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Devolution has left England in a timewarp, warn MPs

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Published Date: 25 May 2009
UK MINISTERS should come up with a comprehensive plan to address the iniquities of devolution for England, scrap the Barnett Formula and consider getting rid of the post of Scottish Secretary, an influential group of MPs claimed yesterday.
The House of Commons Justice Committee published a report warning of a serious devolution imbalance for England. The MPs said the system of government for England would have to change, but failed to agree what should take its place.

They also attacked the Barnett Formula – which allocates a set percentage of spending increases to the constituent parts of the UK – because it was unfair to England. They called for a review, but again failed to provide a clear picture of a replacement.

The posts of Scottish and Welsh Secretary should also be abolished, the committee said, and instead the UK government should consider a Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs with special responsibility for the regions.

The Justice Committee inquiry is looking at devolution ten years on, from the English perspective.

The Calman Commission is considering what changes can be made to the devolution settlement to improve the workings of the Scottish Parliament and the Holtham Commission is doing a similar job in Wales.

Justice Committee chairman Sir Alan Beith said: "Devolution has radically changed the way Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are governed and is changing the governance of the United Kingdom, but England, which has 84 per cent of the population, is the unfinished business of devolution – stuck in a pre-devolution timewarp, while the rest of the UK has moved on.

The committee said: "There is no consensus about solutions to the English question, or the range of questions which arise under that heading. Each suggested answer has its own problems and limitations."

The report condemned the Barnett Formula – in operation since the 1970s – as "no longer fit for purpose", arguing that it is "overdue for reform and lacks any basis in equity or logic".

The committee called for a UK-wide review of the formula and urged ministers to put forward an alternative system covering all the regions of the UK.

A spokeswoman for the Ministry of Justice said: "We acknowledge the significance of devolution, and are already attempting to make sure it is more fully recognised in our system of governance, and we hope that the committee's recommendations will help us take this further."

MSP Mike Russell, the SNP's minister for the constitution, said: "A far better arrangement would be to replace the post of Scottish Secretary with a system whereby the devolved administrations have a direct relationship with 10 Downing Street through the Cabinet Office."




The full article contains 448 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 24 May 2009 9:34 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Devolution
 
1

The Creature from the Black Lagoon,

24/05/2009 23:43:15
MSP Mike Russell, the SNP's minister for the constitution, said: "A far better arrangement would be to replace the post of Scottish Secretary with a system whereby the devolved administrations have a direct relationship with 10 Downing Street through the Cabinet Office."
====================================================

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Jim Murphy has the Nats running scared. They can't beat him in debate so they try to circumvent his position.

The SNP is a party of dishonour.
2

Iainbroch,

25/05/2009 00:11:37
re1

And Lieboar MPs and Hootsman hacks will fly!
3

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 25/05/2009 00:12:14
Ah Wufus the CWeta fwom the bwlack wagoon. Is that the best you can do?? In fact it was the HoC Justice Committee themselves that suggested the roel of Secretary of State for Scotland was redundant.

This is something the SNP have been saying since they took power.

As usual, Scotland leads and England follows.
4

Castaway™ ,

25/05/2009 00:13:32
The House of Commons Justice Committee - The posts of Scottish and Welsh Secretary should also be abolished.25 May 2009

Scotland Office - The Office of Secretary of State for Scotland came under further fire in February 2002 when an article in the Daily Telegraph suggested that Helen Liddell had such a light workload that she was able to work a three day week with time to spare to take French lessons at Dover House (5 February 2002).
5

,

25/05/2009 00:20:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
6

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 25/05/2009 00:21:01
"The Calman Commission is considering what changes can be made to the devolution settlement to improve the workings of the Scottish Parliament and the Holtham Commission is doing a similar job in Wales"

Er, no it's not. The Calman Commission was set up to come up with something to the SNP's plan for a referendum on Independence. It was set up by the PM's office, and it couldn't care less about the workings of Holyrood. It's only remit is to try and counter the SNP.

However, since the referendum was voted down by the unionist MSPs, after 2011 there won't be a need for one, with the SNP having a majority of Scottish MPs and Holyrood MSPs. I wonder how many of the 6 EU representatives the SNP will get
7

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 25/05/2009 00:25:35
"......an influential group of MPs claimed yesterday"

Afraid that boat sailed a long time ago.
8

Lausanne Jellies,

25/05/2009 00:46:05
Bit of ice, and a slice: Titanic - Always goes down well.
9

Lausanne Jellies,

25/05/2009 00:50:44
"It's astounding, time is fleeting
Madness takes its toll
But listen closely, not for very much longer
I've got to keep control

I remember doing the TIme Warp
Drinking those moments when
The blackness would hit me and the void would be calling
Let's do the time warp again...
Let's do the time warp again!"
10

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

25/05/2009 01:13:57
Looks increasingly like England will not have to worry her pretty little head about us Jock Subsidy Junkies, for much longer.

Opinion Poll - Mail on Sunday

Q) How would you vote if a general election were held tomorrow?

SNP - ....................32%
Labour - ................20%
Conservative - ........8%
Lib/Dem - ................8%
Green - ...................2%
Others - ..................4%
Will not Vote - ......25%

Using electoral calculus they projected only 13 seats for labour, 9 for the lib/dems, 2 for the Tories...for some inexplicable reason, they neglected to mention how many the SNP would get.

24 less than whatever the total is, A handsome majority I would imagine.
11

im brian and so is my wife,

edinburgh 25/05/2009 03:14:25
A time warp?,does this paper know for certain,"Rocky Horror" fans read it?
mind you with "Riff Raff" broon in charge,aye can just see murphy singing "Hot patootie, bless my soul, I really love that rock 'n' roll. i will put fellow scots on the dole"
yes for snouty MPs "Time is indeed fleeting",and with broon "Madness takes control"
12

,

25/05/2009 05:20:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
13

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 25/05/2009 05:39:05
It is time the people of Scotland were given the chance to put the issue of independence to bed,if they decide otherwise so be it.
14

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 25/05/2009 05:44:44
From the article:-

"the UK government should consider a Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs with special responsibility for the REGIONS."

There we have it - The choice, come the referendum:-

Remain, forever a "REGION"

OR

Become a NATION again.
15

The Kids Are Alright,

25/05/2009 05:58:42
Why is there no report on today's top story.

Darling gives his accountants a wee back hander to sort out his tax "bill", and paid for by the punters
16

The Kids Are Alright,

25/05/2009 05:59:41
Rangers were magnificant, BTW
17

Jaebee,

25/05/2009 06:49:40
and how many on that list are handing bak expenses money?

Sounds like they are trying to get a headline that sidelines their own scandal to me.
18

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 25/05/2009 07:28:52
#1:

Rufus, you're very funny - unintentionally so, but still funny! :o)
19

Russell M,

Stirling 25/05/2009 07:36:00
Aristotle believed that monarchy was the best form of government, but didn't recommend it because it ran the risk of becoming the worst form of government, a tyranny (or dictatorship). He recommended a polity (or constitutional republic) because its degenerate form (democracy) was the least harmful of the bad forms of government. Therefore I, as a citizen of a neighbouring nation, would suggest that the English hold a constitutional convention to clarify, codify and solidify their rights and privileges. What they have now, an adaptation of the Magna Carta where parliamentary sovereignty has effectively replaced both monarch and nobility, is subject to long term manipulation by the un-elected bureaucracy.
20

English Voice,

25/05/2009 07:37:07
Time warp? Nonsense. We shall Morris dance and use our powder wigged, wool sack sitting pomp of the House of Lords to get us out of this crisis!
21

English Voice,

25/05/2009 07:56:05
1. Wufus "The SNP is a party of dishonour."

Well said. Their deluge of receipts for fictional companies, unpaid tax, mistaken second homes, expensed porn, moats, duck houses and selling changes to UK laws just proves it!

New Labour - Whiter than White since 1997!
22

Hmm ...,

25/05/2009 08:05:26
Monte Cristo #12 said that according the that poll, all the other parties would have in total 24 seats.

Scotland has 59 constituencies in Westminster, see http://www.statistics.gov.uk/geography/westminster.asp

So that's 35 seats for the SNP, then.

It'll be interesting to see how voting actually pans out - and whether 25% of the electorate doesn't vote. As things stand, I would expect a much higher percentage to show their disgust with politicians by not voting, which would be a mistake - you don't clean a house by ignoring the rubbish.

If Brown has his way, though, it will be a long time before we find out, which is another reason not to vote Labour when we eventually get the chance!
23

donald,

glasgow 25/05/2009 08:22:48
What on earth has Ben Dover Hoose, London, England got to with the advancement of Scotland?
24

Bigwull,

edinburgh 25/05/2009 08:39:04
Just give us independance, control over oil revenues, control over whisky revenues, raise our own taxes and we'll be fine, but what may I ask will England have left to drain?
25

TWC,

exLabour 25/05/2009 08:48:26
1 The Creature from the Black Lagoon,

Geez Ruf you are really losing touch with reality, Morph is incapable of debate, he didn't even finish his degree. All he does is chant a prcticed Mantra over and over.
He is in hiding.
26

Salthorse,

My Hoose 25/05/2009 09:13:05
#17

I picked that up too! - "Region" how childish can you get? Grown men who clearly have not kept pace with public opinion or the political changes within Scotland.

We are a Country and soon enough we will be an Independent Country - how do ya like dem apples huh?!!!

Arrogance and greed, don't you just love being treated with such contempt.

SH
27

The Creature from the Black Lagoon,

25/05/2009 09:18:48
29 TWC,exLabour 25/05/2009 08:48:26
1 The Creature from the Black Lagoon,

Geez Ruf you are really losing touch with reality, Morph is incapable of debate, he didn't even finish his degree. All he does is chant a prcticed Mantra over and over.He is in hiding.
=================================================

I totally disagree. Jim is superb in debate. I have never seen him lose an argument yet. As for him not finishing his degree, I can't comment. But what I will say is look at the CV's of many of the MSPs at Holyrood.

Half of them could not spell University never mind attend one.
28

im brian and so is my wife,

edinburgh 25/05/2009 09:26:32
#10 yes but the thought of broon and darling in suspenders makes one shudder lol
however murphy not only looks but sounds like riff raff
oooohh Rocky
29

urchin,

25/05/2009 09:52:18
How it must irk them that educated us in their language and rules,to be shown the way forward in what it takes to be progressive.

Ain!t Susan Boyle a spark,good jock stock and full of soul.Forever Scotland .
30

James.com,

25/05/2009 09:58:24
Independence (for England ) Now!
31

The Answer,

Glasgow 25/05/2009 10:11:11
#28 wrote

"control over whisky revenues,"



Just how much whisky revenue is raised in Scotland?
32

Dokie,

Wesham 25/05/2009 10:34:00
As a born and bred Ayrshire Scot, but who has spent more than half his life in England ,I can tell you that most folks down here wish that you would get on with it. You have a Scottish Nationalist Government up there, get off your houghs and set up a referendum of the Scottish people, at home or home and abroad(up to you)and decide what you want to do.
It would certainly make your relationship with ordinary English people(I cannot speak for those weird creatures,politicians)who in most cases I have spoken to, recognise your right to self-determination. What does get up the noses of those same "ordinary people" that you insist on "tarring everybody with the same brush." The English people are not your enemy, again I cannot speak for those people of right and left, above and below the border, who have their own agenda, and it has a great deal more to do with their own power, than your freedoms.
TIME FOR ACTION!!
33

TWC,

exLabour 25/05/2009 10:34:51
Let all the Countries collect all their own revenues, Taxes, Oil & Gas Revenues etc and then give an amount proportional to their population to the Treasury for reserved issues.

What could be fairer than that.

Rufus Morph is as thick as a plank, he was reared thru the Labour political career [path which has ruined the Party. He wouldn't have lasted a minute in the party 15 years ago. SLAB need to put clear water between themselves and Westmonster and demand Fiscal Autonomy.

The Scots know how much we have been ripped off from the ALBA programme so SLAB need to be seen to stand up for Scotland.
34

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 25/05/2009 10:58:40
36

Total Scotch whisky exports broke £3billion last year

http://business.scotsman.com/Register.aspx?ReturnURL=http%3A%2F%2Fbusiness.scotsman.com%2Febusiness%2FScotch-whisky-exports-break-3bn.5250640.jp

And we have potential to increase total exports. It is only one industry of many in Scotland and an important one for the government coffers.
35

Andy Ritchie's left boot,

25/05/2009 10:58:54
Mister Creature (post 1):

I don't think Mike Russell has anything to fear from Jim murphy when it comes to debating, much as you might like it to be the case. I can see where your confision comes from though: Mike Russell is acknowledged as a great debater. Jim Murphy on the other hand is described as a master debater. At least I think that's how he was described, but I may have misheard slightly - it may have been something to do with Merchant Bankers...
36

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 25/05/2009 11:09:13
The article begins:-

"UK MINISTERS should come up with a comprehensive plan to address the iniquities of devolution for England"

"INIQUITIES"?

Just goes to prove the perception of another pompous, arrogant, "right honorable", British politician.

He regards devolution as evil.

Devolution has been hard fought. Now we have it and are trying to do what is best for our dear country - and these "honourable gentlemen" call it "iniquity".

The imposition of another country's will on its smaller neighbour is what I call "iniquity"

What will they call Independence?

I will call it, Righteous.
37

The Answer,

Glasgow 25/05/2009 11:16:10
#39

How much whisky duty/tax was raised in Scotland ?

All i'm asking for are the figures and fact's, surely you can come up with them.
38

The Answer,

Glasgow 25/05/2009 11:17:18
#39

Hint try a figure of £46 million! in the last year.
39

mr broon,

Edinburgh 25/05/2009 11:31:38
Irrespective of the devolved constitutional arrangement which already exits, should the committee's recommendations ever be accepted, and new England only legislation similar to the Government of Wales Act, Scotland Act, and St. Andrew's Agreement legislation is introduced, then the UK will have moved even closer to a truly federal State.
40

Mèths,

25/05/2009 12:05:19
Answer

Please add vodka & gin. 80% of all UK gin & vodka is made in Scotland. The value of exports of 'Made in Scotland' gin and vodka is £184M at Customs values (not the retail value).
41

mr broon,

Edinburgh 25/05/2009 12:13:58
"The Scotch Whisky Association expects exports to break the £4 billion barrier this year" (Source: The Scotsman)
42

The Answer,

Glasgow 25/05/2009 12:14:59
#45

How much whisky duty/tax is raised in scotland?

43

The Answer,

Glasgow 25/05/2009 12:16:00
#46

How much whisky duty/tax is raised in scotland?

44

,

25/05/2009 12:29:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
45

Mèths,

25/05/2009 12:54:42
Raised in Scotland? For the UK coffers? Ploughed back into Scotland? Tax? Duty? VAT?
Answer your own questions.
46

Mèths,

25/05/2009 12:59:55
Excise duty and VAT accounts for roughly 75% of the price of a bottle of whisky. Work it out. I can't be bothered.

(Remember the gin & vodka taxes while you're at it)
47

Observer,,

Glasgow 25/05/2009 13:16:25
The problem that the UK govt have here is that any measures taken to ''compensate'' England for the powers devolved to Scotland and Wales will show up the gross inequality in England's governance of herself - in favour of London and the South East, and prejudicial to the North. It's been like that since the days of Henry V111. That's the English elephant in the room - but it's none of our business really. Roll on independence then they can sort it out.
48

Sumlogic,

CRACKS 25/05/2009 13:25:59
Yes, the cracks are beginning to show in this failing almost bankrupt democracy....

Time for PROPER CHANGE through SNP and 'Independence'!
49

The Answer,

Glasgow 25/05/2009 14:36:04
Scotland some how managed to produce only 7% of the total fulltime new university undergraduates 2008, using the same 7% means the scotch produced only 7% of the scotch take of duty and tax which comes in at about £42 million quid, of course upon independence the scotch will keep the tax from scotch.

£42 million wouldn't pay the cost of one days social security bill in scotchland.
50

Mìcheal a Eilean Rùim,

Richmond 25/05/2009 14:59:33
This forum is becoming very boring. I'm bored with Rufus bouncing up and down from alias to alias squealing "See Me! See Me!" I'm bored with all all the reasons why Scotland will be a failed state unless it crawls cap in hand to Westminster. I'm bored with the petty insults; the bruised egos. I want to see some action. Slovakia and Czechoslovakia were able to wind up their association with scarcely a whimper, while all that's coming out of Scotland is enough hot air to fuel global warming. I agree that jaw, jaw is better than war, war, as Churchill remarked, but can't we have just one tank trundling down Princes' Street with the saltire flying from its turret so we expats know that something is still alive in what future generations will call The Great Scottish Gas War.
For God's sake, get off the pot and DO SOMETHING!
51

Letters From Muscat,

edinburgh 25/05/2009 15:04:33
Re the professor from Glasgow caledonian university ( school of law) is saying the MP s seemed to be blameless with their expenses nonsense, there is a difference between family allowance for children and moat cleaning, gardening costs, flat screen tvs food for goodness sake antique fireplaces and chandeliers, especially the ones who could afford to pay for them themselves, I have never read such a load of old cobblers, they were using taxpayers money, did they ever put their hands in their own pockets? Give us a break.
52

The Answer,

Glasgow 25/05/2009 15:05:43
#55

With scots male employment higher than in England, i'm sure there would be a problem manning said tank....
53

hoblar,

25/05/2009 15:18:40
How much taxation is described as being raised in SE England because what is actually called "The North Sea", is given the title "extra-regio territory" so that the coffers of the British Treasury can be filled with cash to make up for the fact that the UK Government has bankrupted britain?

If England is indeed "in a timewarp" then they should support non unionist parties, make them electorally viable, that sort of thing.

Moaning about 'Scotchland"ina very misinformed manner won't make England grow a pair of political testicles, and neither, might I add will voting for the tories who are the twin sisters of new labour.

Our export of whisky and related products would benefit us more by removing the daft idea of sending it down to a British treasury in England, and that industry is worth £Billions to Scotland.

Blended Scotch whisky exports increased by 9 per cent to £2.43bn, while bottled malt whisky exports also lifted 9 per cent, to £497 million.

Exports to North America fell by 6 per cent to £451m in 2008 and in Central and South America, they were down 2 per cent to £331m.

In Australasia, exports surged 30 per cent to £68m, and in Europe they rose by 17 per cent to £1.28bn. Africa saw a 10 per cent increase to £142m and shipments to Asia rose by 5 per cent to £598m.

Broken down by country, Americans continued to spend the most on whisky, generating £371.4m in sales, while French consumers drank more than any other nation, with 159.8 million bottles sold there."

The article then informs us that the 2p tax added by labour a few months back meant an additional 14p slapped on to a bottle of whisky, so where do the mickey mouse "figures" of the troll twosome lead then?

My advice is not to try and assert your feelings of despair about the politics of England that are absorbed by the British state by slagging off Scotland, do what I did, target the British Government instead of a pseudo grievance against England.

I like England, but I think
54

hoblar,

25/05/2009 15:22:19
I like England, but I think that the few who claim to be English here will not be the sort of people who can move forward an English political agenda, because bleating erroneously about Scotland isn't enough.

If you would like to have the 'constitution' and Britain, Scotland, England and the UK explained to you, I can provide a powerpoint lecture so that you'll learn that getting an English orientated political system requires demand....and voting unionists like labour won't provide that demand, neither will NOT having a credible political party capable of government.

So vote tory or labour and watch them laugh at you, or get off your fat bottoms-that's what i say!

Stop coming on here and bleating like big girl's blouses who got their pigtails ruined by a strong wind.......that's the job of the 'Scottish' unionists, all four of them. lol
55

The Answer,

Glasgow 25/05/2009 15:28:18
#59

How much duty and tax is raised in scotland on the sale of whisky in scotland ?

56

Westfield Bairns,

Falkirk 25/05/2009 15:38:12
I think its about time England got it's own Parliament which is only fair. Jim Murphy is basically a 3rd rate trougher and Ian Gray even worse.

The simple solution is Independence which is going to happen at some stage anyway, Englands democratic perceived void sorted
57

JaE_in_Oz,

25/05/2009 15:40:42
"Freedom is another word for nothing left to lose" but in this case as Europe's second largest nuclear power the world should start to take Scotland seriously.
Being ripped off by the English for years over oil has not helped. The bad baroness should only be hanged drawn and quartered in effigy, not in person as Wallace was.
Full independence now! The English incomers can remain as EC citizens as long as they behave themselves and leave their corruption at home.
58

Geoff,

sa 25/05/2009 15:50:53
Howyras doin?

Whatever the future holds for the United Kingdom, Sir Alan Beith is absolutely correct in his assesment that 'England is the unfinished business of devolution.' I understand the argument that English numbers dominate Westminster although as I have said before there is no such thing as an English voting bloc. What the UK needs is a proper all embracing constitutional conference where everyone is represented and all the reasonable outcomes are tabled and discussed. Initially out of this there should emerge 4 equal Parliaments with a Union Parliament at Westminster removing the ad hoc English component. Checks and balances to prevent english dominance can be built-in in the same way as they are in the USA. This would complete the devolution process properly. The work thus far has been a half baked mess. This would also largely reduce the ill feeling that the current setup engenders. THEREAFTER referendums could be held for other alternative structures including independence for the components.I think it important that the devolution process is finished first as this might largely solve the prob. Alternatively said Constitutional Conference could delay the inevitable english Parliament and test the will of the people on the whole package including the Ind ops.

Saor Britannia!
(hows my Gaelic?)
59

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 25/05/2009 16:15:24
63


Yer Gealic is cr*p. What is Swahili or Afrikans for White Colonial Rulers?

The Answer

What is it like being a one track minded racist and Anti Scot? Please let us all know as you seem very good at it.
60

TWC,

exLabour 25/05/2009 16:16:31
I hear WGS has left the Celtic
61

Eve,

Scotland 25/05/2009 16:19:00
#61 Westfield Bairns: Good point!!
62

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 25/05/2009 16:19:50
I have no particular problem with the majority of the English immigrants into this country.

Indeed, most of them are very welcome additions with much to contribute to our society, much in the same way as are Asians, Africans, Afro-Americans, Jews, Poles, “Zogs”, North and South Americans, and any other race or creed you care to mention.
(If I have missed anyone out I do apologise.)

We may well be a small nation in terms of our population, but we are big in terms of our achievements, aims, and future aspirations.

Alba gu bragh!
63

Geoff,

sa 25/05/2009 16:22:53
64 Dave from barra-your geography is cr*p.They speak swahili in East africa-several thousand kilometres from here. Also the White colonial rulers are long gone-yer history is also cr*p!
Lastly-'Whats it like being a one track minded racist and Anti scot???!? Havent a clue what yer on about Dave.
Have a lovely evening.
64

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 25/05/2009 16:27:52
Geoff

Is you on line moniker "The Answer"? If not, then yes, you won't have a clue to my last scentence.

As for your geography and white colonial rulers remark? Number one, I gave a choice of either Swahili or Afrikans and number two, While Colonial Rulers are by far not long gone.

How about you stay out of our business and go back to Kafir bashing, eh?
65

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 25/05/2009 16:28:49
65 TWC,


Quite so, however I suspect that his reason for leaving is probably unconnected to his offer of taking up the post of manager of Clyde FC.
66

Mèths,

25/05/2009 16:36:59
Geoff

Maybe Dave is a Celtic supporter and knows you're a 'Gers man.

ps for the last time - and post this in you favourites -

http://myp2p.eu/index.php?part=home

It covers all world sports. They are on live. It's free.

67

Mèths,

25/05/2009 16:37:39
Answer

You are an irritant. You post this guff with all your sign-in names.
68

Stephen_Gash,

Carlisle England 25/05/2009 16:40:51
For those of you Scots getting all huffy-puffy about Scotland being referred to as a 'region' #17 #31, here is the link http://news.parliament.uk/2009/05/report-on-devolution-and-the-governance-of-england/

And here is the quote: "Devolution has radically changed the way Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are governed and is changing the governance of the United Kingdom, but England, which has 84 per cent of the population, is the unfinished business of devolution - stuck in a pre-devolution time warp, while the rest of the UK has moved on. The funding formula is also a relic from earlier times, taking no account of the current need of the various nations and regions of the United Kingdom”.

It is only England that is scheduled for dismantling.
69

Geoff,

dsa 25/05/2009 17:03:06
71 Meths-You read my mind Meths-honestly that possibility had occured to me.
Or alternatively Dave is a gers man and is nursing a sore head from too much celebrating yesterday!! :)

thanks for the link Meths.
You're a gentleman.
70

Electric Hermit,

25/05/2009 17:11:35
73
Stephen_Gash

While the article here gives the impression that Scotland is referred to as a "region", a quick perusal of the report shows that this is a misrepresentation. The language of the report clearly differentiates between regions (of England) and the nations.

http://alturl.com/r8ew
71

Jimmy Le Pie,

25/05/2009 17:32:26
England should have their independence - quickly!
72

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 25/05/2009 17:45:50
Stephen_Gash,Carlisle England 25/05/2009 16:40:51

Let me make it simple for you.

I did not quote from the report, as you are wrongly trying to make out.

I quoted from the ARTICLE (AND STATED SO) and since you cannot take the time to read it properly I will include the rest of the paragraph:-

"The posts of Scottish and Welsh Secretary should also be abolished, the committee said, and instead the UK government should consider a Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs with special responsibility for the regions."

However since you have quoted from the report let me do the same:-

"It is clear that the role of the territorial Secretaries of State has changed beyond recognition and that it is not likely to remain central to the functioning of devolved government or to seem consistent with the logic of devolution."

The Concise Oxford Dictionary defines "Territory" as

"an organized division of a country, especially one not yet admitted to the full rights of a state"

or

"a province"

The choice of the referendum will be to remain, forever a "PROVINCE"

OR

Become a NATION again.
73

Electric Hermit,

25/05/2009 17:49:43
56
Letters From Muscat

Professor McLachlan's piece probably seems so outlandish to you because it is a rational, reasoned analysis not tainted by the ridiculous hysteria that characterises most comments on the subject.

I particularly like the bit where he addresses the hypocrisy of the hysterics.

"For instance, many who criticise MPs for pushing the allowances they claim to the limit were quite happy, in the past, to claim income tax relief on their mortgages, which were thereby subsidised by those other citizens who did not have mortgages. Many also claimed the married man's allowance. These were not fair rules. It is not too late for those who unfairly benefited to make a refund to the Treasury."

I don't necessarily agree with all his remarks. But it is good to see someone challenging the rigid orthodoxy that would have us all attend the Two Minute Hate and chant the mantra of mindless vilification like good little sheeple.
74

Phillip,

25/05/2009 17:54:47
If England is so "tired" of subsidizing Scotland, why are it's leaders so terrified of allowing Scotland independence?

The answer is obvious, let Northern Ireland, Scotland & Wales all be independent and focus English attention on just England instead of on the neighbors that it conquered and colonized so long ago.
75

Electric Hermit,

25/05/2009 17:56:53
79
Phillip

"...why are it's leaders so terrified of allowing Scotland independence?"

It is not for anyone to "allow" us independence. It is ours to take.
76

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 25/05/2009 18:09:40
There are two scenarios:-

One is that Scotland cannot survive on its own and England is stopping us going our own way out of benevolence and its desire to share its "wealth" with the poor provincials north of its borders.

The other is that Scotland would be much better off by retaining its own wealth from its own efforts and resources and may even become the "Super Rich" state as written in the "McCrone Report" which was subsequently suppressed.

Now Which scenario is the more probable? I WONDER!

77

Electric Hermit,

25/05/2009 18:13:27
81
Jo'Burg Jock

There is also the possibility that independence is worth fighting for regardless of the economic arguments. The right to self-determination is a fundamental principle which is not dependent on the "ability to pay".
78

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 25/05/2009 18:29:48
Electric Hermit,25/05/2009 18:13:27

I agree wholeheartedly.

Scotland must become a NATION again - end of debate.
79

Media at One,

25/05/2009 18:41:08
England cannot be expected to support for Scotland forever, 700 years is long enough - The union is great because it has always worked in Scotland's favour, but I will embrace the change that sees us paying our dues for a change - Independence is not worth speaking about at the moment, we need a referendum on that!
The union will probably be part and parcel of our future for a long time and it is only right that the providers in England get their equal share.
80

Jimmy Le Pie,

25/05/2009 18:53:10
Warning Warning Warning!!!!!!

Alert! Alert! Alert! - Half witted troll @ 84

81

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 25/05/2009 18:59:00
Media at One,25/05/2009 18:41:08

700 years is long enough - The union of parliaments occurred in 1707, but HEY what's 398 years.

Jimmy you're correct - Half witted troll @ 84.
82

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

25/05/2009 19:09:47
#37 Dokie,

Couldn't agree more...We have a colony of deranged, grasping, thieving, rabid monkeys on our back...but they are not English and probably never will be.

Though many may aspire to be.
83

livilion,

livingston 25/05/2009 19:30:33
#86 Jo'Burg Jock
Media at One alias Media 1 or as we all know and love him; the Village Idiot.

#82 Electric Hermit

It has been a long established diversionary tactic of the Whitehall Establishment to involve serious minded Scots in these sorts of discussions. The idea being that while dangling baubles in front of some to be bought and sold, we fall out amongst each other so that we'll tend to forget who it is we really need to be concentrating on.
Otherwise known as devide and rule.

Remember Thatcher advising us to reject the Devolution Bill because her party would then come up with a far better one?
Some mugs actually believed her and voted accordingly, proving that you can fool some of the people...

Anyone that has to ask; how much is it going to cost to run my own country? doesn't deserve one.
eg I'm sure Winston Churchill didn't stroke his chin, when Hitler invaded Poland, suck air through his teeth and point out that fighting fascism was going to be ruinously expensive, it would be cheaper and far more economicaly sensible just to fall in with them instead.
84

Electric Hermit,

25/05/2009 19:41:07
88
livilion

"It has been a long established diversionary tactic of the Whitehall Establishment to involve serious minded Scots in these sorts of discussions."

Indeed it has.

Not that economic considerations are unimportant. It is only sensible to consider the potential economic implications of any policy. But I reject entirely the premise that economic criteria are the only ones that matter - or that they should be the ultimate deciding factor.

The ultimate deciding factor is the will of the people of Scotland. All else pales into insignificance.
85

livilion,

livingston 25/05/2009 19:49:25
#37 Dokie,Wesham

Having lived and worked for some time within the M25 I know where you are coming from, however, because of the ill-informed nature of the way the subject is reported(when it is reported at all) down in your part of the world, many folks south of the border think we Scots want independence because we really don't like them very much, even though most of us have family and friends there, and that we are a bunch of ingrates because the long suffering and tollerant English have been subsidising Scotland and the Scots since the Union of the Crowns in 1603.

Of course it has served our political elite well to perpetuate these myths in order to provide convenient scapegoats and whipping boys to divert attention from their own failings.

Referendum? The way the cards are falling right know who would bet against the Scots going straight for independence come the General Election, by electing a majority of SNP mps up here?
Tony Blair got by far the lion's share of Scottish seats with only ~24% of the Scottish electorate actually voting for his Scottish candidates.
86

livilion,

livingston 25/05/2009 19:50:21
89 Electric Hermit
You said it China!
87

LL Scot,

Valais, Switzerland 25/05/2009 19:52:28
"The answer is obvious, let Northern Ireland, Scotland & Wales all be independent and focus English attention on just England instead of on the neighbors that it conquered and colonized so long ago."

England never successfully conquered Scotland although many English people (and some Scots) are under the misapprehension that they did.

1603 A Scottish King (James) became the King of Scotland & England
1707 The Scottish Parliament voted itself out of existence with the Union of the Parliaments

The only time that 'England' could claim to have successfully conquered Scotland, was during the second English civil war when the English navy, the English nobility, the English peasants, Ireland, Wales & Scotland tried to depose the English Parliament under Cromwell.

Cromwell won.

No attempt was made to absorb Scotland into England and his soldiers wandered home from Scotland a few years later.
88

livilion,

livingston 25/05/2009 20:31:32
Poor old England, eh?
Only 84% of the pie when it comes to running the country and calling the shots on what to spend the 5th largest economy in the world's revenue on?

Those greedy Scots taking 9% of the share and wanting to spend it on themselves, the ungrateful Welsh with their 6%, and what about those N.Irish taking all of the rest?

It's wonder that the streets of England are not alight with burning barricades at the iniquity of it all.
89

hoblar,

25/05/2009 21:41:53
"Having lived and worked for some time within the M25 I know where you are coming from, however, because of the ill-informed nature of the way the subject is reported(when it is reported at all) down in your part of the world, many folks south of the border think we Scots want independence because we really don't like them very much, even though most of us have family and friends there, and that we are a bunch of ingrates because the long suffering and tollerant English have been subsidising Scotland and the Scots since the Union of the Crowns in 1603."

There you go, the media and divide and rule all summed up in a paragraph by someone from sunny Livi.

The West Lothian Answer.

I have said for years that using the media to fight petty cross border 'wars' and making the English confused about their national identity by using petty minded editorials as a means to denigrate Scotland had many risks for the union ultimately.

Also, the cringing Scottish media bust their own bubble with the ridiculous Pravda campaign during the Scottish elections that both the unionists AND the media lost!

And I am right.
90

Letters From Muscat,

edinburgh 25/05/2009 22:18:03
Electric hermit Sorry I still think the prof is wrong. It is not a two minute hysteria we are talking about, it is fraudulent behaviour, which if youm or I carried it out we'd be in the clink. His article is extremely well argued, him being a prof, but I totally disagree with all the points he raises. Thank goodness the Daily Telegraph exposed the corruption, made worse because we are in the midst of e recession when people are losing their jobs and the political elite are lining their pockets, a revolution? Study France 1789.
91

Electric Hermit,

25/05/2009 22:28:37
95
Letters From Muscat

"...it is fraudulent behaviour..."

Is it? How many people have been charged? How many are even being investigated at this point?

As you would know if you had read beyond the headline, Professor McLachlan states in the very first paragraph,

"Those politicians who have broken the rules deserve to be criticised and, in some instances, prosecuted."

Perhaps you'd like to explain why you "totally disagree" with that point.
92

hoblar,

25/05/2009 23:05:12
A Scottish Labour MP has handed in a VAT receipt requesting public funding of work that has a fictitious VAT number and is claiming work was undertaken by a fictitious electricity company at a fictitious address.....

I have the utmost faith that labour are corrupt on every level of government and have proven themselves to economically incompetent to boot, and that reality didn't hit me or most people "two minutes ago" either or we'd have wasted our time voting them into the Scottish Parliament two years ago.

We didn't, and Scotland has moved on historically whereas labour have moved down the political ladder 'everywhere' not just Scotland, and that is entirely their own fault for being amateur night politicians.
93

Libertarian!,

25/05/2009 23:05:45
What our Scottish nation urgently requires more than anything else, is to have the basic right and a dignified return to a free, independent democracy that was treacherously taken from its people without their consent, almost three centuries ago.

Westminster is no less corrupt today, that it has always been, since the ill-fated enforced Union of Parliaments with no Scottish people consultation.Let England just keep on its enjoyiable "political superioity" status quo.

94

T. McCarthy,

Grangeville 26/05/2009 17:01:41
Mr.Wallace, Mr. Wallace! Paging, Sir William Wallace. Your axe is ready!
95

Evan Owen,

Welsh Wales 27/05/2009 10:22:39
I asked Number 10 to place a petition on the website asking the PM to repeal the Wales Government Acts because they have not delivered value for money for taxpayers. So far no sign of it, is that because the vote would be overwhelming from the English as well as we Welsh who sopeak English and wish to remain part of the UK without the minority of Welsh Nationalists taking over and turning the country into a no-go area for non Welsh speakers?
96

Evan Owen,

Uppergumtree 27/05/2009 13:56:38
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/welshdisassembly/

Shall I do another one for Scotland?

OK then.
97

Wide Awake,

18/07/2009 11:49:24
#96 hoblar
Right on there.

 

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