Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

 
 
Saturday, 22nd November 2008

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the The Scotsman site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

New World Order: Global co-operation, nationalisation and state intervention - all in one day



View Video
Download Video

Video

Market analyst Richard Hunter talks about the volatility of the FTSE
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 09 October 2008
IT WAS a day of desperate global action, unprecedented in both scale and cost, intended to stymie the international devastation being wrought by the financial crisis.

As the London stock market steeled itself to open again following days of vicious battering, Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, rose to stake the future of the country and the Cabinet on an audacious £500 billion banking bail-out.

And barely had the City begun to digest the hugely complex and unorthodox scheme when it was sent reeling again by an unscheduled interest rate cut – mirrored across the world – by the Monetary Policy Committee. It was the first such co-ordinated approach since the 9/11 terrorist attacks in 2001 – yet another indicator, had one been needed, of the gravity of the situation.

The half percentage point drop was immediately passed on to millions of borrowers, with leading high-street banks cutting their mortgages.

The government's scheme, a three-part plan which takes in short, medium and long-term measures, was welcomed by business leaders and analysts.

David Kern, adviser to the British Chamber of Commerce, said: "The government has taken a radical step, but it is one we welcome."

But there was concern a phenomenal amount of taxpayers' cash was being staked on a last-ditch measure that could fail. The Taxpayers' Alliance accused ministers of failing to address other options first.

Meanwhile, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) issued a fresh warning that Britain was on the brink of recession.

In its latest World Economic Outlook, it predicted the UK economy would contract by 0.1 per cent next year as growth across the developed countries slowed to almost zero.

The downturn will mean lost jobs, with unemployment forecast to rise from 5.4 per cent to 6 per cent, while public finances were said to be "considerably weaker" than in previous slowdowns. However, the IMF said it was expecting Britain to bounce back strongly in 2010.

The £500 billion plan includes the government taking shares of up to £50 billion in leading banks, increasing funds available to banks to £200 billion, and guaranteeing their debts when they lend to one another. The guarantees are likely to cost up to £250 billion.

The Prime Minister called the plans "bold and far-reaching", but admitted they would offer no quick fix.

Eight UK banks and building societies – including Royal Bank of Scotland, Halifax Bank of Scotland, Barclays, Lloyds TSB and Nationwide – have pledged to increase their capital by £25 billion but the government will pump in the funds if called upon. The Treasury also stands ready to make at least another £25 billion available, if necessary.

The Bank of England – alongside its interest rate cut – is taking emergency action to help ensure banks have enough cash to run their day-to-day activities. It has increased to £200 billion the size of its special liquidity scheme that lets banks swap risky assets for Treasury bonds.

The government is also making the further £250 billion available for banks to guarantee debt, but a fee will be charged.

Mr Brown moved to reassure taxpayers they would have the potential to "earn a proper return" from their investment. There would be "strings attached and conditions to be met" to protect taxpayer interests.

One key concern is whether there will be controls over the bonuses of the "fat cat" bank bosses. Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, said such issues would be dealt with case by case. Remuneration should be "based on responsibility, hard work, effort and enterprise", he said.

It had been claimed that RBS bosses, chief executive Sir Fred Goodwin and chairman Sir Tom McKillop, had offered to leave under a boardroom clear-out agreed with the government, but this was denied by the bank.

The announcement provided an initial boost to the FTSE 100 index of leading shares, and in particular to banking stocks, but this fell away later in the day. The FTSE closed at a loss of 5 per cent – its lowest close since 2004 – while banks failed to hold on to the huge gains of up to 60 per cent made earlier in the day.

When Mr Brown stood to address the House of Commons on the package, which could well determine how his premiership is judged, he was able to announce the interest rate cut.

Central banks across Europe, the US, Canada and China also reduced interest rates in an emergency move.

The banks hope to encourage nervous consumers and businesses to spend more freely again after widespread housing, credit and financial problems.

The cut – which was immediately passed on to more than five million homeowners – was cautiously welcomed by analysts and business leaders.

Miles Templeman, director-general of the Institute of Directors, said: "Before today's announcement, the financial system was in the deep freeze. After today, it might be in the fridge, but there is no guarantee. Nobody should be under any illusion that the financial system is now fixed. Our concern now is for the real economy and how much it will slow.

"There remains a real risk that the economic downturn under way will further undermine bank capital due to rising repossessions and bad debt."

Howard Archer, an economist, of Global Insight, said: "It's not the magic pill. We have a lot of difficult times ahead. But the first stage is stopping things getting worse, and the hope is this will help to stabilise the economy."

Martin Weale, director of the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, said that, for the UK, it was important that the move came alongside the £500 billion package.

He said: "The international banks concluded there is a major international banking crisis. Banks were collapsing in Europe, as well as the United States. I think they rather optimistically concluded a rate cut of this type can restore confidence."

Rate cuts were "a valuable piece on the side", but he added: "The key issue is for affected countries to do what Britain has done and show governments are prepared to inject equity capital into banks that look as though they need it.

"We will only be confident the worst is over when the US adopts a scheme like Britain."

And Louise Cuming, the head of mortgages at moneysupermarket.com, warned: "This is not a magic cure-all, and we won't see either the mortgage or the housing market bouncing back to where it was 18 months ago."

Following the announcements, Mr Brown spoke by phone to the French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, and the Italian prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi, as well as the EC president, José Manuel Barroso.

The government is expected to hold up its plan as a potential model for the rest of Europe. The EU – which is concerned about competition implications of a scheme by Ireland to safeguard its deposits – later said it saw no problem with Britain's move.

Mr Darling is due to fly to Washington today to discuss global action on the crisis.



How clever was it? We offer some marks out of ten

Bill Jamieson,on the wisdom and implications of the British bail-out


IMMEDIATE IMPACT:

5 out of 10. Shares in HBOS and Royal Bank rallied after a faltering start. HBOS closed 24.5 per cent higher and RBS was up 0.8 per cent. UK shares overall continued to plunge, with the FTSE100 down another 5 per cent or 238.53 points at 4366.69. But the reaction in money markets to the package was notably more positive.

TIMING:

1 out of 10. Work has been under way on a bank rescue for weeks. So why the long delay?

RATE CUTS:

9 out of 10. The co-ordinated nature of the move by the world's central banks was particularly impressive. But more will be needed in the coming weeks. The near immediate passing on of the half per cent rate cut to mortgage borrowers is desperately needed good news for home-buyers.

PRESENTATION:

3 out of 10. Not impressive. And negotiations going on till early hours smacked of panic.

CONTENT:

8 out of 10. The package itself broadly went down well in money markets. It is seems well thought out, targeted at the key problems of capital strength and liquidity, is flexible, and does not crush the ordinary shareholders into oblivion.

OVERALL EFFECT:

Jury out.

This is going to take time. And this emergency package for UK banks will be of little use if the fiery panic across the world's markets is not staunched.

It will not stop the recession that is already under way. But what the deal has certainly prevented is a total collapse in confidence in the UK's financial system. It has improved the odds that there will still be a functioning banking system left by the end of the month. Whether that will be true by the time the storm has run its course may depend on further injections of central bank funds – and more rate cuts.

The huge efforts of the US Federal Reserve, the US Treasury, and the British and European governments and central banks have still not turned the tide.

WHAT IS THE TREASURY'S AIM?

It is to staunch the flight of confidence and to revive the inter-bank market – banks lending to other banks. To meet these objectives, it has effectively created a core group of banks of capital strength that will form the heart of the new UK financial system. By doing so the hope is this will end the flight of confidence and stop the run on bank shares.

The government is setting aside a further £25 billion to help other institutions build their capital so that they too will be fit counterparties for the core members. But in reviewing eligibility for inclusion, the government "will have due regard to an institution's role in the UK banking system and the overall economy".

It is likely a two-tier banking system will develop, similar to the world of 40 years ago when there was a distinction between clearing banks and secondary banks. The government will require a full commitment from participants in its scheme to support lending to small business and to home-buyers.

WILL IT WORK?

No-one can be sure. And certainly nothing is going to work until the firestorm raging across global markets is put out. Overnight Japan's stock market plummeted 9.4 per cent – its biggest one-day drop in 21 years. In Germany the Dax Index opened down 4.8 per cent while trading on the Moscow stock exchange was again halted.

Not even that co-ordinated rate cut by the US Federal Reserve (to 1.5 per cent), the Bank of England (to 4.5 per cent) and the European Central Bank (3.75 per cent) rallied markets as had been expected.

Tumbling share prices are a signal that a severe recession is going to hit whatever governments now do.

The overall aim of government is to reduce the risk that recession turns into depression through the vicious cycle between the worsening economy, deteriorating credit quality, heightened financial strains and reduced credit availability.

The aim is to ensure that there is still a functioning banking system left a) by the end of the month and b) once the recession ends.

The measures themselves will not on their own end the financial crisis. This is global in nature and the interlinkages are complex – and potentially highly flammable. So it is unlikely measures by any one country can return financial conditions to normal.

Says Saunders: "We are not yet even halfway through the decline in UK house prices. We are not even close to halfway through the UK recession, with associated job losses, business failures, mortgage arrears and repossessions and debt write- offs. Much pain lies ahead."

TOO LITTLE TOO LATE?

Many fear so. Further bank recapitalisation and liquidity measures may be needed. And there will almost certainly need to be further rate cuts, taking UK rates down to 3 per cent – possibly lower.

Banks move to pass on benefits
LINDSAY MCINTOSH


BORROWERS finally got some good news yesterday when UK banks passed on a shock interest rate cut.

The Bank of England dropped the base rate from 5 to 4.5 per cent at noon, in the surprise move 24 hours ahead of its scheduled decision. Some economists said it might soon plunge much lower.

Yesterday's action was mirrored by the world's major central banks, including the Federal Reserve in the United States and the European Central Bank, in an attempt to prevent a global economic meltdown.

Almost instantly, Britain's high street banks pledged to pass on the cut to customers. HBOS, Barclays and Lloyds TSB – which lends through the Cheltenham & Gloucester – were the first to cut their standard variable rates in line with the Bank of England.

Where the cut is passed on in full, it will knock about £47 off monthly repayments on a typical £150,000 mortgage, reducing repayments to £1,012.81 a month and saving consumers £570 a year, based on a new rate of 6.5 per cent.

Those with loans of £250,000 will benefit even more, saving £79 a month or £950 a year.

The rate reduction was welcomed by the Council of Mortgage Lenders, alongside the other measures taken by the government to help the banking sector.

Michael Coogan, the CML's director-general, said in cutting mortgage rates, the banks had helped to strengthen the rescue package announced by Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, and Alistair Darling, the Chancellor.

"Not only are the tripartite authorities now pulling together decisively to address domestic confidence, but international central bankers are also collaborating much more effectively on their position," he said. "All this decisive action augurs well for an improving market situation, even though no-one is pretending the tough times are over yet."

The US Federal Reserve reduced rates from 2 per cent to 1.5 per cent and the European Central Bank trimmed its rates from 4.25 per cent to 3.75 per cent. The central banks of Canada, Sweden and Switzerland all took similar action.

The Bank of England said that the drop was justified by likely falls in inflation in the coming months.

Howard Archer, the chief European and UK economist at Global Insight, predicted interest rates could be as low as 4 per cent by the end of the year.

Who thought what of rescue package

"Taken together with the co-ordinated cut in interest rates, today's package represents a welcome step on the road to normality in financial mar-kets, which is so critical for the wellbeing of the United Kingdom economy."

Keith Skeoch, CEO, Standard Life Investments

• "The government is using taxpayers' money as an easy way out, and haven't fully explored other options that don't put £50 billion of our hard-earned cash on the line."

Matthew Elliott, chief executive of the TaxPayers' Alliance

• "At last, the UK Treasury and Bank of England Monetary Policy Committee are wakening up to the scale of the crisis triggered by the credit crunch."

Jonathan Fair, chief executive of Homes for Scotland

• "In the wake of the recent financial carnage, the MPC's decision to cut the base rate by 0.5 per cent to 4.5 per cent is welcome news for struggling UK homeowners. This is the first reduction since April, and many borrowers will be breathing a long-awaited sigh of relief."

Ann Robinson, director of consumer policy at uSwitch.com

• "It is very welcome that the Bank of England has heeded calls for an interest rate cut to ease lending conditions and provide a stimulus to households and businesses, and brought forward the announcement in conjunction with other central banks.

Alex Salmond, First Minister

• "Excessive risk-taking should not be rewarded but punished."

Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister

CREDIT CRUNCH
IN NUMBERS


So what could £500bn buy?

• Four-and-a-half NHS's (based on annual UK health budget)

• Six UK education systems (based on budget for 2008-9)

• 55 UNs (based on its annual budget)

• 20 Beijing Olympics

• 1,250 Scottish Parliaments

• Seven Vietnam wars

• Four-and-a-half Iraq wars

• South Africa, Nigeria, Cameroon, Ghana, Tunisia, the Ivory Coast, Madagascar, the Republic of Congo, Chad and Malawi combined (based on their GDPs)




The full article contains 2733 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

,

09/10/2008 01:15:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 09/10/2008 01:36:24
Blame it ALL on STUPID George Baby Bush and his Cabinet of fumbling nincompoops and the Oval Office's lackeys at Wall Street.
3

SCULLION1,

Canada 09/10/2008 01:43:21
Despite all their hindsight gobbledygook, economists are worse at predictions than weathermen. At least weathermen try to predict something that obeys the laws of nature, economists have the impossible task of trying to predict how low money grubbers will sink to cash in.
4

,

09/10/2008 01:48:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
5

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 01:51:38


Tim ~2,

What you say, has absolute truth, we will get all the,..'Comments' on what you say is wrong!

But at end of-day, you are correct!

The USA Rules all World economy, 'one-way-or-the-other'

You, Slow Down or Stop, we all are affected!

And don't anyone say, I am Wrong!

Because if you do!, you are the only ones Wrong, in your non-understanding, of the Truths!
6

uniqorn51,

Tucson, USA 09/10/2008 02:12:52
The worlds economy has been crashing for at least a year, if one has been looking. The "collapse" occurs just before the American election. No accident. This timing was orchestrated for the benefit of Obama, who supports a One World Order, and therefor the needed decline of American influence. The bottom line is the loss of individual freedoms as nations give up their autonomy--to who?--what? Many have it backwards. There cannot be a One World Order with a strong America present. The Bushes and Clintons have been behind the decline of The United States for the sake of the coming One World. It will not be the United States who runs a One World Order.
7

RightStuff,

Texas, USA 09/10/2008 02:19:00
It wasn't George Bush. It was leftist do-gooder politicians who passed laws requiring financial institutions to loan money to people who couldn't pay it back. There are criminal penalties for "discriminating" against these poor, hapless folks. Get it? LEFTISTS, or SOCIALISTS. The US economy is 27% of the world's economy, and the do-gooders have fouled it up for the whole world. The US economy drives even poor Fidel Castro's Cuba's economy, whether he will admit it or not.
8

Forward not Back,

09/10/2008 02:20:34
#6 - yep, it's all a conspiracy!

Nothing to do with granting mortgages to ex-cons or unemployed people, and nothing at all to do with 0% interest credit card offers that you can max out and transfer onto another credit card, then get your limit increased.

No, definitely all a conspiracy.
9

kaw kaay shion,

waukesha, wi, usa 09/10/2008 02:23:21
"NEW WORLD ORDER".....There goes those COMMUNIST buzzwords provided to you ALL by George Herbert Walker Bush in the 1990's through his Bejing buddies. While the Chinese are passing out their little red books to the rest of you, the thirty million American Veterans will be shooting as soon as we see the whites of their eyes. We promise.
10

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 09/10/2008 02:28:45
#2 TimW1234

You are aiming at the wrong den of thieves. The fault lies with the Unted States Congress, primarily with Senators Dodd and Schumer and Representative Franks, who have been bribed for several years with large "contributions" from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and specifically their politically appointed chief executives Franklin Raines and Jim Johnson. These people were cooking the books at their own organizations but wre "punished" with large golden parachutes when they were forced out.

Bush and his cabinet could do little about this. In the United States, Congress holds the purse strings.


11

,

09/10/2008 02:37:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
12

Bend Over,

09/10/2008 02:43:39
"New World Order"

Hahahaha, hilarious.

More like a Brave New World, or 1984.

Anyway folks, the party is over, we have been living on credit for 30 years and the "man" wants his money back. Both major parties have conspired to wreck our economy, all the ship yards, steel mills, textile mills, coal mines have gone, the cupboard is bare.

You can't support a country of 60 million people by selling each other Chinese imports and dodgy financial services.

We have no one to blame but ourselves for electing the traitors. Check out the Sun http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1780948.ece
The country is bankrupt, our own people are sleeping in cardboard boxes and we are paying £12000 a month to house immigrants.

Hahaha, we have been well and truly screwed, it goes down fast from now on.
13

,

09/10/2008 02:51:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
14

Forward not Back,

09/10/2008 03:15:06
#11 - the guilty people are the central bankers for not controlling the money supply properly.

You obviously think that's deliberate. If so, what was the need to create the super derivatives that no one understood in the first place, or was that all part of the masterplan?
15

US Cavalry,

Virginia, USA 09/10/2008 03:48:09
Beware the Bonesmen,
The Bush's are members and as many world finacial leaders. First you destroy individual country's economy and then come's the New World Order bringing hope and prosparity. Might even call it the Fourth Reich but global. Damn the Bush's and Cheney are good.
Oh and did I forget to mention, so is Cheney a Bonesmen.
16

,

09/10/2008 04:30:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
17

,

09/10/2008 05:33:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
18

Ursus arctos horribilis,

09/10/2008 05:34:30
The fact that the Libour numptie at #15 thinks this is a good plan should tell you everything you need to know.

The root of this problem has been the inadequate under-pricing of risk due to the low-interest rate, credit expansionist policy pusued under Greenspan in the US over the past nearly two decades years and copied by The Iron Chancellor -what a truly sick joke that moniker is-the man whose master-stroke was to sell all our gold reserves for a pittance and who has helped create the biggest financial bubble in recent history.

A boom based on debt that is about to go bust -spectacularly.

The suggested solution from the dynamic duo-financial novices-who have been behind the curve all the way?-Cut interest rates?? This will only perpetuate the problem and shore up over-valued asset prices. And what will happen when the estimated $55 trillion in Credit Default Swaps washing around the market that dont even appear on any banks balance sheets -come into play and trigger even more carnage? The markets have lost all confidence.

If we had any armed forces left I would surmise that like in some banana republic they would presently be contemplating taking control in the national interest and ousting these charlatans in a coup d'etat -but like everything else they get their mits on Liebour have run our proud services down as well and have them fighting futile wars in Iraq in Afghanistan.

The lesson : Never trust Labour in power-this will be their third attempt at trying to bankrupt the country -and quite possibly their most successful.

After their last effort in government we had to endure the pain of Thatcher whose solution was to destroy industry- whatever the social cost -and reduce the national debt by selling all the national silver via a massive privatization scheme.

This time the prospective incoming Tory Government will have nothing of any value left to sell -apart from the banks-only they wont even have those because apparently the Governm
19

Ursus arctos horribilis,

09/10/2008 05:42:50
Cont.

This time the prospective incoming Tory Government will have nothing of any value left to sell -apart from the banks-only they wont even have those because apparently the Government has taken Preference shares rather than equity!!

I dont see how this can be avoided-the bill has now arrived for the over-indulgence and living beyond our means and enormous wealth that has accrued to a minority while the majority are up to their necks in debt. The reality is that the success of the US/UK rescue packages depends as much on the support of China and the Middle East providing the finance as it does on the taxpayer-a frightening prospect!
20

Stuart F.,

Vancouver, B. C. 09/10/2008 05:42:53
Does anyone remember the Reaganomics thingy? Let's face it folks, the Banks have been doing this lending to each other for years, more so in the Excited States than in Canada.Thin Air is right, there is no easy fix in this financial mess-up. And isn't amazing that major banks will continue to worry about their profit margins but screw their employees out of benefits and full time hours etc, while nickel and diming their customers with stupid service charges. Where does all that money go?
21

Pilrig,

Livingston 09/10/2008 05:45:26
Keynes rules OK
22

Pilrig,

Livingston 09/10/2008 05:48:05
7 - Alf Garnett has moved to Texas
23

,

09/10/2008 05:48:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
24

Glasgow Expat,

Desert 09/10/2008 06:03:12
Greenspan deserves most of the blame in my opinion. The great bubble blower. But it's all human natural cycles. Kondratief was right. Check out www.thelongwaveanalyst.ca or www.elliottwave.com for some education folks. And if you think the Fed and the fiat money system is good then check this out..http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5232639329002339531
Buy GOLD..it gets much, much worse than this folks.
25

Ursus arctos horribilis,

09/10/2008 06:05:34
To understand the extent of the US dependence on overseas support :

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/margareta-pagano/margareta-pagano-will-china-tip-the-us-balance-of-financial-terror-951396.html


"Foreign countries now own nearly a quarter, some $2.6 trillion, of the total US debt. They also own more than $14 trillion in US assets – that's more than the total US national output.
By far the biggest chunk of this debt is still owned by the Japanese, with US Treasuries worth $593.4bn. But soaring up the debt table is China, which now controls $518.7bn, more than 8 per cent higher over the past year, and equal to about half of the total $1.2 trillion it holds in reserve assets. Oil-rich states are also snapping up T-bills as though they are going out of fashion – up 29 per cent on the year to $173bn. On top of this, the US has a trade deficit with China in the first six months of this year of $142bn – and it is still growing. "

The big thing in the US's favour is that these lender countries have a symbiotic relaionship with Uncle Sam -at the moment they both need each other.Like a junkie the US is in too deep to Japan/China as it continues to rack-up massive trade deficits to preserve its over-indulgent lifestyle and the highest standard of living on the planet. Chinese growth is reliant on being able to export to the US and if these lenders did pull out it would destroy the dollar/ and hurt their own investments denominated in $assets. The fact that the dollar has been strengthening suggests that they are willing to continue to support as further evidenced by Asian banks recently buying American banks. However consider the longer-term implications re global power.

As for the impact of this on the UK-well we are the de facto 51st state -without enjoying the benefits of the US standard of living- and if US sneezes we get the flu or worse!
26

Ursus arctos horribilis,

09/10/2008 06:13:10
#27 please do us all a favour and stick to posting your puerile nonsense on the football topics and leave the serious stuff to the adults!
27

Ursus arctos horribilis,

09/10/2008 06:33:40
#26 To be fair George Soros has been calling this one right for some time and is probalby umteen billions to the good.

Here's a quote by a former director of the Bank of England:

"Banking was conceived in iniquity and born in sin. Bankers own the Earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create money, and with the flick of the pen they will create enough money to buy it back again?

Take this great power away from them and all great fortunes like mine will disappear, and they ought to disappear, for then this would be a better and happier world to live in. But if you want to continue to be slaves of the banks and pay the cost of your own slavery, then let bankers continue to create money and control credit." - Josiah Stamp (Director of the Bank of England, 1928-194)

And from the Masters themselves:

"The few who understand the system will either be so interested in its profits or be so dependent upon its favours that there will be no opposition from that class, while on the other hand, the great body of people, mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantage that capital derives from the system, will bear its burdens without complaint, and perhaps without even suspecting that the system is inimical to their interests." The Rothschild brothers of London writing to associates in New York, 1863.
28

Ubi,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 06:43:30
A new convention in spin has emerged from this fiasco. Costs and risks are borne by "government". Benefits and returns, however unlikely, are to be enjoyed by the "tax payer".

The reality of course is that we - who did not ask our government to give away our money - pick up the whole tab. £16,000 each I hear to finance Fred Goodwin's and others' madness.
29

Drum Major,

risbane, Australia 09/10/2008 06:47:19
George Bush senior announced the 'New World Order' in 1990. George W is just following the script. It is about a One World Government by bankers. Barry Smith (1933-2002) told you so.
30

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 09/10/2008 06:52:59
Barry Smith wrote a series of books between 1980 & 2002 about the New World Order and warning of the present events.
31

,

09/10/2008 06:55:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
32

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 09/10/2008 06:56:06
Google Barry Smith.
33

,

09/10/2008 07:10:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
34

subwo,

Colorado, USA 09/10/2008 07:14:38
One should watch the first part of the Google Video: Zeitgeist Addendum. (released 2 Oct 08) It shows how the money in the fractional reserve system is created from thin air and debt will soon be unable to be paid back to the centeral banks for the interest is too much.
35

donald,

glasgow 09/10/2008 07:17:49
It was a;ll caused by greed and speculation and the fact that the bankers did not rust each other end reneged on their gambling debts.
36

W Smith,

Middle East 09/10/2008 07:19:40
Gordon Brown has spent on average 400 billion pounds a year to keep the UK's public sector going, spending a massive total of 4 trillion pounds as his time as Chancellor.

Our Gordon spent some of this cash on the small army of new employees (600,000) he hired for the unproductive Public Sector.

If only he had ran a surplus rather than a deficit, as the IMF advised, things might have turned out a little better.
37

,

09/10/2008 07:19:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
38

Rufus T. Firefly,

09/10/2008 07:24:51
What we need to do going forward is to follow the Norwegian model. I am suprised no one has mentioned this.

Nevsky tried following a Norwegian Model once. He got arrested for stalking though and got 5 years in the Gulag.
39

Rufus T. Firefly,

09/10/2008 07:30:44
The current crisis has certainly dealt a fatal blow to the independence cause thats for sure.

Two of our biggest employers will now be in hock to the Bank of England for years to come.

Everybody else works in the public sector with guaranteed gold plated pensions.

A totally unsustainable situation for an independent Scotland.

Especially with oil heading to $50 a barrel.
40

Vote UKIP,

09/10/2008 07:45:29
ENDGAME- ALEX JONES - Blueprint for Global Enslavement

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1070329053600562261&ei=UantSIG4II2wiALfyJm9Bg&q=endgame+alex+jones
41

Dave,

Isle of Barra 09/10/2008 07:51:50
Where is this £500 Billion package coming from? Is Gordon simply printing the money?

Lets hope not or we are in for a spell of hyper inflation (like Zimbabwae).

Somebody said to me the other day that this could be the work of terrorists i.e. can't beat our military might but can beat our financial institutions (hence the World Trade Centre tradgedy).

Either way, we are in for a bumpy ride.
42

,

09/10/2008 07:52:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
43

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 09/10/2008 07:55:52
£16,000 per person in the UK is, if the D Mail sums are right, what each of us has to pay to save the system from breakdown.

This translates into huge inflation, demands for wage increases and unemployment.

Nasty medicine, so let's hope the cure is better than the disease. Then it might be worth the sacrifices we're about to have to make.

Only Albanian champagne from now on for my breakfasts.
44

Unimpressed one,

09/10/2008 08:00:19
By this time next year this will all seem like a bad dream. Hopefully banks will be reined in and the housing market stabilised. By 2010 we will be in growth again.
45

mk-ultra,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 08:04:15
"Countless people ... will hate the new world order ... and will die protesting it. When we attempt to evaluate its promise, we have to bear in mind the distress of a generation or so of malcontents, many of them quite gallant and graceful-looking people."
(H.G. Wells)

He's talking about YOU.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173&ei=ZqztSP33F42wiALfyJm9Bg&q=america+freedom+to+fascism

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1070329053600562261&ei=pRDUSKjqKou2iALIufHTAg&q=endgame
46

Boy Wonder,

09/10/2008 08:09:17
Will those responsible for the present mess ever be brought to justice??? We know who they are ... corrupt bankers and politicians all out to make a buck, regardless of the rest of us!
47

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:13:03
The only thing that surprises me about this situation is that few people realise it was planned and didnt just happen.
48

Xena - Warrior Princess,

09/10/2008 08:13:46
I agree that greed is the motivating factor in all this, I sincerely hope that the City and the Bankers do not have the nerve to award themselves bonuses this year.
49

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:15:14
44

So by your unassailable logic Rufus 6 months every independent nation on the planet better get their a*ses in gear and join up to the union pronto before they go under simply for being indepedent outside of this union.
50

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 08:15:49
53 parcel
Who planned it and why?
51

Dave,

Western Isles 09/10/2008 08:17:32
Ugly George @57

Terrorists and to bring down the West. They don't like us you know......
52

Boab,

Glasgow 09/10/2008 08:18:30
#32 Ubi: Another paper worked it out at £20K per taxpayer. Hey, remember Labour proclaiming that independence will cost us £5,000 each?
53

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:18:44
52

Smeagal all you ever post is "scare" figures and data.
For you to complain about somebody else posting inaccurate and dodgy data is like listening to Hitler complaining about somebody passing gas in a crowded room.
54

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:20:27
57

Maybe it was you Ugly? and the why is for personal profit as always.
You wont see any of our top politicians going under with their investments thats for sure.
55

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 08:20:57
52 sm753
The crucial thing now for the taxpayer is whether the banks return to profitability. If they do, then their share prices should recover and this might turn out to be a good investment for the taxpayer.
56

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:21:28
57

Which part of Edinburgh are you going to pretend you live in Ugly?
57

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 08:22:38
61 parcel
Are you saying this was all planned by politicians?
58

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 08:23:43
63 parcel
Why should I pretend to live in Edinburgh?
59

mk-ultra,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 08:23:58
#51

This "New World Order" caper is about much more than bankers and politicians trying to make a buck.
This is a very old plan to create a global system of political and financial control run by elite international Bankers.
A World Government.
Take a look at the videos that "Vote UKIP" and I posted, all will be explained.......

"We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the
nations will accept the New World Order."
- David Rockefeller
60

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:24:46
65

Because you dont even live in Scotland yet you want to post as if you do.
61

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:25:29
64

Yes are you saying it wasnt?
62

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 08:27:20
68 parcel
I am saying that I doubt if it was planned. You are the one saying that it was. So why don't you answer the question. Who planned it and why?
63

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:28:06
69

Well if I knew the details I would be one of the richest men on the planet wouldnt I?
64

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:29:02
69

So which part of Edinburgh are you going to pretend you live in Ugly?
65

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 08:30:32
67 Parcel
Once again false info. I do live in Edinburgh and, last time I checked, Edinburgh is in Scotland. What is this anyway - are you trying to claim that just because I offer details that you disagree with that I don't live in Scotland. Is there a rule that says everybody in Scotland must agree with you.
66

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:33:04
72

What false info Ugly? Ok so yer fae Edinburgh.
Where in Edinburgh was Cox's glue factory?
67

,

09/10/2008 08:36:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
68

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:36:26
72

Ok if thats too hard for you how about the union canal do you know where the draw bridge is?
69

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:38:02
72

How about what Davidsons mains used to be called previously?
70

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:39:13
72

Oh come on ok heres an easy peasy one what was the Willie Muir?
71

Dave,

Western Isles 09/10/2008 08:39:49
Thinair

Didn't know Bin Laden was the only Muslim in the world! Gosh!

Yes, of course, the muslim world loves the West have proclaim that at every opportunity, eh? They also don't want to introduce Sharia law into Scotland nor did the Glasgow airport bombing ever happen.....
72

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:40:28
72

Whose memorial stands on the junction of North Charlotte and St Colms?
73

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 08:40:41
71 parcel
I actually live in the Brunsfield area which is on the South side of the city which is why I did not know which bus to get to Stockbridge as you asked the other day as Stockbridge is on the North side. From here you can get ano 11,16 bus down Lothian Road to Princes St (when access is available because of work laying the lines for the trams)

Alternatively you can get a no23 which turns right at Tollcross and goes down the Mound past Waverley Station. You can also go down to Polwarth Terrace and get a no 10 into town as well. If you want to go out of town to Heriot Watt Uni at Riccarton (just past the garden centre) you go up to Colinton Road and get a no.45. If you get off the no 45 before it turns right at Currie Primary School you can get on a 44 to Balerno

The weather in Edinburgh today is quite mild with some high broken cloud and there is a light breeze as I can see looking out the window. Please withdraw your false assertion that I do not live in Edinburgh.
74

Richard Lionheart,

09/10/2008 08:41:52
"WE HAVE ENDED BOOM & BUST"

Gordon Brown, PM & Leader of the Labour Party

Comment made by GB 500Bn Times in last 12 months!

Trust me I'm Gordon! "Mandy" is joined to me at the Hip
75

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:41:53
72

Well now Ugly, now that we have established yer dishonesty and the fact that you are more than likely posting from Labour party HQ LONDON we can continue on that basis from now on eh.
76

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:43:16
80

Nothing you couldnt pick up off the web Ugly including the weather Christ you can pick up real time views of any city in the UK via their CCTV system on the Web these days.
77

Doh,

09/10/2008 08:44:21

The important thing now is to get government of the backs of the bankers.

We need to use the talent in the City, coupled with the market forces, to reform public services.

There is no point throwing money at a problem.

That is why City bankers are willing to work for so little renumeration.
78

Dave,

Western Isles 09/10/2008 08:44:26
Ugly Geoarge and Sucha

You are boviously not too bothered about the emerging new world order, the economy going belly up, where Brown is getting £500 billion from, the war in Afghanistan, Muslims wanting to introduce Sharia law, the loss of millions of pounds, global warming/climate change and other general "bad stuff".

However, the rest of us are. We don't care whether you live in Edinburgh or the moon. Keep your petty squabblings for playtime.

Thanks
79

,

09/10/2008 08:47:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
80

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:49:04
85

WTF asked for your opinion?
81

Dave,

Western Isles 09/10/2008 08:51:21
Thinair

Aye, the Glesga airport waan't the best thought out plan. Strangely, it was Doctors that organised it but then again, they were doped out thier heads.

I'm only hgihlighting a conspiracy theory to throw in with the rest. It holds as much water as any other. And the Muslims would do anything to bring down the west and if you look hard enough, you can make 2+2 add up to all sorts of numbers!
82

Dave,

Western Isles 09/10/2008 08:52:29
87

Charming. I'll express an opinion whether you like it or not. What you gonna do? Cry? Throw your dummy out the pram? You don't even live in Scotland.
83

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:54:03
88

"And the Muslims would do anything to bring down the west and if you look hard enough, you can make 2+2 add up to all sorts of numbers!"

Including invading our counties? bombing the sh*t out of our cities and starving hundreds of thousands of our children to death?
84

Prudence,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:54:52
57
The "New World order" and their numptie followers . Follow the real money. As we say in Scotland , a fool and their money is easily parted .
85

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 08:55:48
85 Dave
You are quite right. I will stop wasting my time on this. If parcel choses to distort things and refuses to believe facts in this manner that is his problem
86

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:56:14
89

Just expressing my own opinion what are you going to do about it cry? fling yer dummy? and yes I do live in Scotland and in Edinburgh probably one of the very few on here who actually does.
87

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:57:04
92

What would a Labour party political troll know about facts? apart from how to avoid or distort them?
88

Richard Lionheart,

09/10/2008 08:57:47
Sadly, the lack of confidence is now in the Loan books of the banks.

The British public is over borrowed over taxed and underpaid.

The 0.5% reduction in base rate will have little effect on what is now the underlying problem. What it does is reduce the incomes of those who now rely on income from their savings, many of whom have seen their values wiped out in stock market investments.

Liquidity must be injected directly into the pockets of “Joe Public”, that means far reaching cuts in indirect taxation NOW.

There is NO room for more dithering from G Brown or Alistair (Orville) Darling
89

Dave,

Western Isles 09/10/2008 08:57:54
93

No you don't. You've never stepped foot in Scotland.

Express away, I will never deny anybody thier right to an opinion on the subject at hand. Unlike yourself.
90

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 09:00:08
96

I thought you were concerned about the issues?
What a hypocrite getting bogged in personal posts.
Stones and glass houses sunshine.
91

Dave,

Western Isles 09/10/2008 09:02:07
97

awwwww. Didums. Big word for you "hypocrite". Use it wisely.

Right, to hand. We're doomed. We have borrowed too much and over inflated the housing market. Where has all the money gone though?
92

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 09:06:24
98

The money has all gone into a few selective pockets as it usually does.
Dont you just love conservative capitalism when it all goes to plan?
93

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 09:08:35
98 Dave
"Where has all the money gone though?"
That,in a sense, encapsulates the issue. Much of the talk about £billio