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Golf resort is high risk to Trump, says expert



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Published Date: 12 June 2008
DONALD Trump's ambitious plan to transform an environmentally sensitive stretch of the Scottish coastline into a £1 billion golf resort would be a major risk for the tycoon's business empire, a leading financial expert told the Menie inquiry yesterday.
Iain Webster, a financial expert hired by the Trump Organisation to carry out a detailed review of the controversial project, revealed the firm would have to spend £600 million on the development over six years before receiving a single penny back i
n income.

He claimed that the massive resort scheme only stood to make a profit for the entrepreneur if the project included a development of 500 luxury homes.

Mr Webster also told the second day of the inquiry in Aberdeen that Mr Trump planned to invest a potential £12 million of his personal fortune in the project and that his organisation had already spent £1 million preparing for the inquiry.

The revelations came on the second day of the public local inquiry into the Menie estate development in Aberdeenshire.

Mr Webster, the head of corporate finance with Johnston Carmichael, one of Scotland's largest accounting firms, told the inquiry that he had analysed two separate scenarios. The first involved a development comprising the two golf courses, the construction of 36 golf villas, almost 1,000 timeshare holiday apartments and a five-star hotel with 450 bedrooms. The second included the construction of 500 privately owned homes, with price tags ranging from £250,000 to £1 million.

The inquiry was told that the potential cost of developing the main championship course at the Menie estate could be as much as £12 million.

Mr Webster revealed: "I am aware that what (Mr Trump] is planning to do is to fund the golf course development with his own money. That is the equity that is going into the business.

"Once that golf course is up and running, he will use the equity value to then borrow money to fund further stages of the development. He would gear up or borrow against the security of existing properties."

Borrowing would represent 90 per cent of the total funding of the project. Mr Webster said: "I regard it as a relatively high-risk project. This is one of the largest capital projects I have ever seen and, in any large-scale capital project, you have real risk in terms of your construction costs and potential over-run. There is a seven-year construction period; costs are likely to go up."

He explained that the cash "outflows" of the project would go on until 2014. "There are, in effect, six years of cash outflows, which aggregate to £500 million before the project generates its first year of cash inflow. That is risky. It is a big-risk project."

The cash outflow of £500 million excluded interest and tax likely to total £100 million. "The Trump Organisation will be paying out approximately £600 million at that point before they start to generate cash inflow from the operation," said Mr Webster.

He added: "I have concluded, based on the proposed outline planning applications, the project may only be attractive to investors if the element of residential development is undertaken as part of the overall development."

The inquiry continues.



The full article contains 547 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 11 June 2008 9:51 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Donald Trump
 
1

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 12/06/2008 00:10:24
"Iain Webster, a financial expert hired by the Trump Organisation to carry out a detailed review of the controversial project, revealed the firm would have to spend £600 million on the development over six years before receiving a single penny back in income."

Hardly a fast buck then.
2

Tart,

New Zealand 12/06/2008 00:22:08
I think it would be great for the Scottish economy and tourism Just remember the locals - cheap golf
3

Buttress,

12/06/2008 01:33:40
"I have concluded, based on the proposed outline planning applications, the project may only be attractive to investors if the element of residential development is undertaken as part of the overall development."

Well he would say that wouldn't he... this is a massive development with a golf course attached, as otherwise he wouldn't be able to get planning permission as it stands.

4

bring them on,

12/06/2008 03:27:56
An expert...

Eh, I think my son could have worked that one out on his calculator.
5

Mist001,

Marseille 12/06/2008 04:04:37
"Iain Webster, a financial expert hired by the Trump Organisation to carry out a detailed review of the controversial project, revealed the Scottish tax payer would have to spend £6 million on the Menie Inquiry over six months before eventually saying yes to the proposal."

Michael.
6

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 12/06/2008 07:17:35
So, 500 homes are the key to the 'success' of this golf course!

A housing scam is a housing scam is a housing scam.

Wake up, you dozy local yokels.
7

overton,

balmedie 12/06/2008 07:35:44
6 Rulesbutnotrulers,Federation,

Wow, so whats wrong with building houses - surely thats within Local and Government policy?
If you want to complain about houses go down to Cove, Portlethen and Newtonhill and see how the moorland is being wrecked for dormitory style developments without even a peep from RSPB, Ramblers, retired town planners, professional objectors (Walton), tiny wee accordian players, Mickee Footee, Johnston, Ross, Ford and Storr?

Let's hear your true green credentials or is this more a case of the little green man called jealousy?
8

puskas,

East kilbride 12/06/2008 07:44:53
A golf course and 500 new houses would have been nice for Easterhouse... Pity. The Menie Estate ain't no St Tropez.
9

Mist001,

Marseille 12/06/2008 07:47:47
There's a thing. I wonder how many councillors Cala Homes/Stuart Milne have in their pocket?

Could all this be a case of jealousy because they've been trumped by Trump over the building of houses?

Michael.
10

puskas,

East kilbride 12/06/2008 07:54:18
Many bitter and intellectual challenged posters on this topic.

Reading to many comic stories. Dandy and Beano should be out and take the next step up to Roy of the Rovers before posting so much tripe on a serious subject.

Anyone who wishes to spend so much money in that area should be allowed to get on with it.

I certainly wouldn't have considered this site in my top 1,000,000 to finance a project as this one.
11

Buttress,

12/06/2008 08:00:02
500 homes - plus all the timeshare apartments and a hotel, all of no architectural merit - all to build a golf course? Still, it will give the locals jobs cleaning and bed changing. Sure they are lining up to do that.

Of course it's a scam! The eejit bought the land though without appreciating the planning problems (the SSSI for a start).
12

Beth Boyle,

NY 12/06/2008 08:29:28
Yes and if it all fails Scotland will be left holding the bag.
13

jmacamsterdammer,

Amsterdam 12/06/2008 09:17:40
The development can only really succeed if it is marketed (successfully) as a golf-destination, such as St Andrews, Gleneagles and Turnberry. I’m not that up on golf economics but the cheapest green fees for the (best) courses at these destinations is between 60 and 130 GBP. That is a lot of money and probably outstrips the ability of the local market to play regularly enough to sustain the course year-round (again, only a guess).

In terms of building 500 luxury homes/houses (there is a difference here), it would be interesting to see and hear about what scenarios have been planned for: what types of people/families could afford to buy the homes, where would they come from, what these people do for a living, can they live and work from this location, what additional transport links would have to be funded from the public purse (and how much “real money” is being contributed to the local economy)?

It’s an ambitious plan and in theory could potentially generate a lot of money but where is the real money actually being generated being banked? And what is really in it for Mr Trump?
14

Zambo,

12/06/2008 09:18:36
How do you invest 600 million, build 500 houses or 1000 holiday apartments, a 450 room 5 * hotel, and two golf courses, without using skilled labour, expert building and contract managers, logistics specialists, financial controllers, trucking firms, surveyors, drivers, machine operators, hundreds of sub-contactors and material suppliers, and the rest of the trained and experienced workforce it takes to mount a major project like this?

# 11 What are you on about?
15

brownlie,

12/06/2008 09:26:33
Can you give us a link to the architechural plans so we can judge the lack of merit?

Can you give us a link to the staffing levels that show they only need cleaners and bed-changers?

Strange to find a top-class hotel without chefs, managers, receptionists, electricians, plumbers etc etc etc.
16

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 12/06/2008 09:41:20
#7 Overton.

Low cost homes are indeed needed in most areas. But these are not low cost. And why use golf as the pretext?
17

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 12/06/2008 09:44:24
Aah, the usual doomongers, naysayers & downright objectionable moaning about this yet again.

Before Trump came on the scene, NOBODY had heard of The Menie Est!!

What is so wrong about our part of the world looking at diversifying our economy post-oil? Surely tourism is an important part of the future?

Trump's course will underpin & contribute to that future - nobody is saying it will do that ON ITS OWN!!

Wildlife continue to exist on & around golf courses - FACT! Trees & plants continue to exist on & around golf courses - FACT!

If the people of the NE want this built, & the majority DO, because coming from the local area we can see the BIGGER picture, then why shouldn't everyone accept that?

Bizarre.
18

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 12/06/2008 09:45:38
It's just as I said in the last story thread about this farce of a scheme: it's a pig in a poke that will be built on borrowed money. I quote ""Once that golf course is up and running, he will use the equity value to then borrow money to fund further stages of the development. He would gear up or borrow against the security of existing properties."

Borrowing in the current uncertain economic climate (along with collapsing house prices) is extremely expensive and makes the whole scheme highly speculative. More and more this is shown to be what it is: a simple scam to get a few quid out of the banks and then leave the bankrupted mess in Aberdeenshire if and when it all goes pear shaped.

Suddenly Trumpty's "I'm a big billionairre putting £1b into Scotland" turns out to be "actually I can just about scrape together one hundredth of that much money but I might be able to borrow the rest once we begin - just trust me, I'm The Donald". Donald Duck more like.
19

geekpie,

forfar 12/06/2008 09:49:27
Tart from New Zealand should remember the lesson from that country: rich Americans are buying up the land, fencing it off, and building hunting lodges or exclusive resorts. Scotland doesn't have as much land as New Zealand, so it would be even more folly over here as it is there.
20

Zambo,

12/06/2008 10:00:00
Yeah I can just see those big Wall Street bankers sitting in their office “Oh look here comes Donald again with another hair brained scheme let’s not check his credentials, his business plan, or his project details, I mean if that Scottish thing goes down we’ll all lose our bonuses if not our jobs but let’s just give him that $2 Billion anyway”

I’m glad you # 18 seem to know better than Donald’s investors how to do the lending business, maybe you should just pop over the pond and give them the benefit of your experience in project development, that'll soon stop Donald in his tracks.
21

Buttress,

12/06/2008 10:14:31
Once it's built - then contractors won't be needed. No saying they will be locals either. They could be brought in from anyhwere. This is not a lasting gain. And where are all these supposed staff going to live? In the luxury housing? Who is going to be rushing to buy that? The timeshares? Are all these claimed jobs required in the area? What is unemployment currently standing at?

Tourism? Golf? Really? How many more golf courses does a country need?

Please can those who claim that the SSSI isn't important (this isn't just any old wildlife area as 17 seems to suggest) - and that locals want this development, give me facts and figures to prove these claims?

'Can you give us a link to the architechural plans so we can judge the lack of merit?'


If you want to see the plans - seek out the local authority and ask, or contact A+DS, which was far from impressed. It's a tacky third rate development, maybe the locals slavering over having the development cluttering up the place haven't actually realised it's not exactly world class.

Trump admitted too that he hadn't any idea of the SSSI when he proposed the plans, nor had his golf course designer, and the 'right to roam' over the course wasn't thought about either. So really, not great so far - considering how much this is going to cost.
22

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 12/06/2008 10:21:30
#20 Your sycophantic slavishness to Trumpty seems to know no bounds. But do check up on his business history and biography; he has left a trail of bankruptcies and ruined and bitter partners in his wake. A nice man to do business with.

You Trump supporters all thought “here comes Mr. Cash The Big Billionairre to lavish us with easy money” but unfortunately it's actually turning out like the fable about the Emperor's clothes.

While the Trump supporters (ie. The Emperor’s supporters) stand in the street and say “look how fine he is dressed, what beautiful expensive clothes he wears” the rest of us are not so easily duped by the cut of his jib or the rubbish talked about "his massive investment". We stand here and proudly state: far from looking finely dressed, Donald The Emperor is not actually wearing any clothes; it's all just hot air. (Sorry for those of you who haven't had a good enough education to have come across that famous fable - look it up on the net and learn something about the dangers of being easily duped). A fool and his money are easily parted. In this case the fool, Aberdeenshire is all set to be parted from its beautiful unique environment and a pile of cash as well.
23

Zambo,

12/06/2008 10:28:13
There was no local oil industry in Scotland before North Sea oil, now Aberdeen is an international hub for specialist oil and engineering companies who have centered their operations there and helped develop the area. Some of the people trained in Scotland are now leading experts in the field and in demand all over the world.

Local companies will have an excellent opportunity to compete for the development work and will have many competitive advantages over incoming firms.

“Trump admitted too that he hadn't any idea of the SSSI when he proposed the plans, nor had his golf course designer, and the 'right to roam' over the course wasn't thought about either. So really, not great so far - considering how much this is going to cost.” Sounds like an opportunity right there for a local consultant?
24

Yeah1,

12/06/2008 10:35:18
#10 Puskas:

"Anyone who wishes to spend so much money in that area should be allowed to get on with it."

What a ridiculous thing to say, are you suggesting if someone has enough money to spend they should be allowed to do whatever they want without regard to planning laws, the environment, the local population?

Your attitude is a sad indictment of today's world, just because someone has money they should not be allowed to do what they want.

How about if the US wanted to build a new Guatanamo Bay there? Presumably you would support that too since it would bring in money from the prison guards using local services, and jobs from building it etc?
25

Zambo,

12/06/2008 10:38:54
# 22

Since 90% of this project is to be financed on borrowed money, Donald’s business plan and financial projections will need to be pretty tight if he is to succeed in raising the finance. If his background and reputation are not fully known to his bankers maybe you could just pop down a few words on an email to them, save you wasting time and energy on this thread.
26

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

12/06/2008 10:46:02
Usual Parochial idiot well meaning but stupid nonsense.
27

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 12/06/2008 10:58:50
#25 The only time waster I see is you. Are you truly so naive that you don't know how any businessman with a penchant for it can make easy quick cash out of getting money from banks for a development and then chucking it all in and bankrupting their various limited companies that received the loans? It happens everyday all around the world. As one of our American friends said, "wake up and smell the roses".
28

overton,

balmedie 12/06/2008 11:02:06
27 Mikko,Drumnadrochit

Listen Drama Queen - you've got the Loch Ness Monster and we are getting two world class golf courses, a world class hotel, 500 houses and timeshares and that's that!
29

Nomada,

12/06/2008 11:02:38
Some of the blinkered contributors above (Andrew, Overton, Zambo, Richard among them) might do worse than read http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/sean-ogrady-what-links-scotland-to-donald-trump-nothing-845062.html to find a well-reasoned dissertation on the *real* issues of this case. It has some big words, though, so maybe Richard #17 will need to wait for the story in pictures, as he clearly has not even grasped the simple fact, often stated, that the SSSI - the main reason for the environmental objections - is not primarily for any sort of wildlife, but for geomorphology (sorry Richard - another big word).
30

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 12/06/2008 11:03:10
#28 Want a bet?
31

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 12/06/2008 11:07:22
We're bought and sold for American gold. Such a parcel of rogues in a nation.
32

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 12/06/2008 11:15:29
#31 Don't be so defeatist: by digging our heels in and getting the green environmentalists around the world to seek judicial reviews and put up red tape and legal challenges at every single turn, we can make Trumpty tear his hair out in despair and clear off out of our lives.
33

,

12/06/2008 11:24:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
34

Buttress,

12/06/2008 11:33:05
Well you see Neil, you can demand all you want, but as you are such a bore and keep calling folks things like 'eco-fascists' and 'Luddites' no-one is taking you seriously so WON'T answer, not can't. I understand about the SSSI, it must be interesting or it wouldn't have been declared one you know, I've even watched things on the telly about it, so it MUST be important, and anyone else interested I am sure can look it up on t'internet.

How about the tacky architecture though, eh Neil? What do you have to say about that? How about all that cement which will be used, the CO2? All the materials used up building it? Not terribly eco-friendly eh Neil? Timeshares? Fuel used to drive there?

Come on - you call yourself an environmentalist?





35

overton,

balmedie 12/06/2008 11:33:46
32 Mikko,Drumnadrochit

It's nothing to do with you though - have you ever been to Menie Links?

I think that most normal people are aware of the new eco-fascist approach and I must say the tiny wee group of protesters have successfully hijacked this proposal to their own ends - they were quite well mobilised and indeed with the assistance of the Ellon Focus website as an e-mail hub have successfully kept each other informed as required - no argument there.

But I don't think that people in the UK or particularly in the North East here want to be dictated to by this fascist minority.

36

Buttress,

12/06/2008 11:35:11
As far as the golf course goes though Neil - think Trump may find he's building his empire on shifting sands...
37

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 12/06/2008 11:36:59
#33 Yesterday I answered your question in clear terms and then asked if you needed me to re-write it in simple words so that you could better understand it.

Today you add another question, " how many scientific expeditions to study it have been made in the last 5 years?" On this most recent question I don't know off the top of my head. But I bet if I asked you how many ball bearings are in the gearbox of your car you couldn't answer me off the top of your head either. Does that mean you are unqualified to drive?

Your questions are facile and when we do reply you don't bother reading our replies. Why don't you answer Buttress' question about the architectural merits of Trumpty's plans?
38

Buttress,

12/06/2008 11:39:19
Now now - the word fascist is getting to be ignorantly bandied about here and I am starting to feel it's offensive.

As far as nothing to do with those who don't live there - shall we include Trump in that? He's - gulp - FORIN.

The argument that it's only locals which should have a say is a spot wrongheeded you know. Presumably then only locals will be able to walk there and live there, by this sort of reasoning?

What are you hoping to get out of it personally?
39

Zambo,

12/06/2008 11:52:39
# 27

Phew a real financial guru on this thread, you'd better get on to Wall Street with this information their due diligence process needs amending quick.

40

Myosotis,

Kincards. 12/06/2008 11:57:12
For Richard (17) and Nomada (29):

Yes, geomorphology is a very important reason for the SSSI designation.

But almost as important, and having a greater extent, are the rare habitats, most of them on the EC Habitats Directive Priority List.

So TIGLS are proposing to translocate 35 ha of these key habitats. That`s 35 football pitches, and 175,000 journeys with 2m x 1m blocks. An enormous cost and waste of resources, which could be avoided if Donald Trump would compromise.

It would probably be the biggest translocation ever carried out for a coastal site, and may well fail.

There have been botched attempts to move some turves already at Menie, making hideous messes, and I think Donald thought that these were what people had dumped on the site when he made his tour early this week.

And no one dare tell him it was HIS OWN STAFF DOING TRIALS.
41

overton,

balmedie 12/06/2008 12:00:12
38 Buttress,12/06/2008

Do you have any opinion on the developments south of Aberdeen at Cove, Portlethen and Newtonhill?

With regard to benefits - this development will without question benefit the area through increased business opportunities for builders and the service industry, will provide indirect and direct employment opportunities in the local and beyond.
Rates will also be generated that will obviously help the area and still pay the salaries of the pathetic gang of four Lib Dem clowns who are sitting in at the Inquiry now and being paid for it by the region.

Mr Trump's investment is welcome here and the majority want the proposal to proceed post haste.
42

Jabali,

Edinburgh 12/06/2008 12:07:54
If the course(s) only costs £12million to build why does he need to invest a further £488million to make the development viable plus the associated £100million interest charges etc?

Aberdeenshire sounds like it could do with some external investment, the north-east is clearly lacking any major tourist destination beyond Deeside, and a world-class golf course plus facilities looks like a great project.

It's just the Trump's plans (you can see the drawings on his Menie website) are of the Las Vegas school of architecture and design - and would significantly detract from maintaining Scotland as a unique country - just another bit of US Scots pastiche.

The right developer, with the right plans is the solution. I hope that Trump is breaking the ground bureaucratically - but that someone more sophisticated can move it forward, if he is not prepared to listen to local voices and adapt.
43

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 12/06/2008 12:09:45
#41 If "this development will without question benefit the area" then there wouldn't be so much contrary argument in here would there? Or are you God, giving us your full and final ruling on the matter?

Calling people clowns, drama queens and - even worse - fascists just because they don't share your views is really quite offensive. Could we please have agreement between all sides here that no more slurs of fascism will be used otherwise I think it is time for us to ask the moderator to start removing all postings that make such outrageous slurs.

The highly offensive and derogatory language is unnecessary and I hope that upon mature reflection the Trump supporters will realise that it does their cause no good whatsoever.
44

RJ,

12/06/2008 12:16:15
#33: Neil:

What's the SSSI for?

Read. The. Inquiry. Documents. http://www.aberdeenshire.gov.uk/menieinquiry/

... particularly those from the Trump organisation's experts. They admit that the SSSI has very high nature conservation interest - but the Trump case is that a new golf course is more important; and that it has to go on the SSSI to be good enough to justify destroying the interest of the SSSI (which is sand dune geomorphology and sand dune habitat - or in plain English, how sand dunes move around and develop in shape and size over time, and what grows on them).

Your "how many 'expeditions' have been there challenge" is a straw man (look it up - it's a logical fallacy). Anyone with an interest has a right to go and look, study and enjoy without asking permission or registering their interest with anyone (see Part 1 of the Land Reform (Scotland) Actif in doubt). And the existence of "interest" in an SSSI can in no way be equated with popularity - "scientific interest" in the sense of an SSSI is a measure of the quality or unusualness of the site, not how many people go there.

There's no point attacking the SSSI, or those who wish to protect it. The Trump organisation have known about it all along and have refused to compromise or to adapt their plans to avoid a level of damage that would erase the "scientific interest" from the SSSI. Now - who's the bad guy?
45

,

12/06/2008 12:28:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
46

Myosotis,

12/06/2008 12:28:08
A big problem with moving turves from dune slacks is that suitable receiving areas have to be created, so the water regime is the same as at the original site.

TIGLS have proposed excavating ground down to near the water table, and then waiting to see if flooding occurs and for how long.

If flooded for most of the year, most plants in translocated blocks would die.

If flooded rarely if ever, most plants in translocated blocks would also die, since they grow in dune slacks because these places are regularly wet, and are flooded for usually 4-5 months over winter.

Getting the situation just right is tricky, as TIGLS admit. And while these operations are in progress the site will be like an opencast coal mine.
47

Buttress,

12/06/2008 12:29:42
Overton - I think the 'pathetic clown' may well be you.

48

Buttress,

12/06/2008 12:36:06
Come on then Neil - as we are all so wrong and so ignorant, do enlighten us - about the SSSI, about the architectural merit...
49

Myosotis,

Kincards. 12/06/2008 12:38:11
41:

The developments south of Aberdeen do not affect an SSSI.

Most conservationists and ecologists accept that we need more houses and workplaces, and simply want them put in sensible places.

If you work in Aberdeen it`s as easy to live in Portlethen as Balmedie (depending of course on if work is north or south of the centre). But when you want to travel for the amenities of Edinburgh and Glasgow it`s much better to be in Portlethen than Balmedie.

And doesn`t need as much costly infrastructure like the AWPR.
50

overton,

balmedie 12/06/2008 12:40:17
43 Mikko,Drumnadrochit

Sorry chum didn't think I was being offensive I just thought I was stating fact.
Everyone here is upset that a small minority of well organised individuals have almost scuppered what is generally considered to be a very good economic opportunity for the region.
Why should a minority dictate what the economic future of Aberdeenshire should be?
The clique involved are also strong objectors against the AWPR which is much need to remove gridlock from Aberdeen and support industry north of the city.

Your motives are being questioned by people and your aguments are weak no wonder people here are angry and exasperated.

We have four elected Lib Dem representatives siting in this Inquiry as objectors who are treating the electorate, their party and Aberdeenshire Council with the utmost contempt and you really think that normal people will sit and listen to your flowery remote objections without comment?

51

kimba,

12/06/2008 12:40:29
Then turn around Trump old chap,we don't need your golf course,if we need a new golf course the people of GB are more than capable of building our own!
52

Sedov,

Scotland 12/06/2008 12:40:49
Put up or shut up, Mr Trump.
53

,

12/06/2008 12:41:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
54

RJ,

12/06/2008 12:41:58
#45:

Ad hominem - logical fallacy
Reductio ad Nazium - logical fallacy
Poisoning the well - logical fallacy

What does my long post prove I am ignorant of and how? And would you care to address the points I made in it?
55

RJ,

12/06/2008 12:45:15
#53:

Ad hominem - logical fallacy
Reductio ad Nazium - logical fallacy
56

Loon fae Kemnay,

Kemnay 12/06/2008 12:56:36
Oerton - 7
"Wow, so whats wrong with building houses - surely thats within Local and Government policy?"

No it is not within Local Government policy. What is proposed is to build a new town and it states quite clearly in the Aberdeenshire Plan that there will be no new towns in Aberdeenshire!

Also there is no mention in the plans for the supporting infrastructure - schools, roads, health centres, police, water and waste etc etc. Who do you think is going to pay for that?? Would it not be the local council tax payer perhaps??
57

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 12/06/2008 12:57:39
#29

Sorry - GEO-what???? ;-)

#40

Thank you, but it doesn't change my mind one iota.
58

,

12/06/2008 12:58:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
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59

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 12/06/2008 12:59:36
This won't be a golf-for-the-lads operation. The only Scots accent you will hear on the place will be the wee fella washing the clubs.
And how luxurious is a luxury home in the middle of a Scottish winter where I'm told it rains a bit.
Once this thing kicks in old Lord Comb-over will come looking for taxpayers' dosh. You've heard it here first.
60

Salem,

12/06/2008 13:12:59
Mikko, Drumnadrochit

I have followed your posts in other threads on this topic.

Your attempt at being hip with your childish derogatory language falls flat.

One of the main elements of capitalism is risk. Donald Trump is one who dares to take risks. Taking risks is how you succeed in a capitalist society. It is through risk that you make things happen.

So far you have failed to come up with one good reason to deny permission for this project to go ahead. Instead you have chosen to attack Mr. Trump and his business practices. It is clear you have little knowledge of either. You have also made anti-American remarks that have no basis in fact but are rather based on stereotyping.

If indeed you are Scottish you are a disgrace to the heritage of Scotland that has given the world so much and especially America.

You mentioned somewhere else that America has no history. Such a comment highlights your ignorance. It is unnecessary to have been in America to appreciate the history; you will find all you need to know in your public library. Before continuing to embarrassing yourself with your moronic posts try to raise your awareness threshold of how things work in today’s world.

As a child Andrew Carnegie came to America with his parents, not too far from the location of the proposed golf resort, they were seeking a better life. By taking risks he became the second richest man the world has ever seen. To this day his fortune continues to benefit thousands if not millions of people around the world. Donald Trump is a modern day Andrew Carnegie.

Personally I have little time for Donald Trump, he is an arrogant windbag, but he gets the job done and that’s all that matters.

It is very easy to tear down an idea that would undoubtedly improve the lot of the Scottish people in different ways. But the man from Drumnadrochit and some of the other morons chiming in here, offer absolutely nothing by way of alternatives to improve the lot of the Scottish peop
61

Salem,

12/06/2008 13:16:23
It is very easy to tear down an idea that would undoubtedly improve the lot of the Scottish people in different ways but you the man from Drumnadrochit offer absolutely nothing by way of alternatives to improve the lot of the Scottish people, who are in dire need of help from any source.

Trump’s golf resort will not save Scotland but it would help and if you can’t help don’t hinder.
62

Buttress,

12/06/2008 13:25:25
Neil post 58 - when Hitler is invoked in this manner it is normally regarded on messageboards that the poster has totally lost the plot.

Calling those you don't agree with fascists likewise.

Salem - using terms such as 'morons' isn't too useful either. Especially in the context of a post which shows a certain lack of flair and enlightenment.

Trolling or ignorant - I don't know, but you are hardly making your points with eloquence and BTW Neil as I stated yesterday, I'm not a 'he'.



63

RJ,

12/06/2008 13:27:57
#58: Neil old chap - I think you've lost the plot. The SSSI in question (Foveran Links) has been protected by the law of the land since it was designated in 1984. The Trump organisation accepts its special scientific interest - so I'm not entirely sure why you're bothering to attack it. If you had read the Trump organisation's inquiry documents you would understand this.

"eco-fascits"; "more deaths than Hitler" - are precisely the fallacies I meant. You say you've proved your point - but I see no proof, only bluster.

As for "robbing Scotland of £1,000M" - firstly, Trump is not the only show in town (or Scotland, at any rate). Scottish Ministers will need to consider whenther bending the rules as much as Trump wants them bent for him really sends out the right signals about Scotland being open for business as a small 21st century European democracy - or whether it looks more like hypnotic selling out to the first big name developer to come calling with a vanity scheme.

Quote from Mr Trump in Stornoway on Monday: "They all want Trump because I do the highest level of work, and I'm known for that. People know that our level of work is the best and when a project is finished, it's going to be the best, and that's why governments call me. They've a piece of land in a certain country, they call me."

Is that what we want of our Government?
64

Myosotis,

12/06/2008 13:30:09
50: As in almost every post, Overton gets the facts wrong.

Those opposing the Aberdeen Western Peripheral Route are almost entirely different to those opposing the Trump golf course.

The reason is obvious.

The proposers of this road have taken notice of the environmental features on potential routes, and have carefully designed the scheme to affect few houses and do least damage to the environment.

If the road had gone through the SWT Netherley Moss, then opposition from that group would have come. But the AWPR weaves around such places.

In contrast Donald Trump was attracted by fine habitat, didn`t bother to check if it was listed, and continues to show he doesn`t care. But DT puts his own ambition above a system that tens of thousands of people have diligently operated to give people throughout Scotland attractive wildlife and as little impediment as possible on sensible economic development.

This Inquiry hinges on whether gain for one part of Scotland merits the collapse of a successful system for managing development across the whole of Scotland.
65

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 12/06/2008 13:34:47
Attractive wildlife at Menie...yeah so attractive that - oh, about 27 people visited to view the yellow-chested dipper in the last 12mths.

Ho hum.

FOREEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;-)
66

Myosotis,

Kincards. 12/06/2008 13:36:00
Straightforward untruths from La La (62) on the rare plants.

What species are they that cannot now be found as you claim?

And what report on Menie was written 20 years ago?

No answer will mean you know you have been talking rubbish.

67

RJ,

12/06/2008 13:38:12
#62: SSSIs are nationally important by definition. The interest of the SSSI is acknowledged by the Trump organisation - whose experts feel it should in fact be larger than it is and cover more of the land proposed by Trump for golf: http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.2326554.0.trumphired_expert_objected_to_golf_course.php - views that appear also in the Trump organisation's Environmental Statement and inquiry documents.

In a nutshell their position is: it's an important sand dune site, but our golf course will be even more important. Some people buy that, some people (me included) do not and think that Trump should compromise.

In the end of course, Ministers will decide.
68

Buttress,

12/06/2008 13:40:08
I posted this yesterday but for those unaware:

A+DS Criticise Design
Architecture and Design Scotland criticise Trump Organsation's concept designs:

Head of Design Review at ADS, Angela Williams, said: "Should a world-class golf facility be located in such a sensitive landscape, it needs to be realised through an exemplary design process to secure a built development and reformed landscape of exceptionally-high quality. We do not see such an aspiration in the designs as currently submitted.

"They would not only have a negative impact on an area of high landscape value but would also devalue the Scottish architectural tradition that they attempt to emulate. We consider that an outline planning application should not be approved on the basis of the information submitted.

"We do not believe that the designs submitted are of sufficiently high quality for this unique location, for a project with such an international profile, or for Scotland as a whole."
030907



69

overton,

balmedie 12/06/2008 13:40:36
65 Myosotis,

Again you come on spout absolute rubbish:

Martin Ford is attending the Inquiry as an objector and is registered objector to the AWPR.
W.Walton is attending the Inquiry as an objector and is registered objector to the AWPR.
They are sitting side by side and whispering into each others ears.

With regard to Menie neither you nor any of the tiny minority of objectors gave a hoot about Menie before and it is only a pretence that you care now.

70

Buttress,

12/06/2008 13:44:20
70 Overton Balmedie:

They are entitled to attend, they are entitled to object, it's quite legal, and again - intemperate allegations regarding people's motives for objecting.


'Aboslute rubbish' - not your opinion so it's rubbish? We live in a democracy - and maybe we all actually care about defending it?

71

Nomada,

12/06/2008 13:46:14
#62 La La (should that be Ga Ga?). I posted this link to the definitive documents on the SSSI yesterday, but you obviously read something else: http://gateway.snh.gov.uk/portal/page?_pageid=53,910305,53_910314&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL&PA_CODE=659&NEW_WINDOW=false . Read it now and you will (possibly) realise what utter tripe you appear to believe.
72

Jock Wilson,

12/06/2008 13:50:21
65


"This Inquiry hinges on whether gain for one part of Scotland merits the collapse of a successful system for managing development across the whole of Scotland"

This is your own assessment of what is at stake and should not go unchallenged. For a start it is too reductionist. There are other polarities that could equally do justice to what is at stake.

Also, I would challenge your view that the management of development across Scotland has been successful. I know and work with a lot of planners and architects who would tear their hair out at this suggestion. The process is labyrinthine and too slanted towards the agendas of unelected agencies and crusading individuals.

73

,

12/06/2008 13:54:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
74

Myosotis,

12/06/2008 13:59:09
70 and 65:

Overton cites two individuals. I talk about major organisations such as SNH, RSPB, SWT.

These bodies have thousands/tens of thousands of people pushing vigorously for action when cases like the AWPR and Menie come along. But these thousands are satisfied a sensible route has been chosen for the AWPR, they are so angry about the damage to the environment, to Scotland`s reputation, and the consequent loss of skilled jobs, that a Menie approval will cause.

75

Myosotis,

12/06/2008 14:03:44
73:

A question, Jock.

Are developers elected?

If not, why should their views hold sway over other unelected organisations.

You claim the system of SSSIs cuases some people "to tear their hair out". So why hasn`t the Government abandoned it?

Again the answer is obvious. The great majority of people want development to be controlled and to avoid the best places for wildlife.
76

,

12/06/2008 14:12:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
77

Buttress,

12/06/2008 14:14:37
Overton - 74 - I have asked the moderators to remove your post, as again you make disparaging comments and liken posters here to fascists. Are you in fact the same person as Neil?

You really are not worth responding to, if this is the standard of argument of those claiming to live locally and support Trump and this development, I suspect the objectors have little to fear.
78

Buttress,

12/06/2008 14:18:37
77 - Neil - - are your posts now random and computer generated, using the same tired phrases in no particular order without actually saying anything? Or are you simply a troll?

79

,

12/06/2008 14:23:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
80

Malc.F,

France 12/06/2008 14:23:36
I AM WRITING THIS IN CAPITALS SO THAT YOU CAN SEE THE TRUTH. I HAVE A NEIGHBOUR HERE WHO IS A CORPORATE LAWYER IN THE USA AND HE ASSURES ME THAT IT IS NO SECRET THAT DONALD TRUMP NEVER EVER SPENDS ANY OF HIS OWN MONEY ON HIS NUMEROUS PROJECTS AND THAT IT WILL BE THE SCOTTISH TAXPAYER WHO WILL EVENTUALLY PAY FOR THIS FOLLY.
I HAVE A SUGGESTION FOR THE THOUSANDS OF LOCALS WHO ARE CONVINCED THAT THIS IS A GOOD IDEA. CLUB TOGETHER AND PUT A WEE BITTIE OF YOUR OWN MONEY INTO THIS AND YOU WILL THEN REAP THE REWARD OR THE WHIRLWIND BY OWNING IT YOURSELVES,BUT PLEASE DON'T PAINT TRUMP AS AN HONOUABLE MAN.
81

Jock Wilson,

12/06/2008 14:26:01
76,


SSSIs are only a small part of the managed development and planning process and I have no real beef with their existence or the intent that underpins them.

Only an idiot would advocate a free for all in terms of development, but the problem lies in finding sensible ways forward. At the moment we don't have such a system. But you constantly polarise positions in your posts, relying exclusively in 'Either/Or' propositions.

The set up should allow sound and beneficial proposals to go forward for scrutiny: unfortunately it has become a way of ensuring that a single badger's set impedes an entire project designed to help a community or adds considerably to its cost.
82

hassan i sabbah,

edinburgh 12/06/2008 14:26:02
I just don't like the look o'the felly!
83

Buttress,

12/06/2008 14:30:27
80 - Overton - why thank you! I do my best!
84

Myosotis,

12/06/2008 14:32:15
62:

Still waiting for a list of rare plants that can`t be found at Menie known 20 years ago.

And now Neil (77) starts quoting your vapourings as facts.

These groundless messages weaken the developer`s case, and help swell the tide of people changing their mind on the proposal, and now wanting it rejected.
85

RJ,

12/06/2008 14:32:21
#77: From Trump organisation precognition and rebuttal statements to the inquiry:

"In general, such massive inland bare sand features
are almost unknown elsewhere in Scotland, but are uniquely found at Balmedie, Menie, Foveran and Sands of Forvie."

"Potential disagreements notwithstanding, there is general agreement on the importance of Foveran Links SSSI and dune habitats south of the SSSI boundary which are regarded as SSSI quality. Likewise, there is further agreement on the severe adverse impacts of development for golf within the dune sector at Menie."

Just accept that the SSSI is important - Trump's advisors do.
86

Buttress,

12/06/2008 14:35:26
And that the building development isn't considered of a great deal of architectural merit - Scotland meets Disneyland.

87

Myosotis,

12/06/2008 14:38:50
Thanks, Jock (82).

You and I are not too far apart.

I agree on a single badger set, and maybe you know some could be affected by the AWPR (N.B. - conservation bodies are not opposing the present broad route).

As for Menie, I have been pushing for a compromise, but if accepted with no changes I still predict disastrous results for Scotland.
88

RJ,

12/06/2008 14:43:20
#82: The SSSI system does allow damaging projects to go ahead if they are beneficial enough (in terms of the *public* interest) - in official speak:

only if: the objectives of designation and the overall integrity of the area will not be compromised; or
any significant adverse effects on the qualities for which the area has been designated are clearly outweighed by social or economic benefits of national importance.
89

overton,

aberdeen 12/06/2008 15:08:38
88 Myosotis,
' I still predict disastrous results for Scotland'

Is that the old Drama Queen in you sneaking out again?

Disastrous? Michty Me.
90

Nomada,

12/06/2008 15:12:31
Neil #77 - you are a real star. You ignore all the statements of those who actually *know* about the SSSI, and accept the ramblings of someone who knows absolutely nothing, apparently just because 'La La' suffers under the same delusions as you do. The facts are verifiable at the link I gave at #72. And before you complain that it is a link, the documents in that link are the *statutory* documents for the SSSI, so are the only statements on it that count.

Now why don't you give it a rest and get on to another obsession?
91

puskas,

East kilbride 12/06/2008 15:13:54
No 24 Yeah1.


Well that was an interesting reply. Please think for yourself and don't try to enter anothers brain when you have so much difficulty with your own.
In your reply these obviously are your own words that don't come anything close to anything I said..

Do you come from outer space?

Read what I said even if it takes you into next year and beyond you silly boy. LOL