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Published Date: 16 June 2009
SIR Kenneth Calman confounded his critics yesterday by unveiling a far more radical package of changes than had been expected on the future of devolution for Scotland.
When it was announced that Dynamic Earth in Edinburgh would be the location for the report's launch, the joke was that the content would struggle to live up to the name of the launch venue.

But instead the commission proposed sweeping new powers in finance and other areas which will hand far greater control of Scotland's affairs to MSPs.

So great were the changes being proposed that it split opinion on whether it puts Scotland on "the road to independence" – as the SNP were privately crowing – or "strengthens its place in the Union" as Sir Kenneth claimed.

Sir Kenneth made it clear that the proposals to hand over much of Scotland's income tax to Holyrood was the key recommendation that would improve Holyrood's accountability.

"No longer when you vote will you just have to consider how it is proposed to spend your money, instead the political leaders will have tell you how much they want to raise from you, and what that means for services you receive," he said.

Scottish Secretary Jim Murphy said that he hoped some of the proposals would end the "rancour" and "grudge and grievance" that has defined Scottish politics in recent years.

And the areas targeted in the report – such as devolving powers on airguns, drink-drive limits, speed limits and electoral administration – appeared to be direct attempts at tackling topics where the SNP has made political capital in the past two years.

Along with this came a plea for "mutual respect" to be formally embedded in the relationship between Westminster and Holyrood, which by implication the commission acknowledged was missing from the current relationship.

The broadest grin in the room was sported by CBI Scotland director Iain McMillan, a member of the commission. He said that the proposals were a great deal for business in Scotland and underpinned the economic stability they required in the context of providing more accountability to the Scottish Parliament.

And he was quick to point out that some of the more significant changes, such as borrowing powers or new devolved taxes, would need to be agreed by the Treasury.

Most importantly he had won the battle to keep Holyrood's hands off major taxes such as corporation tax, National Insurance contributions and VAT.

The right of centre think tank Reform Scotland welcomed the changes, particularly on greater flexibility on income tax and handing over smaller taxes such as stamp duty and air passenger duty.

However, Reform Scotland chairman Ben Thomson said: "These proposals are a move in the right direction but in our view they do not go far enough.

"In our view is that the Scottish Parliament needs to have much greater power to raise its own revenue in order to enhance its financial autonomy and accountability."

One of Scotland's leading experts on tax law, Isobel d'Inverno of Edinburgh law firm Brodies, who gave evidence to the commission, said that the proposals on different PAYE tax codes represented "a new departure for Scottish and UK employers".

But she welcomed the move and the proposals for increased co-operation between the Scottish and UK parliaments and governments, "which should allow the tax system to work more effectively across the UK".

However, Mr McMillan's colleague at CBI Scotland, David Lonsdale, gave the report a guarded welcome.

"The commission's report is undoubtedly a very good and thorough piece of work," he said. "But on tax, the recommendations go further than the CBI will be able to support."

Mr Lonsdale was unsure on the cost to business of different rates north and south of the Border and uncertain over recommendations which may open the door to a local income tax replacing the council tax, which CBI Scotland opposed.

There was also speculation yesterday on how the Calman proposals will affect the rest of the UK. In particular, Wales has trying to get a similar settlement to the one Scotland has.

The proposals, which look to have been accepted by the main parties, could also raise interest in Northern Ireland's assembly.

However, pro-devolutionists did not get their own way on every aspect of Scotland's powers. The commission said that registration of health professionals and charities, as well as laws on food content and labelling and insolvency, should all be reserved again.

Eileen Maclean, of business recovery experts R3, who gave evidence to the Calman Commission asking for insolvency to be "re-reserved", said: "I am delighted.

"Its recommendations will, if put in practice, clarify a situation that causes confusion for our members and sees increasing divergence between liquidation in Scotland and England."

Rachel Grant of Brodie's who also appealed to the commission to "re-reserve" insolvency arrangements, added: "Given the commission's reference to clarity, consistency and speed, it is hoped that the UK and Scottish governments will now act quickly to implement this recommendation."

The SNP has tried to remain apart from the Calman Commission which it believes was set up by the unionist parties as a rival to its Scottish Government National Conversation.

And in the spirit of its self- imposed separation, Scotland's minister for constitutional affairs, Mike Russell, held interviews outside Dynamic Earth. He welcomed any proposals for additional responsibilities for the Scottish Parliament and government – as part of the overall powers that Scotland needs as an independent nation.

He added: "We support a number of the Calman Commission's specific recommendations – such as devolving responsibility for air weapons, drink-drive limits, and indeed the running of Scottish Parliament elections –while rejecting any suggestion of transferring any powers back to Westminster." But he attacked the refusal to assign Scotland's share of oil and tax revenues and said the report fell far short of the ideal solution of independence.


The full article contains 979 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 15 June 2009 11:42 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Devolution
 
1

,

15/06/2009 22:26:00
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2

Nevsky;,

Moscow 15/06/2009 22:43:03
Sir Kenneth can now relax in the full knowledge that he will receive his ermine robes soon and be sitting alongside Michael Martin...two truly great Scottish patriots!
3

Rasco,

16/06/2009 00:26:57
Calman says Scottish Government can Tax Plastic Bags all 3 Unionist Parties agree,can vary Income Tax but when SNP suggest LIT all hell is let loose,Inland Review would not be able to do this.Why will this Unionist crowd give us a chance to have our say in a referendum.
4

Alan B,

16/06/2009 00:34:55
The scotsman headline is ridiculous. Calman has turned out to be the damp squib that was predicted.

No devolution of the much needed corporation tax to improve the economy.

No fiscal autonomy.

No devolution of social secutity system.

No devolution of competition policy.

No freedom to join the euro if the sp supports it.


Calman simply fails to deal with the fact that westminster has failed scotland economically and has not devolved the economic tools to make a difference.

interesting to see the libs putting on a brave face when they do not agree with such little devolution of tax and already saying this is just the first stage.
5

Alan B,

16/06/2009 00:39:32

"And he was quick to point out that some of the more significant changes, such as borrowing powers or new devolved taxes, would need to be agreed by the Treasury"

So the scottish government will have to have every budget approved by the westmnster government? What a joke. We have just seen 2 yrs of Brown trying to subvert the will of the scottish government.

Brown and Darling also tried to subvert labour in scotland introducing free personal care by withholding info.

6

,

16/06/2009 00:39:57
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7

Jimmy Fae the West,

Land O' Green Ginger. 16/06/2009 00:44:45
These radical reforms of a Plastic bag tax, if london permits it, has really confounded no-one bar Iain Gray.

Democracy? Now that would be radicle! What a load of................
8

Alan B,

16/06/2009 01:08:30
Where is the devolution of transport like national rail or drug policy?

What a shambles.
9

Dr. James Wilkie,

Reykjavik, Iceland 16/06/2009 01:19:05
No doubt some of these proposals are steps in the right direction, but I don't see them slowing let alone stopping demands for further transfer of power from London. There is still so much in the UK system that remains a hangover from a bygone age. In a modern federal system, who needs a Secretary of State in parallel to an autonomous elected government? The rigor mortis of the Westminster and Whitehall grip on Scotland is very evident in these proposals, which are of course just that. We'll see to what extent they are translated into hard and fast measures. Meantime, I am still waiting for the real root and branch analysis of the governance of Scotland, starting from first principles.

10

Brianwci,

16/06/2009 01:37:37
Someone has to send Maddox and or his subs a dictionary.

Not sure if the Scottish people will see PLASTIC BAG TAXES, 20 MILE SPEED LIMITS and AIRGUN regulation as being particularly radical.....

LAUGHABLE .....but not in the least bit radical.

All this nonsense does is confirm what the SNP says about devolution. It's nowhere near enough.

Independence is the obvious answer. that's becoming clearer with each passing day.
11

Iainbroch,

16/06/2009 01:38:14
We are not confounded at all - the whole package is just another London Con. Calman is a smake oil salesman!
12

Marga,

Edinburgh 16/06/2009 02:18:15
This whole smug article, sliding from inuendo to downright insult, is imbued with the real aim of the game - party political gain. Do they not know what they sound like to ordinary people?

I thought they'd been reminded recently that political parties are there to serve the people not vice versa. It seems "no lessons have been learned". Sickening.
13

Alan B,

16/06/2009 02:45:50
Cannot see how the tax proposals will be workable and rebustable to stand the test of time and government tax changes on both sides of the border.

It looks very half baked.

It is noticable that the scotsman has decided not to give details on how it would work.

For instance it looks like the flexibility to change the standard rate has now been removed despite it being given after a specific referendum question.

So what happens if westminster change incomes tax rates at the different bands and what are the implications for scotland.

if westminster changes basic rate tax is it the 10p part scotland would have to change to keep in line or is it the other part and scotland would automatically be kept in line. Does westminster choose which bit.

My understanding is scotland would have to change to keep inline.

But it is different for say the 40% band. Which would automatially be changed. If true that is completely unworkable.

As if scotland increase income tax by 2% to keep basic rate in line with england if westminster made that change then scotland would find itself with a different top rate of tax.

It is as clear as mud at the moment.

14

Alan B,

16/06/2009 02:47:45
The income tax change is unworkable as westminster control the income tax allowance.

If westminster increase the allowance they are automatically reducing the amount of tax the 10% rate will raise.

Think brown 10% tax band and you can see what a mess of a proposal.
15

Jo Flo,

ready 16/06/2009 03:14:38
What a load of tripe
16

Champion Haggis Slayer of Fife,

London 16/06/2009 03:51:41
What a fantastic effort by Calman.

ITS A SUPERB REPORT and advances the cause of full blown independence by decades.

The next General Election will ensure the voice of the Scottish People will be heard loud and clear. Hands off Westminister.... we are going our way!
17

redcliffe62,

16/06/2009 03:58:45
calman's hands are tied, and it is the view of essentialy labour and tory peers so the outcome falls pretty much into what one would expect.
most of the key areas are not even looked at, as has been commented upon above.
radical it is not. and mad dof knows that. it is just the labour press relaease did not say that, the one he has copied verbatim.
the fib dums had better be careful as they are increasingly seen as an irrelevance and once a party becomes the 4th party in scotland they get nowhere. in many areas they will lose out to greens as well, so they need to do something radical and support the snp in some key matters or i fear they will be swallowed up.
18

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 16/06/2009 04:36:50
The Devolved "governments" of Scotland have never had the bottle to use the 3p variation. They know as we all do that any tax which would increase the burden on taxpayers would result in the party who levied it being consigned to the political dustbin.
The Holyrood party hacks are quite happy to spend our money, they wield as in Baldwin's famous phrase about the press "power without responsibility, the prerogative of the harlot throughout the ages".
Let us have a referendum with the Dalyell question included which gives us either a totally independent government of Scotland or a vote of confidence in the Union.
Devolution is the coward’s option and unworthy of the Scottish people, they should kick it into touch at the first opportunity.
Report Unsuitable
19

Earman,

Paphos 16/06/2009 05:51:23
It may be that the "Calman Commission" is a bit of a misnomer. Perhaps the "Canute Commission" would more accurately describe this rather feeble attempt by the Unionists who still remain in Scotland to somehow turn the tide that is coming to shore and that will inevitably bring Independence.

If said Unionists really believe that these "radical" proposals will "shoot the Nationalist fox".....like Devolution was supposed to, remember?......then they have no grasp at all of the aspirations of the Scottish electorate.
20

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 16/06/2009 06:04:27
Radical:

Thoroughgoing or extreme, esp. as regards change from accepted or traditional forms: a radical change in the policy of a company.

Favouring drastic political, economic, or social reforms: radical ideas; radical and anarchistic ideologues.

How does changing SVR from 3% to 10% and adding a few economically unimportant taxes like the aggregates levy equate to radical reform?

This is not radical this is tinkering at the margins.

Radical would be recognizing Scotland's right to her resource revenue.

Radical would be scrapping Barnet and having the Scottish Government raise its own taxes.

Radical would be Scotland giving the UK an allowance to cover reserved matters.

There is a lot of chatter in the Unionist Press about how this will confound the Nationalists.

Just like devolution did not kill the independence movement stone dead, this will confound no one.

It is obvious to any with a brain that Calman has shot his load, and it was a blank.
21

John S,

16/06/2009 06:32:18
After 1 year and £500,000 later the radical new proposals include handing control of drink-driving alcohol levels, speed limits, elections, airguns and nature conservation to Holyrood.
22

Colkitto,

River Clyde 16/06/2009 07:03:19
When are the people of Scotland going to be consulted about our future constitution ?
It's not abour politicians or commissions,it's about us the people, and once again we are being ignored !
23

eric,

16/06/2009 07:16:39
Radical!
24

Soosider,

Glasgow 16/06/2009 07:31:04
Having just finished reading the Calman report, I struggle to find anything radical in it. In essence its main thrust is to have the Holyrood Government set Income Tax level after the first 10p.
Firstly how will the Treasury be able to differentiate what is a Scottish Tax Payer? Was this not one of the main difficulties with LIT? that it would be too difficult and too complex to have a different rate of TAx in Scotland from the rest of the UK.
Given that Income TAx accounts for a very small proportion of the overall tax take, it is difficult to see how this would increase the accountability of the SG.
It is also noteworthy that these potential variation of Income Tax is subject to the approval of the Treasury.
Also that the none specific amount of borrowing that the SG might be allowed to make is also subject to the approval of the Treasury. It is perhaps in this that we begin to see what is meant by this commissions view of "accountability" ie accountability to Westminster.
It should also be remembered that these proposals will still have to be legislated for in Westminster and it seems very likely that it is only in some of the detail of implementation that a truer picture of the actual purpose and value of these proposals will emerge.
I have for a long time been a supporter of independence, I had been concerned that Calman would come up with some truly radical proposals such as almost full fiscal autonomy, this would I think have satisfied a significant majority of Scots, or at least would have taken decades to be tested out. I think may Scots will be disappointed at the lack lustre proposals of Calman. It will provide another step towards independence.
25

Joe Plaice,

the Nutmeg of Consolation 16/06/2009 07:38:47
The Nutmeg in this case is that these proposals have merely driven another nail into the unionist coffin. The job of the pro-independence lobby now is to get out and inform the electorate of the truth behind this report and what its real aims are, ie. fooling the Scottish electorate into thinking that they have been given significant control, when that is clearly not the case.
26

TWC,

exLabour 16/06/2009 07:44:34
This reporter is easily pleased, any good reporter would see that this is going to do the exact opposite and deliver Independence to the Nats.

I no longer trust any Labour politician; when I shake hands with one I always count my fingers afterwards.
27

BIG EYE,

Paisley 16/06/2009 08:12:30
I am a critic of Calman and feel a number of emotions however CONFOUNDED is not one of them!

Vindicated is certainly one of them I forecast it would be a hopeless alternative to Independence and it certainly is.

Anger is another one, how could any self respecting Scot agree to sell out one's own country?

Happy as well because Unionists are going to be easy meat on the hustings as they try to defend this mismash against the clarity and normality of Independence
28

Dragonlord,

16/06/2009 08:16:33
Does Westminster think we are stupid? No-one in their right minds will think this is for our benefit!
29

Florence,

Edinburgh 16/06/2009 08:29:08
I think there is a misprint in Maddox's headline. I'm sure it should read "Critics confounded by "risible" reform plans."
30

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 16/06/2009 08:30:13
It has already been said that, if accepted in full the Calman report will take up to ten years to be implemented.
Czechoslovakia managed to split into two independent countries ( the Czech Republic and the Slovak Republic ) in four months, between decision day, 26th Aug 1992 and implementation day, 1st Jan 1993.
31

Geoff,

sa 16/06/2009 08:52:09
As a Unionist, I find myself in agreement with much of the comment here today. What is needed is a UK wide Constitutional Convention involving all shades of opinion and examining,within reason all the possible outcomes. Calman represents the kind of patronising piece meal approach that has characterised Labour's ill thought out devolution process-an utter shambles! In particular,any process that excludes the Nationalists, for whatever reason, is not only bound to fail, but more likely to advance the nationalist cause further!
32

gus1940,

Edinburgh 16/06/2009 08:58:06
Headline to be accurate should read:-

"Quisling Scotsman 'journalist' says 'Critics confounded by radical reform plans' "
33

Linda,

Edinburgh 16/06/2009 09:03:30
Giving back some powers to Westminster is radical..

Scotland still has no control over fiscal policy and Labour claimed 3% Local Income Tax was too expensive and too complicated to introduce and was unfair as it let the rich off by not taxing investment income.
34

Andy Ritchie's left boot,

16/06/2009 09:03:36
This is a smoke and mirrors exercise. The income tax proposal is just the 3p variation repackaged with the figure changed to 10p. There is no chance it will be used as no-one is going to increase income tax and no-one is going to cut the Scottish budget (well, apart from Gordon Brown of course but that's because he's an incompetent rent boy). The other stuff is just inconsequential trivia, albeit things that would be dealt with by the Scottish Parliament in an independent Scotland.

Calman isn't a damp squib, it's an exxercise in fooling some of the people.

As for murphy whining on in that irritating voice of his about it being a great deal for Scotland - FFS Jim, we can see Gordon Brown pulling your strings. You really are a nauseating piece of sh!t.
35

Linda,

Edinburgh 16/06/2009 09:08:58
Maddox gives away his biased reporting with this telling phrase "And in the spirit of its self- imposed separation, Scotland's minister for constitutional affairs, Mike Russell, held interviews outside Dynamic Earth."
36

Marian,

16/06/2009 09:13:22
The Calman report is a dogs breakfast amounting to absolutely nothing for Scotland except for the ominous requirement for future Scots governments to submit their annual spending plans to Westmonster for its approval thereby disenfranchising Scots voters at a stroke.
37

noswod,

Honestas 16/06/2009 09:17:55
Aye we are all in line frae a haircut. Public expenditure doon frae £33bn a year tae £20bn, Which the economony generates. Now if ya want mair spending its jack the taxes up standard rate of 40% and high rate of 70% before NIC's. Naye maie freebie frae the SNP, car parking thats noo gan tae cost you £50. Perscriptions £15, if ya middleclas and send ya kids tae University its £15k per year fees. Thats the future and of course ya Methadrone drinkers coming in at £120m pa theres nay mair free green gooe frae youse. Economic reality being injected intae Scottish polities frae teh furst time since 1707. Live within oor means, invest frae the future, tax booze ? we canny have that. Listen we are the nation whose banks hae broken the the British ecomony and whose politicians hae been impailed on the petard O prudence.
38

mr broon,

Edinburgh 16/06/2009 09:19:25
39# Westmonster indeed!
39

,

16/06/2009 09:32:09
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40

TheDisplacedGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 16/06/2009 09:36:01
"So great were the changes being proposed that it split opinion on whether it puts Scotland on "the road to independence" – as the SNP were privately crowing – or "strengthens its place in the Union" as Sir Kenneth claimed."

LOL. Who is responsible for that nonsense? How can this strengthen Scotland's place in the union when the unionists parties yet again brand us incapable of managing our own natural resources... The fact that Gray and Goldie will happily nod in agreement with their masters is a sickening enough sight for any Scot never mind the press writing total keech day after day on the subject. Can any of the 'journalists' at the Scotsman tell us how these proposals will actually benefit Scotland? Or is this just a smoke and mirrors stunt to take the peoples mind off the real question of full independence? The benefits of independence are there for all to see. How will the Calman commission proposals benefit the future generations of Scots?

Also, why were the SNP "privately crowing" yet it was "Sir Kenneth" who "claimed".

Sick of the Scotsman...
41

,

16/06/2009 09:51:37
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42

Sedov,

16/06/2009 10:00:39
The SNP have had the rug well and truly pulled from underneath them by the Calman report which makes their programme of reforms tame by comparison.

Of course the weary willies and dismal johhnies that make up the ' brave hearts' of the SNP will be trying to pearce holes in the report with their peashooters.

We all know your scared - just smell their fear!
43

kendomacaroonbar,

Bairdsville, Argyll & Bute 16/06/2009 10:13:19
Sedov 45

With the greatest respect Sir, you need to seek professional help. Your ludicrous comments are surpassing those of a certain Iraqi Gentleman; a Mr Comical Ali.. and that takes some mother of a beating.
44

JoeMiddleton,

Edinburgh 16/06/2009 10:16:10
Aye right, a more misleading headline is hard to imagine.
45

Tom R,

16/06/2009 10:16:40
I saw Mike Russell providing the SNP's view on Calman in various television interview yesterday.

His most telling response I feel was to the nonsense of London holding on to all the North Sea oil revenues on the grounds of protecting Scotland from the volatility of the price of that resource.

You have to be insane not to recognise that Scotland has been-AND CONTINUES TO BE-ripped off by Westminster to fund their sleazy politics.
46

Miss H,

16/06/2009 10:44:58
45 You are joking aren't you Sedov? Did you read the article?

'And the areas targeted in the report – such as devolving powers on airguns, drink-drive limits, speed limits and electoral administration – appeared to be direct attempts at tackling topics where the SNP has made political capital in the past two years.'

It's the old technique of trying to beat the SNP by giving us what we want.

Long may it continue !
47

Miss H,

16/06/2009 10:48:31
18 There would be absolutely no point in using the income tax varying powers while Westminster controls the Budget. That's why no-one has used it. It's also why these supposed tax powers are a piece of nonsense.

The Scottish Parliament either has fiscal autonomy or it doesn't. And it doesn't.
48

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 16/06/2009 10:55:26
This is independence without the "in". If Westminster decides to squeeze the block grant or what's left of it, they effectively leave Scotland trying to get blood out of a stone and so we remain fully dependent on London. The true indpendence option would be attractive were it not for the SNP being socialist in all but name and so the accent remains on spend, spend, spend.
49

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 16/06/2009 10:59:58
I don't think the critics are confounded at all. The Scotsman, in its guise as The Unionist Post, along with the Unionist parties, may find that support for Calman is not as high amongst the public as it is amongst the opposition at Holyrood. It raises further questions, many of which have already begun to be raise, not only by nationalists; so, to claim that critics are confounded is nothing short of a bare-faced lie. But that's not unusual for the Scotsman.

Also, a poll in today's Scotsman suggests that the political movement in Scotland is still away from Labour and towards the SNP. I'd be surprised if Calman does anything to stop this. Calman is not like the Devolution debate; it largely took place behind closed doors. The public were rarely, if ever, involved. And rather than being the final word on the debate that was held in private by the political classes, it may begin a public debate on what is best for Scotland. Oh, and wait for the English backlash.
50

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 16/06/2009 11:19:42
If anyone believes the critics are confounded, they may find this article (recently published in the Scotsman) of interest:

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotland/Calman39s-Holyrood-tax-power-plans.5359821.jp
51

alanh,

ek 16/06/2009 11:19:50
all i can see in the above article are nu liebore sleaze and spin, north brittian dept, placemen spinning about how good it would be for everyone.
But from the few details this "news"paper has given us all his recommendations are simply ways of ensuring any minority govt can be slowed down in parliament and only shared administrations could manage to get anything done.
But for any changes to tax that the govt might want to use would have to be allowed by the big boys at westmonster
52

David MacVicar,

web 16/06/2009 11:32:59
The Scotsman: How to guide to utter nonsense in approx the first 10 words.

a)David Maddox
b)Scottish Political Correspondent
c)Kenneth Calman
d)confounded his critics

a) Its all in the name
b) British Political Correspondent for Scottish cringe.
c) Anti democratic lackey
d) Hilariously false.

53

kennyy,

16/06/2009 11:58:37
this is absolute muck. why are we putting up with this nonsense! waken up, this is a blatant attempt to oppose the national conversation set up by the scottish government. no national conversation = no calman! It takes the SNP to get in and push this along before westminster even considers the devolution arrangement.

How pathetic that the scottish media works for westminster rather than supporting scottish interests. This should be reported as the sham that it is and laughed away. As it is these recommendations will be reported as gospel and pushed through by westminster and its minority parties in edinburgh.

The proposals are a disgusting abuse of the scottish people and serve only to discredit scotland and her government going forward. what use is getting control of a portion of income tax but yet not oil revenue and corporation tax and no powers to develop business and hence income tax revenue! this is just an excuse to continue taking our oil wealth whilst giving us less in return! no party will vary income tax and westminster knows it. absolute sham and its about time scots stood up and stopped taking this abuse. why people continue to be unionist in the face of this astounds me.

54

nova albion 3,

16/06/2009 12:26:13
Please,someone give these whingeing scots their independence! There is no pleasing them,and why should we.
55

Davie08,

Edinburgh 16/06/2009 12:29:00
Hi Kimba
56

Iain Mac,

16/06/2009 12:38:52
#58 - the trouble is that the warmongering English might not be able to go it alone. Scotland has many friends in Europe. I think England may need Scotland's revenue to keep afloat it's nuke subs.
57

nova albion 3,

16/06/2009 12:43:33
59. Look chummy,from what i understand this kimba was a fat bird! Hate to burst your kimba obcession but i'm male,6ft 2in,married,1 kid and one in the oven! so, go sc'w yourself.
58

nova albion 3,

16/06/2009 12:50:37
60.TWOFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
The headquarters of the Bank of Scotland, located on the Mound in Edinburgh.

The economy of Scotland is closely linked with the rest of the United Kingdom and the wider European Economic Area. It is essentially a mixed economy. Scotland has the third largest GDP per capita of any region in the United Kingdom after the South East of England and Greater London, though it is still lower than the average of the United Kingdom as a whole. of the 10 economically strongest areas in the European Union are in England. Inner London is number 1 with a €71 338 GDP per capita (303% above EU average); Berkshire, Buckinghamshire & Oxfordshire is number 7 with a €40 937 GDP per capita (174% above EU average).Wwke up and smell the coffee mate!
59

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/06/2009 13:09:31
"Radical reform plans"???

In what way are these "reforms" radical?

In the major area of taxation there is NO INDICATION of reform, radical or otherwise.

The limited scope of the Calman recommendations on taxes are, with regard to IT, simply more of the status quo.

If the SG has no power to: change allowances, change bandings and levy IT asymetrically there is very little change from what is available now.
If the SBG is changed to accomodate IT changes, what has changed?

As to the other changes recommended, every one is a Unionist U-turn.

Air-guns - 6mths. ago, Westminster was saying that this was an impossibility!!!

LIT - 6mths. ago, both Westminster AND Holyrood Unionists were saying this was impossible, as was HMRC.

Borrowing Powers - 6mths. ago, Westminster was saying that this was impossible. However, even conceding this power, ultimate control will remain at Westminster.

As to the other recommendations, Calman has created a "back door" for Westminster to overrule Holyrood with respect to Nuclear power plants etc.

The Calman Report does nothing for fiscal accountability, and even less for the people of Scotland. It is typical NuLabour "smoke and mirrors" and should be exposed as such.

NuLabour's attitude, to Calman's recommendations, is very revealing: "It (Calman) will help fight the SNP at the GE".
60

Sumlogic,

Independence is coming 16/06/2009 13:32:12
By parcel and piecemeal it seems!

Yes more powers for the Scottish Parliament, but not enough and will not help in real terms except, maybe to create a further drive for more powers; full fiscal autonomy for future...hope its not another decade away.

Note that the 'Rich Spoils North Sea' are still off limits to the Scottish people and its government, yet Westminster and the Unionists maintain its not all that important...utter poppycock!

Its very exclusion speaks volumes about the continuing Unionist and Westminster lie!

SNP and Independence the only real way forward for the Scottish people, enough of this silly, costly hybrid… also note that the Unionist bias against Scotland lives on in the wording of reports, again making it seem as though Scotland is a scrounger off the rest of the UK!

Lies, Lies, Lies!
61

grahaminengland,

16/06/2009 13:34:28
It's a complete nonsense for policing to be devolved and not borders and immigration. Policing should go back to the Home Office as a reserved power.
62

The Master,

16/06/2009 13:35:58
These proposals reflect what moderate and sensible opinion in Scotland wants. Very few actually take the Nats's ill thought separation agenda seriously, so I very much doubt if Calman can possibly be a step on the road to that.
63

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

16/06/2009 13:37:29
For gods sake

It's Radical sa far as Westminster is concerned.

And the Nat's wouldn't be happy if they'd been given Full Independence by Calman, they'd want complete physical separation from the British Isles via a Panama Canal type affair.

You Know it's the truth!!
64

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

16/06/2009 13:39:02
Perhaps we need to get the BNP and the SNP together, they could thrash it out between them eh?
65

Sumlogic,

Scotland 16/06/2009 13:39:25
Scotland can do better without the burden of the rest of bankrupt Britain.

Time for real change!

Independence one way or the other in time!
66

Sumlogic,

Scotland 16/06/2009 13:40:58
No 69, please don’t try an associate the SNP with the BNP, Really, go and look at the policies of both before making such a stupid, moronic, jaundiced comment!

Really!
67

The Master,

16/06/2009 13:48:33
#71: the SNP and BNP are both quite clearly manifestations of Nationalism (albeit at different ends of the spectrum), whatever else one may say.
68

wullieboy,

glasgow 16/06/2009 13:50:05
the unionists have walked into a bear trap.
no matter what they do to try and stop the growth of the independence movement they will fail. they should have stuck to thier constitutional position adopted at the last Scottish Parlaimentary election. that at least would have been a principled position. they give the impression that thye do not give two hoots about the future of our nation or its people.
the cat is out of the bag and it is too late for the unionists.
69

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

16/06/2009 13:54:59
#71

I have been asking for 3 days on this BBS "Of what Ilk is the SNP?" and NOT ONE OF YOU HAS ANSWERED!!!!!

As far as I can see;

Scottish Nationalist Party = Scotland for the Scottish

British Nationalist Party = Britain for the British
(At least they include the whole of the UK)

Really!

70

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

16/06/2009 14:01:08
#71

And, if you're interested, I am Apolitical.

Party Politics is WRONG!!!
71

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/06/2009 14:24:58
#72, The Master, #74, Neal..............

Could either of you tell me who said, "British jobs for British workers!!!"?

Would either of you like to quote the SNP Draft Constitution for Scotland in respect of rights to Citizenship?

Would either/both of you like to apologise for the smears contained in your respective posts?
72

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

16/06/2009 14:44:33
#76 Frank

Nope. Mine contained no smears, just speculation. As I state, I am A-Political, just serving myself.

If, as I requested, somebody had bothered to answer my original question over the last few day i.e

"Of what Ilk is the SNP?"

I would not have had to 'rattle the cage'.

The question has STILL NOT BEEN ANSWERED!!

Would you care to apologise for the ignorance of your fellow countrymen?
73

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

16/06/2009 14:49:17
And before y'all start a'hollerin' an' screaming, I am, on the whole, in favour of Full Independence for Scotland.

At least parliament will be able to concentrate on English Issues
74

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/06/2009 14:54:38
#77, Neal............

You say that there was no smear in your comment @ 74

"Scottish National Party = Scotland for the Scottish."

That is a smear on the SNP. As proof I directed you to the SNP Draft Constitution for an Independent Scotland.

I direct you to this document, again.

When you have read it, I hope you have the grace to apologise for the gratuitous smear.
75

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/06/2009 14:56:31
#77, Neal.................

I would not be presumptious enough to aplogise for someone else.
76

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

16/06/2009 15:00:11
And you still haven't answered my original question!

Why?

Is it RED, YELLOW or BLUE?

A simple question one would think, but I AM asking it of people who STILL voted Labour in the recent elections . . .
77

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

16/06/2009 15:01:33
And if SNP doesn't = Scotland for the Scottish why do you need to be Independent?
78

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

16/06/2009 15:03:00
Well, I've gotta go but I will be back to check your answers.

Ciao X
79

Dylan fan,

Planet earth 16/06/2009 15:17:36
Of course this does not ever compare to true Independence from England. Independence even achieved will not be easy.. but there is great satisfaction in making all your own decisions, right or wrong...
This small piece of the pie...sounds very difficult and only leaves everyone wanting more....
80

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/06/2009 15:28:25
#81, Neal...............

The current political complexion of the SNP is irrelevant to Independence as, in an Independent Scotland, the people will have the right to chose whichever Party suits best their philosophy.

Currently, I believe that the SNP is a left-of-centre Party whose policies are socially aware and economically sound.
81

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/06/2009 15:39:51
#82, Neal.................

We need to be independent because the policies pursued by Westminster are preventing Scotland from developing its full potential.

The vast majority of Westminster projects are London/SE-centric based on the needs and economy of that area.

The people of Scotland, due to new technology, are becoming more, and more, aware of this and, have shown their growing disaffection ot the past two elections.

The SNP is about the people of Scotland taking responsibility for their own actions in a fashion suited to the its economic and social situation. This is not possible while Westminster has ultimate control over our finances, natural resources and much of our legislation.
82

Pavla,

Irvine 16/06/2009 15:50:19
This government have sat on their hands and constantly kicked other reviews,commissions and whatever you like to call them into the long grass.Why suddenly is there a great urgency to implement these "radical" plans within months irrespective of who wins the U.K election?Seems the English press have a different take on Calman where they see it addresses Scotland's "unfair subsidy"from the U.K.This is like taking cash from the local loan shark and never being sure what you need to repay and pretty sure of the repercussions if you don't.Funny only a few months ago different tax regimes and gun control was unworkable.I see if we do decide to vary any of the proposed taxation we need to pay for the privilege of administration.Partial fical autonomy leaves Scotland at the mercy of Westminster which obviously is the strategy, basically give the Scots a big stick to beat themselves with.
83

TheDisplacedGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 16/06/2009 15:54:23
Neal,

The SNP does not care for colour or creed. The SNP cares only about the current and future wellbeing of Scotland's citizens and thus holds the view that the best way to ensure maximum effectiveness of Government is for Scotland to become an independent nation in full control of her own natural resources, laws and economic and international policies. The SNP is all embracing and outward thinking. The SNP want to take Scotland into the wider community of nations where we have full responsibility for building relationship and negotiating terms based on our own needs.

Compare that to the dependency parties who want to keep Scotland hidden from the world - parties who would insist we hand over all our resources to a neighbour ten times our size - parties who would openly scare monger and lie to us in order that we vote against determining our own future - Scotsmen and Scotswomen who would openly declare that we are not capable of looking after ourselves or our north sea revenues. These people control through fear. These people have created huge swathes of folk caught up in their dependency culture that Scotland now has some of the most deprived areas in Europe - home to folk who think life is about leaving school and signing on forever. The deprived are programmed to continue to vote for the very people that made them downtrodden, through the threat of the Tories taking their benefits away. Thankfully though, the tide has turned and both Glasgow and North Lanarkshire (the traditional heartlands) are nearing tipping point.
84

Geomac 1,

Scotland 16/06/2009 16:03:11
Yet another distraction for the political chattering classes. Not one word about the elephant in the room - the massive debt facing public services and the urgent need to make cuts in costs. The last thing Holyrood politicians need right now is the sbility to incur even more debt. Before anyone says that the debt is a Westminster one, remember that Scotland has been spending more in the public sector than South of the border AND our councils already are smothered in debt - PFI, PPI and pension deficits.
When are we going to hear this Holyrood lot start talking about the need to cut costs and get some sanity back to this debate.
Calman is all very well but hardly the most pressing issue in the midst of a massive recession.
For those above advocating independence, jsu give a little thought to the massive level of debt which will be inherited - Scotland will not be immune - and hardly a way to guarantee a financially successful Scotland. Please don't rave about oil income - the age of "Scottish" oil is rapidly passing.
85

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/06/2009 16:31:56
#89, Geomac 1.

The future has, obviously, passed you by.

Scotland, in or out of the Union, will have to bear its share of the debt incurred by an incompetent Westminster.

This is not a revelation to proponents of Independence.

The problem we have, with remaining within the Union, is that the policies adopted, to deal with this debt, will be London/SE-centric taking little account of Scotland's needs.

Your assertion of more public spending in Scotland forgets to take into account Scotland's disproportionately higher contribution to the UK Treasury.

Scotland needs control over all its resources to address its needs; that is why we need Independence.

A pleasant spin-off of Scottish Independence would be for the people of the English regions to challenge the London/SE-centric outlook of Westminster.
86

Geomac 1,

Scotland 16/06/2009 16:46:25
#90 FM.
You state "Scotland, in or out of the Union, will have to bear its share of the debt incurred by an incompetent Westminster." Surely Scotland had a role in spending the money which caused the debt? By all accounts, in fact, Scotland spent more per head on public services!!
You further state " Scotland needs control over all its resources to address its needs; that is why we need Independence." I assume that you mean the largely depleted oil/gas when you mention "resources".
Finally, do you really believe that an independent Scotland within the EU will have control over anything? have you not observed the way that the EU is moving to control virtually every lever of power?
The control fishing, agriculture, energy, immigration, air travel - and soon to be justice.
Time to get real Frank
87

,

16/06/2009 17:00:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
88

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/06/2009 17:02:37
#91, Geomac1.

When I said "all of resources", that is, precisely, what I meant...........ALL.

You make the presumption that I support Scotland in the EU. Why would you make this presumption.

Also, there is no presumption that Scotland will necessarily remain in the EU after Independence; the people of Scotland will decide that issue, like all other issues relevant to its new Constitution.
89

Geomac 1,

Scotland 16/06/2009 17:23:26
#92 - you obviously have not heard of the concept of contructive debate - must be beyond your intelligence level?
90

Geomac 1,

Kinross 16/06/2009 17:27:10
#93 FM. It seems that you are developing your own terms for independence as opposed to the terms outlined by the SNP? They have clearly stated that we would remain within the EU - where else will they get the cash to squander on their favourite programmes? Is it not obvious that the SNP thrives on discontent and whinging - if they were fully responsible who would they have to complain about?
91

letmein,

hinterland 16/06/2009 17:30:27
Geomac, try making it constructive and I may join in, but right now you are behaving very anti Scotland. We kept Britain afloat in the 80s with our oil, and it is far from depleting or Calman would have given it to us . Before you start constructive debate start getting your facts right. Then I may waste my time in debate with you since you cant see past your unionist glasses.
SNP
92

nova albion 3,

16/06/2009 17:35:32
Calman is not,as the nats think another step towards independence! It's a another step in keeping the union together.
93

letmein,

hinterland 16/06/2009 17:41:00
nova albion you sound scared, who are you trying to convince, yourself by the look of it.
94

Edward,

16/06/2009 17:41:29
Calman Commission contrived by a lunatic and now comes up with half baked ideas
Moron Murphy keeps punting out the same old pice of rubbish about the SNP and keeps stating Oil Revenue is volatile and cant be relied on.
Well he better visit Kuwait and Dubai and tell them that andsee if they want to join a Union with England!
They guy is a gormless creep that just repeats what he is told by Lunatic Brown
Lets have full Independence and keep ALL of the revenues raised n Scotland including that from our natura resources of Oil and Gas
As for the Plastic Bags, perhaps Murphy and Brown can do us all a fvour and stick their heads in a bag and deep breath!
95

Geomac 1,

Scotland 16/06/2009 17:53:22
#96. Letmein
I have been nothing BUT constructive but you really must learn that in order to have a debate, there is usually more than one opinion. Your approach seems to be that if I, or anyone else, disagrees with you then they are not worthy of debating with - explain????
Having been born in Scotland and having lived here all my life, I am just as entitled as you to have and express my opinion!!
96

hoblar,

16/06/2009 18:26:14
Oil Revenue shares like Independence were deliberately ignored because this was not about what is best for Scotland, but an exercise to steady the ship of the union, currently and irretrievably in decidedly dodgy waters and set to run aground.

If the oil revenue was so volatile, we don't need to cite that our waters have more oil than Kuwait, rather than wonder why the uk treasury is so keen to keep ALL the tax revenues to themselves; to prop up the dire, mismanaged uk economy.

That is it in a nutshell.
97

hoblar,

16/06/2009 18:30:22
By the way, the calman headlines have ignited the Independence question rather than stifle it by being scared stiff to even mention Scottish autonomy and full fiscal responsibility....that was one debate that had the unionists pooping their pampers, but that debate is here to stay.

Having a very few tragic unionist nobrains post five dozen times comments that merely state their own blind ignorance of how a large proportion of the Scottish electorate think (and vote) is not going to change the fast train to Independence.

So thanks to calman! lol
98

Pilrig,

Livingston 16/06/2009 18:32:53
75 - you're apolitical ?
Aye, right !
99

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/06/2009 18:34:29
#95, Geomac1

As I have said, the overriding SNP position, at Independence, is that it will be for the people of Scotland to decide their Constitution.

The current SNP policy is to remain within the EU provided Scotland's interests can be safeguarded.

It is very likely that, if the Lisbon Treaty is ratified, SNP policy will change.

Please do not take SNP policy as the will of the people of Scotland; not even the SNP takes this view.
100

Mèths,

16/06/2009 18:51:56
97

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
101

Mèths,

16/06/2009 19:15:14
Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!

Shut yer gub.
102

puskas,

East kilbride 16/06/2009 19:47:58
No106...

Is buckfast your tonic...

Oil in Scottish waters has barely been touched...

North - East - West....
103

karin Mac,

16/06/2009 20:14:21
so given that the unionits are saying that no referendum is required does this mean that if we get a majority of snp MPs in the westminster elections then no referendum on independence is required.
104

Richard,

West Llothian 16/06/2009 20:34:30

karin Mac,

"so given that the unionits are saying that no referendum is required does this mean that if we get a majority of snp MPs in the westminster elections then no referendum on independence is required."

Yes.

Unionists have been saying this at every general election I can remember and I can remember quite a few.
105

hoblar,

16/06/2009 21:08:58
Let Celine, the troll multi poster with the kak joke of a blog rejoice..........Devine denied candidacy in general election

Embra Evening News

Published Date: 16 June 2009
LOTHIANS MP Jim Devine, who was accused of submitting an improper bill for the wiring of his flat, was tonight deselected by the party's "star chamber" endorsements panel.
Mr Devine, the Labour MP for Livingston, was told that he had been barred from standing as a Labour candidate at the next general election.
A party spokesman said: "After considering in detail the case of Jim Devine and speaking to him, the Labour PADVERTISEMENT

arty's special NEC (national executive committee) endorsements panel today unanimously recommended rescinding his endorsement as a Labour candidate.
"He will not be able to stand as a Labour candidate in any constituency at the next general election."
"The organisation committee of the Labour Party's NEC agreed with the panel's recommendations and a new prospective parliamentary candidate will be selected as soon as possible.
"As both Gordon Brown and the national executive committee have made clear the Labour Party demands the very highest standard of its MPs."
Mr Devine was alleged to have submitted a claim for £2,157 for rewiring his London flat based on a receipt bearing a bogus VAT number and the name of a non-existent firm.
He also faced questions over a £2,326 claim for shelving work said to have been carried out by the landlord of his local pub.
The MP denied any wrongdoing."

And, like the rest of us, nobody believed a word from Devine.

By election in Livi will happen because believe me the voters are far from happy with devine before all his rip off claims on our taxes and bumbling buffoonery replies to what was a political joke to begin with.


106

,

16/06/2009 21:14:12
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
107

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/06/2009 21:46:12
#106 & 110, Hagard Celine.

Is you name James Callaghan?

It just seems to me that I hard this stuff in the 60/70s.

Maybe your name's Foulkes because I've heard the same recently.

Unfortunately for you, all your "mythbusting" figures have been contradicted by, production since 1967 and oil industry spokespeople in the very recent past.
108

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 16/06/2009 23:59:34
Lord Michael Forsyth didn't sound very confounded on Newsnight Scotland tonight. He called Calman a motorway to separatism (or some such thing). Not all the Unionists are singing from the same songbook.
109

Canny Mann,

17/06/2009 00:54:43
My understanding of this Calman commision and the scheme to 'Permit' scotlands government to control income tax in the range of 20%.
Of this total income, 10% or (50% of the total) must be given to 'Westminster'. England maintains thier greedy grip on the lions share of the moneys raised in scotland.
The remaining half of the 10% can be raised or lowered by the scottish executive.

By my reconing, there are a couple of blind alleys here. eg,

1. If the Holyrood reduce taxation, scotland raises less for itself, obviously there is less money available to spend. RESULT: Scotland and its people have less therefore are poorer. EQUATES to 'Devolution doesnt work for scotland' as scots get POORER.

2. If Holyrood maintain the same level of taxation, then the same level of income is raised. RESULT: scotland remains taxed to the same level as it would have been, if taxed directly from westminster. EQUATES to 'Devolution doesnt work, as nothing changes, so why have devolution?.

3. If Holyrood raises taxes above westminster levels, then moneys raised would increase in scottish coffers. RESULT: Though there is increased capital for grandiose government projects(New Forth Road Bridge/Edinburgh Trams), the people get Poorer(possibly an attempt by westminster to influence the return of tolls on PUBLIC funded bridges). EQUATES to 'Devolution' doesnt work as westminster can demonstrate the higher rate of taxation in scotland with little or NO effective increase in productivity or increase in general well being of the people. If you live in scotland you get POORER.

Therefore I would have to suggest that dribs and drabs trickle down devolution DOES NOT WORK.

Only FULL FISCAL AUTONOMY can work. If Scotland voted for devolution in 1997 then the people should have it, it is after all 2009 now.

110

Canny Mann,

17/06/2009 00:54:57

Continued...
If devolution is withdrawn by westminster, they will have insurrection on the streets, as even the main stream party supporters, who hold home rule sympathies are swung violently towards the realisation that westminster "Talks with a forked tongue" in support of ALL the nationalsts who wish a declaration of independance. The ONLY routes towards having a say in what happens in scotland is for the Scottish electorate to vote SNP and DEMAND FULL FISCAL AUTONOMY through FULL DEVOLUTION or through voting SNP and DECLARING INDEPENDANCE.

I deny westminster the right to smash and grab.(smash scotlands will to self determination and grabbing the Nations natural resources.

Vote SNP and give scotland a fighting chance. We the people of today must preserve scotland for our grandchildren and thier grandchildren and ALL of thier tomorrows.
The SNP are the ONLY political party who are willing to give the scottish electorate a referendum to decide whether they would wish:-

1. Independance and leaving the union (no more giving money to our bigger neighbour).

2. Full Devolution, full fiscal autonomy, where the scottish electorate would have a tax levied against them to be in the uk.(defence, imigration, coastal security etc).

3. Status quo, no change to current agreemnts. Region of the uk, invisible to europe, unencumbered by need to generate money from Oil, gas, water, electricity etc as uk government will give scotland a grant to get by. Scottish soldiers will be available to fight in illegal wars and scotland will be the dumping ground for nuclear waste and "Son of Trident" will be based 20 miles from scotlands largest city. (very comforting to the unionists in scotland)

Alba gu brath...
111

plord,

edinburgh 17/06/2009 09:57:49
Just read the report. The only radical part is that having decided how we would like to spend the money the Westminster Gov. give us, we then have to get their approval. This is an obvious 2 fingers at the SP.
no mention of extra-regio resources or as I prefer our oil & gas

 

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