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Public inquiry into Trump's £1bn golf resort set to start in 10 weeks



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Published Date:
11 March 2008
THE public inquiry into Donald Trump's controversial plans for a £1 billion golf resort in Aberdeenshire could begin in the middle of June, it emerged yesterday.
Scotland's most senior planning-appeals official is to head the inquiry into the American business tycoon's proposals to transform an environmentally sensitive stretch of the North-east coastline into a massive golf resort, leisure and housing devel
opment.

As part of the process, a pre- inquiry hearing will be held in Aberdeen later this month to decide on the main issues to be addressed and to determine the scope of the inquiry.

Last month, Mr Trump expressed surprise over the announcement of a public inquiry into his golf-resort plan, but said it could be a positive move provided "it can go quickly".

And he warned: "If the process takes too long, I'll have no choice but to go some place else."

Last night, George Sorial, the Trump Organisation's managing director of international development and Mr Trump's right-hand man, said: "We are satisfied that the process is moving forward, albeit slower than we would have liked, and accept that concrete timescales will not be available until after the pre-inquiry meeting.

"Given the amount of scrutiny our proposals have been under and the considerable work done to date with the statutory consultees, we are hopeful the public local inquiry will be an efficient process that focuses solely on the main issues."

The inquiry will be conducted by James McCulloch, the Chief Reporter and director for planning and environmental appeals (DPEA).

Last night, a spokeswoman for the Scottish Government said: "Mr McCulloch will hear the evidence and report to ministers. A pre-inquiry meeting will be held on 26 March at the Aberdeen Exhibition and Conference Centre.

"The purpose of the pre- inquiry meeting is to discuss the administrative arrangements for the inquiry. No discussion will take place concerning the relative merits of the proposal. The meeting will focus on issues such as the identification of the main issues for the inquiry, the scope and sequence of evidence and the likely duration and scale of the inquiry."

The spokeswoman added: "The Chief Reporter considers that the inquiry should start in the second half of June. An exact timescale will only be available after the pre-inquiry meeting."

The £1 billion development at the Menie Estate, near Balmedie, was "called in" by the Scottish Government after the Trump application was rejected by Aberdeenshire Council's planning committee.

John Swinney, the finance secretary, announced last month that the application would have to go to a public inquiry as it had raised issues of importance that required consideration at a national level.

He said at the time: "I am determined there should be no unnecessary delay in considering this application and will make my decision within 28 days of receiving the DPEA report."

Mr Trump's plans for the 1,400-acre development site include two championship courses, a five-star luxury hotel with 450 bedrooms, 500 residential homes and almost 1,000 timeshare apartments.

The project was one of the most divisive to come before Aberdeenshire Council and attracted 2,835 letters of representation – 985 against the development and 1,850 in favour. The scheme has been lauded by business and tourism leaders as a boost for the area's economy.

But conservation groups, including Scottish Natural Heritage, the Scottish Wildlife Trust and RSPB Scotland, have objected to plans to build part of the main championship golf course on a unique system of sand dunes designated a site of special scientific interest.

NO STRANGER TO MAJOR PLANNING REVIEWS

JAMES McCulloch, who has been appointed by the Scottish Government to head the Trump inquiry, is Scotland's most experienced planning inquiry reporter.

Mr McCulloch is the Chief Reporter and director for planning and environmental appeals at the Directorate for Planning and Environmental Appeals, which has its headquarters in Falkirk. He has been involved in planning since the early 1970s and joined the Inquiry Reporters Unit, which was the precursor of the current planning directorate, in 1984.

Mr McCulloch has presided at a number of major planning inquiries throughout Scotland, including the inquiries into the Duntanlich barites mine, the Scotland-Northern Ireland electricity interconnector and the Westfield combined cycle gas turbine and clean coal technology plant.

Last year, the planning directorate dealt with a total of 1,065 planning permission appeals, 121 planning enforcement appeals, as well as five local plan inquiries.



The full article contains 752 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 10 March 2008 9:57 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Donald Trump
 
1

britsout,

camelon 11/03/2008 00:54:21
look youre not going to "get" wee eck ,but you might scupper inward investment even then it still wont make wee eck look bad . it just makes you look small. understand ? no?
2

Highland Mighty,

11/03/2008 00:55:55
This whole episode has been a farce and it's all the SNP's fault with their "calling it in...no....yes....no.....no, we'll have a drawn-out and expensice public inquiry instead".

This will pretty much kill off any chance of such a major investment opportunity in the future.
3

donald,

glasgow 11/03/2008 07:44:39
This is taking nearly as long as Buchanan Street pedestrianisation in Glasgow, or the temporary traffic lights at Loch Lomond.
4

Jock 107,

11/03/2008 08:00:44
#8 SLEA ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.... yawn
5

Gdgy,

dundy 11/03/2008 08:23:20
I suppose the SNP will limit the inquiry to make sure that their "involvement" is hidden...until it is allowed to go through and they will take the credit....
6

subrosa,

11/03/2008 08:27:07
# 11 Where's your evidence? Are you Duncan McNeil's drinking pal?
7

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 09:05:29
7

Aye yer right for once it really is a farce.
The lib dems are f*cking up a massive inward investment project in order to play party politics and take the focus away from Labours illegal shenanagans.
8

radical theologian,

california 11/03/2008 09:24:19
I hope Donald Trump doesn't read these columns and comments, or he will really wonder what sort of zoo the north-east of Scotland is.
9

haggis 10,

11/03/2008 09:39:40
What scots need including me is more balls "GOLF BALLS"
10

haggis 10,

Capital City of Scotland 11/03/2008 10:02:13
What we have here is the Auld Establishment Tories lamenting the passing of "their god given right to shoot grouse and pesants on their god given land nothing to do with wildlife. The Tories dont Gie a hoot about The Barrell throated warbler or the lesser cross-eyed yellow tailed chuff.Good riddance to bad rubbish!!!!
11

tassiestag,

rosebery 11/03/2008 10:30:36
the way the yankee dollar is going trump wont have a billion pounds by then..........good thing to.
12

Nomada,

11/03/2008 11:09:31
Clarry - I think your medicine has worn off. Try another spoonful, and lie down in a dark room for an hour.

I hope you give evidence at the PLI - two sentences of your reasoned arguments as above and elswhere should sink the plan for ever.
13

Number 6,

Germany 11/03/2008 11:31:39
#7 So typical, "it's all the snp 's fault" whine whine whine. Every expert in the field is puzzled that this is
dragging on so long. The desperation to pin something on the SNP is laughable, and making the anti inward investment mob look even more pathetic than usual.

Trump has already declared you won't get rid of him like this, he's used to dealing with the "Rent a mob".

This enquirey will reveal that nothing untoward has gone on between the SNP and trump. Only a realisation that this investment is vital to the area, as we would be waiting for ever for similar investment from liarbour. So gnash your teeth, pullout what's left of your hair, sit back and watch this whole thing blow up in your face. NOT GUILTY M'LUD.
14

Mora,

11/03/2008 11:45:40
let Trump go "some place else"
15

Resolutions,

11/03/2008 12:14:33
#23 What medicine? Did anyone actually presribe something for this chump?

Actually their 'evidence' might be quite entertaining trying to justify the 'right development, in the right place with the right infrastructure and the right buildings fitting in with area, the right sort of housing to meet the right demand in the right place, and working with the right people with the right transport in and out! Not to mention attracting the right sort of tourist with their devalued greenbacks to spent on the right imported trash from the right place with the right carbon footprint'

Hopefully this inquiry will establish if this really is the right development for the NE and Scotland, by taking the insane hype out of it all.(And in the meantime let us hope that the dollar continues to plummet as the funding looks increasingly dodgy!)
16

Doh,

11/03/2008 12:41:20
#24 Number6

The inquiry is not to determine if the SNP behaved wrongly in respect to the Trump application.

The inquiry is to determine if the application should be approved.

Swinney didnt have the guts to approve it, so it has been delayed by SNP intransigence over a multi trillion
dollar investment.

Why it takes so long to even start the inquiry stuns me. Why not start month, give all the interested parties 4 weeks notice, and let it run for one week.

Clarry can maybe clarify this for us.
17

Miss H,

11/03/2008 12:51:38
7 You don't really believe that anyone believes you believe that do you?

We all know who is to blame for this.

18

Resolutions,

11/03/2008 12:57:32
#27 Do not encourage them!

Enough of this ranting

Timing is more than likely determined by the availablity of the 'legal and other staff' required. They have other jobs you know. They are not sitting on their doups twiddling their thumbs waiting for an Inquiry to come along!
19

Doh,

11/03/2008 14:12:17
#29 Res,

Good point.

Can we not use contractors? Possibly based abroad? I suspect there are lots of legal "restrictive practices" that stop us getting say an Indian judge to adjudicate this inquiry.
20

Neil,

Glasgow 11/03/2008 14:13:55
If there are no further delays this thing will only have been delayed by 3 years. Not open for business for 3 years, jobs 3 years late & £360 taxes forever gone. And this is the best option.
21

Resolutions,

11/03/2008 14:56:04
#31 Not sure that jobs on the minimum wage and most of them not going to local folk anyway are worth waiting for.

You call that business?

#30 Do not think that they actually are up in Scottish Law, but they may get the trains running on time!
22

Marco (Drachen),

Italy 11/03/2008 15:13:54
Similar investmets was done in Sardegna here in Italy.
Sardegna's ppl never seen a penny for having the privilege to lose access to their beaches.
I speak as a tourist: if i wanna visit Scotland, i wanna see SCOTLAND, not the Trump's hotels etc.

btw... imho you are very optimistic if u think that ppl in Abeerdenshire can improve their average life-style with Trump.
i think the biz is, as always, for very few ppl.
23

Number 6,

Germany 11/03/2008 15:48:18
#32 Jobs on the minimum wage ?
Most not going to local folk ?

What are you havering on about man ?. Where do you
people get this garbage ?

#27 What evidence do you think they will consider before approving / rejecting this proposal, considering the overwhelming support for it what will
they be considering. Personally I think it's a last chance to check nothing labour like went on, and if not then all systems go !.
24

Old Tom,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 16:20:57
Number 6

Read post 26 (Resolutions).

That's the kind of issues an inquiry will consider. The existence of overwhelming local support does not hold much weight (in an inquiry) because the masses are not yet fully informed. That's the point of the inquiry - to tone down the polarized views of the two extreme points and provide a balanced and independent review.
25

brownlie,

Glasgow 11/03/2008 16:38:15
32 Resolution
Where do you get your information regarding wages and jobs from that enables you to make sweeping statements regarding minimum wages and jobs not going to locals? Do you know how many jobs are generated locally by an empty beach? Do you know whether the locals would prefer to be on benefits rather than employment. Do you know the area at all or do you visit empty beaches to pick up rubbish once a year?
26

mobocaster,

Aberdeen 11/03/2008 17:05:37
10:35pm tonight BBC1

"Taking-on Trump"

Invites to the prelim meeting arrived this morning.
27

Resolutions,

11/03/2008 17:05:54
Actually folks, if you knew the area, you would know that there is not an unemployment problem. Most jobs in a development of this kind are occupied by 'foreign labour' anywhere in Scotland. And these are minimum wage jobs. Start thinking about what sort of jobs they are and what sort of wages they command - anywhere!

As for building it - this area and yes I am in the NE, a great many of the construction workers are not using the Doric! It sounds more like Eastern European to me!

As for Brownlie of Glasgow would you work on a NE beach on a good easterly or a haar? And the Beach is not that empty unless you've got in mind miles of stupid brollies and comatose bodies(because of the cold!!!)

Overwhelming screaming ill-informed people should start asking some questions about whether this is actually the right sort of development in the right area which is of benefit to the country. They might gain some credibility then.
28

brownlie,

11/03/2008 17:35:06
That is actually the non-sequential answer I expected. At my golf club the Head-greenkeeper and his greenkeepers earn much more than the minimum wage. There is no reason to think that Trump would be able to recruit staff paying less than that. Instead of sweeping generalisations could you perhaps answer the questions raised?
29

Resolutions,

11/03/2008 18:30:40
Brownlie
The jobs in a resort are of the low paid variety and you know that fine. Hotel jobs!

And how much do you pay to belong to your golf club? Has it got an hotel and holiday houses(requiring services) on it not too mention a luxury home development?

And these service jobs are in the majority in any resort complex of this type.

And where do you think the stuff required to run the complex is to come from?

That surely is a question for an inquiry. As are just how many jobs will be created and of what type?

I think it is called value for money.
30

brownlie,

Glasgow 11/03/2008 19:00:39
You have'nt answered the question regarding locals and their attitude. They all seem to be in favour. It is easy to be critical from afar. Work out how much the Augusta Georgia Masters generates for the local economy and contrast that with the revenue raised from an empty beach.
31

Resolutions,

11/03/2008 20:00:46
You cannot compare the Augusta Masters with Balmedie you chump!

How do you know ALL the locals are so much in favour - hearsay?

There has not been a proper poll conducted.

And the attitude should not enter into this anyway as they are reacting rather than thinking HARD FACTS which need to be answered, rather like you.

Perhaps you should look at the fact that hotel prices in Aberdeen area are the highest in Europe (and they struggle for staff)? High prices smacks of business market to me and not an expanding tourist trade -and the NE has an awful lot more to offer than beaches!
32

Jock H. the Republic of Scotland,

Arvada,Colorado,USA. 11/03/2008 20:12:52
Not many people would want to invest 1bn pounds in Scotland, give the guy a break, it will be good for the local and national economy, also it will bring more tourists to the country,it can only be a win win situation, wake up Scotland its time to move into a modern society,look at the new Celtic Tiger to your west, it did not take them long, you can do the same ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
33

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 11/03/2008 20:16:54
It fairly looks like oor Donal' his ither fechts stateside to think aboot onywye!

A judge said on Thursday he would decide Monday whether to grant a Nassau civic leader's request to move a state hearing on the Trump on the Ocean project in Jones Beach from Westchester to Long Island.

www.newsday.com/news/local/nassau/ny-litrum0101,0,1474031.story
34

geriatric swampi,

Aberdeen 11/03/2008 20:30:03
This is not just about a golf course.There is huge damage to the natural environment,public access issues,a disneyland hotel construction and breaches of national and Aberdeenshire policies,not to mention the new housing estate.Anyone who plays golf on the N.E.Coast as I do also knows the problems with haar.
35

haggis 10,

11/03/2008 20:30:10
What about highly productive shooting ranges for grouse and a certificate to prove you shot it in the Highlands of "Scatland".Ideal for tourists!
36

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 11/03/2008 20:35:16
Theres more -

Donald Trump says he will make a second attempt to get a key approval that would allow him to move ahead with his proposed restaurant and catering facility at Jones Beach.

After representatives of the developer and two state agencies met for more than three hours at Bear Mountain State Park Tuesday, Trump and state park officials agreed a new application will be filed with the state Department of State for a variance for Trump on the Ocean.

The decision follows the rejection last week by a Department of State review board of a variance request for a 26,710-square-foot basement. The state building code does not allow basements in a floodplain.
37

brownlie,

glasgow 11/03/2008 20:59:09
42 Resolutions:
I think you're betraying your origins by using an expression like "you chump".
Trump has stated his intention of building a world class golf course. That is why you can compare with Augusta. I don't follow your basis for assuming that you are the only possessor of hard facts which you manage to successful disguise as generalisation. You seem to be able to tell the locals what is could for them with no consultation, whatsoever.

A first-class hotel would not be first class for long by only employing indivuals on the minimum wage. Apart from anything else think of the benefit to the local economy as I cannot imagine that the hotel and the occupants of the proposed housing will be importing all their essentials - do you?
38

Old Tom,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 21:18:53
brownlie

"Trump has stated his intention of building a world class golf course. That is why you can compare with Augusta."

You're basing your argument on Trumps word that he will build the worlds greatest golf course. History tells us this is not the wisest of moves (take a quick look at some of his previous projects and see how they have gone sour or not lived up to the hype).

He's a developer, and any developer will tell you what you want to hear in the hope that enough people will buy in to it and the application is passed.
39

brownlie,

glasgow 11/03/2008 21:58:31
Old Tom,I think one thing you can truly say about Trump is that he would not like to be associated with anything but the best. Unfortunately, I don't think I'll ever be able to play his course and certainly not Augusta. Incidentally I like your course at Askernish!
40

Amparo de Glasgow,

11/03/2008 22:22:15
Let's face it Trump will get his way.

His scaremongering tactics
... talking to
... Iain Paisley junior
... in N.Ireland
... is just a diversion
41

Robert,

Kirriemuir 11/03/2008 22:23:03
It is situations such as this where democracy fails; when it pays too much attention to the minority! All that we Scots can boast of is porridge, tartan, and bagpipes and, I almost forgot, the Old Course! Let us have something exciting, modern, and world-beating for a change, and send the bulldozers over that peasant farmers land who is being nothing more than attention-seeking like many of our country's Cinderfellas! He does not seem to realise that he is about to be a loser (once again)! Gawd bless his old cotton socks!

I wonder how a patch of wasteland suddenly became 'environmentaaly sensitive'?
42

Kitti Kat,

11/03/2008 22:52:46
I sincerely hope that Trump doesn't get his way, but I'm sure he will, politics and gifts to those politicians who will approve it. We are seeing a similar situation near where I reside. The people protest but the guys with the money always seem to win. I can see a golf course and maybe one hotel but don't let the area become a place where only the rich can go. If he gets his way, you won't be able to afford to buy property in your own area. Just take a look at Atlantic City, NJ>
43

overton,

balmedie 11/03/2008 23:20:59
Just watched the BBC prog and note that they are yet again promoting the extremist minority view.
Sickening to see old Marcus Humphries and Martin Ford close up again as clearly their relegation to the land fill site of history in not quite complete yet.
I hope that the enquiry result recommends the correct and majority view and supports the economic development of Menie as defined by the Trump Organisation in its entirety.
Please save us from the sinister Don and Micky and the hypocracy that is Sustainable Aberdeenshire.


44

mobocaster,

Aberdeen 11/03/2008 23:30:50
Did you also note the lies, half-truths & pure bluster from the Trump camp?

eg

Once again, a clear demonstration of why they should not be permitted to site their speculative, fake-baronial piles on some of our most sensitive land.

1: Read the fairhurst report on how they actually propose to stabilise the dunes.

2: The amount to be "invested" - notice how it doubled from one overinflated figure to another.

3: Trump's success - No mention of his double bankruptcy & the hundreds of smaller investors & contractors left in the lurch.

...
45

geriatric swampi,

Aberdeen 11/03/2008 23:31:48
#52- The patch of "Wasteland" as you descibe it has been an SSSI for a number of years.SSSI's are not handed out like sweeties.Describing it as wastleland shows your lack of knowledge of the Balmedie coastline.
The dunes system there is superb hence the reason for it being an SSSI.
#54 -Money will be made if this goes ahead. Watch it all disappear across the "pond"
46

Resolutions,

11/03/2008 23:41:14
Trumps association with everything that is the best, seems distinctly tarnished over the pond.

Re 'Masters style' competitions - as we already have St Andrews, Carnoustie, Turnberry, Nairn, Troon - we have world class links courses- excellent ones at that-and a good number of other links courses which are not far off world standard, let's get this in proportion. The chances of Trump securing a world class competition in the circuit here are virtually nil as there is too much world class and proven competition from established courses. These competitions are 'secured' many years in advance too.
And there are several other courses in development in Scotland and the NE as well so he has even less chance of getting on the circuit.
If you want to secure this 'development', you had better start giving CONCRETE evidence of the benefits to the area and not the 'hype'. That is excellent, but it does not build or sustain success for business.
47

Resolutions,

11/03/2008 23:45:12
#55 Did they actually give details of how the investment was to be done? Like style of jobs etc

(Sorry did not see programme as interrupted by family matters)
48

BrianHill,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 23:57:05
Let's hope it's done and dusted quickly before the Trump billion walks over the water to Ireland. Scotland is looking backward enough in the eyes of the world without us dragging this embarrassment out.
49

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 12/03/2008 00:07:54
56 geriatric swampi

It is a patch of wasteland. Just like the one further down the coast at Blackdog which is being filled with waste. Nobody protesting there though. No 'Trump' figure involved in that.

If you've lived in the NE for a wee while, you'll know that no-one ever goes to Menie. Except, of course, the geese to find food, but not where they nest. That's over in the real part of the SSSI at Forvie Sands. And as far as I know, they'd be better staying there, because they get slaughtered at Menie, for sport nonetheless. Now wouldn't a more compassionate sport be golf?
50

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 12/03/2008 00:14:40
54 Overton.

Totally agree. The publicity-seeking minority view has always been over-represented. We just need to make sure that the majority view is over-represented at the public inquiry in June TBC. But first at the pre-inquiry meeting at 1.00 pm on Wednesday 26 March 2008 within the Crombie Suite, Aberdeen Exhibition and Conference Centre, Bridge of Don, Aberdeen.
51

mobocaster,

12/03/2008 00:17:09
#57 Well said! These issues have been very poorly explored so far. Major golf courses are struggling all over the country & the one thing the industry seems to agree on is that they don't really need another large scheme.

Similarly, all the main championships are rostered around 12 years ahead & any proposed course of Trump's won't even go up for consideration till it is built & established - so the earliest any championship might come there as about 20 years hence. More pie in the sky IMO.

Turnberry is still up for sale meantime & it offers much of what he wants, at a much cheaper price & with a place on the championship roster to-boot. Why can't he go there?

No, the economic/buisness case presented so far is quite laughable. No more than a promise of magic beans - It can be looked-up on the Trump Golf Scotland website or on the planning application at Aberdeenshire if you are interested.
52

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 12/03/2008 00:17:59
51 Amparo de Glasgow said:
"Let's face it Trump will get his way.
His scaremongering tactics
... talking to
... Iain Paisley junior
... in N.Ireland
... is just a diversion"

Amparo, we're not scared, we're delighted. Bring it on.
53

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 12/03/2008 00:22:39
49 Old Tom said:

"He's a developer, and any developer will tell you what you want to hear in the hope that enough people will buy in to it and the application is passed."

You're right Old Tom, we don't want anybody developing anything. We don't want any investment. Who do these developers think they are, buying land, developing it, creating wealth in Scotland. How dare they!
54

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 12/03/2008 00:37:39
62 mobocaster

Are Gleneagles and Loch Lomond struggling?

Have you considered that the larger area in question is at the bottom of the tourism figures in Scotland? That means potential un-exploited opportunity.

Have you considered the impact of three major golf developments/resorts in succession in the NE - two already through planning. Ever heard of Jack Nicklaus and Paul Lawrie who are fronting and designing the other two developments?

Join that up with the Trump development and the area becomes a 'world golf destination'.

These developments will also drive the severely-lacking hotel business in the area where millions are being lost every year because of lack of rooms.

Have you considered that Aberdeen Airport is one of the fastest growing in the country and that a runway extension is being completed next year for long haul flights?

Lots of things to weigh up mobocaster.
55

Nomada,

12/03/2008 07:44:38
Clarry #75 - I have told you before that you are mixing me up with someone else. I am not (and never have been) on any LA committee; I have never been an elected councillor anywhere; and I am not on medication.

And if you are going to insult me, at least get my pseudonym correct.
56

Old Tom,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 07:54:29
64 Andrew BOD,

Calm down and re-read my post.

I didn't say that there should be no investment in Scotland or even that this project shouldn't go ahead - just that we should be cautious when dealing with an organisation like Trumps. If the inquiry confirms all of his claims then good luck to him but right now you are blindly backing a guy with a track record of bending the truth and walking over the people who initially backed him.
57

A Crofter,

Western Isles 12/03/2008 09:02:52
Clarry - If "Aberdeen is crying out for hotel room" (#66 in your succession of drunken rants), would it not be a good idea to build more hotels in Aberdeen?
58

A Crofter,

Western Isles 12/03/2008 11:14:21
Why don't you go and find some work, Clarry?

Give your keyboard a rest, and stop monopolising these forums!
59

britsout,

camelon 12/03/2008 16:11:54
crofter ? incomer ? all the locals seem to want it but people from the south of england seem to demand the right to countermand it . local democracy is about locals having their say, if you come to live in another country it would be nice if you let the people you have come to stay amongst, have a say, without a constant whiney chorus that seems to attempt to drown them out. i mean dont you have beaches under threat in england . r s p b ,etc lack legitimacy precisely because they speak and think in a way that doesnt resonate in aberdeenshire
60

Resolutions,

12/03/2008 18:53:50
#83 Crofter How I agree!

#Clary too often to be bothered identifying!

You are the one who likes to hear your tummy rumble!
Last time I was in an Aberdeen hotel the staff were Aussies (on working holidays) and Eastern Europeans and other folk have remarked exactly the same!

And whether you like it or not, you are not the spokesperson for the area(self appointed). Sugggest you calm down and see if you can actually produce a cast iron proved case that this development is appropriate for the area and Scotland.

And when you are at it, perhaps you could take a course in manners. You do nothing to 'sell' the NE as open for business. There are many people who know the NE a lot better than you do - old established families from business etc who look at things in a canny way and assess their worth. Listen to them!
61

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 12/03/2008 23:37:43
85 Resolutions

What are you talking about?
Aside from your insults to Clarry, you offer nothing of any substance on this subject.

What has Eastern European / Aussie workers got to do with lack of hotel space in Aberdeen? Nothing.

Why does Clarry have to present you with a 'cast iron proved case' on the appropriateness of the development? It's for the radical protesters to have a cast iron proved economic case against the development. So far, they have come up with nothing except the character assassination of Trump and a strange argument for economic regression instead of growth.

And your last part about 'old established families from business'. What are you talking about? Sounds like the mafia or something. Please be a bit more specific.

You'll need to put more meat-on-the-bones on this topic if people are going to take you seriously. In spite of Clarry's flamboyant style, she has put forward a number of arguments which are much more substantive than opponents' posts, none have been challenged thus far.
62

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen...city without amenities 13/03/2008 14:12:42
Looks like Paul Lawrie's course at Blairs will have a slightly less rocky passage...Infra have approved it, now goes to full council.

With the city cooncil in - err, a little difficulty - let's have Hazlehead developed by Brian Hendry (backed by Tom Watson) to join Jack's course at Ury AND then get DT's approved.

Could get someone to buy Auchmill while we're at it.
63

mobocaster,

Aberdeen 13/03/2008 14:14:49
Andrew - #65.

Gleaneagles & Loch Lomond are amongst the few major courses not struggling. Turnberry, Carnoustie, Cardrona & even some courses within the St Andrews complex (notably Kingsbarns & St Andrews Bay)have all either changed hands because they were unviable or indicated some other form of problem recently. Whilst other courses are concerned about the overall downturn.

Yes, well aware of those other courses & how they could be important & both have significantly fewer issues over development.

I'm not convinced that golf or indeed any aspect of US-centric tourism is a stable base for any major part of the Scottish economy. They are a fickle lot at best. Golf itself is also not that big a thing in the overall sphere of Scottish Tourism, despite its totally disproportionate level of state spending (10x increase in the last 10-15 years)

Nor am I convinced that a devlopment whose ethos harks back to the days of Victorian exploitation & patronage is a fit image for a modern Scotland to project. Most of us stopped tugging our forelocks longsince.

Equally, I don't think that we have anything to fear over the tantrums of a stroppy brat developer & if he is to be allowed to develop anything here, he should be kept on a short rein & well away from our sensitive sites. Whilst being made to jump through hoops to demonstrate that we are really going to see some benifit. eg, Trump's current Atlanta scheme has had to guarantee minimum local employment levels & a minimum annual spend in the local area before it can even proceed to planning approval.

Never mind that this looks much more of a property bubble instead of golf & even Trump's Architects are very big on using golf to drive property development.

eg: http://invgolf.com/bio_scholl_2005.htm

64

mobocaster,

Aberdeen 13/03/2008 14:19:31
Clarry - #66

The reported 60/40 occupancy rate is a far cry from any sort of hotel "crisis" Maybe a cause for concern but it in no way justifies proves a need for Trump's scheme. Development on an appropriate scale serving areas all round the city would seem more sensible to me?

As for Trump's "5-stars," not all is what it seems there:

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2005/10/trumps-five-star-scam-1.php

Quote - "According to a former Trump employee, "Everyone knows Joey's reputation. If you believe that the Five Star Diamond is based on any real or honest appraisal of a restaurant, you're crazy."

Maybe we too can expect a visit from Mr Joey No Socks?

Nope, the decision was taken properly, by a properly structured empowered committee. The minutes are online to peruse. Trump had his chance there.

If the climate of debate/argument around does not demonstrate a clear mandate for negotiation/accomodation from Trump, I don't know what does?


Quote - "This whole affair was orchestrated by three people, Don Banks, Mickey Foote and Martin Forbes because they were only offered market value for their properties and the wanted more. "

Even if that was the case (which I doubt), that is just a normal fact of business life & it is entirely up to them who they sell to, when & for how much. Nothing can be inferred or made out of it at all.
65

mobocaster,

Aberdeen 13/03/2008 14:20:53
Clarry - #80.

Wrong.

These are the Trump's designers - Wimberly Alison Tong & Goo. A US-based leisure & casino specialist.

http://www.watg.com/?pageID=BDE4E0E9-3048-78A8-DB6B1EA36A4FBB06

Jenkins & Marr are simply acting as local agents FTM & all the design drawings on the Aberdeenshire submission are dual-stamped to both firms.

Although you can probably assume there will be an understanding that J&M will take-on a larger role if the scheme goes ahead.

The Golf courses are to be designed by Martin Hawtree

http://www.trumpgolfscotland.com/press_kit/press_kit.asp

http://www.hawtree.co.uk/home_content.html#history

Looks like Fairhurst are currently acting as agents/consultants for this.

66

mobocaster,

Aberdeen 13/03/2008 21:22:28
Clarry - #

The hotel "crisis" that you allude to - which has been all-too conviently hitting the headlines here in the last few weeks.

We accomodate several thousand people a year here & rarely have a significant problem. Certainly not at the end of the market Trump is aiming for. Now if he proposed some quantity of affordable roomspace, that might be a different matter? Either way this is still no justification for tearing-up sensitive land where a suitable alternative exists.

Yes, don't you think facts are fairly important? Especially considering the paucity of information from the Trump camp? Anyway, if he relies on a bunch of placemen for his "stars," that surely says quite a lot about the quality of his accomodation?

Anything but - Go read the minutes. I don't know why you are so insistant about the clearly established position of a normal part of the planning process for large projects. Not even Aberdeenshire could find any evidence of misconduct there. I'll bet they tried tho?

Have you not noticed that most of the hotels you cite have been lurching from one financial crisis to another for the last 30-odd years? going relentlessly downmarket each time in order to stave-off yet another bankruptcy. A close relative did the dirty on the failing finances of Peebles Hydro back in the 70's. The firm he was a client of at the time did little better when they took-over. The main problem with the old-style hydros is they were built for people from another age but none of them are on the scale of Trump's modern dinosaur-in-waiting.

Even the very best of those hotels have had their hard times. Gleneagles itself was toiling when Diageo took over.

I would hope anyone holding an opinion, for or against has formed it on some sort of factual basis, rather than the purely pro-Prump guff presented by the EE & the like.

Where have I said that I'm entirely opposed to development? Or even Trump himself (with some safeguards/qualifications)?
67

mobocaster,

Aberdeen 13/03/2008 21:28:01
97

Have I said a great deal about climate change?

Don't think so?

I agree that there is much still to be proved there.
68

mobocaster,

Aberdeen 13/03/2008 21:39:06
#100

I don't think arrogance comes into it as I'm not pretending to speak for anyone other than myself?

Equally, I don't think this will do anything for the common good, unless we get some concrete safeguards built in to the deal, instead of the dunes. Let's see if the legal status of this enquiry can compel Trump into laying some more cards on the table?

I'm also well aware of the other golf proposals here & I was even standing right alongside Sorial & his partner/PA at a meeting concerning one of them recently.

I was polite, he was made about as welcome as a fart in a lift.
69

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 13/03/2008 22:44:58
99 Mobocaster says.....
"Where have I said that I'm entirely opposed to development? Or even Trump himself (with some safeguards/qualifications)?"

In your several thousand words or so, where have you said you are in FAVOUR of development. Nowhere.


And...
"The hotel "crisis" that you allude to - which has been all-too conviently hitting the headlines here in the last few weeks."

Does that mean Clarry made it up and it got into the news? Wake up Mobo, there is a real crisis. In my own business, colleagues and clients are having to get accommodation in Inverurie and Banchory to do business in Aberdeen. During the last oil exhibition, the city had to hire a cruise liner docked at Peterhead, so that visitors from overseas could go to the exhibition - how embarrassing.


And from 93...
"Gleaneagles & Loch Lomond are amongst the few major courses not struggling."

An admission perhaps. Any reason why they're not struggling? Because they look at the whole package instead of relying purely on the merits and image of the course. Clearly that's what the 3 developments are proposing to do here.


Also from 93...

"Equally, I don't think that we have anything to fear over the tantrums of a stroppy brat developer & if he is to be allowed to develop anything here, he should be kept on a short rein & well away from our sensitive sites. Whilst being made to jump through hoops to demonstrate that we are really going to see some benifit."

I can see that you've got a really good grasp of commerce and investment here. Sure you don't chair a business development board or something? I'll have to try that one with my potential clients - I'm sure they'll like jumping through hoops before they dish out £1 billion pounds of investment to improve my business. Get a grip Mobo.


And from 101...

"I would hope anyone holding an opinion, for or against has formed it on some sort of factual basis, rather than the purely pro-Prump guff presented by the EE
70

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 13/03/2008 22:48:30
Mobocaster

Last points again:

And from 101...

"I would hope anyone holding an opinion, for or against has formed it on some sort of factual basis, rather than the purely pro-Prump guff presented by the EE & the like."

The punters in the NE wrote to their local newspaper as well as their MSPs/ MPs/ Councillors in their thousands. If you'd care to read past the headlines you'd see plenty of opinion-based fact. I read opinion both for and against, and still do. Clearly, your blinkers stopped you from reading anything.


From 103...

"Equally, I don't think this will do anything for the common good, unless we get some concrete safeguards built in to the deal, instead of the dunes. Let's see if the legal status of this enquiry can compel Trump into laying some more cards on the table?"

This paragraph makes no sense in any context. What are you on about? Trump has laid plenty cards on the table. IT'S TIME FOR US TO LAY OUR CARDS ON THE TABLE.


71

mobocaster,

Aberdeen 13/03/2008 23:45:18
Andrew #104

From the beginning. I don't think I have disagreed that a large part of the Trump holding at Menie may be suitable for development but I don't think the current proposal is suitable. For reasons amply discussed before.

No, it hit the news & at an all too convenient time IMO. Which inevitably connected the interests. As well as the Director of the Ex-Centre's (?) ham-fisted plea for "A large hotel north of the city" ...erm?

No, I agree the 60/40 rate for the area is a cause for concern but I've never heard a hotelier do anything but gloat at the rates they could get here until now - I've done my stint in Hospitality as well BTW. That however also raises questions about the very way we do business but others can take-up that one if they want.

I read much of the press as well & I'd contend the overall tone of reporting & its presentation, in certain titles, was highly biased. Much of the opinion was just that, non-factual. I'll agree other titles were fairer but they are not the most read/cited here.

Trump is clearly more than interested in this place & his back is to the wall at home. That puts us in an excellent negotiating position & it is no more than he is used to back home & he has made significant consessions on environmental issues elsewhere.

No, Trump has gien us the bare minimum, with the shortest timescale he can get away with & current events have only served to halt the detailed discussion & revision that normally goes hand in hand with major applications.
72

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 31/03/2008 18:29:06
#8 - excuse me the cllrs that voted it down included two snps as well as a tory vice chair so get your facts right - facts, oh I forgot you gNATS dont know what they are!

 

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