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Pressure on parties to drop opposition as most Scots back independence vote

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Published Date: 01 July 2009
PRESSURE was mounting last night for the unionist parties in Holyrood to drop their threat to block a referendum on independence after an ICM survey of more than 1,000 Scots revealed that 58 per cent want a poll to go ahead in the next year.
But while most people want the chance to have their say on the Union, the survey also showed that a majority of Scots oppose independence.

SNP ministers plan to introduce a referendum bill into parliament next year. However, Labour, the Conservati
ves and Liberal Democrats have already served notice that they will block it.

The SNP has vowed to plough on with its National Conversation on the future of the Union, with deputy first minister Nicola Sturgeon fielding questions from the public in Dundee yesterday.

But concerns were being raised last night over the wording of the independence referendum question proposed by the Nationalists.

Responding to the SNP-worded

question: "The Scottish Government should negotiate a settlement with the government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state, yes or no?" 42 per cent replied yes and 50 per cent said no.

The number in support of the SNP position was in marked contrast to another ICM question poll of the same people earlier this week which revealed just 28 per cent support for independence and led to accusations that the Nationalists' proposed referendum question "is rigged".

However, SNP constitution minister Mike Russell, who chaired the National Conversation event in Dundee, said that the 42 per cent support showed that opinion was swinging the separatists' way.

He pointed out that it was higher than the 36 per cent support in April 2007.

"Scotland is in a process of independence, and support for an independent Scotland is stronger now than when the SNP took office – recording a six point swing since the last ICM poll just before the 2007 election," he said.

"Achieving the same rate of progress would see independence emerge as the winning option in a referendum.

"That is extremely encouraging, as is the clear majority support for a referendum."

He went on to challenge the Unionist parties to heed the poll on having a referendum and "let the people decide".

But the leaders of the unionist parties in the Scottish Parliament insisted they would stick by their opposition to a referendum, despite rumours that the Tories in Westminster are considering supporting one.

Scottish Labour leader Iain Gray said, despite the variations caused by the wording of the question, the poll showed once again how consistent support was for the Union in Scotland.

And he was not swayed by the majority support for a referendum and said the SNP had missed their opportunity.

"A year ago Labour offered the SNP a referendum on a straight question and they ran away," he said. "Alex Salmond will only ever consider a referendum that is rigged. It is only right people want a say in how the country is run, but I believe their top priority now is economic recovery. That is what Labour is focusing on and so should the SNP."

Scottish Conservative leader Annabel Goldie added that if voters want independence they will have their chance to vote for it in the next general election.

"The latest opinion polls confirm support for independence is at an all-time low and support for Scotland as part of Britain is at an all time high," she said.

"Devolution is the settled will of the Scottish people. Election after election and poll after poll tells us so."

Scottish Liberal Democrat leader Tavish Scott said that the variety of opinions in the polls supported his party's contention that devolution "is a process not an event".

"People's hunger for change is clear to see," he said. "The appetite for more powers for the Scottish Parliament has never been greater. We need a different approach. The Scottish Parliament must be able to use its powers for a purpose, bringing the new jobs and investment that Scotland needs."





The full article contains 681 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Nevsky;,

Moscow 30/06/2009 21:52:10
This is very very worrying news for the unionists.

The fact that 42% are in favour of independence is an astounding figure bearing in mind that the campaign has not even started!

No longer can they claim 'the vast majority' are against the prospect of Scotland being a free nation taking its own decisions for the benefit of all of the people of Scotland.

This is also a reflection on the realisation by the people that only under an SNP Government are their aspirations being realised.

The lies of the Union are day by day are being dismantled!
2

Nevsky;,

Moscow 30/06/2009 21:56:26
Will the unionists now go against the democratic will of the people for a vote? How can they?

With the prospect of 12 years of Tory rule from London with three MPs in Scotland, Labour and the Lib Dems face a very stark choice!

Scottish non-entity within the union and reject the will of the people OR back the vote for a referendum!

Great days ahead!
3

Jerry Springer,

30/06/2009 22:47:58
OH DEAR!

This is very very worrying news for the Nats.

Looks like independence is a busted flush.

From the BBC June 30th

"The poll also asked which of a range of scenarios were closest to people's views of how Scotland should be governed.

Under this wording, only 28% backed the option of Scotland becoming independent of the rest of the UK, with 47% in favour of remaining in the UK, with the Scottish Parliament able to make some decisions about the level of taxation and government spending in Scotland."

There you have it folks, when a straight forward question is asked to the public, a massive 28% want independence

No wonder.

Anyone voting for independence in the current climate needs their head examined.
4

Jerry Springer,

30/06/2009 23:14:58
Scotland doesn't "own" the oil fields, and anyway the recent GERS report published last week showed that oil income would NOT have saved the Scottish economy during the recent world economic meltdown.

Scotland will always be either a subsidy junkie from the Treasury in London or Brussels, but would never be able to survive as a full, stand alone independent nation.

The sooner the Brigadoon Brigadiers realise that, the better.
5

,

30/06/2009 23:21:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
6

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 01/07/2009 00:29:39
Springer

"Scotland will always be a subsidy junkie..."

A strange assertion indeed.

So either we become independent and the remainder of the UK will become really rich?

or

We stay in the Union to please 'subsidy junkies' like Springer

You have no real argument Springer. You are merely an Agent Provocateur.



7

Glenn Quagmire,

01/07/2009 00:31:03
Maddox has written an article that could, in the cold light of day at Starship Hootsmon, possibly, be seen as even-handed and fair.

He's obviously down with swine flu.
8

Jerry Springer,

01/07/2009 00:36:05
7 Andrew BOD,Aberdeenshire 01/07/2009 00:29:39

If we ever became independent (which let's face it will never happen), we would become the new Ireland.

The SNP begging bowl would be out in force in Brussels.

9

Jerry Springer,

01/07/2009 00:37:26
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1160125/DAILY-MAIL-COMMENT-Alex-Salmons-arc-prosperity-arc-disaster.html

Alex Salmon's 'arc of prosperity' is now an arc of disaster

Was it really less than three years ago when nationalist First Minister Alex Salmond outlined his vision of an independent Scotland as part of an 'arc of prosperity', embracing 'Ireland to our west, Iceland to our north and Norway to our east'?

Not since Chamberlain returned from his 1938 meeting with Hitler, promising 'peace for our time', has a politician made a more catastrophic misjudgment.

Look at Mr Salmond's arc today. Iceland bankrupt. Ireland drowning in debt. Only prudent Norway is holding its head above water.

Oh, and Scotland? As Gordon Brown wryly pointed out yesterday, the UK's bailout of the two mighty Scottish banks, upon which Mr Salmond built his dream, has cost more than the entire budget of the Edinburgh government.

In short, without the Union, Scotland would be in the same boat as Iceland - at the bottom of the sea.

If one good thing comes out of this grim recession, let that be the continuation of an interdependent Union that has brought huge benefits to the WHOLE kingdom - and has now saved Scotland from disaster.
10

Iainbroch,

01/07/2009 00:53:23
Newsflash!

Iain Gray makes a tool! Chimp made unemployed!
11

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 01/07/2009 00:54:31
This poll shows that Wendy Alexander's position - the "bring it on" positon - was the one more in keeping with public opinion. I think that Labour and other unionist parties are afraid of drawing a line in the sand. They don't want to see where support for the independence option lies. The danger for them is that if they have a referendum, and the independence option is defeated by only ten percent or so, it lays down a marker for further constituntional haggling. Labour's position has always been to kill nationalism stone dead. They will not succeed in that, no matter how much Jim Murphy wraps himself in the saltire. In fact, dressing Labour up in tartan and saltires might just come across as phoney.
12

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 01/07/2009 01:01:33
10 Springer

Please explain the "begging bowl". What are you talking about?

It's the unionist parties that wish to continue using Barnett. Not the SNP. They want full fiscal autonomy. (So do the Lib Dems, but they're afraid to break ranks with their Labour bedfellows.)
13

Cpt Incredible,

Edinburgh 01/07/2009 01:08:46
The support for Independence would appear to be an unstoppable force.
Alexander the Great and the SNP have shown us how much better Scotland would be as an Independent Nation.
It's only a matter of time,the over 65s are now the only age group in support of the Union
14

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 01/07/2009 01:11:05
#10 Jerry Springer,

you're views of Scotland are astounding. Hugh Trevor-Roper once said that if Scotland were to become independent it would be like Ulster. He seemed to miss the point that it was still part of the UK - as I think do you. Or are you saying we'd be like Eire? I don't see people in Eire, like Denmark or Norway or Iceland or Belgium or Luxembourg etc etc, asking to be incorporated back into a larger union. Really, yours isn't so much an argument as a biased point of view that echoes the long held belief that Scotland shouldn't decide it's own political future, it should do as it's told. Where do you stand on the referendum question? Would you support one?
15

Glenn Quagmire,

01/07/2009 01:14:54
#10 Refuse

Could you provide a picture of this begging bowl? I searched everywhere and couldn't find it. Hopefully it would look good on my mantlepiece and provide a handy receptacle for my keys, bits of fluff etc.

Please advise where I can purchase this intriguing piece of craftwork.
16

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 01/07/2009 01:17:00
Jerry Springer is clearly a Tory/anti-EU poster. The likes of which we see everyday on the Telegraph or Times websites but, perhaps, rarely on the Scotsman.
17

Brianwci,

01/07/2009 01:27:24
No doubt Rufus/Jerry won't like me repeating this but I have said many times the British Nationalists in Holyrood won't dare deny the people their say when it comes right down to it, though I was extrapolating from Euro and General Elections votes yet to come.

Euros did come in and were even better than expected and by the time the General Election results propel the SNP into the political stratosphere the poor shell shocked Brit Nats, with their view firmly fixed on their own languishing Holyrood careers about to be tested in 2011, will not dare say no.

The people will have spoken in two major elections and now they have even spoken via an opinion poll.

Can't wait to hear Goldie, Scott and Gray spluttering and stuttering next time Alex gets them on their feet in Holyrood.
18

redcliffe62,

01/07/2009 01:33:16
the fact less than a quarter think london should be in control of all taxation as now shows another dynamic to this poll.
how a questin is phrased makes all the difference.
labour has an issue with dockyards, they need to close one, glasgow or portsmouth. in 2010.
wait for labour to say. if scotland was not in the union the dockyard would close losing thousands of jobs.
if they close it anyway and support portsmouth, which makes sense to mother england, then the snp view that labour supports the union over scotish jobs will seen to be proven.
my thoughts are if saving glasgow jobs helps to scupper the snp that is the line they will take, all hail the mighty brown who saves scotkland and so on, but if election is a lost cause then they will support portsmouth, not that labour have many mp's to lose in the south of england anyway.

19

Brianwci,

01/07/2009 01:52:00
redcliffe62 as I understand it the Navy will close 2 out of the 3 dockyards concerned, 1 in Portsmouth and 1 on the Clyde, leaving 1 on the Clyde.

But it's still only speculation. No doubt though the British Nationalists will play it for all it's worth and if neither close it will be sold as a benefit of this discredited British union.
20

Edward,

01/07/2009 02:03:27
Amazing when you get the likes of Iain Grey, Annabel Goldie and Tavish Scott all spouting that support for Independece is low, BUT they dont want to put it to a test! Very strange indeed that they do not trust the people. Call themselves democrats - thats a joke
The unionist kabal should listen and listen good. If the people, that is the people that pay your wages want to decide their future, what ever it will be, they damn well deserve to be listened to and allowed to have a referendum!
Im fed up with Labour and their unionist freinds dictating to the people
21

Edward,

01/07/2009 02:07:56
I found it disgusting that the BBC made great play in both the UK wide News (a rare occurance that anything involving Scotland gets a mention!) that 'the majority of Scots dont want Independence and quoting the 28% that do. They conveniently left out that there had been another question regarding support for to have the SNP Government negotiate Independence, which got 42% with 8% refusing to answer
This was blatant news information manipulation by the BBC!
It was until later bulletin that they must have had a guilt to admit to further questions on the poll
22

Edward,

01/07/2009 02:10:05
' Iain Gray said, despite the variations caused by the wording of the question, the poll showed once again how consistent support was for the Union in Scotland.
And he was not swayed by the majority support for a referendum '
So the majority WANT a referendum, but Iain Gray is more than happy to ignore the people. About says it all really!
23

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 01/07/2009 02:12:52

On the BBC Scotland News, just received, they said that only 43% of the Scottish Public are now willing to vote for Independence, they say that this is because they have now become disillusioned, of the Scottish Government, and promises not being kept or being carried out.
This is the case!, and once again 'We_Have_Failed'!


24

,

01/07/2009 02:26:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
25

Fletty73,

Stirling 01/07/2009 02:39:51
These folks that say "yes" and "no" depending on how the question is asked.

Are these the same folks that managed to make a mess of their 2007 ballot papers.?

Can we identify them and ensure their votes don't count? They clearly ain't got a clue proividing 2 answers to the same question.

Also, those folks (and there are still plenty), that say "I vote Labour, because my family always have and always will". What the f' is that all about?

It's like saying "My life is cr*p and I want to keep it cr*p." These folks should also be denied a say in Scotlands future.
26

Castaway™ ,

01/07/2009 03:09:23
Iain Gray - "A year ago Labour offered the SNP a referendum on a straight question and they ran away," Mr Gray read on ...........

Legal setback to Wendy's 'straight-choice' vote call.A bid by Labour to force a Yes/No referendum between Scottish independence or staying in the UK could be blocked on legal grounds, it was claimed today.

Former Scottish Tory leader and Edinburgh Pentlands MSP David McLetchie and lawyer by profession,"said the SNP's proposed referendum question - seeking approval for negotiations on independence - had been carefully worded to stay within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.And he claimed a more direct question could require the referendum to be run by Westminster because the constitution is a UK responsibility.

A spokesman for the First Minister said the government's proposed question was closely based on the wording of the 1997 devolution referendum which led to the Scottish Parliament. And he said: "The Scottish Parliament cannot, of itself, make Scotland independent.
"The question reflects the nature of the process and the relationship we seek."
Scotsman 10 May 2008 :: http://tinyurl.com/5edw9y

Although the Scottish Parliament has no constitutional powers to organise a legally binding independence referendum, the wording proposed by the SNP is legal and would leave the UK government little choice but to negotiate with the Scottish Government so that 'Scotland becomes an independent state'.
http://tinyurl.com/42cek5
27

Canny Mann,

The Kingdom 01/07/2009 04:09:07
Jerry Springer
Tonight I heard on the news that Norway with a population of 4.5 million, had saved an oil fund from thier oil revenues. It went on to say that during the economic crash, the fund set up by Norway had bought BILLIONS of £ worth of shares in the stock market. As they had bought at the very bottom of the share price, before the stocks had started to rise again. Norway was in a position of extreme strength. The population gaurenteed prosperity for many years to come.
Should scotland become indipendant, then the oppertunity to invest for a rainy day would be available to the scottish population. Unless you think the price of oil is going to fall. Have you looked at the price of petrol at the pumps?

As a people the scots have hope under Alex Salmond. Under 18 years of the tories we had devestation, first under Thatcher continueing under Major, until in desperation to be rid of them, the uk elected New Labour in 1997. After 12 years of these pension robbers, war-mongers and cash for peerages fat-cats. The UK is BROKE. The Tories sold everything they could get thier hands on to the private sector, and Labour has spent everything else.
Sold the gold reserves at rock bottom prices after flooding the market, wind-fall taxes, pension grab, stealth taxes, and the economic collapse pouring money into the banks. Labour now printing money no longer covered by world bank agreements, down grading of UK borrowing rating.
There is only despair under a union government.
Scotlands only hope is the SNP.

Alba gu brath
28

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 01/07/2009 05:08:03
# 4 Jerry Springer

"Scotland will always be either a subsidy junkie from the Treasury in London or Brussels, but would never be able to survive as a full, stand alone independent nation."

The last 2 GERS do not bear out your assertion that the rest of the UK subsidises Scotland. Both reports clearly showed that Scotland pulls more than its share of the dead weight that is the UK.

Typical of most unionist these days that since their arguments don't have an economic leg to stand on they instead opt for making assertions that have no basis in reality.

What colour is the sky in your world Jerry? Is it Blue like the rest of us?


29

donald,

glasgow 01/07/2009 05:40:46
London spivs need the money. Labour flunkeys will do as they are told.
30

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 01/07/2009 05:59:00
Scottish Conservative leader Annabel Goldie added that if voters want independence they will have their chance to vote for it in the next general election.


Does this mean then we are back to the old route to Independence ?
Should the SNP take the most amount of votes and seats at next years Westminster election will the unionists except this as a result with no need to hold a referendum?

Will the only question therefore in a referendum be the terms of the Independence settlement?
31

Castaway™ ,

01/07/2009 06:18:51
#4 Ref GERS - Why Scotland can do better on her own-Professor Andrew Hughes Hallet................. First, since no-one actually keeps national accounts for Scotland, no-one can ever know for sure what the true fiscal deficit is. The best we can do is estimate the deficit on the basis of estimates of revenues and expenditures made in the General Expenditures and Revenues (Gers) framework. But those estimates must depend on the assumptions and conventions adopted by those who made them.......1st March 2007:: http://tinyurl.com/m4xwam

Dr Andrew Goudie, chief economic adviser, insisted that estimates in GERS were as accurate as could be expected given the figures available to his team. BBC 16 January 2007


32

dunedin bully wee 1877,

01/07/2009 06:41:31
3 Rufus


“Looks like independence is a busted flush.”


Really?

Why then is support for the Government’s wording of the referendum receiving the highest support it ever has?
BBC Poll
“However, the pollsters also asked a separate question asking whether people agreed or disagreed that "the Scottish Government should negotiate a settlement with the government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state" - the preferred wording of the Scottish Government for a future referendum.
In this case, 42% agreed with the statement, with 50% opposed.”


From “UK Polling Report”

TNS System Three/Herald (1)??/02/08 For 38 against 40
YouGov/Sunday Times (1)30/01/08 29 55
TNS System Three/Herald (1)29/10/08 35 43
TNS System Three/Herald (1)1/07/08 39 41
TNS System Three/Herald (1)/04/08 41 40
TNS System Three/Herald (1)01/12/07 40 44
TNS System Three/Herald (1)23/08/07 35 50
ICM/Scotsman (1)30/04/07 35 55
YouGov/Sunday Times (1)20/04/07 33 50

33

Herry Oaksters,

01/07/2009 06:44:00
Elmer %12 Fudd spews."A year ago Labour offered the SNP a referendum on a straight question and they ran away," he said. "Alex Salmond will only ever consider a referendum that is rigged.

Reading Ian Gray,s pathetic comments brings it home as to how deluded and negative not to mention childish and extremely boring the london labour controlled muppet in holyrood really is. Does Gray honestly think the public are as thick as him?The man is a total clown.
34

McNasty,

Edinburgh 01/07/2009 07:05:55
Is that permanent grimace on Ian Gray's face natural or does he have to work at it?
35

jockstrap,

cyprus 01/07/2009 07:09:03
#16 I'm over 65 and have supported the SNP since at least 1964 when I joined the party so don't class all over 65's as unionists.I just hope I live long enough to see Independence
36

Stan Butler,

01/07/2009 07:22:47


Who decides the wording of the question?

How often should the referendum be held?


37

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 01/07/2009 07:27:05
40
The government of the day
Till we get the result we want!
38

John S,

01/07/2009 07:30:38
Annabel Goldie added that if voters want independence they will have their chance to vote for it in the next general election.

If one or more of the political parties and independent standing candidate(s) are advocating independence for Scotland as part of their manifesto will all their votes/seats count together to achieve the any of the conditions below ?

50% of the actual votes in elections for the SP or
50% of the seats in the SP parliament.

50% of the actual Scottish votes in elections for the UK Parliament or
50% of the Scottish constituency seats in the UK Parliament.

Will this be accepted as the endorsement for independence ?
39

Stan Butler,

01/07/2009 07:35:25

The SNP carried out extensive research on how to word the question to ensure the maximum number of yes votes.

Will they publish the details of the research?

If not, why not?


40

Jerry Springer,

01/07/2009 07:35:28
36 Bully Boy

Your formatting is all over the shop.

What on earth was that meant to be?

What a mess.
41

Jerry Springer,

01/07/2009 07:43:23
Oh dear.

The 'Sutherland Crofters' were just on the radio demanding a seperate National Conversation for the Highlands only.

Forget independence for Scotland.

We want independence for highlanders now.

Also independence for Edinburgh (why should we subsidise all those workshy weegies?).
42

dunedin bully wee 1877,

01/07/2009 07:44:56
45 Rufus


I realise that numbers are not exactly your forte, (note that is not the same as “40”).


Have you worked out that 200 is not very close to 1,109,001 yet?

43

mad world,

01/07/2009 07:56:12
Fully support the need for a Referendum, though the question for me is what happens after.. If the vote is YES then fine, Scotland can go its own way.. but if it is NO then what? Assuming that the SNP will still have a large input are we going to have endless years of the SNP spoiling to pick a fight with Westminster!
44

dunedin bully wee 1877,

01/07/2009 07:58:19
47 Rufus

If you are referring to GMS on Radio Scotland that particular report lacked any pretence of balance and, not for the first time, that particular programme is the subject of a number of complaints to the BBC.
45

dunedin bully wee 1877,

01/07/2009 08:13:32
49 mad world,

Despite a “YES” vote in the 1979 referendum, and as a result of unionist gerrymandering, the cause of a Scottish Parliament was not lost entirely, but merely delayed for a further 20 years.

Should the Government lose the referendum in 2010, the SNP will hardly go away, but will do as they did back in 1979, regroup, and eventually come back ever stronger than they were before.
46

Shug the Dug,

Edinburgh 01/07/2009 08:28:25
The simple arithmetical fact is that as the poll on which the above article is based only sampled 1010 people, this means only some 505 people voted against negotiating for an independent state of Scotland.

After the 1979 Referendum, MP George Cunningham's gerrymandering proposal required 40% of the electorate to vote Yes, thus effectively counting abstainers as No voters. 32.9% of the electorate had voted Yes. In 2008 the total registered electorate (according to the National Stats office) was 3,885,148. Applying Labour's logic of 1979, in light of the pathetically small sample, should not the disenfranchised, those not sampled, be counted as 'Cunningham' abstainers; thereby giving a adjusted percentage against independence of 0.0129982178% of the registered Scots electorate.

Aren't Stats fun?

As a London Stockbroker friend of m ine always used to say when presented by figures from his analysts: "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics!"

47

Jam Tarts 1874,

On the Rebound 01/07/2009 08:37:22
Give the tartan tories their vote, once they are blown out of the water on independence the rest of us can get on with the serious business of living in the union which has been great for Scotland.
48

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 01/07/2009 08:38:14
In Gray and Mike Russell were interviewed on BBC Radio Scotland on this issue yesterday. Gray made his usual dog's breakfast of it, sounding like a spoilt bairn, babbling in the huff, grasping at straws, whereas Russell was calm, measured, coherent and confident. What a contrast.

It seems that the media are not expecting Gray to last much longer (surprise surprise). I thought he was supposed to be a worthy successor to Wendy with the planet-sized brain? (couldn't be any worse, or so I thought)!

There are already a few articles introducing the idea of Jim Murphy as the next Labour leader (and FM) at Holyrood (if, as expected he loses his Eastwood seat next year). He is being portrayed as the perfect foil to Salmond and expected to be the next FM (although it is conceded that it will take at least four years to dislodge Salmond).

Jim Murphy as FM.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
49

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 01/07/2009 08:42:21
"Give the tartan tories their vote, once they are blown out of the water on independence the rest of us can get on with the serious business of living in the union which has been great for Scotland"

Yup, and even better for England. Thanks for the cash, here's your pocket money.....

BTW, why do you support Hearts since the Union is better? Surely you should be supporting Manchester United, since they are the best team in the whole of the UK (and run by a Scotsman funnily enough, just like the UK government of present).
50

,

01/07/2009 08:43:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
51

Nevsky;,

Moscow 01/07/2009 08:47:31
53 Andrew*

'Tartan tories'? That term is 20 years out of date. Is everyone as out of date as you, how quaint old England is; ahh bless!
52

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 01/07/2009 08:49:25
55

Please refer to 50 and please re-read my comment. I await your apology.
53

Herry Oaksters,

01/07/2009 08:52:51
Ian Gray please take a long hard look at your pathetic performance on you tube and ask yourself WTF anyone with a pulse should vote for an idiot.
Also thanks for the laughs at FMQ,s some of your mantra is just bizarre and at the same time hilarious when wee Eck makes you look stupid.

Jim Murphy as FM now that is a good one ,ha,ha ,ha,ha.
54

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 01/07/2009 08:56:07
when the Act of Succession is finaly repealed people like Jambo and the Rangers hordes will have very little reason to want to defend the union
55

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 01/07/2009 08:58:38
It is obvious, as some posters have pointed out already, that the unionist parties are terrified of the number of scots who will vote for independence. This is regardless of whether the vote for or against prevails. If, as expected, at least one third of scots vote for independence, this registers a massive proportion of the population with no interest in remaining British. At the very least, this would be recognised and they would have to respond with Devo-max (everything except defence and foreign affairs). All politicians know this. Salmond has nothing to lose by losing a referendum (he is, after all a gradualist). The unionists are terrified of another step toward independence. They would rather hide their heads in the sand and hope it will all go away.
56

Nevsky;,

Moscow 01/07/2009 09:09:05
56 Andrew*

Apologies..didn't notice his/it's post.
57

Seannair,

Oban 01/07/2009 09:21:51
Debate on Scotsman articles is presently demeaned by the consistently assinine contributions from Jerry Springer.This cringing unionist appears to derive great comfort from his claim that after 300 years of government from the south Scotland is a basket case, dependent on handputs and begging bowls. That is the pitiful status quo that he appears to want to continue.

If they think that the result of a referendum is so certain what are they afraid of?
58

JimC,

Kilmarnock 01/07/2009 09:32:40
What I find more worrying about this so called poll is the level of publicity it had been given by the drip drip feed from the BBC and the pro-unionist newspapers. What makes this poll any different from a hundred others? Come to a deprived area and ask another 1,000 people and I bet you get a whole now outcome.
59

JimC,

Kilmarnock 01/07/2009 09:37:40
that should read "Whole new outcome"
60

Queen D,

01/07/2009 09:39:47
Just had to return to youtube to watch Iain Grey attempt to dig the labour Party out of a hole over the " bring it on " debacle.
Boy ! That was fun and I have to give top marks for Gordon Brewers efforts.( and I don't do that lightly!)
61

mr broon,

Edinburgh 01/07/2009 09:50:20
It would be very naive of Unionists to believe that the Nationalists will simply disappear like "snaw aff a dyke" every time they have a setback?

This political party is in it for the long haul.

Unionists will always have to fight a rear-guard battle to prevent the Nationalists taking Scotland out of this unitary state whereas, the Nationalists, only have to bide their time.

Unionist politicians keep repeating that the constitutional question is not important during a recession?

Yet, whenever opinion polls are published indicating support either one way, OR the other, the Unionists foolishly jump at the result of the voting intentions of a tiny sample of 1,110 respondents?

Would it not be better to issue a press release, and instruct others to keep their opinions to themselves?

Once again the Nationalists enjoy the oxygen of publicity over the snap judgement of a few people!
62

Cracker06,

Livingston 01/07/2009 09:53:13
I believe that the opposition parties are dealing with this referendum issue all wrong. It's no longer just a question of whether we as a people want independence what is frustrating is that they are not getting a chance to voice our opinion on the subject.

While instinctively I believe independence could be a good thing I don't think that the SNP have won the arguement yet. So far there has been lots of scare tactics blaming Westminster for holding us back or warning us that without independence the big, bad Tories will get us. However they haven't told us any details on how the split would happen, how the UK assets would be divided, etc. Up until now it has been mainly vague assumptions that we are hearing.

Let us have the debate now, let us see the pros and cons of independence and allow the people to decide where they want their country to be.
63

The Scotchman,

01/07/2009 10:16:42
- "The Scottish first minister is considerably more popular in Scotland than either Gordon Brown or David Cameron, a BBC poll has suggested.

- The poll, commissioned from ICM, found more than half of those questioned thought Alex Salmond was doing a "good" or "very good" job.

- But only 37% believed Mr Brown was performing well as UK prime minister." (BBC, 1st July 2009)

http://tinyurl.com/maymj4

And quite right too. What a great job Salmond and the SNP are doing for Scotland.
64

Farky,

Edinburgh 01/07/2009 10:26:02
SNP!
65

Phil C,

01/07/2009 10:34:21
The undemocratic unionists are quacking on about how the question should be worded, whether we should have referendum at all, who should get independence etc etc. They're playing for time, playing with our futures. Despite the unionist ballyhoo about very few wanting independence, they know it could be too close to call and there is a risk of the vote going the other way.

I think we should have a 'yes or no, winner takes all' referendum in May 2012, a year after the Scottish elections; but set the date now. It gives everyone plenty time to prepare and there won't be any sudden decisions when the time suits one or other camp. We will have seen a full term of SNP government, albeit in a minority. By then the Tories will have settled into power down south, the economy will be back on the up, and Scotland can deal with grown-ups at Westminster, instead of cabbage-for-brains folk like Murphy, Brown, Darling and their twisted colleagues in cabinet.

66

Phil C,

01/07/2009 10:44:24
#75 I just wish.......

Edinburgh - The fund that invests income from Scotland's petroleum and gas riches for future pensions on Wednesday posted a 4.8 per cent drop in its first-quarter return, and said international markets remained volatile.

The drop in return equalled 66 billion kroner (10.1 billion dollars) - measured in international currency, the Norwegian central bank said.

67

Phil C,

01/07/2009 10:46:04
#76 (sorry).......The drop in return equalled 66 billion kroner (10.1 billion dollars) - measured in international currency, the Scottish central bank said.
68

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 01/07/2009 10:52:32
2010 will look very different from 2009. Expect the UK economic model/system to look even worse. Since it's a prime cause of the present economic turmoil. Every era has it's political dynamics: kingdoms, republics, empires, european powers, colonial global empires, oligarchies, dictatorships ... Confederations are the new dynamic to pull out of terminal economic tailspin. Asian nations are moving so. Greater Scandinavia works this way as does very decentralised Switzerland. It's a scalable construct.

The Libdems have come out for Federalism. Where is their thinking and written proposals on it? For though politics are more than intellectual (and economic) concepts, it can't be devoid of them. Be bold, Tavish, and join up your thinking to align with the SNPs PRACTICAL Independence program.
69

The Sprucer,

01/07/2009 11:09:45

I just find it rather odd that 58% want a vote on Independence while only 28% back it. Very strange indeed.

Then again I think I'd like to find out more details about exactly where these people were being contacted. If we're talking about the West of Scotland (or England and Wales as previously) then there's a good chance the vote will be low. But are people on this blog prepared to tell me that 58% of people in this country would want a referendum on Independence just to say no? I hardly think so.
70

The Sprucer,

01/07/2009 11:12:31

Funny how all the arguments on this blog repeat (on both sides) the same old boring mantra regarding whose oil it is and how much money we stand to gain or lose. I thought running your country would be something of much more importance than that. It is something that we should take pride in doing. Obviously some people are not willing to take the responsibility.
71

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 01/07/2009 11:14:03
The SNP question was written by a team of physchologists and tested exstensively to produce the highest possible yes answer.

Can we not have " Do you wish scotland to become Independent from the UK Yes or No?"
72

The Sprucer,

01/07/2009 11:17:12

#50 You should read your history - then I seriously doubt that you would even have the stupidity to make callous remarks like that.

Scotland deserves its rightful place amongst it neighbours. You can keep your lowlife unionism.
73

Darien,

Panama 01/07/2009 11:24:14
#79 Yok: "Be bold, Tavish, and join up your thinking to align with the SNPs PRACTICAL Independence program."

This is all it really needs to move quickly toward independence and out of the UK mire. That is for one of the Scots-Unionist groups to accept that continuing with a bust UK and ever more desperate Westminster machine is only ever going to further hold back Scotland.

For either Tavish or Annabel, the personal advantages achievable via independence would far exceed what they would ever achieve within a bust and discredited British union. For instance, positions of Foreign Minister, Defence Minister etc in an independent Scotland awaits those of sufficient calibre in a coalition Gov. And just think of all the international positions, responsibilities and tasks to take on as Scotland reinvents herself as a real, vibrant, complete nation.

Choices: a perennial bust and socio-econ basket case UK with only the prospect of continued regional status for Scotland the psuedo nation; or real nationhood and the chance to rebuild and redevelop Scotland as a modern confident successful nation, to play its ful part on the world stage, as we can and must. Come on Tavish, go for it.
74

JCA REID,

Annan 01/07/2009 11:39:27
Obviously for the pro-Unionists the result they want is in if they are dropping objections to a referendum.

Although I do not agree with all of the SNP's policies it is they & only they that want to put Scotland first & try & do what is best for Scotland's interests. At least our problems would be our own. To say that the SNP would turn Scotland into a "Brigadoon" is a fallacy for that is waht exists under this "Union". You can have your Pipe Bands & Tartan tins of Shortbread....but don't you get any ideas of anything else!
Back in 1707 99% of the populace were against the Union. Our trade with Europe was totally destroyed by Westminster as it didn't suit its purpose. Yes we then traded with the colonies.... a system based entirely on slavery & ruthless, racist exploitation.

Time for this entire sorry saga to be ended for everyone's sake.
75

redcliffe62,

01/07/2009 11:42:54
the fact less than a quarter of people thought london should look after taxes, presemably including revenues from oil tells me that issue will be cranked up before the poll.
"should revenues from oil go to consolidated revenue in london to pay for nuclear weapons, or be used in scotland to create jobs where the wealth was generated from?" would get 85% approval i would imagine!
frankly i am amazed after the spend spend spend philosophy from labour that anyone can say labour troughers pty ltd should look after anything, but that remains a personal choice statistically and directly related to the cranial capacity of those questioned.
76

Joburg Pete,

01/07/2009 11:52:36
This is interesting - I have been to Scotland, not a bad place at all. I preferred Britain though, London was quite amazing.
I didnt even know that Scotland was under the British rule, I thought Scotland was a free nation.
77

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 01/07/2009 12:22:25
Our unionist friends have painted themselves into a very large corner i.e.

Either the Calman proposals are very light and require no referendum or they are very broad and do.

It's fun watching them tie themselves into knots.

So if Independence has no chance why not hold a referendum? We all know the reason and it is because they are not sure of the outcome. If elmer fudd thought it would be a cake walk he would be right in there.
78

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 01/07/2009 12:35:34
Iain Gray just doesn't get it.

Simple repeating that Wendy had made an offer to "bring it on" 18 months ago does not mean that he can ignore the majority will to have a referendum. A referendum, that they are scared of losing!
79

Tartan Viking,

01/07/2009 12:36:48
I kid ye not, but on yeaterday's Good Morning Scotland programme it was the exact opposite. They claimed the majority of people were against independence. Another BBC unionist lie?
80

Darien,

Panama 01/07/2009 12:42:57
#88 Joburg Pete: "I thought Scotland was a free nation."

Nope, Scotland is telt whit tae dae by wir guid freends doon sooth. Yon nukleer submarines fir a stert, an how the oil money's spent tae, an buying up bust banks wi most o' their toxic debts ootside Scotland, an illegal wars etc etc. Its awe richt though, yon Dave-laddie says he will treat us a' wi respect efter he taks ower fi Maggie Broon. Naebody in Scotland votes Tory but that's a' richt, they huv oor best interests at hert, an Dave-laddie says he's got a man-date, an wir too hopeless tae govern wirsels completely an a that.
81

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 01/07/2009 12:43:01
37 It's a bit like the EU asking the Irish people to vote until they get the right answer. we will do the same. We only have to win once, you Unionists need to win every time!!
82

Allan(handofgod137),

01/07/2009 12:48:40
This is hardly a story, it's been obvious for some time that the only place the desire for an independant Scotland exists is in the deluded minds of the gnats and their supporters. The only thing sadder is the way in which the cybergnats are trying to give this a posative spin.
83

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 01/07/2009 12:50:50
91 She and Labour were all over the place on it, after elmer took over it was back to formula London response.
84

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 01/07/2009 12:54:31
95 Oh jings thats an impressive narrative, so if that is the case why not hold the referendum and and if as you say the majority are opposed you'll have nothing to fear?
85

Nevsky;,

Moscow 01/07/2009 12:54:52
95 Allan*

ALERT-DELUDED OSTRICH UNIONIST-ALERT
86

Yeah1,

01/07/2009 12:55:34
#92

"I kid ye not, but on yeaterday's Good Morning Scotland programme it was the exact opposite. They claimed the majority of people were against independence."

Did you actually read this article? The majority of people in Scotland ARE against independence - 50% to 42% according to the opinion poll.

The majority refered to in this article is for those who want a vote ON independence, not for those who would vote FOR independence.
87

Allan(handofgod137),

01/07/2009 12:55:45
#97 £I'd welcome the referendum, but fat n'ecks the one running scared.
88

Allan(handofgod137),

01/07/2009 12:57:38
#95 Deluded cybergnat troll! Do you receive the messages from gnat central by phone, e-mail or just beamed directly into your head?
89

Nevsky;,

Moscow 01/07/2009 13:00:05
99 Yeah*

Just a majority not and no longer 'the vast majority'...conceeding ground already...great stuff.

The campaign has not even started yet and don't think for 1 minute that the SNP are not capable of turning over that slender lead.

They can!

90

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 01/07/2009 13:03:30
100 Oh right so when the SNP are going to table a bill for a referendum the unionist opposition say they will vote against it?

So in what way is Alex Salmond running scared? You do see the contradiction in your narrative?
91

Nevsky;,

Moscow 01/07/2009 13:09:27
The SNP have had a consistent position regarding the referendum...it was always going to be 2010.

The unionists when 'bendy Wendy' began screaming 'bring it on' could not contain themselves...every single unionist on these boards were calling for a referendum.

Now thay all seem to have performed a u-turn and are aginst it.

If (as they believe) the Scots will vote against it then why are they not backing the vote and why are they going against the clear wishes of the Scottish electorate??

I suspect for the same reasons that Brown is not going to hold the Glasgow by-election anytime soon...he is terrified to test the electorate because he knows in Scotland an SNP victory in another labour heartland would spread total dismay through the Scottish Labour ranks and add a hige momentum to the SNP!
92

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 01/07/2009 13:11:30
I am in favour of a referendum but a question for the Nationalists. Would they be happy to have the referendum with a non emotive clear and concise question agreed by both camps and set by a third party. No use of the word negociate, designed to confuse people into thinking the decision is not final and no use of the emotive word seperate. i think thta would be fair.
93

Canny Mann,

The Kingdom 01/07/2009 13:12:33
#69 from outerspace,
I dont really care what your figures attempt to say. The BBC program, explained that the revenues from oil were put in a fund, which then bought into blue chip and other well known brands stocks. Okay so the markets are volitile and may still be prone to the scraping along the bottom of the market. However without doubt Norway having bought when the stock prices had dropped, will profit as they rise once more. You have to remember that like the SNP, Norway are in it for the long haul. Norways pensioners are assured a future, the pensioners here in the UK do not have that confidence, due to Brown raiding the pension funds. The UK is broke, the union is a busted flush and no country having gained independence has ever applied/returned governance to a former ruler.

Scotland will once again become independant, it is only a matter of when.

Alba gu brath...
94

Electric Hermit,

01/07/2009 13:20:19
105
All Politicians are the same

"Would they be happy to have the referendum with a non emotive clear and concise question..."

The SNP-approved wording is all these things. It describes exactly what the choice is in plain language.
95

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 01/07/2009 13:23:01
105 The question the SNP have in the national conversation is so that it is legal and within the confines of the Scotland Act, and is such is not a trick question as Elmer Fudd likes to say.

Holyrood only has the power for a consultitve referendum as the constitution is reserved to Westminister
96

wullieboy,

Glasgow 01/07/2009 13:26:42
I understand that, due to the constraints placed upon the authority of Holyrood, the wording as proposed by the SNP is the only wording that would be acceptable under the terms of the Scottish Parliament Act.
So it doesn't relly matter what the unionists think. This question has been carefully crafted in order that it is not illegal.
97

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 01/07/2009 13:29:42
105 Not a difficult question to understand:-

Put a cross (X) in the appropriate box

I AGREE that the Scottish Government should negotiate a settlement with
the Government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an
independent state.


OR

I DO NOT AGREE that the Scottish Government should negotiate a
settlement with the Government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland
becomes an independent state.
98

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 01/07/2009 13:30:26
109 Indeed it is Sir.
99

ukrefusenik,

camelon 01/07/2009 13:44:12
as for polls , i have never been asked my opinion about independence by any organisation . i signed the membership forms those many years ago , but thats about it . extrapolation from a representative sample ?, if you were to ask the question in moray or dundee or fife , you might get a different result , than if you ask on princess street or outside ibrox . my vote is my opinion in any electoral contest , including referenda , bwing it on !
100

Observer,,

Glasgow 01/07/2009 13:51:32
None of us actually have any idea how many people want independence. And there is only one way to find out. You would think that the unionist parties would be desperate to get the referendum over so it was done and dusted.

The fact they are unanimously opposed to it and seek to thwart even presentation of the bill indicates to me that they think they would lose it.

But we are all merely speculating here. We don't know what the outcome would be, we only know who's got the balls to do it, and who hasn't.
101

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 01/07/2009 13:57:17
#110 The problem with the word negotiate is that the perception amomgst some of the public is that their decision is not final. People are used to negotiations breaking down and nothing happening. That is why it is in the question to increase the yes vote.
102

Electric Hermit,

01/07/2009 13:58:24
114
It Came From Outer Space

You must have your head on upside down. Alex Salmond has been totally consistent in his intention to hold a referendum. Bendy Wendy changed her mind on this so often even she couldn't remember what her position was.

103

mad world,

01/07/2009 13:58:29
I'm confused! and thats not difficult on here!

Given that the figure do appear to say that the oil revenue over the last 30 years would have been needed by an Independent Scotland to maintain it's level of spending, with apparently only 8 years of which was in surplus.. Where would the money have come from to invest in a Norwegian style 'oil fund'. I just get the feeling you dont get to spend the money twice ( although young Gordon does seam to be doing a good job of that ) Also isnt the first x amount of years taken up by covering the initial expenditure of getting the oil?
104

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 01/07/2009 14:03:53
113 Indeed, if you have faith in your argument you should have nothing to fear from the poll. The unionist tribe have boxed themselves into a tight spot.

They have conceded the political and moral high ground to the SNP, hold the high ground and win the war.
105

bluepict,

01/07/2009 14:08:41
Inch by inch, Independence creeps ever closer!
106

Geomac 1,

Scotland 01/07/2009 14:10:00
Poll is NOT valid - no-one asked me!!
107

mr broon,

Edinburgh 01/07/2009 14:10:49
Norway is the third largest oil producer in the world after Saudi Arabia and the Russian Federation.

Each day it pumps out 3 million barrels of oil from the Norwegian Sector of the North Sea. It also produces vast quantities of natural gas from these oil fields which it exports to Denmark, North Germany, the Baltic States, Sweden AND the United Kingdom.

The current value of the Norwegian Oil(and gas)Fund is $US280 billion.

Separate from the Oil Fund, in 10 of the past 16 years Norway has had a fiscal surplus. According to the Financial Times Norway, like most countries, also has financial reserves of some $US88 billion.

Norwegians have amongst the highest disposable incomes in the world, and like the Japanese and Germans, are obsessed with saving: in excess of 30 percent of their annual income.

After Saudi Arabia, the Norwegian Sector of the North Sea has the most proven reserves of oil and gas which have yet to be extracted. Norway has deliberately
limited its production of oil and gas,in contrast to the UK Sector of the North Sea.

Norway has also discovered oil(and gas) reserves off Spitzbergen Island in the Arctic Circle.

Norway is also in partnership with Iceland and Denmark in exploring for oil and gas in Icelandic, and Greenland territorial waters.

108

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 01/07/2009 14:14:08
116 I think everybody and there dug know what the SNP stand for and want an independent Scotland, it does say an independent state so the arguement from Elmer is as hollow point as only he could argue.
109

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 01/07/2009 14:17:17
119 Indeed, a mixture of new voting system + new tech + changes to the ballot paper = confused voter.

My mum did struggle with it, as she was used to the traditional 1 X only for fifty years.
110

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 01/07/2009 14:21:41
119 Also a lot of votes were discounted automatically by the kit although the vote was legal, such as marking just one side of the ballot paper.
111

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 01/07/2009 14:22:12
#125

Why then does thta question poll higher than do you want Scotland to be an Independnet state? If it doesn't matter why will the SNP not remove the word negotiate?
112

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 01/07/2009 14:29:04
128 They have to use the words very carefully to keep within the confines of the Scotland Act. As i said it's not a trick question, do you think folk voting wouldn't no what they were voting for?
113

Electric Hermit,

01/07/2009 14:34:56
120
It Came From Outer Space

"The answer is that Scotland would have had no 'Oil Fund'. We would be running a huge deficit."

So the worst-case scenario with independence is no worse than the reality as part of the UK.

Fine! That's the economic case for staying in the union disposed of. Now we can focus on all the other excellent reasons for seceding.

114

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 01/07/2009 14:35:51
#129

Some of them, yes. I ask again why does the yes vote poll higher with the word negotiate in?
115

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 01/07/2009 14:43:04
131 I have no idea, if you do you should get to your point.
116

Electric Hermit,

01/07/2009 14:46:00
128
All Politicians are the same

"Why then does thta question poll higher than do you want Scotland to be an Independnet state? If it doesn't matter why will the SNP not remove the word negotiate?"

It is a question of honesty and accuracy. In the referendum people are no voting for an "independent state". They are voting for the Scottish government to negotiate a settlement which would, if approved by the Scottish electorate, lead to secession from the union and the creation of an independent state.

117

Nevsky;,

Moscow 01/07/2009 14:47:02
Load of rubbish. 30 years of investment would have totally transformed Scotland from engineering right through to Universities, maritime fleets and goodness knows what else.

Basing figures on a Scotland within the UK (with 20 years of UK and not Scottish policies)is pointless...totaly and utterly pointless.
118

Electric Hermit,

01/07/2009 14:53:00
131
All Politicians are the same

"I ask again why does the yes vote poll higher with the word negotiate in?"

There is no way to tell from the information available. I would speculate that people prefer the more cautious tone. They like the idea of negotiation rather than a precipitate rush into independence.

Or perhaps they just realise that the SNP-approved question more accurately and honestly describes the options. This would surely be true of those with enough knowledge of the constitutional niceties to be aware that the referendum is not decisive.

A bald question such as, "Do you want independence?", while having the advantage of simplicity, is deceiving in that it seems to imply that independence will automatically follow from a yes vote.

119

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 01/07/2009 15:21:01
#135

You are saying that Independnece would not result from a yes vote?
120

Electric Hermit,

01/07/2009 15:27:32
136
All Politicians are the same

"You are saying that Independnece would not result from a yes vote?"

Read more slowly. I said quite clearly that independence would not AUTOMATICALLY follow from a yes vote.

This is an important distinction. We can't expect people to make a final decision on such a momentous matter until they know the terms of the negotiated settlement. The referendum is about giving the Scottish government a mandate to negotiate that settlement.

It is all but certain that secession would be the eventual outcome of a yes vote. But it would not be an immediate consequence. The SNP-approved question makes this clear.

121

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 01/07/2009 15:49:17
#137

Are you saying that there would be another referendum once the terms were known?
122

Elephant,

Linlithgow 01/07/2009 15:50:41
Surely even ardent SNP supporters concede that the question is over-complicated and oddly put. It also leaves too much unexplained. For example what if the Scottish Government at the point of negotiation turned out not to be SNP.... on account of a massive scandal or popular collapse as Labour is currently enduring! And what does 'negotiation' actually mean - compromise in my language. Surely a more straightforward question is possible. And surely if everyone's being dragged to the ballot box they could provide some other alternatives.
123

Miss H,

01/07/2009 15:54:57
139 It is not complicated at all. It is asking people do you want us to open negotiations on independence – yes or no.

It is not saying do you want us to declare independence because the SNP is not proposing to simply declare independence. That’s not the way things are done in the modern world.

People are entitled to know what the terms of independence would be before being asked to make a binding decision.
124

Miss H,

01/07/2009 16:02:45
82 OK we ask your question 'Do you wish scotland to become Independent from the UK Yes or No?"'

If we get a yes answer then what? Does Scotland just declare independence?

125

Miss H,

01/07/2009 16:05:40
105 No the SNP would not agree to hold a referendum which in any way implied that the decision was final. That would be illegal. The Scottish Parliament does not have the power to hold a binding referendum.
126

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 01/07/2009 16:14:04
#141

No you go to the westminster Government and say, the people of Scotland wish to be Independent. we have asked and the people have spoken.. we didn't ask if they would like us to talk about it. We asked what they wanted. Of course the SNP know that question costs them 4% points so they are not going to ask it.
127

Miss H,

01/07/2009 16:33:39
143 If the SNP went to Westminster and said look we held a referendum and asked the Scottish people what they wished for Westminster would say OK well we suggest you write to Santa then.

I guess from your monikor that you imagine you see yourself as someone who is dedicated to unveiling politicians cynical ploys and you imagine that the SNP's chosen wording is a cynical ploy to sneak through independence by conning 4% of the electorate by using the word negotiate.

Let me explain to you why you are wrong and why the SNP does not have a secret plan to con people into voting for independence.

Its because independence achieved in such a way would not work - in fact it would have the potential to be a complete disaster. That is not what we want.

128

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 01/07/2009 16:40:12
#144

There is no difference other than the 4% you get. Do you deny the extensive field testing of questions to get the highest yes vote? If you go to westminster and say the Scottish people wish us to enter negotiations they could still say go and write to Santa.
129

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 01/07/2009 16:42:32
#144

I never accused anyone of having a devious plan, I just want afair question. The word negotiate is proven to swing the vote in one way, just as the word seperate will swing it in the other.
130

Miss H,

01/07/2009 17:07:12
145 Before asking people to deny something it is common to establish what it is that they are denying. I am not in a position to deny that there has been any extensive psychological testing of the question because I am unaware of any suggestion that there has been. Perhaps you could provide your source for that statement.

You have certainly got hold of the wrong end of the stick on the story in general. Support for independence is not static - it varies for a whole range of circumstances. You seem to believe that because one poll which asked the question using the Scottish Government's wording got a 4% higher yes vote than another which didn't this somehow proves that the word 'negotiate' is wholly responsible for the 4% difference. That is ludicrous.

I accept however that you don't like the word negotiate. Lets replace it then. Perhaps you would prefer the word discuss? What would you be happy with?

Whatever the question is, it must give the Scottish Government a mandate to open negotiations on independence because that is what is being sought by the Scottish Government. That can be phrased however people want to phrase it and will be decided by the Scottish Parliament as a whole, not by the SNP.
131

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 01/07/2009 17:18:20
147

How about? AGREE that the Scottish Government should negotiate a settlement with
the Government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland seperates from the United Kingdom? You have your mandate and both emotive words are in.

I am friends with one of the physcologists who designed and tested the question.
132

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 01/07/2009 17:20:34
#148

I agree with you which is why I want the word negotiation removed as it is misleading.
133

Buckpool Loon,

Cheshire 01/07/2009 17:51:18
Miss H, if the Scottish people give you, or any Scottish Government in power at the time, a mandate to initiate the demand, and to oversee the process of independence, what legality takes precedence over that mandate?
134

Miss H,

01/07/2009 17:53:40
150 No that question will not do because Scotland will not be seperating from the United Kingdom. The Union of Crowns will not be affected.

I suggest your psychologist mate is winding you up.

SNP HQ would no more spring for the services of a psychologist to draw up the referendum question than they would for the services of a feng shui specialist to design the new HQ.

The question is there to be amended.
135

Miss H,

01/07/2009 17:55:21
152 The constitution is reserved. If there is the slightest dubiety about the referendum Westminster will not recognise it.

That is another reason why the SNP is not trying to rig anything. It has to be completely transparent.
136

Darien,

Panama 01/07/2009 18:05:39
#156 Miss H:

Talking about rigging and transparency, any news on the black bags from Glenrothes?

"Dubiety" and "Westminster". Mmmm. The two words seem to fit quite well together. A dubious Westminster? Or perfidious albion even.
137

Buckpool Loon,

Cheshire 01/07/2009 18:40:28
Granted the 'Constitution' is reserved to Westminster, but the mandate is to reject that constitution by a sovereign people.

Are you advocating we must negotiate with Westminster for the right to be independent?
138

Eve,

Scotland 01/07/2009 19:51:46
#26 Fletty73: How do we know that the people asked acualy go out and vote!!!

As far as I'm aware the questions havenae been disclosed, so you don't know if the question was bais or had negative matterial in it. Unless their is someone on this site that has been asked the questions, then, we'll kniver know.

Another intersting theroy is some people cannae make up their minds. So they say Yes to refredum and then no or don't know to the independence question.

It's very confusing that more people support the referendum because normally when you read about the unionist they are speaking out dead against it. So maybe more of the "I don't knows" and the "I don't cares" some times say no to hummer the caller.
139

Eve,

Scotland 01/07/2009 19:59:17
This poll probly has enough credabilty to suggest that most people in Scotland want a refendum on Scottish Independence.

BUT it can not indekate what the results would be to such a referendum. As you can't have the vote before the said referendum date. The deccison to have a referdum is taken before the vote takes place no at the same time.

Push ~1,000 people is no way nere enough people to ask such an important question to. Why on earth should they be the only people to ask that question?
140

Observer,,

Glasgow 01/07/2009 20:00:56
158 I don't think the SNP or any of us that support independence are saying that Westminster has the right to say yea or nay to Scottish independence. But I think it's realistic to take this incrementally. We are not having a revolution here. If the referendum result is positive that takes us on to the next stage.
141

Ugly George,

Damascus 01/07/2009 20:14:20
I hope you Jocks will not be too offended at a mere Sassenach sticking his oar in.

But why don't you ask the people :

Do you believe sovereignty over Scotland and the Scots should be vested in ;

A- The Scottish Electorate represented by It's parliament at Holyrood.

B- The UK Electorate represented by It's Parliament at Westminster.

Even allowing for the endemic brain-rot of the Labour voting masses.

There could only be one answer.

An answer that would instantly reverse the current situation with an alternative status quo - where powers that are now reserved by Westminster become powers that are devolved to Westminster.

Transforming the politics of your region from a bun fight between pro and anti Union factions, to a forum where the better governance of your patch can be debated rationally a with much of the bitterness and inertia that the present arrangement pre-ordains.
142

Ugly George,

01/07/2009 20:18:08
insert at end -

removed
143

Sgian Achlais,

01/07/2009 21:40:22
162Ugly George, Damascus 01/07/2009 20:14:20
I hope you Jocks will not be too offended at a mere Sassenach sticking his oar in.

======================================

All opinions are welcome as far as I am concerned. It makes sense to get as much information and advice from as many sources as possible.

Or we could just bury our heads in the sand like the London Labour party while it buries what remains of the economy as the same time.

144

Alan B,

01/07/2009 22:07:12
#UG

I agree it would make a fundamental difference if scotland devolved power to westminster rather than the other way round.

It would turn the uk in being more like the eu where sovereign countries agree to share power.

The biggest problem with the uk is it is still far to centralised. The uk parties like labour are also far to centralised in their approach and they need to effectively federalise.

But it will all probably be too late as independence becomes the easiest way for scotland to improve it governance.
145

Electric Hermit,

01/07/2009 22:09:38
38
All Politicians are the same

"Are you saying that there would be another referendum once the terms were known?"

Of course there would. What did you imagine would happen?

146

Electric Hermit,

01/07/2009 22:12:44
41
Stan Butler

"Will they publish the details of the research?"

The "details" of the research are evident from the question. Tell us what you don't understand and I'm sure somebody will be prepared to help you.

147

Electric Hermit,

01/07/2009 22:17:02
46
mad world,

"...are we going to have endless years of the SNP spoiling to pick a fight with Westminster!"

Supposing we do. Are you going to contend that Westminster is above criticism? Good luck with that little project.

148

Electric Hermit,

01/07/2009 22:23:23
55
Nevsky

"'Tartan tories'? That term is 20 years out of date. Is everyone as out of date as you, how quaint old England is; ahh bless!"

I thought that was a wind-up from a nostalgic nationalist. Seems some of these unionist numpties haven't got themselves beyond the "good old days" of Thatcherism.

149

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

01/07/2009 23:13:47
#162 Ugly George

If it wasn't for the "endemic brain-rot" that inflicts the Labour voting masses.

The Constitutional thing would have been settled a generation ago.

Your Idea has certain Nat-busting properties that Conventional Devolution can only dream of...because it would at a stroke revoke the Second Class status enjoyed by Scots within the Union as currently constituted.

Though I doubt that Skeletor and Co would have the courage to support it, they would be forced to go along with it, as to do otherwise would appear like voting for slavery.

Once it was on the statute books, Scotland would effectively be a Nation once more and regardless of whether we chose to retrieve further powers, full powers or stick with the status quo.

It could be decided with much less acrimony and not necessarily along strict party boundaries.
150

Springburn Wullie,

Glasgow 08/09/2009 10:28:49
The "Elephant in the Room" is that the Labour party are heading for oblivion, the future for the UK is Tory, the people here have some thinking to do, an independent country or maybe 20 years under the Tory yoke. So called Scottish Labour in all this is an irrelevance, but leave the referendum until after the General Election!

 

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