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Dundee honours Churchill

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Published Date: 10 May 2008
DUNDEE yesterday marked the 100th anniversary of Winston Churchill being elected an MP in the city.
The wartime prime minister served Dundee between 1908 and 1922. His tenure ended when the prohibitionist Edwin Scrymgeour swept to victory.

Some historians claim that Churchill never forgave Dundonians for the snub – he refused to accept the freedom of the city in 1943.

A bronze plaque was unveiled by his youngest daughter and only surviving child, Lady Soames, 85, in a private ceremony at Dundee University yesterday.

She said: "I am so delighted to be back in Dundee and to have the chance to see this remarkable exhibition."





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  • Last Updated: 09 May 2008 8:05 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Guga II,

Rockall 10/05/2008 02:09:16
Why would any self-respecting Scot honour this creep. Not only was he to blame for the fiasco at Gallipoli, but he is the man who sent troops in against the miners in Tonypandy, and who sent 10,000 English troops and tanks in against the Red Clydesiders.

Apart from that, this is the man who wouldn't let the Londoners use the underground stations as air raid shelters - they had to force their way in. He, of course, was safely ensconced in his own underground air raid shelter.

This is also the man who spent the war years pissed as a newt on whisky and champagne, to go with his caviar and large cigars, while the hoi polloi were struggling to survive on rations.
2

Graeme,

Guangzhou 10/05/2008 04:28:48
Gaga,

He was a great man. You on the other hand are a total embarrassment to your country.

A true idiot.
3

,

10/05/2008 05:25:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
4

Graeme,

Guangzhou 10/05/2008 06:29:01
#3. For starters I assume you have read William Manchester’s books on Churchill?

If not I suggest you do.

He was the last lion.
5

Guga II,

Rockall 10/05/2008 07:00:07
#2. Listen wee man, never mind what some book says. try reading up on your history and get the facts. I know that for a stunted dwarf like you he might seem like "lion", but he wasn't. He was a self-serving, self-publicising fascist that, among other things, wanted to keep places like India as a colony to be exploited.
6

donald,

glasgow 10/05/2008 07:10:27
Churchill also sacrificed the Highland Division at St Valery.

He also said he would repopulate Scotland with people from England after the war.

He fell out with the Sunday Post, who persuaded him to stand in Dundee. The S PO after that never mentioned him by name and always referred to him as the "Prime Minister".

Churchill also stood on a Home Rule platform, as did the victorious teetotal candidate.

Home Rule? Bring it on!.
7

Graeme,

Guangzhou 10/05/2008 07:23:00
Gaga #5,
An extremely eloquent reply. You have certainly proved that you live up to my last sentence contained within #2.




8

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 08:27:09
At least the City of Dundee had balanced representation during this period?

One M.P. overfond of alcohol, and the other an abstemious
prohibitionist!

9

Fairfax,

10/05/2008 08:59:28
Guga II (1): "the man who wouldn't let the Londoners use the underground stations as air raid shelters"

Our government did oppose the use of tube stations initially, but soon backed down. I don't recall Churchill being especially against their use though. I suspect the tubes really didn't seem a good idea initially. Mo mother, who was 15 at the start of the war, and living in south Hackney, disliked them intensely: tubes were crowded and fetid, particularly in summer. One other striking memory was the large numbers of mosquitos in summer.

"while the hoi polloi were struggling to survive on rations."

Surely only hoi polloi say "the hoi polloi". . . I was born in the mid-1960s, when memories of rations were strong. Nobody mentioned struggling to survive during the war itself: potatoes weren't rationed during the war, for example (although they were in the late 1940s), and, even in central London, many people kept chickens or kept a small garden, say,if possible: one of my great-uncles helped farm allotment gardens in what had been the moat of the Tower of London, for example. Health statistics during and after the war are, in fact, fairly positive.
10

Boy Wonder,

10/05/2008 09:07:43
Churchill was a crafty and very dodgy old warmonger. Just what was needed against Hitler at the time. But the public weren't daft and voted him out of office right after war's end.

Is Dundee so bereft of local heroes they should celebrate a man who used, then abused them?
11

celtic4,

USA 16/05/2008 03:09:25
I know a good many citizens of the United States who highly respected Churchill. He was among the great men.
12

BridgetC,

Forfar 16/05/2008 16:15:17
Local heroes - yes, ones that spring to mind are - Sir David Lane, who discovered the p53 tumour suppressing-protein, which could be the key to curing cancer and is still living and working in Dundee. NCR (okay, not a hero or person but) HQ in Dundee invented the hole in the wall cash machine. Of course the greatest, worst poet, McGonagall, mentioned in another headline. And William Wallace, from some sources, studied in Dundee, before getting involved in the war against England. And of course, Dundee's most famous son, Dennis the Menance!
13

Johnnyf,

Dundee 17/05/2008 06:59:42
Churchill should never be honoured by Dundee, he was run out of town, chased to the railway station, I knew a woman who was actually spat on by "Clemmie". Remember he changed his political party when in Dundee, from Liberal to Conservative. I agree about the comments about Gallipoli etc.. If Churchill had his way we probably would still be fighting WW2 as he wanted to join forces with Germany to overrun Russia. An evil man who has acheived a status far above his acheivements.
As for Dundee's local heroes, you people in the southern part of Scotland should wake up. McGonagall
was from Edinburgh, radar was invented in Dundee, yes, William Wallace "struck the first blow for Scottish independance in Dundee" celebrated by a plaque, covered over in the 1960's by the city fathers by a bus drivers "buckie". Also the real inventor of the post stamp, James Chalmers, although from Arbroath, lived and had a shop in Dundee. Pehs,that nobody in other parts of Scotland can pronounce properly, world renowned cancer research, and, who can forget Lochee boy Davie Narey's goal against Brazil. Dundee has had two teams in the semi-finals of the old European Cup, without cheating and relying on "dodgy" referees.
But getting back to Churchill, bad, bad,turncoat.
14

Johnnyf,

Dundee 17/05/2008 07:01:48
In reply to #8, it was Neddy Srimgeour, the prohibitionist who displaced Churchill.
15

Miss Dee,

Tayside 21/05/2008 11:50:37
Churchill was a paranoid, priviledged, warmonger who hated the working class and provoked Hitler by snubbing the Russians request for troops in Poland. One day he will be fully recognised as the incompetent, petty fool that he was- but not until the old guard die out and truth is allowed to prevail. He was NO WARRIOR- he never dirtied his hands in battle!
16

Papko,

Fife 24/06/2008 01:14:40
Churchill had a very active Military career , He took part in The charge at Omdurman in 1898 , and was also captured by the Boers and escaped during the Boer war .
It is easy to pick faults in anybody after they are dead , and I can think of no one who had such an illustrious career as Churchill .
Frankly I prefer to honour Great men from the past , than some Dole Scrounger with a big plasma telly
;-)
17

Billy Boy,

Sherman Oaks 29/06/2008 16:34:08
No 2, Graeme, I suggest you read Lord Marons' book also. Churchill was representative of all that was wrong with Britain in those years. How could a titled individual from the south of England have been in a position to represent the people of Dundee. His leadership was born of arrogance. His military decisions, particularly the futile attempt to reinforce the Singapore garrison were scandalous. That this man should now be honoured in Dundee is a travesty. As for No 11, celtic4; I know a good many Americans who respect George Bush!
18

Historian,

London 14/08/2008 13:12:46
The ignorance on this board is astounding.

"he is the man who sent troops in against the miners in Tonypandy"

No, this was a much-repeated lie (i.e. 'Churchill shot miners') which has been proved wrong. Try reading Martin Gilbert's biography of Churchill for the real facts. NOBODY died at Tonypandy. Churchill sent troops in after the strikers turned violent, started rioting, and had already caused massive damage to shops and houses. The troops, on Churchill's orders, opened fire over their heads as a warning. Nobody was killed. Nobody was wounded by gunfire.

Months earlier, before Churchill was Home Secretary, troops had been sent in against striking miners under then-Home Secretary Reginald McKenna, and and they DID shoot and kill several of them. Declassified memos from the time show that Churchill was repelled by this act, and gave orders around Tonypandy specifically saying he didn't want a single life lost.

Try getting your facts right. Read a book. A reputable book. Better yet, read several, and make up your mind which is accurate.
19

Historian,

London 14/08/2008 14:06:52
"this is the man who wouldn't let the Londoners use the underground stations as air raid shelters - they had to force their way in. He, of course, was safely ensconced in his own underground air raid shelter."

Wrong again. After the British government had initially refused to let Londoners in to the tube stations, and they started breaking in, the order to open up the stations came straight from Churchill.

Yes, he did have his own personal bunker, built for Neville Chamberlain. If you visit it, you'll find that he never used it - he hated the idea of skulking around in the cellars, and so almost never stayed there overnight. On the contrary,he preferred to stand on the roof of 10 Downing Street and/or the nearby Treasury, watching the bombs fall down around him, fully exposed.

The only times he went to bed in the bunker were when his wife would insist that he sleep there, so he'd change into his pyjamas, say goodnight to her (they slept in separate rooms), spend 10 minutes there, and go back up to his upstairs bedroom.

Incidentally, for the poster who said you should read William Manchester's books on Churchil - don't. They're not very good. They're riddled with factual mistakes, and they're written ina flowery way that tries to glamorise Churchill at every turn, instead of clearly imparting the facts.
20

Historian,

14/08/2008 14:12:33
"Churchill was a crafty and very dodgy old warmonger"

Was this the same Churchill who spent the 1930s arguing for peace? The same Churchill who commissioned the Beveridge Report, which was implemented by Clement Attlee's Labour government, but which Churchill had already agreed to implement if her won the 1945 election?


"Churchill was a paranoid, priviledged, warmonger who hated the working class"

He hated the working class so much that he was personally responsible for introducing Labour Exchanges in the 1900s, helped Lloyd George introduce unemployment insurance for the first time in the 1910s, allocated unprecedented amounts of money to social housing when he was Chancellor in the 1920s, and as Prime Minister after the war in the 1950s, his priority was "ending rationing, which is an affront to the working man."

You people don't know what you're talking about.
21

Historian,

14/08/2008 14:22:14
"If Churchill had his way we probably would still be fighting WW2 as he wanted to join forces with Germany to overrun Russia."

Um, no, he never said that.

After World War I, he wanted Britain to intervene in the civil war in Russia, on the side of the Whites against the Reds. He saw revolutionary communism as a menace to democracy, which would threaten the West. Stranegly enough, he was proved right.

After the appeasement of Hitler at Munich in 1938, he advocated a 'Grand Alliance' of European powers, including Russia, to threaten Hitler with the use of force and make him withdraw from the various occupied territories, and disarm in a verifiable manner. This would incidentally have averted World War II.

After World War II, in 1946, Churchill warned of the growing totalitarianism and expansionism of Stalin's Russia, and advocated sterner diplomacy (not war) with Stalin. At no time did he propose an alliance with Germany, which would have been worthless anyway, as Germany had no army at the time.
22

Historian,

14/08/2008 14:32:05
"One day he will be fully recognised as the incompetent, petty fool that he was- but not until the old guard die out and truth is allowed to prevail."

Actually, the Churchill papers went into the public domain over 20 years ago. They're one of the most extensive collections of private papers for any idividual ever accumulated, and they include all his unused drafts of letters, speeches and articles, etc, and so you can follow exactly what was on his mind at the time. His reputation has, if anything, actually improved as a result of this scrutiny, not least in disproving the unsubstantiated and incorrect nonsense which people like you will write.

"He was NO WARRIOR- he never dirtied his hands in battle!"

Again, no.

He was a front-line solider in five wars. He served in the the Malakand Field Force in what is now Pakistan and Afghanistan. He was attached to the Spanish forces in Cuba. He was at the front of the cavalry charge of Omdurman, and took part in Kitchener's expedition to Sudan. He fought in the Boer War, becoming a hero after escaping from prison, over 200 miles behind enemy lines.

In World War I, he was demoted after the Dardanelles, but remained a cabinet minister. He could have quite happily continued sitting safely in an office, but wanting to have a direct effect on the war effort, he resigned and went on to serve on the fropnt line of the trenches. He commanded a Scots batallion for 6 months, was by all accounts an exemplary commander, and repeatedly volunteered for over 20 missions into No Man's Land.

So you're simply wrong.

 

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