brownlie

Good post. I was wondering what the buffoon @ #10 was rambling on about. Tax cheques??? Why would someone in the Middle East get a cheque - unless of course your really living in Easterhoose or Wester Hailes?
Yes W Smith is a typical Unionist plant on the postings. I wonder when the penny will finally drop that all these tossers are wasting their time??
Hopefully Independence Day
35

Alan B,

30/04/2008 10:15:45
#29 liz "He may be an economic "expert" but he seems to be a bit too readily dismissive of the inflation we currently have here in the UK."

Completely disagree. Inflation always reduces when there is an economic slowdown. There will be/is an economic slowdown so inflation will come down.

Lower interest rates (not saying what the right level is) will just try to make sure that it is a managed slow down and not a recession.


36

Nellie,

Liverpool 30/04/2008 10:22:57
#28 I don't recall Thatcher dissuaded anyone from using credit. Indeed, it was during her period in office that there as a boom in credit products, especially the most expensive type of them all - credit cards.
We were encouraged to use credit, to cement our feet into the foundations of home-ownership, and she complimented this with union-crippling laws, making sure workers would not be able to afford to strike against unscrupulous business leaders/owners.
In doing these things she helped break up the "society", which she claimed never existed in the first place, collapsing it into the heap of self-centred, selfish and non-co-operative islands of individuals it is now.
37

Tolle1,

30/04/2008 10:23:50
Agree with comment 11. I do not think many or any of the people responsible for the future repossession of houses, rising unemployment, pension funds evaporating, evictions from council/social houses (yes these types of houses still just exists) will be losing any sleep though.

While out in the Bahamas or wherever they are their minds, in between sunbathing and cocktails will be focused on calculating when enough businesses have had to close and the share prices have fallen far enough to start buying these derelict properties and offering new flexible investment products for the benefit of the consumer (which once again will take the shirts of the consumers backs).
38

Alan B,

30/04/2008 10:40:30
#38 Nellie

It is all relative. Under Brown we have has an unprecedented rise in debt, both public sector and private. Thatcher for her sins believe in a relatively balanced bubget and would never have supported the massive public sector deficits that labour have chosen to burden the country with.

There is nothing wrong with mortgages or home ownership. It the amount of debt and house price inflation that labour have allowed.

As for "union-crippling laws". Do u mean union leaders actually having to ask the workers if they wanted to strike. Yes we should have union leaders ignoring their members wishes, running political campaigns rahter than supporting their members (remember scargill started was it a communist or something close to it socialist party, not exactly mainstream opinion) and then encourage them to abuse the so called scabs. It was really anti union to allow members to vote on strike action. And as for secondardy picketing. Great idea picket a company that is not involved in a strike to damage their business too, where there workers want to carry on working. And if they do not support those in an unrelated dispute, well why not abuse them too.

39

ccc,

30/04/2008 10:46:24
I think all these people know exactly what is coming. A bad recession (At least) and falling house prices of at least 30%.

But they have to be SEEN to be doing SOMETHING. If they just sat around and said 'Well there is nothing we can do, let's all just grin and bare it' then everyone would wonder why they have a job in the first place.

I think they are just making themselves look 'busy' trying to 'stop' this from happening. In reality I think they all know it will happen and are just going to ride it out with the rest of us. They also surely know that some good will come out of the situation in the end. Realistic debt levels and houses that normal people can afford. Silver lining to every cloud and all.....
40

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 11:07:27
Bank of England is taking in £35 billion of mortgage paper in exchange for bonds to help the banks.
If this was all due to losses on the US sub prime housing market then they must have lost out on say something like a 350,000 US houses at £100,000 per house. If this calculation is correct then our banks must have taken on enough dodgy mortgages to fill a reasonable sized city.
Can we really trust the bankers ?
41

interstellarmince,

outer-space 30/04/2008 11:28:12
Alan B - " Inflation always reduces when there is an economic slowdown. There will be/is an economic slowdown so inflation will come down.

Lower interest rates (not saying what the right level is) will just try to make sure that it is a managed slow down and not a recession".

The scary thing is you actually believe this drivel...

The fakey-created-out-of-nothing-money from the private banking cartel scam continues...
42

interstellarmince,

outer-space 30/04/2008 11:31:07
Where is the story about the vast Labour corruption and fraud unfolding in Aberdeen?
43

Alan B,

30/04/2008 11:56:37
#interstellarmince

If u are saying that slower economic growth does not lead to lower inflation give me some evidence of this in an open economy.(over a period of time).

When governments try to tackly inflation within an economy they raise interest rates to slow the economy down. That inturn lowers inflation.

Inflation in the uk over the last decade or so has been higher in the service sector that the comsumer good sector due to buying from goods from low cost countries. this has helped keep inflation figures lower than would otherwise have been. eg clothes.

The current inflationary pressures are due to oil over $100 a barrel and food prices (poor harvests, biofuels) etc. it is also becuase of the hugh growth from china and india etc. that obviously takes much oil and increases demand for food and other stuff.


44

Doh,

30/04/2008 12:14:16


Meanwhile the world shortage of econimists continues.

The government has announced relaxed immigration visas for visiting professors from Eastern to Europe to ease this acute crisis.

45

Abel Magwitch,

30/04/2008 12:33:50
Apropos the previous post, there is an old story from Russia in the days when it was the USSR. The May Day parade in Moscow featured all the usual tanks, missiles, etc. Right at the back end of the parade there was a small group of men in business suits, carrying briefcases. Someone in the crowd asked, "who are those people?" The answer came, "they are the economists; they can do more damage than all the tanks and missiles put together."
46

Lock,

30/04/2008 12:46:01
#45 Alan B,

You seem a little confused.

Demand increases in China and India plus supply problems with oil and food (for example) will continue to put pressure on prices. A slowing UK economy will not neccessarily cause rising prices to slow down.
47

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

30/04/2008 13:03:25
Is it just me but the biggest danger is that we may talk our way into a recession?

The more that we talk about it happening the more pessimistic people become - spending is reduced and so a vicious circle begins.

Moreover, the way some of these things are being reported you would think that we were heading for some sort of depression like the 20s/30s - I don't honestly believe we are. For example, it is reported that housing prices nationally have fallen for the last 6 months in a row. What is not reported is that this is not uniform across the country with much of Scotland still enjoying rising house prices. Moreover, one would think we were talking about a huge drop in average house prices - we are not - the aggregate fall is less than 1%. I'd be genuinely worried if we were talking about double figure percentage drops. The one-third figure quoted by the professor seems to me to be pessimistic in the extreme.

The economy is still growing, though less slowly than predicted. This has affected most those whose income had no leeway to cope with even a slight change in expenditure. In some cases this is self-inflicted - and to be blunt I have no sympathy whatsover for thsoe who have over-stretched themselves in a pursuit to keep up with the Joneses. Those I do have time for are those who genuinely find it tough to make ends meet, not just now, but for most of their lives. Pensioners and the low-paid in particular could do with some sort of assistance to cope during this rocky period. That's why the abolition of the 10p rate has been rasied at this time - a raising of personal allowances to remove the poorest earners from the tax system would be one way of helping the situation. Cushioning the effect of rising fuel prices for pensioners is another thing that could be done.

As to the actual economy itself - I do believe the right thing to do is to bring stability to the banking system. The proposal to issue bonds for mortgage debts is an action in
48

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

30/04/2008 13:03:51
(continued)

Perhaps the best thing the government could do apart from practical measures is to be honest about the state of the economy - I feel that as the press have talked down our economy our government has talked it up too much (though not its advisers!!).
49

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

30/04/2008 13:12:02
#49 Should have ended:

"As to the actual economy itself - I do believe the right thing to do is to bring stability to the banking system. The proposal to issue bonds for mortgage debts is an action in this area that I welcome."

50

RSF1,

Scotland 30/04/2008 13:14:40
The government seems to fail to realise that they already have the tools in place to keep the economy on the up and stable, avoiding any possible threat of 'recession'.

When the first interest cut failed to get the banks to follow they should have kick started the market by using their own high street bank. Use Northern Rock to offer competitive products; rather than pricing it out of the marketplace, not 2 year fixed but longer 5 and 10 year options. Provide savings accounts with attractive interest rates to offset the mortgages rather than lending $50bn to the banks. The other institutions would soon folow suit and offer competitive products.

But where do people get money to save I hear you ask? Simple - reduce fuel duty - as the price at the pump rises the amount the government recieves in income rises. At present I believe it's about 70p for every ltr. Reduce this so it's at 50p per ltr and suddenly the motorist has £10 extra in their pocket everytime they fill up.

But this has a spiralling action also. Industry transport costs reduce so rather than food prices going up they should stabalise or even start to fall back to late '07 prices.

But be prepared - we can't have everything so expect some cut backs in services with the loss of income from fuel duty and vat, but surely this is better than that word beginning with 'r'....????!!!
51

Alan B,

30/04/2008 13:40:11
#48 Lock

You seem to have misunderstood what i said.

"Demand increases in China and India plus supply problems with oil and food (for example) will continue to put pressure on prices. "

That is what i said.

"A slowing UK economy will not neccessarily cause rising prices to slow down."

A slowing uk economy will put pressure on prices. It will not effect oil (energy) prices but it will have an effect on others. Most likely through pressure on profit margins. House price inflation is already slowing drastically. If people have less money to spend then that will mean less purchases and therefore put pressure on retail prices.

What i was saying is that the uk has had low consumer inflation has masked higher service side inflation. inflationary pressures here are domestically generated. This area is where inflation will slow down.
52

Fairfax,

30/04/2008 13:40:21
RSF1 (53): "they should have kick started the market by using their own high street bank. Use Northern Rock to offer competitive products"

Firstly, this would be illegal under EU law. Secondly, it's a bad idea: the reason for making NR's products uncompetitive is to prompt its existing borrowers to move mortgage, so paying back the Treasury. If NR provided further mortgage deals, then the taxpayer would be taking on yet more risk to prolong our inflated housing market. It's good that mortgages are harder to obtain: prices will then fall to more acceptable levels.

"The other institutions would soon folow suit and offer competitive products."

But where would they obtain money to lend? The wholesale credit market has dried up and depositor-funded loans cannot be expanded easily.
53

Alan B,

30/04/2008 13:42:37
#Federalist

I agree with what u are saying.

There are 2 things.
1)how to react to the crisis and manage that
2)how to improve the underlying economy. the public and private sector debt levels. the silly house prices.
54

Fairfax,

30/04/2008 14:00:18
Abel Magwitch (47): "The answer came, "they are the economists; they can do more damage than all the tanks and missiles put together.""

That's certainly true of socialist economists. Imagine the damage that might be achieved by a socialist economist as, say, first minister . . .
55

RSF1,

30/04/2008 14:03:07
Fair Fax (55)

How is being competitive illegal?
Secondly the BoE has just bailed the banks out with $50bn secured mainly against property, so I fail to see the difference as this is still tax payers money.
I've no problem with mortgages being harder to obtain but there needs to be a choice for the consumer and with mortgages being harder to obtain do you really think NR's exposure to mortgages is falling that quickly (I think not).

As for obtaining funds - read the second part of my post - the government needs to stimulate this and can easily take a smaller fuel duty thus putting money back in people's and industry's pockets.

Everyone has different views and there are no doubt many ways to kick start the economy, these are just mine, but in general people, especially the media, need to stop talking us into a recession.........
56

ccc,

30/04/2008 14:12:15
'Talking us into a recession'....

Never heard such nonsense in my life. When were you when we were 'Talking ourself into a boom'......

There are a lot of very complex arguments about what has happened, and what will happen. I will however make it very simple for people to understand. Read the following over and over again:

Boom...Bust....Boom....Bust...Boom...Bust....Boom....Bust....Boom...Bust....Boom....Bust....Boom...Bust....Boom....Bust....Boom...Bust....Boom....Bust....Boom...Bust....Boom....Bust....Boom...Bust....Boom....Bust....Boom...Bust....Boom....Bust....Boom...Bust....Boom....Bust....Boom...Bust....Boom....Bust

You get it yet ? Unless the cycle of "boom..bust" is going to magically end in 2008......There is no reason to think we are heading for anything other than a huge bust.

It really is very simple. Why do so many people have such diffuculty in understanding this ? It is a concept that has been proven a million times over.

Not rocket science....
57

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 30/04/2008 14:37:40
I'm sure we can rely on Macavity Brown to do the wrong thing.
58

MoragtheToerag,

Argyll 30/04/2008 14:40:00
America does NOT have a 'full blown recession'.

Some regions are doing very well.

This is a myth spun by the British media to keep their own house of cards standing and blame other people for their own banks' and borrowers' irresponsibility and greed.

59

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

30/04/2008 14:41:27
#59 The economy is primarily influenced by people's attitudes and behaviour. To imply that people's attitudes and behaviour is not influenced by the media is dishonest to say the least.

Of course people are going to be pessimistic if the media just talks pessimistically about the economy (and vice versa). What's different this time is the speed that "news" can spread - sometimes "news" that turns out not to be actually true - just witness the malicious rumours spread by speculators about HBOS.

Most commentary is based on pure speculation - I'd prefer us to deal with facts - and the facts indicate that we are heading for an economic slow-down not a full-blown recession.
60

MoragtheToerag,

30/04/2008 14:42:54
No need for us to tighten our belts.

We don't have any mortgage, but no debts, either.

We'll be as hand to moutch as ever no matter what the rest of the economy is doing.
61

ccc,

30/04/2008 15:01:18
#62

"sometimes "news" that turns out not to be actually true - just witness the malicious rumours spread by speculators about HBOS."

Would this be the same HBOS that has just announced it is going begging to its shareholders ? Due to the fact it has no capital and is on shaky ground ?

Wake up to reality please. Easy communication helped get us into this huge bubble in the first place. It will do exactly the same in the opposite direction.

Can't have your cake and eat it. :)
62

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

30/04/2008 15:17:27
#64 I'm not trying to have my cake and eat it - I did say:

" Of course people are going to be pessimistic if the media just talks pessimistically about the economy (and vice versa)."

Or do you not understand the English language?
63

ccc,

30/04/2008 15:31:31
All we have heard is positive stories about the UK economy and house prices (Up until last Sep anyway).

This was complete nonsense. It was clear to anyone with a bit of sense this was nonsense. I am quite happy for them to go on a 'Pessimistic' offensive for the next few years. The population has been brainwashed into thinking 'Britain is different. everything will be just fine here'.

That lie has been sown over many years. It may take a period of extreme pessimistic reporting to get over it. I welcome that. About time. Let's talk ourselves into a recession. We need one. Long overdue.
64

pwd,

Hawick 30/04/2008 16:00:38
*38
But she broke the stagflation bug.
65

westview,

up the creek 30/04/2008 16:34:07
There are too many mouths to feed south of the border when their pack of cards ,( ie flimsy financial gambling0, economy flounders. Cut the chains linking us to them before they drag us down ,down, down. Luckily, Scotland ,Ireland and Wales are not over populated.
66

SouthernGent,

30/04/2008 16:49:52
Chicken Little is at it again.

"BRITAIN could follow America into a full-blown recession "

This type of comment is what starts the snowball down the hill. First - America has to be in a recession for anybody to follow it. Second - the US economy has posted growth for the last 2 quarters - including this weeks posting of 0.6 percent. Third - the definition of a recession is 2 consecutive quarters of NEGATVE growth. Since the US hasn't even had 1 yet, where in the world do these guys get the kahunas to post this kind of crap. The sky hasn't even begun to fall.

As mentioned above, the media is not being resonsible when reporting on the global economy, and the lemmings of the world are darting about. When the media says its ok to spend - they will. When the media says the opposite - they don't.

As for boom, bust, boom, bust, there are many degrees of boom and bust. Yes the market needs to correct, but that doesn't mean it has to go all the way back to the starting point. I have never seen a graph reflecting equal proportions of rise and fall. If there was, I would be a very rich man.

Negative attitudes tend to lead to self fulfilling prophecies.
67

Kingston,

Singapore 30/04/2008 17:12:27
Why has it taken the Bank of England so long to raise the red flag!

Keep interest rates steady, if there are weaknesses in the system then let it crash rather than supporting a flawed system created by certain bankers and associated others.


68

Booster,

30/04/2008 17:15:32
#69 "Negative attitudes tend to lead to self fulfilling prophecies"

Sometimes, maybe.
More often that phrase is used as an excuse when the inevitable hits the fan.

This summer is going to be a wretched period for consumers in the US especially.
So far they have been protected from the true cost of the rise in petrol and food (especially grain based) prices but that can't last. 30%+ increases all round in those will see the pips squeak.

Then you and similar minded others can no doubt turn round and say - "see we told you that would happen if you talked about it".

Wise up, you cannot wish away that which Bush and his Fed cohorts have brought upon you.
69

Trade-wind,

USA 30/04/2008 17:56:11
Well I can see the idiot Bush haters are still fumbling
their way around the computer. But they are not as crazy as number 19. He wants to bring back the 70's.
You don't remember the 70's very well. In the states we had double digit inflation. Interest rates hitting 21%.
Jimmy Carter in control and stuck at his desk in the White House wringing his hands over hostages in Iran.
Get you head out of your posterior. The 70's were a disaster.
70

danielrober,

30/04/2008 18:18:18
# ccc

Cheer up. Just because you get wet, its not a sign that you'll drop from a fever. Less ups and down, not no ups and downs. A smoother economy. This is the normal not the boom/busts experienced in the past.
71

SouthernGent,

30/04/2008 18:39:10
#71

Your post is nothing more than pure speculation. You nor I have the capacity to predict what will happen in the future.

Now, using historical data, this is the best time to buy. And guess what - the ones with the money and foresight are, and they will probably do quite well. Buy low, sell high is still true today. The lemmings of the world will sit on their hands and watch the news and scare themselves into poverty. The doers of the world are sizing up the potential deals and buying. That is what makes them doers vs lemmings. History tells us that the market will go up and down, but the wise ones don't buy at the top, they sell. Once the lemmings catch on and start selling, then its too late. And usually it creates a new bottom for the others to buy. Its all a big cycle. Conspiracy theorists will tell you (maybe with some truth) that the buyers create false commodities by buying in mass in hopes that the lemmings will follow. When they do its time to sell, and once again the lemmings are left holding the bag. Your average citizen follows the crowd, which is usually 2-3 steps behind.

If you are a doer, and I have seen many in the US lately, now is the time to buy in the US. The dollar is weak, but it more than likely will not stay that way. So those in the UK (and many other countries) have the potential to cash in. Prices here are falling and the dollar is weak which basically equates to an additional 50% discount for those in the UK when buying over here. When the dollar was strong, I bought goods from overseas and shipped them back at huge discounts. If I'm in the UK now, my money would be going to the US. Buy a cheap house/land in a good area and sit on it. The cycle will reverse, no risk - no reward. Buy low - sell high.
72

Bennie,

30/04/2008 18:59:58
What recession? I have been trying get my hands on a container to ship stuff of here for about two weeks.
US manufacturing is BUSY, people are being hired everywhere - the value of dollar is making our goods very attractive.
Talk to ANY shipping company here in the US and they will tell you US exports are breaking all records and it is so tough now that we can't even find containers in a reasonable time frame to get the goods out to places like India, China and Europe.
There will be one more rate cut and then I think the dollar will creep up in value - unfortunately.
Life is good that is unless you are a Democrat because no matter how you crunch the numbers the economy is withstanding everything that OPEC can throw at it.
We have weathered the storm now the rest of you US bashers better look out. We know who our friends are....
73

georgia,

outside Chicago 30/04/2008 19:33:44
Dubya still has not admitted we are in a recession....

Georgie thinks - Ooo, if I say it, then it will become true, but if I don't...the same stupid people who voted for me will not know it's here....

George W. Bush should surrender his C-average Harvard MBA degree in shame. What did we get an MBA in the White House for if, in his own words, "I don't know much about economics." OOPS!

And if anyone wants to say I am a Bush-basher, let them. The man's own words speak for themselves - it's clear he is constantly and totally in a rich man's fog. When asked if he knew gas prices had gone beyond $3.50 a gallon, he said, "I wasn't told that..." His lackies tell him what he wants to hear and then he goes out and forms half-**ed remarks (mostly grinning, like a clueless chimp).
74

John Blackley,

Florida 30/04/2008 19:35:07
#75 Bennie, "people are being hired everywhere"

True - but in many states, many more people are being laid off than are being hired. (Texas and Florida being two examples).

The value of the dollar is part of what is grinding down the US economy - as oil is priced in dollars and the devalued dollar is helping increase oil prices (people wanting more dollars for their barrel of oil to compensate for the loss of value of the dollar).

I admire your optimism and encourage more to emulate it but please do try to stay withing the bounds of believability.
75

Awake,

North Lanarksh!te 30/04/2008 19:38:57
Q. Whats the difference between boom and bust?

A. Money supply.

Q. Who controls the amount of money in circulation?

A. The private banking cartel.
76

SouthernGent,

30/04/2008 19:46:42
#76 Georgia

Maybe he hasn't admitted it because we AREN'T in a recession. We still may end up in one, but for now we are NOT. Please do your homework instead of believeing everything you see/hear on the news.

There are always 2 ways to look at something. The value of the dollar has increased prices on certain commodities, but it has also helped the trade imbalance. Because of the weak dollar, our exports have increased and will continue to do so. While we have job losses in some sectors, we have increases in others. It is a constant, jobs will always move. Its people that become inflexible. Nobody cross trains anymore, and people suffer because of it.
77

Bennie,

30/04/2008 19:52:18
76
The economy has slowed and has bumped along the bottom for a while - no doubt. The economy is picking up - it's not fabulous but I am seeing better than modest growth. My sales and orders agreeing with that and have been consistent for the last 12 weeks.
There are still more jobs than people to fill them. Skilled and well educated staff can find good jobs
There is no recession, that is true - by all definitions we are no where near a recession.
I REMEMBER RECESSION - this is not it , not even close.
The Democrats can't stand this and are making all the noises they can to get what it is basically a Marxist candidate into the White House.
I can't say it will never happen but it sure will be the death of the Democrat Party in the US if it does.
Read the proposals. The end of 1099's and the re-growth of unions and the the redistributed wealth that it brings. Not good for ANY capitalist country.
NOW THAT WOULD BRING RECESSION.
78

georgia,

outside Chicago 30/04/2008 20:26:21
Excuse me, y'all, but I have done my homework, and my "homework" (reviewing past bills, budget, etc.) tells me my $50,00 a year paycheck is not enought to support a single woman in this economy. I buy the energy-efficient light bulbs - I don't go gallivanting through the countryside in a V8 or V10 (my little van is a 4-cylinder) - I don't spend extravagantly on unneccessary purchases - but like so many others, I am still clearing only a couple of hundred dollars a month after bills. Thank God I have medical/dental/ vision insurance through my employer, and the cost is not very much, but heaven help me when I retire in the next few years....I am much more typical than you two #77 and #78 can admit....

As for savings, well, I raised two sons alone, so that pretty much took my "wealth" during their growing-up years...I am 60, so I have seen recessions/dips in the market/gas lines before, and this, my friends, IS a recession. When someone making over $23 an hour with only moderate expenses is strapped for cash, there is no way I can help the economy by spending enough to make a difference....And there are many more of me than there are the other kind of person who is not feeling the pinch....
79

Fairfax,

30/04/2008 20:42:46
RSF1 (58): "How is being competitive illegal?"

The EU has strict laws preventing members from using nationalised corporations competing with non-nationalised corporations.

"Secondly the BoE has just bailed the banks out with $50bn secured mainly against property, so I fail to see the difference as this is still tax payers money."

The key difference is that the banks have to pay a substantial premium to use the facility -- they're paying to swap mortgage debt for bonds. If it came at no cost (i.e. it really was a bail-out), then it would almost certainly be illegal.

"As for obtaining funds - read the second part of my post - the government needs to stimulate this and can easily take a smaller fuel duty"

The key point is that the banks cannot obtain more money themselves. If the government funds this, no matter how it's paid for, then it might lead to yet more silly mortgage expansion. The £50 billion swap facility is not there to fund new mortgages, but to prevent problems refinancing existing mortgages (the banks lend long and borrow short: they have to regularly refinance their loans, formerly provided by the wholesale market). Still, I agree that we should cut fuel duty in any case.
80

SouthernGent,

30/04/2008 20:55:56
#81 Georgia

No disrespect intended, but there is no recession. When conversing in text, it becomes a matter of semantics. Your personal definition of recession does not count.

Is inflation up - yes.
Are there job losses - yes.
Is the GDP down - yes.

Is the GDP negative - NO.
Is there a recession - NO (not yet anyway)

81

Booster,

30/04/2008 21:14:44
#74

"Your post is nothing more than pure speculation. You nor I have the capacity to predict what will happen in the future.

Now, using historical data..." HaHaHa!
82