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Is Scotland really closed for business?



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Published Date: 01 March 2008
WHEN he was piped off his private jet on to a red carpet on his visit to Scotland two years ago, billionaire developer Donald Trump would have been forgiven for thinking his scheme for the country was in the bag.
Two years later, the plan to build a £1 billion golf-course development on a spectacular stretch of dunes at the Menie Estate near Aberdeen is mired in the planning process with no sign of an ending. And this weekend, as Trump's temper boils over, s
enior business leaders are agreeing with the flamboyant entrepreneur that Scotland's reputation as a place to invest is on the line.

Fears that Trump will pull the plug on the development are rising after he launched a stinging attack on the nation's planning process, claiming that it sends the message that Scotland is closed for business. He also claimed he already knew of businesses that had withdrawn from Scotland because of the lengthy time it took to get planning approval.

But there are also those that believe Trump has overstepped the mark with his criticism and that he should allow the plans to take their natural course.

One source at Scottish Enterprise said Trump's claims were well wide of the mark and there was no evidence to suggest inward investment was suffering. And a member of Sustainable Aberdeenshire, a pressure group lobbying to halt the Trump development, said the tycoon was speaking "nonsense" and accused him of attempting to "bully" his way to success.

Trump launched his latest threat to abandon his £1 billion golf-resort development after the government ordered a public inquiry into his plans to build Scotland's largest ever golf, leisure and housing-development resort on an environmentally sensitive stretch of Aberdeenshire coastline.

It means it could now be the end of the year at the earliest before Trump finally learns the fate of his plans, and he admitted he was "losing spirit" as result of the delay in reaching a resolution of the planning process.

He said: "I am committed to it for now. If the process takes too long, I'll really have no choice but to go someplace else. I don't mind the public hearing, in fact I think it's a positive thing as long as it can go quickly. But if it doesn't go fairly quickly, it just doesn't make sense to hang in."

Mr Trump said he was surprised that a project which enjoyed " a great public support" had to endure such a long planning process. He added: "I have one of the most popular developments in Scotland and yet we can't seem to get it approved. The sad part is, it is telling people not to invest in Scotland."

Asked whether it was already putting companies off investing in the country, he replied he knew of "investors that aren't going to Scotland because of it". But he refused to give specific details of any companies.

He also criticised the planning process. "It is too long," he claimed. "The process is too long and too unwieldy. If a change of the planning system comes of this, it will be a good thing."

His comments were echoed last night by George Sorial, the Trump executive in charge of the Menie project. He said: "Our commitment to the project is unwavering and we are mindful and respectful of the process, and if it has to be dragged out a few more months I think we are willing to do it."

Questioned about the potential impact the continuing delay could have on inward investment, he explained: "Any real- estate developer, whether they are in the United States, Europe, the Middle East, or Asia, will be watching what goes on in Scotland very carefully.

"Obviously, a developer like Mr Trump having the issues that we have now is a clear indication for developers that that's what they can expect in Scotland."

Trump's call for changes in the planning process was backed by Ian Armstrong, the North-east manager of the Scottish Council for Development and Industry (SCDI). He said: "In terms of the tools we've got in our box in Scotland to attract investment, the delays in the planning system are clearly a major concern. I don't think it helps."

Aberdeenshire Council's December decision to reject the plan, he said, had clearly "reverberated" around the world because of the publicity that the Trump name attracted in the global media. Mr Armstrong added: "I don't think that has done Scotland any favours in terms of how we are perceived as an investment location."

Geoff Runcie, the chief executive of Aberdeen and Grampian Chamber of Commerce, claimed there was not even a need for the application to go to a full inquiry. He declared:

"By any measure, this inquiry is not good for Scotland. But for me, I guess the positive side is that there is a real opportunity to demonstrate that even a public inquiry can be handled efficiently and timeously to deliver an early outcome."

Sources within the government's enterprise network, however, told The Scotsman that there was no evidence to suggest potential investors were pulling out or delaying projects because of the planning process. One source said: "Scotland remains a fantastic investment opportunity and we are working with a number of organisations keen to establish themselves here."

Stuart Housden, the director of RSPB Scotland – a major opponent of the Menie plans – claimed the current planning system worked for the vast majority of developers. He said: "Most developers do not have massive problems with their plans. But if developers expect that, instantly, everyone should roll over to suit them then they are going to be disappointed.

"All this stuff about Mr Trump going to Northern Ireland (to build a resort] is bluster. If he went there, he would have to go through a planning system even more convoluted than ours.

"His (way of doing developments appears to me to be, 'I decide what I want and everyone rolls over and agrees with me – or else'. And investors are not being driven away. There have been lots of other much less flamboyant figures who are coming to Scotland and investing here and getting approvals."

Mickey Foote, spokesman for Sustainable Aberdeenshire, was also critical of Trump's comments. He said: "Trump has no respect for due process. He's full of nonsense. He has taken a blustering, bumbling, bullying approach to this development."



PAISLEY JNR TO MEET TRUMP OFFICIALS

A NORTHERN Ireland politician is to meet Donald Trump's officials next month after uncertainty over the future of his plans for a luxury golf resort in Scotland.

Just days after he stepped down as a junior minister in the Stormont power sharing executive, Democratic Unionist Assembly member Ian Paisley Junior revealed his plan to travel to New York to meet with the Trump organisation.

The North Antrim MLA, whose father the Rev Ian Paisley met Donald Trump in New York last December as Stormont First Minister, confirmed he had spoken to a senior executive after Mr Trump expressed disappointment that a public inquiry was ordered into the £1 billion golf resort in Aberdeenshire.

Mr Paisley said: "I have spoken with the senior executive of the Trump organisation in New York and I've expressed to him my concern that their plans for development in Scotland have been set back by a public inquiry.

"I assured him that Northern Ireland is still an area open for business and would welcome representatives of the Trump organisation including Donald Trump at the Northern Ireland/USA investment conference in May.

"I intend to meet with Donald Trump and his team of executives later next month in New York and to be updated on the projects they are currently considering after the visit of the senior executives to Northern Ireland earlier this year."

Mr Paisley Jnr stressed that he was not trying to snatch the £1 billion investment from Scotland and George Sorial, a top Trump organisation aide, said it was not a case of one of the other.

He said: "It's been widely reported that it's either one or the other. That is not how we view things.

"Our plans for Scotland have to do with Scotland and our plans for Northern Ireland have to do with Northern Ireland, they are two different projects."









The full article contains 1388 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 02 March 2008 11:28 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Donald Trump
 
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Teofilio Cubillas,

Lima, Peru 01/03/2008 00:47:30
#1 I don't people are particularly bothered about a golf course (although that part of the country has plenty good ones already)- it's the hundreds of houses that the golf course is a smokescreen for that are the issue. As far as Trump complaining about Scottish planning laws, if the alternative is to have our country despoiled to the extent of much of the USA by unfettered billboards, car parks and malls, I know which I prefer.

#2, 3 Your medication has worn off. Put the tin foil hat back on and phone the Royal Ed ASAP.

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Teofilio Cubillas,

Lima, Peru 01/03/2008 00:48:26
Oh, and learn to spell paedophile.
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Resolutions,

01/03/2008 00:55:57
Dragonhead - In view of where you claim to be located, I do not think you have much claim to pass comments of this nature about Scotland. In a country where civilisation appears to be going backwards, where human rights are questionable and environmental issues are ignored.

As for Donald Trump - he appears to think by flashing his billions that a country will flop down and roll over to do his bidding. Sorry Donald, no country should and diplomacy is not one of your virtues. This MAY be a good scheme, but is it good for Scotland?
Try working with the people and the rules.

We do not have the vast wide spaces of the American continent to play with and as such our environment is vastly more important to us. Suggest a bit more listening might be in order.

I, for one, do not go loopy at the sight of a green back when actually they are not worth that much at present!
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Haggis, neeps 'n' tatties for me!,

01/03/2008 01:09:47
Annabel Goldie rocks!

She is the most intelligent speaker in Follyrood.

Salmond is a propagandist par excellence but Annabel Goldie actually has a profound grip and thinks clearly through the issues with a genuine desire to deliver quality services for the Scottish people.
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subrosa,

01/03/2008 01:18:39
Ah I see the pubs have closed.

The handling of this whole Trump business has been bad for Scotland. Worldwide we have a reputation of being 'dificult', 'disorganised' etc. Not good. Our planning laws need radically reviewed and I do hope the SNP get that done asap. Our agencies connected with planning applications need to waken up to the fact that the country is being run by people who care about Scotland now.
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Haggis, neeps 'n' tatties for me!,

01/03/2008 01:26:03
Go to bed, #15. Drink lots of water. All will be better in the morning.
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Rubbersbutnotrulers,

01/03/2008 01:38:40
Misogynists are a dying breed, thank goodness.

Scott Webb, thanks for all the vid links. Your Google Search facility is obviously faster than mine!
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Rubbersbutnotrulers,

01/03/2008 01:48:51
When is Hootsmon Enterprises going to clean up the poisonous threads here?

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Army-to-pull-Prince-out.3830676.jp
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Just an opinion,

USA 01/03/2008 03:10:42
There are merits in #1 and one or two others.
IF, you stick to the facts, Mr Trump is a megamillionaire who has made his fortune using other peoples money as he boasts in his book. 'Trump, The Art of the Deal'.
In the last couple of days here, he is off again with another mega golf course deal in another Country, all covered up, as one writer astutely observes, behind a veritable wall of millions and millions of profit from people who will build houses around it.
Now whether you are a Scot living somewhere else around the world does not preclude you from having an opinion on what is happening in Scotland.
Home is where the heart is, and Scotland does not need the Trump propoganda machine degenerating it's people simply because they are not going to roll over.
And, my final point to those who think his scheme is so wonderful, ask him if he is willing to just build the golf course, the greatest championship golf course in the history of golf, and on the land of the game's birth, and the rest of his absolut American B.S., if he will do it without the houses?
That will strip him of his love of the game in it's birthplace etc.
I take my hat of to him in this context,he is a master of the art of fragmentation, and he fills his pockets and laughs at the people who argue whilst he fills them.
He will probably get his development given that all Governments, of whatever persuasion, are always able to welcome a donation no matter what it takes to receive it.
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Alan Reid,

NZ 01/03/2008 04:13:19
35, Well put.
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Alan Reid,

NZ 01/03/2008 04:13:30
35, Well put.
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John Blackley,

Winter Garden, FL 01/03/2008 04:26:22
#35 - for the first time since I started reading the Scotsman I'm forced to say, "What he/she said!"

Well put.
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jross,

Erskine 01/03/2008 04:49:36
Why do you allow the ravings of a lunatic appear in these comments? Are they not screened?
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Beth Boyle,

Trumpstate, USA 01/03/2008 05:32:55
Scotland can be opned for business without giving away the store! What a stupid question. To play with Trump is to be a fool he is a snake oil salesman with a jet and an expensive suit. UuuuG kick the bloody scallywag back to NY.
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timbrusky,

Central Texas, USA 01/03/2008 05:52:52
Good Lord folks, this is none of my business, but I could'nt stop by without a comment. This man wants to bring a billion dollar plus development to your country, provide thousands of substaining year-to-year JOBS and make a world class golf facility that you should be proud of. What in the world are you folks thinking? TIM
44

Geoff,

sa 01/03/2008 06:07:05
On balance, I'm a free enterprise man, but the luxury golf course disease is the ugly side of capitalism at its best(worst?). These estates world wide(and there are lots of them here in South Africa) are about greed,power,vulgar wealth of the 'f*ck the poor' variety and,are enormously damaging to the environment. I would tell Trump to take a hike. There is enough entrepreneurial spirit and capital available in Scotland to create a well planned and environmentally sensitive scheme of this kind if Scotland really wants these green gin palaces.
For me they are symbols of excess.
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CASEY PURVIS,

WEST HILLS 01/03/2008 06:36:14
trump needs to shut up and stay out of scotland
casey purvis
usa
46

UrbanFox,

Edinburgh 01/03/2008 07:50:14
# 44. You are right, its none of your business.

Have you actually ever been to Scotland?

Try taking a trip to Edinburgh, easily the second wealthiest city in the UK ,and the sixth wealthiest in Europe.

We dont need Trump.

47

brownlie,

Glasgow 01/03/2008 07:57:39
I find it amazing that so many from the USA are concerned about a stretch of land in Scotland which is only visited occasionally by one man and his dog. I suspect that they have been no further than the Scottish borders. I also suspect that they are objecting to something that under a previous administration they would have welcomed. If they really are from the USA they will be aware of how much money is put into the local economy from the one a year Masters tournament in Alaska. Even if, as they claim, the houses were to be taken up by "foreigners" it would still be a tremendous boost to the local economy. I recall Jack McConnell, who tried desperately, and at no small cost, to get this scheme off the ground, stating how we needed to attract more people to Scotland. Donald Trump is, quite naturally, trying to make a profit. Do the objectors think that any investment in Scotland should be by people doomed to be failures. How much money did the Glib/Grab administration spend on attracting inward investment, only to find that after receiving grants, companies withdrew leaving only derelict sites and unemployment. I suspect that if Bill Gates wanted to build an ugly building on the site, as opposed to something that will enhance the landscape, he would be welcomed with open arms. If the Glib/Grab parties are really interested in Scotland they should be urging the Government to ensure that planning applications are speedily resolved to encourage inward investment and not, as the Aviemore debacle seems to be, stretched out for over ten years.
In saying all that I hope that Donald is careful when he goes to visit his mother's birth-place. That hairstyle and the proposed wind-farms could be an ecological disaster.
48

Argyll on line,

Argyll 01/03/2008 08:04:29
This situation was caused by by the incompetence of Aberdeenshire Council and the quite breathtaking self-seeking chicanery of the Fib Dems and Labour, inflicting their indigation at defeat on the new government.They are charlatans beyond belief who have done untold damage to Scotland.
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danielrober,

01/03/2008 08:17:39
There is a strong anti business element in Europe these days, mainly by people who are well off themseleves and do not wish new developments to happen.

Yet why not stick with this project Trump (sir), you'll make even more billions and probably have you course opened by the Royal Family. It will be fantastic, sir, Stick to your guns.

As for these 'Nay sayers' (old british for horse sh*t talkers), well most of them have no stake in the UK or Scotland at all. The best way to deal with these guys is too praise the lord and pass the lawyers.

They are already losing.
50

UrbanFox,

Edinburgh 01/03/2008 08:17:41
Perhaps the reason Trump wants to build a golf course and hotel at a windswept corner of Scotland was because he was black-balled for the Royal Burgess and told to just wait in the queue outside Tiger Lily by the doorman ?
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Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 01/03/2008 08:21:30
Repeat: look at the real motivation here. A housing scheme. Very few real, long lasting, high quality jobs.
Tell him where to put his gold!
52

TrueScot68,

Clydebank 01/03/2008 08:26:35
Why has this gone to a public inquiry?

The SNP called this in for a 'review' by Swinney so what happened with that?

Have they run away from this with all the bad press about their interference in local planning matters?
53

It's me!,

01/03/2008 08:39:10
"Fears that Trump will pull the plug on the development are rising after he launched a stinging attack on the nation's planning process, claiming that it sends the message that Scotland is closed for business".

It also sends out a message that Scotland will not be walked over no matter how big your bank balance is. The salivating by greedy business leaders should not allow the country to be sold off inappropriately.
54

UrbanFox,

01/03/2008 08:39:31
Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, Inverness (really buzzing). All prosperous cities. We dont need Trump.
55

brownlie,

on a deserted wind-swept beach. 01/03/2008 08:42:58
TrueScot:
In view of the sneers and sniping I think that the Government want to be as transparent as possible to demonstrate once and for all that no "sleaze" was involved. Let us hope that this is contagious and that all the other parties can demonstrate that not only are they above corruption but that no voter is in any doubt that they are.
56

Gdgy,

dundy 01/03/2008 08:52:56
"Is Scotland really closed for business?"

Of course not!
You just have to pay a memerbship fee to get in - brown envelopes to Wee Lec/Ugly Nicola/Soapy Swinney at Scottish Parliament, Edinburgh will get you in....
57

Steve,

Bo'ness 01/03/2008 08:57:10
If it makes Jack McConnell look good, Trump gets the 4 star treatment and nothing is said.

If it makes Salmond look good, Trump's officials are dragged over the Atlantic to appear as witnesses against him! For , wait for it...... "sleaze"! lol

This is so utterly transparent, and it wont be forgotten at the next election.

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Bob Christie,

01/03/2008 09:00:25
#57

Shome mishtake shurely! Brown enevelopes are usually intentionally sent to members of the Labour Party!
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Steve,

Bo'ness 01/03/2008 09:03:58
Unionists wont be happy until this development is cancelled. They just can not bare to see Scotland attracting investment under an SNP government.

An SNP government they said would chase money and investment away. It reveals them as the liars they are.
They don't care about Scotland, just about blackening Salmond's name, and getting their grubby hands back on the levers of power.
60

School Inspector,

Aberdeenshire 01/03/2008 09:14:47
Scotland is not closed for business but the processes for getting anything done up in this part of the word is tuchter-like ... if the original process was more transparent and less interfered with it would be an easier decision. But what a pathetic shambles. And, Yes, 900 $1 million houses using a Golf Course as an excuse did not help Donald Trumps cause!
61

inoui,

Bangkok 01/03/2008 09:24:54
C'mon Scotland. Get your act together. Business wise pretty poor. Destroying masses of natural landscape to build houses that Scots can't afford, eg Fife. Now making a mess of business/employment chances. This is not the only opportunity from foriegn investment in Scotland about to wander off due to inept decision makers.
62

WL,

livingston 01/03/2008 09:37:59
#62
That is exactly the Trump plan: destroying masses of natural landscape to build houses that Scots can't afford. Destroying a Site of Special Scientific Interest (including a sand dune system and protected wildlife site) to build a five-storey hotel, 950 holiday homes, 500 luxury homes and 36 luxury golf villas.
63

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 01/03/2008 09:40:24
#63 Masses? Have you even bothered to read the plan before jumping in with both feet?
64

morris,

edinburgh 01/03/2008 09:48:39
Someone wants to build housing in Scotland.That's bad is it? Thank God somebody wants to because under Labour, we built absolutely sod all!

Even where these are private housing well outwith the reach of most peoples income ,they are still houses, and if the locals do not object to the construction, why should you.I understand the need for conservation, and have been against many planing applications, where I live, but there are reasons of traffic management attached.The people of Aberdeenshire are the people who should decide what happens in Aberdeenshire,and according to the Press & Journal, there is almost unanimous approval for this to go ahead.
Why do the rest of you object to something which you dont even know the background to,apart from the pack of lies you read in certain so called newspapers which have been discredited even more than your views have!
65

Brigadier Mungo "Spliffer" McSporran Bufton-Tufton,

In an absolutely huge Mess, in Aberdeenshire 01/03/2008 09:49:31
Time for the ghastly American Trump apparition to take as lengthy a hike as his fat reptilian presence can manage, and spend the rest of his puff looking for a credible hairdresser, if not personal credibility.

BAH!!! Time for a swift (large) pink 'un, methinks....
66

morris,

edinburgh 01/03/2008 09:51:41
60 Steve,Bo'ness
67

morris,

edinburgh 01/03/2008 09:55:07
60 Steve,Bo'ness

Before this sends again I agree 100%

Its pretty obvious thats whats going on here
Quite pathetic behaviour form discredited parties who cannot handle their gravy train being taken away from them.Anybody who supports these parties invites comment against them.
68

McGinty,

01/03/2008 10:05:41
'Is Scotland really closed for business?' Is Trump qualified in Business Studies and Environmental Studies, not to mention the social aspects of the situation. Does he have any roots in the North-East and is he well versed in its culture? I doubt if he is the most objective commentator. By the same token, one could ask if America or his little world is open for justice? If he really cared about Scotland, he could be investing in areas such as engineering or manufacturing.
69

overton,

balmedie 01/03/2008 10:18:04
69 McGinty,

A development such as that proposed by the Trump Organisation will generate industry.
We here in Scotland care about the offer of £1billion to be invested and are grateful that we have been considered.
It is difficult to understand why this 'gift horse is being looked in the mouth'.
The Scottish Government have of course made a complete and utter pig's ear of the whole situation and why Mr Trump is still offering to invest after all the abuse that he has suffered at the hands of the Government and Aberdeenshire Councillors I don't know.
70

Neil,

Glasgow 01/03/2008 10:30:09
Trump first proposed this in April 2006. It looks like it will be 2009 at the earliest before he is allowed to start investing.

Anybody who says this is not a serious disincentive to investing in Scotland is either insane or wholly dishonest & using the "planning system" to enforce their Luddite agenda.
71

bogmon,

01/03/2008 10:30:25
Is that a trump or is it constipation?
72

Nikostratos,

01/03/2008 10:31:29
#60 Steve,

Quiet Wrong Steve if 'due process' is followed whatever the outcome is should be carried out.

The fact is Mr Swinney has called for a public inquiry as this has the potential to become a major embarrassment to the snp style of governance.
Mr Salmond has left this for Mr swinney to sort out although Salmonds fingerprints are all over the crime scene He (Mr swinney) is not going to carry the can for Alex if this application goes t#ts up.

And that is why this application has not been sanctioned by Mr Swinney. And that has no connection to any of your imaginary 'Unionist' plotting

73

overton,

aberdeen 01/03/2008 10:34:45
78 Nikostratos,

Do you want to clarify what you mean by 'crime scene'?
74

AntiPCman,

01/03/2008 10:42:58
Donald Trump was badly advised from the outset. He was also given the distinct impression from the outset by Mr. McConnel, CEO of Aberdeenshire Council, the Lord Provost of Aberdeen City, Jennifer Craw - Scottish Enterprise Grampian, the CEO of Aberdeen Chamber of Commerce, Alec Salmond some other worthies that he would get planning permission with very little problem. Unfortunately, none of these people are involved in the determination of planning and should not have given any assurances for something they were not able to deliver.

The planning process is not particularly slow in Scotland and is invariably held up by the lack of speed of response by the applicant's agent to requests for further information from the planning officers. This particular application was very speedy - too speedy in my opinion - coming to the Formartine Area Committee. It was a remarkable paper to that Committee in that it had virtually every page until the recommendation saying "No" to the application and was against every policy of Aberdeenshire Council except one. The 'one' was on the basis of economic development and is often over-ruled for enviromental or infrastructure reasons and requires considerable movement on the part of the applicant to be successful.

The key issue in all of this is that the applicant did not budge from his original application and negotiate to any extent. This is very unusual indeed and it is quite normal for an application to be turned down or deferred in order that the applicant is forced to come to the table to rengotiate the application. This did not happen and again I say that this is very unusual. Either the applicant is not serious or he feels that he has sufficient support on a committee for his application to succeed.

I will not dwell on the merits or demerits of the meeting that decided to turn down the application beyond saying that what happened is very normal indeed and was a correct process and is happening all over Scotland all the ti
75

The Strategist,

01/03/2008 10:45:16
Open for business? Yes but usually the wrong type..

We'll build a golf course but do we make golf balls or clubs here? We'll put up windfarms but never manufacture the turbines.

76

AntiPCman,

01/03/2008 10:45:59
I will not dwell on the merits or demerits of the meeting that decided to turn down the application beyond saying that what happened is very normal indeed and was a correct process and is happening all over Scotland all the time. Normally, it does not have such a media interest.

However, let us be clear, Mr. Trump was again badly advised and should have 'tweaked' the application by pulling a couple of golf holes off the SSSI, changed bits of the layout relating to the 500 residential houses and resubmitted the application on the following Monday after the meeting that turned down the application. This application would have been fast tracked as all the work had been done and would have been passed by yesterday. Let me remind you that SNH had an objection which they refused to take away on the original application which was not the gift of Aberdeenshire Council to give approval - it still had to go to Ministers because of SNH's objection - a point rarely mentioned by anybody.
Instead, Alec Salmond and others just as the excellent Jim McKinnon, were dragged into this issue and it will now be bogged down for months, probably to the end of 2008.
I would suggest that should George Sorial contact Aberdeenshire Council, he may be advised that a new revised application could be submitted this Monday and he would get planning permission in 3 months. Everyone seems to forget that this was an outline planning application and not a full which means the detail could be sorted when the full application comes in.

I am quite sure that if Donald Trump had been a woman, he would have listened to reason and been a little more cooperative.
77

Dane Bramage SNP Insider,

01/03/2008 10:47:22
Steve, # 58

This project was in the pipeline long before oily Salmond and his incompetent crew were installed in Holyrood. It is the SNP that have bottled the decision on this. If "Soapy" Swinney is not up to making a decision on the project recall, what is he for?
Making budget deals with the Tories is about the level of his competence.
78

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 01/03/2008 10:50:32
The planning system is meant to be lengthy. The whole point is to forsee and sort out as many problems as possible and to allow all of us our say.

It isn't perfect (what is?), but it's far better than hasty ill-considered developments. We may lose Donald, but we'll rescue a green field site from threat.

If you distrust planning then go study China, India, US etc where planning rules barely apply.
79

overton,

balmedie 01/03/2008 11:26:41
84 Rulesbutnotrulers,

You haven't tried to rescue any other 'green field sites' round about Aberdeen or any other town in Aberdeenshire so why start now? Quite frankly what is so special about Menie apart from the fact that it would make a great golf course with hotel and new village attached?
80

subrosa,

01/03/2008 11:31:59
# 80 & 82

That's for all that information. Most interesting.

I have to say that the way the lib dems and labour party have led a witch hunt over this matter is disturbing. Anyone outside of Scotland could have viewed the behaviour of Duncan McNeil and his committee, Duncan McNeil in particular, and rightly thought that this country isn't worthy of grown up business.
81

Chris,

Edinburgh 01/03/2008 12:05:48
Indeed, thanks to #80/82 for a reasoned debate. The only point I would make is that Trump doesn't do 'listening to reason', that is not the way he does business. However, Sorial should have known better, and, it would appear, has actually worsened the situation. I doubt if Trump employed him to do that!
82

ben w.barr,

north wilkesboro 01/03/2008 12:33:03
Trump is a fruit case. i suspect with the market turn down and the FACT that golf in U S is on the down swing, has to do something great in his eyes. Best thing for Scotland is keep him out. I suspect if he got, he would challenge the queen.
83

dido-bendigo,

Argyll. (Ex Grampian). 01/03/2008 12:33:31
In the seventeeth century Admiral Van Trump vowed to sweep the British from the seas. He didn't. Now that Bully Boy Trump can't take us by storm he should take his ball away and go and sulk in his bedroom. With friends like him to encourage nation-wide enterprise who needs enemies!
84

Neil,

Glasgow 01/03/2008 13:00:04
82 said "beyond saying that what happened is very normal indeed and was a correct process and is happening all over Scotland all the time. Normally, it does not have such a media interest.

However, let us be clear, Mr. Trump was again badly advised and should have 'tweaked' the application by pulling a couple of golf holes off the SSSI, changed bits of the layout relating to the 500 residential houses and resubmitted the application"

Which is pretty much what I said about the "planning" system, which consistently produces 3 year delays before work starts, being a massive disincentive to far more people than Trump.

The 2nd paragraph makes it clear that all this "planning" has little, if anything, to do with preventing bad decisions but merely with allowing self important councillors & bureaucrats to p*ss on projects so that they can say they have improved the flavour.
85

Resolutions,

01/03/2008 13:01:57
From questions set on another Scottish newspaper thread


viz Is this the right place to have this sort of development,?
is this the right development,?
what benefits(quantified please) will this bring to the area and Scotland,?
what has to be done to the infrastructure to deal with this and can the infrastructure cope?
what about the environmental effects now and in the future, given the climatic variations which are taking place?
how sustainable is it?

All these are just some of the many questions raised by this'project'.
Perhaps, just perhaps, we can get a fighting chance to get some sober answers without the whipped up media frenzy and then make a rational judgement.

PLEASE!!

May I add that one poster made the comment that Scotland does not like being walked over. In view of some of the hysterical comments earlier on this thread, I can only assume that the 'moderators' were in the same state as the posters. Shame on you.

Now, in the light of day,can we have this development looked at openly and soberly and weigh it up. Through this we may get some idea of what the Public Enquiry should be investigating on our behalf - our being the people of Scotland.
86

Resolutions,

01/03/2008 13:11:28
#80 and #82 I've just managed to read your post after skimming through a lot of the 'dross'. Thank you.

Perhaps some others may start to think a bit harder too.

Can it also be pointed out that the dune system is one physical feature extending from Newburgh to Blackdog. It does not suddenly become isolated on one estate. The management of that feature, must be treated as a whole which means that it needs cooperation between landowners etc. There is a problem at Blackdog to the south too - pollution widely reported.
Is this development appropriate for the area and for Scotland?
87

Iain Percival,

Den Haag 01/03/2008 13:41:02
Perhaps before making comment contributors would care to look at the entire development proposal INCLUDING the large number of "executive" houses which if built will earn the ££££ goodies - actually his trump card. In addition, I doubt if I have seen such an ugly building as that proposed as the hotel / club house.
I may live in The Hague, but I do not like to be vague. Please first look into and only then comment on the proposal.
(Scottish home base, The Black Isle)
88

Hamish Scott,

01/03/2008 13:44:59
Planning is part of the democratic process. If developers want to speed up decision making it would help if they paid more attention to what fits in with local and national policy.
89

Siobhan,

Nashville 01/03/2008 13:45:55
I hope Mr. Trump does decide to go elsewhere. I would hate for the beauty of Scotland to be spoiled just so that it can become like other places.
90

The Strategist,

01/03/2008 14:07:19
I'd much rather have an advanced all electric city car factory like the Norwegians.
91

Il Penseroso,

Inverurie 01/03/2008 14:10:04
It amazes me how concerned so many people who live nowhere near Balmedie or the Menie Estate care so much about the Green Credentials and the Welfare of the people of the Northeast. Have you lot been to Balmedie beach? Have you been amazed at the hordes (maybe ten , twelve at the weekend) who frequent this red-light district for fornicating oyster catchers? Perhaps a few twitchers will visit it today to catch sight of a rare species blown here by the gales.The income thus generated wouldn't justify a burger van so why are you all concerned. Newburgh, Cruden Bay, Royal Aberdeen and Murcar golf courses are viable and attract thousands of participants. They are just along the road from Balmedie and the wildlife on these courses are spectacular and in abundance. Why should Trumps proposed development be a non starter? A $2 billion investment certainly wont chase away anybody. On the contrary jobs, prospects and incomes will be manifestly improved for many. A few already wealthy cranks (mostly incomers) can afford the luxury of privacy and seclusion on the Menie estate grounds. A rare change from southern urban sprawls and over population, not to mention the immigrant explosion on that once green and pleasant land! To hell with the future of the indigenous population! Let them eat cake! The Northeast IS OPEN for business so let the progress continue and not be stifled by a clique of do-gooders who care more about their own little patch rather than the future of others.
92

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 01/03/2008 14:26:54
Fair call, #97, but Trump and his hired Yes-Men should perhaps try and appreciate the difference between 'Open for Business' and 'Everything for Sale'. I'm certainly no green loony, and I've never been near the place, but it's the attitude of this Paragon of Vulgarity, expecting the daft natives to roll over at the mere sight of his wallet, that scunners me and many others.
93

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 01/03/2008 14:29:16
#82 antiPCman sums up the whole carry-on pretty accurately. Planning permission was not refused because 'Scotland is closed for business', but because of the Trump organisation's intransigence.

#97 il penserosa - why not rent-out vast tracts of the Highlands to foreign governments for military bombing practice? After all, hardly anyone lives there, and the land is only used by fornicating animals and a handful of climbers. I mean, who could possibly be in the slightest bit interested in Scotland's landscape? Certainly not you.
94

Il Penseroso,

Inverurie 01/03/2008 14:29:37
Advocates for a proper and sustainable haven of sand dunes, rare grasses and wildlife in the Northeast might like to ponder on the following. If you want to rely on councillors who have the best interests of the area at heart then ask the mainly LibDems who have run this location for years why they approved the two huge land fill sites at Blackdog (just adjacent to Balmedie). This planning disaster has resulted in the pollution of vast tracks of the beach from the leakage of these poorly constructed sites. The salmon fishing has all but gone, jobs are at risk and a sustainable natural fishing resource lost. There may even be contaminants that could result in the beaches being closed and lasting damage caused to the environment. And you lot want these "cooncillors" to be judge and jury over the Trump proposal? Awa' an' bile yir heeds"
95

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 01/03/2008 14:33:23
#100 Il Penserrosa

Are you saying that the development should go ahead because the council made an ar*e of themselves with the Blackdog landfill?
96

Il Penseroso,

Inverurie 01/03/2008 14:57:41
#99 Tin Man AFF-YIR-Heid and ignorant of what is happening in your own country! Neep, the Scottish Coast is already being bombed to bits by your own UK government militia. All along the Pentland Firth and Cape Wrath the coast is being used as a practise location so that Britain's armed forces can "accurately" bomb and shell the innocents in Iraq and Afghanistan to kingdom come. I care more for my country than you obviously do because I make it my business to know what is happening here. Which Rainbow are you on or from? Of course you well know that the gold at the end of a rainbow is "makebelieve" just like your concept of Scotland.
#98
Would I be right in assuming you have Sky TV? I do not because I would not give the demogogue Murdoch my hard earned cash.That is my choice but these guys operate in a financial world I know little about. If they want to throw their cash in anyone's direction the choice is there to take. However, Murdoch can go out of business anyday as can Trump but once built up here in the Northeast the Trump development will still be here. Murdoch's Sky could be taken anywhere. His subscribers would still have their TVs but probably no programmes
97

Il Penseroso,

Inverurie 01/03/2008 15:04:26
Sorry to confuse your rainbow colours. Those councillors thought fit to cancel the Trump project because of their concern over a Special Site Of Scientific Importance. Where was the same logic applied to the Blackdog sites? In other words "do not listen to their rants about environment, oyster catchers or possible economic benefits". They have been shown to be incompetent.
98

Il Penseroso,

Inverurie 01/03/2008 15:17:23
#85 Overton Do you give any credence to the points I have made to those far from the Silver City with the Golden Sands and the Northeast? I never was aware of such affection from Edinburgh and the central belt for oor wee patch up here! Hope they extend their values and come up here and spent some of their affluent resources. But, hang on a minute! Isn't it true that your relatives in Edinburgh, when you knock on their door greet you with,"You will have HAD your tea"! AH well, we live in hope!
99

Neil,

Glasgow 01/03/2008 15:20:48
#96 Can you think of any reason why, with this example, an electric car manufacturer, or indeed anybody else, should choose to spend 3 years waiting to see if he will be allowed to invest here?

I think what #100 said about Blackdog proves that the council's objection simply cannot be on environmental grounds. Like so many self styled environmentalists they are merely opposed to anybody, but themselves, being allowed to do anything.
100

Resolutions,

01/03/2008 15:34:50
#103Il Penseroso ( not the most apt name!)
You seem unaware that the dunes are in fact the only ones of the type in Scotland and possibly UK! Also Trump was unaware of the pollution so near by and part of the same system. Have you not seen or are you unaware that sealevels are rising? These dunes are part of a natural defence system. It would look good, when the owners of these millionnaire establishments find themselves afloat/under water and the litigation started against all and sundry would'nt it?(mostly Scots as Trump would've evporated by then) That would close business.
No far more thought must go into this project than Trump and is associates are prepared to give. I notice his minion trying to interfere by demanding timescales.

Right here is a challenge for him! Let us see exactly how you build this, how you deal with the many problems associated with developing this sort of land, how you contribute to the co-operation in dealing with active dunes etc, where you anticipate the 'guests are coming from and how you get them there(and bring them back), how you service the hotel etc and from where,how many jobs created and type and where employees are to come from, and a whole lot more!

You claim the councillors are incompetent - but they have guidelines to follow as Trump should've found out about and 'worked into' his proposal and they ha